Harvey: Spurs lose Scola; they aren't alone

[timvp]

Harvey: Spurs lose Scola; they aren't alone
San Antonio Express-News

Luis Scola held a trophy Sunday night, and the Spurs will hear about that.

They will hear more if Scola ever holds one in June.

At least the Spurs have an excuse for trading the MVP of the Olympic qualifying tournament. They are the champs, after all, with a set rotation.

But what about the rest of the league?

Shouldn't another team have out-bid Houston for this super-sized version of Manu Ginobili?

Scola wasn't really the best player in Las Vegas these past two weeks. Scouts would rank every player on the U.S. team higher.

But he was clearly the best player in the Olympic qualifying tournament not in the NBA. He's a smart, bullish scorer, and even the Spurs admit he's been more effective than Tiago Splitter, their first-round draft pick.

Scola was more effective Saturday, too. Then Scola outscored Splitter and Brazil, guaranteeing Argentina an Olympic berth, impressive because both Ginobili and Fabricio Oberto weren't involved.

Furthermore, Scola comes with the typical Argentine edge. He's as tough and as fearless as they all seem to be, which is why the Spurs could have won a few games with this roster: Tim Duncan, Tony Parker and the Argentina national team.

But a buyout got in the way two summers ago, as did a few other factors. Scola isn't Oberto, a glue guy willing to play a role. Scola is a post scorer, and an undersized one. That played well in Europe where he's been the focus, but the Spurs wondered how Scola would share the same area of the floor with Duncan.

Still, even if Scola didn't fit in San Antonio, wouldn't other teams line up for him? If Splitter was worth a first-round pick, wasn't Scola?

The Spurs have been openly shopping Scola for over a year, hoping for a prize in return, and nothing developed. The European Final Four the last three years didn't help the Spurs. Then Scola faced bigger and better players, and he struggled against competition that is more like the NBA.

The consensus: His game won't translate to America.

As a result, Scola became this era's Dennis Rodman. As with Rodman, the Spurs faced a dilemma with a player better than his trade value.

Rodman undercut himself. By 1996, he had scared away most general managers, as well as Madonna, despite his rebounding genius. Only one or two teams even talked to the Spurs about him, and those who did wanted him for free.

Only the Bulls offered anything of substance, because they rightly figured Michael Jordan could control Rodman's scattered brain cells. In return, Chicago was willing to give up a serviceable big man, Will Perdue.

The Spurs could have given Rodman to an awful team, and Rodman would have dissolved into a mess. They instead traded Rodman to the one place where he could succeed, and, as Rodman won championships, the Spurs felt some criticism.

The Spurs accepted this fate for one reason. The Bulls made the best offer, and Perdue was an asset. He was part of the Spurs' first title.

Scola isn't Rodman, exactly. For one, Scola has yet to wear a wedding dress, at least in public.

But this power forward created the same potential backlash as the other. After a three-way deal involving Cleveland fell apart in the summer, the Spurs had a decision to make. They could have done nothing, forcing Scola to return to Europe, but that wouldn't have been fair to Scola. And they could have given Scola away to an Eastern Conference team, but that wouldn't have done much for the Spurs.

They instead got the best they could, which was payroll relief. This kind of exchange is not to be diminished in the world of the salary cap, but, in doing so, the Spurs traded Scola as they did Rodman — to the one place that could come back to bite them the hardest.

The Rockets aren't just division rivals. They happen to need a power forward.

And if Scola fits next to Yao Ming?

The Spurs will feel the same kind of sting that came when Rodman won titles, when the sting should be shared.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA090307BuckHarvey.EN.34b5bdf.html

[timvp]

Pretty good article. Basically a summary of the debates on the forum. No real new information of note, however it does sound even the Spurs were impressed with the way Scola played.

And :rolleyes @ the Spurs couldn't sit on Scola because it would be unfair.

[Switchman]

If they would have held onto scola until after these FIBA games could they have gotten something A LOT better? Nocioni perhaps!?

I foresee Manu or Parker drawing a lot of stupid fouls on Scola in the future :ihit

[conqueso]

"Scola" and "Rodman" in the same breath is pretty crazy, at least at this point. We should wait until this guy actually plays an NBA game before we call this trade Rodman-for-Purdue (which, by the way, after all was said and done, wasn't really a bad trade).

[Ariel]

Huh?

So this guy believes it was the Spurs decision not to sign Scola, based on basketball related concerns? He has inside information to the Spurs organization, and he still hasn't heard about Scola's ridiculous demands for the past years, Tau holding him hostage by saying they'd release him if he paid the buyout while letting the Spurs know they wouldn't, and Scola's recent absolute refusal to wear a Spurs' jersey?

Wow... he's totally clueless.

[whottt]

Geezus...I can't believe so many people are making a big deal about this scrub.

[gilmor]

After reading all the comments about what if's and what not-if's regarding Scola, I just got one sentence to say:

In life, you win some and you lose some..

Don't take too much heart..

I think this Scola debate have been carried on for far too long..

