The Jena Six [Archive] - SpursTalk.com Forums

Oh, Gee!!

09-04-2007, 11:07 AM

Residents: Nooses spark school violence, divide town

JENA, Louisiana (CNN) -- Mychal Bell was like a lot of boys his age, his mother says.

The always-smiling 16-year-old often spent weekends on the couch, munching Little Debbie snack cakes, watching football and dreaming of a day he might join his heroes in the NFL.

That was before police arrested the star running back and five other teens -- dubbed the "Jena 6" -- on attempted murder and conspiracy charges after a December 4, 2006, fight at the local high school.

Bell, now 17, sits in a cell in Jena, Louisiana, waiting to learn later this month if he will spend the next two decades in prison.

"He's not the same. He's grown up a lot since he's been in there. He's not the same ol' smiling Mychal he used to be," his mother, Melissa Bell, says. "I pray that the judge will go easy on him."

Mychal Bell wasn't convicted for attempted murder. The charges were diluted to aggravated battery and conspiracy, but undiluted is the outrage over the fates of Bell and the rest of the Jena 6.

Many in this sleepy town of 3,000 are calling Bell's July conviction a case of Jim Crow justice.

They question why Bell's public defender never called a witness in the trial. They question the all-white jury that took three hours to convict him. They question charges they say are wildly overblown. They question why the teen was tried as an adult.

And they say the fight never would have happened if not for the nooses.

A threat or a prank?

In September 2006, as the school year kicked off, a black Jena High School student asked the vice principal if he and some friends could sit under an oak tree where the white students typically congregated.

Told by the vice principal they could sit wherever they pleased, the student and his pals plopped down under the sprawling branches of a shade tree in the campus courtyard.

The next day, students arrived at school to find three nooses hanging from those branches.

"I seen them hanging. I'm thinking the KKK, you know, were hanging nooses. They want to hang somebody. Real nooses, the ones you see on TV, are the kind of nooses they were," Robert Bailey, 17, one of the Jena 6, told the syndicated radio show "Democracy Now!"

According to The Town Talk in nearby Alexandria, the school's principal recommended expulsion for those behind the nooses. Instead, the newspaper reported, a school district committee overruled the recommendation and suspended three white students for three days for hanging the nooses, a gesture written off as a "prank."

"Toilet paper, that's a prank, you know what I'm saying?" Bailey told the radio show. "Nooses hanging there -- nooses ain't no prank."

A series of scuffles ensued over the next three months as racial tension at the school became palpable.

The district attorney was summoned to address the student body. Off-campus fights were reported. Bailey said he had a beer bottle broken over his head in one incident, a shotgun pulled on him in another.

On November 30, someone torched the school's main academic building. The arson remains unsolved, but many suspect it's linked to the discord strangling Jena High.

The attack

Four days after the arson, several students jumped a white classmate, Justin Barker, knocking him unconscious before stomping and kicking him.

Parents of the Jena Six say they heard Barker was hurling racial epithets. Barker's parents say he did nothing to provoke the beating.

Barker was taken to the hospital with injuries to both eyes and ears, as well as cuts. His right eye had blood clots, said his mother, Kelli Barker. Justin Barker was treated and released that day.

Bell, Bailey, Theo Shaw, Carwin Jones, Bryant Purvis and an unidentified juvenile -- all black teens -- were arrested and charged with attempted murder. The weapons used, according to the charges -- shoes. Their bails were set at between $70,000 and $138,000.

Only Bell remains in jail, on a $90,000 bond, and the judge has refused to lower it, citing Bell's criminal record, which includes four juvenile offenses -- two simple battery charges among them.

Read the rest here:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/09/04/bell.jena.six/index.html

Medvedenko

09-04-2007, 11:46 AM

Tragic indeed....

101A

09-04-2007, 01:01 PM

Marklar MM

09-04-2007, 01:44 PM

from a previous article on the subject...

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74795&highlight=jena

On Friday night, December 1, a black student who showed up at a white party was beaten by whites. On Saturday, December 2, a young white man pulled out a shotgun in a confrontation with young black men at the Gotta Go convenience store outside Jena before the men wrestled it away from him. The black men who took the shotgun away were later arrested, no charges were filed against the white man.

On Monday, December 4, at Jena High, a white student - who allegedly had been making racial taunts, including calling African American students "######s" while supporting the students who hung the nooses and who beat up the black student at the off-campus party - was knocked down, punched and kicked by black students. The white victim was taken to the hospital treated and released. He attended a social function that evening.

TLWisfoine

09-09-2007, 01:20 AM

Typical, and people wonder why there's a disproportionate number of black people in prison.

Oh, Gee!!

09-20-2007, 09:50 AM

UPDATE:

Thousands rally to support 'Jena 6'

JENA, Louisiana (CNN) -- Thousands of protesters gathered in Jena, Louisiana, Thursday to show support for the "Jena 6," six black teens charged in the beating of a white classmate.

Thursday was the day Mychal Bell expected to find out his punishment for his alleged role in the school beating.

"This is a march for justice. This is not a march against whites or against Jena," said the Rev. Al Sharpton, a civil rights activist and one of the protest organizers.

Sharpton called Jena the beginning of the 21st century civil rights movement.

"[The Rev. Martin Luther] King went to Selma. That wasn't the only place you couldn't vote. That was the point of action," Sharpton said. "They went to Birmingham. That wasn't the only place we didn't have public accommodations. It was the point of action.

"Jena is a point of action for the Jenas everywhere," Sharpton said.

"There's a Jena in every state," the Rev. Jesse Jackson told the crowd in Jena on Thursday morning.

JoAnn Scales, who brought her three teenage children on a two-day bus journey from Los Angeles to Jena, made the same point.

"The reason I brought my children is because it could have been one of them" involved in an incident like the one in Jena.

more:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/09/20/jena.six/index.html

johnsmith

09-20-2007, 09:54 AM

I understand that people are pissed that the punishment is too harsh, but I still think what is lost in this is that six kids beat up one kid, and badly at that.

What a bunch of pussies..........what'd you need six for?

They should have tasered him and gotten it over with.

Oh, Gee!!

09-20-2007, 09:58 AM

what'd you need six for?

some people just need to get their butt kicked by six guys.

samikeyp

09-20-2007, 10:05 AM

Seems a bit stiff, but sounds like they beat the crap out of that kid.

The White kids should have gotten a stiffer penalty, obviously, for the nooses; but beating somebody that severely, when not in self defense, can't be ignored. Dude, apparently, has other assaults on his record.

Tragic, yes.

Miscarriage of justice that this violent individual is still locked up? I don't know.

I would have to agree. I think attempted murder is too harsh of a charge. Those kids who hung those nooses and thought its just a prank should see some time in the hole as well. You don't screw around like that especially in the south. I'm sorry though, six kids beating the crap out of one kids deserves punishment also.

It just proves the theory about the pussy-fication of today's youth. Back in the day, if you had a problem with someone, you and that person went somewhere, beat the crap out of each other one on one and it was over. Now you have kids with guns and knives and walking around in packs because they are too scared to face an issue alone. The sad thing is, adults are the biggest reason behind this. Too many "time outs" and not enough actual punishment.

monosylab1k

09-20-2007, 10:15 AM

I understand that people are pissed that the punishment is too harsh, but I still think what is lost in this is that six kids beat up one kid, and badly at that.
He got released the same day and went to a party that night....how badly could they have really beaten him up?

samikeyp

09-20-2007, 10:17 AM

He got released the same day and went to a party that night....how badly could they have really beaten him up?

true...but still 6 on 1?

Weak.

If you can't handle your business one on one, you are a pussy.

monosylab1k

09-20-2007, 10:18 AM

true...but still 6 on 1?

Weak.

If you can't handle your business one on one, you are a pussy.
No doubt about that. But if this kid was really the racist prick he appears to be, then he deserved alot more than a mild 6-on-1 beatdown.

monosylab1k

09-20-2007, 10:20 AM

Fuckin' Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson.......goddammit those assholes make it so fucking difficult for any progress to be made. They need to be as far away from this as possible. All they do is make shit worse.

samikeyp

09-20-2007, 10:21 AM

No doubt about that. But if this kid was really the racist prick he appears to be, then he deserved alot more than a mild 6-on-1 beatdown.

I agree with that.

Sounds like this case is a lot of hearsay on both sides.

Fuckin' Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson.......goddammit those assholes make it so fucking difficult for any progress to be made.

Amen.

They seem to hinder these causes, not hurt them.

clambake

09-20-2007, 10:21 AM

I only watch Fox news. No mention of any rally. I could have blinked and missed it, but not likely. What kind of people are at this "supposed" rally?

if it's not on fox, then it's not "newsworthy".

monosylab1k

09-20-2007, 10:22 AM

I only watch Fox news. No mention of any rally. I could have blinked and missed it, but not likely. What kind of people are at this "supposed" rally?

if it's not on fox, then it's not "newsworthy".
it's about black people so i'm not surprised fox news ignored it.

samikeyp

09-20-2007, 10:23 AM

it's about black people so i'm not surprised fox news ignored it.

You mean, Fox isn't impartial?

:)

monosylab1k

09-20-2007, 10:24 AM

I agree with that.

Sounds like this case is a lot of hearsay on both sides.
the bottom line is they assaulted somebody. now the circumstances should definitely be a deciding factor in the punishment, but an assault still happened. and if there's any other retaliations then the punishment should be incredibly severe from here on out.

clambake

09-20-2007, 10:26 AM

i don't want hear a bunch a bitchin from a shit loada them spooks.

we need yoni to run'em off.

samikeyp

09-20-2007, 10:26 AM

the bottom line is they assaulted somebody. now the circumstances should definitely be a deciding factor in the punishment, but an assault still happened. and if there's any other retaliations then the punishment should be incredibly severe from here on out

agreed. I would also like them to get those dumbasses who thought it was funny to hang nooses and see them in the pokey for a bit.

johnsmith

09-20-2007, 10:39 AM

I only watch Fox news.

Are you serious?

clambake

09-20-2007, 10:45 AM

Are you serious?
hell yeah. they tell it like i like to hear it.

johnsmith

09-20-2007, 11:09 AM

hell yeah. they tell it like i like to hear it.

Alright, I got the sarcasm.
Seriously though, do you really only watch Fox news?

clambake

09-20-2007, 11:12 AM

Alright, I got the sarcasm.
Seriously though, do you really only watch Fox news?
only when i'm looking for amusement. i need my dose of billo, rush. ann and michelle malkin to get through the day.

johnsmith

09-20-2007, 11:15 AM

only when i'm looking for amusement. i need my dose of billo, rush. ann and michelle malkin to get through the day.

I always think that shit is funny how we do that to ourselves. Pick your least favorite politician or talk show host and inevitably, we watch it.

Fuck, look at this website for example, you and I agree on pretty much nothing and yet I'm always sure to read your takes.

Wonder why we do this to ourselves?

clambake

09-20-2007, 11:20 AM

i don't read your shit.

we're not having this conversation.

Holt's Cat

09-20-2007, 11:45 AM

Holt's Cat

09-20-2007, 11:56 AM

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5150610.html

Findog

09-20-2007, 11:59 AM

No doubt about that. But if this kid was really the racist prick he appears to be, then he deserved alot more than a mild 6-on-1 beatdown.

You don't get to fight fire with fire. You don't get to exact vigilante justice. I agree with samikeyp, the black kids should receive some punishment but the charges were excessive. I'm glad that the black community is protesting the excessive charges, but these kids aren't heros or worthy of admiration, nor should their behavior be excused on grounds that they were baited by some redneck mouthbreathers. The kid that got beaten up was a teenager. I hope he gets some punishment too for intimidation tactics, but a 17-yr-old doenst deserve to get jumped for being ignorant.

101A

09-20-2007, 12:02 PM

The beating victim, Justin Barker, was knocked unconscious, his face badly swollen and bloodied, though he was able to attend a school function later that night.

And this matters why?

There are probably plenty of worthy causes, and people to take up for in this country. Taking up for 6 people (4 adults!) who beat the crap out of another is not one of those causes!

Holt's Cat

09-20-2007, 12:03 PM

The leadership at the high school certainly doesn't seem to have a solid grip on things, that's for certain. Then again, it's in a rural Louisiana town with a population of 3,000.

monosylab1k

09-20-2007, 12:04 PM

You don't get to fight fire with fire. You don't get to exact vigilante justice. I agree with samikeyp, the black kids should receive some punishment but the charges were excessive. I'm glad that the black community is protesting the excessive charges, but these kids aren't heros or worthy of admiration, nor should their behavior be excused on grounds that they were baited by some redneck mouthbreathers. The kid that got beaten up was a teenager. I hope he gets some punishment too for intimidation tactics, but a 17-yr-old doenst deserve to get jumped for being ignorant.
Where did i ever say anything contrary to this? I said the assault charges ought to stick and they should get some sort of punishment. Did you read that far?

All I said was that if he was doing the racist shit he is accused of, then he deserved to get his ass beat. There's a lot of people who deserve to get their ass beat. Doesn't mean people should actually go do it. And I didn't say the people who did do it should go unpunished for a very obvious breaking of the law.

101A

09-20-2007, 12:05 PM

You don't get to fight fire with fire. You don't get to exact vigilante justice. I agree with samikeyp, the black kids should receive some punishment but the charges were excessive.

The attempted murder charges have been dropped; they are charged with battery now, if I'm understanding the state of things now. What would you be happy with? Reckless endangerment?

I hope he gets some punishment too for intimidation tactics,

According to the DA, he didn't break any law in Louisiana. Should they make one up?

Holt's Cat

09-20-2007, 12:05 PM

Only Bell remains in jail, on a $90,000 bond, and the judge has refused to lower it, citing Bell's criminal record, which includes four juvenile offenses -- two simple battery charges among them.

And I'm sure it was all about his race in those prior brushes with the law.

If the school district knows who hung those nooses then obviously they should at a minimum be suspended from the high school for a good amount of time. Also, surely there is some state law that could be found to charge them under.

La Niña

09-20-2007, 12:08 PM

The district knows.

The principal wanted to expel the three involved.

The super overruled and they got like a three-day suspension. BFD.

ChumpDumper

09-20-2007, 12:10 PM

BFD.Apparently, it is now.

2centsworth

09-20-2007, 12:11 PM

The action and punishment associated with the hanging of a noose should be totally independent of what the black kids did and vice versa.

The so called black leaders are a tragic joke.

ChumpDumper

09-20-2007, 12:15 PM

Today's protest had been planned to coincide with Bell's sentencing, but organizers decided to press ahead even after the conviction was thrown out. Bell remains jailed while prosecutors prepare an appeal. He has been unable to meet the $90,000 bond.I think it's funny and telling that these thousands of protesters and "leaders" haven't bothered to take up a collection to get these guys out on bail.

Findog

09-20-2007, 01:17 PM

The attempted murder charges have been dropped; they are charged with battery now, if I'm understanding the state of things now. What would you be happy with? Reckless endangerment?

Preferably short of attempted murder. I'm happy with that. Don't care for the political grandstanding by Jesse and Al.

According to the DA, he didn't break any law in Louisiana. Should they make one up?[/QUOTE]

Harrassment?

johnsmith

09-20-2007, 01:23 PM

i don't read your shit.

we're not having this conversation.

:lol

Sorry about that.

Your kids are mutants......

Better?

ChumpDumper

09-20-2007, 02:13 PM

Seriously, no one thought about passing the plate?
http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20070920/capt.692ca50b3f3047e4b5b3780ed02f219b.school_fight _laff117.jpg

No really, just a couple of bucks from each of you and he could be out of jail, meeting and talking to his "supporters."
http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20070920/capt.f127ec8b6c7147b4b719b02c8b3e1610.school_fight _laff106.jpg

Proceeds from the sale go to whom?
http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20070919/capt.9d75be5a846a434f8dd7207a1791948a.school_fight _laab101.jpg

Support the Jena 6 or your local FastSigns? To be fair, these might be leftovers from another protest:
http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20070920/capt.ec05a80f002c4c558a38a184945c6016.school_fight _laab113.jpg

I guess there may be some law against raising money for a bailout, but I'll choose to be indignant until someone confirms it for me.

Jamtas#2

09-20-2007, 02:17 PM

I think it's funny and telling that these thousands of protesters and "leaders" haven't bothered to take up a collection to get these guys out on bail.

That is a great point. I agree.

clambake

09-20-2007, 02:35 PM

how bout kanye west or fitty or ophrah or bill cosby or prince or will smith or aunt Jemimah or mrs. butterworths

i woulda said michael jackson but.....

spurster

09-20-2007, 02:44 PM

You mean, Fox isn't impartial?

:)

Fox is "fair" (meaning "white") and "balanced" (meaning "equivalent").

Condemned 2 HelLA

09-20-2007, 02:49 PM

Fox is "fair" (meaning "white") and "balanced" (meaning "equivalent").

If by "fair" you mean "Right" and by "balanced" you mean "biased", then yes, you are correct.

clambake

09-20-2007, 03:59 PM

did you see the guys walking around with nooses wrapped around the heads of stuffed dogs?

guess they hadn't heard of the michael vick thing.

Nbadan

09-20-2007, 04:30 PM

There is more to this story...

A few days later, the entire black student body protested the no-nothing 'punishment' and sat under "the white tree". That day the white District Attorney came to Jena High School for an impromptu assembly, with back-up law enforcement. It has been reported that the DA threatened the silent black students who were sitting under the tree, saying if the did not stop making a fuss about the "innocent prank...I can be your best friend or your worst enemy. I can take away your lives with a stroke of my pen." The school was then put on lockdown for the remaining week.

Thursday night, November 30th, 2006, a fire burned down the main academic building of Jena High School. This incident is still unresolved.

Friday night, December 1st, a black student was beaten by a group of white students at a "white party".

Saturday, December 2nd, at the Gotta Go convenience store, the black student who was beaten up the night before, along with his friends, ran into one of the white students who beat him. A confrontation broke out and the white student went to his vehicle to get his shotgun. The black students wrestled the shotgun away from him and brought it to the police department and told them of the incident. The black students were arrested for stealing the gun. The white student was not charged.

Jenna Six timeline (http://jenasix.org/timeline.html)

ChumpDumper

09-20-2007, 04:33 PM

So all these events are documented, right?

Nbadan

09-20-2007, 04:51 PM

So all these events are documented, right?

go look on smoking gun...

Holt's Cat

09-20-2007, 04:55 PM

go look on smoking gun...

Why can't you post the link?

ChumpDumper

09-20-2007, 04:56 PM

go look on smoking gun...All the "Jena" search term got was Al Unser Jr.'s domestic violence arrest.

I'll ask again -- all this is documented, right?

Holt's Cat

09-20-2007, 04:57 PM

I guess he meant The Globe, no?

Nbadan

09-20-2007, 05:24 PM

..because the National Enquirer was never right...

:rolleyes

Extra Stout

09-20-2007, 06:11 PM

So all these events are documented, right?
Those incidents have been on the record for months.

The reason this case is a problem is not because some black kids should get away with beating up a white kid without punishment. They deserve punishment. The problem is that the narrative reveals a series of events where whites engaging in bad behavior (nooses, assaulting blacks, aiming firearms at blacks) either were not punished or had their punishments reduced, while blacks engaging in bad behavior got grossly trumped-up charges pressed against them. It's called differential prosecution on account of race, it was standard practice in the Deep South during the Jim Crow era, and apparently also in central Louisiana today. It is a federal crime under civil rights law, though a difficult one to prosecute.

ChumpDumper

09-20-2007, 06:15 PM

Those incidents have been on the record for months.Then they'll be easy to link. I'm new to the story and just want to see independent confirmation.

ChumpDumper

09-20-2007, 06:22 PM

I have another question. Aren't these public officials being discussed popularly elected in the parish?

Couldn't they just be voted out of office by the 80+% black population?

Holt's Cat

09-20-2007, 06:25 PM

I have another question. Aren't these public officials being discussed popularly elected in the parish?

Couldn't they just be voted out of office by the 80+% black population?

Apparently the road to change here in 2007 leads to media friendly protests and not the ballot box. I have the feeling that soon enough we will be seeing reports that African-American high school students in Jena have to sit in the back of the bus...

Holt's Cat

09-20-2007, 06:29 PM

I'm not sure if this is a story of stupidity or gullibility. Perhaps both.

Marklar MM

09-20-2007, 06:30 PM

I have another question. Aren't these public officials being discussed popularly elected in the parish?

Couldn't they just be voted out of office by the 80+% black population?

Jena is 85% white. La Salle Parish which Jena is located in is 86% white.

ChumpDumper

09-20-2007, 06:32 PM

Jena is 85% white. La Salle Parish which Jena is located in is 86% white.Sorry, I got the numbers transposed when I saw the graphic on TV. Thanks.

If these patterns can indeed be proven, fine. I still don't get why the kid is still in jail.

Holt's Cat

09-20-2007, 06:35 PM

If these patterns can indeed be proven, fine. I still don't get why the kid is still in jail.

This is his 4th or 5th run in with the law, apparently.

Holt's Cat

09-20-2007, 06:38 PM

Jesse and Al don't have $90K in their pockets, I guess.

ChumpDumper

09-20-2007, 06:39 PM

Then, in December, a white student was beaten up by six black schoolmates outside the school gymnasium. The black students were charged with attempted murder.

Eventually, those charges were reduced to offenses such as aggravated battery. In June, Bell was found guilty of second-degree battery charges.So is this still too harsh?

Holt's Cat

09-20-2007, 06:41 PM

So is this still too harsh?

Hey, it involves a noose.

TLWisfoine

09-20-2007, 07:12 PM

The noose, synomous with racial vigilante "justice" in the South for almost a century, is now cited as the rationale for racial vigilante "justice" today.

Since when does "they started it" become a proper defense for assault and battery?

It's not hard in the South to find dumb whites who do stupid racially charged things. I'm not sure these random episodes are worthy of national attention today.

This is like beating your head up against a wall. Nobody's trying to say that their actions were justified. What people are protesting is the differential prosecution on account of race and if you don't see that well it speaks volumes about you.

TLWisfoine

09-20-2007, 07:19 PM

And this matters why?

There are probably plenty of worthy causes, and people to take up for in this country. Taking up for 6 people (4 adults!) who beat the crap out of another is not one of those causes!

Do you know what aggravated assault is? I think if those 6 boys really wanted to kill him or do him great bodily harm he would not be able to attend any function that night.

This issue is so much bigger than those 6 boys. If differential prosecution on account of race can happen to them, then it can happen to anybody.

