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ros47well
09-08-2007, 11:29 PM
The Solution




All praise is due to Allah, who built the heavens and earth in justice, and created man as a favor and

grace for Him.



And from His ways is that the days rotate between the people, and from His law is retaliation in kind:

an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth and the killer is killed.



And all praise is due to Allah, who awakened His slaves' desire for the Garden, and all of them will

enter it except those who refuse. And whoever obeys Him alone in all of his affairs will enter the Garden, and whoever disobeys Him will

have refused.



As for what comes after:



Peace be upon he who follows the Guidance.



People of America:



I shall be speaking to you on important topics which concern you, so lend me your ears

.



I begin by discussing the war which is between us and some of its repercussions for us and you.




To preface, I say: despite America being the greatest economic power and possessing the most

powerful and up-to-date military arsenal as well; and despite it spending on this war and its army more than the entire world spends on its

armies; and despite it being the major state influencing the policies of the world, as if it has a monopoly on the injust right of veto; despite

all of this, 19 young men were able -by the grace of Allah, the Most High- to change the direction of its compass. And in fact, the subject of

the Mujahedeen has become an inseparable part of the speech of your leader, and the effects and signs of that are not hidden.





Since the 11th, many of America's policies have come under the influence of the Mujahideen, and that

is by the grace of Allah, the Most High. And as a result, the people discovered the truth about it, its reputation worsened, its prestige was

broken globally and it was bled dry economically, even if our interests overlap with the interests of the major corporations and also with

those of the neoconservatives, despite the differing intentions. And your information media, during the first years of the war, lost its

credibility and manifested itself as a tool of the colonialist empires, and its condition has often been worse than the condition of the media

of the dictatorial regimes which march in the caravan of the single leader. Then Bush talks about his working with al-Maliki and his

government to spread freedom in Iraq, but he in fact is working with the leaders of one sect against another sect, in the belief that this will

quickly decide the war in his favor. And thus, what is called the civil war came into being and matters worsened at his hands before getting

out of his control and him becoming like the one who plows and sows the sea: he harvests nothing but failure.



So these are some of the results of the freedom about whose spreading he is talking to you. And then

the backtracking of Bush on his insistence on not giving the United Nations expanded juridiction in Iraq is an implicit admission of his loss

and defeat there. And among the most important items contained in Bush's speeches since the events of the 11th is that the Americans have

no option but to continue the war. This tone is in fact an echoing of the words of neoconservatives like Cheney , Rumsfeld and Richard

pearle, the latter having said previously that the Americans have no choice in front of them other than to continue the war or face a

holocaust.



I say, refuting this unjust statement, that the morality and culture of the holocaust is your

culture, not our culture. In fact, burning living beings is forbidden in our religion, even if they be small like the ant, so what of man?!

The holocaust of the Jews was carried out by your brethren in the middle of Europe, but had it been closer to our countries,

most of the Jews would have been saved by taking refuge with us. And my proof for that is in what your brothers, the Spanish, did when they

set up the horrible courts of the Inquisition to try Muslims and Jews, when the Jews only found safe shelter by taking refuge in our

countries. And that is why the Jewish community in Morocco today is one of the largest communities in the world. They are alive with us and

we have not incinerated them, but we are a people who don't sleep under oppression and reject humiliation and disgrace, and we take

revenge on the people of tyranny and agression, and the blood of the Muslims will not be spilled with impunity, and the morrow is nigh for

he who awaits.



Also, your Christian brothers have been living among us for 14 centuries: in Egypt alone, there are

millions of Christians whom we have not incinerated and shall not incinerate. But the fact is, there is a continuing and biased campaign

being waged against us for a long time now by your politicians and many of your writers by way of your media, especially Hollywood, for the

purpose of misrepresenting Islam and its adherents to drive you away from the true religion. The genocide of peoples and their holocausts

took place at your hands: only a few specimens of Red Indians were spared, and just a few days ago, the Japanese observed the 62nd

anniversary of the annihilation of Hiroshima and Nagasaki by your nuclear weapons.



And among the things which catch the eye of the one who considers the repercussions of your unjust

war against Iraq is the failure of your democratic system, desipte its raising of the slogans of justice, liberty, equality and humanitarianism.

It has not only failed to achieve these things, it has actually destroyed these and other concepts with its weapons -especially in Iraq and

Afghanistan- in a brazen fashion, to replace them with fear, destruction, killing, hunger, illness, displacement and more than a million

orphans in Baghdad alone, not to mention hundreds of thousands of widows. American statistics speak of the killing of more than 650,000

of the people of Iraq as a result of the war and its repercussions.



