Udrih > Parker

[tlongII]

Sorry guys, but it's the truth! This really isn't about how bad Parker is, but rather how good Udrih is. I had no idea who this dude was before this year!

This kid can play. He is the type of point guard that I would like on my team as he gets the ball upcourt in a hurry by not holding on to it. He makes decisions quickly and gets the ball out of his hands and up the court. He sticks the open jumper too. It basically sickens me that the Spurs would find a guy like this, but what the hell.

[texbumTHElife]

Being able to come off the bench and being a spark for the team is much different than being the starting point guard and having to perform well in big minutes night in and night out. I used to really get down on parker because he was so inconsistent and got stupid fouls.

This year however to this point has been different for some reason. I can actually see the progression in Tony parker this season. He looks much more fluid and confident. I have seen far fewer of the stupid pouty fouls and he has been more agressive on both defense and offense.

The only thing I would like to see more of this season so far is for him to be even more agressive on offense. Take the open shots more often and put the ball up around the rim more often. He looks a little bit like Steve Nash did last year. He gets down in the lane and circles around but never put the ball up. I know he is a midget among the trees but thats why we have Duncan down there to clean up.

Anyway the point of all this is that as well as Udrih has looked at times I still think he is best served as a roll player while TP is close to breaking into super star status.

[ducks]

remind me on what speedy is doing as a starter?

[texbumTHElife]

Speedy Claxton: 12ppg 5apg 1spg while starting 19/21 games.

[Solid D]

As mentioned in another thread, Beno and Parker are two entirely different guards. They each have their pluses and minuses. Parker is a jet and a playmaker with a 2-guard mentality. Beno is a true PG with a smooth stroke who needs help keeping up with and defending quicker opposing ball-handlers.

[Rick Von Braun]

It is very nice to have both TP and Beno. No need to pick one over the other one.

As I said in another thread... if these two continue progressing, the Spurs will compete with Sacramento for the best pair of PGs in the league. Our guys are younger and will probably get better.

Good Times http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smismokin.gif

[texbumTHElife]

If only parker was 3-4 inches taller.... :rolleyes

[violentkitten]

48 minutes of quality point guard play a night. Negele who?

[Nikos]

It is very nice to have both TP and Beno. No need to pick one over the other one.

As I said in another thread... if these two continue progressing, the Spurs will compete with Sacramento for the best pair of PGs in the league. Our guys are younger and will probably get better.

Good Times http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smismokin.gif

Well the difference is Beno will have a hard time getting 20mpg+ like Bobby Jackson does because Sacto has a three man rotation at the 1-2 spots, much like the Spurs three man (er 4) rotation at the 2-3 spots.

But yes, great overall potential PG play is very good.

[BigVee]

As mentioned in another thread, Beno and Parker are two entirely different guards. They each have their pluses and minuses. Parker is a jet and a playmaker with a 2-guard mentality. Beno is a true PG with a smooth stroke who needs help keeping up with and defending quicker opposing ball-handlers.

Exactly right. Great to have them both.

[boutons]

I was surprised and glad that Pop let Beno close out the 4th, in fact play the entire 4th, as Tony apparently was physically able and having a good game. Beno deserved it, and he needs experience doing it, for when Tony is hurt or having an horrible game.

[exstatic]

Pop left in the lineup that got them back into the game, period. Both guards have their strengths and their weaknesses. Tony is a jet that no one can stay in front of, one of the fastest guards in the league down the court with his dribble, and an ultra quick defender. Beno threads the needle with passes in the halfcourt, and is a monster shooter. I think the most important line is

48 mins 8-20FG 4-73G 2-2FT 8reb 10ast 21pts

That's the combined PG line from last nights game.

[boutons]

"48 mins 8-20FG 4-73G 2-2FT 8reb 10ast 21pts

That's the combined PG line from last nights game"

Looks like an uncombined PG line for Steve Nash. :)

The PG matchups on 28 Dec will be fascinating: Tony/Beno vs Steve/Leandro

[T Park]

as Tony apparently was physically able

Coach Bud said the groin tightened up a little, so they wanted to be precautious on the injury.

