Subprime Meltdown; "Just The Tip of The Iceberg"

[Nbadan]

If you're wondering why the job report that sparked yesterday's huge market self-off doesn't reflect today's consumer spending habits, you need to look no further than the huge number of subprime loans looking to get reset in 08...


http://blogs.ocregister.com/mortgage/resetbigchart.gif
Calculated Risk: ARM Reset Charts

Next come the huge numbers of evictions...


The fate of the US housing market is increasingly in the hands of an opaque part of the financial system normally associated with moves to evict families from their homes.

Mortgage service companies, which are responsible for calling on Americans to keep up with their loan payments, have assumed a pivotal role in President George W. Bush's market-oriented strategy for dealing with the pending wave of foreclosures in the subprime mortgage sector.

An estimated 6m high-risk subprime loans, worth a total of more than $1,000bn, are outstanding, which will in many cases reset to higher interest rates in the next 18 months, putting more than 2.5m Americans at risk of foreclosure.

"It is sort of like being in New Orleans a month before Hurricane Katrina hit when you know there is a storm coming," said Guy Cecala, of Inside Mortgage Finance.

Economists fear that a wave of evictions of borrowers unable to afford the higher payments will blight neighbourhoods, hit home prices, deepen the worst housing downturn in 16 years, and harm the wider economy.

Financial Times (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5f67d75a-5cdb-11dc-9cc9-0000779fd2ac.html)

Now we really know why personal bankruptcy laws were tightened by credit industry insiders during the reign of the do-nothing congress...

[BradLohaus]

I'll just put this here. With the Ron Paul thread going on I forgot to mention that the dollar index has been below the 80 mark for close to 48 hours now.

http://www.kitco.com/

(scroll all the way down, it's in the Indicators chart on the bottom right.)

I still don't think the doomsday scenario is around the corner just because the dollar fell below 80 for the first time. But if it keeps falling and doesn't rebound back over 80 soon, then this could be real trouble for us. In a related note, the Fed will likely cut the federal funds rate by .25% in a little over a week. Now might be a great time to buy some gold. It's been a good time for a while now.

[Nbadan]

http://www.imgred.com/http://images.salon.com/comics/tomo/2007/09/10/tomo/story.jpg

[boutons_]

The free market at work. The big guys, having made $Bs that are long gone, will now write it off their losses in their taxes, or go bankrupt, and come back somewhere else.

The little guys will get screwed, always. The whole philosophy of capitalism is to screw the other guy more than he is screwing you.

As George Carlin says, "bend the client over and "service" the account" :lol

The lending companies are as complicit in this mess as are the suckered lendees. This isn't simply a case of caveat emptor.

[smeagol]

The whole philosophy of capitalism is to screw the other guy more than he is screwing you.

So what economic philosophy you champion?

Socialism? Even better still, Communism?



As George Carlin says, "bend the client over and "service" the account" :lol


When I want to learn about philosophy, I usually watch Carlin do stand-up :rolleyes



The lending companies are as complicit in this mess as are the suckered lendees.


True, but the people who borrowed the money are the ones who should take the bulk of the blame.

[boutons_]

smegma, you're fucked all your points, so now go fuck yourself.

[smeagol]

smegma, you're fucked all your points, so now go fuck yourself.
Idiot, if you can't answer the simple comments I made, just say so and get on with your pathetic life.

Again, you hate capitalism and live in the US (stupid in many dimensions), what system do you champion?

My comment about Carlin, well not much to add there if you look up to him to tell you how to live your life.

Lastly, the idiots who took ARMs should accept their part of the blame in this whole mess.

Care to add anything aside from you one liner "It is all Dubya's fault!"

[Wild Cobra]

I
Again, you hate capitalism and live in the US (stupid in many dimensions), what system do you champion?

I'll put in $100 bux to help buy boutons a one-way ticket to Cuba, Columbia, Venezuela, or some other place.

Maybe North Korea?

