Harvey: Next Manu? If the option wasn't foreign

[timvp]

Buck Harvey: Next Manu? If the option wasn't foreign
Buck Harvey
San Antonio Express-News

They are about the same height. They were also about the same age when the Spurs drafted them in the same round.

And?

That's about it.

Manu Ginobili, 21 years old in 1999, thought playing in Europe was a great life.

The Spurs' second-round draft pick this year has other dreams.

Today, less than a week before training camp opens, this is what passes as a Spurs issue. The Suns don't know what to do with Shawn Marion, who wants out of Phoenix, and the Spurs don't know what to do with Marcus Williams, who likely won't play an NBA minute this season.

Still, something that seems small can become big. It did with Ginobili. The Spurs used a draft pick on him that was 24 slots lower than the one they used on Williams last June, and Ginobili worked out all right.

Williams, going by draft status alone, shows more than Ginobili did at the same age. Williams has long arms that extend his 6-foot-7 frame, and he's an exceptional ball handler for his size. Better yet for a Gregg Popovich team, his defensive instincts are such that Arizona put him on the other team's best perimeter scorer.

Williams might have been a first-round selection had he left school after his freshman season. But shooting yips robbed him of confidence and status; he shot 28.8 percent from the college 3-point line last season.

He was as awful in summer-league play for the Spurs. But as it was with Tony Parker before, Williams is allowing the Spurs' shooting specialist, Chip Engelland, to take apart his jump shot. He's been among the first to arrive at the practice facility, and he's impressed the Spurs this summer with his attitude.

That said, he's years away. So what's the best career path?

His agent has been in San Antonio and leaves this morning, which is why a contract might get done now. If that happens, Williams would count as the 15th and final roster spot even if the Spurs send him to their Austin development-league team.

The Spurs would still retain their rights if they don't sign him, but they would have no control of his development-league destination. Williams could be allocated to another team a thousand miles away, meaning he wouldn't be part of the Spurs' system that will be implemented in Austin; that also means he would be far away from Engelland.

But what about going even farther away? Why not remain unsigned and grow in Europe as Ginobili did, as well as Fab Oberto, Bruce Bowen, Cisco Elson and Ime Udoka? Why not be patient, earn more money, see the world — and learn how to win tough, emotional games?

For Ginobili, playing in Europe was a goal. The Spurs drafted him after he had played there for a year, and they didn't have to talk him into staying. Neither was sure he would become an NBA player.

Then, with each passing year, Ginobili added layer upon layer. When he arrived in San Antonio as a 25-year-old man, he was ready to compete for playing time and a title.

Williams hesitates to do the same, and it's not because of arrogance. The Spurs' veterans like this down-to-earth kid. He carries himself well.

Instead, this is about familiarity and a personal sense of what is supposed to come next. Williams was so exceptional as a high school recruit that the pros scouted him. He didn't leave Arizona early to play in Spain.

There's also a business incentive for Williams to sign with the Spurs now and take his chances. If cut, his agent would be free to negotiate with 29 other teams.

James White knows how this works. Last year he was drafted 31st, higher than Williams in June, and Indiana cut White. The Spurs picked him up, sent him to Austin, nurtured him — then cut him this summer.

White is really free now. He isn't scheduled to be in any training camp next week.

Now it is Williams' turn. He would rather go to an NBA team with no room for him because, well, it's still the NBA.

Europe?

Some second-round draft picks have played there.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA092707.01C.buck_harvey.en.34316f5.html

[Kori Ellis]

White is really free now. He isn't scheduled to be in any training camp next week.

That's kind of odd that he didn't even get a camp invite.

[Kori Ellis]

Oh.. and as for Marcus Williams, he should go to Europe if he can get on one of the better teams with decent coaching and decent playing time. Otherwise, the DLeague is a good option. (Though the money would be next to nothing in DLeague.)

[timvp]

Another year, another blatant Buck Harvey rip of a timvp post (http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1976470&postcount=2).

But hey, I'll accept anything from the Express-News these days. It's like they forgot the Spurs existed.

[Dalamar_the_Dark]

That's kind of odd that he didn't even get a camp invite.

Maybe the rest of the 29 teams have wisened up and realised that when the Spurs cut a low salary player, the player probably sucks. :lol

[Bruno]

The Spurs would still retain their rights if they don't sign him

It's kinda a misleading way to present the situation.

The reality is more "The Spurs would still retain their rights if Williams doesn't decide to sign with them".
Williams is in the driver seat, not Spurs. It's up to him to decide where he will sign and I don't why he would choose to sign in Europe/nbdl over signing with Spurs.

Anyway, we will have soon the answer given that training camp invite players should be known today or tomorrow.

[ChumpDumper]

Who else are we going to sign at this point? Put him in Austin for half the season, cut him if there is no improvement.