Holt's Cat

09-20-2007, 08:40 PM

Kriz-Maxima

09-20-2007, 09:10 PM

If those six kids had been white they would had gotten a slap on the wrist and told "boys will be boys".

braeden0613

09-21-2007, 12:12 AM

If those six kids had been white they would had gotten a slap on the wrist and told "boys will be boys".
I doubt it. Especially if they beat up a black student. Even this school's administration couldnt have covered that up.

SodaPoop

09-21-2007, 12:23 AM

Do you know what aggravated assault is? I think if those 6 boys really wanted to kill him or do him great bodily harm he would not be able to attend any function that night.

They beat him until he was unconscious then a bystander broke it up. I'm tired of the black "community" crying and rallying behind criminals. :fro

free mumia
free oj
free stanley tookie williams
free mike vick
black quaterbacks are treated unfairly
juneteenth violence

ahhhh righteous movements

Wild Cobra

09-21-2007, 01:55 AM

TLWisfoine

09-21-2007, 09:46 AM

I think the major points that were not brought up are:

1) The shotgun carried by the white was being used as self defense, yet he didn't shoot, and had it taken away from him anyway.

2) The kid that was beaten was still beaten after he was unconscious. He could have been killed. That is why the stiffer charges were brought. If they stopped after he was down, things would be so much different.

Now I assume there are still some pretty deep racial tension there, but when you hear all the facts, did the punishments match the crimes? As far as I know from everything I heard, they do.

Provokative actions were taken by both sides. However, th first amendment protects such actions also.

1. Self defense against whom, any and all blacks he sees. Also I'll try to remember that you can only defend yourself once you've been shot at.

2. Then tell me why the white kids who did the same to another white kid only got a misdemeanor assault charge, that person could have been killed.
You are really coming off as somebody that supports differential prosecution on account of race.

xrayzebra

09-21-2007, 09:59 AM

I am quite sure we all have the full story on what occured in
Jenna. I just know we have. The media, Jesse and the other
groups would be sure to give us the un-slanted truth of the
matter.

On the surface it looks like the criminal justice system failed.
It was a fist fight, unfair, but not unusual, I am sure worst
happens here in SA on a weekly basis. There seems to be
lots we don't know.

101A

09-21-2007, 10:10 AM

Do you know what aggravated assault is? I think if those 6 boys really wanted to kill him or do him great bodily harm he would not be able to attend any function that night.

This issue is so much bigger than those 6 boys. If differential prosecution on account of race can happen to them, then it can happen to anybody.

You can get aggravated assault for less than knocking somebody out, which is what happened here. The boys recovery time is irrelevant, IMO, although it sure seems to get people worked up.

This thread is the first I have read of a similar circumstance being treated differently (ie. a group of white thugs beat up a black kid); it that happened, and those white boys weren't arrested, then they should have been. Doesn't mean the black thugs should be let off easy.

Oh, Gee!!

09-21-2007, 10:17 AM

This thread is the first I have read of a similar circumstance being treated differently (ie. a group of white thugs beat up a black kid); it that happened, and those white boys weren't arrested, then they should have been. Doesn't mean the black thugs should be let off easy.

nothing happens in a vacuum.

TLWisfoine

09-21-2007, 10:24 AM

You can get aggravated assault for less than knocking somebody out, which is what happened here. The boys recovery time is irrelevant, IMO, although it sure seems to get people worked up.

This thread is the first I have read of a similar circumstance being treated differently (ie. a group of white thugs beat up a black kid); it that happened, and those white boys weren't arrested, then they should have been. Doesn't mean the black thugs should be let off easy.

That is what has people angry for the most part, not whether or not these boys should be punished.

clambake

09-21-2007, 10:32 AM

relations are not likely to improve between these 2 groups.

sunni and shia of the south.

101A

09-21-2007, 10:52 AM

That is what has people angry for the most part, not whether or not these boys should be punished.

REALLY hard to find details on the black kid that was beaten up - how many people were involved, and the extent of his injuries. I've seen the party that he got beaten up at as a "All White Off-Campus Party" by pro- Jena 6 sites, and as a "Private Birthday Party" by another site. The kid that was beaten up, however, is recognized as being one of the Jena 6.

That said, the differential prosecution argument certainly appears to apply in that case, but all I am seeing reported is the noose incident as the instigation for all that transpired.

Oh, Gee!!

09-21-2007, 01:25 PM

Were Xray and WC in Louisiana?

Two arrested in noose incident near Jena, Louisiana

ALEXANDRIA, Louisiana (CNN) -- A Louisiana city that hosted many of the "Jena 6" protesters Thursday became the site of a racially charged incident of its own.

Authorities in Alexandria, less than 40 miles southwest of Jena, arrested two people who were driving a red pickup Thursday night with two nooses hanging off the back, repeatedly passing groups of demonstrators who were waiting for buses back to their home states.

The marchers had taken part in the huge protests in Jena that accused authorities there of injustice in the handling of racially charged cases -- including the hanging of nooses in a tree after a group of black students sat in an area where traditionally only white students sat.

The driver of the red truck, whom Alexandria police identified as Jeremiah Munsen, 18, was charged with contributing to the delinquency of a minor -- a reference to the 16-year-old passenger. Munsen also was charged with driving while intoxicated and inciting to riot, according to the police report.

more:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/21/car.nooses/index.html

ChumpDumper

09-21-2007, 03:13 PM

Ok, now they're saying no bail for this kid now that he's being tried as a minor.

:wtf

xrayzebra

09-21-2007, 03:46 PM

Wild Cobra

09-21-2007, 05:47 PM

Now I sorted through more than 30 links on this issue, and came up with a few things.

The White kids should have gotten a stiffer penalty, obviously, for the nooses; but beating somebody that severely, when not in self defense, can't be ignored. Dude, apparently, has other assaults on his record.

Yes, Mychal Bell was already on probation. The nooses could have been tried as a hate crime, but nobody pursued that angle.

He got released the same day and went to a party that night....how badly could they have really beaten him up?

After about 3 hours in the hospital. This was an important event for Justin Barker. It was the school ceremony giving out the class rings. Not a party. He had a concussion and one eye swollen shut, besides other injuries.

This is like beating your head up against a wall. Nobody's trying to say that their actions were justified. What people are protesting is the differential prosecution on account of race and if you don't see that well it speaks volumes about you

That's what they say, but the evidence does not bear out that things are being treated other than by severity of the crime.

The noose can be prosecuted as a hate crime. However, you must show in the burden of proof that it was meant to racially intimidate. Under the circumstances and history of the events, it appears the black students were purposely pushing issues. If they were the initial troublemakers, then the noose could be a statement to anger then and even intimidate them. However, can it be proved it wasn't just a prank? Some blame the school officials for not reporting it as a crime to the police. Even a black teacher, Anthony Jackson, is quoted as jokingly saying "I jokingly said to another teacher, 'One's for you, one's for me. Who's the other one for?'" Why didn't the parents report this incident to the police? Apparently, nobody really took it real serious other than the recommended expulsion.

Now probably the biggest thing that escalated this whole thing came from a black activist, Caseptla Bailey, Robert Bailey Jr's mother! She said "It meant the KKK, it meant '######s we're going to kill you, we're gonna hang you 'til you die'." I find these activists that like to keep the racial tensions going. Look at the way she must have raised her son. Always someone else’s fault.

As for the nooses, it is said that that really wasn't the catalyst. There seems to be tension between these people anyway. The night of the party seems to be the starting point. This was a invitation only party prior to the Ring Ceremony. Robert Bailey decided to crash it. Nobody was letting him in, and after he managed to get inside somehow. He was assaulted by others. He was unwelcome, and in essence, broke in. It was not on school grounds, and again, a private event. Another fight broke out, just outside, where one white adult was charged.

The next day, a Barker and Bailey had an altercation outside a convenience store. They each told police the other was the aggressor, but an eye witness said Bailey and his friends were the instigators. That is why Bailey was charged with the theft of the gun, and no charges for Barker protecting himself. Bailey was not arrested after bringing the weapon to the police. He took it home with him, effectively stealing it.

The incident where Barker is beaten has eye witnesses saying he was attacked from behind and fell. He was unconscious at this point and they continued to beat him. Testimony has the following:

"When I heard a black boy say something to Justin, I turned my head and I saw somebody hit Justin," one student wrote in a statement. "He fell in between the gym door and the concrete barricade. I saw Robert Bailey kneel down and punch Justin in the head. ... Then Carwin Jones kicked him in the head. ... Theo Shaw tried to kick him so I pushed Theo Shaw down. I also saw Mychal Bell standing over him."

Phrases like "stomped him badly," "stepped on his face," "knocked out cold on the ground," and "slammed his head on the concrete beam" were used by the students in their statements.

All Barker could say about it:

"I turned my back and somebody hit me, that's all I remember,"

Now I really get pissed at the way the media says things. "All white jury." You know why? None of the blacks called for jury duty showed up! "White Tree" Was it actually designated this, or was it dubbed that for this story? We all had our own circle of friends we hung out with. That doesn't make it a racial thing. We all had our preferred places to congregate. That doesn't mean ownership. This is why I go back and think that the incident at the tree was first perpetrated by the blacks. We don't know for sure, but they probably set out to intentionally harass the whites there. I believe that because of the facts that followed the incident.

clambake

09-21-2007, 07:06 PM

blacks vs whites, you think we should revoke their freedom? would that teach'em?

damn blekx

Extra Stout

09-21-2007, 10:46 PM

"White Tree" Was it actually designated this, or was it dubbed that for this story? We all had our own circle of friends we hung out with. That doesn't make it a racial thing. We all had our preferred places to congregate. That doesn't mean ownership. This is why I go back and think that the incident at the tree was first perpetrated by the blacks. We don't know for sure, but they probably set out to intentionally harass the whites there. I believe that because of the facts that followed the incident.
Please just stop rationalizing this crap. Either up in Oregon you are so far removed from the reality of racial attitudes in rural central Louisiana that it completely escapes your comprehension, or you are being an apologist for it. I have distant cousins in Jena -- a lot of them, really, because inbeeding is prevalent there. Most of them are vile racist slime. It is a town where white people still tell n****r jokes to one another in passing the way normal people might tell Aggie jokes or talk about what was on TV last night. It is a place where a horrible excuse for a human being called my great uncle made me take off a David Robinson T-shirt I was wearing before letting me in his house because he didn't want n*****s being "glorified" in his house, and besides what kind of parents did I have to be raising me to be a n*****-lover like that? (He worked for the state insurance board, all 400 lbs. and nine teeth of him, and did quite well thanks to graft and bribery.) It is a place where a cousin chose to commute to college rather than have to live around black people in a dorm, at least before she got pregnant and dropped out.

And no, these aren't isolated cases. You could go to the local pool or to a store downtown, and the topic of conversation is probably how inferior them n*****s are and how them Yankee queers with their civil rights done screwed up the whole country.

THAT is Jena, Lousiana. It is everything the worst stereotypes say it is. It is a bastion of Jim Crow white supremacism. I'm sorry if that doesn't fit into your cloistered "racism is just black people playing the victim" narrative. In some places, 1964 hasn't come yet.

TLWisfoine

09-21-2007, 11:41 PM

Now I sorted through more than 30 links on this issue, and came up with a few things.

Yes, Mychal Bell was already on probation. The nooses could have been tried as a hate crime, but nobody pursued that angle.

After about 3 hours in the hospital. This was an important event for Justin Barker. It was the school ceremony giving out the class rings. Not a party. He had a concussion and one eye swollen shut, besides other injuries.

That's what they say, but the evidence does not bear out that things are being treated other than by severity of the crime.

The noose can be prosecuted as a hate crime. However, you must show in the burden of proof that it was meant to racially intimidate. Under the circumstances and history of the events, it appears the black students were purposely pushing issues. If they were the initial troublemakers, then the noose could be a statement to anger then and even intimidate them. However, can it be proved it wasn't just a prank? Some blame the school officials for not reporting it as a crime to the police. Even a black teacher, Anthony Jackson, is quoted as jokingly saying "I jokingly said to another teacher, 'One's for you, one's for me. Who's the other one for?'" Why didn't the parents report this incident to the police? Apparently, nobody really took it real serious other than the recommended expulsion.

Now probably the biggest thing that escalated this whole thing came from a black activist, Caseptla Bailey, Robert Bailey Jr's mother! She said "It meant the KKK, it meant '######s we're going to kill you, we're gonna hang you 'til you die'." I find these activists that like to keep the racial tensions going. Look at the way she must have raised her son. Always someone else’s fault.

As for the nooses, it is said that that really wasn't the catalyst. There seems to be tension between these people anyway. The night of the party seems to be the starting point. This was a invitation only party prior to the Ring Ceremony. Robert Bailey decided to crash it. Nobody was letting him in, and after he managed to get inside somehow. He was assaulted by others. He was unwelcome, and in essence, broke in. It was not on school grounds, and again, a private event. Another fight broke out, just outside, where one white adult was charged.

The next day, a Barker and Bailey had an altercation outside a convenience store. They each told police the other was the aggressor, but an eye witness said Bailey and his friends were the instigators. That is why Bailey was charged with the theft of the gun, and no charges for Barker protecting himself. Bailey was not arrested after bringing the weapon to the police. He took it home with him, effectively stealing it.

The incident where Barker is beaten has eye witnesses saying he was attacked from behind and fell. He was unconscious at this point and they continued to beat him. Testimony has the following:

"When I heard a black boy say something to Justin, I turned my head and I saw somebody hit Justin," one student wrote in a statement. "He fell in between the gym door and the concrete barricade. I saw Robert Bailey kneel down and punch Justin in the head. ... Then Carwin Jones kicked him in the head. ... Theo Shaw tried to kick him so I pushed Theo Shaw down. I also saw Mychal Bell standing over him."

Phrases like "stomped him badly," "stepped on his face," "knocked out cold on the ground," and "slammed his head on the concrete beam" were used by the students in their statements.

All Barker could say about it:

"I turned my back and somebody hit me, that's all I remember,"

Now I really get pissed at the way the media says things. "All white jury." You know why? None of the blacks called for jury duty showed up! "White Tree" Was it actually designated this, or was it dubbed that for this story? We all had our own circle of friends we hung out with. That doesn't make it a racial thing. We all had our preferred places to congregate. That doesn't mean ownership. This is why I go back and think that the incident at the tree was first perpetrated by the blacks. We don't know for sure, but they probably set out to intentionally harass the whites there. I believe that because of the facts that followed the incident.

I stopped reading this when you said that the noose incident was nothing more than a prank. Anyone who tries to rationalize the hanging of a damn noose in a tree, especially in the south as a prank, has to be A. one of the most ignorant people alive or B. an apoligist for racists.

So which one is it WC?

Wild Cobra

09-22-2007, 05:44 AM

I stopped reading this when you said that the noose incident was nothing more than a prank.
I never said that. Did you pass English?

Anyone who tries to rationalize the hanging of a damn noose in a tree, especially in the south as a prank, has to be A. one of the most ignorant people alive or B. an apoligist for racists.

I never tried to rationalize it. I pointed out possibilities, and the difficulty of proving it was other than a prank. That's OK. I see you must have failed English. I'm sorry I didn't use words that a third grader could understand.

So which one is it WC?

Just re-read my statements. I am really getting sick and tired of clearly making points and being misunderstood. If you think I'm being to harsh, then get a clue. Buy a dictionary.

If I tried to rationalize the noose, I would have pointed out that the nooses were laid out by members of a rodeo team. They might have been just smart asses and laid out lasso's rather than nooses, and others may have mistook them for nooses. Nothing said otherwise, now was there?

No, I didn't try to rationalize it because I believe they did intentionally intimidate with nooses. I just don't know it as fact. Considering no charges were brought for what is legally a hate crime, it could be just that… lassos!

Wild Cobra

09-22-2007, 06:01 AM

Please just stop rationalizing this crap...
I'll take your word for it that it is still a racist hell hole. That aside, are you saying the points I made are not factual? There is definate differences in the severity of the crimes.

You know, I spent most my social growing years in two locations. Newberg, OR from 1968 to 1973, and The Dalles, OR from 1973 to 1981. All the blacks I knew were like us. They talked like us, were our friend, and we had no racial devides that I could dicern. Things really changed for me when I joined the Army in 1981. I was around a bunch of vile black individuals that I could not stand being around. I never had prejudice of blacks before, but I did develope some then. Not racism, but prejudice. There is a difference. However, my initial instincts about people changed to the way they talked. I have learned since that most people who didlike blacks, dislike them for the way they carry themselves and act in society. Not because they are black.

Now I know things are different in other places. Still, it seems obvious to me that both sides in Jena escalated the situations. A fight is a fight, but when someone is enough of an animal to continue to beat an unconscience person... What can I say. I see no place for that person in a civilized society. They belong in prison, or on death row. Race aside, they are evil and need to be removed from society, white or black.

MannyIsGod

09-22-2007, 07:32 AM

Wild Cobra

09-22-2007, 08:33 AM

LOL there is too much shit to read here than I care too, but I'm laughing my ass off at the argument that 3 hours in a hospital is something that indicates the severity of a beating. Have you ever been in emergency room? 2 hours is just fucking waiting!
This is true, however, did you skip the part of the concussion? X-rays, maybe an MRI, and other checks would have been performed. One of the articles gave a dollar amount of the visit too. I don't remember the cost, but it wasn't chump change. Happening during school hours, the emergency room probably wasn’t as busy as it would be around midnight or later. He was probably seen and treated right away. I would guess an extra couple hours were for observation.

Yonivore

09-22-2007, 09:23 AM

LOL there is too much shit to read here than I care too, but I'm laughing my ass off at the argument that 3 hours in a hospital is something that indicates the severity of a beating. Have you ever been in emergency room? 2 hours is just fucking waiting!
I'm laughing my ass off because you seem to believe the severity of an injury mitigates the assailant's intent. Attempted murder can be committed without any injury being inflicted.

xrayzebra

09-22-2007, 10:15 AM

Does anyone notice something in all these post. It is the "I am
so concerned" bunch who does the deciding. They are the ones
who see all the racism. And it seems they are the ones who
practice the racism. It must be nice to be a liberal/progress/dimm
and have all those good feelings. Guess that is how they
justify their outlook. Obviously in their estimation the white
folks in Jena are all bad and spend most of their time planning
on how they are going to keep the black race down.

TLWisfoine

09-22-2007, 02:38 PM

I'll take your word for it that it is still a racist hell hole. That aside, are you saying the points I made are not factual? There is definate differences in the severity of the crimes.

You know, I spent most my social growing years in two locations. Newberg, OR from 1968 to 1973, and The Dalles, OR from 1973 to 1981. All the blacks I knew were like us. They talked like us, were our friend, and we had no racial devides that I could dicern. Things really changed for me when I joined the Army in 1981. I was around a bunch of vile black individuals that I could not stand being around. I never had prejudice of blacks before, but I did develope some then. Not racism, but prejudice. There is a difference. However, my initial instincts about people changed to the way they talked. I have learned since that most people who didlike blacks, dislike them for the way they carry themselves and act in society. Not because they are black.
Now I know things are different in other places. Still, it seems obvious to me that both sides in Jena escalated the situations. A fight is a fight, but when someone is enough of an animal to continue to beat an unconscience person... What can I say. I see no place for that person in a civilized society. They belong in prison, or on death row. Race aside, they are evil and need to be removed from society, white or black.

:lol :lol
You know, I had this long rant for you, but you are so fucking clueless I'm not even mad at you anymore!!! Continue living in your ignorance.

DarkReign

09-22-2007, 04:40 PM

...and you wonder why Northerners stereotype the South.

Wild Cobra

09-22-2007, 10:20 PM

:lol :lol
You know, I had this long rant for you, but you are so fucking clueless I'm not even mad at you anymore!!! Continue living in your ignorance.
Whatever. Apparently I didn't respond as you though I would and your response if ridiculously stupid.

I don't care about your response anyway. You say you stopped reading my post because I said something I didn't say. It's obvious you are the clueless one. How could your response have any meaning if you ignore the truth of what I say?

I agree with Ray. The left are the ones who keep the blacks down. Most the racism I see is self perpetuating because people assume it where it doesn't exist. I know that's not all of it because I do in fact know some pretty racist people. I just see nearly all if it coming from the left, with the right just sick and tired of it.

You said "I stopped reading this when you said that the noose incident was nothing more than a prank." Don't you see, it is people like you who keep these things going. You assume the rest of my posting and paint me one specific way, and fail to see the larger picture.

There is racism, prejudice, and bigotry. These are different aspects all of which get painted as racism by some. We all have some prejudicial qualities, and that is good. The other two are bad qualities.

What I really want to know is how can people around this country rationalize that the Jena Six are being punished to harsh. It seems to me everyone is ignoring the key facts and blaming the whites, just because racism exists. That is not a valid reason. They still need to pay for their crimes. Being the target of racism is no reason for a 'get out of jail free card.' This is not a monopoly game.

MannyIsGod

09-22-2007, 10:26 PM

I'm laughing my ass off because you seem to believe the severity of an injury mitigates the assailant's intent. Attempted murder can be committed without any injury being inflicted.I made a comment about the intent? Want to show it to me?

Exceptional form Yoni!

MannyIsGod

09-22-2007, 10:26 PM

This is true, however, did you skip the part of the concussion? X-rays, maybe an MRI, and other checks would have been performed. One of the articles gave a dollar amount of the visit too. I don't remember the cost, but it wasn't chump change. Happening during school hours, the emergency room probably wasn’t as busy as it would be around midnight or later. He was probably seen and treated right away. I would guess an extra couple hours were for observation.A concussion isn't a big deal.

Wild Cobra

09-22-2007, 10:34 PM

A concussion isn't a big deal.
Tell that to people who had just more than a concussion, and suffered permanent brain injury.

---added---

There are also problems associated with just a concussion.

from wiki:

Concussion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concussion):

Since concussions may not include damage to the brain's structure, the condition of patients with uncomplicated concussions often either improves or stays the same. But brain damage is a process, and not an event, that may set into motion many different pathological processes. The concussions that result in permanent long term deficits, often do get worse over the first few days. A deteriorating level of consciousness may mean that the patient has another problem such as a worse type of head injury. Similarly, persistent vomiting, worsening headache, ringing in the ears (tinnitus), drowsiness, unequal pupil size, and increasing disorientation are all indicative of a rise in intracranial pressure (ICP).[7] More likely in the typical concussion, the process of axonal injury and damage is progressing. Over the first 72 hours, a stretched or damaged axon, may be further damaged or killed by ionic fluctuations. [8]

The most critical mistake for those suffering from concussion, is not returning for further medical care and evaluation in the time period of 24 to 72 hours after the concussive event, if the symptoms are getting worse. Athletes, especially intercollegiate or professional athletes would typically be followed closely by team trainers during such period. But those injured in accidents may be sent home with no medical person monitoring them unless the situation gets worse. If the person had a concussion yesterday, and they don't have a clear recollection of the time period between the concussion and today, then they are likely suffering from Post-Traumatic Amnesia, and are more likely to have long term or permanent problems.