Anyone else chip in?

[Holt's Cat]

As if there is even a "free market" at work. Once the task strays from bolding text, croutons sucks hard.

[Switchman]

People can make more $$ during the bad times than they can during the "good times."

I have no sympathy for these people who got in over their heads.

[xrayzebra]

Idiot, if you can't answer the simple comments I made, just say so and get on with your pathetic life.

Again, you hate capitalism and live in the US (stupid in many dimensions), what system do you champion?

My comment about Carlin, well not much to add there if you look up to him to tell you how to live your life.

Lastly, the idiots who took ARMs should accept their part of the blame in this whole mess.

Care to add anything aside from you one liner "It is all Dubya's fault!"

Hey smeagol, can we send him down to you. Or better
yet work out an exchange program, you and your family
for him and his family. Yeah I know, we would come out
better, but after all they are governments working out
the arrangement. Okay, okay, but it was just a thought! :lol

[smeagol]

I'll put in $100 bux to help buy boutons a one-way ticket to Cuba, Columbia, Venezuela, or some other place.

No such country as Columbia.

It's Colombia, and it is far from being communist.

[smeagol]

Hey smeagol, can we send him down to you.

Believe it or not, the leftists we have down here are much worse than boutons :depressed

[xrayzebra]

Believe it or not, the leftists we have down here are much worse than boutons :depressed

Is that possible? Yeah guess it is, I remember the
communist in Europe in the 50's.

[Wild Cobra]

No such country as Columbia.

It's Colombia, and it is far from being communist.
OK, my bad on the spelling. Isn't there some pretty bad problems there? Am I wrong to understand that it is a country or corruption?

[Nbadan]

People can make more $$ during the bad times than they can during the "good times."

I have no sympathy for these people who got in over their heads.

Nice exhibition of empathy there, but this doesn't just effect 'these people', with all these homes going on the market at once, it drops prices across the board for everyone else too, including you and me. So we could be in for a few years of home price depreciations until we rebuild enough credit worthy borrowers with at least some money in their pockets who can afford to take the risk of buying these soon to be vacated homes....and there will be millions of them....banks will buy back these homes at pennies on the dollars, so you will witnesses some substantial savings if you took my advice a year ago and waited till the hammer dropped on easy-credit to buy a home.....

[Yonivore]

Nice exhibition of empathy there, but this doesn't just effect 'these people', with all these homes going on the market at once, it drops prices across the board for everyone else too, including you and me.
Some would call that a buyer's market.


So we could be in for a few years of home price depreciations until we rebuild enough credit worthy borrowers with at least some money in their pockets who can afford to take the risk of buying these soon to be vacated homes....and there will be millions of them....banks will buy back these homes at pennies on the dollars, so you will witnesses some substantial savings if you took my advice a year ago and waited till the hammer dropped on easy-credit to buy a home.....
So, you do see the upside. People have to live somewhere, whether they're paying for their homes or renting them back from the new owners -- occupancy will remain stable.

[Nbadan]

Some would call that a buyer's market.

Some would call that a down, or depreciating market....

[Yonivore]

Some would call that a down, or depreciating market....
And the rental markets will be up. Woo Hoo.

I have no sympathy for the buyers or the lenders in this fiasco. As some wealthy guy said a few days ago. That's what happens when you lend money to poor people.

[Nbadan]

And the rental markets will be up. Woo Hoo.

I have no sympathy for the buyers or the lenders in this fiasco. As some wealthy guy said a few days ago. That's what happens when you lend money to poor people.

..Yes much better to keep the money amongst those who deserve it...those who God intended...

[Nbadan]

So, you do see the upside. People have to live somewhere, whether they're paying for their homes or renting them back from the new owners -- occupancy will remain stable.

There is never a 'UPSIDE' to reintroducing risk into any market....people have been supporting their own consumption habits by using their homes as banks, primarily because easy credit introduced many new potential buyers into the market and over-inflated home evaluations, well, those days are just about over....