[whottt]

I agree it's been on far too long...but once the season starts the Scola crew is going to look foolish...they need to get their shots in now before Scola Abdur Raheem has actually stepped on an NBA court.

[picnroll]

At this point Scola could make the all-star team and whottt would say "See I told you he was a bum". whottt has way to much invested in being right on this.

[whottt]

He's not going to be near as good in the NBA as he is in Interntaional Competition.


Keep in mind, this is where he has always excelled. He's better in International play than he is in Euroleague play IMO.


Am I the only one that watched him during the Olympics in 04? He played about the same...only he had Manu on his team and Manu played even better.


Scola won't make an All Star Team in the NBA...at least not one voted on by the coaches.

[whottt]

I just think it's funny how FIBA counts for Scola but it didn't for a guy like Shane Heal.

To me the one thing that does transfer is shooting....

[Fast Dunk]

Sour Grapes? ^

[WalterBenitez]

Too many roars about Luis, let's see.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Too many roars about Luis, let's see.

It always takes me a while to get your posts Walter, but yes, I agree.

In the end what's done is done, let's wait and see what happens...

(However, that Rockets roster does look pretty strong to me).

[Solid D]

But this power forward created the same potential backlash as the other. After a three-way deal involving Cleveland fell apart in the summer, the Spurs had a decision to make. They could have done nothing, forcing Scola to return to Europe, but that wouldn't have been fair to Scola. And they could have given Scola away to an Eastern Conference team, but that wouldn't have done much for the Spurs.

They instead got the best they could, which was payroll relief. This kind of exchange is not to be diminished in the world of the salary cap, but, in doing so, the Spurs traded Scola as they did Rodman — to the one place that could come back to bite them the hardest.

Had Luis' friends, Manu and Fabricio, not been part of the Spurs family, keeping Scola's rights may have been an easier thing to do. There is that human element in business that is placed onto the scales in weighing a decision and with the Spurs - even though the financial aspects were key - that element could not be ignored.

[Kamnik]

scrub

If you call Scola a scrub and your really mean it you should stop watching basketball because you dont understand it.

[Rev Hill]

If they would have held onto scola until after these FIBA games could they have gotten something A LOT better? Nocioni perhaps!?

I foresee Manu or Parker drawing a lot of stupid fouls on Scola in the future :ihit

Good point and good article by Harvey. It still just boggles the mind that we gave this guy away to the Rockets. A huge blunder down the road I'm afraid...

Again, I don't think he will be a star, but he will be an effective player, much to good to give away to a division foe...

[ArgSpursFan]

I just think it's funny how FIBA counts for Scola but it didn't for a guy like Shane Heal.

To me the one thing that does transfer is shooting....

quick foots don´t transfer when He´ll face Bigger,slower,havier PFs in the NBA tham in Europe??,and also,He wont be a franshise player no more,with all the attention seted in Yao in the Low post He´ll will have more spaces to hit the midrange or to assist some one esle.

[Ariel]

I just think it's funny how FIBA counts for Scola but it didn't for a guy like Shane Heal.

To me the one thing that does transfer is shooting....
In what parallel dimension does the Australian basketball league of the 90s rival the modern day ACB and Euroleague?

Also I'm not that familiar with Heal's career. But this is a summary of Scola's accomplishments. A few are missing though, like the fact that he was ACB first team and second and third in MVP voting in the two years of the last four where he didn't get the award. But anyway, here they are:


Won the gold medal at the South American Cadet Championship with the Argentinean National Team in 1995.
Won the gold medal at the South American Junior Championship with the Argentinean National Team in 1996.
Won the silver medal at the South American Championship with the Argentinean National Team in 1999.
Won the gold medal at the Under 21 South American Championship with the Argentinean National Team in 2000. Named MVP of the tournament.
Won the bronze medal at the Under 21 World Championship with the Argentinean National Team in 2001. Named to the All-Tournament team.
Won the gold medal at the Tournament of Americas with the Argentinean National Team in 2001.
Won the silver medal at the World Championship with the Argentinean National Team in 2002.
Won the gold medal at the Olympic Games with the Argentinean National Team in 2004.
Won the Spanish Cup with Tau Ceramica in 2002, 2004 and 2006.
Won the Spanish League with Tau Ceramica in 2002.
Won the Spanish Supercup with Tau Ceramica in 2005 and 2006. Named MVP in 2005.
Named Spanish League Rookie of the Year in 2000.
Named MVP of the Spanish League in 2005 and 2007.
Named to the All-Euroleague 2nd Team in 2005.
Named to the All-Euroleague 1st Team in 2006 and 2007.
Won the silver medal at the Tournament of Americas with the Argentinean National Team in 2007. Named MVP.

Does Shane Heal's career compare?

EDIT: Wait, never mind. I found out he got the 1990 "Good Hands" award in the Australian league. I take back what I said. If he didn't make it in the NBA it's definite proof no FIBA accomplishment means anything.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

In what parallel dimension does the Australian basketball league of the 90s rival the modern day ACB and Euroleague?

