A jarhead dream come true

[clambake]

Untouchables have friends in high places
Email Print Normal font Large font September 21, 2007

WASHINGTON: Blackwater USA, the private security company involved in a lethal shoot-out in Iraq last weekend, operates under State Department authority and is untouchable, US and Iraqi officials said.

The department's protection meant the company, which provides security for the most senior American diplomats, was exempt from US military regulations governing other security firms. The State Department defended Blackwater at every turn, the officials said.

In recent months, the State Department's protection of Blackwater has become a central issue as Iraqi authorities repeatedly clashed with the company over its aggressive street tactics.

The State Department has allowed the company's heavily armed teams to operate without an Interior Ministry licence, even after the requirement became standard in Defence Department security contracts.

Blackwater is not subject to the military's restrictions on the use of offensive weapons, its procedures for reporting shooting incidents or a central tracking system that allows commanders to monitor the movements of security firms on the battlefield, officials said.

Baghdad again criticised Blackwater on Wednesday, with the Prime Minister, Nouri al-Maliki, saying his government had reports of seven cases in which its guards had killed Iraqis.

The shoot-out on Sunday that involved a US diplomatic convoy and killed at least nine Iraqis infuriated Iraqi authorities, prompting them to ban Blackwater.

At a news conference on Wednesday, Mr Maliki said: "This act, which I call a crime, has created a state of tension and anger among all of us. It is better for this company to freeze its activity, and the embassy can drive out with other companies."

He said the Government was rewriting the rules that regulate private security companies, which have immunity from Iraqi law.

"This company should be held accountable for these violations," Mr Maliki said, "because we will never allow Iraqi citizens to be killed in cold blood by this company that is playing with the lives of the people."

Lawrence Smith, the deputy director of the Private Security Company Association of Iraq, said Blackwater "has a client who will support them no matter what they do."

[ChumpDumper]

These guys have a union?

Priceless.

But I don't know what this has to do with real jarheads.

[clambake]

These guys have a union?

Priceless.

But I don't know what this has to do with real jarheads.

are you kidding? making real dough and avoiding any repercussions for doing the one thing you love to do? being a jarhead could take on a whole new meaning, with reward.

That's priceless.

[ChumpDumper]

I think it's more a sociopath's dream come true. Most military folk I know actually like the code of conduct.

[clambake]

I should have been more clear. able to throw the code away.

[1369]

So Blackwater is run by former Marines?

[clambake]

i saw a documentary some time back. i think it was formed by a seal and stocked with former marines. if i were a marine, i'd think this is the way to go. why not make 5 times what a soldier makes and avoid any prosecution for minor indiscretions.

[1369]

So, all former Marines are folks who kill for thrills and are looking for the easy buck?

[Nbadan]

...quit generalizing, not all the private contractors in Iraq are former Marines, in fact, some served in the most brutal dictatorships in Central and South America.....

[Wild Cobra]

Let me say put a one thing in perspective first.

Countries that the US military operates in have what is called SOFA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_forces_agreement) (status of forces agreement) agreement. There is likely no such agreement in Iraq yet, and at this point there needs to be, if we are to respect Iraq's current government.

Now in my opinion, if the allegation against the Blackwater employees are true, they need to be dealt with. If they indiscriminately are killing civilians, they need to be tried for war crimes. I am not willing to believe that off-hand, just because so many erroneous reports have been and still do come out of Iraq.

Iraq's government should enforce it's sovereignty in any way it wishes. We set them up to become a self governing nation, and if there first action is to kick out Blackwater, then so be it.

Ever watch a TV series called "The Unit?" I was so pissed when it first came out because it is based on a book called "Inside Delta Force" yet the Hollywood twist has some serious flaws in the characters that would never be tolerated. Sure, on of the characters might have a chance of slipping by... but... the number of character flaws is like winning the lottery. Anyway, there is a storyline where recruiters are trying to get people from "The Unit" to join contract forces. Some of the story gets a little interesting. Now who joins there 'Blackwater' forces? Is it the ones with integrity who believe in their missions, or the ones who get kicked out for not maintaining standards? Could it even be some of the washouts? Teams like Delta Force and The Seals have a very high wash-out rate. Only the best of the best make it. I think it is only about 3% who try for these units make the cut. Still, just to be selected for testing, is an honor, even if you get washed out!

[SAtoDallas]

Hey bake why don't you get that clam out from between your legs. You've probably never even served much less in the Corps. Your real tough behind a screen right?

