NBA's Most Efficient Players-Duncan #1, Manu #6

[duncan228]

All right, so it's Hoopsworld. :lol
I thought it was a good debate list.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/article_23375.shtml

Lawhorn: The NBA's Most Efficient Players

By Adrian Lawhorn

There is constant discussion in the NBA community regarding which players are the most productive and contribute the most to their teams. Let's take a critical look at this from a statistical analysis perspective.

There are almost as many player rating systems as there are players. However, some are certainly better than others. This article will focus on some of the best and most meaningful metrics that exist today, and use those measures to rank the most efficient players in the NBA for 2006-07.

First, a primer on some of the more in-depth statistics that will be used (the data used for these "non-traditional" stats courtesy of 82games.com).

PER - A metric developed by statistician John Hollinger, this statistic takes all measurable NBA stats, carefully weights them, runs them through a complex formula and comes up with a final value that represents a player's overall efficiency.

Net PER - Taking the PER of a player, and subtracting the PER of the player he was matched up against in each game. The final number gives us an indication of how a player performed against his "opposite number" throughout the season.

On/Off - This is also known as the +/- number. The statistic for each individual player indicates the impact he has on his team when he is on the floor. This is calculated by looking at team scoring when a particular player is on and off the court.

So, without further ado, here are the most efficient players in the league (2006-07 regular season). Let the countdown begin!

10. Gilbert Arenas, Washington Wizards
Points: 28.4 Rebounds: 4.6 Assists: 6.0 Net PER: +6.8 On/Off: +14.1

Agent Zero is far from a zero on the basketball floor. He fills the stat sheet on a nightly basis, has a very solid Net PER, and a spectacular On/Off number. The entire complexion of the game changes when Arenas is on the court, and that earns him a spot on this list.

9. Tracy McGrady, Houston Rockets
Points: 24.6 Rebounds: 5.3 Assists: 6.5 Net PER: +13.2 On/Off: +7.8

Another player with a nice all-around game. His On/Off number can't match that of Gilbert Arenas (although McGrady's is still very good), but he outproduces his opponents by leaps and bounds - which more than makes up for it.

8. Kobe Bryant, Los Angeles Lakers
Points: 31.6 Rebounds: 5.7 Assists: 5.4 Net PER: +14.3 On/Off: +7.6

Some may wonder why Kobe isn't higher on this list. His overall production is certainly top-notch, but the Lakers don't suffer as much without him on the floor as one might think. The Lakers a one-man team? I think not.

7. LeBron James, Cleveland Cavaliers
Points: 27.3 Rebounds: 6.7 Assists: 6.0 Net PER: +13.6 On/Off: +9.6

Yet another superstar who isn't at the top of this list. All his numbers are outstanding: he produces well in many areas, his Net PER is excellent, and his On/Off number is quite high. He is a tremendous player, but there just happen to be six other players who were even more efficient than King James last year.

6. Manu Ginobili, San Antonio Spurs
Points: 16.5 Rebounds: 4.4 Assists: 3.5 Net PER: +14.5 On/Off: +8.9

This might cause some readers to shake their heads in disbelief, but here is the scoop. This analysis is all about production, how well you hold down your opponent, and how much impact you have on your team's success. Being more famous or doing more shoe commercials doesn't count for anything here.

5. Dwyane Wade, Miami Heat
Points: 27.4 Rebounds: 4.7 Assists: 7.5 Net PER: +17.3 On/Off: +6.2

I doubt anyone is surprised that Wade cracked the top five. His overall statistics are gaudy, and he outproduces his opponents by a ridiculous amount on a regular basis. The only thing that kept him from being even higher on the list is that the Heat don't exactly fall apart when he is on the bench.

4. Yao Ming, Houston Rockets
Points: 25.0 Rebounds: 9.4 Assists: 2.0 Net PER: +17.0 On/Off: +6.7

Yao has become an efficient scoring machine, and his work on the boards is perhaps underrated. His Net PER and On/Off values are so high, he was able to edge Dwyane Wade for fourth place. This might calm some of the "haters" who think Yao is an underachiever and not worthy of all the hype.

3. Kevin Garnett, Minnesota Timberwolves
Points: 22.4 Rebounds: 12.8 Assists: 4.1 Net PER: +12.7 On/Off: +15.0

Garnett was his usual self last season for the Wolves - an absolute monster. Very high production...and much higher than the forwards around the league he routinely abused. His On/Off value reinforces the point that he was amazingly valuable to Minnesota when he was in the fray. Celtics fans far and wide are hoping for much of the same this coming season!

2. Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas Mavericks
Points: 24.6 Rebounds: 8.9 Assists: 3.4 Net PER: +17.1 On/Off: +12.4

The reigning NBA MVP almost took this title as well, but fell just a little short of another superstar frontcourt performer. Dirk's stats are clearly stellar, and he is a critical component to the Dallas Mavericks and the success they've had. This is one case where reputation and analysis see eye to eye, but there is one player the big German could not quite overtake...

1. Tim Duncan, San Antonio Spurs
Points: 20.0 Rebounds: 10.6 Assists: 3.4 Net PER: +14.8 On/Off: +15.0

No big surprise, but Tim Duncan was statistically the most efficient player in the NBA last season. Known for his strong fundamentals and consistency, he was just as consistent here, posting near-identical marks for Net PER and On/Off ratings. Tim Duncan outperforms his opponents and contributes to winning to such a large degree, nobody else in the NBA can match him in these two vital categories.