Also I'm not that familiar with Heal's career. But this is a summary of Scola's accomplishments. A few are missing though, like the fact that he was ACB first team and second and third in MVP voting in the two years of the last four where he didn't get the award. But anyway, here they are:

Won the gold medal at the South American Cadet Championship with the Argentinean National Team in 1995.
Won the gold medal at the South American Junior Championship with the Argentinean National Team in 1996.
Won the silver medal at the South American Championship with the Argentinean National Team in 1999.
Won the gold medal at the Under 21 South American Championship with the Argentinean National Team in 2000. Named MVP of the tournament.
Won the bronze medal at the Under 21 World Championship with the Argentinean National Team in 2001. Named to the All-Tournament team.
Won the gold medal at the Tournament of Americas with the Argentinean National Team in 2001.
Won the silver medal at the World Championship with the Argentinean National Team in 2002.
Won the gold medal at the Olympic Games with the Argentinean National Team in 2004.
Won the Spanish Cup with Tau Ceramica in 2002, 2004 and 2006.
Won the Spanish League with Tau Ceramica in 2002.
Won the Spanish Supercup with Tau Ceramica in 2005 and 2006. Named MVP in 2005.
Named Spanish League Rookie of the Year in 2000.
Named MVP of the Spanish League in 2005 and 2007.
Named to the All-Euroleague 2nd Team in 2005.
Named to the All-Euroleague 1st Team in 2006 and 2007.
Won the silver medal at the Tournament of Americas with the Argentinean National Team in 2007. Named MVP.
Does Shane Heal's career compare?

EDIT: Wait, never mind. I found out he got the 1990 "Good Hands" award in the Australian league. I take back what I said. If he didn't make it in the NBA it's definite proof no FIBA accomplishment means anything.
:lol :tu

[pad300]

At this point Scola could make the all-star team and whottt would say "See I told you he was a bum". whottt has way to much invested in being right on this.

Hey picnroll, you need to fix your tagline....

"Mahinmi in ?"

Mahinmi is joining us this year...

Unless your counting down to him becoming an all-star...
:elephant

[picnroll]

Hey picnroll, you need to fix your tagline....

"Mahinmi in ?"

Mahinmi is joining us this year...

Unless your counting down to him becoming an all-star...
:elephant
I'm holding out until he can actually stick with the Spurs' A team not the NBDL.

[SenorSpur]

I admit that I, for one, don't think that Scola's game will translate into what we've seen from him as a member of the Argentine National team.

He may be about the size of Carlos Boozer, but he will not be near as effective. Besides that, he doesn't rebound well enough to be considered a legitimate PF threat at the next level.

Having said all that, I do believe, however, that he will become a very effective player for the Rockets. He's a nice addition to their starting five and should do well in Van Gundy's system. I just simply don't see him becoming the second coming Karl Malone, Boozer, Barkley or anyone of that ilk.

So let's the criticism of the Spurs begin now. Because the Spurs will be the ones laughing in June.

[saporvida]

He's a nice addition to their starting five and should do well in Van Gundy's system.

who? jvg aint the coach no longer and his system like himself just got thrown out of the building.

but yeah fuck scola!

[Dex]

Buck actually raises a valid point, for a change.

It's not like this guy was a third-pick or some diamond in the rough.

Every front office in the league knew he was a big gun for Argentina. They knew he was a capable big-man and a dependable scorer. Otherwise, they just haven't been looking over their freaking scouting reports.

We took this guy with the 56th freaking pick 5 years ago, in a draft where we didn't even have a first round pick (traded to Sixers). That's 55 chances other teams gave up on him, not to mention the past two years we've been shopping his trade rights around.

I don't see why this is such a big coup for Houston when nearly every team in the league, including the Spurs, has passed on this guy.

I'm not saying Scola won't be a good player. I was excited about his prospect and would have rather seen him come to the Spurs.

But some people need to get the fuck over it already.

[SenorSpur]

who? jvg aint the coach no longer and his system like himself just got thrown out of the building.

but yeah fuck scola!

Damn, I forgot about that. Thanks for keeping me honest.

[Bruno]

I hope we will know one day the real reason why Spurs haven't signed Scola because it's a little mystery.
In 2005 his buyout was maybe too high (or maybe not) but Spurs could have signed him for about $10M last summer or this summer but they decided to go after other PF/C like Mourning, Przybilla, Elson, Butler, Bonner or Amir Johnson.

Spurs were looking for upgrades at PF/C and they didn't even try to sign Scola.
Why ?
Scola too expensive ? No, Spurs were ready to spend more on other players.
Bad fit with Spurs ? Unlikely when you see that Spurs have PF/C with very different profiles.
Not enough nba experience ? No, they have signed Butler and tried to sign Amir Johnson.
Bad blood ? It doesn't seem to be the case.

The only answer that make half of sense is that Spurs were really low on Scola and didn't think that he was worth a $10M try. Spurs have scouted Scola for more than 5 years and they were confident enough about their evaluation on Scola to finally trade him to a division rival.