[Yonivore]

There is never a 'UPSIDE' to reintroducing risk into any market....people have been supporting their own consumption habits by using their homes as banks, primarily because easy credit introduced many new potential buyers into the market and over-inflated home evaluations, well, those days are just about over....
Sure there's an upside. Someone is going to be able to capitalize on this and make a freakin' killing.

If we can just keep the government from "bailing" anyone out.

[Yonivore]

..Yes much better to keep the money amongst those who deserve it...those who God intended...
Hey, the proof is in the pudding. I'm not rich but, the man has a point. I guess he could have said, this is what happens when you lend money to irresponsible poor people but, I don't know of any responsible poor person that would have entered into such a dumbass arrangement.

Oh, I forgot...you screwed the pooch on this, didn't you?

[Nbadan]

Sure there's an upside. Someone is going to be able to capitalize on this and make a freakin' killing.

If we can just keep the government from "bailing" anyone out.

See - What's wrong with Globalism 101

[Nbadan]

Hey, the proof is in the pudding. I'm not rich but, the man has a point. I guess he could have said, this is what happens when you lend money to irresponsible poor people but, I don't know of any responsible poor person that would have entered into such a dumbass arrangement.

Oh, I forgot...you screwed the pooch on this, didn't you?

...because multi-nationals never default on loans, right?....

[boutons_]

The lending companies who approved these loans often accepted "stated income" (no documents and/or $0 down, and/or didn't really qualify the "poor suckers" who couldn't really afford the mortgage, esp after the variable rate increases.

The lenders then pocketed the $$$ and sold the mortgages, subprime and un-subprime, as pkg upstream.

Compare the above "we lend to shitty, risky customers. wham bam thank you ma'am" with the current tight-credit situation where to qualify for a mortgage, you will probably have to show 2 years of IRS/W-2 returns, 2 years of bank statements, and all your credit card bills.

The lenders, much more financially sophisticated than the low-end borrowers, knew exactly WTF they were doing, they made 10s of $Bs, and are as complicit in the mortgage crisis as are the borrowers and as are the Repug laissez-faire regulations that permit such shady financial activities. And of course, Greenspan was waving through all this bullshit saying "there is no bubble", just another top public official outright lying.

[smeagol]

Way to dodge the question, boutons.

Capitalism or socialism?

Or better still, capitalism or communism?

[Holt's Cat]

croutons prefers the one that comes with the most text to bold.

[boutons_]

Who said I was against capitalism? The very same people who said I'm liberal or Democrat. bunch of motherfuckers.

[smeagol]

Who said I was against capitalism?

You, dummy:


The whole philosophy of capitalism is to screw the other guy more than he is screwing you.



The very same people who said I'm liberal or Democrat.

What are you, aside from being screwed in the head?

[boutons_]

"The whole philosophy of capitalism is to screw the other guy more than he is screwing you"

That's a statement of fact, not my personal opinion, dumbfuck.

[101A]

"The whole philosophy of capitalism is to screw the other guy more than he is screwing you"

That's a statement of fact, not my personal opinion, dumbfuck.

The philosophy of capitalism is for two entities (individual, corporation) to enter into legal economic transactions that that each agree to, without government interference or coercion.

If it is your contention that the less savy ought not to be allowed to participate in commerce unfettered, so that they don't do something stupid, I think you are going to get resistance from ALL sides of the aisle (except Plato, he's right there with you).

[Holt's Cat]

Show me a company who screws its customers over repeatedly and I'll show you a company protected in some shape or form by government policy.

[smeagol]

"The whole philosophy of capitalism is to screw the other guy more than he is screwing you"

That's a statement of fact, not my personal opinion, dumbfuck.

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

Even if I concede that it is a statement of fact, the mere fact you used it to discribe capitalism shows your disdain for that economic system.