As you can see, this method of rating players yielded some solid results. The top-rated player just won his fourth NBA championship, and the player who finished a close second led the Dallas Mavericks to a 67-15 regular season and took home the 2006-07 MVP trophy. There is plenty of debate about the use of statistical analysis in sports, but objective and subjective information can sometimes lead us to the same conclusions, and this study led us directly to the best players in the game today.

[SpursWillOwn]

NO SUNS PLAYERS? ha. are they really just for show?

[exstatic]

...and two time MVP Nash is nowhere to be found. What a shock.

I'm guessing his Net PER number is shit because his man lights him up like a Roman candle every night. :lmao

[wildbill2u]

Just proves what we already knew about Manu and Timmy.

WE ARE the Champions!

[Kamnik]

Im surprised Manu is that high!

But for Duncan... it is just another proof he is the best out there!

[WalterBenitez]

THis ranking is boring, two spurs on it!

[DR WU]

THis ranking is boring, two spurs on it!

What's boring is your uncreative and tired rhetoric...get a life. :drunk

[Ya Vez]

Just goes to prove why the Spurs are still the best franchise in all of professional sports..

[ShoogarBear]

What's boring is your uncreative and tired rhetoric...get a life. :drunkHe's a Spurs fan . . . so maybe he was, I dunno, being IRONIC?

[meta2007]

I am very happy Manu is ranked at the position that he deserves to be.

Without a doubt, he is the NO.1 guard in FIBA. He is also a top guard in NBA.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

LOL @ Gilbert Arenas and Tracy McGrady being efficient players.

[Xylus]

You lost me at Hoopsworld.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

:lol

[Samr]

Being more famous or doing more shoe commercials doesn't count for anything here.

Anyone else think this may be a subtle dig at the other guys?

[ManuAddicted]

6. Manu Ginobili, San Antonio Spurs
Points: 16.5 Rebounds: 4.4 Assists: 3.5 Net PER: +14.5 On/Off: +8.9

This might cause some readers to shake their heads in disbelief, but here is the scoop. This analysis is all about production, how well you hold down your opponent, and how much impact you have on your team's success. Being more famous or doing more shoe commercials doesn't count for anything here.

1. Tim Duncan, San Antonio Spurs
Points: 20.0 Rebounds: 10.6 Assists: 3.4 Net PER: +14.8 On/Off: +15.0

No big surprise, but Tim Duncan was statistically the most efficient player in the NBA last season. Known for his strong fundamentals and consistency, he was just as consistent here, posting near-identical marks for Net PER and On/Off ratings. Tim Duncan outperforms his opponents and contributes to winning to such a large degree, nobody else in the NBA can match him in these two vital categories.



No big suprise for me...

Go Spurs Go!!!!

[duncan228]

You lost me at Hoopsworld.

:lol I warned people in my first sentence so they could stop reading! :lol

[Medvedenko]

Funny list....the usual suspects.....I wouldn't rank Manu that high regardless of the list...does he even start for the spurs? I know he comes off the bench a lot and plays agains the secondary more often than the top guys. Still he's a top notch player, but Top 5 SG's he's not. No disrespect though.

[exstatic]

Funny list....the usual suspects.....I wouldn't rank Manu that high regardless of the list...does he even start for the spurs? I know he comes off the bench a lot and plays agains the secondary more often than the top guys. Still he's a top notch player, but Top 5 SG's he's not. No disrespect though.
RIF. Nowhere here did it say this was a list of the top 10 players. It's a list of the 10 most efficient players, the ones that make the most of their minutes on the floor, and make sure that their opponent doesn't. There is a difference, and it's also not a coincidence that there are 2 Spurs players on the list and that no Spur player averaged even 35 minutes. In general, the more minutes you play, the less efficient you are, on a per minute basis. You just can't keep the pedal to the metal for 40 NBA minutes. Duncan plays about 34 minutes, and Manu about 27-28.

[meta2007]

In fact, Manu is a very efficient player!

He only played 27.5 min per game. Otherwise, his statis would be much higher.

He is the no.1 guard in FIBA. He was the SG in FIBA World Championship 2002 All-Tournament Team, 2006 All-Tournament Team, and in 2004 Ideal Olympics Team.


Funny list....the usual suspects.....I wouldn't rank Manu that high regardless of the list...does he even start for the spurs? I know he comes off the bench a lot and plays agains the secondary more often than the top guys. Still he's a top notch player, but Top 5 SG's he's not. No disrespect though.

[Medvedenko]

#1 gaurd in fiba or nba is Kobe.....let's not kid ourselves.....

[meta2007]

# 1 gaurd in FIBA is Kobe? Why?


#1 gaurd in fiba or nba is Kobe.....let's not kid ourselves.....

[Medvedenko]

Considering Kobe has now played international ball, he's #1....is he the most celebrated, not yet, but today he's #1.

[meta2007]

That's just your subjective feeling or expectation. If you think Kobe is the #1, you need to give his statis or achivements in FIBA to prove.


Considering Kobe has now played international ball, he's #1....is he the most celebrated, not yet, but today he's #1.

[duncan228]

#1 gaurd in fiba or nba is Kobe.....let's not kid ourselves.....

This list is about efficiency. Read the intro that tells how they're being measured.
Then this makes sense:

8. Kobe Bryant, Los Angeles Lakers
Points: 31.6 Rebounds: 5.7 Assists: 5.4 Net PER: +14.3 On/Off: +7.6

Some may wonder why Kobe isn't higher on this list. His overall production is certainly top-notch, but the Lakers don't suffer as much without him on the floor as one might think. The Lakers a one-man team? I think not.