One thing is sure : if Scola become a good nba player, Spurs FO will really look bad. Doing a mistake with a draft pick is understandable but making a double mistake (not signing him + trading him to a conference rival) with a 27 years old player heavily scouted will be inexcusable.

[nfg3]

[QUOTE=Dex]Buck actually raises a valid point, for a change.

It's not like this guy was a third-pick or some diamond in the rough.

Every front office in the league knew he was a big gun for Argentina. They knew he was a capable big-man and a dependable scorer. Otherwise, they just haven't been looking over their freaking scouting reports.

We took this guy with the 56th freaking pick 5 years ago, in a draft where we didn't even have a first round pick (traded to Sixers). That's 55 chances other teams gave up on him, not to mention the past two years we've been shopping his trade rights around.

I don't see why this is such a big coup for Houston when nearly every team in the league, including the Spurs, has passed on this guy.
QUOTE]

Excellent point - He's a known commodity and the Spurs couldn't get any takers? What were the other FO's looking at? Maybe this from Harvey helps shed some light on the situation:

The Spurs have been openly shopping Scola for over a year, hoping for a prize in return, and nothing developed. The European Final Four the last three years didn't help the Spurs. Then Scola faced bigger and better players, and he struggled against competition that is more like the NBA.

The consensus: His game won't translate to America.

Though his game seems to have improved against tougher competiton since those last three Final Fours the question is: Will his game translate to the NBA? This needs to be answered. The answer will determine the impact of the trade to Houston and the Spurs draft of Splitter.

[wildbill2u]

It looks to me like the Spurs received a Market Offer from the Rockets, eg, the best offer that any team made for the player.

Now you can argue that the offer was too low and they should have rejected it, but the facts are that was his market value price. The option of keeping him on a string in Europe wouldn't have solved the problem of his low market value to other clubs. Who knows why no one else wanted to step up and pay more?

[J.T.]

If you call Scola a scrub and your really mean it you should stop watching basketball because you dont understand it.

In contrast to the camp that's acting like Scola is going to miraculously turn Houston into Title Town, I wonder who really doesn't understand anything here.

[ShoogarBear]

Shane Heal:lol

[Supergirl]

Ironic to compare Scola to Rodman, since the one area where everyone seems to agree Scola lacks (and a big part of the reason the Spurs were willing to let him go) is REBOUNDING.

He may be a better scorer than Oberto or Splitter, but he's not gonna get much opportunity for that in Houston, playing with McGrady and Yao. And he's weak defensively and a weak rebounder, so playing alongside Tim Duncan, the Spurs don't really have a role for him. The Spurs need a role player who can rebound and play good D at their C position. Oberto actually fits that better, and from what I've heard, so does Splitter, who's 4 or 5 years younger than Scola.

[Martin R]

Today, Scola is better rebounder than Oberto.

[ChumpDumper]

Really? Because Oberto rebounded at a rate higher than that of Dirk Nowitzki and Elton Brand last season. I think he and to a lesser extent Elson are a bit underrated as rebounders.

[byrontx]

I am not nearly as savvy as many posters on this board but the Scola thing is a mystery. Could it be that with some of the moaning and groaning he did that he failed the Spurs character test?

The way he was dumped seemed like he pissed someone (Holt?) off.

[Mr. Body]

Stupid, stupid, stupid. The Scola trade was stupid to epic proportions. There was no sense to it and the Spurs blew the entire situation for the last two years. They can absorb it because the team is obviously still very solid, but this whole ordeal was just insane.

[smeagol]

Really? Because Oberto rebounded at a rate higher than that of Dirk Nowitzki and Elton Brand last season. I think he and to a lesser extent Elson are a bit underrated as rebounders.

Oberto is a great "tipper".

Do those count as rebounds in the NBA?

[wildbill2u]

Oberto is a great "tipper".

Do those count as rebounds in the NBA?
Good point! Oberto saved a lot of possessions last year by tipping or knocking the ball out to a teammate. I'm not sure why he does this instead of actually rebounding, but it seems to work for him.

[dbestpro]

Scola did not generate interest in the NBA because he is slow and short and has an average outside shot. In euro play he can bang with older players and do his post thing without much trouble. Most of the young athletic players have trouble getting floor time in the Euro. They just don't let them play. FIBA showed he can score as the go to guy, but how will he do as a role player the position that every NBA team except Minnesota would want him to play. His game is not suited for a role. His most difficult time will come playing defense against the other low post scorers in the league. Yao will be able to cover for him some but Scola will be a defensive liablity. He probably could be compared to Brian Cardinal with no three shot. Houston should be happy if they can get juman Howard's numbers of 9.7 ppg and 5.9 rpg.

[smrattler]

^^ I'll add to slow, short and plays below the rim. But so does Oberto, right, with his layups and finger rolls and I don't hold that against Oberto. But I think that lack of size and presence scares NBA teams. He could be the weak link in the frontcourt on defense.

Ok, conspiracy theorists PLEASE answer...