Tramatic Brain Injury (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traumatic_brain_injury):

The damage from TBI can be focal, confined to one area of the brain, or diffuse, involving more than one area of the brain. Diffuse trauma to the brain is frequently associated with concussion (a shaking of the brain in response to sudden motion of the head), diffuse axonal injury, or coma. Localized injuries may be associated with neurobehavioral manifestations, hemiparesis or other focal neurologic deficits.

.....

Within days to weeks of the head injury approximately 40% of TBI patients develop a host of troubling symptoms collectively called postconcussion syndrome (PCS).[1] A patient need not have suffered a concussion or loss of consciousness to develop the syndrome and many patients with mild TBI suffer from PCS.[1] Symptoms include headache, dizziness, memory problems, trouble concentrating, sleeping problems, restlessness, irritability, apathy, depression, and anxiety.[1] These symptoms may last for a few weeks after the head injury. The syndrome is more prevalent in patients who had psychiatric symptoms, such as depression or anxiety, before the injury.[1] Treatment for PCS may include medicines for pain and psychiatric conditions, and psychotherapy and occupational therapy.

MannyIsGod

09-23-2007, 12:06 AM

A severe concussion is obviously a big deal. Most concussions are not. You're not going to prove anything by posting what you just did. You do realize people die from the common cold right? That doesn't make the common cold any less of a big deal. I've had concussions in the past.

If the severity of the injuries was severe in any way, they would not have released him from the hospital so please, spare me. You don't go into an emergency and leave in 3 hours with a severe concussion so you may want to make sure the descriptions you post are relevant to the situation you're trying to explain.

Wild Cobra

09-23-2007, 12:31 AM

A severe concussion is obviously a big deal...
That's OK. Don't read the links and remain ignorant. According to the links, even minor concussions have potential long term problems.

I showed valid information your remarks are false, yet instaed of either backing up your remarks, or admit error... you continue with opinion. What can I say... Most definately not a trait of integrity.

MannyIsGod

09-23-2007, 12:39 AM

:lol

People die from the common cold. Doesn't get more severe than that. Death seems like a pretty long term problem if you ask me. Common colds are serious business according to your logic.

According to your links, most patients who suffer from concussions suffer no long term effects. And of course your links being the doctoral bible they are why should we question it?

I specifically said most concussions are not a big deal

This is directly from your link:

Some concussions can have serious, lasting effects. The symptoms of most concussions are resolved in 48 to 72 hours, but in many patients, problems persist

If you're going to argue against me, please don't provide me with the links I need to make you look like a fool. At least give me something to search for.

MannyIsGod

09-23-2007, 12:44 AM

http://www.webmd.com/brain/tc/Traumatic-Brain-Injury-Concussion-Overview

On rare occasions, concussions cause more serious problems. Repeated concussions or a severe concussion may require surgery or lead to long-lasting problems with movement, learning, or speaking. Because of the small chance of permanent brain problems, it is important to contact a doctor if you or someone you know has symptoms of a concussion.

http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/concussion?page=5

A person with a single, isolated concussion generally has a very good outcome with few long-term side effects.

MannyIsGod

09-23-2007, 12:44 AM

Too
Fucking
Easy.

gtownspur

09-23-2007, 01:11 AM

Too
Fucking
Easy.

It can't be that easy me donkey.

The prosecution and defense has to prove wether, the six wanted to cause more harm than they did. Outcome, is not necassary in judging attempted murder. Otherwise, it'd be murder we're dealing with.

Wild Cobra

09-23-2007, 01:42 AM

Too
Fucking
Easy.
Yep, easy for you to focus on one point. Just because the concussion likely was no big deal doesn't mitigate the fact that he was beaten after already being unconscious. Have to look at the whole situation, not just one or two parts that ban be picked apart. This was a very aggressive act. Not one of self defense. The actions against Bailey by any of the students can all be seen as reasonable, except the noose.

Let’s say the concussion is not big deal. How about that animalistic manner in which he received it.

Struck from behind being knocked unconscious. Beaten by a few black students when down. No mercy.

Should these black students be shown mercy?

How can anyone rationalize their actions?

Here in my state, as second degree assault is a mandated minimum of 70 months.

From the 1998 Criminal Code of Oregon:
163.175 Assault in the second degree.
(1) A person commits the crime of assault in the second degree if the person:
(a) Intentionally or knowingly causes serious physical injury to another; or
(b) Intentionally or knowingly causes physical injury to another by means of a deadly or dangerous weapon; or
(c) Recklessly causes serious physical injury to another by means of a deadly or dangerous weapon under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life.
(2) Assault in the second degree is a Class B felony.
From links within:
Measure 11 Crime Seriousness (http://www.crimevictimsunited.org/measure11/crimeseriousness.htm)

Bailey might get off easy in racist Louisiana. If that happened here in Oregon, if convicted, and that is likely… He would get that minimum 70 months!

MannyIsGod

09-23-2007, 02:02 AM

Yep, easy for you to focus on one point. Just because the concussion likely was no big deal doesn't mitigate the fact that he was beaten after already being unconscious. Have to look at the whole situation, not just one or two parts that ban be picked apart. This was a very aggressive act. Not one of self defense. The actions against Bailey by any of the students can all be seen as reasonable, except the noose.

Let’s say the concussion is not big deal. How about that animalistic manner in which he received it.

Struck from behind being knocked unconscious. Beaten by a few black students when down. No mercy.

Should these black students be shown mercy?

How can anyone rationalize their actions?

Here in my state, as second degree assault is a mandated minimum of 70 months.

From links within:
Measure 11 Crime Seriousness (http://www.crimevictimsunited.org/measure11/crimeseriousness.htm)

Bailey might get off easy in racist Louisiana. If that happened here in Oregon, if convicted, and that is likely… He would get that minimum 70 months!What kind of students were they again?

MannyIsGod

09-23-2007, 02:04 AM

BTW, I've made no posts regarding the charges so I don't know why after I owned you you started down that path. I'm not sure why Gculo has started down that path. I'm not sure why Yoni started down that path.

Shouldn't you all know what you're arguing against before you start arguing?

Wild Cobra

09-23-2007, 02:08 AM

BTW, I've made no posts regarding the charges so I don't know why after I owned you you started down that path....
That's right, pick just one small segment and dwell on it rather than the whole issue. That's a losers way out.

MannyIsGod

09-23-2007, 02:08 AM

Things you can establish from my posts in this thread;

1. I don't believe concussions are big deals
2. I don't believe 3 hours in the emergency room is a big deal
3. MannyIsGod > Wild Cobra

Anything else and you're just guessing.

Wild Cobra

09-23-2007, 02:11 AM

What kind of students were they again?
This is necessary because it has become a race thing. That does not mean normal criminal proceedures should follow.

Funny thing, is like I said before, this all seems to be a personal issue between Barker and Bailey. It might not really be about race. And you know what... Bailey instigated at least three of the incidents!

MannyIsGod

09-23-2007, 02:11 AM

That's right, pick just one small segment and dwell on it rather than the whole issue. That's a losers way out.Did you ever think maybe I never came in here to argue with your viewpoint on teh subject becaue mine isn't very different from yours? Seriously man, for someone who sat there and spouted off how smart they claimed to be you sure miss simple concepts.

I came into this thread and pointed out that I hadn't read most of it but the onloy thing I wanted to say was that 3 hours in an emergency room wasn't much. Then you went off on concussions and I said they were no big deal. You then provided links which you failed to read fully to prove your point and they ended up proving mine on the minor subject that we split off on a tangent. Then, compeltely on your own and probably as in a straw grasping attempt to save some face you started arguing with me on a subject I had never even made my views clear on.

Good, fucking, game.

Wild Cobra

09-23-2007, 02:12 AM

MannyIsGod

09-23-2007, 02:12 AM

What truth would that be?

Wild Cobra

09-23-2007, 02:19 AM

I came into this thread and pointed out that I hadn't read most of it but the onloy thing I wanted to say was that 3 hours in an emergency room wasn't much. Then you went off on concussions and I said they were no big deal. You then provided links which you failed to read fully to prove your point and they ended up proving mine on the minor subject that we split off on a tangent.

You should read more. Sure, a concussion is normally no big deal, but you said it wasn't a big deal... impling 100%. I linked material showing otherwise.

I have not said it always was a big deal, you seem to ficus on absolutes that are unimportant.

Let me ask you this. Russian Roulette gives you a one in six chance of getting shot. Would you play the game saying it's no big deal because there is a 5/6 chance of no damage?

Then, compeltely on your own and probably as in a straw grasping attempt to save some face you started arguing with me on a subject I had never even made my views clear on.

Good, fucking, game.

Right, you didn't make your views clear except you were dismissing a key fact as irrelavant. What am I suppose to assume?

Grasping for straws? LOL... You just don't get it. I am arguing the whole case. Not just one silly point. If one point is all you can handle, then go away.

MannyIsGod

09-23-2007, 02:29 AM

How can you argue the whole case with someone when you don't even know their stance?

TLWisfoine

09-23-2007, 02:30 AM

:lol Wild Cobra, how you are able to function with such limited brain power simply amazes me.

Wild Cobra

09-23-2007, 02:39 AM

:lol Wild Cobra, how you are able to function with such limited brain power simply amazes me.
LOL... You couldn't read past noose, and you claim I have limited brain power?

I get tired of these attacks, and yes, I can return attacks. What I don't understand is why people like you, Manny, Chump, etc. have to start attacks. Is it a way of countering a lack of being able to have an intellegent debate? Or is it that you have such low self-esyteem that it's your way of feeling better?

Why do people like you attack others instead of offering valuable material to debate? Have you offered any yet, or are you just a flamer?

TLWisfoine

09-23-2007, 03:17 AM

Okay WC Lets Rock!!!

The noose can be prosecuted as a hate crime. However, you must show in the burden of proof that it was meant to racially intimidate. Under the circumstances and history of the events, it appears the black students were purposely pushing issues. If they were the initial troublemakers, then the noose could be a statement to anger then and even intimidate them. However, can it be proved it wasn't just a prank? Some blame the school officials for not reporting it as a crime to the police. Even a black teacher, Anthony Jackson, is quoted as jokingly saying "I jokingly said to another teacher, 'One's for you, one's for me. Who's the other one for?'" Why didn't the parents report this incident to the police? Apparently, nobody really took it real serious other than the recommended expulsion.

Purposely pushing issues. You mean being to uppity? How dare they not follow the rules and allow their white overlords to have their tree. Tell me, are you the type of person who views the civil rights movement as when America started to go wrong? Burden of proof? Seriously, a fucking noose is hanging from a tree what more proof do you need. As far as nobody reporting it to the police, maybe the people there were to scared/intimidated to do so. That's the way it is in the Deep South. Even the school board then overturned the principal's recommendation that the boys who were responsible for the nooses be expelled.

Now probably the biggest thing that escalated this whole thing came from a black activist, Caseptla Bailey, Robert Bailey Jr's mother! She said "It meant the KKK, it meant '######s we're going to kill you, we're gonna hang you 'til you die'." I find these activists that like to keep the racial tensions going. Look at the way she must have raised her son. Always someone else’s fault.

I find it funny that the one person you say that actually speaks out against the noose shit, you try to discredit as some person trying to start trouble. Tell me, why do you think that, and what the hell else is a noose hanging from a tree in the deep south supposed to mean?

As for the nooses, it is said that that really wasn't the catalyst. There seems to be tension between these people anyway. The night of the party seems to be the starting point. This was a invitation only party prior to the Ring Ceremony. Robert Bailey decided to crash it. Nobody was letting him in, and after he managed to get inside somehow. He was assaulted by others. He was unwelcome, and in essence, broke in. It was not on school grounds, and again, a private event. Another fight broke out, just outside, where one white adult was charged.

Tension between these people, no shit. You seem to be excusing the people who assaulted Bailey. I've crashed many parties in my day and I was never assaulted for doing so.

The next day, a Barker and Bailey had an altercation outside a convenience store. They each told police the other was the aggressor, but an eye witness said Bailey and his friends were the instigators. That is why Bailey was charged with the theft of the gun, and no charges for Barker protecting himself. Bailey was not arrested after bringing the weapon to the police. He took it home with him, effectively stealing it.

I'd like to know from what source or sources you found that said that eyewitnesses stated that Bailey and his friends are the one who started this.

The incident where Barker is beaten has eye witnesses saying he was attacked from behind and fell. He was unconscious at this point and they continued to beat him. Testimony has the following:

From what I have been hearing this Barker kid isn't all that innocent. I heard that he was screaming racial slurs to the boys. All I have to say is scream racial slurs to me and see what fucking happens. Cause and effect my friend. The same way you appear to be defending the people at the party for assaulting Bailey when he crashed it I'm thinking if this is true and this Barker kid was screaming racial shit then maybe what happened to him doesn't deserve so much sympathy.

Now I really get pissed at the way the media says things. "All white jury." You know why? None of the blacks called for jury duty showed up! "White Tree" Was it actually designated this, or was it dubbed that for this story? We all had our own circle of friends we hung out with. That doesn't make it a racial thing. We all had our preferred places to congregate. That doesn't mean ownership. This is why I go back and think that the incident at the tree was first perpetrated by the blacks. We don't know for sure, but they probably set out to intentionally harass the whites there. I believe that because of the facts that followed the incident.

This paragraph is so stupid I'm not even going to comment on it.

Ignignokt

09-23-2007, 03:21 AM

It's the UV RAY bitch! HEy UV ray! how come you don't awnser gtown's post?

TLWisfoine

09-23-2007, 03:23 AM

Nbadan

09-23-2007, 03:39 AM

Nice stuff TL....too many times we tend see things through our own eyes...so caucasions who don't practice racism think that it does not exist anymore....after all, it's not them being racists....but they don't walk around being black, or hispanic, or any other minority...they don't know that there are still some racist people out there and the system is set up so minorities receive a inferior education ....

...that's my main problem with all these well-off kids who cry about being stuck next to some minority who doesn't measure up thanks to affirmative action in schools.....if you don't want affirmative action, then lets start sending some of the kids from Edgewood and South San to Churchill and Reagan and vice-versa....

ChumpDumper

09-23-2007, 03:43 AM

I hope that we would be at the point where the state could take care of this without the feds getting involved, but maybe not.

Wild Cobra

09-23-2007, 05:44 AM

Purposely pushing issues. You mean being to uppity?

Look, I read over 30 sources of information and I am olny bringing up points from all of them. If you wish to call that uppity, then why should I care. It makes it more obvious of your viewpoint by using a term that came out of the 1800's slave states.

How dare they not follow the rules and allow their white overlords to have their tree.

I never implied that. I'm sorry your skills of deciphering plain English are not up to par. If you read all my thoughts on the issue, and compare it with other actions by Bailey, it is obvious he forced his way to places he was unwelcome. The question is, which I did not try to answer, is... Is it because he is black, or because he just wasn’t part of this particular group. I could have easily implied it was just because he is not part of a particular circle of friends, in fact, I do make mention of circles of people. I am just not willing to state as fact that it was something I don't have knowledge of. This does go to my experience in life that what I have seen about prejudice is the incorrect perception by blacks, so they keep the real hatred alive.

This also goes to Baileys mother. I really wonder what influence she had for Bailey to act like he did. When he and his friends went to the tree, was it to hang out and stay cool, or was it to harass the students already there? This is a question that needs to be asked. By the other things Bailey involved himself in, I believe it was the Blacks who first started the harassment!

Tell me, are you the type of person who views the civil rights movement as when America started to go wrong?

Absolutely not. The civil rights movement was great. It has now been hijacked by race-baiters. They continue keeping racism alive rather than bringing up the black community.

Burden of proof? Seriously, a fucking noose is hanging from a tree what more proof do you need.

There are several different possible angles on this, and I did state that I believe the noose was for intimidation, and therefore subject to hate crime laws. Again, that is my believe, and the burden of proof, like it or not, is part of our justice system. Now I bring this up again. Were they really nooses, or were they lassos? Maybe that's why the suggested expulsion was reduced to suspension, and the statements that no crime was committed! Again, only a guess, but it would have been an easily prosecuted crime if they were actual nooses! If I recall, it was the state attorney generals office that made that call, so go ask the governor. What really makes sense to me is students with lassos daring one another to hang them like nooses to see if people are so ignorant to think they are nooses… I see that as a very real possibility!

As far as nobody reporting it to the police, maybe the people there were to scared/intimidated to do so. That's the way it is in the Deep South. Even the school board then overturned the principal's recommendation that the boys who were responsible for the nooses be expelled.

If people were scared, or intimidated, then what can we do? Someone has to come forward. Someone has to make the legal claim. Without going through the legal system, things will not change. I acknowledge that it may be the case. If so, the black community there can always be expected to remain in their current condition, until someone is brave enough, and not move to the back of the bus. I doubt there is a case though. Wouldn’t Mrs. Bailey have done so? As the local civil rights leader there, she definitely has enough clout!

Now will you acknowledge the possibility that there was no actual crime to report? Biased media accounts don't tell us everything, and the facts are difficult to find.

Again, burden of proof. Let's say they were nooses, and subject to hate crime laws. Now, the burden of proof has to prove they were purposely intimidating someone. That might not have been their state of mind. Take that, alone with Bailey being shown to be the perpetrator of reported incidents three time... Who's trying to intimidate, or antagonize who?

I find it funny that the one person you say that actually speaks out against the noose shit, you try to discredit as some person trying to start trouble. Tell me, why do you think that, and what the hell else is a noose hanging from a tree in the deep south supposed to mean?

Don't you find it coincidental that Bailey started instigating troubling events after the noose, and it was his mother that made statements of what it meant? Sure, that's what it means to her, but could it have been nothing more than a harmless prank in the eyes of those placing it? If she had just blown it off like the black teacher did, maybe her son wouldn't have instigated those crimes?

Everyone should take responsibility to end racism. Forget the past. Let harmless things slide into oblivion.

Tension between these people, no shit. You seem to be excusing the people who assaulted Bailey. I've crashed many parties in my day and I was never assaulted for doing so.

Someone unwelcome crashes an event I hold, I will use what ever force it takes to remove them, even if I have to hurt them!

Yes! I believe the people who forcefully removed him had every right to.

I'd like to know from what source or sources you found that said that eyewitnesses stated that Bailey and his friends are the one who started this.

It was in several web sites. Between Alta Vista (http://www.altavista.com/web/results?q=%2B%22jenna+six%22+%2Bbailey+%2Bbarker) searches, and articles at the botton of the wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jena_six), I read over 30. I'm not going back over them to find it, but it was sourced multiple times. The wiki page currently has 43 links at the bottom, the specific Alta Vista search yields 28.

From what I have been hearing this Barker kid isn't all that innocent. I heard that he was screaming racial slurs to the boys. All I have to say is scream racial slurs to me and see what fucking happens. Cause and effect my friend.

Maybe he was. That's no reason for assault. Still, some of the stories deny he said any such thing too. We don't know for sure, because we were not there. I will assume he did, but I'm sure it likely went both ways.

Are you saying that words are reasons to attack from behind and beat an unconscious person who called you a ######? What a pussy to have to attack from behind anyway!

The same way you appear to be defending the people at the party for assaulting Bailey when he crashed it I'm thinking if this is true and this Barker kid was screaming racial shit then maybe what happened to him doesn't deserve so much sympathy.

Sure, if Barker crashed Bailey's party. Otherwise, it's not the same now, is it?

This paragraph is so stupid I'm not even going to comment on it.

Why is pointing out that the words portrayed in the media for sensationalism might not be the actual truth?

Did the kids in the school call it "the white tree" or did a particular group of kids, who just happen to be white, normally associate there?

Now consider if the kids broke up into approximate equal size groups, and we can safely assume that most groups would be black or white. Each group is going to have a normal place they hang out. At least we all did when I was in school. The geeks had the library, the smokers were at the wall by the tennis courts, etc... With about 1 in 6 being black and about 5 in 6 being white, would some smartass just be calling 5 in 6 places, white places?

Stop jumping to conclusions and look into the possibilities of situation. If you really consider that paragraph stupid, then you really have a closed mind...

xrayzebra

09-23-2007, 08:07 AM

Tell me, do you believe that racism no longer exists? That America is this racial utopia. Also and sadly, most of the white folks in Jena probably do think like that.

NBA Dan Said: Nice stuff TL....too many times we tend see things through our own eyes...so caucasions who don't practice racism think that it does not exist anymore....after all, it's not them being racists....but they don't walk around being black, or hispanic, or any other minority...they don't know that there are still some racist people out there and the system is set up so minorities receive a inferior education ....

Both of you prove my point. TLW especially, I have no
idea if he is really black or pretending to be one, and
really don't care. But obviously he is a racist, but would
call you one if you dared to state something about a
so called minority. Even if true.

And Dan, in San Antonio, I am the minority. But it
doesn't really bother me one way or the other. I have
had black neighbors several times, some of them were
great, others were not. Same with some of my white
neighbors. Some were great some weren't. I have worked
with blacks all my adult life, for them and had them
work for me. I had no problem with them one way or
the other. I felt extremely sorry for one, who had worked
and studied damn hard for a promotion and got it, only
to have a damn liberal paper make such a big deal
out of it that it appeared he got it because he was black
and filling a quota. I told him how I felt and that it
damn sure wasn't fair. He deserved the promotion
because he worked for it. So you two folks go suck a
lemon and TLW take the damn chip off your shoulder.
Folks may like you just a little bit more. Don't hunt
for trouble. Because I can guarantee you one thing,
you will find enough in life without seeking it out.

Someone ask about gtspur post, why I didn't respon
respond to what?

Added:

TLW if you are going to post stuff about people, at
least learn how to spell their race: It is "Caucasian"
and "Hispanic".

Also, TLW, I am posting a link to an interview with
Dr. Walter E. Williams, a person I admire very much.
Him and Dr. Sowell are two of the most down to earth
treachers I have ever had the pleasure of listening to
and reading. I hope you read the interview this link
points to. I wish the kids in Jenna had been pointed
in this direction. Anyhow, enjoy. I know I enjoyed
the interview. By the way both of these Gentlemen
are black.

http://www.objectivistcenter.org/ct-1750-.aspx

Ronaldo McDonald

09-23-2007, 09:58 AM

samikeyp

09-23-2007, 10:13 AM

I stopped reading this when you said that the noose incident was nothing more than a prank. Anyone who tries to rationalize the hanging of a damn noose in a tree, especially in the south as a prank, has to be A. one of the most ignorant people alive or B. an apoligist for racists.