[ChumpDumper]

Iraq's government should enforce it's sovereignty in any way it wishes. We set them up to become a self governing nation, and if there first action is to kick out Blackwater, then so be it.And if they felt like prosecuting and beheading some actual US soldiers or marines for some similar crime, so be it? We will never allow this. I believe Lindsey Graham is trying to make the mercenaries subject to the uniform code and there is a clunky mechanism to try them in US federal court. That's about as good as it's going to get.

[Ignignokt]

And if they felt like prosecuting and beheading some actual US soldiers or marines for some similar crime, so be it? We will never allow this. I believe Lindsey Graham is trying to make the mercenaries subject to the uniform code and there is a clunky mechanism to try them in US federal court. That's about as good as it's going to get.


You're an idiot.

Equating getting kicked out of the country with beheading is classic MasterBAiter logic.

[I'm confused]

Hey bake why don't you get that clam out from between your legs. You've probably never even served much less in the Corps. Your real tough behind a screen right?


oh great we have another keyboard chickenhawk... I know your a real tough girl.. :rolleyes

[gtownspur]

oh great we have another keyboard chickenhawk... I know your a real tough girl.. :rolleyes

well there can't be a thing as a keyboard libtard. because the pussiness factor would be redundant in the words Keyboard and Libtard.

[George Gervin's Afro]

well there can't be a thing as a keyboard libtard. because the pussiness factor would be redundant in the words Keyboard and Libtard.


Hi I wear pink becuase I smell and look like a pussy..

[ChumpDumper]

You're an idiot.

Equating getting kicked out of the country with beheading is classic MasterBAiter logic.Except I'm right. We will never allow Iraq to try them.

[gtownspur]

Hi I wear pink becuase I smell and look like a pussy..


no i wear pink becuase it smells and looks like your chicks pussy. :fro

[gtownspur]

Except I'm right. We will never allow Iraq to try them.

That's completely pointless. Stay on topic, MB.

[ChumpDumper]

That's completely pointless. Stay on topic, MB.It's completely on topic.

[gtownspur]

Iraq govt could vote to make us leave, and we'll leave. But we'll never ever let them try our citizens. That's about every country.

This fact has no point to the thread.

Are you this retarded?

[gtownspur]

It's completely on topic.


No it's not. Blackwater is not going to be tried in court in Iraq. Everything is not black or white, Master or Bait.

[ChumpDumper]

But we'll never ever let them try our citizens.No. If you were at all intelligent you would know I am not talking about all US citizens. Expecting anything other than a red ass from you is too much.

[gtownspur]

"except we'll never allow our mercenaries to convert to islam."

-I'm chumpdumper and i think i make sense.

[gtownspur]

No. If you were at all intelligent you would know I am not talking about all US citizens. Expecting anything other than a red ass from you is too much.


Mercenaries are our citizens dipshit. They're private contractors dickwad, just like a haliburton or shell employee.

Did your translator take a day off?

[ChumpDumper]

No it's not. Blackwater is not going to be tried in court in Iraq. Everything is not black or white, Master or Bait.There is no good reason for the US to allow it when they have a system in place to address the legal issue.

[ChumpDumper]

Mercenaries are our citizens dipshit.Not all citizens are mercenaries. And not all mercenaries are US citizens. Simple logic escapes you.

Why are you losing your shit so badly?

[gtownspur]

And if they felt like prosecuting and beheading some actual US soldiers or marines for some similar crime, so be it? We will never allow this. I believe Lindsey Graham is trying to make the mercenaries subject to the uniform code and there is a clunky mechanism to try them in US federal court. That's about as good as it's going to get.

According to this qoute, we don't have a legal system to try them.



There is no good reason for the US to allow it when they have a system in place to address the legal issue.

And now we do?

It's better actually arguing with boutons, atleast he keeps track of his BS, and doesn't contradict himself.


Besides, There's no good reason to mention it, because Maliki has no intention of trying them, you were just trying to invalidate WC's point. Which your rebuttal was not even a factor.

[gtownspur]

Not all citizens are mercenaries. And not all mercenaries are US citizens. Simple logic escapes you.

Why are you losing your shit so badly?

If you mean Blackwater, which is US owned managed and operated by US citizens former special ops and US marines, and not angolans or cubans, then you still fail.

Simple comprehension escapes you.

Why are you losing this argument so badly?

[ChumpDumper]

According to this qoute, we don't have a legal system to try them.You should really have someone help you read these things.
And now we do?Yep.
Besides, There's no good reason to mention it, because Maliki has no intention of trying them, you were just trying to invalidate WC's point.I was addressing WC's point, which he brought up. Show your red ass to him, moderator.

[gtownspur]

if we did have a way to try these people, then Lindsey graham is wasting his time.