[wildbill2u]

They bring such different skills to the game it's hard to decide which one will have the edge when Beno is a veteran.

With Parker you give up outside shooting (face it, he's never gonna be consistent and apparently won't develop a pull-up jumper off the drive) for speed.

With Beno, you give up speed on defense for BB IQ, passing and some outside shooting ability.

When both are matured, we won't have the luxury of keeping them because both will be starter material.

IMHO

[Jimcs50]

Nice problem to have.

I think Beno is much more fun to watch, and I do not yell "Nooooooooo" at the tv when he shoots a 3 pt shot either. :)

[Jimcs50]

Beno and Brown could win almost any 2 on 2 game in the NBA.

[boutons]

Enjoy him while we can. Like Speedy, Beno will get offered a starter's job/big contract somewhere else in a couple years. Fair enough, Spurs get a couple of years of excellent PG depth, and Beno learns the NBA ropes in the cleanest, winningest, family-est NBA franchise, and maybe wins a ring or two.

[Jimcs50]

Enjoy him while we can. Like Speedy, Beno will get offered a starter's job/big contract somewhere else in a couple years. Fair enough, Spurs get a couple of years of excellent PG depth, and Beno learns the NBA ropes in the cleanest, winningest, family-est NBA franchise, and maybe wins a ring or two.


Hell, if Beno keeps getting better like I think he will, I say trade TP in two yrs, when we can still get something good for him.

[TheWriter]

Enjoy him while we can. Like Speedy, Beno will get offered a starter's job/big contract somewhere else in a couple years. Fair enough, Spurs get a couple of years of excellent PG depth, and Beno learns the NBA ropes in the cleanest, winningest, family-est NBA franchise, and maybe wins a ring or two.

Um... his rookie contract doesn't end for another four seasons including this one.

We have him for longer than a "couple" of years. And you're right, he is going to leave, just like David was and Tim and Manu.

:lol

[Manu20]

Beno has impressed me a lot I honestly did not think that he was this good. He runs the offense good and he is great shooter the only things he needs to improve is his defense.

[boutons]

"David was and Tim and Manu."

... were starters. Beno, and Speedy, backups.

Teams will want Beno in trades before his 4-year contract is up, and Beno will want to start.

[IceColdBrewski]

Hell, if Beno keeps getting better like I think he will, I say trade TP in two yrs, when we can still get something good for him.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner.

[T Park]

haha,

yes, because, Tony Parker wont improve either in two years, right?

[Jimcs50]

haha,

yes, because, Tony Parker wont improve either in two years, right?


um, no. You should be at your peak by your 4th-5th year.

[T Park]

Ohhh ok.


So Steve Francis has already peaked, and is on his way down.

Interesting......


hes peaked out at age 23??

Another bombshell.

[Jimcs50]

Ohhh ok.


So Steve Francis has already peaked, and is on his way down.

Interesting......


hes peaked out at age 23??

Another bombshell.


did not say he is on his way down, but he is no better than he was last year and not much better than the year before...he has plateaued though.

And yes Stevie has plateaued also.

[TheWriter]

Who says you peak by 4-5 seasons?

Jordan didn't win his first title until he was 7 years in the NBA.

Garnett didn't win his MVP until he was 8 years in the NBA.

Tony's 22, been in the league for 3 and a half seasons.

And he's supposed have hit his "peak" already?

Man, you sure are a dumb dumb.

[ducks]

Parker is 59-for-118 from the field since Nov. 27. ... The Spurs have only been outscored four times in the paint this season. They held a 36-26 edge on Wednesday. ... Hedo Turkoglu was playing in his first game against the Spurs since signing as a free agent with Orlando in the offseason. Turkoglu had seven points in 24 minutes.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap?gid=2004121524

[IceColdBrewski]

haha,

yes, because, Tony Parker wont improve either in two years, right?

That's what people told me two years ago when I questioned his shooting ability. Parker may improve slightly but I don't ever expect him to get much better than what he is now. According to the Parker fanatics, he has been on the verge of "breaking out" for the last two seasons now. I'm still waiting. :angel

[T Park]

so at 22, hes supposed to just start taking over right.

cant wait till 25.