I think its both and that is what is sad. Kids who do that and think its a prank grow up believing that its ok to do that. I applaud the fact that the kids who did that were expelled but it sucks that the expulsion was reduced to a suspension. Watching this story on Outside The Lines this morning the football coach and one of the school board were interviewed and they both condemned the nooses which tells me there is hope but then seeing the DA talk about this case and only mention the beating and not the nooses lessened that hope.

Some people on both sides (including posters here) are so quick to point the other side as racists that they are ignoring the same behavior on their own side.

xrayzebra

09-23-2007, 11:15 AM

all of america is racist, not just jena
jena is just more overtly racist

wonder why so many black people are in jail compared to white people, all over the us?

Could it be that they commit more crimes and sadly
against their own race.

It seems to be the case.

One thing most of you overlook. Racism and prejudice
is not an exclusively American thing. It exist all over
the world. Not just against blacks, but against
religion. Ugh, you know like Muslims against Christians.
Muslims against Jews. Other races against other races.
The same races against their own race but different
ethnic cleansing.

I know that this doesn't excuse any racism here in the
U.S. But it is a human frailty. I too suffer prejudice.
There are lots of folks I don't like. Not because of race,
because of the way they act. Some are black, some are
white and some are of other races.

One other point I would like to make. AP had a long
article in the Express-News this morning about Jena.
And has been stated there has been a lot of mis-reporting,
according to the article. The white shade tree wasn't
an exclusive white tree. All the students used it.
The noose thing was considered a joke among many
students, including some of the black students and the
school took them down because the students were
playing with them. They students who did the deed
were not just penalized for just three days, but were
put into alternative school for a month. Some whites
think they should have been suspended.
Any read it for yourself. Story follows:

Black and White Becomes Gray in La. Town

By TODD LEWAN – 16 hours ago

JENA, La. (AP) — It's got all the elements of a Delta blues ballad from the days of Jim Crow: hangman's nooses dangling from a shade tree; a mysterious fire in the night; swift deliberations by a condemning, all-white jury.

And drawn by this story, which evokes the worst of a nightmarish past, they came by the thousands this past week to Jena, La. — to demand justice, to show strength, to beat back the forces of racism as did their parents and grandparents.

But there are many in Jena who say the tale of the "Jena Six" — the black teenagers who were charged with attempted murder and conspiracy for attacking a white classmate at Jena High School last December — is not as simple as all that.

Black and white, they say that in its repeated retelling — enhanced by omissions and alterations of fact — the story has taken on a life of its own. It has transformed a school-yard stomping into an international cause celebre, and those accused of participating in it into what one major Southern daily came to describe as "latter-day Scottsboro Boys."

And they say that while their town's race relations are not unblemished, this is not the cauldron of bigotry that has been depicted.

To Ben Reid, 61, who set down roots in Jena in 1957 and lived here throughout the civil rights era, "this whole thing ain't no downright, racial affair."

Reid, who is black, presently serves on the LaSalle Parish council. He reads the papers. He hears the talk outside of church on Sundays about how the Jena Six business is dividing his hometown down racial lines.

He doesn't buy it.

"You have good people here and bad people here, on both sides. This thing has been blown out of proportion. What we ought to do is sit down and talk this thing out, 'cause once all is said and done and you media folks leave, we're the ones who're going to have to live here."

Clearly, something bad occurred in Jena, population 2,971, an old sawmill town in LaSalle Parish that, once upon a time, was Ku Klux Klan country. And, as most white and black residents readily agree, there is no good reason for embracing what unfolded here.

But what happened, exactly?

The story goes that a year ago, a black student asked at an assembly if he could sit in the shade of a live oak, which, the story goes, was labeled "the white tree" because only white students hung out there. The next day, three nooses dangled from the oak — code for "KKK" — the handiwork of three white students, who were suspended for just three days.

Much of that is disputed. What happened next is not: Two months later, an arsonist torched a wing of Jena High School. (The case remains unsolved.) Two fights between blacks and whites roiled the town that weekend, culminating in a school-yard brawl on Dec. 4 that led the district attorney to charge the Jena Six with attempted murder. The lethal weapon he cited to justify the charge: the boys' sneakers.

In July, the first to be tried, Mychal Bell, was convicted after two hours of deliberations by an all-white jury on reduced charges of aggravated battery and conspiracy to commit it.

(It was widely reported that Bell, now 17, was an honor student with no prior criminal record. Although he had a high grade-point average, he was, in fact, on probation for at least two counts of battery and a count of criminal damage to property. In any event, his conviction was overturned because an appeals court ruled he should not have been tried as an adult.)

There is, however, a more nuanced rendition of events — one that can be found in court testimony, in interviews with teachers, officials and students at Jena High, and in public statements from a U.S. attorney who reviewed the case for possible federal intervention.

Consider:

_The so-called "white tree" at Jena High, often reported to be the domain of only white students, was nothing of the sort, according to teachers and school administrators; students of all races, they say, congregated under it at one time or another.

_Two nooses — not three — were found dangling from the tree. Beyond being offensive to blacks, the nooses were cut down because black and white students "were playing with them, pulling on them, jump-swinging from them, and putting their heads through them," according to a black teacher who witnessed the scene.

_There was no connection between the September noose incident and December attack, according to Donald Washington, an attorney for the U.S. Justice Department in western Louisiana, who investigated claims that these events might be race-related hate crimes.

_The three youths accused of hanging the nooses were not suspended for just three days — they were isolated at an alternative school for about a month, and then given an in-school suspension for two weeks.

_The six-member jury that convicted Bell was, indeed, all white. However, only one in 10 people in LaSalle Parish is African American, and though black residents were selected randomly by computer and summoned for jury selection, none showed up.

About 225 miles and a world apart from racially mixed New Orleans, Jena (pronounced JEE-nuh) is a throwback.

Here, one refers to elders as "Sir," and "Ma'am." Children still pull catfish from creeks; couples court at Jena Giants football games; families rope goats and calves at weekend rodeos.

In a place where per capita income is $13,761, there aren't any swank, French restaurants, but rather, family eateries such as the Burger Barn, Ginny's and Maw & Paw's. Most of Jena's 14-odd churches stage Easter egg hunts. On summer afternoons, sweet tea and lemonade on a neighbor's front porch are obligatory.

And there are endearing figures, like the designated town sweeper who mountain bikes around town with a wagon full of rakes, brooms, dustpans and cleaning fluids, stopping only to sweep shopowners' parking lots or to distribute complimentary bubble gum to grade schoolers.

Not all vestiges of the past are beloved, or quaint, of course.

There are no black lawyers, no black doctors and one black employee in the town's half-dozen banks. (The employee is male, an accountant who works out of public view.)

Economics play a role in this; with the closure of the sawmills in the '50s, the town now relies heavily on the exploitation of oil and natural gas, offshore. There are relatively few good-paying jobs in what is gradually becoming a retirement community, and some point out that African Americans with higher educations tend to leave the parish.

"To a certain extent, that's true," says Anthony Jackson, one of Jena High's two black teachers. "But I know some people who tried to stay here and couldn't get good jobs. There was, for instance, a gentleman who graduated as a certified biology teacher, but he left because he didn't want to deal with what's going on here."

Cleveland Riser, 75, who began working in Jena as a teacher and then rose to become an assistant superintendent of schools in LaSalle Parish, says blacks have long had trouble getting ahead in Jena.

"In my experience, the opportunity for advancing in my profession was denied, in my opinion, because I was black — not because I was unprepared professionally, or because of my performance."

Here and across the "crossroads" of Louisiana, there are Klan supporters, to be sure; David Duke, the former KKK Grand Wizard, carried LaSalle Parish in his 1991 run for state governor. And Jacqueline Hatcher, a 59-year-old African American, remembers when, as a ninth grader in 1962, she saw a large cross burning out front of the all-black Good Pine High School.

"We heard the Klan was meeting in the woods because there was going to be desegregation in the schools and they didn't want that," says Hatcher. Still, no one recalls seeing any public lynchings or whites in robes and masks for a half century.

"If I could take you back to 60 years ago, and then fast forward to today, you'd have to say we've come a long way," says Billy Wayne Fowler, a white school-board member who is one of the few leaders with the school administration or local law enforcement who still talks to reporters.

Most townsfolk, he says, interpreted the events of last year pretty much the same way — that a small minority of troublemakers, both black and white, got out of hand, and that the responses from authorities weren't always on the mark.

The boys who hung the nooses "probably should have been expelled," Fowler says, and the murder charges brought against the black teenagers were "too harsh, too severe."

Tommy Farris, 27, an oil driller, and his wife, Nikki, 29, a registered nurse, concur — to a point. "Those boys should have expelled," says Nikki, who is white. "It was no innocent prank. I think those boys knew what they were starting by hanging those nooses from a tree."

Tommy, who is black, agrees. But free the Jena Six?

"That's not going to happen," he says, adding that he thinks the black teenagers are being given a fair chance to defend themselves against the charges.

Johnny Wilkinson, 44, a platform officer on an oil rig, and his wife, Karen, a 47-year-old director of nurses at the local hospital, are, like many couples in town, wrestling with that question of fairness.

The noose hanging was wrong, say the Wilkinsons, who are white, and the boys who did it should have been more severely punished.

Still, "They knocked that boy out cold and were stomping on him," Johnny says. "They might have killed him. I believe punishment would have been measured the same way if it had been the opposite way around and six whites had attacked a black kid."

(The teenager who was beaten, Justin Barker, 17, was knocked out but walked out of a hospital after two hours of treatment for a concussion and an eye that was swollen shut. He attended a school ring ceremony later that night.)

Adds Karen: "A sentence of 15 years is fair, but I do think they should be eligible for parole. Who are we to say they can't be members of society?"

But to Braxter Hatcher, 62, a janitor at Jena High for 18 years, such punishment would be excessive, and would only serve to reinforce suspicions in the black community that the worst kind of "Deep South justice" still exists here.

"They haven't always been fair in the courthouse with us," says Hatcher, who is black. "If you're black, they go overboard sometimes. I think this was just a fight between boys. I don't think it was attempted murder."

A number of other blacks — and whites — have raised similar questions about the Jena Six episode, particularly the manner in which authorities handled a series of racially charged incidents leading up to it.

Why, they ask, wasn't the noose incident ever reported to police? (A report might have triggered a hate-crime investigation, although federal authorities rarely go after juveniles in such cases.) And when whites and blacks tangled several times before the Jena Six episode, why did authorities charge the whites with misdemeanors — or not at all — while charging blacks with felonies?

Reed Walters, the LaSalle Parish district attorney who is prosecuting the cases of the Jena Six, insisted the case "is not and never has been about race. It is about finding justice for an innocent victim and holding people accountable for their actions."

Huey Crockett, 50, lives with his wife, Carla, 45, in a heavily wooded, predominantly black district just beyond Jena's limits, an area known as "The Country." The Crocketts, who are black, have complained to police that Bell and other youngsters were causing trouble in their neighborhood — scratching cars with keys, breaking the windows of parked cars, spraying property with paint.

The authorities, Crockett says, were always slow to respond.

"But as soon as he had a run-in with a white boy, they came down on him like a hammer. That's not right. If I call the police for an incident here, it may take them an hour, an hour and half to get out here. But they'll be right out in an instant if a white person calls them."

What also rankles African Americans in Jena, says Riser, the former school superintendent, is that whites charged with the same crimes as blacks receive more lenient punishment. "What this boils down to is: Why is there a double standard?"

On a road into town, a brick portal welcomes visitors to Jena, touting it as "A Nice Place to Call Home." But when the national spotlight goes away, will it be that nice place?

A week ago, Eddie Thompson, a white pastor at the Sanctuary Family Worship Center, would have said no. But on Wednesday, as thousands of demonstrators prepared to pour into tiny Jena, religious leaders held a unified church service, attended by blacks and whites.

"We prayed for one another, prayed for all of the boys involved in this," Thompson says. "We're not used to the glare, but something positive is going on here. I believe that we're maybe listening to our neighbors better, when we didn't listen before."
Hosted by Google
Copyright © 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

Here is the line for those that don't trust me. (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jOl6L858y0iDf4k_28ojhYLcuLGg)

TLWisfoine

09-23-2007, 02:18 PM

Both of you prove my point. TLW especially, I have no
idea if he is really black or pretending to be one, and
really don't care. But obviously he is a racist, but would
call you one if you dared to state something about a
so called minority. Even if true.

And Dan, in San Antonio, I am the minority. But it
doesn't really bother me one way or the other. I have
had black neighbors several times, some of them were
great, others were not. Same with some of my white
neighbors. Some were great some weren't. I have worked
with blacks all my adult life, for them and had them
work for me. I had no problem with them one way or
the other. I felt extremely sorry for one, who had worked
and studied damn hard for a promotion and got it, only
to have a damn liberal paper make such a big deal
out of it that it appeared he got it because he was black
and filling a quota. I told him how I felt and that it
damn sure wasn't fair. He deserved the promotion
because he worked for it. So you two folks go suck a
lemon and TLW take the damn chip off your shoulder.
Folks may like you just a little bit more. Don't hunt
for trouble. Because I can guarantee you one thing,
you will find enough in life without seeking it out.

Someone ask about gtspur post, why I didn't respon
respond to what?

Added:

TLW if you are going to post stuff about people, at
least learn how to spell their race: It is "Caucasian"
and "Hispanic".

Also, TLW, I am posting a link to an interview with
Dr. Walter E. Williams, a person I admire very much.
Him and Dr. Sowell are two of the most down to earth
treachers I have ever had the pleasure of listening to
and reading. I hope you read the interview this link
points to. I wish the kids in Jenna had been pointed
in this direction. Anyhow, enjoy. I know I enjoyed
the interview. By the way both of these Gentlemen
are black.

http://www.objectivistcenter.org/ct-1750-.aspx

Oh so now I'm the racist. Why do people like you only think that the only racism in this country is the racism against whites? Oh how hard it must be being a white person in this country. The same party that you support have historically and to this day are still ignoring issues within the black community most recently by declining to go to a debate that is being done at a historically black college. Before you go off on the liberals or "dimmocraps" as you call them I'm no fan of theirs either. Yes I am familiar with Walter Williams and have read many of his self hating articles. In my opinion the man hates his own race more than the Klan does. Anyone who is friends with the likes of that racist piece of shit Rush Limbaugh does not deserve my time. He's trying to take the "Grand Uncle Dragon" title away from Jesse Lee Peterson as far as I'm concerned.

TLWisfoine

09-23-2007, 02:20 PM

I'm asking this next question w/o having read anything in this thread...

It appears to me that thre MAJORITY of blacks only become angry about injustices against them, like the one that's happening right now w/ the Jena 6. That is fine.

But where are all these blacks standing up for what is right when it comes to all of the blacks in gangs, all of the blacks in jail, high teen pregnancy rates, low SAT test scores, AIDS etc?

Questions like this tickle the hell out of me. In case you didn't know they're many people within the black community who are speaking out against these issues but the media doesn't seem to care about them. All they care about is what crazy shenanigans the likes of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are doing thus making the current civil rights movement seem like nothing but a big joke. But maybe its better for them to not get attention because you have people such as this ray guy who will discredit them as being nothing more than race baiting racists for speaking out.

TLWisfoine

09-23-2007, 02:21 PM

all of america is racist, not just jena
jena is just more overtly racist

wonder why so many black people are in jail compared to white people, all over the us?

Yes I know why. You can start with this phony war on drugs that goes hard after the users and not the suppliers. Also, how in the hell is crack cocaine a worse drug than cocaine and why does it carry a heavier prison sentence when you are caught using it. You can thank every black persons hero for that, Bill Clinton.

Also you can point out the disproportianate funding of schools and the cutting of after school programs in the urban cities of America. Unless you are inclined to believe that blacks somehow have this criminal gene that whites don't.

TLWisfoine

09-23-2007, 02:25 PM

I think its both and that is what is sad. Kids who do that and think its a prank grow up believing that its ok to do that. I applaud the fact that the kids who did that were expelled but it sucks that the expulsion was reduced to a suspension. Watching this story on Outside The Lines this morning the football coach and one of the school board were interviewed and they both condemned the nooses which tells me there is hope but then seeing the DA talk about this case and only mention the beating and not the nooses lessened that hope.

Some people on both sides (including posters here) are so quick to point the other side as racists that they are ignoring the same behavior on their own side.

I'm starting to feel this way which is why I'm most likely not going to mess with this thread anymore after this post. We are all just spinning in circles fast and we are all obviously entrenched in our own beliefs and I don't think any of us are going to budge.

Oh well, back to the sports forums for me!!!

TLWisfoine

09-23-2007, 02:29 PM

Sorry made a mistake before. Walter Williams is trying to take away the "Grand Uncle Dragon" title away from Jesse Lee Peterson. My mistake!!!

samikeyp

09-23-2007, 02:32 PM

I'm starting to feel this way which is why I'm most likely not going to mess with this thread anymore after this post. We are all just spinning in circles fast and we are all obviously entrenched in our own beliefs and I don't think any of us are going to budge.

Oh well, back to the sports forums for me!!!

I agree with you to a point. I think there is room for talk. Sadly though, you have too many folks, black and white, who go to the race card too easily. People, including many on this board, think if a black man has something nice..he must have stolen it and if a white person has something nice, it was handed to him only because he is white. If we could think and listen before we judge, we all just might survive.

xrayzebra

09-23-2007, 02:37 PM

The same party that you support have historically and to this day are still ignoring issues within the black community most recently by declining to go to a debate that is being done at a historically black college.

Obviously you don't know you history, do you? Who freed
the slaves and to what party did he belong? Who supported
the civil rights law? It wasn't the dimm-o-craps. They
the dimm-o-craps are the party of slavery, dependence on
the government. And you fit the party's "party line" right
down the line.

The same party that you support have historically and to this day are still ignoring issues within the black community most recently by declining to go to a debate that is being done at a historically black college. Before you go off on the liberals or "dimmocraps" as you call them I'm no fan of theirs either.

What issues "within the black community" has the
Republican party refuse to debate at a historically black
college". And pray tell what issues haven't been debated
by the party that owns the black community and solved?
They own you by the admission of your black leaders,
Jesse Jackson and what's his face, cant think of the
slick "minister" from New York name. No my fine
adversary you and other individual blacks are going to
have to solve your own problems. Just like others do.
There have been some good people try to say things
you need to hear and been shouted down. Bill Cosby
being one. Like he said, how can anyone expect to get
ahead in this world when they cant even speak a language
that anyone understands except another gang member.
Or they dress like some kind of idiot. And do not
respect the law and wont help the law to fight crime in
their own neighborhood. Don't preach to me, preach to
those that need help.

Ya Vez

09-23-2007, 02:51 PM

I will never understand the south... probably why I hate it so much... I am so glad I grew up in the southwest...

clambake

09-23-2007, 03:23 PM

ray's a riot.

loves rush limbo=drug addicted racist
loves bill cosby="let me slip you this knockout drug so i can fuck you"

TLWisfoine

09-23-2007, 04:04 PM

Obviously you don't know you history, do you? Who freed
the slaves and to what party did he belong? Who supported
the civil rights law? It wasn't the dimm-o-craps. They
the dimm-o-craps are the party of slavery, dependence on
the government. And you fit the party's "party line" right
down the line.

What issues "within the black community" has the
Republican party refuse to debate at a historically black
college". And pray tell what issues haven't been debated
by the party that owns the black community and solved?
They own you by the admission of your black leaders,
Jesse Jackson and what's his face, cant think of the
slick "minister" from New York name. No my fine
adversary you and other individual blacks are going to
have to solve your own problems. Just like others do.
There have been some good people try to say things
you need to hear and been shouted down. Bill Cosby
being one. Like he said, how can anyone expect to get
ahead in this world when they cant even speak a language
that anyone understands except another gang member.
Or they dress like some kind of idiot. And do not
respect the law and wont help the law to fight crime in
their own neighborhood. Don't preach to me, preach to
those that need help.

You obviously don't know your history either. I like it when conservatives try to throw the "we are the party that freed the slaves, and supported civil rights" etc. etc. What you seem to forget is that once the civil rights bill was signed there was a mass exodus from the Democratic party to the Republican Party, and that is also when the previously Democratic south became the home base of the republican party it is today. When President Lyndon Johnson signed the bill he is quoted as saying ""I know the risks are great and we might lose the South, but those sorts of states may be lost anyway." And where did all these racists go, the Republican Party, and the Republican leaders were more than willing to conform their beliefs in order to satisfy their new base. Especially that racist son of a bitch Reagan, every Republicans hero.

Just in case you haven't been keeping up with the news, you have heard of the Republican candidates who have declined an invitation to speak at Howard University and other black avenues. Even Newt Gingrich, one of the most partisan people I know has criticized this. Also Princella Smith a black Republican and someone I have repeatedly reffered to as the "Grand Mamie Dragon" speaks on this. As far as the Democratic party goes I have absolutely no love for them either. I view both parties as being two fingers on the same hand. I am continually perplexed with why the black community is so loyal to a party that hasn't done much for them. "Oh but they attend black churches and play the sax on Arsenio's show." Straight BS if you ask me. And as far as solving things in the black community, I am not ignorant to the fact that there are problems within the black community that needs to be solved. I am just as vocal about that as anybody and if you checked out some of my posts in other forums that are predominately black you will see this. But this being a majority white board I don't preach the same message here as I do there. And I'm also not one of those Uncle Tom's who think's that the black community is the one who holds all of the fault in this. American society has failed the black community and people like you who think and speak in broad genaralities about the black community are of no help either. Being that whites are the ones who hold the positions of power in America and blacks don't the black people who are trying to solve the issues that currently are troubling the black community do need help and people like you are either to stubborn to give it, or just don't give a rats ass. You and your ilk are so quick to lend a helping hand to the country of Israel and others, but when it comes to your own "American brothers" you just want to turn your back on us and just wait for us to internally self destruct. But that's what people such as yourself would love now isn't it?

Walk a mile in my fucking shoes before you start preaching to me about the black community!!!

TLWisfoine

09-23-2007, 04:42 PM

xrayzebra

09-23-2007, 05:27 PM

You obviously don't know your history either. I like it when conservatives try to throw the "we are the party that freed the slaves, and supported civil rights" etc. etc. What you seem to forget is that once the civil rights bill was signed there was a mass exodus from the Democratic party to the Republican Party, and that is also when the previously Democratic south became the home base of the republican party it is today. When President Lyndon Johnson signed the bill he is quoted as saying ""I know the risks are great and we might lose the South, but those sorts of states may be lost anyway." And where did all these racists go, the Republican Party, and the Republican leaders were more than willing to conform their beliefs in order to satisfy their new base. Especially that racist son of a bitch Reagan, every Republicans hero.