I just think it's funny how you like calling people "moderator", male authority must turn you on.

And the references to cheek slapping.... gay.

[ChumpDumper]

If you mean Blackwater, which is US owned managed and operated by US citizens former special ops and US marines, and not angolans or cubans, then you still fail. I see no link showing the exact demographoc composition of Blackwater employees, nor does it matter. It matters for whom they are working.

[ChumpDumper]

if we did have a way to try these people, then Lindsey graham is wasting his time.No, nailing down which code of conduct is to be followed by the contractors is very important.


I just think it's funny how you like calling people "moderator", male authority must turn you on.I know pretending like you have authority turns you on.


And the references to cheek slapping.... gay.Again, you really don't know anything.

I was calling you a baboon.

You are just not very intelligent at all.

[gtownspur]

I see no link showing the exact demographoc composition of Blackwater employees, nor does it matter. It matters for whom they are working.


Then don't waste your time.

[gtownspur]

No, nailing down which code of conduct is to be followed by the contractors is very important.

I know pretending like you have authority turns you on.

Again, you really don't know anything.

I was calling you a baboon.

You are just not very intelligent at all.


Baboon.. :lol . A baboon, is one who fails to stay on subject. Again, what does beheading have to do with this dumbass?

[ChumpDumper]

Baboons have red asses. Beheading or some other capital punishment is a possible consequence if US security personnel is subject to the Iraqi justice system. Given the relative instability of the Iraqi government, this is a box of worms the US would prefer not to open, and I don't blame them at all.

[xrayzebra]

And if they felt like prosecuting and beheading some actual US soldiers or marines for some similar crime, so be it? We will never allow this. I believe Lindsey Graham is trying to make the mercenaries subject to the uniform code and there is a clunky mechanism to try them in US federal court. That's about as good as it's going to get.

I may be mistaken, but I think the Supreme Court ruled
back in the 60's that civilians can't be tried under the
USMJ. That civilians even when overseas with the military, it was the wife of a military service member,
who was tried and convicted of murder and the German
government relinquished prosecution to our military and
the wife got it overturned after returning to the U.S.
I may be a bit wrong on some minor points but I think
this was the case. If I remember correctly she walked.


I stand corrected. The law was corrected in 2000.

See article below:


csmonitor.com - The Christian Science Monitor Online
from the September 21, 2007 edition - http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0921/p03s03-woiq.html
A legal danger zone for Blackwater
The contractor and other US firms working in Iraq could be subject to prosecution from several quarters.
By Brad Knickerbocker | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

The recent killing of Iraqi civilians by private American security contractors reveals one of the biggest changes in modern US war-fighting – its increased reliance on private companies. It also illustrates difficult questions about the legal standing of those workers that are just starting to be understood.

The nub of the problem: how to deal with civilian contractors who break the law in a seemingly lawless place.

Legal tools to prosecute such wrongdoing are available, experts say. But the relevant US government agencies have been slow to use them.

"There is a basis for the US Department of Justice to conduct an investigation and bring charges under MEJA," says Kevin Lanigan, a New York lawyer and law professor who served as a US Army Reserve judge advocate in Bosnia, Afghanistan, and Iraq. MEJA is the Military Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act of 2000, which authorizes the Justice Department to prosecute employees of US contractors and subcontractors who commit crimes on foreign soil.

The Uniform Code of Military Justice, the legal system governing those in uniform, was amended by Congress last year to allow charges to be brought against civilian contractors, Mr. Lanigan also notes. But the Pentagon has yet to issue guidelines to military commanders on how to do this, according to Lanigan and others.

In recent congressional testimony, Scott Horton, an international lawyer who teaches at Columbia University in New York, explained the growth in reliance on military contractors. In World War II, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War, the share of the total force represented by civilian contract employees seldom exceeded 5 percent. That doubled during the Gulf War. But in the Iraq conflict, the ratio is nearly equal.

"Before the ... 'surge,' for instance, the total community of contractors in Iraq was around 100,000, and the number of uniformed service personnel was around 125,000," Mr. Horton said. "This represents an extremely radical transformation in the force configuration."

Many contract workers provide services once handled in-house by the military, such as food service and freight transport. Some 20,000 to 30,000 perform security functions, according to a July Congressional Research Service report.

Of the dozens of security companies holding contracts in Iraq, the largest and now most notorious is Blackwater USA. The secretive North Carolina-based company was founded in 1997 by former military special operations veterans. It has nine business units providing training at its main facility on 6,000 acres of private land as well as in other locations around the world.

Among other things, the company helps countries develop national and global security policies and military transformation plans.