[boutons_]

"Show me a company who screws its customers over repeatedly"

banks, silently tacking on nickel-and-dime charges, month after month.

toy companies fucked over millions of clients (aka repeatedly) by not controlling the quality of toys.

food illnesses sicken and kill 100s of 1000s of people every year because the food companies don't control the quality of their food.

tobacco companies have killed 100s of 1000s of people with their products.

financial companies fuck over clients by insider trading, after-hour-trading, etc, get caught, pay $Bs in fines, the most "respectable", very top banks.

hospitals fuck you over by infecting you with MRSA because they don't control the quality of their staff and their practices.

100K people get killed every year due to medical errors.

A key slogan of the free market is "caveat emptor", aka, buyer should not trust the seller, who is trying to sell you the shittiest product for the most money.

Capitalism is an adversarial system, buyer against seller.

And of course sellers will destroy other sellers to create cartels or monopolies, so they can screw the customer with higher prices for the same or shittier product (Microsoft).

shall I go on or is that enough "repeatedly"?

[smeagol]

So do you or do you not like capitalism?

[smeagol]

Who said I was against capitalism?

You, repeatedly.

[Holt's Cat]

"Show me a company who screws its customers over repeatedly"

banks, silently tacking on nickel-and-dime charges, month after month.


And people don't change banks, of course. And banks don't compete by doing away with fees or simplifying the fees. I guess banks should provide checking services for free, eh?




toy companies fucked over millions of clients (aka repeatedly) by not controlling the quality of toys.

That's stupid.





food illnesses sicken and kill 100s of 1000s of people every year because the food companies don't control the quality of their food.

Link? Certainly any firm that sold food which killed consumers repeatedly wouldn't last long. I can think of two instances recently (Taco Bell, spinach). Hardly evidence of repeated misbehavior.




tobacco companies have killed 100s of 1000s of people with their products.


How many did not realize that smoking was bad for you? That knowledge has been around for a long time. Is someone really screwed over when they willingly consume a product?



financial companies fuck over clients by insider trading, after-hour-trading, etc, get caught, pay $Bs in fines, the most "respectable", very top banks.


To the extent they are not prosecuted for crimes, you can thank your government. And like it or not investors do take their funds away from such managers.




hospitals fuck you over by infecting you with MRSA because they don't control the quality of their staff and their practices.

100K people get killed every year due to medical errors.


If a doc kills a bunch of his patients word gets around.



A key slogan of the free market is "caveat emptor", aka, buyer should not trust the seller, who is trying to sell you the shittiest product for the most money.

Capitalism is an adversarial system, buyer against seller.

And of course sellers will destroy other sellers to create cartels or monopolies, so they can screw the customer with higher prices for the same or shittier product (Microsoft).

shall I go on or is that enough "repeatedly"?

A monopoly doesn't last if its product quality wanes as that opens up the opportunity for others to take business away from it.

[smeagol]

boutons owned

[Nbadan]

Meanwhile, back on topic, Greenspan has gone into full denial mode...

Greenspan Concedes Mortgage Dilemma
Thursday September 13, 1:26 PM EDT


WASHINGTON (AP) — Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan acknowledges he failed to see early on that an explosion of mortgages to people with questionable credit histories could pose a danger to the economy.

This was our FED chairman and he could'nt see how cheap credit could lead to a crisis?

[boutons_]

This sounds like Chicken Little, can anybody refute it?

Recession Time! The Housing Bubble Bursts the Economy

By Dean Baker

t r u t h o u t | Perspective

Tuesday 11 September 2007

The downturn in jobs reported last month by the Labor Department provided evidence of an economic downturn that even the economy's greatest cheerleaders could not ignore. Healthy economies do not shed jobs.

During the core periods of the upturns in the eighties and nineties, there were three months in which the economy lost jobs. In two of these, the loss was attributable to major strikes. (The jobs of striking workers are not counted in the survey.) That leaves a grand total of one month in more than twelve years of recovery in which the economy lost jobs. In other words, the August job loss leaves the economic optimists somewhat less credible than the deniers of global warming.