[exstatic]

Considering Kobe has now played international ball, he's #1....is he the most celebrated, not yet, but today he's #1.
And what has he done in FIBA ball? Manu has Olympic Gold and WC Silver....

[Trainwreck2100]

Kobe>Manu I like Manu, but that's all Medvedenko is trying to say.

[meta2007]

For me, Manu > Kobe.


Kobe>Manu I like Manu, but that's all Medvedenko is trying to say.

[ducks]

For me, Manu > Kobe.
and you are a spur and manu homer
manu is a better teamate but kobe>manu

[meta2007]

Manu: one Olympics gold and one world silver in FIBA.
three titles in NBA.

Kobe: three titles in NBA.

Manu is a winner in different levels of games. He is the no.1 sg in FIBA. This is a fact that the whole world know.

Why don't I think Manu > Kobe?



and you are a spur and manu homer
manu is a better teamate but kobe>manu

[ducks]

do you actually think any gm or owner would pick manu over kobe if those two were the choice ?

[meta2007]

Actually, I do.


do you actually think any gm or owner would pick manu over kobe if those two were the choice ?

[ducks]

Actually, I do.
wow
is all I got to stay

[WalterBenitez]

He's a Spurs fan . . . so maybe he was, I dunno, being IRONIC?

Yeap, but ... to read an irony he would probably need a brain :rolleyes

[FromWayDowntown]

wow
is all I got to stay

Agreed.

If the Lakers offered Kobe for Manu straight up tomorrow, I think Pop would probably start figuring out ways to thank Manu for his service in San Antonio while wishing him luck in Los Angeles.

That said, the discussion has definitely strayed from the original point -- I don't see that it's all that remarkable that Ginobili might be among the more efficient players in the league.

[meta2007]

I think you are not Pop.


Agreed.

If the Lakers offered Kobe for Manu straight up tomorrow, I think Pop would probably start figuring out ways to thank Manu for his service in San Antonio while wishing him luck in Los Angeles.

That said, the discussion has definitely strayed from the original point -- I don't see that it's all that remarkable that Ginobili might be among the more efficient players in the league.

[YODA]

Gotta give my 2 cents on the Kobe versus Manu. obviously, Kobe is the more athletic player, but who would you want to take a last second shot or create a play for a teammate? For a last second shot, Id go with Kobe, easily the better shooter, but for either to make a shot or create a shot for a teammate on a last play of the game ill take Manu. Kobe would force the shot, while Manu would be willing to give the ball up for the good of the team. Just my cents worth.

Yoda

[Medvedenko]

Yoda, not watch basketball I say.....

[Sense]

I think if Manu plays like in 2005 he pretty much owns Kobe... he's slowed down because of the risky way he plays so he could play longer in the NBA...

There's a reason Manu is Kobe's favorite player..

I too think that Kobe>Manu..

But if Manu miraculously cant get as easily hurt with his style of play.. he's better than Kobe..... there's alot of if's...

Manu is winning and thats all that matters to him atm... if he would've gone to denver.. i can't imagine him not getting 20+ ppg and be put in the same sentence as bryant..

[mystargtr34]

lol is there another Kobe Bryant that i dont know of in this league?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Whoever thinks Manu > Kobe is insane. If we're talking straight up trade as in one for the other and nothing else, Pop would help Manu pack his bags, drive him up to LA gift rapped with a little bow on the top... COME ON PEOPLE!

God knows I love Manu, and if we were still talking about 2005 playoffs Manu then I could understand, but 2006-2007 Manu is nowhere near Kobe

[SRJ]

This is very interesting.

Kobe is a huge talent, the best one-on-one perimeter scorer in the world today, one of the five best scorers to ever play - and yet his three years as a centerpiece to a franchise have been unremarkable in terms of team success. Basically, Kobe is Dominique Wilkins now.

There's no way to measure intangibles, obviously, but I believe Kobe has more negative intangibles than the other guys on this list. His talent is so big that if he was available to your team, you'd have to snap him up - but I would be very uneasy about it, kind of like acquiring TO or Randy Moss in football.

Personally, I liked Kobe's game of the 2000 season the best. He could score at will, just as he does now, but he seemed then to be more of an all-around player than he is now.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

I think you are not Pop.
I think you are not smart.

[urunobili]

#1 gaurd in fiba or nba is Kobe.....let's not kid ourselves.....
what has he won so far? a outnament where nobody gave the US competition because it didn;t worth to waste energy to focus and their next real opponent?

[meta2007]

You mean you are Pop???


I think you are not smart.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

You mean you are Pop???
Yes.

[meta2007]

How can you be so sure I am from argentina?


typical argentinina homerism

we all know how good manu Used to be and how good he is against non-NBA players

[meta2007]

Nice to meet you!


Yes.

[smeagol]

Isn't this thread about efficiency?

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Nice to meet you!
Nice to meet you too.

[Obstructed_View]

#1 gaurd in fiba or nba is Kobe.....let's not kid ourselves.....
Orly?

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q228/GeneralPurpose/Spurstalk/TopFibaGuard.jpg

If that's not convincing, there's always those first round playoff exits or the scintillating fourth quarter disappearances by Kobe in the NBA.

I wouldn't put Manu before Kobe either, but let's at least wait until Kobe's won something in international ball before putting him up there with the all time greats. Professionally, Manu has done exactly what Kobe has done: win three rings with a dominant post player, but Manu's got some success in international tournaments in something other than qualifying rounds. If winning is the name of the game, then Kobe's got some skins to earn to put himself quantifiably ahead of Manu.