Blackwater reportedly has received more than $500 million in US government contracts, mostly in Iraq but also for other assignments. Its employees come from many countries, including Fiji and Bulgaria, both of which have lost Blackwater men in Iraq.

It is known to hire "testosterone-filled and aggressive" men, says an active-duty Army officer now stationed in Baghdad's Green Zone. "The Iraqis hate them," the officer says, referring to Blackwater specifically.

From the start, the firm has had connections to high-ranking Republican officials. Its vice chairman is Cofer Black, State Department coordinator for counterterrorism during President Bush's first term. Blackwater founder and former Navy SEAL Erik Prince has been a major donor to Republican committees and candidates.

But those connections are unlikely to help in current circumstances, even if Blackwater is allowed to stay in Iraq.

"Blackwater and other security firms will not be able to function effectively if they must adhere strictly to the letter of Iraqi law," says Loren Thompson, military analyst at the Lexington Institute. "Iraq is in the midst of a brutal insurgency in which few of the players pay any attention to the law. Waiting for the police to show up isn't a viable option in today's Iraq."

Can Blackwater and other firms continue to operate in Iraq if their employees are subject to Iraqi law, as Iraqi officials want them to be?

They possibly would face more restrictive rules of engagement and aggressive prosecution by the Iraqi government, says Dina Rasor, coauthor of the book "Betraying Our Troops: The Destructive Results of Privatizing War" and a longtime investigator of military spending. "Even though many of the Blackwater employees may be willing to work for an approved company, they may think twice about operating under laws that the Iraqi government can enforce. They may not want to face Iraqi jail."

In any case, the problem of oversight remains. Defense Department spending on contracts rose nearly 80 percent over the past decade, while the number of Pentagon employees tracking such contracts dropped by some 40 percent, says Peter Singer, a foreign policy specialist at the Brookings Institution in Washington. "Basically you have more and more contracts with less and less people overseeing them," he says.

No matter how Blackwater's situation in Iraq turns out, a sound legal regimen for holding contractors accountable is still needed. Says Lanigan, "Right now, we don't have that."

Here is the link about the change of law (http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0921/p03s03-woiq.htm)

[clambake]

No matter how Blackwater's situation in Iraq turns out, a sound legal regimen for holding contractors accountable is still needed. Says Lanigan, "Right now, we don't have that."

thats what i said from the beginning. make the cash without fear of consequences. what little kid didn't like old westerns?

[Oh, Gee!!]

I don't know who's a bigger idiot: gtown for being, well, a total idiot, or chumpie for entering into a debate with the idiot. Eh, it's gtown by a mile.

[DarkReign]

I am starting to think that a few of the regulars here dont want to explore topics from different view points, moreso than they want to be able to call someone a dick-monkey in all seriousness without the inevitable beating you would take if you said that to another man's face.

I dont know how or where some of you were raised, I was born in a small city outside Detroit, suburban dreams....Most everything I write, I write with a smile or a laugh. Only once in my time on ST did I actually lose my patience with another individual (sorry Yoni). I like to think I am speaking directly to another individual and bring the appropriate respect another person deserves as much as I do.

I mean, honestly now, have you ever been to a bar? Or a public gathering of any sort? People have been beaten for far less than what is said on this forum. I am no Chuck Liddell by any stretch of your imagination, but if some of you used the same phraseology to me in person, I'd knock your teeth out plain and simple.

I am just surprised by how quickly and predictably a thread can devolve into taunts and attacks when the distance between the two opposing viewpoints is minute, to say the least.

Continue on.

/rant

[Oh, Gee!!]

Irony: someone from Detroit giving a lesson on civility.

[clambake]

I am starting to think that a few of the regulars here dont want to explore topics from different view points, moreso than they want to be able to call someone a dick-monkey in all seriousness without the inevitable beating you would take if you said that to another man's face.

I dont know how or where some of you were raised, I was born in a small city outside Detroit, suburban dreams....Most everything I write, I write with a smile or a laugh. Only once in my time on ST did I actually lose my patience with another individual (sorry Yoni). I like to think I am speaking directly to another individual and bring the appropriate respect another person deserves as much as I do.

I mean, honestly now, have you ever been to a bar? Or a public gathering of any sort? People have been beaten for far less than what is said on this forum. I am no Chuck Liddell by any stretch of your imagination, but if some of you used the same phraseology to me in person, I'd knock your teeth out plain and simple.

I am just surprised by how quickly and predictably a thread can devolve into taunts and attacks when the distance between the two opposing viewpoints is minute, to say the least.

Continue on.