People of America:



The world is following your news in regards to your invasion of Iraq, for people have recently come to

know that, after several years of the tragedies of this war, the vast majority of you want it stopped. Thus, you elected the Democratic Party

for this purpose, but the Democrats haven't made a move worth mentioning. On the contrary, they continue to agree to the spending of tens

of billions to continue the killing and war there, which has led to the vast majority of you being afflicted with disappointment. And here is

the gist of the matter, so one should pause, think and reflect: why have the Democrats failed to stop this war, despite them

being the majority? I will come back to reply to this question after raising another question, which is: why are the

leaders of the White House keen to start wars and wage them around the world, and make use of every possible opportunity through which

they can reach this purpose, occasionally even creating justifications based on deception and blatant lies, as you saw in Iraq?





In the Vietnam War, the leaders of the White House claimed at the time that it was a

necessary and crucial war, and during it, Rumsfeld and his aides murdered two millions villagers, and when

Kennedy took over the presidency and deviated from the general line of policy drawn up for the White House and wanted to stop this unjust

war, that angered the owners of the major corporations who were benefiting from its continuation. And so Kennedy was killed, and al-Qaida

wasn't present at that time, but rather, those corporations were the primary beneficiary from his killing. And the war continued

after that for approximately one decade. But after it became clear to you that it was an unjust and unnecessary war, you made one of your

greatest mistakes, in that you neither brought to account nor punished those who waged this war, not even the most violent of its

murderers, Rumsfeld.



And even more incredible than that is that Bush picked him as secretary of defense in his first term

after picking Cheney as his vice-president, Powell as secretary of state and Armitage as Powell's deputy, despite their horrific and bloody

history of murdering humans. So that was a clear signal that this administration -the administartion of the generals- didn't

have as its main concern the serving of humanity, but rather, was intersted in bringing about news massacres. Yet in

spite of that, you permitted Bush to complete his first term, and stranger still, chose him for a second term, which gave him a clear mandate

from you -with your full knowledge and consent- to continue to murder our people in Iraq and Afghanistan. Then you claim to be

innocent! This innocense of yours is like my innocence of the blood of your sons on the 11th -were I to claim such a thing. But it is

impossible for me to humor many of you in the arrogance and indifference you show for the lives of humans outside America, or for me to

humor your leaders in their lying, as the entire world knows they have the lion's share of that. These morals aren't our morals.





What I want to emphasize here is that not taking past war criminals to account led to them repeating

that crime of killing humanity without right and waging this unjust war in Mesopotamia, and as a result, here are the oppressed ones today

continuing to take their right from you. This war was entirely unnecessary, as testified to by your own reports. And among the most capable

of those from your own side who speak to you on this topic and on the manufacturing of public opinion is Noam Chomsky, who spoke sober

words of advice prior to the war, but the leader of Texas doesn't like those who give advice.



The entire world came out in unprecedented demonstrations to warn against waging the war and

describe its true nature in eloquent terms like "no to spilling red blood for black oil", yet he paid them no heed. It is time for humankind to

know that talk of the rights of man and freedom are lies produced by the White House and its allies in Europe to deceive humans, take

control of their destinies and subjugate them. So in answer to the question about causes of the Democrats' failure to stop the

war, I say: they are the same reasons which led to the failure of former president Kennedy to stop Vietnam War. Those with real power and

influence are those with the most capital. And since the democratic system permits major corporations to back candidates, be they

presidential or congressional, there shouldn't be any cause for astonishment -and there isn't any- in the Democrats' failure to stop the war.





And you're the ones who have the saying which goes, "Money talks". And I tell you: after the failure of

your representatives in the Democratic Party to implement your desire to stop the war, you can still carry anti-war placards and spread out

in the streets of major cities, then go back to your homes, but that will be of no use and will lead to the prolonging of the war. However,

there are two solutions for stopping it. The first is from our side, and it is to continue to escalate the killing and fighting against you. This is

our duty, and our brothers are carrying it out, and I ask Allah to grant them resolve and victory. And the second solution is from your side. It

has now become clear to you and the entire world the impotence of the democratic system and how it plays with the interests of the

peoples and their blood by sacrificing soldiers and populations to achieve the interests of the major corporations. And with that, it has

become clear to all that they are real tyrannical terrorists.



In fact, the life of all of mankind is in danger because of the global warming resulting to a large

degree from the emissions of the factories of the major corporations, yet despite that, the representative of these corporations in the White

House insists on not observing the Kyoto accord, with the knowledge that the statistic speaks of the death and displacement of millions of

human beings because of that, especially in Africa. This greatest of plagues and most dangerous of threats to the lives of humans is taking

place in an accelerating fashion as the world is being dominated by the democratic system, which confirms its massive failure to protect

humans and their interests from the greed and avarice of the major corporations and their representatives. And despite this brazen attack

on the people, the leaders of the West -especially Bush, Blair, Sarkozy and Brown- still talk about freedom and human rights with a flagrant

disregard for the intellects of human beings. So is there a form of terrorism stronger, clearer and more dangerous than this?