Or perhaps Kobe should change his FIBA number to 81 just to remind everyone why he gets so much respect that he clearly doesn't deserve.

[Fast Dunk]

Hahahahahaha

From the official site (NBA.com)


http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Efficiency.jsp?league=00&conf=OVERALL&----=0&splitType=9splitScope=GAME&qualified=N&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=All%20Teams


PLAYER NAME, TEAM NAME GP MPG PTS EFF RPG APG STPG BLKPG EFF48M EFF
1 Kevin Garnett , MIN 76 39.2 22.4 29.2 12.8 4.1 1.2 1.66 35.53 29.17
2 Kobe Bryant , LAL 77 40.7 31.6 27.6 5.7 5.4 1.4 0.47 32.55 27.65
3 Dwyane Wade , MIA 51 37.5 27.4 27.1 4.7 7.5 2.1 1.22 34.25 27.06
4 Dirk Nowitzki , DAL 78 36.8 24.6 26.9 8.9 3.4 0.7 0.8 35.71 26.9
5 Ming Yao , HOU 48 32.7 25.0 25.8 9.4 2.0 0.4 1.96 36.63 25.81
6 Carlos Boozer , UTA 74 34.6 20.9 25.8 11.7 3.0 0.9 0.28 35.86 25.81
7 LeBron James , CLE 78 40.9 27.3 25.6 6.7 6.0 1.6 0.7 30.05 25.6
8 Pau Gasol , MEM 59 35.4 20.8 25.5 9.8 3.4 0.5 2.14 33.85 25.49
9 Tim Duncan , SAS 80 33.9 20.0 25.4 10.6 3.4 0.8 2.38 35.76 25.39
10 Chris Bosh , TOR 69 38.5 22.6 25.3 10.7 2.5 0.6 1.3 31.59 25.35
11 Elton Brand , LAC 80 38.4 20.5 25.0 9.3 2.9 1.0 2.24 31.18 24.99
12 Steve Nash , PHX 76 35.1 18.6 24.5 3.5 11.6 0.8 0.08 33.32 24.5
13 Gilbert Arenas , WAS 74 39.0 28.4 24.2 4.6 6.0 1.9 0.18 29.19 24.18
14 Shawn Marion , PHX 80 37.4 17.5 24.1 9.8 1.7 2.0 1.52 30.76 24.11
15 Amare Stoudemire , PHX 82 32.7 20.4 23.4 9.6 1.0 1.0 1.34 34.29 23.43
16 Carmelo Anthony , DEN 65 37.3 28.9 23.3 6.0 3.8 1.2 0.34 29.28 23.32
17 Dwight Howard , ORL 82 36.2 17.6 23.1 12.3 1.9 0.9 1.9 30.08 23.11
18 Marcus Camby , DEN 70 33.3 11.2 23.0 11.7 3.2 1.2 3.3 32.66 23.04
19 Vince Carter , NJN 82 38.3 25.2 22.7 6.0 4.8 1.0 0.37 28.62 22.73
20 Zach Randolph , POR 68 35.7 23.6 22.4 10.1 2.2 0.8 0.22 30.15 22.4
21 Jason Kidd , NJN 80 36.9 13.0 22.2 8.2 9.2 1.6 0.29 29.11 22.24
22 Emeka Okafor , CHA 67 34.7 14.4 21.7 11.3 1.2 0.9 2.57 29.93 21.67
23 Ray Allen , SEA 55 39.7 26.4 21.6 4.5 4.1 1.5 0.2 25.74 21.64
24 Baron Davis , GSW 63 35.2 20.1 21.4 4.4 8.1 2.1 0.46 29.13 21.4
25 Rashard Lewis , SEA 60 38.7 22.4 21.3 6.6 2.4 1.1 0.65 26.17 21.33
26 Tracy McGrady , HOU 71 35.5 24.6 21.3 5.3 6.5 1.3 0.51 28.6 21.31
27 Allen Iverson , DEN-PHI 65 42.4 26.3 21.2 3.0 7.2 1.9 0.2 24.01 21.25
28 Chris Paul , NOK 64 37.1 17.2 21.2 4.4 8.9 1.8 0.05 27.7 21.22
29 Paul Pierce , BOS 47 36.4 25.0 21.1 5.9 4.1 1.0 0.28 27.42 21.15
30 Lamar Odom , LAL 56 39.1 15.9 21.1 9.8 4.8 0.9 0.57 25.76 21.11
31 Jermaine O'Neal , IND 69 35.1 19.4 21.0 9.6 2.4 0.7 2.64 28.29 21.0
32 Al Jefferson , BOS 69 33.5 16.0 21.0 11.0 1.3 0.7 1.54 29.93 20.96
33 Caron Butler , WAS 63 38.6 19.1 20.7 7.4 3.7 2.1 0.27 25.3 20.7
34 Michael Redd , MIL 53 38.1 26.7 20.1 3.7 2.3 1.2 0.17 25.16 20.13
35 Andre Iguodala , PHI 76 40.2 18.2 20.1 5.7 5.7 2.0 0.43 23.97 20.12
36 Gerald Wallace , CHA 72 36.6 18.1 20.1 7.2 2.6 2.0 0.96 26.32 20.11
37 Luol Deng , CHI 82 37.5 18.8 20.1 7.1 2.5 1.2 0.58 25.74 20.08
38 Josh Smith , ATL 72 37.2 16.4 20.0 8.6 3.3 1.4 2.88 26.11 20.0
39 Antawn Jamison , WAS 70 37.4 19.8 19.9 8.0 1.9 1.1 0.51 25.07 19.86
40 Joe Johnson , ATL 57 41.0 25.0 19.8 4.2 4.4 1.1 0.19 22.93 19.77
41 Chauncey Billups , DET 70 35.7 17.0 19.6 3.4 7.2 1.2 0.24 26.01 19.61
42 Tyson Chandler , NOK 73 34.7 9.5 19.6 12.4 .9 0.5 1.77 27.16 19.58
43 David West , NOK 52 36.2 18.2 19.5 8.1 2.2 0.8 0.73 25.62 19.5
44 Ron Artest , SAC 70 38.4 18.8 19.4 6.5 3.4 2.1 0.61 24.74 19.44
45 David Lee , NYK 58 28.7 10.7 19.2 10.4 1.8 0.8 0.4 30.96 19.21
46 Deron Williams , UTA 80 37.0 16.2 18.7 3.3 9.3 1.0 0.16 24.34 18.7
47 Josh Howard , DAL 70 36.4 18.9 18.6 6.8 1.8 1.2 0.8 25.51 18.64
48 Mike Miller , MEM 70 38.1 18.5 18.2 5.4 4.3 0.8 0.26 22.34 18.21
49 Kevin Martin , SAC 80 35.4 20.2 18.2 4.3 2.2 1.2 0.14 24.8 18.2
50 Tony Parker , SAS 77 32.4 18.6 18.1 3.2 5.5 1.1 0.08 26.78 18.1
Displaying results 1-50 of 441 found
Results: 1-50 51-100 101-150 151-200 201-250 251-300 301-350 351-400 401-441 Next »