Unfuckin real.

[IceColdBrewski]

so at 22, hes supposed to just start taking over right.

cant wait till 25.

Unfuckin real.

With the amount of experience he has in Europe and the NBA, Yes, he should be able to take over by now. Stop using the age excuse. That aint cuttin it anymore. Time to take off the rose collored glasses. He has all the experience he needs.

[texbound]

Teams will want Beno in trades before his 4-year contract is up, and Beno will want to start.

With his low salary for the next 4 yrs, it would have to be a very good offer to entice the FO to make a deal.

[Jimcs50]

Who says you peak by 4-5 seasons?

Jordan didn't win his first title until he was 7 years in the NBA.

Garnett didn't win his MVP until he was 8 years in the NBA.

Tony's 22, been in the league for 3 and a half seasons.

And he's supposed have hit his "peak" already?

Man, you sure are a dumb dumb.


Neither were any better in their 8th year, they were more well know, they had better teams, that is all. TD today is not better than he was in 01 or 02 and he will not be any better than he is now....that is my point.

TP is as good as he is gong to get, in fact he will drop off a lot sooner than a lot of players because what sets him apart from the rest is his speed, and that is the first thing to go. He has a so so shooting stroke, he is HORRIBLE at the FT line, something that is soooo rare for a PG, because PGs are suposed to be decent FT shooters, and usually are. He is an average, at best PG in the NBA, one that is very fortunate to be playing with great teammates. Put him on a team like New Orleans and you will see a huge difference betw him and a healthy Baron Davis.

Put a Steve Nash on the Spurs and he would have 13 assists and shoot 56% a game.

[Jimcs50]

BTW Tpark, stop sucking the little Frenchman's cock.

[T Park]

haha, sure buddy.

And your fellatio on Steve Francis is ok right.

[JUUOT]

Ithink some of you should stop to focus on the stat sheet! the improvement Parker has done can not be seen on it. First he earned the team respect. To be a good point guard you need it badly and his teamates step up to support him (duncan for the new contract) they did not do it before (see jason kidd) so if his teamates give him credits I will.

Then, Even tony admitted he had some players he always had problem to defend like marbury. This year he just destroyed him going 18 points and 9 ass when marbury was 13 p and 7 ass for only 4 fg out of 12. He matured enough to bit his worst ennemies. I think it is a long way to go but this kind of sign do not lie.

Moreover if you cut the begining of the season where gino was on fire, TP has step up and increase his ussual numbers, shooting well and distributing nicely.

Last but not least, if i had only one point to make it is D!!!!!!!!!!!!! Parker is playing amazing defense since the beginning of the season. he is shutting down nearly every other point gard or at least slowing them more than usual. his work out is paying. Just like bowen you might want to look at his opposition stats to understand how good he is or how much he improved.

PS :stop insulting each other for a while and bring some interesting stuff to the table.
I love to debate but do we need to be this bad can't we be more civilized ?

[picnroll]

It always gets to be player A > player B. They're both good and amazing pick-ups at the 28th spot. They have completely different styles and can attack different types of defenses effectively. As Beno gets stronger he and Parker will undoubtedly spend time on the floor together and as Bowen and Barry, if he ever shows up, get older they'll be phased out and likely Manu, Parker, Beno, maybe Devin will spend time at 1 - 3.

Parker can take over a game and hopefully will do it more consistently. Beno is steady and steadies the ship. Fire and ice. Maybe one day one will get traded but for sure for more than the average 28 pick. It's all good.

[SequSpur]

Parker is not a pure shooter, that's his only problem. He leads the league in broken ankles but that's not a stat that you fucking tools can see on ESPN.com.

So shut the fuck up.

[pjjrfan]

Speed Kills. And Tony has it, and he is quick and he can handle the ball. Tony's weakness as far as I'm concerned is not his inconsistent shooting, but rather his inconsistent decision making. And in this he has shown great improvement, and he will continue to grow in his physical and mental game. Beno is just a great find, the kid is fearless, like Tony, but his mentality is strictly that of a pg, and I think Beno is a better shooter although not as good a penetrator and ball handler. What the hell I like them both, and right now I don't think Beno is prepared to take Tony's job, but maybe next year, if Tony point guard mentality doens't improve.