Just in case you haven't been keeping up with the news, you have heard of the Republican candidates who have declined an invitation to speak at Howard University and other black avenues. Even Newt Gingrich, one of the most partisan people I know has criticized this. Also Princella Smith a black Republican and someone I have repeatedly reffered to as the "Grand Mamie Dragon" speaks on this. As far as the Democratic party goes I have absolutely no love for them either. I view both parties as being two fingers on the same hand. I am continually perplexed with why the black community is so loyal to a party that hasn't done much for them. "Oh but they attend black churches and play the sax on Arsenio's show." Straight BS if you ask me. And as far as solving things in the black community, I am not ignorant to the fact that there are problems within the black community that needs to be solved. I am just as vocal about that as anybody and if you checked out some of my posts in other forums that are predominately black you will see this. But this being a majority white board I don't preach the same message here as I do there. And I'm also not one of those Uncle Tom's who think's that the black community is the one who holds all of the fault in this. American society has failed the black community and people like you who think and speak in broad genaralities about the black community are of no help either. Being that whites are the ones who hold the positions of power in America and blacks don't the black people who are trying to solve the issues that currently are troubling the black community do need help and people like you are either to stubborn to give it, or just don't give a rats ass. You and your ilk are so quick to lend a helping hand to the country of Israel and others, but when it comes to your own "American brothers" you just want to turn your back on us and just wait for us to internally self destruct. But that's what people such as yourself would love now isn't it?

Walk a mile in my fucking shoes before you start preaching to me about the black community!!!

So the dimm-o-craps of yesteryear are the Republicans
of today. In some cases you may be correct. But it
doesn't change the fact that it was the former who did
the two actions cited.

And you talk about helping hand. What pray tell is this
helping hand we are suppose to lend? Give me some
specifics. More welfare. About schools, yes there was
some inequities in funding at the state level. But
remember something. Funding originally, in at least
Texas, was suppose to come from the local community.
Not State level. Now a good portion does come from the
state and during the past several years supposedly it
has been fixed. Of course it doesn't cure the
stupidity of the people who elect the local school boards
and let them rob the system, now does it. Nor does it
solve the problem of the kids that want stay in school
and finish, no does it. Am I, as a white person, suppose
to get up every morning and force these kids into a
school. It also doesn't solve the problem of parents
who really don't even care of if school keeps. One other
thing, where do you get the idea that it is any of my
responsibility to do anything in the "so called" black
society. Tell me. I took on my responsibility and
raised my three children, who incidentally all have
college degrees and my children's children are doing
the same. Three of them have graduated from college
and the fourth is in her senior year. Where in the world
is your responsibility? That is if you have children. And
how is it my fault or any one's fault that black men wont
stay in a married relationship and help raise their family.
I know that statement is broad and doesn't apply to all
black men, but it certainly does to a majority. Again,
what role can government or anyone play that would
change that. More government programs. Yeah, they
have done a wonderful job of helping the black
community, now haven't they.

I recall you saying Dr. Williams was a "uncle tom' or
words to that affect. Can I ask why? Because he
got an education and tells it like it is or was. I suppose
you think Clarence Thomas is an uncle tom because
he succeeded and worked with Whitey. Also Dr.
Sowell. And any other black member of society that
makes something of themselves and moves out of the
hood. All of the gentlemen have careers that are
demanding and rigid in principle and I might add not
easy to succeed in. I only wish the younger blacks
would look up to them instead of stoop dog or some
of the other gangsta types. Yeah, it is hard to pull your
self up by your boot straps, I know. But it can be done
and has been done. As far as sympathy from me,
no I have none. I don't have to walk in you shoes
my fine adversary. I have been as poor as you can get
and had the soles of my shoes flapping in the breeze
and been hungry. Had people make snide remarks because I was an American. So shove it. Learn to walk in the
shoes of success and suck it up and quit crying.
As far as affarmative action. It may get you a job,
and even keep you a job, but it damn well wont
earn you any respect. You have to do that on your own.
And it is hard work. Live and learn it.

TLWisfoine

09-23-2007, 06:26 PM

So the dimm-o-craps of yesteryear are the Republicans
of today. In some cases you may be correct. But it
doesn't change the fact that it was the former who did
the two actions cited.

And you talk about helping hand. What pray tell is this
helping hand we are suppose to lend? Give me some
specifics. More welfare. About schools, yes there was
some inequities in funding at the state level. But
remember something. Funding originally, in at least
Texas, was suppose to come from the local community.
Not State level. Now a good portion does come from the
state and during the past several years supposedly it
has been fixed. Of course it doesn't cure the
stupidity of the people who elect the local school boards
and let them rob the system, now does it. Nor does it
solve the problem of the kids that want stay in school
and finish, no does it. Am I, as a white person, suppose
to get up every morning and force these kids into a
school. It also doesn't solve the problem of parents
who really don't even care of if school keeps. One other
thing, where do you get the idea that it is any of my
responsibility to do anything in the "so called" black
society. Tell me. I took on my responsibility and
raised my three children, who incidentally all have
college degrees and my children's children are doing
the same. Three of them have graduated from college
and the fourth is in her senior year. Where in the world
is your responsibility? That is if you have children. And
how is it my fault or any one's fault that black men wont
stay in a married relationship and help raise their family.
I know that statement is broad and doesn't apply to all
black men, but it certainly does to a majority. Again,
what role can government or anyone play that would
change that. More government programs. Yeah, they
have done a wonderful job of helping the black
community, now haven't they.

I recall you saying Dr. Williams was a "uncle tom' or
words to that affect. Can I ask why? Because he
got an education and tells it like it is or was. I suppose
you think Clarence Thomas is an uncle tom because
he succeeded and worked with Whitey. Also Dr.
Sowell. And any other black member of society that
makes something of themselves and moves out of the
hood. All of the gentlemen have careers that are
demanding and rigid in principle and I might add not
easy to succeed in. I only wish the younger blacks
would look up to them instead of stoop dog or some
of the other gangsta types. Yeah, it is hard to pull your
self up by your boot straps, I know. But it can be done
and has been done. As far as sympathy from me,
no I have none. I don't have to walk in you shoes
my fine adversary. I have been as poor as you can get
and had the soles of my shoes flapping in the breeze
and been hungry. Had people make snide remarks because I was an American. So shove it. Learn to walk in the
shoes of success and suck it up and quit crying.
As far as affarmative action. It may get you a job,
and even keep you a job, but it damn well wont
earn you any respect. You have to do that on your own.
And it is hard work. Live and learn it.

This is fucking rich. Compassionate Conservatism right before our very eyes.

No it doesn't change the fact that it the former who did the actions cited, but just as you and the rest of your ilk will say about Democrats, you have strayed so far from your original message that it really is irrelavant what you did before.

I should know better than to try to speak with someone who believes that blacks to this day are not still disenfranchised from many forms of employment and that the only racism that exists is practiced by blacks on whites, but here goes nothing. Its attitudes such as yours that has this country to this day so racially divided. You and your ilk just don't care about your fellow man, and this is not only a problem with whites, its a problem that is in the black community as well. These are problems that many in the black community have tried to address, but there's only so much we can do when we are not the ones who hold the power. And when one does speak out many people such as yourself will just call them out as a race baiting racist playing the race card and not even listen to what they have to say. How's that for progress and unity. And with your comment about the majority of black men not being able to stay in a relationship and help raise their families, their you go speaking in broad generalities again. Just go ahead and be like your boy Walter Williams or Jesse Lee Peterson and tell me how you think blacks are just a morally corrupt group of people. I know your thinking it. Just do yourself a favor and just don't speak on things you know little to nothing about especially since you have expressed your indifference in the matter.

Speaking of Walter Williams and the rest of his self hating ilk, the reason I don't care for him and black people like him is because they look down on their own people constantly telling us how pathetic we are, and I really find it funny that Williams and the rest of his conservative black friends will be so quick to speak out against Affirmative Action and yet that is the same program that helped them get to where they are. I guess with your anti affirmative action logic you shouldn't hold them to such high esteem. But they are examples that if given a chance, that black people can achieve just as much as whites. I also find it hilarious that you compare being poor and white to being poor and black, and your sob story about being made fun of because you're an American. Funny stuff!!!

Yes many of the issues that are troubling to the black community falls on the feet of blacks, but it is in my opinion that many of these issues can be nipped in the bud if we combat some of these issues while many of our black brothers and sisters are young and impressionable and show them that we at least give a damn. You'd be suprised the amount of hoplessness many of these children feel because they feel as if nobody cares about them. It'll break your heart. But maybe not yours since you have no sympathy.

Wild Cobra

09-23-2007, 07:33 PM

I knew this would be true if I could find it, and I finally did.

What am I talking about? The obvious to those of us who know the main stream media's tactics. If Jena was a republican community, the media would have been shoving in our face "republican mayor," "republican DA," etc. etc.

Guess what...

Jena normally votes democrat!

Yep, that right.

What's wrong here? I thought it was the republicans that were racists?

Let's start with the school board:

District 1 - W. O. Poole (D)
District 2 - Howard “Coach” McCarty, (D)
District 3 - Unknown
District 4 - Eli Cooper, (R)
District 5 - Billy Fowler, (N)
District 6 - Alvin J. “Buddy” Bethard, Jr., (D)
District 7 - Walter Creel, (D)
District 8 - Dolan Pendarvis, (R)

Guess who the DA is...

Reed Walters, another democrat. He seems to have a connection with another democrat, Speedy O. Long, a democrat white separatist!

Now the City Council Members are 3 republicans and 2 democrats, but both democrats running won! Could five democrats have won if five ran?

Oh... They also helped elect the current democrat governor!

Jena 6 and the Republicans? (http://louisianaconservative.com/?p=221)

ChumpDumper

09-23-2007, 08:19 PM

Wild Cobra supports the Democrats of Jena.

PixelPusher

09-23-2007, 08:29 PM

Maybe Jena's Dixiecrats didn't get the memo about switching parties after 1964.

Tippecanoe

09-23-2007, 08:48 PM

not sure if this has been posted, but this article gives a new perspective on the jena 6

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070922/ap_on_re_us/a_place_called_jena

Black and white becomes gray in La. town

By TODD LEWAN, AP National Writer Sat Sep 22, 7:33 PM ET

JENA, La. - It's got all the elements of a Delta blues ballad from the days of Jim Crow: hangman's nooses dangling from a shade tree; a mysterious fire in the night; swift deliberations by a condemning, all-white jury.
ADVERTISEMENT

And drawn by this story, which evokes the worst of a nightmarish past, they came by the thousands this past week to Jena, La. — to demand justice, to show strength, to beat back the forces of racism as did their parents and grandparents.

But there are many in Jena who say the tale of the "Jena Six" — the black teenagers who were charged with attempted murder and conspiracy for attacking a white classmate at Jena High School last December — is not as simple as all that.

Black and white, they say that in its repeated retelling — enhanced by omissions and alterations of fact — the story has taken on a life of its own. It has transformed a school-yard stomping into an international cause celebre, and those accused of participating in it into what one major Southern daily came to describe as "latter-day Scottsboro Boys."

And they say that while their town's race relations are not unblemished, this is not the cauldron of bigotry that has been depicted.

To Ben Reid, 61, who set down roots in Jena in 1957 and lived here throughout the civil rights era, "this whole thing ain't no downright, racial affair."

Reid, who is black, presently serves on the LaSalle Parish council. He reads the papers. He hears the talk outside of church on Sundays about how the Jena Six business is dividing his hometown down racial lines.

He doesn't buy it.

"You have good people here and bad people here, on both sides. This thing has been blown out of proportion. What we ought to do is sit down and talk this thing out, 'cause once all is said and done and you media folks leave, we're the ones who're going to have to live here."

Clearly, something bad occurred in Jena, population 2,971, an old sawmill town in LaSalle Parish that, once upon a time, was Ku Klux Klan country. And, as most white and black residents readily agree, there is no good reason for embracing what unfolded here.

But what happened, exactly?

The story goes that a year ago, a black student asked at an assembly if he could sit in the shade of a live oak, which, the story goes, was labeled "the white tree" because only white students hung out there. The next day, three nooses dangled from the oak — code for "KKK" — the handiwork of three white students, who were suspended for just three days.

Much of that is disputed. What happened next is not: Two months later, an arsonist torched a wing of Jena High School. (The case remains unsolved.) Two fights between blacks and whites roiled the town that weekend, culminating in a school-yard brawl on Dec. 4 that led the district attorney to charge the Jena Six with attempted murder. The lethal weapon he cited to justify the charge: the boys' sneakers.

In July, the first to be tried, Mychal Bell, was convicted after two hours of deliberations by an all-white jury on reduced charges of aggravated battery and conspiracy to commit it.

(It was widely reported that Bell, now 17, was an honor student with no prior criminal record. Although he had a high grade-point average, he was, in fact, on probation for at least two counts of battery and a count of criminal damage to property. In any event, his conviction was overturned because an appeals court ruled he should not have been tried as an adult.)

There is, however, a more nuanced rendition of events — one that can be found in court testimony, in interviews with teachers, officials and students at Jena High, and in public statements from a U.S. attorney who reviewed the case for possible federal intervention.

Consider:

_The so-called "white tree" at Jena High, often reported to be the domain of only white students, was nothing of the sort, according to teachers and school administrators; students of all races, they say, congregated under it at one time or another.

_Two nooses — not three — were found dangling from the tree. Beyond being offensive to blacks, the nooses were cut down because black and white students "were playing with them, pulling on them, jump-swinging from them, and putting their heads through them," according to a black teacher who witnessed the scene.

_There was no connection between the September noose incident and December attack, according to Donald Washington, an attorney for the U.S. Justice Department in western Louisiana, who investigated claims that these events might be race-related hate crimes.

_The three youths accused of hanging the nooses were not suspended for just three days — they were isolated at an alternative school for about a month, and then given an in-school suspension for two weeks.

_The six-member jury that convicted Bell was, indeed, all white. However, only one in 10 people in LaSalle Parish is African American, and though black residents were selected randomly by computer and summoned for jury selection, none showed up.

About 225 miles and a world apart from racially mixed New Orleans, Jena (pronounced JEE-nuh) is a throwback.

Here, one refers to elders as "Sir," and "Ma'am." Children still pull catfish from creeks; couples court at Jena Giants football games; families rope goats and calves at weekend rodeos.

In a place where per capita income is $13,761, there aren't any swank, French restaurants, but rather, family eateries such as the Burger Barn, Ginny's and Maw & Paw's. Most of Jena's 14-odd churches stage Easter egg hunts. On summer afternoons, sweet tea and lemonade on a neighbor's front porch are obligatory.

And there are endearing figures, like the designated town sweeper who mountain bikes around town with a wagon full of rakes, brooms, dustpans and cleaning fluids, stopping only to sweep shopowners' parking lots or to distribute complimentary bubble gum to grade schoolers.

Not all vestiges of the past are beloved, or quaint, of course.

There are no black lawyers, no black doctors and one black employee in the town's half-dozen banks. (The employee is male, an accountant who works out of public view.)

Economics play a role in this; with the closure of the sawmills in the '50s, the town now relies heavily on the exploitation of oil and natural gas, offshore. There are relatively few good-paying jobs in what is gradually becoming a retirement community, and some point out that African Americans with higher educations tend to leave the parish.

"To a certain extent, that's true," says Anthony Jackson, one of Jena High's two black teachers. "But I know some people who tried to stay here and couldn't get good jobs. There was, for instance, a gentleman who graduated as a certified biology teacher, but he left because he didn't want to deal with what's going on here."

Cleveland Riser, 75, who began working in Jena as a teacher and then rose to become an assistant superintendent of schools in LaSalle Parish, says blacks have long had trouble getting ahead in Jena.

"In my experience, the opportunity for advancing in my profession was denied, in my opinion, because I was black — not because I was unprepared professionally, or because of my performance."

Here and across the "crossroads" of Louisiana, there are Klan supporters, to be sure; David Duke, the former KKK Grand Wizard, carried LaSalle Parish in his 1991 run for state governor. And Jacqueline Hatcher, a 59-year-old African American, remembers when, as a ninth grader in 1962, she saw a large cross burning out front of the all-black Good Pine High School.

"We heard the Klan was meeting in the woods because there was going to be desegregation in the schools and they didn't want that," says Hatcher. Still, no one recalls seeing any public lynchings or whites in robes and masks for a half century.

"If I could take you back to 60 years ago, and then fast forward to today, you'd have to say we've come a long way," says Billy Wayne Fowler, a white school-board member who is one of the few leaders with the school administration or local law enforcement who still talks to reporters.

Most townsfolk, he says, interpreted the events of last year pretty much the same way — that a small minority of troublemakers, both black and white, got out of hand, and that the responses from authorities weren't always on the mark.

The boys who hung the nooses "probably should have been expelled," Fowler says, and the murder charges brought against the black teenagers were "too harsh, too severe."

Tommy Farris, 27, an oil driller, and his wife, Nikki, 29, a registered nurse, concur — to a point. "Those boys should have expelled," says Nikki, who is white. "It was no innocent prank. I think those boys knew what they were starting by hanging those nooses from a tree."

Tommy, who is black, agrees. But free the Jena Six?

"That's not going to happen," he says, adding that he thinks the black teenagers are being given a fair chance to defend themselves against the charges.

Johnny Wilkinson, 44, a platform officer on an oil rig, and his wife, Karen, a 47-year-old director of nurses at the local hospital, are, like many couples in town, wrestling with that question of fairness.

The noose hanging was wrong, say the Wilkinsons, who are white, and the boys who did it should have been more severely punished.

Still, "They knocked that boy out cold and were stomping on him," Johnny says. "They might have killed him. I believe punishment would have been measured the same way if it had been the opposite way around and six whites had attacked a black kid."

(The teenager who was beaten, Justin Barker, 17, was knocked out but walked out of a hospital after two hours of treatment for a concussion and an eye that was swollen shut. He attended a school ring ceremony later that night.)

Adds Karen: "A sentence of 15 years is fair, but I do think they should be eligible for parole. Who are we to say they can't be members of society?"

But to Braxter Hatcher, 62, a janitor at Jena High for 18 years, such punishment would be excessive, and would only serve to reinforce suspicions in the black community that the worst kind of "Deep South justice" still exists here.

"They haven't always been fair in the courthouse with us," says Hatcher, who is black. "If you're black, they go overboard sometimes. I think this was just a fight between boys. I don't think it was attempted murder."

A number of other blacks — and whites — have raised similar questions about the Jena Six episode, particularly the manner in which authorities handled a series of racially charged incidents leading up to it.

Why, they ask, wasn't the noose incident ever reported to police? (A report might have triggered a hate-crime investigation, although federal authorities rarely go after juveniles in such cases.) And when whites and blacks tangled several times before the Jena Six episode, why did authorities charge the whites with misdemeanors — or not at all — while charging blacks with felonies?

Reed Walters, the LaSalle Parish district attorney who is prosecuting the cases of the Jena Six, insisted the case "is not and never has been about race. It is about finding justice for an innocent victim and holding people accountable for their actions."

Huey Crockett, 50, lives with his wife, Carla, 45, in a heavily wooded, predominantly black district just beyond Jena's limits, an area known as "The Country." The Crocketts, who are black, have complained to police that Bell and other youngsters were causing trouble in their neighborhood — scratching cars with keys, breaking the windows of parked cars, spraying property with paint.

The authorities, Crockett says, were always slow to respond.

"But as soon as he had a run-in with a white boy, they came down on him like a hammer. That's not right. If I call the police for an incident here, it may take them an hour, an hour and half to get out here. But they'll be right out in an instant if a white person calls them."

What also rankles African Americans in Jena, says Riser, the former school superintendent, is that whites charged with the same crimes as blacks receive more lenient punishment. "What this boils down to is: Why is there a double standard?"

On a road into town, a brick portal welcomes visitors to Jena, touting it as "A Nice Place to Call Home." But when the national spotlight goes away, will it be that nice place?

A week ago, Eddie Thompson, a white pastor at the Sanctuary Family Worship Center, would have said no. But on Wednesday, as thousands of demonstrators prepared to pour into tiny Jena, religious leaders held a unified church service, attended by blacks and whites.

"We prayed for one another, prayed for all of the boys involved in this," Thompson says. "We're not used to the glare, but something positive is going on here. I believe that we're maybe listening to our neighbors better, when we didn't listen before."

Yonivore

09-23-2007, 09:12 PM

Quit fucking up the narrative, Tip.

TLWisfoine

09-23-2007, 10:56 PM

boutons_

09-24-2007, 12:29 AM

September 24, 2007

Politics in Black and White

By PAUL KRUGMAN

Last Thursday there was a huge march in Jena, La., to protest the harsh and unequal treatment of six black students arrested in the beating of a white classmate. Students who hung nooses to warn blacks not to sit under a “white” tree were suspended for three days; on the other hand, the students accused in the beating were initially charged with second-degree attempted murder.

And one of the Jena Six remains in jail, even though appeals courts have voided his conviction on the grounds that he was improperly tried as an adult.

Many press accounts of the march have a tone of amazement. Scenes like those in Jena, the stories seemed to imply, belonged in the 1960s, not the 21st century. The headline on the New York Times report, “Protest in Louisiana Case Echoes the Civil Rights Era,” was fairly typical.

But the reality is that things haven’t changed nearly as much as people think. Racial tension, especially in the South, has never gone away, and has never stopped being important. And race remains one of the defining factors in modern American politics.

Consider voting in last year’s Congressional elections. Republicans, as President Bush conceded, received a “thumping,” with almost every major demographic group turning against them. The one big exception was Southern whites, 62 percent of whom voted Republican in House races.

And yes, Southern white exceptionalism is about race, much more than it is about moral values, religion, support for the military or other explanations sometimes offered. There’s a large statistical literature on the subject, whose conclusion is summed up by the political scientist Thomas F. Schaller in his book “Whistling Past Dixie”: “Despite the best efforts of Republican spinmeisters to depict American conservatism as a nonracial phenomenon, the partisan impact of racial attitudes in the South is stronger today than in the past.”

Republican politicians, who understand quite well that the G.O.P.’s national success since the 1970s owes everything to the partisan switch of Southern whites, have tacitly acknowledged this reality. Since the days of Gerald Ford, just about every Republican presidential campaign has included some symbolic gesture of approval for good old-fashioned racism.

Thus Ronald Reagan, who began his political career by campaigning against California’s Fair Housing Act, started his 1980 campaign with a speech supporting states’ rights delivered just outside Philadelphia, Miss., where three civil rights workers were murdered. In 2000, Mr. Bush made a pilgrimage to Bob Jones University, famed at the time for its ban on interracial dating.

And all four leading Republican candidates for the 2008 nomination have turned down an invitation to a debate on minority issues scheduled to air on PBS this week.

