NBA's Top 10 Cornerstones

[monosylab1k]

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/tag/NBACornerstones/

1. Kobe :rolleyes
2. LeBron
3. Wade
4. Duncan
5. Carmelo
6. Nash
7. Arenas
8. Dwight Howard
9. Oden
10. Chris Paul

Summer of Answers: Why KG and Dirk Aren't Top 10 Cornerstones

With any list, there are tough choices to be made. In compiling our NBA Cornerstones countdown, we were forced to cut many worthy players. To make the Summer of Answers go down easier, we will now explain how and why some of these omissions occurred.

Kevin Garnett: For starters, KG is one of my favorite players in the league, no question. Why did we leave him off the list? Quite simply, I don't think anyone--and that includes you, feisty readers--knows how to make Garnett the center of a system or functional roster. Granted, Kevin McHale is incompetent, but Danny Ainge piling superstars atop him isn't a solution. That's called a lucky shortcut, and it's kind of the opposite of "building a team."

Garnett is a fantastic talent, but he's getting on in years, has taken one big shot in his career, and just doesn't lend himself to easy answers. While it's become a Simmons-fueled cliche to call KG "the league's greatest second banana," Garnett seems to make the most sense as an upgraded Shawn Marion, or the rightful heir to Scottie Pippen. If you don't believe me, look no further than the patchwork Wolves team that made the Western Finals. It worked only because there were two ballsy vets around to step in and take charge.

Dirk Nowitzki: This one is a lot easier. This past spring had a major effect on the way I view Dirk. His MVP was great and all, but the Warriors series exposed a lot of Nowitzki's weaknesses. My selection of Melo galled a lot of readers; I know that Anthony has his problems, but he's younger, and when it comes to offense, has an iron will where Dirk is fickle. It's also worth noting that Nowitzki has now been the centerpiece of two very different teams--neither of which suffered for a lack of depth--and both have lacked that final step of determination. In fact, he was at his best when Dallas was a more balanced Big Three team. Alongside Steve Nash and Michael Finley, Dirk could put in work without being asked to do it all.

[Mister Sinister]

I take issue with LBJ and D-Wade being ranked higher than Timmy (Cue Spurs homer comments). Assuming it's Timmy in '97 or, you know, pre-plantar fasciitis, I'd take him over anyone. I'd take him over Kobe because of TD's personality (Cue Or lack thereof comments), but, eh.

[monosylab1k]

Duncan has to be #1 without any debate. After that, IMO it's Lebron second and then Kobe.

[Mister Sinister]

I'd take CP3 and Howard off that list and throw Dirk and KG in in their place.

[DarkReign]

Agreed. Duncan is so overlooked and underrated, its sickening.

3 Ships, loads of playoff games, a killer instinct in big games, will rip anyone on the team a new ass before, during and after a game...oh yeah, heckuva nice guy too.

Not good, but Great defender. Excellent offensive game either with his back to the basket, or facing up. Hustles, doesnt take plays off.

What the fuck more do people need?

[DarkReign]

Yeah, so he included Oden.

Thats all I should have read before posting anything.

[L.I.T]

More hard-hitting and insightful sports journalism from AOL.

[Mister Sinister]

More bullshitting and inane sports journalism from AOL.
FIFY ^_~ (And yes, I caught the sarcasm.)

[JamStone]

I take issue with Gilbert Arenas more than anyone else. He's one of the more exciting players to watch. He has amazing talent. But, he's not a cornerstone or franchise type player. He's a healthier and younger Baron Davis. He's going to put up a lot of points and get his share of assists, but he doesn't manage a game, control tempo, play defense, or inspire as a leader. Being a great talent and hitting a few game winning shots doesn't make you a franchise player. Ask Steve Francis.

[MrChug]

www.m-w.com

a basic element : FOUNDATION <a cornerstone of foreign policy>

Meaning something you BUILD AROUND. We BUILT around Timmy...the Lakers haven't build $h!t, and DWade came as the supplemental element surrounding Snaq. Lebron I can't argue with but to put those 2 above TimmyD is ludicrous. :nope

[Oh, Gee!!]

I think you take a big man like T.D. before anyone else to build a team around. I like the top 3 guys, but IMHO you build around a big man when one is available (Portland passing on MJ for Bowie being the obvious exception to my rule).

[JamStone]

Oh yeah, and where's Yao Ming???? They list guys like Dwight Howard and Chris Paul and Gilbert Arenas, but they don't list Yao Ming?

[K-State Spur]

Agreed. Duncan is so overlooked and underrated, its sickening.