[Fast Dunk]

Isn't this thread about efficiency?



http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Efficiency.jsp?league=00&conf=OVERALL&----=0&splitType=9splitScope=GAME&qualified=N&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=All%20Teams

[exstatic]

Hahahahahaha

From the official site (NBA.com)

Spur haters get owned... (http://www.nba.com/finals2007/)

[Fast Dunk]

Hahahahahaha

From the official site (NBA.com)

Spur haters get owned... (http://www.nba.com/finals2007/)

This thread is about Player efficency and I once again have owned Spurs fans by posting OFFICIAL statistics not Hoopsworld garbage...

Whats's your point posting a NBA Finals link?

[Fast Dunk]

And the funny thing is that Ginobili doesnt even make the top 50

Duncan is ranked # 9

Parker # 50

Ginobili # 56

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

And the funny thing is that Ginobili doesnt even make the top 50

Duncan is ranked # 9

Parker # 50

Ginobili # 56
#7 Lebron James



That's it.

[exstatic]

If you look at the Hoopsworld thing, louis, you'll see that it's an amalgam of both your efficiency, AND the efficiency of the player you're matched against. That's why they use Net PER and not just the PER stat. No one plays in a gym by themselves.

[Fast Dunk]

Stupid formulas just like that guy from ESPN who used some idiotic formula to make his power rankings having the Spurs @ 1 all season long..

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Stupid formulas just like that guy from ESPN who used some idiotic formula to make his power rankings having the Spurs @ 1 all season long..
And he was right.

[FromWayDowntown]

Stupid formulas just like that guy from ESPN who used some idiotic formula to make his power rankings having the Spurs @ 1 all season long..

That's not exactly a stong argument for your side. Particularly because the guy whose power rankings ultimately proved right is also the guy who created the PER statistic that forms the basis for the analysis in this thread.

[Hemotivo]

And he was right.
:lol :clap

[meta2007]

Spur fans are so lovely!!! :downspin:

[Obstructed_View]

Stupid formulas just like that guy from ESPN who used some idiotic formula to make his power rankings having the Spurs @ 1 all season long..
Who won the championship again? Sounds like the formula worked.

[porscha]

:toast Manu Manu I love you :toast

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Kobe great player of amazing his ability to make scoring plays away from basket. I think he to selfish player.

Even be such great player he act not in team concepts.

Manu player who always act in best team concepts.

If I have team around with other good player like Spurs I rather have Manu.

If I have team of all sucks and need star player I rather have Kobe.

This be why Lakers have sucks players excpets Odom and even he not work in games good with Kobe and then just Kobe instead other great player and how Kobe lead them many win. But also how he keep them from more because selfish wants to be only star :rolleyes

This also why Manu helps Spurs wins so much. He just do whatever to win. Not care even starts or not.

If I plays one versus one or 2 verus 2 game I picks Kobe.

But 5 versus 5 I picks Manu.

Also I picks Manu for FIBA because he true leader and just play to win but Kobe always play to be star and have something to proves.

Kobe better player obvious of skill and talent unquestion but he not as much good team concept and help player as manu because poor attitudes and manu excel very much in this.

Manu still very good player of skill and talent but just not so much compares Kobe.

[ShoogarBear]

Oh, snap.

Pau Gasol > Tim Duncan.

We are owned again.

[E20]

Spurs >>>>>>>>>>>>> THE UNIVERSE!!!!!!!

[Summers]

Oh, snap.

Pau Gasol > Tim Duncan.

We are owned again.

:lmao

(I thought we had a smilie that spits his drink out on the monitor from laughing... I wanted to put that here)

[Fast Dunk]

Oh, snap.

Pau Gasol > Tim Duncan.

We are owned again.

Maybe not better than Tim Duncan but statisticly more Efficient YES!