This is why I tell you: as you liberated yourselves before from the slavery of monks, kings

and feudalism, you should today liberate yourselves from the deception, shackles and attrition of the capitalist system. If you

were to ponder it well, you would find that in the end, it is a system harsher and fiercer than your systems in the Middle Ages. The capitalist

system seeks to turn the entire world into a fiefdom of the major corporations under the label of "globalization" in order to protect

democracy. And Iraq and Afghanistan and their tragedies; the reeling of many of you under the burden of interests-related debts, insane

taxes and real estate mortgages; global warming and its woes; and the abject poverty and tragic hunger in Africa: all of this is but one side

of the grim face of this global system. So it is imperative that you free yourselves from all of that and search for an alternative, upright

methodology in which it is not the business of any class of humanity to lay down its own laws to its own advantage at the expense of the

other classes as is the case with you, since the essence of man-made positive laws is that they serve the interests of those with the capital

and thus make the rich richer and the poor poorer.



The infallible methodology is the methodology of Allah, the Most High, who created the heavens and

earth and created the Creation and is the Most Kind and All-Informed and the Knower of the souls of His slaves and the methodology that

best suits them. You believe with absolute certainty that you believe in Allah, and you are full of conviction of this belief, so much so that

you have written this belief of yours on your dollar. But the truth is that you are mistake in this belief of yours. The impartial judge knows

that belief in Allah requires straightness in the following of His methodology, and accordingly, total obedience must be to the orders and

prohibitions of Allah Alone in all aspects of life. So how about you when you associate others with Him in your beliefs and separate state

from religion, then claim that you are believers?! What you have done is clear loss and manifest polytheism. And I will give you a parable of

polytheism, as parables summarize and clarify speech. I tell you: its parable is the parable of a man who owns a shop and hires a worker and

tells him, "Sell and give me the money," but he makes sales and give the money to someone other than the owner. So who of you would

approve of that? You believe that Allah is your Lord and your Creator and the Creator of this earth and that it is His property, then you work

on His earth and property without His orders and without obeying Him, and you legislate in contradiction to His Law and methodology.





This work of yours is the greatest form of polytheism and is rebellion against obedience to Allah with

which the believer becomes an unbeliever, even if he obeys Allah in some of His other orders. Allah, the Most High, sent down His orders in

His Sacred Books like the Torah and Evangel and sent with them the Messengers (Allah's prayers and peace be upon them) as bearers of

good news to the people. And everyone who believes in them and complies with them is a believer from the people of the Garden. Then

when the men of knowledge altered the words of Allah, the Most High, and sold them for a paltry price, as the rabbis did with the Torah and

the monks with the Evangel, Allah sent down His final Book, the magnificent Quran, and safeguarded it from being added to or subtracted

from by the hands of men, and in it is a complete methodology for the lives of all people. And our holding firm to this magnificient Book is

the secret of our strength and winning of the war against you despite the fewness of our numbers and materiel. And if you would like to get

to know some of the reasons for your losing of your war against us, then read the book of Michael Scheuer in this regard. Don't be turned

away from Islam by the terrible situation of the Muslims today, for our rulers in general abandoned Islam many decades ago, but our

forefathers were the leaders and pioneers of the world for many centuries, when they held firmly to Islam.



And before concluding, I tell you: there has been an increase in the thinkers who study events and

happenings, and on the basis of their study, they have declared the approach of the collapse of the American Empire. Among them is the

European thinker who anticipated the fall of the Soviet Union, which indeed fell. And it would benefit you to read what he wrote about what

comes after the empire in regard to the United States of America. I also want to bring to your attention that among the greatest reasons for

the collapse of the Soviet Union was their being afflicted with their leader Brezhnev, who was overtaken by pride and arrogance and refused

to look at the facts on the ground. From the first year of the Afghanistan invasion, reports indicated that the Russians were losing the war,

but he refused to acknowledge this, lest it go down in his personal history as a defeat, even though refusal to acknowledge defeat not only

doesn't do anything to change the facts for thinking people, but also exacerbates the problem and increases the losses. And how similar is

your position today to their position approximately two decades ago. The mistakes of Brezhnev are being repeated by Bush, who -when

asked about the date of his withdrawing of forces from Iraq- said in effect that the withdrawal will not be during his reign, but rather,

during the reign of the one who succeeds him. And the significance of these words is not hidden.