[timvp]

Who else are we going to sign at this point? Put him in Austin for half the season, cut him if there is no improvement.There are actually a lot of decent players still out there. For this time of year, that's rather odd. A bunch of NBA caliber players aren't signed.

That could be another reason why the Spurs are hesitating ... outside of the fact that he sucks.

[ChumpDumper]

There are a lot of restricted free agents who are holding out for an overpayment. That's about all I can see that the Spurs could hope to get. I don't see why the status of other players would be an issue with Williams since he could just be cut from a nonguaranteed deal. Any NBA caliber player with an interest in playing for the Spurs would have to like his chances in beating out Williams, wouldn't he?

[picnroll]

A Spurs article in the Express? I thought the team moved.

[timvp]

There are a lot of restricted free agents who are holding out for an overpayment. That's about all I can see that the Spurs could hope to get. I don't see why the status of other players would be an issue with Williams since he could just be cut from a nonguaranteed deal. Any NBA caliber player with an interest in playing for the Spurs would have to like his chances in beating out Williams, wouldn't he?The issue is Williams likely wouldn't accept a 100% non guaranteed deal. Especially considering players around where he was drafted are getting multiple years fully guaranteed.

If Williams would be willing to sign a totally non guaranteed contract, that would have already taken place. He hasn't been willing and the Spurs don't want to waste money on a player who might get cut in training camp.

As I said earlier, best case is Williams signs in Europe. If that's not going to happen and Williams is going to force the Spurs to sign him, the second best case is signing Williams to a contract with only a small percentage guaranteed.

[ChumpDumper]

Then so long, Marcus.
The issue is Williams likely wouldn't accept a 100% non guaranteed deal. Especially considering players around where he was drafted are getting multiple years fully guaranteed.Those guys don't suck.
If that's not going to happen and Williams is going to force the Spurs to sign him, the second best case is signing Williams to a contract with only a small percentage guaranteed. That's basically what I'm talking about. Players can get paid for training camp. He's an idiot if he thinks he can get much more of a guarantee.

[exstatic]

As I said earlier, best case is Williams signs in Europe. If that's not going to happen and Williams is going to force the Spurs to sign him, the second best case is signing Williams to a contract with only a small percentage guaranteed.
I don't think he can "force" anything, can he? The Spurs can just do nothing and still retain his rights, correct? It's not like he's a first rounder with a guarantee. If he ends up with a different NBDL team, it's not the end of the world. It's not like they would have control over his Euro development, either. Mahinmi's proof of that.

[Solid D]

His agent has been in San Antonio and leaves this morning, which is why a contract might get done now. If that happens, Williams would count as the 15th and final roster spot even if the Spurs send him to their Austin development-league team.

The decision of the Spurs to buy the Toros was supposedly based on working with player scenarios such as this. Invest and develop in an environment you can control.

[AFBlue]

This article speaks more to me about how invested the Spurs are in this kid. They obviously like what they see with his defense, attitude, and potential to improve his game.

Whether there's a better option out there for a 15th player isn't really that important IMO. That person will more than likely never see the court this season, unless the Spurs are 10 games up on everyone and it's the last 2-3 weeks of the season.

So, why not make a longer-term investment in a player that obviously has some game and long-term potential?

Bottom Line: I think the Spurs will ultimately move to keep him and I think that's the right move.

[AFBlue]

As I said earlier, best case is Williams signs in Europe. If that's not going to happen and Williams is going to force the Spurs to sign him, the second best case is signing Williams to a contract with only a small percentage guaranteed.

Disagree with your "best case" assessment. This guy has good defensive ability and a desire to improve his game.

His biggest weakness is obviously his jumpshot, which can be GREATLY improved if he works with Chip Engelland. To me, his best opportunity to do so is to be playing in Austin with the Toros and to be attending as many side-sessions with Chip as possible.

If that means you sign him to a partially guaranteed contract, then so be it.

[Spurs Brazil]

I think the best thing is Williams go to Europe next season

[Darkwaters]

The issue when looking at Williams is not one of this year but rather next. Next season the Spurs only have Ginobili and Udoka contracted to play the wing. Signing Williams would give them a third returning wing player. Unfortunately, he still would likely warrant little more than garbage time 12 months from now. So what is the opportunity cost of signing Marcus Williams? What do you give up to keep Marcus in San Antonio/Austin for sure? Answer: The opportunity to find another contributor to help with the shorter-term problems and plug some of those impending holes in the 08-09 wing rotation. There are several players that the Spurs could snatch up that would likely be quality guys in the rotation within a year. This affords them continuity within the lineup by returning players with established chemistry and time in the system. Also, it gives players their chance at the "Oberto Effect" of watching the first year and playing the second.