3 Ships, loads of playoff games, a killer instinct in big games, will rip anyone on the team a new ass before, during and after a game...oh yeah, heckuva nice guy too.

Not good, but Great defender. Excellent offensive game either with his back to the basket, or facing up. Hustles, doesnt take plays off.

What the fuck more do people need?

3?

[JamStone]

He probably wasn't counting 1999. :p:

[duncan228]

Here's the Duncan piece. I posted just this one in the Spurs forum a few days ago.

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007...st-cornerstone/

The Summer of Answers: Tim Duncan is the 4th Biggest Cornerstone
by Tom Ziller

The Summer of Answers takes on every NBA question you've ever wanted to ask ... such as, "Which player would you build a franchise around?"

You could make a 'Tim Duncan for MVP' case every season this decade. (He has two such trophies.) Not only has The Big Fundamental made the playoffs every season of his career, he's been the Spurs' best player on both ends of the floor every single campaign. Ten seasons of hard work, four rings, three Finals MVPs. This dude craps gold. But, as you may have heard... he's kind-of a dork. Dorks don't sell merchandise, unfortunately. But does it matter?

Pros: There really isn't a whole lot to say here. The definition of double-double. (Well, one of the definitions of double-double.) One season he dropped below 20 points per game; another season he slipped under 11 rebounds. He's dependable, playing 95% of his possible 788 regular season games. And he's averaged almost 38 minutes a game -- a lot of time for a big. He's the best post defender since Bill Russell. (Eight all-defense first team nods.) And the whole 'consummate pro, coachable superstar, incredible teammate, devoid of visible ego' thing.

Cons: Screw jersey hucksters. There's only one thing keeping Duncan this far off the peak of this list: He's 31 years old. He's racked up 33,000 minutes including the postseason. But again: He's been healthy. Even in the past two years, as he's assumedly aged -- he only missed four games. Duncan's probably good for seven more seasons, and he'll probably start dropping off within three. That assures better current options to build a longterm contender, sadly. But be discerning in choosing just any old 'next great hope' or risk watching TD and his Spurs sip some more Krug.

Final Verdict: No candidates have the pedigree as a franchise anchor... but a few are younger, and the age/potential combination boosts them above Big Fun. (No worries: Duncan wouldn't care, anyway.) Duncan could very well be the most underrated GOAT candidate of all time. The MUGOAT? Sounds like something from the D&D Monster Manual... which would probably suit TD just fine, actually.

[DOMINATOR]

nice to see a guy thats never played a game in the NBA ahead of Yao/dirk/KG.

[Thunder Dan]

I take issue with LBJ and D-Wade being ranked higher than Timmy (Cue Spurs homer comments). Assuming it's Timmy in '97 or, you know, pre-plantar fasciitis, I'd take him over anyone. I'd take him over Kobe because of TD's personality (Cue Or lack thereof comments), but, eh.


Lebron should be 1 or 2. I mean if you take him off that team not only will fans not come and watch them, but the team will be unwatchable. You saw in the Finals how the basically everyone on the team is trash other than LBJ

[mbass]

Duncan has to be #1 without any debate. After that, IMO it's Lebron second and then Kobe.

Agreed - I would NOT pick Kobe. Duncan is not #1 because of his age only -

[Rip-Hamilton32]

replace dwight howard with chris bosh

[mbass]

Lebron should be 1 or 2. I mean if you take him off that team not only will fans not come and watch them, but the team will be unwatchable. You saw in the Finals how the basically everyone on the team is trash other than LBJ


It's a toss-up between Lebron and Timmy - and based on age only. If age was not a factor I would take Timmy, absolutely. But both are the players of their respective decade (give or take a few years).

[mavs>spurs2]

www.m-w.com

a basic element : FOUNDATION <a cornerstone of foreign policy>

Meaning something you BUILD AROUND. We BUILT around Timmy...the Lakers haven't build $h!t, and DWade came as the supplemental element surrounding Snaq. Lebron I can't argue with but to put those 2 above TimmyD is ludicrous. :nope

Just because the Lakers haven't built around Kobe doesn't mean that he's not a good player to build around. Lakers front office sucks.

[tlongII]

Oden will be at the top of that list within 3 years.

[Reggie Miller]

Yeah, so he included Oden.

Thats all I should have read before posting anything.

For that reason, I also should probably abstain, but...

Two of the top three players on the list (none of whom should be listed aobve TD in terms of actual accomplishments) have only won championships with Shaq, yet Shaq isn't even mentioned in the "guys we left out" section. Yes, he's old, he's a fat dinosaur, and he has one of the few remaining bloated old CBA contracts. You still have to mention him, even if only to explain that's why he's no longer top ten.