And here I say: it would benefit you to listen to the poignant messages of your soldiers in

Iraq who are paying- with their blood, nerves and scattered limbs- the price for these sorts of irresponsible statements. Among them is the

eloquent message of Joshua which he sent by way of the media, in which he wipes the tears from his eyes and describes American

politicians in harsh terms and invites them to join him there for a few days. Perhaps his message will find in you an attentive ear so you can

rescue him and more than 150,000 of your sons there who are tasting the two bitterest things: if they leave their barracks, the mines

devour them, and if they refuse to leave, rulings are passed against them. Thus, the only options left in front of them are to commit suicide

or cry, both of which are from the severest of afflictions. So is there anything more men can do after crying and killing themselves to make

you respond to them? They are doing that out of the severity of the humiliation, fear and terror which they are suffering. It is

severer than what the slaves used to suffer at your hands centuries ago, and it is as if some of them have gone from one slavery to another

slavery more severe and harmful, even if it be in the fancy dress of the Defense Department's financial enticements.



So do you feel the greatness of their suffering?



To conclude, I invite you to embrace Islam, for the greatest mistake one can

make in this world and one which is uncorrectable is to die while not surrendering to Allah, the Most High, in all aspects of one's life -i.e.,

to die outside of Islam. And Islam means gain for you in this first life and the next, final life. The true religion is a mercy for people in their

lives, filling their hearts with serenity and calm. There is a lesson for you in the Mujahideen: the entire world is in pursuit of them, yet their

hearts, by the grace of Allah, are satisfied and tranquil. The true religion also puts peoples' lives in order with its laws; protects their needs

and interests; refines their morals; protects them from evils; and guarantees for them entrance into Paradise in the hereater through their

obedience to Allah and sincere worship of Him Alone. And it will also achieve your desire to stop the war as a consequence, because as

soon as the warmongering owners of the major corporations realize that you have lost confidence in your democratic system and begun to

search for an alternative, and that this alternative is Islam, they will run after you to please you and achieve what you want to steer you away

from Islam.



So your true compliance with Islam will deprive them of the opportunity to defraud the

peoples and take their money under numerous pretexts, like arms deals and so on. There are no taxes in Islam, but rather, there is a

limited Zakaat [alms] totaling only 2.5% . So beware of the deception of those with the capital. And with your earnest reading

about Islam from its pristine sources, you will arrive at an important truth, which is that the religion of all of the Prophets (peace and

blessings of Allah be upon them) is one, and that its essence is submission to the orders of Allah Alone in all aspects of life, even if their

Shari'ahs [Laws] differ. And did you know that the name of the Prophet of Allah Jesus and his mother (peace and blessings of Allah be upon

them both) are mentioned in the Noble Quran dozens of times, and that in the Quran there is a chapter whose name is "Maryam", i.e. Mary,

daughter of Imran and mother of Jesus (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them both)? It tells the story of her becoming pregnant with

the Prophet of Allah Jesus (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them both), and in it is confirmation of her chastity and purity, in contrast

to the fabrications of the Jews against her.



Whoever wishes to find that out for himself must listen to the verses of this magnificent chapter: one

of the just kings of the Christians -the Negus- listened to some of its verses and his eyes welled up with tears and he said something which

should be reflected on for a long time by those sincere in their search for the truth. He said, "Verily, this and what Jesus brought come from

one lantern": i.e., that the magnificent Quran and the Evangel are both from Allah, the Most High; and every just and intelligent one of you

who reflects on the Quran will definitely arrive at this truth. It also must be noted that Allah has preserved the Quran from the alterations of

men. And reading in order to become acquainted with Islam only requires a little effort, and those of you who are guided will profit greatly.





And peace be upon he who follows the Guidance.






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Holt's Cat
09-08-2007, 11:33 PM
Are you going to vote for him?

ChumpDumper
09-09-2007, 03:21 AM
I don't see why anybody give a shit about what this asshole says.

Wild Cobra
09-09-2007, 06:00 AM
I don't see why anybody give a shit about what this asshole says.
Soon after the release of the tape, I heard an interview with Brigitte Gabriel. She is the author of "Because They Hate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Because_They_Hate)." She said she is more worried than ever bedore of another attack after 9/11 because of the wording. One thing she mentioned is that in Islamic law, there must be three chances to convert before you can kill!