Yet if the marchers at Jena reminded us that America still hasn’t fully purged itself of the poisonous legacy of slavery, it would be wrong to suggest that the nation has made no progress. Racism, though not gone, is greatly diminished: both opinion polls and daily experience suggest that we are truly becoming a more tolerant, open society.

And the cynicism of the “Southern strategy” introduced by Richard Nixon, which delivered decades of political victories to Republicans, is now starting to look like a trap for the G.O.P.

One of the truly remarkable things about the contest for the Republican nomination is the way the contenders have snubbed not just blacks — who, given the G.O.P.’s modern history, probably won’t vote for a Republican in significant numbers no matter what — but Hispanics. In July, all the major contenders refused invitations to address the National Council of La Raza, which Mr. Bush addressed in 2000. Univision, the Spanish-language TV network, had to cancel a debate scheduled for Sept. 16 because only John McCain was willing to come.

If this sounds like a good way to ensure defeat in future elections, that’s because it is: Hispanics are a rapidly growing force in the electorate.

But to get the Republican nomination, a candidate must appeal to the base — and the base consists, in large part, of Southern whites who carry over to immigrants the same racial attitudes that brought them into the Republican fold to begin with. As a result, you have the spectacle of Rudy Giuliani and Mitt Romney, pragmatists on immigration issues when they actually had to govern in diverse states, trying to reinvent themselves as defenders of Fortress America.

And both Hispanics and Asians, another growing force in the electorate, are getting the message. Last year they voted overwhelmingly Democratic, by 69 percent and 62 percent respectively.

In other words, it looks as if the Republican Party is about to start paying a price for its history of exploiting racial antagonism. If that happens, it will be deeply ironic. But it will also be poetic justice.

======================

Repugs are repugnant

Wild Cobra

09-24-2007, 03:38 AM

:dramaquee What does this have to do with anything?
I'm sorry, I thought you started the party issue:

The same party that you support have historically and to this day are still ignoring issues within the black community most recently by declining to go to a debate that is being done at a historically black college.

You go on to compare republicans with keeping the blacks down in various postings. I would ask how does that apply when Jena is more democrat then republican?

You see, the thing is, democrats and liberals tend to make empty promises to the black community, to buy there vote. More republicans and conservatives tend to believe in equal rights, and that we are all created equal. For one to say that we have to give something to the black community is the same as saying they are not equal! What an insult!

The pressing issues in the black community should be making them get off their asses and trying to make a better life for themselves, rather than trying to vote in politicians who say they will give them something!

Now you have an exchange about who did what political wise. All the time, nobody is addressing what the black community needs to do to help itself. More republican and conservatives believe in getting out of peoples way so they can improve themselves. Democrats and liberals want to tell everyone how to live and use transfers of money. When you keep someone dependant on a system rather than making them fend for themselves, you maintain a status quo that is not much better than slavery. When dignity is lost, what is there to live for?

ChumpDumper

09-24-2007, 03:45 AM

For one to say that we have to give something to the black community is the same as saying they are not equal!If the thing that is given is equal rights?
The pressing issues in the black community should be making them get off their asses and trying to make a better life for themselves, rather than trying to vote in politicians who say they will give them something!Is that what is being asked for in Jena? A handout?
Now you have an exchange about who did what political wise. All the time, nobody is addressing what the black community needs to do to help itself.Reproduce in Jena until they have a more sizable voting bloc.

xrayzebra

09-24-2007, 10:00 AM

This is fucking rich. Compassionate Conservatism right before our very eyes.

No it doesn't change the fact that it the former who did the actions cited, but just as you and the rest of your ilk will say about Democrats, you have strayed so far from your original message that it really is irrelavant what you did before.

I should know better than to try to speak with someone who believes that blacks to this day are not still disenfranchised from many forms of employment and that the only racism that exists is practiced by blacks on whites, but here goes nothing. Its attitudes such as yours that has this country to this day so racially divided. You and your ilk just don't care about your fellow man, and this is not only a problem with whites, its a problem that is in the black community as well. These are problems that many in the black community have tried to address, but there's only so much we can do when we are not the ones who hold the power. And when one does speak out many people such as yourself will just call them out as a race baiting racist playing the race card and not even listen to what they have to say. How's that for progress and unity. And with your comment about the majority of black men not being able to stay in a relationship and help raise their families, their you go speaking in broad generalities again. Just go ahead and be like your boy Walter Williams or Jesse Lee Peterson and tell me how you think blacks are just a morally corrupt group of people. I know your thinking it. Just do yourself a favor and just don't speak on things you know little to nothing about especially since you have expressed your indifference in the matter.

Speaking of Walter Williams and the rest of his self hating ilk, the reason I don't care for him and black people like him is because they look down on their own people constantly telling us how pathetic we are, and I really find it funny that Williams and the rest of his conservative black friends will be so quick to speak out against Affirmative Action and yet that is the same program that helped them get to where they are. I guess with your anti affirmative action logic you shouldn't hold them to such high esteem. But they are examples that if given a chance, that black people can achieve just as much as whites. I also find it hilarious that you compare being poor and white to being poor and black, and your sob story about being made fun of because you're an American. Funny stuff!!!

Yes many of the issues that are troubling to the black community falls on the feet of blacks, but it is in my opinion that many of these issues can be nipped in the bud if we combat some of these issues while many of our black brothers and sisters are young and impressionable and show them that we at least give a damn. You'd be suprised the amount of hoplessness many of these children feel because they feel as if nobody cares about them. It'll break your heart. But maybe not yours since you have no sympathy.\

You really do need to get a life. Funny, black people
being poor is much worst that white people being poor.
And I am a Compassionate Conservative with no
compassion. You are a joke, a really sad joke. You have
no idea of what you want. You just want it and whitey
has kept you from getting it. Funny, though that is not
true. There a many black people who are very successful.
Only you don't see them, because they do like the rest
of mankind, they get up, go to work everyday and
try to get ahead in life. Every study I have seen says the
same thing. Want to get ahead, black/white/yellow/green
or whatever, finish high school and go on to college if
possible. That is the secret to get the young black
person out of the hood. And into a neighborhood of
normalcy. You want me to be compassionate, will that
help all those who live off welfare? How. I ask before
and you still haven't answered: what is my responsibility?
I can guarantee you if I went into a black neighborhood
and started trying to tell some/any family or young
tough hanging on a street corner to get his/her butt
back in school I would be a statistic in a New York
minute. If I tried to go into a black neighborhood and
told them to quit the jive talk and speak real English
the same results would occur. I have no desire to end
my life in that fashion. Look what you say about people
who have made something of their lives and try to tell
you that it is YOU not THEM that has to do the heavy
lifting. No one can live your life for you, that is your
responsibility and yours alone. I learned that the hard
way myself. Thank God! Don't talk down to me about
being poor. My fine adversary, poor is damn well poor
hungry is damn well hungry. And yes, there is nothing
wrong with helping your fellow man, regardless of race.
But helping and supporting them are two different things.
The means to end poverty have always been out there,
the same with homelessness. The poor will always exist,
why, because in most all cases young people will go
through a period of low wages. It is called the starting
point. The secret to improving yourself is called being
dependable. You show up, do the job you are hired to do,
and try doing it better than anyone else. I will guarantee
you success and I don't give a damn what race you are.
I know of what I speak. Those qualities are rare in the
workplace. Even a young person flipping hamburgers
can succeed at McDonalds if he displays those traits. He
will be the boss instead of the flipper and believe me
the boss makes a hell of a lot more than the worker.
But crying I am being held back cause of whatever
reason is not acceptable. It is not a new thing either.
Believe me many people of all races uses the same lame
damn excuse. So if you will excuse me, I have finished
my dissertation on this race subject.

About Jena, I made the statement which I think has
been shown to be correct. There are many aspects that
have not been reported correctly or otherwise and there
is a good possibility an error in the justice system. It
is in the hands of the court system, not in Jena, so lets
just see what happens.

clambake

09-24-2007, 10:43 AM

why don't you just tell them to be with happy the freedom gift!!!

TLWisfoine

09-25-2007, 03:45 AM

I'm sorry, I thought you started the party issue:

You go on to compare republicans with keeping the blacks down in various postings. I would ask how does that apply when Jena is more democrat then republican?

You see, the thing is, democrats and liberals tend to make empty promises to the black community, to buy there vote. More republicans and conservatives tend to believe in equal rights, and that we are all created equal. For one to say that we have to give something to the black community is the same as saying they are not equal! What an insult!

The pressing issues in the black community should be making them get off their asses and trying to make a better life for themselves, rather than trying to vote in politicians who say they will give them something!

Now you have an exchange about who did what political wise. All the time, nobody is addressing what the black community needs to do to help itself. More republican and conservatives believe in getting out of peoples way so they can improve themselves. Democrats and liberals want to tell everyone how to live and use transfers of money. When you keep someone dependant on a system rather than making them fend for themselves, you maintain a status quo that is not much better than slavery. When dignity is lost, what is there to live for?

Actually, you and your boy ray did. So just tell me this, do you think those politicians in Jena are racist just because they are Democrats?

TLWisfoine

09-25-2007, 03:46 AM

\

You really do need to get a life. Funny, black people
being poor is much worst that white people being poor.
And I am a Compassionate Conservative with no
compassion. You are a joke, a really sad joke. You have
no idea of what you want. You just want it and whitey
has kept you from getting it. Funny, though that is not
true. There a many black people who are very successful.
Only you don't see them, because they do like the rest
of mankind, they get up, go to work everyday and
try to get ahead in life. Every study I have seen says the
same thing. Want to get ahead, black/white/yellow/green
or whatever, finish high school and go on to college if
possible. That is the secret to get the young black
person out of the hood. And into a neighborhood of
normalcy. You want me to be compassionate, will that
help all those who live off welfare? How. I ask before
and you still haven't answered: what is my responsibility?
I can guarantee you if I went into a black neighborhood
and started trying to tell some/any family or young
tough hanging on a street corner to get his/her butt
back in school I would be a statistic in a New York
minute. If I tried to go into a black neighborhood and
told them to quit the jive talk and speak real English
the same results would occur. I have no desire to end
my life in that fashion. Look what you say about people
who have made something of their lives and try to tell
you that it is YOU not THEM that has to do the heavy
lifting. No one can live your life for you, that is your
responsibility and yours alone. I learned that the hard
way myself. Thank God! Don't talk down to me about
being poor. My fine adversary, poor is damn well poor
hungry is damn well hungry. And yes, there is nothing
wrong with helping your fellow man, regardless of race.
But helping and supporting them are two different things.
The means to end poverty have always been out there,
the same with homelessness. The poor will always exist,
why, because in most all cases young people will go
through a period of low wages. It is called the starting
point. The secret to improving yourself is called being
dependable. You show up, do the job you are hired to do,
and try doing it better than anyone else. I will guarantee
you success and I don't give a damn what race you are.
I know of what I speak. Those qualities are rare in the
workplace. Even a young person flipping hamburgers
can succeed at McDonalds if he displays those traits. He
will be the boss instead of the flipper and believe me
the boss makes a hell of a lot more than the worker.
But crying I am being held back cause of whatever
reason is not acceptable. It is not a new thing either.
Believe me many people of all races uses the same lame
damn excuse. So if you will excuse me, I have finished
my dissertation on this race subject.

About Jena, I made the statement which I think has
been shown to be correct. There are many aspects that
have not been reported correctly or otherwise and there
is a good possibility an error in the justice system. It
is in the hands of the court system, not in Jena, so lets
just see what happens.

Well it appears that we are both entrenched in our beliefs and aren't going too be budging anytime soon. I'm done with this as well, my fine adversary.

DarkReign

09-25-2007, 08:37 AM

Good, fucking, game.

Too
Fucking
Easy.

MannyIsGod > Wild Cobra

Sooooo, what FPS/MMO do you currently/formerly play?

I have read your tag lines a thousand times, in other places.

GFG?

DarkReign

09-25-2007, 08:56 AM

Yes I know why. You can start with this phony war on drugs that goes hard after the users and not the suppliers. Also, how in the hell is crack cocaine a worse drug than cocaine and why does it carry a heavier prison sentence when you are caught using it. You can thank every black persons hero for that, Bill Clinton.

Also you can point out the disproportianate funding of schools and the cutting of after school programs in the urban cities of America. Unless you are inclined to believe that blacks somehow have this criminal gene that whites don't.

Obviously, its not a "criminal gene". Its poverty. Generational poverty combined with almost-completely-absent education.

Its no question, by ratio, black people commit way more felony crimes than whites. But why is the question?

I have steered away from government intervention as the answer in the sociological persepective of America, and I hold to that. People have to want to change themselves before anyone can help them do it (I am not speaking categorically of black people there).

As for the disparity in school funding. First, the government should not be running out education system. It was never intended to and was vehemently warned against by this country's forefathers, but I digress. The reality is, that they do. With that in mind...

If I am not mistaken, school funding is done on a local level. I can only speak of the Detroit Metro Area (for obvious reasons) where schools, education, lack of $$ are huge issues for the city right now. It has to do with everyone leaving the city except black people. What was once a bustling city 50 years ago is a ghost-town. When population leaves, so do tax dollars on wages in a city like Detroit that has a city tax.

Therefore, less money to fund education (which gets idiot, wanna-be gangsters like Kilpatrick re-elected) and other services to the city's citizens. 48 school closings across the city last year alone.

The problem is exponential. As the population dwindles, the problems get worse and worse. No companies are moving to Detroit to employ, which means the trend of an ever-decreasing yearly population will continue until its death (which, judging by the state's budget crisis and financial ruin, will be quite soon).

Good people live in Detroit...hardworking folks. There is just not enough of them left to cover the detriments. As long as that is the case, the money will never, ever move back in. Which means the city will die. Sad, really.

Wild Cobra

09-25-2007, 04:29 PM

Actually, you and your boy ray did. So just tell me this, do you think those politicians in Jena are racist just because they are Democrats?
No, not because of party. The point was being made that republicans are racists by remarks in the thread, therefore, I simply pointed out the makeup of the politicians. If democrats were so much better than republicans regarding race, and if this was an issue of prejudice, why is it still happening?

I believe someone said Jena was republican controlled... FALSE...

You forget that the civil rights vote had more than 80% of the republicans voting YES and only about 60% democrat voting YES when it needed a 2/3 vote.

Yes... Republicans free the slaves starting with president Lincoln, and cont9inued through history to be the less racist of the two parties.

You make a claim that democrats changed sides in the south to republicans, and I agree with Ray that some did. So what. That doesn't means it was the racist democrats that switched. Like Zell Miller says "I didn't leave the democrat party, they left me." I say it's more likely the democrats who changed didn't like the shift of the democrat party to the degree of liberalism they moved to. That's why democrats defected! The conservative ones left. It wasn't about race, but right and wrong.

So TL...

You make it about party. I am just showing there is not a connection between the paries as you imply.

Yonivore

09-27-2007, 11:33 AM

On the 50th anniversary of President Eisenhower's use of troops during the Little Rock school desegregation crisis, Shelby Steele (http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110010650) finds that this event "was the beginning of a profoundly different America." He writes:

[T]he deeper historical importance of the Little Rock crisis follows from the simple fact that it was televised. . . .[T]here was the daily gauntlet that the black students were made to walk--innocence face to face with evil. And, finally, there was great suspense. How would it all end? Would there by a military clash, another little civil war between North and South?

So Americans watched by the millions and, in this watching, saw something that would change the country fundamentally. Every day for weeks they saw white people so consumed with racial hatred that they looked bestial and subhuman. When white racism was a confident power, it could look like propriety itself, like good manners. But here, in its insecurity, it was grotesque and shocking. Worse, it was there for the entire world to see, and so it broke through the national denial. The Little Rock crisis revealed the evil at the core of segregation, and it launched the stigmatization of white Americans as racists that persists to this day. After Little Rock whites stood permanently accused. They would have to prove a negative--that they were not racist--in order to claim decency. And this need to forever beg one's innocence is the very essence of white guilt. . . .

By the mid-1960s this [guilt] had already given us a new illiberal liberalism--a busybody, interventionist liberalism that was more bent on erecting an American redemption than ensuring freedom. The Great Society wanted to make America look like a country in which Little Rock could never have happened. It failed because it was a venture in denial rather than in realistic social transformation. And today's "diversity" will fail because it, too, is only a denial--a kitsch that gives us an image of an America shorn of Little Rocks.
Well said.

Fifty years ago, the face of the civil rights movement was innocent black school children who were trying to get an education. Today, it's black teenagers who beat a white student unconscious and apparently were overcharged by a prosecutor.

We've come a long way, baby.

George Gervin's Afro

09-27-2007, 12:18 PM

No, not because of party. The point was being made that republicans are racists by remarks in the thread, therefore, I simply pointed out the makeup of the politicians. If democrats were so much better than republicans regarding race, and if this was an issue of prejudice, why is it still happening?

I believe someone said Jena was republican controlled... FALSE...

You forget that the civil rights vote had more than 80% of the republicans voting YES and only about 60% democrat voting YES when it needed a 2/3 vote.

Yes... Republicans free the slaves starting with president Lincoln, and cont9inued through history to be the less racist of the two parties.

You make a claim that democrats changed sides in the south to republicans, and I agree with Ray that some did. So what. That doesn't means it was the racist democrats that switched. Like Zell Miller says "I didn't leave the democrat party, they left me." I say it's more likely the democrats who changed didn't like the shift of the democrat party to the degree of liberalism they moved to. That's why democrats defected! The conservative ones left. It wasn't about race, but right and wrong.

So TL...

You make it about party. I am just showing there is not a connection between the paries as you imply.

how smart does old zell look now?? :lol

By the way you can keep mr spitwad

Nbadan

09-27-2007, 06:07 PM

Hey Chumpy, 'black leaders' finally dug down deep enough to bail Bell...

Bail was being posted Thursday for Mychal Bell, a black teenager accused of beating a white classmate, after a district attorney's announcement that he would not appeal a higher court's decision moving Bell's case to juvenile court, according to the Rev. Al Sharpton.

Bell's bail was set at $45,000, Sharpton said. The paperwork was being worked out, he said, and the bail bondsman was at the courthouse.

Earlier Thursday, Bell was moved from jail to a juvenile facility, according to his attorney, Lewis Scott.

LaSalle Parish District Attorney Reed Walters said his decision not to appeal was based on what he believed is best for the victim in the case.

"While I believe that a review would have merit ... I believe it is in the best interest of the victim and his family not to delay this matter any further and move it to its conclusion," Walters told reporters.

CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/09/27/jena.six/index.html)

cuongnet

09-29-2007, 12:55 AM

Wish I new that yesterday. There was a freaking giant roach on the ceiling at home and I tried killing it with my sandal. Bad Idea. That fucker started flying all over the place. I ran out of there like a little 12 yr old girl. Cant stand those things.

Nbadan

09-30-2007, 08:38 PM

By MICHAEL KUNZELMAN

http://ak.imgfarm.com/images/ap/Jena_Six.sff_LAAB134_20070927220125.jpg
Mychal Bell, one of the Jena Six, sits in his father's home in Jena, La., Thursday, Sept. 27, 2007.(AP Photo/Kita Wright)

NEW ORLEANS (AP) - When a 17-year-old at the center of a civil rights controversy in a small Louisiana town left jail, he had a stranger to thank.

Dr. Stephen Ayers, who lives about 135 miles away, said he felt compelled to help the family of Mychal Bell by posting the teen's bond and allowing him to go home for the first time in 10 months.

Bell is one of six black teenagers accused of beating a white classmate in the central Louisiana town of Jena, where more than 20,000 demonstrators gathered last week to protest what they perceive as differences in how black and white suspects are treated.

Ayers, 42, of Lake Charles in southwestern Louisiana, said Friday that he isn't politically active and isn't usually one to "get into things like this." But then a patient whose feet hurt after the march gave him a report on the event, in which Ayers did not participate.

AP News (http://apnews.excite.com/article/20070929/D8RUPKMO1.html)

TLWisfoine

10-01-2007, 03:13 PM

[B]By MICHAEL KUNZELMAN

http://ak.imgfarm.com/images/ap/Jena_Six.sff_LAAB134_20070927220125.jpg
Mychal Bell, one of the Jena Six, sits in his father's home in Jena, La., Thursday, Sept. 27, 2007.(AP Photo/Kita Wright)

AP News (http://apnews.excite.com/article/20070929/D8RUPKMO1.html)

How much you want to bet Wild Cobra and his ilk wishes that it was another chair he was sitting in.

Поповић

10-01-2007, 09:16 PM

He's been arrested 4 times but he's a sweet little angel.

Wild Cobra

10-02-2007, 05:24 AM

How much you want to bet Wild Cobra and his ilk wishes that it was another chair he was sitting in.
You would lose such a bet.

I just want to see justice served. You cannot let someone get away with assault just because they play the race card.

703 Spurz

10-03-2007, 03:19 PM

How much you want to bet Wild Cobra and his ilk wishes that it was another chair he was sitting in.

Electric chair no but some sort of punishment. Fuck the racism excuses. What these guys did, white and black, aren't right. They all deserve to pay for what they did

Wild Cobra

10-07-2007, 08:16 PM

I should have done this sooner. I looked for key word searches with "lasso" and "jena six". My guess about the nooses being lassos is correct!

Jena 6 - The Story (http://newyorkbeacon.com/news/Article/Article.asp?NewsID=82409&sID=4):

The following day, September 1, 2006, three nooses were found hanging from the tree in question. Two of the nooses were black and one was gold: the Jena High School colors.

'Jena Six' defendant Mychal Bell released from jail (http://thetowntalk.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070927/NEWS01/70927027):

"<<<<The following day, September 1, 2006, three nooses were found hanging from the tree in question. Two of the nooses were black and one was gold: the Jena High School colors. >>>>
August 31, Thursday. Two nooses (or lassos) were found hanging from the tree. They were the school colors. Most likely they were lassos from the schools’ rodeo club. [note: Rodeo clubs do not have hangman nooses.]

A black teacher stated in an interview that the kids, white & black, were playing with the nooses/lassos…. Hanging & swinging from them, putting them around their necks, etc. So she took them away from the kids. "

I saw someplace else that they just played a game against the Mustangs!

Nbadan

10-10-2007, 01:52 AM

Wild Cobra

10-10-2007, 04:02 AM

Context is important here WC...you have to remember that Jena has a history of racial tension....if your living in that sort of kettle pot, you certainly don't want to do anything that can be misconstrued....lassos or nooses.....
Yes, but still. Not everyone things of the implications of their actions. Especially high spirited school kids, at a school with a rodeo team! The day before the three presumed nooses, was the opposing teams mascot, a mustang, was caught in a lasso. The next day, after the tem win, three lassos. All lassos were of the school colors. Not regular rope. A lasso is also wrapped differently than a noose.