Oden, who has never played a regulation minute and may even have health issues, is in the Top 10, however.

:pctoss

[PM5K]

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[ObiwanGinobili]

Agreed. Duncan is so overlooked and underrated, its sickening.

3 Ships, loads of playoff games, a killer instinct in big games, will rip anyone on the team a new ass before, during and after a game...oh yeah, heckuva nice guy too.

Not good, but Great defender. Excellent offensive game either with his back to the basket, or facing up. Hustles, doesnt take plays off.

What the fuck more do people need?


yeah that ^^^^


to me tho, it is not only the amount that duncan is underrated, but the amount that Kobe is overrated.
yes. He is talented, unbelievably so. But it is all wasted, IMO.
Talent alone will not get you to the finish line. Humility and strength of character... teamwork.... unselfishness.

When will people give up the ghost on Kobe and stop proping him up to be the Alpha and Omega of basketball?

[JamStone]

Kobe Bryant is the best basketball player in the world.

He doesn't win MOSTLY because of the cast around him. Not because he isn't humble or he doesn't have a strength of character. Was Michael Jordan humble? Did he have great character?

Just like any great superstar, if they are surrounded by complimentary talent and have good coaching, they will have success. There's no denying that Tim Duncan is one of the greatest players ever to play the game. He's a great winner and a leader on the court. And, he very much seems like a great guy.

Give Kobe the right pieces around him, and he would change the way he plays. You can even see it on Team USA when in several of the earlier games, he was fine with Carmelo and LeBron getting much of the scoring opportunities while he dug in and played all out defense.

Kobe is the best basketball player in the league, on the planet. That alone justifies him as being one of the top cornerstone / franchise players in the league.

I'm not saying Duncan should not be ahead of him. I don't have a problem with that. I'm just saying there shouldn't be a problem if Kobe is considered number 1 either.

[mardigan]

Oh yeah, and where's Yao Ming???? They list guys like Dwight Howard and Chris Paul and Gilbert Arenas, but they don't list Yao Ming?
I think thats a glaring ommision as well, Yao is severely underated in this league, he has become the most dominate center in the game by far

[tlongII]

Kobe Bryant is the best basketball player in the world.

He doesn't win MOSTLY because of the cast around him. Not because he isn't humble or he doesn't have a strength of character. Was Michael Jordan humble? Did he have great character?

Just like any great superstar, if they are surrounded by complimentary talent and have good coaching, they will have success. There's no denying that Tim Duncan is one of the greatest players ever to play the game. He's a great winner and a leader on the court. And, he very much seems like a great guy.

Give Kobe the right pieces around him, and he would change the way he plays. You can even see it on Team USA when in several of the earlier games, he was fine with Carmelo and LeBron getting much of the scoring opportunities while he dug in and played all out defense.

Kobe is the best basketball player in the league, on the planet. That alone justifies him as being one of the top cornerstone / franchise players in the league.

I'm not saying Duncan should not be ahead of him. I don't have a problem with that. I'm just saying there shouldn't be a problem if Kobe is considered number 1 either.


Good post. Kobe is great, there's no denying that. IMO, the best player in the world is LeBron though.

[Medvedenko]

The list is arbitrary really......it's based on age and potential.....

1. TD (Can't knock him, even though you put him with the likes of Smush, Walton, Odom and Brown...you can kiss the #1 rating goodbye)
2. Kobe
2b: Lebron (he's really impressed me during the USA games)
3. Wade
the rest....it doesn't matter. A team wins championships, role players to superstars....and the rest of the HO has to be aligned for a ring to be secured.

Oh and Tlong...The best player in the world should bring it on both sides of the court.

[DOMINATOR]

Give Kobe the right pieces around him, and he would change the way he plays. You can even see it on Team USA when in several of the earlier games, he was fine with Carmelo and LeBron getting much of the scoring opportunities while he dug in and played all out defense.

Kobe is the best basketball player in the league, on the planet. That alone justifies him as being one of the top cornerstone / franchise players in the league.
i agree good players like passing to other good players. good players dont like passing to scrubs like ronnie turiaf etc...

[monosylab1k]

The best player in the world should bring it on both sides of the court.
The best player in the world should also be able to nut up and lead his team no matter what. The best player in the world shouldn't tank in a game 7 just to prove a point.

Kobe is the most talented player in the world. He is NOT the best.

[B and P Cats]

1)I would put Kobe and Duncan as co-first place cornerstones. Both are great and help their teams considerably.