/rant
myself, i would completely exhaust all efforts to avoid physical confrontation regardless of spoken insult.

there is a divide between political ideals thats unlikely to shrink, barring a catastrophe that forces opposing sides to count on each other for survival. the climate is ripe for just such an event.

[DarkReign]

Irony: someone from Detroit giving a lesson on civility.

Im not from Detroit.

PWNED! pheer teh 5kllz...

[ChumpDumper]

Actually all your posts are written with a sense of smug superiority, and declaring your superoiority is an attack in itself.

It's an interenet message board. Get over yourself.

[clambake]

Im not from Detroit.
you're not from Detroit, but you moved there.......deliberately?

[1369]

Actually all your posts are written with a sense of smug superiority, and declaring your superoiority is an attack in itself.

It's an interenet message board. Get over yourself.

http://www.apostropher.com/blog/img/pot-kettle.jpg

[ChumpDumper]

http://www.apostropher.com/blog/img/pot-kettle.jpgI don't say I'm better than everyone. It's self-evident.

[Wild Cobra]

elpimpo4cc, I see only one problem with the pics for a Jarheads Dream. I haven't seen one yet that plays pool with BCA rules.

[DarkReign]

Actually all your posts are written with a sense of smug superiority,
I know that. I've always been told that I write exactly like I speak. I cant find the exact post(s), but I have made it clear to others that it is not my intention. I have no delusions of being smarter or brighter or better than anyone else here. Quite the contrary, I know for a fact I am one of the least-informed and un-read here.


and declaring your superiority is an attack in itself.

I dont think I am superior to anyone. What? Someone points out the lack of civility and somehow you misconstrue that into his declaration of superiority?! Come again?


It's an interenet message board. Get over yourself.

Quite true. I couldnt possibly be more over myself, my good man. There was a time when I was a teenager that I seriously thought I was smarter than everyone else. It was about 10 years ago that reality (literally) punched me in the face. Being taught humility is quite a refreshing experience when viewed in hindsight. Best beating I ever took.

But regardless, some people say it and dont mean it, but I believe sincerely that I do.

[xrayzebra]

Im not from Detroit.

PWNED! pheer teh 5kllz...



DarkReign I know that. I've always been told that I write exactly like I speak. I cant find the exact post(s), but I have made it clear to others that it is not my intention. I have no delusions of being smarter or brighter or better than anyone else here. Quite the contrary, I know for a fact I am one of the least-informed and un-read here.

And don't call me Doris.............. :lol

Sorry DR, I couldn't resist.

[DarkReign]

you're not from Detroit, but you moved there.......deliberately?

:lmao No, but when people say they are from Detroit (which I do when traveling), they arent actually from the City of Detroit (usually).

Detroit is a large metro area. I was born about 6 miles north of the city limits (City of Warren), started my childhood about 10 miles north of Detroit (Sterling Heights), moved in with my father at age 6 about 15 miles north of Detroit (see a pattern here? Shelby Township) and spent the majority of my life there.

I now live about 18 miles north of Detroit (pattern continues...).

[xrayzebra]

:lmao No, but when people say they are from Detroit (which I do when traveling), they arent actually from the City of Detroit (usually).

Detroit is a large metro area. I was born about 6 miles north of the city limits (City of Warren), started my childhood about 10 miles north of Detroit (Sterling Heights), moved in with my father at age 6 about 15 miles north of Detroit (see a pattern here? Shelby Township) and spent the majority of my life there.

I now live about 18 miles north of Detroit (pattern continues...).

I heard some stats on Michigan yesterday about how
it has been depopulated by about 900 thousand. And
that is scary.

[DarkReign]

I heard some stats on Michigan yesterday about how
it has been depopulated by about 900 thousand. And
that is scary.

...and the UAW decided to strike 2 days ago. Idiotas. But they reached an agreement in principal today. Ratification meetings this Friday.


Detroit has always been Michigan's largest city since its founding in 1701, but its growth, like the state's, was slow until well into the 19th century. The city's population grew from 21,019 in 1850 to 285,704 in 1900, when it ranked as the 13th-largest city in the country. Within the next 30 years, the booming automobile industry pushed the city up into 4th place, with a population of 1,568,662 in 1930. Since 1950, when the total reached 1,849,568, Detroit has lost population, dropping to 1,514,063 in 1970, 1,203,369 in 1980 and to 1,028,000 in 1990, when it held 7th place among US cities. The 2002 population was estimated at 925,051, putting Detroit in 10th place. As Detroit lost population, however, many of its suburban areas grew at an even greater rate. The Detroit metropolitan area totaled an estimated 5,469,312 in 1999, up from 4,320,203 in 1995 and 3,950,000 in 1960.