The backdrop for the August job loss is the collapse of the subprime mortgage market. Millions of low- and moderate-income homeowners are now looking at the resetting of interest rates on adjustable rate mortgages to levels that they cannot afford. While the Fed chairman and other leading economists assured the public that the problems would be restricted to the subprime segment of the housing market, this assertion was always ridiculous on its face.

Subprime mortgages accounted for one-fourth of all mortgages issued in 2006. The equally troubled Alt-A mortgage category accounted for another 15 percent. With segments that account for 40 percent of the mortgage market going into convulsion, there was no way that the housing market as a whole would not be affected. Of course, record supplies of unsold new homes and vacant homes also ensured that there would be substantial downward pressure on house prices.

The excess supply and constriction of mortgage credit is now affecting prices. Prices in the cities that had been the hottest bubble markets, such as San Diego, Las Vegas, Phoenix, and Miami, are declining at double-digit rates. Prices in slightly less bubbly markets, such as New York City, Washington, DC, and Boston, are falling at single-digit rates. These declines are likely to continue and quite possibly accelerate as the turmoil in the mortgage market further constrains demand.

This process will set in motion a downward spiral, as declines in house prices lead to more mortgage defaults. This will both place more foreclosed homes on the market and further constrain mortgage credit as the risk of default rises. The weakness in the housing market will be further reinforced by the weakening of the job market.

The job loss will first show up in the housing-related sectors. More than 50,000 layoffs have already been announced in the mortgage banking industry. This job loss has not shown up yet in the jobs data, since these workers were still employed when the August survey was taken. Construction and real estate will also see sharp declines in employment in the months ahead.

However, the direct impact on the housing sector is just the tip of the iceberg. The housing bubble created more than $7 trillion in housing wealth. Homeowners have used this bubble wealth to support a surge in consumption over the last five years, pushing the saving rate to near zero. They borrowed against their home equity to pay for vacations, new cars, or just to meet necessary expenses. As this bubble wealth disappears, consumption of all forms will be cut back, slowing growth and leading to more job losses.

In addition, declining construction-related fees and property tax revenue will constrict state and local budgets. This will lead to pressure for tax increases, just as the economy is going into a downturn, and to cutbacks in government spending and employment. This will further reinforce the downward spiral.

The growth of the housing bubble made this sort of collapse inevitable, just as the crash of the stock bubble was inevitable. The only question was when the bubble would finally burst and the exact form that the collapse would take.

It was incredibly negligent for the Federal Reserve Board and the Bush administration to allow the housing bubble to grow unchecked, and especially to allow the sort of mass fraud perpetrated against moderate-income homebuyers in the subprime market. At this point, there is probably no way to avoid a recession. If those making economic policy show no better judgment going forward than they have in the recent past, it is likely to be a long and painful recession.

===================

Is it really going to be that bad?

Who, what can stop it?

If the economy really tanks going into Nov 08, no Repug candidate will have a chance.

[Holt's Cat]

It was incredibly negligent for the Federal Reserve Board


In control of your money supply.



and the Bush administration to allow the housing bubble to grow unchecked, and especially to allow the sort of mass fraud perpetrated against moderate-income homebuyers in the subprime market.


So is there no personal responsibility expected in this country? Is everyone a victim? How is this unlike the individual who maxes out their credit cards and struggles to make the minimum payments, let alone actually make any headway on the actual debt?

[boutons_]

"no personal responsibility expected in this country?"

who said that?
The lending companies were doing mortgages for people whom they knew were very probably getting in over their heads.

Both sides screwed up, the lenders are the much more sophisticated side, they bear more responsibility, not all responsibility.

[Holt's Cat]

"no personal responsibility expected in this country?"

who said that?
The lending companies were doing mortgages for people whom they knew were very probably getting in over their heads.

Both sides screwed up, the lenders are the much more sophisticated side, they bear more responsibility, not all responsibility.