Everyone knew what it meant. You think otherwise? People just wanted to make something out of it that wasn't there. Without looking back, I don't remember the kids name, but one of them has a mother who is a local civil rights leader. It seems to me she misconstrued the incident with the so called nooses.

That goes for the confederate flag also. It gets denounced for slavery, but that is not what it meant. So what. It enrages some people. That's their social insecurities, and we shouldn't have to cater to other peoples problems. They just need to get over it, and not assume everything is racist. When they do, I say that makes then the one who is prejudiced. When political correctness tries to subvert free speech of an action not meant to be one of hate, we know PC is wrong.

ChumpDumper

10-10-2007, 04:04 AM

Who hangs lassos from trees?

ChumpDumper

10-10-2007, 04:07 AM

That goes for the confederate flag also. It gets denounced for slavery, but that is not what it meant. So what. It enrages some people. That's their social insecurities, and we shouldn't have to cater to other peoples problems. They just need to get over it, and not assume everything is racist. When they do, I say that makes then the one who is prejudiced.Swastikas are innocent Sanskrit symbols of well-being and anyone who says different is needs to get over it, right?

Wild Cobra

10-10-2007, 04:58 AM

Swastikas are innocent Sanskrit symbols of well-being and anyone who says different is needs to get over it, right?
A swastika used by the Germans was specific in color and directional orientation, whereas the swastikas it came from in the Hindu traditions were either right handed or left handed, often had other symbols in the areas within, and generally of other colors. Comparing the swastika with the confederate flag is like comparing squares and rectangles. A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is rarely a square.

There are only a limited number of confederate flag designs as with the German swastika. The Hindus had endless designs for their swastika as it is a pattern. Not a symbol. There was often text written in the four sections also. I should have also specified the battle flag rather than the confederate flag. That is what I meant anyway.

In some ways you are right. The swastika became a symbol of Germany which was of oppression. The battle flag was used by states that practiced oppression.

Many people still see the battle flag as a symbol of states rights, and of history. It is still part of the Mississippi flag as well.

The swastika was the symbol of an evil empire. The confederate flag was not. The people who flew the confederate flag in days past and today are not racists just because they fly it. I have never heard of someone using the specific German swastika in any use other than in Nazism. Have you?

If you are to apply the confederate flag to racism, then you must apply all symbols of the period and area as such also. Why isn't that done? My thought is that someone just picked it as a symbol to cry about.

Besides, the confederate flag is a sweet and simple piece of artwork!

Oh I almost forgot. It is a universal symbol for rebels. The south rebelled against the north! I'm pretty sure most people who appreciate it do so for their rebellious nature. Not because the south wanted to keep slavery. Myself, I can be rebellious, and I always liked the Battle Flag.

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/rebelflag.gif

xrayzebra

10-10-2007, 10:02 AM

Interesting about the Confederate flag. The one used by Texas
was the one pictured. Also by six flags over Texas theme park.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z273/xrayzebra/tx_flag5.gif

A little history on how the "battle" flag came into being.

The first national flag, the Stars and Bars, is the flag most commonly used in the Six Flags of Texas today. It was adopted by the provisional government, and first raised in Montgomery, Alabama on March 4, 1861. As adopted, the Stars and Bars has a blue field with a circle of seven stars, and three horizontal stripes -- red, white and red. It was originally intended that stars would be added as states joined the Confederacy, but the version with just seven stars remained common in Texas, which was the seventh state to join the Confederacy. Texans sometimes modified this flag design by arranging six stars in a circle, with a seventh star in the middle of the circle. This version can been seen in the drawing of the reverse of the state seal on the Secretary of State's Web site.

This flag was used as the Confederate flag until May 1, 1863. However, the strong resemblance between the Stars and Bars and the United States flag created confusion on the battlefield, so a variety of battle flags were substituted. The most famous of these battle flags is the one originally used by the Army of Northern Virginia. It was a square with a red ground, marked with a blue saltire bordered with white and with a white five-pointed star for each of the Confederate states. A rectangular version of this flag was used as the naval jack.

Although Confederate troops used a number of other battle flags, this flag was one of most popular and widely used. According to the Handbook of Texas Online article on Flags of Texas, in 1906, the United Confederate Veterans designated the battle flag of the army of Northern Virginia the flag for use by veterans organizations. Because of its popularity and wide recognition, this flag was sometimes used in Six Flags displays. However, in 1936 the Texas Centennial Exposition opted to use the Star and Bars and the use of the battle flag as one of the Six Flags has declined.

The battle flag design was incorporated into both the second and third national flags of the Confederacy. The second flag, know as the Stainless Banner, flew from May 1, 1863 until March 4, 1865 and was a white banner with the battle flag in the upper corner near the pole. In March of 1865, the Stainless Banner was modified by the addition of a vertical red stripe. Neither later flag is commonly used in Six Flags displays.http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z273/xrayzebra/tx_flag5.gif

Extra Stout

10-10-2007, 11:01 AM

Yes, but still. Not everyone things of the implications of their actions. Especially high spirited school kids, at a school with a rodeo team! The day before the three presumed nooses, was the opposing teams mascot, a mustang, was caught in a lasso. The next day, after the tem win, three lassos. All lassos were of the school colors. Not regular rope. A lasso is also wrapped differently than a noose.
I am assuming that you are a relatively educated person, and are not so stupid as to fall for such a lame rationalization of the events.

It is interesting to see how the oral tradition among the racists in Jena for this excuse has spread. First the opposing team was the "Cowboys" and the nooses represented hanging rustlers. Then somebody noticed that Jena did not in fact play a team called the Cowboys, but rather the Mustangs, so the nooses became "lassoes." And, now, there's a nifty new innovation where a mustang is caught in a lasso and the three "lassoes" on the tree are in school colors.

It is propaganda BS which only caters to people who will dismiss the obvious in order to fit the narrative which they would like to believe, which in your case apparently is that there is no such thing as racism, and that any purported case of racism is just black people with an attitude problem.

Nooses hanging from a tree has a long-standing meaning in the Deep South, and it is not "school spirit."

That goes for the confederate flag also. It gets denounced for slavery, but that is not what it meant.
So what did it mean, genius? State's rights, in some high-falootin', eye-dee-yall-istic sense, rather than specifically the "right" of states to keep slavery legal if they so choose? Then why did the Battle Flag in its current form enjoy a renaissance during the Civil Rights Movement? Exactly which "state's right" were them Southern boys advocatin' for, other than the "right" to keep Jim Crow on the books? Exactly who many times do you have to bend your mind to escape a motivation that should be plainly obvious to the most casual observer?

Or what of the other so-called justification, "Heritage, not Hate?" Whose heritage, exactly, other than that of southern whites? Are they any blacks, Hispanics, Asians, Native Americans, Greeks, Italians, etc. who identify with that flag? Are you happy when Mexican-Americans, citizens of this country, fly the Mexican flag to represent their "heritage?" Would you support a move to get the Tricolores incorporated into the flags of those states which once were part of Mexico? Since when is nationalist ethnic separatism part of the fabric of American ideals? So, what, "multiculturalism" is bad when it is dark-skinned people calling attention to their differences, but it's just wonderful for Anglo-Celtic southerners to do it? And why exactly are southern whites so damn proud of their ancestors' being traitors to America in the first place? Is this some sort of defense mechanism where they know deep down that their culture and heritage is putrid garbage, a stain upon America's history, a legacy of undemocratic aristocratic classism bordering upon feudalism which contradicts the founding ideals of the United States of America -- whose dissemination into modern "conservatism" corrupts our body politic just as much as any other corrosive element does, and that their ancestors fought and died for a worthless cause, indeed for nothing if not the perseverance of evil, but rather than dealing with that, they pretend as though it were something noble, something to be proud of?

And what the hell is wrong with you that up in Oregon you choose to identify with them? Do you hate America? Do you wish the Confederacy had won? Are you prone to rebel against authority for unjust and self-serving causes?

xrayzebra

10-10-2007, 11:17 AM

[QUOTE]And why exactly are southern whites so damn proud of their ancestors' being traitors to America in the first place? [/UNQUOTE]

Traitors in what sense. Much of the fight was about States Rights.
Yes, slavery was part of it. Many were not
so happy about Lincoln (The Federal Government) telling them
could not leave the union. As a matter of fact: "All slaves in the Confederacy were freed by the Emancipation Proclamation, which stipulated that slaves in Confederate-held areas, but not in border states or in Washington, D.C., were free. Slaves in the border states and Union-controlled parts of the South were freed by state action or by the Thirteenth Amendment, although slavery effectively ended in the U.S. in the spring of 1865." (Taken from
Wikipedia American Civil War. So I hardly find the Southerners
as traitors. They had a valid reason for going to war, in their
estimation.

Extra Stout

10-10-2007, 11:29 AM

So I hardly find the Southerners
as traitors. They had a valid reason for going to war, in their
estimation.
If treachery can be excused by having a "valid reason" in one's own estimation, then there is no such thing as treason.

Benedict Arnold had a "valid reason" for flipping over to the Tory side, in his own estimation.

Oh, Gee!!

10-10-2007, 11:31 AM

I am assuming that you are a relatively educated person, and are not so stupid as to fall for such a lame rationalization of the events.

flawed premise

TLWisfoine

10-10-2007, 11:39 AM

Extra Stout

10-10-2007, 11:42 AM

This just further proves that one man's enemy/traitor/terrorist, is another man's freedom fighter.

I'm going to say what many people on your side of the political spectrum always say to "liberals." If they didn't like America and/or its policies, then they could of just simply left for another country, nobody was forcing them to stay.
Some of them actually did go to Brazil, because of its grand commitment to states' rights... oops, actually it was because slavery was still legal there, until 1883.

There are still some of their descendants down there. They have a festival every year where they burn Abraham Lincoln in effigy.

Wild Cobra

10-10-2007, 11:57 AM

I am assuming that you are a relatively educated person, and are not so stupid as to fall for such a lame rationalization of the events.

Call it rationalizing if you will. I originally floated the idea that they were lariats rather than nooses for a few reasons. First of all, I read over 30 articles on the subject and noted things not covered in the mainstream. Second of all, the later events were said to have noting to do with the incident of the nooses. Now take into account those who got in trouble for the nooses were on the rodeo team. Initial calls for expulsion were reduced to suspension. Then the fact that we have a civil rights member calling for action to be taken, and then states attorney general said no crime was committed, even though it would be a definite hate crime in Louisiana if they were nooses! With the demand for justice, and none taken, either the Louisiana governor kept the race crime charges from happening, or... they were lassos!

It's not a lame rationalization! It makes perfect sense. If, with all the public attention now, they were nooses... Charges would be expected , right? Not past the statute of limitations now, is it?

Nooses hanging from a tree has a long-standing meaning in the Deep South, and it is not "school spirit."

The interpretation of some people does not constitute fact.

So what did it mean, genius? State's rights, in some high-falootin', eye-dee-yall-istic sense, rather than specifically the "right" of states to keep slavery legal if they so choose?
As horrifying as we view it today, slavery was not illegal, and even acknowledged in our constitution.

Then why did the Battle Flag in its current form enjoy a renaissance during the Civil Rights Movement? Exactly which "state's right" were them Southern boys advocatin' for, other than the "right" to keep Jim Crow on the books? Exactly who many times do you have to bend your mind to escape a motivation that should be plainly obvious to the most casual observer?

I don't have those answers, especially as you are twisting what I mean. I am not trying to place right or wrong on the issue of slavery. I am only defending the constitutional rights of the south, as acknowledged by the tenth amendment:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved for the States respectively, or to the people.

This amendment was brought into life, revived from the Articles of Confederation:

Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.

The powers of the federal government were violating these agreements with the states, and the southern states rebelled. Those in the south are proud of their legal and proper rebellion.

And why exactly are southern whites so damn proud of their ancestors' being traitors to America in the first place?

Actually, it is the north that were traitors to the constitution and the south were the true patriots. Yes, slavery was an evil doing. Still, it was legal.

And what the hell is wrong with you that up in Oregon you choose to identify with them? Do you hate America?
How can you believe such a thing? I used to think the south was wrong, until I learned more of the facts.

Do you wish the Confederacy had won?
Yes... I wish the south won! Perhaps we would still have states rights, and a federal government less than 1/10th the size of what it is today. I am sick and tired of the degree of power congress exercises upon us. That power was never meant to be, and why we had a revolutionary war.

Are you prone to rebel against authority for unjust and self-serving causes?

I just love how people jump into conclusions and think they know everything. Any idea how idiotic you are in my eyes?

I do rebel at times, but for selfless reasons. It is the liberals who are selfish. The Me, Me, Me attitude. What can the government do for them...

TLWisfoine

10-10-2007, 12:06 PM

A swastika used by the Germans was specific in color and directional orientation, whereas the swastikas it came from in the Hindu traditions were either right handed or left handed, often had other symbols in the areas within, and generally of other colors. Comparing the swastika with the confederate flag is like comparing squares and rectangles. A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is rarely a square.

There are only a limited number of confederate flag designs as with the German swastika. The Hindus had endless designs for their swastika as it is a pattern. Not a symbol. There was often text written in the four sections also. I should have also specified the battle flag rather than the confederate flag. That is what I meant anyway.

In some ways you are right. The swastika became a symbol of Germany which was of oppression. The battle flag was used by states that practiced oppression.

Many people still see the battle flag as a symbol of states rights, and of history. It is still part of the Mississippi flag as well.

The swastika was the symbol of an evil empire. The confederate flag was not. The people who flew the confederate flag in days past and today are not racists just because they fly it. I have never heard of someone using the specific German swastika in any use other than in Nazism. Have you?

If you are to apply the confederate flag to racism, then you must apply all symbols of the period and area as such also. Why isn't that done? My thought is that someone just picked it as a symbol to cry about.

Besides, the confederate flag is a sweet and simple piece of artwork!

Oh I almost forgot. It is a universal symbol for rebels. The south rebelled against the north! I'm pretty sure most people who appreciate it do so for their rebellious nature. Not because the south wanted to keep slavery. Myself, I can be rebellious, and I always liked the Battle Flag.

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/rebelflag.gif

The good ole' it's part of our culture, most people didn't even own slaves excuse. I'm sure that most of the people in the German army during the days of Hitler didn't participate in the genocide against the Jews, they were only fighting for the Fatherland. So why can't they just where their swastika symbol in order to celebrate their heritage? Oh yeah, about the Confederate flag not being a racist symbol, the people who paraded the Confederate flag during the Civil Rights Movement would disagree with you.

And since were throwing around symbols

http://www.4strugglemag.org/archives/images/panther%20power.jpg

DarkReign

10-10-2007, 12:07 PM

The confederate flag is the symbol of slavery. The Civil War was not fought about state's rights, it was fought on the spread of slavery to the territories (pre-statehood).

Much of the north had already relaxed or banned slavery (they werent agricultural). the South, being rural, was completely dependant on the slave trade and its economic impact. They already didnt like that Congress was based on population (which was much, much more disparate in those days than now between New England and Dixie) and with the election of a Pennsylvania Republican who was outwardly hostile to the expansion of slavery to the territories the Jim Crowes knew the end was nigh.

That flag, that confederate flag symbolizes the South's need for human resource in the form of bonded slavery. Its history, its relevant, it should not be forgotten, but its slavery and its sick. The fact that a two-bit state like redneck, southern baptist state like Mississippi still waves it with reverence tells you everything you need to know about where racism is in this country. Alive and well.

I dont bleed for the boys accused of this beating. You take the law in your hands, the law deals with you. But the trial should be fair. This was not.

Construing the facts as lassos instead of nooses speaks volumes about your preconceptions on the matter. You either dont care "them ######s" didnt get a fair and balanced trial/sentence, or your self delusional as to the moral superiority of your fellow American. Newsflash; we're a pretty ugly, maligned, delusional and embattled bunch. Nothing escapes my imagination as to how needy Americans are to think we know best in all things.

Humanity is desperately flawed and America is no exception.

Extra Stout

10-10-2007, 12:24 PM

The powers of the federal government were violating these agreements with the states, and the southern states rebelled. Those in the south are proud of their legal and proper rebellion.

Yes... I wish the south won!

I cannot find a person espousing such views as anything but vile. There is no point in debating with you further. We have no common ground. If you are in any representative of the conservative movement today, then may it be utterly crushed and reduced to ashes!

DarkReign

10-10-2007, 12:32 PM

Say what?! I havent read the thread entirely, but are those quotes accurate?!

I am all for state's rights, no question. But when the subject matter at issue are the lives of human beings being either a) human or b) property, the Fed has every right to impose its will. Civil Rights should be handled nationally, not on the state level.

And you wishing they won?! Why? For the political angle? Because the Fed stepped on the South? The South was wrong. Dead wrong. Morally wrong. Ethically wrong. Wrong.

They say, carefully choose your hill to die on...the south chose slavery and died. Good fucking-riddance.

Wild Cobra

10-10-2007, 12:34 PM

The confederate flag is the symbol of slavery. The Civil War was not fought about state's rights, it was fought on the spread of slavery to the territories (pre-statehood).

Well, we definitely disagree here.

Construing the facts as lassos instead of nooses speaks volumes about your preconceptions on the matter.

Show me proof to the contrary. Evidence available shows them as lassos... school colors... members of the rodeo team... etc...

You either dont care "them ######s" didnt get a fair and balanced trial/sentence, or your self delusional as to the moral superiority of your fellow American.

You just fantasizing this as you go? You don't know shit about me. I think I am one of the few people looking at the incident objectively, considering all possibilities. I simple don't see this incident as it was portrayed.

Why is it always, automatically a racist thing? What evidence? Statistics doesn't mean anything. Just because maybe 90% of the time, this would be a racist thing in Louisiana doesn't make it so 100% of the time. This looks like that 10% to me! All the incidents along this story clearly point to the black students as the perpetrators. I see the nooses and racism being used for justification.

Newsflash; we're a pretty ugly, maligned, delusional and embattled bunch. Nothing escapes my imagination as to how needy Americans are to think we know best in all things.

Humanity is desperately flawed and America is no exception.

I am fully aware of the evils we are capable of imposing on others. Give me some credit.

Spurminator

10-10-2007, 12:44 PM

This thread is on par with the "Dan Rather's memo is real" thread.

Lassos? Seriously?

So why weren't black kids allowed to sit under the Lasso Tree?

ChumpDumper

10-10-2007, 12:45 PM

Who hangs lassos from trees?

ChumpDumper

10-10-2007, 12:46 PM

How often am I going to have to change my sig?

Wild Cobra

10-10-2007, 12:51 PM

I cannot find a person espousing such views as anything but vile.

Why? Because I believe in states rights rather than an overbearing federal government?

There is no point in debating with you further. We have no common ground.

You really take what I say wrong. I am opposed to slavery. I am opposed to the northern controlled congress imposing it's will over the rights of the southern states.

If you are in any representative of the conservative movement today, then may it be utterly crushed and reduced to ashes!

I'm sorry you wish to crush states rights. Are you a fascist?

When it comes to slavery, I have the view it would have ended in time anyway. I believe we would have better race relations today if the changes ending slavery in this country came more naturally, rather than through the force of legislation that lead to war.

clambake

10-10-2007, 12:57 PM

When it comes to slavery, I have the view it would have ended in time anyway. I believe we would have better race relations today if the changes ending slavery in this country came more naturally, rather than through the force of legislation that lead to war.

do you and rush share the same pharmacist?

Wild Cobra

10-10-2007, 01:02 PM

do you and rush share the same pharmacist?
Why? You want some?

LOL...

I'll bet you think it's some real good shit!

Extra Stout

10-10-2007, 02:07 PM

I'm sorry you wish to crush states rights. Are you a fascist?

When it comes to slavery, I have the view it would have ended in time anyway. I believe we would have better race relations today if the changes ending slavery in this country came more naturally, rather than through the force of legislation that lead to war.
If you led an uprising to have Oregon secede from the union for whatever reason, I believe it would be my duty as a citizen to shoot you dead if I came upon you.

Wild Cobra

10-10-2007, 02:10 PM

If you led an uprising to have Oregon secede from the union for whatever reason, I believe it would be my duty as a citizen to shoot you dead if I came upon you.
LOL...

Bet you'd love it too!

Extra Stout

10-10-2007, 02:17 PM

LOL...

Bet you'd love it too!
I think war pretty much sucks, actually. But the territorial integrity of the United States is one of those things I am supposed to take seriously.

Wild Cobra

10-10-2007, 02:19 PM

I think war pretty much sucks, actually. But the territorial integrity of the United States is one of those things I am supposed to take seriously.
I agree for the most part. However, when the government is acting in an illegal manner, isn't it the right of the people to correct it if they can?

TLWisfoine

10-10-2007, 02:35 PM

Who hangs lassos from trees?

Great question. Wild Cobra, answer please

Extra Stout

10-10-2007, 02:38 PM

I agree for the most part. However, when the government is acting in an illegal manner, isn't it the right of the people to correct it if they can?
I guess that would depend on whether I agree that it is acting illegally. If I agree, I take my chances and join the rebels. If not, I sign up to slaughter the rebels.

The South had a problem in that demographics dictated that the North could elect a President by itself. Those same demographics meant that the North could control Congress and pass laws, binding upon the nation, by itself without considering what the South thought about them.

So, the South, inferior in population, needed a loosely-confederated United States where the central government had highly restricted power to govern the various states. They needed the old Articles of Confederation back.

Since, unfortunately, that form of government had been obsolete for over 70 years at that point, they took their chances by claiming that they had some unilateral right to secede, which nowhere was found in the Constitution. Their actions could result in nothing but war, and war they got, and war effectively ended their way of life.

That their point of contention was predicated primarily upon maintaining a economic system of human bondage, and that their course of action, if successful, ultimately would have resulted in the splintering of the Union into individual states which would have made easy prey for the sphere of influence of the European powers, eviscerates any hope they could ever have of a moral high ground. Disagreement on this point I take as a matter of patriotism stemming from the core principles of why the nation exists in the first place.

Basically, I don't respect any southern partisan as a legitimate American.

Sometimes differences are too great to be worked out within the existing political framework, and sides must take up arms. If you rebel, you take your chances. If looking back on history, you side with the Confederate rebels, then you reject the Union.

Wild Cobra

10-10-2007, 02:39 PM

Great question. Wild Cobra, answer please
I'm not into their heads. Just pointing out that there are certain facts that others are convienently ignoring.

Extra Stout

10-10-2007, 02:53 PM

Now that abortion has been legalized, I guess I should believe we would have better religious/secular relations if the changes ending abortion in this country came more naturally, rather than through the force of legislation or the courts.