Is it possible they got some feedback from Manu and Oberto? Here me out. The Spurs and the whole world have seen Scola play and what he does/doesn't do well. They can guesstimate how he would physically matchup in the NBA and probably have their theories on that. But if you were Spurs management, wouldn't it make sense to ask for brutal honest (and anonymous) feedback from two guys on your roster that have played with him for years and have gotten after it with him in practice for years? To get an idea of what they think he would struggle with in the NBA (or to what degree)? And if the Spurs had a theory that he might struggle physically, hearing something even close to that from these two guys might close their door on him.

Just a far-fethched theory thought I'd throw out. No need to bash. :)

[whottt]

Oberto is a great "tipper".

Do those count as rebounds in the NBA?

Those tips are awesome. Better than not touching the ball at all.

[whottt]

^^ I'll add to slow, short and plays below the rim. But so does Oberto, right, with his layups and finger rolls and I don't hold that against Oberto. But I think that lack of size and presence scares NBA teams. He could be the weak link in the frontcourt on defense.

Ok, conspiracy theorists PLEASE answer...

Is it possible they got some feedback from Manu and Oberto? Here me out. The Spurs and the whole world have seen Scola play and what he does/doesn't do well. They can guesstimate how he would physically matchup in the NBA and probably have their theories on that. But if you were Spurs management, wouldn't it make sense to ask for brutal honest (and anonymous) feedback from two guys on your roster that have played with him for years and have gotten after it with him in practice for years? To get an idea of what they think he would struggle with in the NBA (or to what degree)? And if the Spurs had a theory that he might struggle physically, hearing something even close to that from these two guys might close their door on him.

Just a far-fethched theory thought I'd throw out. No need to bash. :)



All that is possible...

You know what else?



It's also possible that Scola didn't want to play in Manu's shadow...

He already has to be overshadowed by Manu on Team Argentina...would he want that all year round?




I mean...did Scola name his child Manu?


No he didn't.





To me it's pretty obvious that the Spurs drafted Scola, either because they liked him, or because they thought he'd have eventual trade value...


But it's also pretty obvious to anyone that's been a Spurfan since Scola was drafted...that 4 out of the 5 years since drafting Scola...Scola hasn't wanted to be a Spur.


The one year he said the right things was two years ago, after we won a title...other than that...nothing. He's never been positive about it.


Revisionists can spin Scola as a victim of misquotes...but I saw the interview with him during the Olympics...his words were pretty clear...but more clear was the sneer that came across his face at the mere mention of playing for the Spurs.



Scola resented the Spurs for drafting him because of his stupid buyout...he thinks he could have been in the NBA a long time ago if he hadn't been drafted(he's wrong)...but more than that, he's never been excited about the thought of playing with Manu...he considers Manu an obstacle to his being considered the best Argie player.

[smeagol]

Those tips are awesome. Better than not touching the ball at all.

Answer my question, please.

Are they counted as rebounds?

Back to the subject of Scola, I think it was clear from the games in Vegas that he has listened to the Spurs' FO because the guy's rebounding has gotten better.

[ducks]

scola losses playing on the spurs not the other way around

[ducks]

Answer my question, please.

Are they counted as rebounds?

Back to the subject of Scola, I think it was clear from the games in Vegas that he has listened to the Spurs' FO because the guy's rebounding has gotten better.
really he listens by therowing a fit like a two year old

[smeagol]

scola losses playing on the spurs not the other way around

I agree.

Would've been so beautiful . . .

[ShoogarBear]

Answer my question, please.

Are they counted as rebounds?
I think it's a judgment call.

If the scorer thinks he clearly has control of the ball, then they may give the rebound to him.

If he's fighting somebody for the rebound, it probably goes to whoever gets absolute possession.

My guess would be that the majority of the time he doesn't get credit for his tips.

[whottt]

Answer my question, please.

Are they counted as rebounds?

Yes...how you think Dennis Rodman averaged so many rebounds?

He'd do 4 or 5 tips to himself every time he touched the ball...but it still was important, because he usually came down with the ball. Just like Oberto's tips usually go right to where he wants them to..one of his teamates.





Back to the subject of Scola, I think it was clear from the games in Vegas that he has listened to the Spurs' FO because the guy's rebounding has gotten better.


He's also suddenly stopped saying stupid stuff in the media miraculously, and being the poor misunderstood victimg of misquotes...my guess is he learned that lesson the hardway too...and was taking the advice of either the Spurs, or his agent.


Bottom line is that if Scola hadn't signed a stupid contract with Tau...he'd have been in the NBA sooner(but not as soon as he thinks)...and he wouldn't have ever had to put up with being drafted by the Spurs....because he'd have been drafted long before they got a chance to draft him.


Scola and his agent are responsible for Scola's problems. No one else...the fact that Scola blames everyone but he and his agent is a huge character flaw that makes me not want him on this team.


I am glad that over-rated whiner is in Houston...with another over-rated fucking whiner named TMac...being coached by yet another over-rated whiner named Rick.


That's what RC and Pop are laughing to themselves about behind closed doors...the supreme poetic justice of it all.

[whottt]

I think it's a judgment call.

If the scorer thinks he clearly has control of the ball, then they may give the rebound to him.