She tells a touching story:

Brigitte Gabriel speaks at a Heritage Foundation event (http://multimedia.heritage.org/content/wm/Lehrman-092706a.wvx)

This above link didn't work with all my tests. If this doesn't work for you, then try here at You Tube in seven parts:

Brigitte Gabriel Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8fa9yKQeTY)

Brigitte Gabriel Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0gBTEwATwU)

Brigitte Gabriel Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sL54rHPwqA)

Brigitte Gabriel Part 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHYyu4vsZ6Y)

Brigitte Gabriel Part 5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgqXYUs3h7Q)

Brigitte Gabriel Part 6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Udib2U0_mPg)

Brigitte Gabriel Part 7 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUmayTNRLg0)

Other material with Brigitte Gabriel:

Brigitte Gabriel talks about the Palestinians (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn1gRIKoBJ0)

Brigitte Gabriel Discusses Lebanon and Israel on CNN (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIy2L5uI9P8)

Ignignokt
09-09-2007, 09:29 AM
I don't see why anybody give a shit about what this asshole says.


Only cynics wouldn't.

xrayzebra
09-09-2007, 10:28 AM
Chump sometimes you ignorance really shows. You would be
better off keeping quite.

You should be worried that he choose this particular time to
come out of his hidey hole.

I also worry that he told his followers something other than
what was on the surface of his little talk. And the bunch in
Germany certainly ties in with this speech.

clambake
09-09-2007, 10:52 AM
yah chump, you ignorance really shows, so keep quite.

clambake
09-09-2007, 10:54 AM
bin laden and bush want the same thing.

they want you to be afraid, very afraid.

xrayzebra
09-09-2007, 12:30 PM
bin laden and bush want the same thing.

they want you to be afraid, very afraid.

Well I don't know about you, but if that is what they want
they have succeeded with me. I am afraid, very afraid, that
is why I consider Iraq a country where we must win.

Only people who are uninformed/ignorant of the facts that
aren't afraid.

Think about what could happen the next time you are
in a shopping mall. They will hit us in a soft target,
bitch slap us, and you and others like you will be hollering
for Bush scalp because he didn't keep you safe.

WHOTTABITCH
09-09-2007, 12:40 PM
bin laden and Democrats want the same thing.

they want you to be lose, really lose.

clambake
09-09-2007, 01:55 PM
i think he would love to have another republican to own.

ChumpDumper
09-09-2007, 04:23 PM
No really -- why should I care what this asshole has to say?

He wants to attack the USA -- all the time. What has changed? Nothing.

How is this somehow a warning to me? It's not. All the previous attacks are all the warning I need. You need more?

Should I now be "more vigilant" than I was last week? Last month? Last year?

What are you doing differently now that the latest video has come out?
One thing she mentioned is that in Islamic law, there must be three chances to convert before you can kill!Are you saying he hasn't killed anyone yet?
You should be worried that he choose this particular time to
come out of his hidey hole. So you know where he is now?

I should "worry" more now than I should have during all this time he wasn't saying anything but still had Al Qaeda carry out and attempt to carry out terror plots?

You guys are idiots.

mookie2001
09-09-2007, 04:33 PM
we should use our military to kill him

j-6
09-09-2007, 05:55 PM
I don't see why anybody give a shit about what this asshole says.

Americans occasionally have to be reminded who he is so when we're texted "We caught bin Laden!!" on our iPhones waiting in line at Starbucks one early fall morning in 2008, we can remember who to vote for.

E20
09-09-2007, 07:14 PM
I read the whole thing. Not much to say except that the Iraq war was a bad move and that Captialism sucks. Also, OBL contradicted himself once.


One thing she mentioned is that in Islamic law, there must be three chances to convert before you can kill!
She must be informed, because Islamic Law in the Quran state that there is no compulsion in religon and people should be left to worship what they want and left alone.

WHOTTABITCH
09-09-2007, 08:28 PM
Free Chicken and Coke Neocon!

xrayzebra
09-10-2007, 09:35 AM
Quote: E20 posted

Originally Posted by xray



One thing she mentioned is that in Islamic law, there must be three chances to convert before you can kill!


Except I didn't say that. Check your source again. And give
credit where credit is due.

E20
09-10-2007, 12:30 PM
Quote: E20 posted

Originally Posted by xray



One thing she mentioned is that in Islamic law, there must be three chances to convert before you can kill!


Except I didn't say that. Check your source again. And give
credit where credit is due.
I guess it's my bad that I didn't say it, but in Islam.

Quran >>> Any man made Islamic law (Even Muhammad's sayings)


I saw some of your clips of her and her wikipedia page. She's what I like to call: Anne Frank syndrome, except that Anne Frank didn't turn out like her. You have this individual whose young life gets ruined and she has no one to blame except the terrorists, so she gets older and has a grudge against muslims in general and lumps them all together. Samething could be said for those Palestine sucidie bombers -- a group comes in and messes up there young life and they have a grudge against that group as a whole. Except in there case nobody will listen to what they have to say and they're already programmed to go out and blow themselves up at a ripe young age.