I have always believed that the pg has to be the best or 2nd best player on the team and I don't mean as a scorer but as the guy who gets everyone involved in the offense, and kick starts it when guys are off their game or when the team is struggling. The pg has to control the tempo of the game, making sure that the tempo is the one his team plays best in. Tony still needs to work on that, knowing when to score, when to run, when to go to TD, when to find the weaknesses or mismatches, a coach on the court.

[IceColdBrewski]

To put it bluntly, I think Parker is an idiot when it comes to being a pure PG. He just can't seem to read a defense. That isn't something you can teach. You either have it or you don't. You have to be able to anticipate where the open man is going to be while going full speed. Parker rarely shows this ability. Beno has already shown that he has it.

The difference in the offense is obvious to me when Parker is in the game. The offense is slow, trudging, methodical. When Beno is in the game however, don't close your eyes for a second. You might miss that split-the-defenders pass that leads to an easy layup.

Don't know about you fellas. But I'd rather have a guy that can read the floor quickly. Guys like Manu and Beno for example. These kind of payers give your team an edge. See the 4th quarter comeback against Orlando for proof.

[timvp]

To put it bluntly, I think Parker is an idiot when it comes to being a pure PG. He just can't seem to read a defense. That isn't something you can teach. You either have it or you don't. You have to be able to anticipate where the open man is going to be while going full speed. Parker rarely shows this ability. Beno has already shown that he has it.

The difference in the offense is obvious to me when Parker is in the game. The offense is slow, trudging, methodical. When Beno is in the game however, don't close your eyes for a second. You might miss that split-the-defenders pass that leads to an easy layup.

Don't know about you fellas. But I'd rather have a guy that can read the floor quickly. Guys like Manu and Beno for example. These kind of payers give your team an edge. See the 4th quarter comeback against Orlando for proof.

Your act is tired. Go on to something else. You hate Parker ... we get it.

:sleep

[IceColdBrewski]

Your act is tired. Go on to something else. You hate Parker ... we get it.

:sleep

You hate me. We get it. I don't care. Go on to something else.

[timvp]

You do your part and I'll do my part.

Deal.

[IceColdBrewski]

You do your part and I'll do my part.

Deal.

I will agree to no part at all.

I have my opinions. That's what message boards are for. You're more than welcome to put me on your ignore list. Otherwise, I suggest you learn to get used to it.

[timvp]

That's what I thought. You have one topic.

One trick.

[IceColdBrewski]

That's what I thought. You have one topic.

One trick.

Yep. That's all I'm good for. Even on the Football forum. Guess you'll just have to put me on your ignore list.

Run along now timmy. I'm growing tired of your obsession with me.

[SequSpur]

Parker is not a pure shooter, that's his only problem. He leads the league in broken ankles but that's not a stat that you fucking tools can see on ESPN.com.

So shut the fuck up.

Bump

[IceColdBrewski]

Broken ankles don't win games Seq.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

To put it bluntly, I think Parker is an idiot when it comes to being a pure PG.

When will people realize that Parker IS NOT a true PG? The next time you find somebody in the organization to say Parker is supposed to be a true PG, please let me know.

[exstatic]

After 4 years in the league, Gary Payton had a 3 point % of .209, a FT % of .670, had not averaged more than 6.4 assists in a PG-centric system, and people were saying that he couldn't run a team. He was 26 years old, and Seattle was contemplating trading him. Good thing they didn't.

Put a Steve Nash on the Spurs and he would have 13 assists and shoot 56% a game.
Well, maybe he'd shoot 56%, but the Spurs don't run as much as any Nash team ever has, and the PG gets maybe 30% of our assists on a good night, so I call bullshit on the 13 apg numbers.
Tony and Nash are really the same kind of PG, a jet in the open court, who struggles to find rhythm in the half court. Nash just has a better jumper. Go look at HIS assist numbers for his first 4 seasons. Two of those were as Dallas' starter, and his assist numbers were no better than TP's

[SequSpur]

Broken ankles don't win games Seq.