3)LeBron - Cavs are almost nothing without him

4)Carmelo - great cornerstone for any team

5)Dirk - I don't know how you cannot include this guy. He gets a bad rap because he is the Mav's best player, and there is almost no one else to score for him when other teams double and triple team him. When that happens Mavs usually lose. It happened with Golden State and Miami. Only other really tough guy on the team is Stackhouse and he doesn't always play

6)KG - They attempted to build a team around him in Minnesota and now they are doing the same thing in Boston. He may have the right players around him this time and will do the great work we all think he can.

7)Steve Nash - There are no two ways about the fact that the Suns got better when Nash arrived, so I am including him.

8)Arenas - He's a great player and fun to watch

9)Shaq and Wade - I include them together because they only play their best when they play together. Wade cannot win games when Shaq is not playing and vice versa. It takes them both together. Same thing was true when Shaq was in LA. Only it was Kobe then.

10)CP3 - He should be a good cornerstone for the Hornets in a year or two

[SpursIndonesia]

Hmm, league cornerstones, let's see:

1. LBJ -the league needs hype, and he's the best provider, while also having the substance to boot
2. Duncan -league MDE on both side of the court at the moment
3. Kobe Bryant -most exciting player of the league today
4. Steve Nash -he makes Barbosa looks good, nuff said
5. Garnett -has the opportunity to proove and redeem himself this season
6. Billups -nuts of steel, should bounce back this coming season
7. Nowitzki -should play with a skirts, but still one the hardest matchup in the game -Spurs fans should know better
8. Yao Ming -the calm giant is coming into his own
9. Wade -if championship Wade shows up this coming season, watch out !
10. Deron Williams -i'll take him over CP3 any day of the week

[Findog]

Duncan has to be #1 without any debate. After that, IMO it's Lebron second and then Kobe.

Duncan is the best big in the game. Kobe is the best wing/guard. The problem with their cornerstone series is that they couldn't even keep the criteria straight, or just what kind of list they were compiling. I'd rather have a 23-yr-old LeBron than a 31-yr-old Tim Duncan if I put on my GM cap. But I'm putting together a team for the upcoming 07-08 season, Duncan is the #1 guy without question. The whole list is stupid, which isn't surprising anytime you get Shoals involved. God that guy sucks.

[Johnny RIngo]

Why the hell's Nash on the list? He's gotta be the most fucking overrated player in the NBA. He tainted the MVP award when he undeservedly stole Shaq and Kobe's MVPs, never won a conference title, can't play defense at all,etc. If you replaced Stevie boy with Jason Kidd/Deron William/Chris Paul the S0ns would become a much better team.

Dirk should be on the list ahead of the likes of Nash and Arenas.

[tlongII]

Why the hell's Nash on the list? He's gotta be the most fucking overrated player in the NBA. He tainted the MVP award when he undeservedly stole Shaq and Kobe's MVPs, never won a conference title, can't play defense at all,etc. If you replaced Stevie boy with Jason Kidd/Deron William/Chris Paul the S0ns would become a much better team.

Dirk should be on the list ahead of the likes of Nash and Arenas.

Nash is the best PG in the league and it's not even close. He would have a championship ring as well if the refs/league didn't screw over Phoenix in the playoffs last year.

[Findog]

Nash is the best PG in the league and it's not even close. He would have a championship ring as well if the refs/league didn't screw over Phoenix in the playoffs last year.

Jason Kidd is better than Nash, even to this day. You have to play on both ends of the court. The only thing Nash has over him is outside shooting.

[tlongII]

Jason Kidd is better than Nash, even to this day. You have to play on both ends of the court. The only thing Nash has over him is outside shooting.

That's ridiculous. Nash is much better than Kidd. He shoots much better and he see the court better.

[Findog]

That's ridiculous. Nash is much better than Kidd. He shoots much better and he see the court better.

He is a better outside shooter, like I said in my previous post, but Kidd has him beat by miles on defense (that's half the game), and no, they are even when it comes to court vision.

[Johnny RIngo]

Nash is the best PG in the league and it's not even close.

You must be one of those idiot casual fans that believes everything ESPN and the announcers tell them. Nash is the same above-average point guard he was 3 years ago. The only thing that's changed is the system. Kidd is a lot more versatile(he doesn't need a gimmick offense to be effective like Nash), better defender, rebounder, has just as good court vision. Besides shooting he can do everything better than Nash. It's ridiculous to see idiots like you place Nash on a pedestal when he's only been playing great basketball for the last 3 years. Give Jason Kidd the same teammates and he'll do a hell of a lot more than Nash.


He would have a championship ring as well if the refs/league didn't screw over Phoenix in the playoffs last year.