The lenders extended credit to those who are likely to have a harder time accessing credit. How is it their problem (other than having to foreclose on a house or deal with slow pays if they still hold the loan) if someone cannot manage their own financial affairs or understand the terms of the deal? Everyone loves to pass the buck in America. Of course, when it's not a "repug", "shrub", or "darth cheney" it's cool to shirk responsibility and look to someone else to bail your dumb ass out.

[1369]

Boutons hates the ARM he has.

[Wild Cobra]

Boutons hates the ARM he has.
Maybe he should cut it off. Might reduce his rediculous posts.

[boutons_]

I have no ARM, you assholes have to make shit up.

[xrayzebra]

Boutons, if you want to get on some ones case about bad, high
interest rate loans, pick on the payday loan companies that charge
rates that are out of sight. But you more than likely think they
are doing a service to their customers.

I still maintain, the buyer of these homes may have lost some
money, equity and maybe not, if it was a negative mortage and
they paid only a portion of the interest, like Calif. But they
would in many cases been paying more in rent than they did
in the house they bought, that is one advantage in buying a
house, in many cases it is cheaper than rent. And they
got a good education on home buying.

Many people have no business buying a house. They have no
idea how to maintain it or the problems of home ownership.

I witnessed this in the seventies, when the govt had many
surplus homes and put many people in them on a lease buy
program. All these folks did was destroy the homes and then
walk off and do it all over again and again. Until, I know in
Abilene, Texas, that they just took bulldozers in and leveled
blocks of empty govt owned homes.

[boutons_]

http://www.mysanantonio.com/images/gbl_logo.gif
Mortgage study notes racial gap

Web Posted: 09/05/2007 07:57 PM CDT

Rachel Stone
Express-News Business Writer

Poor people, blacks and Hispanics get subprime mortgages at higher rates than wealthier people and whites, according to a social justice group's examination of lending data in 172 cities. The annual study released Wednesday from the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, known as ACORN, found that in the San Antonio area, more than 28 percent of all home loans had subprime rates.

Black and Hispanic home buyers across all income levels in the San Antonio area were twice as likely as whites to get high-cost home loans, according to the analysis.

The group looked at lending data from the San Antonio metropolitan statistical area, which covers Atascosa, Bandera, Bexar, Comal, Guadalupe, Kendall, Medina and Wilson counties.

The study's authors defined "subprime mortgages" as those with interest rates at least 3 points higher than the comparable rate on U.S. Treasury securities. Such mortgages typically are issued to those with weak credit histories. Adjustable-rate mortgages — home loans with low introductory interest rates that reset to higher rates over time — weren't necessarily included in the analysis.

At higher income levels, the racial and ethnic disparity persisted. Black and Hispanic borrowers earning more than $63,189 were 1.6 times more likely than whites earning that much to get high-cost loans.

In refinance loans, the gap widened. Almost 57 percent of refinance loans made to blacks and 61 percent made to Hispanics were high-cost loans. Fewer than 40 percent of refinance loans made to whites had subprime rates.

People with lower income levels also got more subprime mortgages. The study found that 45 percent of San Antonio-area borrowers earning less than $26,550 a year got subprime mortgages in 2006.

Fewer than 23 percent of San Antonio-area borrowers earning more than $63,189 got subprime mortgages.

Lenders have come under fire recently for issuing too many subprime mortgages to high-risk borrowers during the past few heady years of the housing bubble.

Now subprime mortgage holders are defaulting in higher numbers than in years past. As a result, several lenders have cut back on the number of subprime loans issued after tightening the qualification requirements for mortgages.

( why didn't the lenders always insist on tight qualifications? because the lenders new they could very probably get a year or two of interest-only payback at least before the borrower dried up. Then the lender can short-sell or foreclos/sell. )
"We have seen a sharp increase in foreclosures in some of the urban and minority communities that most need to build wealth through homeownership," Maude Hurd, ACORN national president, said in a media release.