[barbacoataco]

Kobe is a greater talent than Manu, but if you are measuring EFFICIENCY it is a lot closer. Manu does what he does coming off the bench, with Parker and Duncan also taking a lot of shots. Kobe needs and demands a lot of touches to play his game. According to most sources, he forced Shaq to be traded so he could be the #1 player on the team. He takes far more shots than anyone else on his team, and likes it that way. Efficiency means-- how productive can you be while using the least resources possible. In this type of discussion I am not surprised that Manu rates higher than people expect.

[ShoogarBear]

Maybe not better than Tim Duncan but statisticly more Efficient YES!Maybe?

So there's still hope for us!!

:elephant:elephant:elephant:elephant

[Fast Dunk]

Yeah there's hope.

[anakha]

Yeah there's hope.

And the point flies right over louis's head...

[Deimosfobos]

Stupid formulas just like that guy from ESPN who used some idiotic formula to make his power rankings having the Spurs @ 1 all season long..

You just owned yourself in one sentence... amazing. :lol

[smeagol]

Louis is the poster that resembles the most LakerGod.

Stupidity in its purest form.

[hater]

"this is a dirty list" - Amare

[LilMissSPURfect]

"this is a dirty list" - Amare


http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b4/gulygeek/pix289.jpg

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b4/gulygeek/r2884998388.jpg

[Obstructed_View]

FD can't be louis, he hasn't used the term "mermaid" yet.

[CPspursfan]

Sorted by per 48 mins - Kobe is 12 and Manu is 17 so it is a lot closer than the per game stats.

[zepn]

In this age of salary caps, Manu's efficiency per contract dollar serves the Spurs much better than Kobe would.

[Obstructed_View]

Considering the people the Spurs would either have to get rid of or be unable to retain while burdened by Kobe's salary, I'd take Manu 100 times out of 100.

[Medvedenko]

Than you my friend are an idiot.....you put Kobe, Parker and TD you don't lose.....

Trying to compare a bench player who has had probably one decent all-star calibre year to the second best SG in the history of the game is laughable at best. I hear all of....well Manu is a better teammate, Kobe's too selfish blahblabh....replace Manu and Kobe on this laker team and where do they go when their star SG Manu can't even play 40 min's per game without getting hurt.....I'm sure he can be a good team guy in the locker room, even though they'd lose 60 games. Man this is hillarious, still I guess I had it coming.....You saw how Kobe deferred his game during the 3 peat when Shaq dominated the ball...you saw how Kobe played on the USA team, playing solid D, playing within himself.....

....and to the guy that compared Barbosa's stats to Kobe's during Fiba's needs to have get his money back from that botched lobotomy job....

Let's also throw per 48 minute stats....pure garbage...if Manu can play at a high level for more than 40 minutes like he shows sometimes, than he's on par with Kobe's average games at best.

Stop the insanity, please.....

[meta2007]

I highly doubt whether Kobe can be sucessful outside of lakers. He is what he is now because he is a laker.

In contrast, Manu is a winner in different situations, even he came off bench.

In addiiton, 'manu cannot play 40 min.' is a joke.



Than you my friend are an idiot.....you put Kobe, Parker and TD you don't lose.....

Trying to compare a bench player who has had probably one decent all-star calibre year to the second best SG in the history of the game is laughable at best. I hear all of....well Manu is a better teammate, Kobe's too selfish blahblabh....replace Manu and Kobe on this laker team and where do they go when their star SG Manu can't even play 40 min's per game without getting hurt.....I'm sure he can be a good team guy in the locker room, even though they'd lose 60 games. Man this is hillarious, still I guess I had it coming.....You saw how Kobe deferred his game during the 3 peat when Shaq dominated the ball...you saw how Kobe played on the USA team, playing solid D, playing within himself.....

....and to the guy that compared Barbosa's stats to Kobe's during Fiba's needs to have get his money back from that botched lobotomy job....

Let's also throw per 48 minute stats....pure garbage...if Manu can play at a high level for more than 40 minutes like he shows sometimes, than he's on par with Kobe's average games at best.

Stop the insanity, please.....

[Obstructed_View]

Than you my friend are an idiot.....you put Kobe, Parker and TD you don't lose.....

Trying to compare a bench player who has had probably one decent all-star calibre year to the second best SG in the history of the game is laughable at best. I hear all of....well Manu is a better teammate, Kobe's too selfish blahblabh....replace Manu and Kobe on this laker team and where do they go when their star SG Manu can't even play 40 min's per game without getting hurt.....I'm sure he can be a good team guy in the locker room, even though they'd lose 60 games. Man this is hillarious, still I guess I had it coming.....You saw how Kobe deferred his game during the 3 peat when Shaq dominated the ball...you saw how Kobe played on the USA team, playing solid D, playing within himself.....

....and to the guy that compared Barbosa's stats to Kobe's during Fiba's needs to have get his money back from that botched lobotomy job....

Let's also throw per 48 minute stats....pure garbage...if Manu can play at a high level for more than 40 minutes like he shows sometimes, than he's on par with Kobe's average games at best.

Stop the insanity, please.....
First off, you know Manu isn't a bench player, and the fact that you'd stretch the truth to try to make your case proves that it isn't as strong as you'd like. Funny that you'd credit Kobe for deferring his game to Shaq, but Manu gets no credit for doing the same with Duncan, though he's achieved the exact same success.

Actually, Barbosa had better stats than Kobe for the tournament. Not exactly a convincing case to be made that Kobe's the #1 FIBA player, which is exactly what you said. The fact that he's number one in your heart or on your bedspread doesn't mean much in the real world, where Manu has won a gold medal and was named tournament MVP.