ChumpDumper
09-10-2007, 12:44 PM
Frances Townsend reinforces my belief I don't have to give a shit about this new tape.

"There's nothing overtly obvious in the tape that would suggest that this is a trigger for an attack. We haven't seen to date the use of an audio or videotape as a trigger for an attack, so we start from that premise."

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2007/09/10/bush_adviser_dismisses_al_qaeda_leader/

If she changes her belief about this tape, I'll consider changing mine.

spurster
09-10-2007, 01:59 PM
Well I don't know about you, but if that is what they want
they have succeeded with me. I am afraid, very afraid, that
is why I consider Iraq a country where we must win.


Why? Is that where OBL is? Is that where AQ headquarters is? Did Iraq plan, support, or carry out 9/11?

xrayzebra
09-10-2007, 02:01 PM
Why? Is that where OBL is? Is that where AQ headquarters is? Did Iraq plan, support, or carry out 9/11?


Well spurster, because that is where we are fighting them
at the present time. Is that too hard for you to figure out?
Can you tell me what the good alternative would be except
victory?

ChumpDumper
09-10-2007, 02:05 PM
What is this week's definition of victory?

xrayzebra
09-10-2007, 02:08 PM
What is this week's definition of victory?


In your and the other dimms estimation: surrender!

Yonivore
09-10-2007, 02:10 PM
Why? Is that where OBL is?
In the sense that this is where President Bush is, by virtue of a deployed military, yeah...he's there.


Is that where AQ headquarters is?
Since when did the absence of a headquarters preclude an entity of having a hostile presence in another country? Do the Iranian Quds forces have a headquarters in Iraq?


Did Iraq plan,
Possibly.


support,
probably.


or carry out 9/11?
I don't think any of the actual hijackers were Iraqi or Ba'athist agents of Saddam Hussein, no.

ChumpDumper
09-10-2007, 02:11 PM
In your and the other dimms estimation: surrender!No, I haven't been a proponent of a precipitous withdrawal ever since this war started.

I am asking you to define what victory in Iraq now means. Can you do it?

xrayzebra
09-10-2007, 02:12 PM
No, I haven't been a proponent of a precipitous withdrawal ever since this war started.

I am asking you to define what victory in Iraq now means. Can you do it?

What in the world do you think victory is? Victory!

ChumpDumper
09-10-2007, 02:12 PM
:lmao @ Yoni's continued insistence that Saddam was behind 9/11.

"They're still translating the documents!"

ChumpDumper
09-10-2007, 02:13 PM
What in the world do you think victory is? Victory!What does that mean in Iraq?

xrayzebra
09-10-2007, 02:16 PM
What does that mean in Iraq?

If you cant figure that then me telling you wont help.
You want to play word games.

ChumpDumper
09-10-2007, 02:17 PM
If you cant figure that then me telling you wont help.
You want to play word games.No, I want you do define what victory in Iraq is.

Why can't you do this?

xrayzebra
09-10-2007, 02:20 PM
No, I want you do define what victory in Iraq is.

Why can't you do this?

Want in one hand and crap in the other and see which one
gets full the fastest. Victory is victory, stupid. That means
you don't surrender or lose. Is that so hard to figure out?

ChumpDumper
09-10-2007, 02:24 PM
So we could just say we won and leave then.

That is what victory means to you.

xrayzebra
09-10-2007, 02:28 PM
So we could just say we won and leave then.

That is what victory means to you.

I didn't say that. And you know it. And again you are
playing word games.

ChumpDumper
09-10-2007, 02:33 PM
You didn't say anything.

E20
09-10-2007, 02:35 PM
Chump pwns mostly anybody in any arguement, he confuses you to the extent that you start agreeing with what Chump says and then Chump still disagrees with you. LOL

spurster
09-10-2007, 02:44 PM
Who is going to surrender so that there will be "victory"?

Yonivore
09-10-2007, 03:26 PM
Who is going to surrender so that there will be "victory"?
Well, I damn sure hope the Democrats don't get their way and it becomes the United States of America.

George Gervin's Afro
09-10-2007, 03:28 PM
Who is going to surrender so that there will be "victory"?


al-qaeda
sunnis
shia
iran
syria

all will lay down when we win in iraq?
of course you could make the argument that we have already won the war however failed to secure the peace..

Medvedenko
09-10-2007, 04:19 PM
Wow....never knew OBL is an environmentalist......who knew....

ObiwanGinobili
09-10-2007, 09:50 PM
wait a minute??