If he's fighting somebody for the rebound, it probably goes to whoever gets absolute possession.

My guess would be that the majority of the time he doesn't get credit for his tips.


The tips smeagol is referring to count as rebounds...the ones where Oberto tips it back to a teamate.



All great rebounders get their share of tips though...it's not like they just count them for Oberto.

[ShoogarBear]

The tips smeagol is referring to count as rebounds...the ones where Oberto tips it back to a teamate.



All great rebounders get their share of tips though...it's not like they just count them for Oberto.Yeah, but sometimes he tips them and they don't go to a teammate. and sometimes he's just fighting somebody for the rebound and it gets into the hands of a teammate. In neither of those cases does he get credit for the rebound, so there has to be a judgment call by the scorer.

[ShoogarBear]

Yes...how you think Dennis Rodman averaged so many rebounds?

He'd do 4 or 5 tips to himself every time he touched the ball...but it still was important, because he usually came down with the ball. Just like Oberto's tips usually go right to where he wants them to..one of his teamates. Uh, no.

There can only be one rebound after a missed shot. The only way you get multiple rebounds on tips is if you're putting offensive rebounds back up for shots. Moses Malone and George McGinnis used to get multiple rebounds that way. There's no way on the defensive end, though, that you get credit for more than one rebound until somebody misses another shot.

[barbacoataco]

I think that one of the reasons other teams didn't want him was the buyout issue and questions if he really wanted to play in the NBA, and how much he wanted to be paid. Teams might have given up a 1st rounder if they were SURE they could sign him and get him on their team, for the price the Rockets paid. Even when the Rockets traded for him some people were not sure if they could sign him and take him away for Tau. So it hurt his trade value because teams didn't want to give up a 1st round pick and wind up with nothing in return.

[whottt]

Uh, no.

There can only be one rebound after a missed shot. The only way you get multiple rebounds on tips is if you're putting offensive rebounds back up for shots. Moses Malone and George McGinnis and David Robinson used to get multiple rebounds that way.

Fixed




There's no way on the defensive end, though, that you get credit for more than one rebound until somebody misses another shot.


So are you saying it has to touch the rim? If that's true I never noticed that being necessary.

It being on the defensive end is moot to the point I was making about Rodman...Rodman's rebounding sickness was because of his offensive rebounding more than his defensive...

He lead the NBA in offensive rebounds 6 times, including an absolutely sickening 6 and half offensive rebounds per game, and including all his monster rebound seasons....only lead it in defensive rebounding 3 times.


I am not so sure the rule is the same there as you think. It might be that way on the defensive end...but I am almost certain you get multiple offensive boards without the ball touching the rim.

[whottt]

Yeah, but sometimes he tips them and they don't go to a teammate. and sometimes he's just fighting somebody for the rebound and it gets into the hands of a teammate. In neither of those cases does he get credit for the rebound, so there has to be a judgment call by the scorer.



I am talking about the deliberate tips...that's what smeagol is taking about too. The ones where he reaches up and taps the ball back...it's pretty obvious and there's not much judgement to it. And I think they count those even if his teamates don't wind up with the ball.

[timvp]

I am not so sure the rule is the same there as you think. It might be that way on the defensive end...but I am almost certain you get multiple offensive boards without the ball touching the rim.Wrong.

To get credit for a rebound, a shot has to be missed. Tipping the ball repeatedly in the air doesn't give you multiple rebounds. It has to hit either the rim or the backboard ... and even then it won't count as multiple offensive rebounds unless the tips were deemed field goal attempts.

[CPspursfan]

I was pretty shocked that the spurs FO practically gave scola away, but after watching the FIBA tournament there are a couple of things that I left thinking...
1) It would have been nice to run out a second team consisting of Vaughn, Manu, barry/udoka, scola, and elson.
2) Scola must have slept w/ RC's wife or something. The FO is doing it's usual cia job and not saying anything.
3) Scola is NOT a game changer. He is not Manu and at best he is as good as Oberto (this is not an insult as I like Oberto's game). But he IS an undersized PF and it wasn't that long ago that the spurs had an undersized PF that played with a lot of heart, hustle, and energy.
4) Scola will average 12-5 with the rockets.

[timvp]

I am talking about the deliberate tips...that's what smeagol is taking about too. The ones where he reaches up and taps the ball back...it's pretty obvious and there's not much judgement to it. And I think they count those even if his teamates don't wind up with the ball.:wtf

So if Oberto tips a rebound to an opposing player, you think Oberto gets credit for the rebound? :lol

I watched the stats closely last year and Oberto was almost always given the rebound if he tipped it to a teammate. I'd say like 95-98% of the time Oberto would get credit as long as a teammate secured the ball. Sometimes though, the scorers wouldn't give it to him ... in which their thinking has to be it wasn't a "controlled" tip.

But in recent years, the definition of controlled tip has expanded pretty generously. For example, those times Oberto just batted the ball blindly to half court, he'd almost always get credit.

[whottt]

Wrong.