Is Kobe more talented? Sure. Is he more athletic? No doubt. Does he score more points? Of course. Wake me when Kobe isn't so busy playing within himself that he shows up and wins a playoff series without Shaq to bail him out. Just because he walks and talks like Jordan doesn't make him Jordan.

[Medvedenko]

Oh...and he also plays better D than Manu, can play the entire game at a high level and had multiple years as the best SG in the world. Now you're still comparing Barbosa's stats to Kobe's....what about that head to head game they played in Fiba...also look at the fricken minutes Barbosa played in the tournament compared to Kobe. You put Kobe on that Brazil team with him playing heavy minutes and you have an entirely different story....once again...you compare 2 bench players Barbosa and Manu to Kobe....too funny.

Oh, I love Manu, stated this numerous times on this forum, but he can't consistently hold a candle to Kobe. He defintitely gets kudos from me for helping the spurs and is part of a great team with a great system. You put him as the star and only option on a NBA team, and they would be bottom dwellers every year. Why can't any of you people see this.

Oh, and you must of not watched those games when it was Kobe bailing shaq out during the playoffs versus your mighty spurs.

[meta2007]

I cannot see why Kobe is that great as you think. After Shaq left, he never passed the 1st round.

In fact, I don't think you know Kobe very well. Otherwise, you should have known that Kobe not only wants a ring, more importantly, he wants a MVP award. In other words, he wants to win a title under his leading. Spurs is not a right team for him. He has 3 rings already, and won't be willing to do anything just for a ring. This is the reason why he wanted to be traded to Bulls this summer. Bulls is a good team and no superstar now. In addition, Bulls in east, it is much easier for him to get into finals.

BWT, without a doubt, Manu has ability to be a starter. But for the whole team, he is willing to come off bench. This is one reason why I respect him so much!


Oh...and he also plays better D than Manu, can play the entire game at a high level and had multiple years as the best SG in the world. Now you're still comparing Barbosa's stats to Kobe's....what about that head to head game they played in Fiba...also look at the fricken minutes Barbosa played in the tournament compared to Kobe. You put Kobe on that Brazil team with him playing heavy minutes and you have an entirely different story....once again...you compare 2 bench players Barbosa and Manu to Kobe....too funny.

Oh, I love Manu, stated this numerous times on this forum, but he can't consistently hold a candle to Kobe. He defintitely gets kudos from me for helping the spurs and is part of a great team with a great system. You put him as the star and only option on a NBA team, and they would be bottom dwellers every year. Why can't any of you people see this.

Oh, and you must of not watched those games when it was Kobe bailing shaq out during the playoffs versus your mighty spurs.

[Medvedenko]

Like I said I respect Manu....great team guy for all I know...

Show me another 1 man all-star team in the West doing any better than Kobe.

[Reggie Miller]

Considering the people the Spurs would either have to get rid of or be unable to retain while burdened by Kobe's salary, I'd take Manu 100 times out of 100.

You sir, took the words right out of my mouth.

You don't need the best SG in the world (and his max contract) to win. In the grand scheme of basketball, having the best guard is not as important as having a dominant front court. At the #2 guard, the disparity of talent between a replacement level player and the best is not as significant as it would be with the big men. If you have a Duncan or Shaq, you don't necessarily need Kobe. What you need are role players better than Medvedenko and Pargo.

I wouldn't seriously debate that Manu>Kobe in terms of pure basketball talent/skills, but Manu's contract and efficiency make him more valuable to a championship team than Kobe.

[Reggie Miller]

Like I said I respect Manu....great team guy for all I know...

Show me another 1 man all-star team in the West doing any better than Kobe.


Actually, Hollinger's statistical analysis demonstrates that the Lakers' problem is not Kobe's teammates, but the entire team's decision to file for conscientious objector status on defense.

[meta2007]

As Kobe's fan, you should go to Bulls' forum to promote him.


Like I said I respect Manu....great team guy for all I know...

Show me another 1 man all-star team in the West doing any better than Kobe.

[Obstructed_View]

Oh...and he also plays better D than Manu, can play the entire game at a high level and had multiple years as the best SG in the world. Um, Manu's won a gold medal and three NBA titles in that same time. Hopefully that "best SG in the world" trophy keeps Kobe warm at night.


Now you're still comparing Barbosa's stats to Kobe's....what about that head to head game they played in Fiba...also look at the fricken minutes Barbosa played in the tournament compared to Kobe. You put Kobe on that Brazil team with him playing heavy minutes and you have an entirely different story....once again...you compare 2 bench players Barbosa and Manu to Kobe....too funny. Again, when Kobe has stats to back up your claim that he's the "#1 player in FIBA", or at least something more than a win in the Americas tournament that Manu didn't even bother to show up for, let me know.


Oh, I love Manu, stated this numerous times on this forum, but he can't consistently hold a candle to Kobe. He defintitely gets kudos from me for helping the spurs and is part of a great team with a great system. You put him as the star and only option on a NBA team, and they would be bottom dwellers every year. Why can't any of you people see this.

Oh, and you must of not watched those games when it was Kobe bailing shaq out during the playoffs versus your mighty spurs.

I love Kobe, he's a great scorer and an incredible athlete. He's fun to watch and he can light it up like nobody I've ever seen, but he can't consistently hold a candle to Manu. He definitely gets kudos from me for helping the Lakers when they had Shaq and dismantled a great team with a great system. You put him on a team loaded with playoff performers, and he might win, otherwise his teams are going to be lucky to make the playoffs relying on him. Why can't you see this.