Phoenix screwed Phoenix last year.

[Dirk Nowitzki]

Kidd is up there but I would still take Nash over him. Nash made his team a title contender in a tougher conference while Kidd's team isnt even elite in the shitty East. Nash may be a shitty defender, but his overall leadership is better than Kidds.

[resistanze]

If I wanted to make the ultimate point guard in today's NBA, I'd take Nash's perimeter shooting combined with everything else Jason Kidd's.

[Johnny RIngo]

If I wanted to make the ultimate point guard in today's NBA, I'd take Nash's perimeter shooting combined with everything else Jason Kidd's.

Exactly. The only thing Nash does better than Kidd is shooting and flopping. Besides that, Kidd has him beat in every other area.

[yourcheatinheart]

Exactly. The only thing Nash does better than Kidd is shooting and flopping. Besides that, Kidd has him beat in every other area.


too bad if you weren't such a piece of shit homer you might garner some merit.

[Findog]

too bad if you weren't such a piece of shit homer you might garner some merit.

Nash is a better outside shooter, they are even in court vision, ballhandling, passing, scoring around the basket, but Kidd is a much better defender. Kidd > Nash, only a Suns homer would insist otherwise.

[yourcheatinheart]

seeing that jason kidd's shooting is just about as bad as steve's defense, i'd say they are more equal than anything else.

[monosylab1k]

seeing that jason kidd's shooting is just about as bad as steve's defense, i'd say they are more equal than anything else.
jason kidd's shooting isn't even that terrible.

nash's defense is more akin to shaq trying to be a perimeter player and jacking up 3-pointers.

[Findog]

seeing that jason kidd's shooting is just about as bad as steve's defense, i'd say they are more equal than anything else.

Jason Kidd is an elite player despite having an inconsistent outside shot. Defense is more important than outside shooting. He can still have a huge impact on a game without scoring a lot of points or hitting a bunch of jumpers. Against elite teams, Steve Nash gives up as much as he gets against the likes of Tony Parker, etc.

[tlongII]

The Spurs homers are out in force in this thread! Nash is so much better than Kidd it's ridiculous. Kidd can't shoot! Has anybody looked at the Suns record when Nash isn't playing? Didn't think so...

[Findog]

The Spurs homers are out in force in this thread! Nash is so much better than Kidd it's ridiculous. Kidd can't shoot! Has anybody looked at the Suns record when Nash isn't playing? Didn't think so...

I love Nash, he's one of my all-time favorite players, I mourned when he left Dallas. I'm no Spurs homer. Put Kidd back on the Suns and they're just as good, in fact, they're probably better, since that gives them 3 good defenders in their starting lineup instead of a matador at the PG position. Think about it, they have Raja Bell and Shawn Marion in their starting five and they STILL suck on defense, and I'm not talking about points per game because of the increased # of possessions, their defensive effenciency sucks and they can't get stops in the halfcourt against elite teams like San Antonio and Dallas. D'Antoni doesn't make it a priority and his quarterback couldn't guard an empty gym. Doesn't much matter against Milwaukee or Charlotte, but Kidd's outside shooting isn't nearly as much of a liability as Nash's defense.

Mr. Two-Time-MVP left Dallas and they got better without him, you might as well rename the Ewing Theory the Nash Theory. People don't seem to understand that Phoenix and their collection of players is a better fit for his skillset than Dallas was. With us, he just played the two-man game with Dirk and set up a bunch of jump shooters for open looks from the perimeter. With Phoenix, they fastbreak much more and he's setting up Amare and Marion for easy dunks and layups, those guys run the floor much better than Finley and Dirk. He makes them better but they make him better too. He's pretty much the same player he was in Dallas, a bit better, but not much. Kidd took the New Jersey fuckin' Nets to the Finals twice.

[mardigan]

13 points
9 assists
8 rebounds (btw, what point guards average 8 boards a game?)
2 steals
Per game
12 triple doubles
If you stop nash from scoring, he's not as effective.
If you stop Kidd from scoring (which isnt that hard), he's just as effective

[mavs>spurs2]

Kidd is so underrated its ridiculous. The guy is a top 3 ALL TIME pg, yea I said it, second to only Magic and Oscar Robertson. His court vision, ball handling, passing, and just all around ability to make his teammates better is just off the charts. If you put Kidd on the Suns in place of Nash, you have a dynasty instead of a perrenial 2nd round team.

[Medvedenko]

I love Nash and I love Kidd...however both in their primes I would choose Kidd. Still, Kidd has VC, Jefferson and some decent talent albeit injured in the Leastern conference and can't dominate.