To get credit for a rebound, a shot has to be missed. Tipping the ball repeatedly in the air doesn't give you multiple rebounds. It has to hit either the rim or the backboard ... and even then it won't count as multiple offensive rebounds unless the tips were deemed field goal attempts.


Eh...I am not going to argue it because I'm not certain and because it makes too much sense. I always assumed that those tips Rodman was doing...I am not just talking about tipping it directly to himself because he's not in control of it...I am talking about tipping it to keep it away from the hands of taller players...were giving him extra boards. But now that I think about it...that would be pretty cheap.

[whottt]

:wtf

So if Oberto tips a rebound to an opposing player, you think Oberto gets credit for the rebound? :lol



I watched the stats closely last year and Oberto was almost always given the rebound if he tipped it to a teammate. I'd say like 95-98% of the time Oberto would get credit as long as a teammate secured the ball. Sometimes though, the scorers wouldn't give it to him ... in which their thinking has to be it wasn't a "controlled" tip.

But in recent years, the definition of controlled tip has expanded pretty generously. For example, those times Oberto just batted the ball blindly to half court, he'd almost always get credit.



You are oversimplifying it...suppose Oberto tips it perfectly to a teamate and the teamate isn't looking for it or it gets stripped before he has control of it...

That's not on Oberto...Oberto obviously controlled the ball enough to tip it where he wanted it to go and the failure to get the ball is due to teamates.

I didn't just say whoever touches it in a helter skelter scrub gets the board.



Look...I gave credit for the offensive rebounding, see how is it easy to get me to concede an argument when I am not sure of myself? Congrats...you got something off Shoogar's tip...but don't be thinking you're all right about every thing now...don't let it go to your head.


And shouldn't you be adding pitchers right about now? Again? IT's been 30 minutes.

[timvp]

You are oversimplifying it...suppose Oberto tips it perfectly to a teamate and the teamate isn't looking for it or it gets stripped before he has control of it...

That's not on Oberto...Oberto obviously controlled the ball enough to tip it where he wanted it to go and the failure to get the ball is due to teamates. So if Oberto tips it to a teammate who isn't looking, you seriously think he gets credit for the rebound? Then who gets credit for the turnover? Oberto or the teammate who wasn't looking?:lol


I didn't just say whoever touches it in a helter skelter scrub gets the board. Never said you did.


Look...I gave credit for the offensive rebounding, see how is it easy to get me to concede an argument when I am not sure of myself? Congrats...you got something off Shoogar's tip...but don't be thinking you're all right about every thing now...don't let it go to your head. I can't help if you are wrong multiple times in the same thread. Just trying to help you catch up.


And shouldn't you be adding pitchers right about now? Again? IT's been 30 minutes.I already gave you congrats. What more do you want?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

They could have done nothing, forcing Scola to return to Europe, but that wouldn't have been fair to Scola.

Lame. I'm sorry, but they should have waited until after the FIBA tourney, they would have had better offers than they got back in June and early July.

Horrible personnel management on this one.

[whottt]

So if Oberto tips it to a teammate who isn't looking, you seriously think he gets credit for the rebound? Then who gets credit for the turnover? Oberto or the teammate who wasn't looking?:lol

Oberto probably gets credit for the rebound...and the TO.

It's not like it's just bouncing any direction of his hands...he's definitely controlling it enough to get it where he wants it to go, in the back court.

That's probably the major determinant....if it goes into the back court it was a rebound.



I already gave you congrats. What more do you want?

For you to forget the waiver wire exists...or at least change your team name ;)

[timvp]

Oberto probably gets credit for the rebound...and the TO.

It's not like it's just bouncing any direction of his hands...he's definitely controlling it enough to get it where he wants it to go, in the back court.

That's probably the major determinant....if it goes into the back court it was a rebound. Decent in theory but it doesn't work that way. If Oberto (or anyone else) tips a rebound and it isn't secured by a teammate ... whoever the defender is who ends up with the ball gets credit for the rebound.

If Oberto got a turnover for every tip rebound that didn't go to a teammate, he'd average a lot more than .5 turnovers per game.


For you to forget the waiver wire exists...or at least change your team name ;)No need to worry about me when you move on to the next round. You've got the championship in the bag already.

[whottt]

Lame. I'm sorry, but they should have waited until after the FIBA tourney, they would have had better offers than they got back in June and early July.

Horrible personnel management on this one.


This suggestion is lame.

#1. You don't know what Tau was going to offer Scola. It's not 100% certain he wasn't going to sign a long term deal.

#2. The Spurs are trying to repeat...not dick around with malcontents all offseason. They didn't want any questions or distractions keeping them from the task at hand.

#3. Scola wasn't essential to winning a title...I think Udoka can definitely be more of a factor. Why sit there and keep a roster spot tied up and lose out on guys that could help while you are fucking around trying to get more for Scola...



Bottom line...Scola wasn't as hot of a commodity as anyone thought.

Even if we had held on to him, his contract still would have been vague to the trading team, and he still wouldn't have been as valued as he is now, with his contract cleared up.