Oh, and you must not have watched those games when it was Manu showing up to bail the team out during championship runs, even those versus your mighty Kobe.

[Medvedenko]

I have great respect for Manu.....just can't compare him....
I guess Scola is better than Dwight Howard and Amare as he had better stats.....

[meta2007]

If Scola can translate his games to NBA, and win titles with Rockets. Why not?

Honestly, I don't think Dwight or Amare is very good in low post. From FIBA Americans, I can exactly see why Shaq said that Duncan, Yao, and himself are the best men in low post.



I guess Scola is better than Dwight Howard and Amare as he had better stats.....

[SuperManu!!!]

Where's parker?

[barbacoataco]

LOL at kobe being the 2nd greatest SG in NBA history. He has never won a RS or Finals MVP. While he is a great all around baller, Kobe's limitations are mental, and at the highest level that is a big part of what separates the men from the boys. At this point in his career Kobe is Dominique Wilkins. The question will continue to be whether Kobe is more concerned with winning a Championship or another scoring title.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

wait a sec... is anyone really arguing that Manu is better than Kobe?? are people that delusional? I mean, perhaps if you take into account salary/talent, as in Manu provides more bang for the buck sort of speak. However, in a straight out comparison between the two, Kobe is the better one by far.

Manu is my favorite player, but anyone that has seen him play the last two seasons knows that Manu gets shut down far too often. It is as if the league caught on to his methods and figured out how to counter. 2005 Manu seems a far away memory right now, and the only way you can even begin to compare Manu to Kobe is by remembering how Manu was back then.

I still have hope though, against my better judgment, that Manu will remember how to play ball like we know he can.

[MagnusKrauss]

kobe is great. he can score. he can steal. he can defend. he can shoot. he can dunk. he can do everything.

unfortunately, basketball is a team sport. right now, he is invaluable to his team. but his team would benefit more if kobe's contract was somewhere else. they could then afford *five* good players instead of having one incredible player and four *others*.

manu on the other hand, is an extremely good team player. he has all the skills kobe has, but you won't catch manu forcing a three-ball if somebody else has a better position to shoot. maybe that's why people think manu is less skilled than kobe. manu doesn't have to have the ball all the time. he doesn't have to score all the time. he doesn't have to run all the plays all the time.

the argument here is that kobe is more efficient than manu. i don't think so. kobe plays so many minutes where he has the ball. not his teammates. you'd think that since he creates so many points during those minutes it automatically makes him an efficient player. but manu doesn't have to play like that since he has other options available to him. he can pass the ball. kobe on the other hand, can pass to....

moneywise, manu is better than kobe. skillwise, i'd like to think of them as being equal. teamplay and chemistry-wise, manu is better than kobe. and as for efficiency. who makes the most out of his resources? manu does. kobe, not as much.

so. if you base your arguments on the past season, manu>kobe (for efficiency). if you base your arguments on the past FIBA season, there can be no comparison. manu didn't even play, and kobe played with people he will never play with in the NBA.

-----------------------------

magnusdrakenkrauss

[SequSpur]

How is playing out of control and making passes to charter members called efficiency?

Uh, am I missing something?

[ducks]

How is playing out of control and making passes to charter members called efficiency?

Uh, am I missing something?
you are missing brains

:smokin

[MaNuMaNiAc]

kobe is great. he can score. he can steal. he can defend. he can shoot. he can dunk. he can do everything.

unfortunately, basketball is a team sport. right now, he is invaluable to his team. but his team would benefit more if kobe's contract was somewhere else. they could then afford *five* good players instead of having one incredible player and four *others*.

manu on the other hand, is an extremely good team player. he has all the skills kobe has, but you won't catch manu forcing a three-ball if somebody else has a better position to shoot. maybe that's why people think manu is less skilled than kobe. manu doesn't have to have the ball all the time. he doesn't have to score all the time. he doesn't have to run all the plays all the time.

the argument here is that kobe is more efficient than manu. i don't think so. kobe plays so many minutes where he has the ball. not his teammates. you'd think that since he creates so many points during those minutes it automatically makes him an efficient player. but manu doesn't have to play like that since he has other options available to him. he can pass the ball. kobe on the other hand, can pass to....

moneywise, manu is better than kobe. skillwise, i'd like to think of them as being equal. teamplay and chemistry-wise, manu is better than kobe. and as for efficiency. who makes the most out of his resources? manu does. kobe, not as much.

so. if you base your arguments on the past season, manu>kobe (for efficiency). if you base your arguments on the past FIBA season, there can be no comparison. manu didn't even play, and kobe played with people he will never play with in the NBA.

-----------------------------

magnusdrakenkrauss
I agree with most of this. Except with the bolded part. How can you say they are equal skillwise. I mean the only way this whole comparison makes any sense is by taking into account what Manu brings for the amount he gets paid. Kobe is the more skilled of the two

[MagnusKrauss]

in my opinion (please note that i said opinion) yes, they are both equally skilled. skillset = equal.

manu *could* force a three-ball with a hand and body in his face. it would just be against his better judgement. which is why he rarely does this, i think. he could perform even better acrobatics when he's slashing his way to the rim (he must take up yoga, i think) but he doesn't take shots like kobe does because it's not the way he does things.

but of course, it's just my opinion. :)

------------------------

magnusdrakenkrauss

[TheAuthority]

Um, Kobe was not even the best player on his team in the FIBA americas tourney. LeBron was, by far.