[da_suns_fan__]

Does the jealousy of the Suns keep Texas awake at nights?

Kidd isn't nearly as good as Nash. Ive seen both in their primes for years. Im not going to even bother arguing about this. If you really believe that Kidd, at any point in his career, could do what Nash does now, then youre blinded by your jealousy.

That is all.

[mavs>spurs2]

Does the jealousy of the Suns keep Texas awake at nights?

Kidd isn't nearly as good as Nash. Ive seen both in their primes for years. Im not going to even bother arguing about this. If you really believe that Kidd, at any point in his career, could do what Nash does now, then youre blinded by your jealousy.

That is all.

Honestly when you saw Kidd play in Phoenix he didn't have half the team Nash has to work with now. Kidd + Amare, not to mention Barbosa, Diaw, Marion, would be deadly. And having Kidd would eliminate half of the defensive problems by itself.

[da_suns_fan__]

Honestly when you saw Kidd play in Phoenix he didn't have half the team Nash has to work with now. Kidd + Amare, not to mention Barbosa, Diaw, Marion, would be deadly. And having Kidd would eliminate half of the defensive problems by itself.


Shawn Marion, Antonio McDyess (nearly identical to Amare before surgery), Rex Chapman, Kevin Johnson, Penny Hardaway (for a while he was decent for Phoenix), Rodney Rogers, Cliff Robinson, Tom Googliota (before knee surgery), Danny Manning, Mario Elie, Tony Delk.

During the late ninetees/early 2000s, the Suns were second in terms of depth only to Portland. Kidd produced a single playoff series victory and that was to a Duncan-less Spurs and Kidd only played one game in that series.

[mavs>spurs2]

Shawn Marion, Antonio McDyess (nearly identical to Amare before surgery), Rex Chapman, Kevin Johnson, Penny Hardaway (for a while he was decent for Phoenix), Rodney Rogers, Cliff Robinson, Tom Googliota (before knee surgery), Danny Manning, Mario Elie, Tony Delk.

During the late ninetees/early 2000s, the Suns were second in terms of depth only to Portland. Kidd produced a single playoff series victory and that was to a Duncan-less Spurs and Kidd only played one game in that series.

You're listing all the decent players from the entire time Kidd was with the team. Rex Chapman and Kevin Johnson were waaaaaay out of their primes. Penny Hardaway was coming off knee surgury and would never be the same again. Antonio McDyess was young and had his best years later on with the Nuggets. The rest suck and aren't even worth mention.

Kidd never had much talent to work with on any one given team. Sure Penny, McDyess, KJ, etc were good at points in their careers, but it was never while playing with Kidd. And I forgot Shawn Marion, the year yall beat the spurs he was young and only put up like 9.1 ppg for that season. He wasn't exactly the human stat machine you see today.

[da_suns_fan__]

You're listing all the decent players from the entire time Kidd was with the team. Rex Chapman and Kevin Johnson were waaaaaay out of their primes. Penny Hardaway was coming off knee surgury and would never be the same again. Antonio McDyess was young and had his best years later on with the Nuggets. The rest suck and aren't even worth mention.

Kidd never had much talent to work with on any one given team. Sure Penny, McDyess, KJ, etc were good at points in their careers, but it was never while playing with Kidd. And I forgot Shawn Marion, the year yall beat the spurs he was young and only put up like 9.1 ppg for that season. He wasn't exactly the human stat machine you see today.

And the next year he had Marion when he average 17 and 10.

Kidds best teams as a Sun:

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/phoenix-suns/team/roster/00/21/1

Notables: Shawn Marion, Penny Hardaway, Rodney Rogers (6th man of the year that year), Cliff Robinson, Tom Googliota, Kevin Johnson and Luc Longley.


http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/phoenix-suns/team/roster/98/21/1

Notables: Antonio McDyess, Kevin Johnson (still in his prime), Danny Manning (6th man of the year that year), Rex Chapman (in his prime...leading scorer that year), Cliff Robinson and Steve Nash!

They won 56 regular season games that year (most in Kidds NBA Career) but lost in the first round.

He had some GREAT teams...but his lack of shooting really hurt the team. They never had a go-to guy in the clutch. The play I saw from Steve Nash the first half of this season was unlike anything I've ever seen in a point guard.

[Findog]

He had some GREAT teams...

He had some very good teams in Phoenix, but they weren't better than the Blazers or Lakres.


but his lack of shooting really hurt the team.

Jason Kidd is a major plus on any team he plays for. Period.


The play I saw from Steve Nash the first half of this season was unlike anything I've ever seen in a point guard.