And the teams still would have been wary of trading for him...because of the rep of the Spurs FO...I mean if Scola's so great, wny are the Spurs trading him?


Those are the smart teams BTW....it's pretty obvious why the Spurs traded him.


Bottom line is just that you guys are pissed we didn't get more for him...it's got nothing to do with title contention or the teams goals for this year...or beyond...it's just you guys don't we got a good enough deal for him. And you guys wanted the Spurs to fuck around all season with this so they could get somethiing better(although what you think we could have gotten I have no idea)....I am glad the Spurs focused on improving the team for this season instead being Monty Hall.

[Yogi]

Even if we had held on to him, his contract still would have been vague to the trading team, and he still wouldn't have been as valued as he is now, with his contract cleared up.

He's valued now, because it's clear he'll contribute significantly, which is in stark contrast to the 'he sucks, he's a malcontent' propaganda trotted out by the same usual suspects in the SA media.


Bottom line is just that you guys are pissed we didn't get more for him.

Hell, I would have welcomed trading him for a second round draft pick.... as long as it was to some scrub team in the east, not a freaking division rival.

I'm mad because this guy could have come off the bench behind Tim and we could have run our O (which tends to stagnate with the second unit on the court) through him and gotten 12-15 and 7 a night, and not only do they go away from that idea, but they trade him to a division rival, give them a piece they sorely needed, and now we have to deal with a POed Scola playing out of his mind however many times we play Houston each year (accounting for the playoffs).

Yep, awesome move.

[ArgSpursFan]

Eh...I am not going to argue it because I'm not certain and because it makes too much sense. I always assumed that those tips Rodman was doing...I am not just talking about tipping it directly to himself because he's not in control of it...I am talking about tipping it to keep it away from the hands of taller players...were giving him extra boards. But now that I think about it...that would be pretty cheap.

tippin aint a rebound,that´s why it´s called a tip,not a board,you BB expert.
TIMVP is right,the player needs to get control of the ball to be considered a rebound,that´s why oberto ended up with less tham 6 rpgs last year,coze tips dont count as boards.
tipping could be considered more like a pass tham a board.

[Spurs Dynasty 21]

Lame. I'm sorry, but they should have waited until after the FIBA tourney, they would have had better offers than they got back in June and early July.

Horrible personnel management on this one.



exactly, Spurs FO look like fucking fools giving up the FIBA MVP for litteraly NOTHING to a rival


if they would have done this now, the offers would have been SIGNIFACTLY better




Spurs will pay for this move

[ChumpDumper]

:lol

1) Who was predicting Tournament MVP for Scola?

2) Scola has already played at this level in FIBA tournaments before. He just had the luxury of being the only reliable scorer on this particular team.

3) You guys act like NBA GMs have never heard of Scola. He is a known quantity.

4) So we could've gotten Oden if we had just waited?

[Spurs Dynasty 21]

4) So we could've gotten Oden if we had just waited?




ahhhh



so you resort to extreme exaggeration to mask your weak argument




classic chump

[ChumpDumper]

Really, why would this change any GMs mind? What would he have gotten this week?

[Spurs Dynasty 21]

Really, why would this change any GMs mind?



why would it change GMs mind that he was the MVP of the FIBA tourny that just happened?




you serious?

[ChumpDumper]

why would it change GMs mind that he was the MVP of the FIBA tourny that just happened?




you serious?Yes, quite serious. If there was an actual change in Scola's level of play, you might have an argument. As it is, he just scored more because Manu and Chapu were out and he got the MVP because there was a split in the votes for American players.

[saporvida]

im so sick of hearing that we traded scola to a "rival" of ours that hasnt been so in many many yrs. houston aint a threat considering they cant get out of the 1st round.

with old man mutombo going back to houston it seems as though scola will be riding the pine. isnt that why he initially didnt want to be a part of the spurs? fuck him!

[SRJ]

I'm mad because this guy could have come off the bench behind Tim and we could have run our O (which tends to stagnate with the second unit on the court) through him and gotten 12-15 and 7 a night

My response is not one of the sour grapes variety, but I don't understand how Luis Scola would have gotten 12-15/7 on a team that plays a slowdown style and gets about 55 points from its Big Three. Where would those numbers come from playing in the Spurs system?

Now if Scola was joining the Suns, I could see him putting up those sorts of numbers in his first year. But not here.


exactly, Spurs FO look like fucking fools giving up the FIBA MVP for litteraly NOTHING to a rival

David Eckstein was the 2006 World Series MVP. Doesn't make him a good baseball player - it just means he got hot at the right time. (And if you'll check the record, he wasn't the Cardinals best player during the World Series)

Scola is a better basketball player than Eckstein is a baseball player, but I still wouldn't put too much stock in an award like that - unless you think Tony Parker is the best player on the Spurs roster.

[mardigan]

exactly, Spurs FO look like fucking fools giving up the FIBA MVP for litteraly NOTHING to a rival


if they would have done this now, the offers would have been SIGNIFACTLY better




Spurs will pay for this move
:lol
On no, not the Fiba MVP!