Kenedy became president during vietnam? and wanted to end the ear and thats why he was killed?

boutons_
09-11-2007, 03:48 AM
http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/ssi/globalnav/wpdotcom_190x30.gif (http://www.washingtonpost.com/?nav=pf)

Scarier Than Bin Laden

By Bruce Hoffman
Sunday, September 9, 2007; B01

We don't usually think of terrorists as grand strategists. We're more likely to dismiss them as crazed killers or mindless misanthropes. But as another anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks approaches -- amid reports from U.S. intelligence sources that al-Qaeda (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Al+Qaeda?tid=informline) is marshaling its reconstituted forces for a spectacular new attack on the United States -- it's time to recognize the strategic vision that has driven and shaped the terrorist movement for the past six years.

Even more urgently, we need to drop our preoccupation with Osama bin Laden (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Osama+bin+Laden?tid=informline), which is once again being fueled by his latest video. But Bin Laden's days as the movement's guiding star are over. The United States' most formidable nemesis now is not the Saudi terrorist leader but his nominal deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri.

Part impresario, part visionary, bin Laden made himself and the terrorist organization he co-founded into household words. Today they are paired global "brands" as recognizable and interchangeable as any leading corporation and its high-visibility CEO. But mounting evidence suggests that his time of active involvement in al-Qaeda operations is behind him. Forced into hiding, he has ceased to be a major force in al-Qaeda planning and decision-making and, even more astonishing, in its public relations activities.

According to Asian intelligence sources, it has been two years since bin Laden reportedly chaired a meeting of al-Qaeda's Majlis al-Shura -- the movement's most senior deliberative body. The new video is his first since 2004. Two video messages in nearly three years may demonstrate his enduring symbolic appeal, but they are hardly proof of his continued command of al-Qaeda's foot soldiers.

While bin Laden putters about in his premature forced retirement, making the odd cameo appearance, Zawahiri has taken control of al-Qaeda. He has not only revived the movement's fortunes but has also made it once again the global threat poised to strike the United States that was depicted in the National Intelligence Estimate released in July.

And, almost unnoticed, the low-key, monotonic Zawahiri has become the organization's new public face. Over the past two years, the Egyptian terrorist has issued about 30 statements on a range of subjects -- pontifications on Iraq (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Iraq?tid=informline), Palestine (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Palestine?tid=informline), Kashmir (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Jammu+and+Kashmir?tid=informline) and Pakistan (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Pakistan?tid=informline), alongside al-Qaeda's bread-and-butter condemnations of the United States, Britain (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/United+Kingdom?tid=informline), Israel (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Israel?tid=informline), the West and its various other enemies.

Zawahiri has also overseen a quadrupling of al-Qaeda video releases in the same period. The tapes have featured himself; Adam Gadahn, aka Azzam al-Ameriki ("Azzam the American"), the al-Qaeda terrorist from Southern California; the two suicide bombers responsible for the London (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/London?tid=informline) transit attacks in July 2005; and other jihadist luminaries, all as part of a PR campaign to keep al-Qaeda in the news and to ensure the continued resonance of its message.

He may lack bin Laden's charisma, but Zawahiri is the superior strategist.Middle East (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Middle+East?tid=informline), Central Asia (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Central+Asia?tid=informline), South Asia (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/South+Asia?tid=informline) and Southeast Asia (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Southeast+Asia?tid=informline) that could not remain in power without U.S. support. Zawahiri's strategic vision set off the chain of events that led to 9/11. It was he who, more than a decade ago, defined al-Qaeda's strategy in terms of "far" and "near" enemies. The United States is the "far enemy" whose defeat, he argued, was an essential prerequisite to the elimination of the "near enemy" -- the corrupt and authoritarian anti-Islamic regimes in the

Even more critically, Zawahiri charted a way forward for al-Qaeda in late 2001, when it was widely believed to be on the brink of annihilation. Despite the deaths of his wife and only son in a U.S. airstrike in Afghanistan (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Afghanistan?tid=informline) that November, he did not repine. Even while on the run from CIA (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Central+Intelligence+Agency?tid=informline) and U.S. Special Operations forces and the Afghan Northern Alliance, he came up with an uncompromisingly bellicose yet crystal-clear blueprint for al-Qaeda's revival.

His treatise, published in the London-based Arabic-language newspaper Alsharq al-Awsat in December 2001 and titled "Knights Under the Prophet's Banner," painted a picture of Islam under siege by a predatory, Western-dominated world in which "there is no solution without jihad." He argued for:

1. The need to inflict maximum casualties on the opponent, no matter how much time and effort such operations take, for this is the language understood by the West.

2. The need to concentrate on martyrdom operations as the most successful way to inflict damage and the least costly in casualties to the mujaheddin.