Then I guess you never saw Magic, Isiah, Stockton, Payton, Pistol, Archibald play then. You should be old enough to remember Buck, Zeke and Payton.

[da_suns_fan__]

.

He had some very good teams in Phoenix, but they weren't better than the Blazers or Lakres.



Jason Kidd is a major plus on any team he plays for. Period.



Then I guess you never saw Magic, Isiah, Stockton, Payton, Pistol, Archibald play then. You should be old enough to remember Buck, Zeke and Payton.

I never they were, dumbass.

And I AM too young to remember Pistol Pete Maravich. He retired the year I was born. Nate Archibald was before my time too. I saw plenty of Stockton, Zeke, Payton, Magic etc. and I stand by what I said.

And why do you keep responding to every post I make since you hate me so much? :lol

I think you are borderline obsessed.

[Mister Sinister]

I didn't say that they were, dumbass. And why do you keep responding to every post I make since you hate me so much? :lol

I think you are borderline obsessed.
I dunno about you, dude, but if I hate someone, I make it a point to let them know. It's no fun ignoring someone you don't like.

[Findog]

I saw plenty of Stockton, Zeke, Payton, Magic etc. and I stand by what I said.



Then you're an idiot.

[monosylab1k]

I never they were, dumbass.
miss teen south carolina?

[Findog]

miss teen south carolina?

Like D'Antoni and the Iraq, such as...

[da_suns_fan__]

Then you're an idiot.


Youre still REALLY upset the way I exposed you the other day, huh? :lol

That was fun.

[monosylab1k]

I never they were, dumbass.

[da_suns_fan__]

And who says that I need new material?

You two are clinging to the same joke that I forgot a word in my sentence....

Ha ha...good one...typo.....what a dumbass!

You guys are out of your league.

[Findog]

Youre still REALLY upset the way I exposed you the other day, huh? :lol

That was fun.

Exposed me? No, you didn't quite post nekkid pictures of me, but you gave it the old college try. Kudos to you.

You and SpursDynasty are both idiots, but he at least brings the funny.

[da_suns_fan__]

Exposed me? No, you didn't quite post nekkid pictures of me, but you gave it the old college try. Kudos to you.

You and SpursDynasty are both idiots, but he at least brings the funny.

Ah yes...the "SpursDynasty is a genius/moron" conundrum.

"I love SpursDynasty. I hate SpursDynasty. I love SpursDynasty. I hate Spurs Dynasty. I love SpursDynasty..."

- FinDog

[Mister Sinister]

Ah yes...the "SpursDynasty is a genius/moron" conundrum.

"I love SpursDynasty. I hate SpursDynasty. I love SpursDynasty. I hate Spurs Dynasty. I love SpursDynasty..."

- FinDog
Ever hear of the phrase "someone you love to hate?"

[Findog]

Ah yes...the "SpursDynasty is a genius/moron" conundrum.

"I love SpursDynasty. I hate SpursDynasty. I love SpursDynasty. I hate Spurs Dynasty. I love SpursDynasty..."

- FinDog

SpursDynasty is awesome. Whether he's a troll or is suffering from a concussion, I don't know, but he rocks. I wish I could help you out with your reading comprehension problems, but only you can do something about that.

[Mister Sinister]

SpursDynasty is awesome. Whether he's a troll or is suffering from a concussion, I don't know, but he rocks. I wish I could help you out with your reading comprehension problems, but only you can do something about that.
Maybe he's a troll suffering from a concussion?

[TheAuthority]

First of all, I'm probably the biggest Duncan fan on this site, and I'm taking LeBron if there's a draft today. If it's just for this season, of course I'm taking Duncan, but LeBron is not THAT far behind Duncan presently, and he's got him beat in the age department by a mile, so I'm taking him for the long haul. Like Tim said to LeBron, this league is going to be your's soon, and it is. Kobe is not even top 5 on this list to anyone who knows the game. He can't do shit without diesel on his team. He's a cancer. You could see LeBron was the far superior player on Team USA. He should have been the tournament MVP, no question.

1) LeBron
2) Duncan
3) Howard
4) Oden
5) Wade

[TheAuthority]

By the way, no way in hell is Kidd better than Nash. There's a reason has 2 MVP's and Kidd has 0, and it isn't because he has better talent on his team. Kidd has Carter, Jefferson and Krstic. And if you don't know about Nenad Krstic yet, you will soon.