ACORN is an advocacy group that looks at housing issues for minorities and lower-income consumers. The group has programs to help people learn about credit and how to negotiate with their creditors.

[email protected]

Online at: http://www.mysanantonio.com/business/stories/MYSA090607.03E.AcornStudy.291758a.html

==============

The lenders knew exactly what they were doing. To say the borrowers are the only guility party is stupid.

[Switchman]

Gotta love it.

Dems complain lower-income families can't get homes. The dumbfucks get into arm subprime garbage because they are so uneducated when it comes to financial matters (after all, why use your brain when the govt will take care of you)....shit hits the fan....insert race card....wank fest

[Wild Cobra]

New poster child, John Edwards.

He down talks the sub prime lenders, but has $16 million of his $31 million invested in Fortress Investment Group, which became a public traded company in February of this year. They paid Edwards $479,512 last year for consulting fees. Kind of hard for him to say he had no idea people would be hurt. I heard he was involved in another sub prime lender, but couldn’t remember enough details.

If he is really that stupid, he should never hold public office again.

links:

EDWARDS' FORTRESS INVESTMENT (http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/08/17/321613.aspx)

Edwards to end investments with lenders (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20321742/)

Fortress Investment Group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortress_Investment_Group)

[smeagol]

you assholes have to make shit up.
Dude, you fucking contradict yourself often.

I'm still waiting for you take on Capitalism.

[boutons_]

"I'm still waiting for you take on Capitalism"

while waiting, go fuck yourself

and dude, list the contradictions

[smeagol]

"I'm still waiting for you take on Capitalism"

while waiting, go fuck yourself

and dude, list the contradictions

Are you retarded or just playing dumb?

You bash capitalism in every one of your posts through hyperboles.

You even post:


The whole philosophy of capitalism is to screw the other guy more than he is screwing you.

And then you say:


Who said I was against capitalism?

Don't you see the contradiction, you moron?

Now answer the fucking question:

What is you take on capitalism?

[boutons_]

"The whole philosophy of capitalism is to screw the other guy more than he is screwing you."

statement of fact.

"Who said I was against capitalism?"

Where did I say I was against captilism? still waiting, and still you fuck yourself.

[smeagol]

"The whole philosophy of capitalism is to screw the other guy more than he is screwing you."

statement of fact.

"Who said I was against capitalism?"

Where did I say I was against captilism? still waiting, and still you fuck yourself.
So you support a system that is designed to screw you?

Your stupidity amazes me . . .

[Wild Cobra]

Don't you see the contradiction, you moron?

Now answer the fucking question:

What is you take on capitalism?
He is incapable of doing as you ask. It's only attack, attack, attack with him. A major reason I put him on ignore, as not to waste time with him.

[smeagol]

Ignore is for pussies

[mavs>spurs2]

Call me ignorant but wtf is a neocon?

I don't follow politics all THAT closely

[Holt's Cat]

Ignore is for pussies

Yes. Ridicule is much more enjoyable.

[boutons_]

"support"

If one lives in USA, capitalism, good and bad, is inescapable. Observant people can see both, you right-wing dumbfucks have terminal myopia.

[Wild Cobra]

Ignore is for pussies
If you say so. In the case of those I placed on IGNORE, I just find nothing worth debating from them. If anything, blame me for the lack of self control I have in being bated by their flaming. I get into that mode myself, which I prefer not to.

Smeagol, you and I have serious disagreements. However, both of us generally do not stoop as low as the real flamers here do. Call it my way of helping myself from going into that flaming mode, which I prefer to avoid.

Do I taunt? Yes. Generally I just call things like I see the. If you notice, I have acknowledged being wrong at times. Have you seen those I placed on IGNORE ever admit such things? No, like I said, it's just ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK with them.

I don't know about you, but I don't need that. I can deal with terse conversation, and attacks on me at times, but not when that's all it is. When there is only destructive flames, with no constructive discourse. They are gone.