The U.S. invasion of Iraq presented al-Qaeda with the opportunity to put his arguments into practice. As long ago as the second anniversary of the 9/11 attacks, Zawahiri had explained al-Qaeda's strategy in response to what he was already decrying as a repressive U.S.-led occupation. "We thank God," he declared in September 2003, "for appeasing us with the dilemmas in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Americans are facing a delicate situation in both countries. If they withdraw, they will lose everything, and if they stay, they will continue to bleed to death."

Sure enough, what U.S. military (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/U.S.+Armed+Forces?tid=informline) commanders had optimistically described four years ago as the jihadist "magnet" or "flytrap" designed to capture al-Qaeda terrorists in Iraq was having precisely the opposite effect, according to Zawahiri's plan: It was enmeshing the U.S. military in a debilitating war of attrition.

The U.S. entanglement in Iraq had an even more incalculable benefit for al-Qaeda. Our preoccupation first with an escalating insurgency and more recently with an incipient civil war consumed the attention of the U.S. military and intelligence communities at a time when bin Laden, Zawahiri and other al-Qaeda commanders were in desperate straits. With the United States trapped in Iraq, bin Laden and Zawahiri were able to save their own skins. For Zawahiri, Iraq was a means of distracting U.S. attention while al-Qaeda regrouped under his aegis.

This, in essence, was the analysis that outgoing Director of National Intelligence John D. Negroponte (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/John+Negroponte?tid=informline) offered in congressional testimony last January. The annual threat assessment he presented to the Senate intelligence committee painted a disquieting picture of an al-Qaeda no longer "on the run," as President Bush (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/George+W.+Bush?tid=informline) had described it just three months earlier, but now incontrovertibly on the march.

Iraq has also figured prominently in Zawahiri's plans to reinvigorate the jihadist cause and recapture its momentum. By portraying U.S. efforts in Iraq as an oppressive occupation, he and al-Qaeda's hyperactive media arm, al-Sahab ("the clouds" in Arabic), have been able to propagate an image of Islam as perpetually on the defensive, with no alternative but to take up arms against U.S. aggression. The ongoing violence in Iraq -- coupled with the memory of the Abu Ghraib (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Abu+Ghraib?tid=informline) abuses and with the Guantanamo Bay (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Guantanamo+Bay?tid=informline) detentions -- has contributed appreciably to the United States' increasingly poor standing in the Muslim world.

Finally, the appointment of a Zawahiri protege, Abu Ayyub al-Masri (Abu Ayyub "the Egyptian"), to succeed the late Abu Musab al-Zarqawi as commander of al-Qaeda in Iraq (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Al+Qaeda+in+Iraq?tid=informline) further solidified Zawahiri's influence over operations in that country and the implementation of the terrorism battle plan identified years ago in "Knights Under the Prophet's Banner."

Under Zawahiri's leadership, the post-9/11 al-Qaeda has shown itself to be remarkably nimble and adaptive -- able to compensate for and even obviate some of our most effective countermeasures. Last summer's plot to bomb more than 10 U.S. airliners is a case in point. Instead of more accessible targets such as subways and commuter trains, hotels and tourist destinations, this plan was aimed at perhaps the most internationally hardened target since 9/11: commercial aviation. Its leader was another Zawahiri loyalist from Egypt (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Egypt?tid=informline), Abu Ubaydah al-Masri, al-Qaeda's commander in Afghanistan's Kunar province.

This alarming development called into question some of our most basic assumptions about al-Qaeda's capabilities and intentions, given that the movement seems to retain the same grand homicidal ambitions it demonstrated on 9/11. Its members may be dispersed, but al-Qaeda is once again capable of planning and executing bold terrorist strikes.

Thanks to Zawahiri, instead of al-Qaeda R.I.P., we're facing an al-Qaeda that has risen from the grave.

[email protected]

Bruce Hoffman, a professor of security studies at Georgetown University (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Georgetown+University?tid=informline), is a senior fellow at the U.S. Military Academy's Combating Terrorism Center and the author of "Inside Terrorism."

==================

I have the impression the the jihadists have much more motivation and hunger, are warring with more intelligence.

The US has the industrial base, the technological and military power, but with dubya and his dubya-suckers running the show with the primary motivation of grabbing oil rather than US national security, with the US population making NO sacrifices, I just don't get the impression that the US is serious about the war on the jihadists.

Iraq is just one huge, unending dubya/dickhead fuckup that is totally unrlelated to the war on terror, a distraction from the war on terror that fules the terrorists, doesn't defeat them. Tied down in Iraq, the US won't/can't make diplomatic overtures to Muslim countries that are Zawahiri's "near targets".

ChumpDumper
09-11-2007, 04:48 AM
One would hope we're looking for both of these guys. Zawahiri's videos look much better produced, like he's in a different location. And yeah, he's released like seven videos this year alone.