Sending Williams to Europe does not expend that resource, it simply displaces it. So, quite simply, the idea of sending Williams to Europe is not at all unlike a two-for-one special. Have a snack now and your meal later.

[Mr. Body]

Marcus Williams for 2nd annual, 2008 Offseason Memorial James White Cuttee Award... or will it be 2009?

I'd rather go for Hassan Adams or another castoff with NBA experience. I know, I know, this Williams seems a nice chap and all. But I'm a nice guy, too, and don't expect the Spurs to sign me.

[SenorSpur]

IMO the Spurs need to make a firm commitment toward developing one of these young players that embodies the type of talent, work ethic and attitude that have become staples of the Spurs culture.

Last year, we thought it was going to be White. He didn't pan out. Now it's Williams. Of course, the jury is still out on him. I agree they shouldn't never keep a guy around with whom they're not sold on. Hell, they should never draft such a guy in the first place. Since the Spurs are historically drafting later in the round, they're likely going to be taking a player that will need a some measure of time and development.

Therefore, either make a commitment toward moving up and drafting a young, hot-shot player in the first round, or simply take the best player available and invest the necessary time, effort, and, dollars that it takes to to develop him - whether it be Williams, Adams or whoever.

This is not to question their drafting process, because they've done well for the most part, over the years. Either way, the Spurs are running out of time. This young-player incubation and indoctrination process for a SF/SG type should have been well underway by now.

[smeagol]

Has Harvey lost it?

[MoSpur]

I honestly think this kid will make it.

[urunobili]

I don't think he can "force" anything, can he? The Spurs can just do nothing and still retain his rights, correct? It's not like he's a first rounder with a guarantee. If he ends up with a different NBDL team, it's not the end of the world. It's not like they would have control over his Euro development, either. Mahinmi's proof of that.

Mahimni didn't have playing time in a bad FRENCH team...

[barbacoataco]

The whole point of buying the Toros was to put young developing players there, while keeping them close to the team, coaches and trainers. It is also a way to sell tickets in Austin by promoting Mahinmi and Williams as future Spurs. I think the Spurs will sign him to the 15th spot and keep him in Austin for most of the year.

[barbacoataco]

Also, why would the Spurs use the 15th spot on a veteran who can contribute now? With the addition of udoka, the Spurs have 13 players they need to squeeze on the 12 man active roster. So barring injuries, the Spurs really don't have room for anyone else to actually get playing time.

[jdaveah]

Wow, Buck Harvey just compared one of my favorite players of all time with one of my least favorite. The man has officially lost it.

[SenorSpur]

The whole point of buying the Toros was to put young developing players there, while keeping them close to the team, coaches and trainers. It is also a way to sell tickets in Austin by promoting Mahinmi and Williams as future Spurs. I think the Spurs will sign him to the 15th spot and keep him in Austin for most of the year.

That is the most logical scenario. I just hope they execute this plan and see it through.

[Darkwaters]

Also, why would the Spurs use the 15th spot on a veteran who can contribute now? With the addition of udoka, the Spurs have 13 players they need to squeeze on the 12 man active roster. So barring injuries, the Spurs really don't have room for anyone else to actually get playing time.


I don't think anybody said the word veteran except you. To Spurs fans that tends to have a negative connotation at times. We're talking about somebody that had a little experience in the league that had been cast off from their team (Hassan Adams) or maybe a DLeague prospect (Justin Bowen). I'm not talking about your atypical Spurs signee (30+, past his prime, ring-seeking) but a young kid thats looking for a fresh start. Don't misunderstand, if you take that route you're not simply seeking established (and diminished) players but rather a gungho kid that could well fit into your long-term plans in addition to Marcus Williams (he'll simply get there quicker...but could very well have a lower potential ceiling that Marcus).

I swear, she should have just drafted DJ Strawberry with the 58th pick and been done with it!

[timvp]

I don't think he can "force" anything, can he? The Spurs can just do nothing and still retain his rights, correct?Incorrect.

You have to offer a contract to a second round pick to retain your rights to that player. So in effect, Williams has control over where he'll end up. He could take the offer from the Spurs, even if the Spurs don't want him to, and force the Spurs to either keep him or waive him so another team can sign him.

That is why the Spurs are hoping he goes to Europe or decides to sign in the D-League. They get to keep their rights to him while at the same time keeping a roster spot open to either sign someone else or save money against the lux tax. But if Williams refuses, the Spurs either have to sign him or release him.

This isn't a Scola or Ginobili situation where the Spurs are in the driver's seat.

[inconvertible]

this is the next manu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNxZ4_O8R8M

[Solid D]

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/images/Marcus-Williams-Spurs0927.jpg

This has all the makings of Chris Carrawell, as we have said before, with the exception of the possible emotional investment that RC personally has with Marcus. RC went to his practices and he has admitted he spent quite a bit of time doing his homework with this kid. My guess is he ends up signing a minimal deal with the Spurs and plays this season in Austin with the view toward a shot to replace Brent next season.