And I find all of you praising how good Kidd's defense is HILARIOUS. He's servicable and he has good hands, but let's not get carried away. Anthony Johnson anyone? :lmao

[HJNTX]

www.m-w.com

a basic element : FOUNDATION <a cornerstone of foreign policy>

Meaning something you BUILD AROUND. We BUILT around Timmy...the Lakers haven't build $h!t, and DWade came as the supplemental element surrounding Snaq. Lebron I can't argue with but to put those 2 above TimmyD is ludicrous. :nope
What he said...

[resistanze]

By the way, no way in hell is Kidd better than Nash. There's a reason has 2 MVP's and Kidd has 0, and it isn't because he has better talent on his team. Kidd has Carter, Jefferson and Krstic. And if you don't know about Nenad Krstic yet, you will soon.

And I find all of you praising how good Kidd's defense is HILARIOUS. He's servicable and he has good hands, but let's not get carried away. Anthony Johnson anyone? :lmao
By that same logic:

"There's a reason why Kidd has 2 Finals appearances and Nash has 0, and it isn't because he plays in a harder Conference. Nash has won 2 MVPs and has a record of 177-69 over the past 3 seasons. He also had Amare, Marion, Barbosa, Joe Johnson and Raja Bell."

It doesn't even bother me that someone would say Nash > Kidd, but using # of MVPs is a weak argument.

Nash and Duncan both have 2 MVPs, so Steve Nash = Tim Duncan?

[MrChug]

I'd even place Deron Williams b4 Chris Paul.

[TheAuthority]

By that same logic:

"There's a reason why Kidd has 2 Finals appearances and Nash has 0, and it isn't because he plays in a harder Conference. Nash has won 2 MVPs and has a record of 177-69 over the past 3 seasons. He also had Amare, Marion, Barbosa, Joe Johnson and Raja Bell."

It doesn't even bother me that someone would say Nash > Kidd, but using # of MVPs is a weak argument.

Nash and Duncan both have 2 MVPs, so Steve Nash = Tim Duncan?

Actually, Nash does play in a much harder conference. In the era Kidd was winning the east in, Allen Iverson's 6ers were in contention. I rest my case.

I never said MVP was the be all and end all, it was just a part of my argument. Pull your head out of your ass. I was saying that Nash has 2 of them and Kidd has 0. He has never really been in consideration for one, either. Besides 2003, I think it was, and his numbers were nothing special -- also played in a conference that was god awful.

[resistanze]

Actually, Nash does play in a much harder conference. In the era Kidd was winning the east in, Allen Iverson's 6ers were in contention. I rest my case.
So the fuck what? The Suns finished 1st in 2005 and 2nd in 2006 and 2007 playing in the West. It's not as if they're the 5th seed in the West and you can make a legitimate case that they'd be the first seed in the East -- how do you finish first and second in the harder Conference then use the difficulty of that Conference as an excuse when you fail to make the Finals in 3 tries?

You must surely agree with this point, since you must agree that 2005-07 Suns >>>> 2001-03 Nets, as you implied with your 76ers contending in a weak Conference example.


I never said MVP was the be all and end all, it was just a part of my argument. Pull your head out of your ass. I was saying that Nash has 2 of them and Kidd has 0. He has never really been in consideration for one, either. Besides 2003, I think it was, and his numbers were nothing special -- also played in a conference that was god awful.
And Jason Kidd has 9 NBA All-Defensive Team selections to Nash's (and "Anthony Johnson's" :lmao) zero.

Would you then agree you're an idiot for comparing Kidd's defense to Anthony Johnson?

And no, it was the 2001 season he finished second in MVP voting to Tim Duncan. His numbers were at least as impressive as Nash's first MVP (Kidd: 14.7/9.9/7.3/2.1) and did them under similar circumstances (both were part of a complete team turnaround).

[TheAuthority]

I never compared his defense to Anthony Johnson's. That one flew over your head. You need to stop googling all of your opinions. I said Anthony Johnson because he torched Kidd in the playoffs. Kidd had no answers for him. He was abusing him time and time again. Not to mention to rest of the elite point guards that tear this guy apart.

[resistanze]

I never compared his defense to Anthony Johnson's. That one flew over your head. You need to stop googling all of your opinions. I said Anthony Johnson because he torched Kidd in the playoffs. Kidd had no answers for him. He was abusing him time and time again. Not to mention to rest of the elite point guards that tear this guy apart.
http://www.bootsnall.com/boards/images/whiteflag.gif

Considering you didn't even bother responding to my post, let's just leave it at that.

[TheAuthority]

And no, his numbers weren't as impressive as Nash's, because he did it in the lEastern conference.

[dickface]

And no, his numbers weren't as impressive as Nash's, because he did it in the lEastern conference.
you're an idiot