Wild Cobra

10-10-2007, 03:03 PM

I guess that would depend on whether I agree that it is acting illegally. If I agree, I take my chances and join the rebels. If not, I sign up to slaughter the rebels.

A situation none of us really want now, is it?

The South had a problem in that demographics dictated that the North could elect a President by itself. Those same demographics meant that the North could control Congress and pass laws, binding upon the nation, by itself without considering what the South thought about them.

Agreed.

So, the South, inferior in population, needed a loosely-confederated United States where the central government had highly restricted power to govern the various states. They needed the old Articles of Confederation back.

They didn't need those articles in my opinion. The tenth amendment already spelled out states right to a satisfactory degree. The northern controlled states clearly violated this by overstepping their bounds. The federal government is constitutionally restricted. Through legal trickery, we have lost what it is meant to be, and the south losing the civil was the first major blow to states rights.

Since, unfortunately, that form of government had been obsolete for over 70 years at that point, they took their chances by claiming that they had some unilateral right to secede, which nowhere was found in the Constitution. Their actions could result in nothing but war, and war they got, and war effectively ended their way of life.

I don't completely agree with you. What makes it such that there must be a constitutional provision to succeed? Both sides acted poorly. Rather than trying to come to terms with each other, the North used blockades of trade. The south made the first mistake of attacking the fort. Was it fort Sumter? (spelling?)

That their point of contention was predicated primarily upon maintaining a economic system of human bondage, and that their course of action, if successful, ultimately would have resulted in the splintering of the Union into individual states which would have made easy prey for the sphere of influence of the European powers, eviscerates any hope they could ever have of a moral high ground. Disagreement on this point I take as a matter of patriotism stemming from the core principles of why the nation exists in the first place.

Yes, and as wrong as we view slavery today, it was legal and their states right. This was being violated. And yes, I agree the slavery is wrong. It was a necessary evil in the beginning to keep slavery legal in order to form the constitution in the first place! The northern states were reneging on a contract! They were using means of political force ideology rather than allowing for common ground over time.

Basically, I don't respect any southern partisan as a legitimate American.

Southern partisan? You mean southern slave owner?

We all have our views of who is and is not a patriot, or legitimate American. If it were up to me, those espousing socialism would considered illegitimate Americans.

Sometimes differences are too great to be worked out within the existing political framework, and sides must take up arms. If you rebel, you take your chances. If looking back on history, you side with the Confederate rebels, then you reject the Union.

Well, I do side with the rebels. Not because of slavery, but because of the tenth amendment!

Don't like the constitution... change it by legal means. Not by violations of the constitution, which the north clearly did!

Nesterofish

10-10-2007, 03:08 PM

wield cobra is toytally biutchslaping that librulk fag extyra stoiut thijs is funnyu too reed

TLWisfoine

10-10-2007, 03:53 PM

Taking out my own patisan views on this, from what I understand Lincoln was no friend of blacks and even though he opposed slavery, he had no intention of ending it in the South and it was only when the South rebelled that Lincoln signed the 13th ammendment to end slavery in order to gain a moral high ground against the South in the eyes rest of the world. If this is true, then maybe the war wasn't based on slavery in the beginning, but I could be wrong. Also if this is true and it was about state rights and protecting themselves from an overbearing government, then specifically what rights were being violated by the government. History buffs help me out here.

Oh, Gee!!

10-10-2007, 03:53 PM

don't you see ES? WC would fight for the south because he loves the 10th amendment soooo much. It's not that he likes slavery per se, it's an issue of federalism.

Spurminator

10-10-2007, 03:55 PM

I may not agree with you buying and selling people like cattle based on skin color, but I'll fight to the death for your right to do so.

TLWisfoine

10-10-2007, 03:55 PM

A situation none of us really want now, is it?

Agreed.

They didn't need those articles in my opinion. The tenth amendment already spelled out states right to a satisfactory degree. The northern controlled states clearly violated this by overstepping their bounds. The federal government is constitutionally restricted. Through legal trickery, we have lost what it is meant to be, and the south losing the civil was the first major blow to states rights.

I don't completely agree with you. What makes it such that there must be a constitutional provision to succeed? Both sides acted poorly. Rather than trying to come to terms with each other, the North used blockades of trade. The south made the first mistake of attacking the fort. Was it fort Sumter? (spelling?)

Yes, and as wrong as we view slavery today, it was legal and their states right. This was being violated. And yes, I agree the slavery is wrong. It was a necessary evil in the beginning to keep slavery legal in order to form the constitution in the first place! The northern states were reneging on a contract! They were using means of political force ideology rather than allowing for common ground over time.

Southern partisan? You mean southern slave owner?

We all have our views of who is and is not a patriot, or legitimate American. If it were up to me, those espousing socialism would considered illegitimate Americans.

Well, I do side with the rebels. Not because of slavery, but because of the tenth amendment!

Don't like the constitution... change it by legal means. Not by violations of the constitution, which the north clearly did!

So from what I'm getting here is that the South was fighting for their "state's right" to continue slavery, and you support that?

Oh, Gee!!

10-10-2007, 03:57 PM

So from what I'm getting here is that the South was fighting for their "state's right" to continue slavery, and you support that?

yes, but he doesn't personally own slaves (nor would he if given the chance...wink, wink).

ChumpDumper

10-10-2007, 03:58 PM

He wouldn't own other human beings, but he would fight to the death to protect the right of Americans to own other human beings.

TLWisfoine

10-10-2007, 04:05 PM

yes, but he doesn't personally own slaves (nor would he if given the chance...wink, wink).

But didn't he say that the war wasn't about slavery, but it was about the South "state's right" to continue slavery? :dramaquee this is getting confusing.

Oh, Gee!!

10-10-2007, 04:32 PM

I think the balancing test WC employs re: the 10th Amendment is whether any act/law/practice done by the individual states is so heinous as to outweigh the totally rad awesomeness of the 10th. WC obviously thinks the 10th Amendment’s totally rad awesomeness outweighs the negative aspects of slavery.

DarkReign

10-10-2007, 06:30 PM

But didn't he say that the war wasn't about slavery, but it was about the South "state's right" to continue slavery? :dramaquee this is getting confusing.

It gets confusing because state's rights were an issue of the civil war.

But the "state right" being referred to was slavery and the spread of it. You were correct in that Lincoln had no intention of abolishing slavery outright, but he was steadfast in that slavery "stayed where it laid"....particularly in the rural south.

The country as a whole was busy expanding west and taking their law with them, so to speak. So as southern land owners expanded west, they brought slaves with them to work their new fields. This expanding land was not American soil, per say. It was American territory. Those Midwestern territories werent tallied in Congressional electoral representation...basically, they werent states yet.

But Lincoln was set against slavery being spread further west. He knew if he isolated where slavery was lawful that it would die its own death. Needless to say the Southern states were none too happy when told that slavery wasnt allowed in the new territory. So the state and federal government came to verbal (and physical) blows about it. They hashed out a slipshod agreement called the Missouri Compromise among other pieces of legislation that headed off the inevitable conflict that was to ensue.

Long story short, the South had good legal arguments about the role of the Federal government and its ability to squash state's rights as it sees fit. The problem with their argument was that it involved the bondage of human beings as property.

Different time then, it seems foreign to discuss the prospect of a legal battle over human slaves but you must remember, slaves were around for longer than anyone had been alive. Long before then as well. So the "change in wind" that the north was having was acutely unique in historical perspective.

Either way, everyone knows who won the war. Lincoln, who in his "House Divided" speech made clear his intentions to only restrict slavery from spreading outside where it already was, had the unfortunate obligation to militarily engage his own countrymen. As an aside, since the time for talk was dead, Lincoln decided the time for slavery was as well in totality once the South seceded and took arms against the Union. He was the villain and the hero at the same time, which makes him a dynamic figure in our history. Im sure he never intended the Emancipation Proclamation to be the kick start to Civil War, and if in retrospect he had to do it again, he probably wouldnt have decreed the document. But he did, they seceded, bloody war, North wins, slavery abolished, Southern economy in tatters.

One could argue slavery didnt end with the war, it just changed names being called "Indentured Servants", but thats another matter.

Extra Stout

10-10-2007, 06:32 PM

Lincoln didn't promulgate the EP until 1863; the CW began in '61.

Nbadan

10-10-2007, 07:50 PM

Another lasso has been found..

From Sarah B. Boxer
CNN

NEW YORK (CNN) -- A noose was discovered this week on the office door of an African-American professor at Columbia University, school officials and the New York Police Department said. The noose was found in a building at Columbia's Teachers College, said Joe Levine, executive director for external affairs at Teachers College. The noose apparently was placed on the 44-year-old professor's office door sometime before 9 a.m. ET Tuesday, Levine said.

Security cameras cover the entrance to the building, but there are none in the hallway where the noose was discovered, he added. The building, which is open 24 hours a day, is accessible only to those with a Teachers College ID card or proof that they are affiliated with someone within the school, Levine said

The New York Police Department's Hate Crime Task Force is investigating.

Reacting to the news, more than 150 undergraduates attended a meeting Tuesday night on campus, and more than 120 Teachers College students expressed outrage at a gathering in their dining hall as well, according to the student-run newspaper Columbia Spectator....

CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/10/columbia.noose/index.html)

TLWisfoine

10-10-2007, 09:32 PM

It gets confusing because state's rights were an issue of the civil war.

But the "state right" being referred to was slavery and the spread of it. You were correct in that Lincoln had no intention of abolishing slavery outright, but he was steadfast in that slavery "stayed where it laid"....particularly in the rural south.

The country as a whole was busy expanding west and taking their law with them, so to speak. So as southern land owners expanded west, they brought slaves with them to work their new fields. This expanding land was not American soil, per say. It was American territory. Those Midwestern territories werent tallied in Congressional electoral representation...basically, they werent states yet.

But Lincoln was set against slavery being spread further west. He knew if he isolated where slavery was lawful that it would die its own death. Needless to say the Southern states were none too happy when told that slavery wasnt allowed in the new territory. So the state and federal government came to verbal (and physical) blows about it. They hashed out a slipshod agreement called the Missouri Compromise among other pieces of legislation that headed off the inevitable conflict that was to ensue.

Long story short, the South had good legal arguments about the role of the Federal government and its ability to squash state's rights as it sees fit. The problem with their argument was that it involved the bondage of human beings as property.

Different time then, it seems foreign to discuss the prospect of a legal battle over human slaves but you must remember, slaves were around for longer than anyone had been alive. Long before then as well. So the "change in wind" that the north was having was acutely unique in historical perspective.

Either way, everyone knows who won the war. Lincoln, who in his "House Divided" speech made clear his intentions to only restrict slavery from spreading outside where it already was, had the unfortunate obligation to militarily engage his own countrymen. As an aside, since the time for talk was dead, Lincoln decided the time for slavery was as well in totality once the South seceded and took arms against the Union. He was the villain and the hero at the same time, which makes him a dynamic figure in our history. Im sure he never intended the Emancipation Proclamation to be the kick start to Civil War, and if in retrospect he had to do it again, he probably wouldnt have decreed the document. But he did, they seceded, bloody war, North wins, slavery abolished, Southern economy in tatters.

One could argue slavery didnt end with the war, it just changed names being called "Indentured Servants", but thats another matter.

Thanks!!!

TLWisfoine

10-10-2007, 09:33 PM

He wouldn't own other human beings, but he would fight to the death to protect the right of Americans to own other human beings.

He should consider working for the ACLU!!!

ChumpDumper

10-10-2007, 10:31 PM

Wild Cobra

10-11-2007, 08:04 AM

So from what I'm getting here is that the South was fighting for their "state's right" to continue slavery, and you support that?
I do not agree with slavery. I agree it was their states right to have it. Let's make sure you don't twist my words to say I support slavery.

DarkReign

10-11-2007, 08:24 AM

Lincoln didn't promulgate the EP until 1863; the CW began in '61.

Damnit, youre right. Nice catch. Just kinda spewed it from memory, shoulda checked that out. Thanks.

Extra Stout

10-11-2007, 08:46 AM

I do not agree with slavery. I agree it was their states right to have it. Let's make sure you don't twist my words to say I support slavery.
Wild Cobra: pro-choice on human chattel slavery.

101A

10-11-2007, 08:57 AM

Another lasso has been found..

[B]From Sarah B. Boxer
CNN

CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/10/columbia.noose/index.html)

What did that professor do to so piss off the local Klan at Columbia?

Sit under the wrong tree?

Oh, Gee!!

10-11-2007, 09:01 AM

I do not agree with slavery. I agree it was their states right to have it. Let's make sure you don't twist my words to say I support slavery.

so it's a state's right to violate an individual's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Or, maybe the slaves weren't individuals?

xrayzebra

10-11-2007, 09:05 AM

so it's a state's right to violate an individual's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Or, maybe the slaves weren't individuals?

OG, what happened then compared to what happens in
today's world are entirely two different things. And you
know it.

Slavery was ended. No way does anyone in the United
States want it to come back. You want to get on some
other peoples case about slavery look to the Middle East
and Africa. It still exist in those countries.

Oh, Gee!!

10-11-2007, 09:10 AM

OG, what happened then compared to what happens in
today's world are entirely two different things. And you
know it.

but WC is around today, not the 1800's.

Oh, Gee!!

10-11-2007, 09:12 AM

Slavery was ended. No way does anyone in the United
States want it to come back.

WC wouldn't oppose it however.

You want to get on some other peoples case about slavery look to the Middle East and Africa. It still exist in those countries.

WC approves of their right to continue the practice.

xrayzebra

10-11-2007, 09:29 AM

OG, get serious once in a while. What happened in Jena is so
confused no one except maybe the school officials knows what
really happened. The courts are attempting to right a wrong.

I am no so damn old that I cant remember how kids do things.
In days gone past the adults would have kicked a little butt
themselves and that would have been the end of it. But in
todays world the Liberals have to bring the court system into
everything. Never mind, I just get a bit peeved when
crap happens that never should happen.

101A

10-11-2007, 09:41 AM

A kid got thrown in jail for reacting to a hate crime, while the perpetrators of said hate crime got off scot-free

Hey, I've got an idea...let's start this thread ALL over again!

ElP got us going, now I'll fire back:

The incidents were separated by months, and there is no link between them.

xrayzebra

10-11-2007, 09:43 AM

A kid got thrown in jail for reacting to a hate crime, while the perpetrators of said hate crime got off scot-free

There you go. A hate crime, my foot! And no one got
off scott free. If the truth were known it was more than
likely young toughs, some white, some black and
they had to prove something to everyone. Anyhow,
there is no such thing as a hate crime in my books. There
is crime and there is hate. Two different things. And
no one will every stop either.

Wild Cobra

10-11-2007, 09:53 AM

Wild Cobra: pro-choice on human chattel slavery.
On the contrary. I am pro life and anti-slave. However, I also beliieve in following the law of the land.

Abortion is legal as appauling as I see it.

Slavery was legal as appauling as it was.

Both are actulally issues of states rights rather than the rights of the federal government.

101A

10-11-2007, 09:53 AM

There you go. A hate crime, my foot! And no one got
off scott free. If the truth were known it was more than
likely young toughs, some white, some black and
they had to prove something to everyone. Anyhow,
there is no such thing as a hate crime in my books. There
is crime and there is hate. Two different things. And
no one will every stop either.

EXACTLY,

See, there was this guy banging my wife, but he was white, right? So, I go to his house, tie him up, cut off his dick, cook it and make him eat it. Then I covered him with honey, and put him out in the heat RIGHT on top of a fire ant mound. His old lady came home the next day, and the son of a bitch was still alive!

He finally died in the hospital a few days later.

Since he was white, I didn't hate him or nothin'.

Later, this black guy cut me off in traffic, so I flipped him off.

THAT was hate! :bang

Oh, Gee!!

10-11-2007, 09:55 AM

you should be in prison

Wild Cobra

10-11-2007, 09:56 AM

so it's a state's right to violate an individual's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Or, maybe the slaves weren't individuals?
I see you forget the constitution. They are not treated as equals. Slavery is acknowledged in the constitution along with indentured servitude!

Oh, Gee!!

10-11-2007, 09:58 AM

I see you forget the constitution. They are not treated as equals. Slavery is acknowledged in the constitution along with indentured servitude!

and it was wrong on that issue

Wild Cobra

10-11-2007, 10:00 AM

WC wouldn't oppose it however.

WC approves of their right to continue the practice.
It's a very stupid practice to state other peoples unknown thoughts as fact. It shows fully you level of ignorance.

I never approved of slavery. I wouldn't then with my current upbringing if I lived in the past. I am against many laws, that doesn't mean I break them.

Wild Cobra

10-11-2007, 10:06 AM

The kid was jailed for "assault with a deadly weapon" if I recall correctly, the deadly weapon referring to his SHOES.
It looks like you missed allot of the thread. The assault was reduced. The key fact to remember is that the assault was a sneak attack from behind, a cowards attack. The kid went down, knocked unconscious, and the kids continued to beat a defenseless victim!

If you approve of that, then I pity your soul.

As for the hate crime. Why did the Attorney General from the State say there was none? That is a key reason why I call it child's play with lassos rather than a noose, because there would be no wiggle room if it was a noose!

You think a liberal democrat controlled governor wouldn't charge for a hate crime if she could?

Wild Cobra

10-11-2007, 10:10 AM

and it was wrong on that issue
No shit Sherlock!

State the obvious.

I never said slavery was right or moral. Only that it was legal!

101A

10-11-2007, 10:26 AM

you should be in prison

Bullshit.

The guy I killed once jacked a liquor store, and they let him go with time served.

clambake

10-11-2007, 10:34 AM

Bullshit.

The guy I killed once jacked a liquor store, and they let him go with time served.
next time, control yourself. we need to find out if a pole in the ass is more or less painful than a paper cut.

this guy could have been the perfect specimen. remember, science is progress.

Extra Stout

10-11-2007, 10:36 AM

Extra Stout

10-11-2007, 10:38 AM

I never said slavery was right or moral. Only that it was legal!
So if religious conservatives ever get abortion outlawed nationwide, the blue states have the right to secede, and you will support that on account of their interpretation of the Tenth Amendment.

Wild Cobra

10-11-2007, 10:53 AM

So if religious conservatives ever get abortion outlawed nationwide, the blue states have the right to secede, and you will support that on account of their interpretation of the Tenth Amendment.
I'm sure there are some who want to use the power of the federal government to outlaw abortion. Most of the talk I hear is to just overturn Roe vs. Wade, and let the issue go back to the individual states. There would never be enough votes to outright outlaw abortion at a federal level.

Extra Stout

10-11-2007, 11:01 AM

I'm sure there are some who want to use the power of the federal government to outlaw abortion. Most of the talk I hear is to just overturn Roe vs. Wade, and let the issue go back to the individual states. There would never be enough votes to outright outlaw abortion at a federal level.
So you would not support a nationwide ban on abortion because it would violate the Tenth Amendment.

Wild Cobra

10-11-2007, 11:04 AM

So you would not support a nationwide ban on abortion because it would violate the Tenth Amendment.
Correct.

I am a firm believer in states rights.

Jamtas#2

10-11-2007, 11:14 AM

It's a very stupid practice to state other peoples unknown thoughts as fact. It shows fully you level of ignorance.

I never approved of slavery. I wouldn't then with my current upbringing if I lived in the past. I am against many laws, that doesn't mean I break them.

So would I be far off on your reasoning to think if you had been around in the 1700's you would have opposed the American revolution because as much as you didn't like taxation without representation, it was the law and you wouldn't break it?

Wild Cobra

10-11-2007, 11:36 AM

So would I be far off on your reasoning to think if you had been around in the 1700's you would have opposed the American revolution because as much as you didn't like taxation without representation, it was the law and you wouldn't break it?
That's a good tough question.

I started a new thread for it:

The Revolutionary War (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1999429#post1999429)

Extra Stout

10-11-2007, 02:55 PM

The funny thing about WC's assertion is that at the time of the southern secession, not even the Republicans were looking for an immediate universal abolition of slavery in the various states. Since the Tenth Amendment was in fact taken seriously back then, there was no possibility of doing so nationwide. Abolitionists prior to the Civil War often burned copies of the Constitution because it allowed for the continuation of slavery in states which chose to have it.

But under the existing form of government, if there were to become any imbalance in the number of free states versus slave states, then severe restrictions could be placed on slave commerce between states, crippling the economy of the South. This is why whenever states were added, the South insisted that it be in pairs, one slave, one free. The North dominated the House of Representatives owing to its greater population, so the South needed an evenly divided Senate.

On the face of it, this series of compromises violates the spirit of the Tenth Amendment. Ideally, the settlers themselved should have decided whether their state would be slave or free, right? Well, that's exactly what was decreed in the Kansas-Nebraska Act of 1854. It was expected that Nebraska settlers would vote themselves a free state, while Kansas settlers would vote themselves a slave state.

It didn't work out that way. What happened instead was guerilla warfare in Kansas between pro-slavery and anti-slavery settlers for five years.

Furthermore, the collapse of the Whig Party and the emergence of the abolitionist Republicans, and the election of a Republican President in 1860 without electoral votes from a single slave state, and without Lincoln so much as appearing on the ballot in ten of them, meant the end of the line for the South. Given prevailing events, the Constitution as written could not ensure the viability of slavery as an ongoing institution.

So the southern states decided that they had the "right" to secede from the union. If successful, with control of the Mississippi River via New Orleans, they could dominate the West, not only ensuring the continuation of slavery, but assuming the dominant position on the North American continent.

Of course, Lincoln certainly wasn't going to allow for illegal dissolution of the nation, much less allow a new, hostile power to usurp its own claims in the West and encircle the rump. And that's not even taking into account the likely encroachment of European interests upon the weakened nation.

So, in my view, the South, because political fortunes did not go its way, once the tide started to turn inexorably towards the restriction of slavery via completely legitimate and legal Congressional authority over matters of interstate commerce, on account of the emerging imbalance between slave and free states, took its chances with treason and tried to break away and protect its economic interests militarily. It lost catastrophically.

No state ever had Constitutional authority unilaterally to leave the United States of America. At no time prior to the war did the Northern states violate the Tenth Amendment and externally attempt to abolish slavery in states where it already existed. The Emancipation Proclamation was announced as binding only upon enemy territory which had forsaken the rights it once had in the nation it chose to leave. What the South did was treasonous and illegal, and they deserved every bit of the devastation they got.

And its supporters today carry on the spirit of treason.

clambake

10-11-2007, 02:58 PM

the slavery issue allowed the north to claim the "moral cause"

Extra Stout

10-11-2007, 03:27 PM

In the southern concept of "states' rights," not only did the south assert its right for its states to maintain their own laws, it also asserted the "right" to impose those laws upon the territories.

101A

10-11-2007, 03:52 PM