(Carrawell played in the Netherlands last season)

[timvp]

This has all the makings of Chris Carrawell, as we have said before, with the exception of the possible emotional investment that RC personally has with Marcus. Great point.

RC's handpicked players tend to stick around the organization, even if better options show themselves. To examples of that can be found by looking at Derrick Dial and Beno Udrih. Dial was an RC find that not only beat out Carrawell, but also Raja Bell (the player Pop wanted to keep). Udrih has been kept long after almost everyone in town has given up on him.

Carrawell was a Sam Schuler pick. He was such a bad pick that Schuler quietly disappeared after picking him :)

But yeah, Williams has RC in his corner ... and for some reason, that label has more weight than any other label you can have on the Spurs. Beno could show up at training camp at 300 pounds and RC will probably want to extend his contract.

:shootme

[exstatic]

OK, LJ. The kid seems to want some guaranteed money. What happens if the Spurs make him a contract offer, but there is NO guaranteed money, and he doesn't sign it? Do they then retain his rights?

[anakha]

Great point.

RC's handpicked players tend to stick around the organization, even if better options show themselves. To examples of that can be found by looking at Derrick Dial and Beno Udrih. Dial was an RC find that not only beat out Carrawell, but also Raja Bell (the player Pop wanted to keep). Udrih has been kept long after almost everyone in town has given up on him.

Carrawell was a Sam Schuler pick. He was such a bad pick that Schuler quietly disappeared after picking him :)

But yeah, Williams has RC in his corner ... and for some reason, that label has more weight than any other label you can have on the Spurs. Beno could show up at training camp at 300 pounds and RC will probably want to extend his contract.

:shootme

You bring up an interesting point.

Would you know how much input the rest of the Spurs' FO, including Pop, has on draft picks and retaining personnel? How many of the current roster would you directly attribute to RC's decisions, and if it wasn't RC's sole decision, who has the (next) most say in making the call on so-and-so player?

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

this is the next manu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNxZ4_O8R8M

I think you may be right.

[timvp]

OK, LJ. The kid seems to want some guaranteed money. What happens if the Spurs make him a contract offer, but there is NO guaranteed money, and he doesn't sign it? Do they then retain his rights?Yes. If he decides to go play in Europe or the D-League instead, the Spurs will stay retain his rights.

However, it looks like Williams wants to be on an NBA next season, with the Spurs or someone else.

[T Park]

yup

20 year olds never improve.

[Darkwaters]

this is the next manu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNxZ4_O8R8M

Marco is too much gunner and too little slasher to be a proper Ginobili comparison. I personally think Rudy Fernandez could be the more likely heir apparent. That being said, Belinelli looks like he'll be pretty awesome pretty quickly (they announced today that he would be starting at shooting guard this season).

[Russ]

Here's what happened at the Express-News. At happy hour, somebody walked up to Buck Harvey and said "I bet you can't write a column that compares Manu Ginobili to, let's see . . say . . . Marcus Williams."

After they both dissove in laugher for a while, Buck replies "You're on." :)

[objective]

So if the agent has left town already and media day is coming up on Monday . . . where's the news on Williams?

[ShoogarBear]

This thread sure is full of a lot of people who knew what Manu was going to be like when he was 21.

[JamStone]

I remember watching Marcus Williams his freshman year at Arizona late in the season, and he was easily the best player on the court. He was scoring at will, out-rebounding bigs, and doing whatever he wanted. Then last year, I watched a few games, and a great deal of his confidence was gone. After his freshman year and reading some projected mock NBA draft boards, I pegged him for a first rounder whenever he came out, all the way up to draft day in June. I'm still somewhat surprised that guys like Alando Tucker, Arron Afflalo, and Jared Dudley were selected in the first round ahead of him, not to mention a kid like Daequan Cook. I don't know about being the next Manu, but if he gets the right development and works hard on his game, he has the skill set to be a real quality player in the league.

[Mr. Body]

I remember watching Marcus Williams his freshman year at Arizona late in the season, and he was easily the best player on the court. He was scoring at will, out-rebounding bigs, and doing whatever he wanted. Then last year, I watched a few games, and a great deal of his confidence was gone. After his freshman year and reading some projected mock NBA draft boards, I pegged him for a first rounder whenever he came out, all the way up to draft day in June. I'm still somewhat surprised that guys like Alando Tucker, Arron Afflalo, and Jared Dudley were selected in the first round ahead of him, not to mention a kid like Daequan Cook. I don't know about being the next Manu, but if he gets the right development and works hard on his game, he has the skill set to be a real quality player in the league.

We need to pray for a brain transplant, then? What I wouldn't do for a Jared Dudley about now.