You should be happy to know that as long as you offer constructive discourse as you almost always do, you can flame me all you want, and I will not place you on IGNORE. I hope you don't take me up on that however.

[ChumpDumper]

Damn, what a pussy.

[johnsmith]

"support"

If one lives in USA, capitalism, it's good and bad, is inescapable. Observant people can see both, you right-wing dumbfucks have terminal myopia.


Dude, your posts are starting to read more and more like a South Carolina Beauty contestant answer every day..........such as.

[smeagol]

"support"

If one lives in USA, capitalism, it's good and bad, is inescapable. Observant people can see both, you right-wing dumbfucks have terminal myopia.

What does living in the US have to do with agreeing or not with capitalism as the best economic system to develop a country?

You have dodged the question five times already.

Pussy.

[101A]

Here's Greespan's take on capitilism:



He continues, "On one side of the Iron Curtain were essentially centrally planned collectivist societies based on the principal that collective activity is what produces wealth and therefore there are no individual rights to property. On the other side were capitalist societies built around the market system, with free trade and individual-property rights. The classic case was East Germany versus West Germany, which were two economies coming from the same history, culture and language... The conventional wisdom was that East Germany's economy was three fourths the size of West Germany's, and that the Soviet Union, while having major shortfalls, was a formidable economic power. Then the Berlin Wall came down, and the economic ruin behind the Iron Curtain was utterly unexpected and unimaginable."

[boutons_]

I'm indifferent. Whatever works, and each industrial country has different mix.

It's clear that corps have gamed and corrupted the system. "free market" and "competition" are untrue as often as true. They have also gamed democracy by buying politicians, disnenfranchising citizens, to obtain/kill legislation that protect the corps, their products, their practices, their profits, while unprotecting employees and the environment.

The Iraq war is oil corp wasting $1T of citizens' tax dollars and 100s of 1000s of lives to grab Iraq oil.

[smeagol]

I'm indifferent.

The way you criticize it, one would think you are not very fond of it.

But I will take your word for it.

[xrayzebra]

Call me ignorant but wtf is a neocon?

I don't follow politics all THAT closely

Actually it is an argument for Liberals. If they don't agree
with you then your are a neocon. True definition changes
with the argument.
:p:

[boutons_]

I hate the bad parts of capitalism and how capitalsim has been perverted.

Since we individuals have NO power to combat the evils of capitalism, it's the role of govt to regulate corps. The ONLY thing stopping the corps from fucking us over more is govt.

[DarkReign]

I'm indifferent. Whatever works, and each industrial country has different mix.

It's clear that corps have gamed and corrupted the system. "free market" and "competition" are untrue as often as true. They have also gamed democracy by buying politicians, disnenfranchising citizens, to obtain/kill legislation that protect the corps, their products, their practices, their profits, while unprotecting employees and the environment.

This much, I agree with. Corporations should be outlawed from making political contributions. Lobbyist groups should be completely restricted to citizen concern.

Free market/Capitalism has been perverted. No one is elected to a federal position without money coming from some large corporation. Corporations do not have the interest of the people, therefore should have little representation with the People.

Ooops...my bad...there I go thinking this is a government of the people, by the people, for the people again. Silly me.

[Nbadan]

Sub prime credit problems are not the real issue but a symptom of the underlying issue. The issue is labor. A quick review of some of the economies worldwide effected currently by "the Sub-prime Crisis indicates two things:

#1. Developing economies such as China, India, Brazil, Mexico, and Russia have positive outlooks on their prospects and are not facing credit problems because their labor force is becoming more affluent due to outsourcing. They are becoming more wealthy. And they are putting their cash into savings and investments.

#2. Developed countries with high labor costs and availability to credit are becoming less affluent because corporate investment has focused on moving labor to foreign markets.

Sub-prime credit problems are the symptom not the cause which is: Corporations moving their operations into economies where they face drastically lower labor costs.