So far the Spurs are 18 and 5. They have a decent backup that they can build on, so when Parker goes South, Beno can maybe fill in.

The Spurs have 1 championship under Parker, and I personally think there should have been more, however, I don't blame Parker, I blame Pop for the team turnover in personnel year after year after year.

To say that Parker sucks or is an idiot is fucking ludicrous.

Dude is one of the best point guards in the league and can score whenever he wants and can guard any point guard in the league.

[Autumnleaf]

To put it bluntly, I think Parker is an idiot when it comes to being a pure PG. He just can't seem to read a defense. That isn't something you can teach. You either have it or you don't. You have to be able to anticipate where the open man is going to be while going full speed. Parker rarely shows this ability. Beno has already shown that he has it.

to put it bluntly, i think you are an idiot when it comes to appreciating other people. You just can't seem to see people in the right way. That isn't something you can teach. You either have it or you don't. You have to be able to put all the dynamic situations under consideration before you make a judgement. You rarely show this ability.

The difference in the offense is obvious to me when Parker is in the game. The offense is slow, trudging, methodical. When Beno is in the game however, don't close your eyes for a second. You might miss that split-the-defenders pass that leads to an easy layup.
Fortunately Beno only plays about 15 mins per game, otherwise you will have to have a pairs of superman's eyes :lol

Don't know about you fellas. But I'd rather have a guy that can read the floor quickly. Guys like Manu and Beno for example. These kind of payers give your team an edge. See the 4th quarter comeback against Orlando for proof.

Don't know about you VIP. But I'd rather have a guy that can penetrate into the paint quickly. Guys like Tony Parker for example. These kind of players give you win after win. See the WHOLE game against Cleveland for proof.
:smokin

[Jimcs50]

After 4 years in the league, Gary Payton had a 3 point % of .209, a FT % of .670, had not averaged more than 6.4 assists in a PG-centric system, and people were saying that he couldn't run a team. He was 26 years old, and Seattle was contemplating trading him. Good thing they didn't.

Well, maybe he'd shoot 56%, but the Spurs don't run as much as any Nash team ever has, and the PG gets maybe 30% of our assists on a good night, so I call bullshit on the 13 apg numbers.
Tony and Nash are really the same kind of PG, a jet in the open court, who struggles to find rhythm in the half court. Nash just has a better jumper. Go look at HIS assist numbers for his first 4 seasons. Two of those were as Dallas' starter, and his assist numbers were no better than TP's


ex, I said 4-5 yrs..not 4. Look at the % improvement for both Payton and Nash, from years 1-5 in the league. They both kept improving betw 20-40% each year and after the 5th year, they leveled off to their present levels. You do not improve after the 5th year, by and large. Exceptions are if you do not play at all the first few years and then get into a starting position whereupon you get better just because of the number of minutes played. TP has been playing a lot of mins from year 1, unlike Nash.

From what I have seen in Parker's year thus far, he is not improving at all in any category. His FT shooting is getting worse actually.

[ducks]

d is not a catergory?

[JUUOT]

Jimcs50! stop looking at your spreadsheet. if we love basketball it is because this game has a lot more than this. a stat line can never represent what a player brings and it is why Timvp is giving grades after games or +/- ! my point is number might show something but are not the TRUTH! get over it

[exstatic]

Jim, then Parker has almost two years to go. He's barely scratched year 4, only 20 plus games in.

[smeagol]

So far the Spurs are 18 and 5. They have a decent backup that they can build on, so when Parker goes South, Beno can maybe fill in.
Is Sequ praising Beno?

Sequ, funnyman, are you flip-floping again? :lol

[Jimcs50]

Jimcs50! stop looking at your spreadsheet. if we love basketball it is because this game has a lot more than this. a stat line can never represent what a player brings and it is why Timvp is giving grades after games or +/- ! my point is number might show something but are not the TRUTH! get over it



I am not even looking at his stats. I am looking at the way he handles the team. I have seen his same old game for 3 yrs and it does not seem to be evolving any. He has disappeared in the playoffs for 2 straight years because the playoff game bogs down and it becomes a half court game where he is at his weakest. TP is a one trick pony and unless his game and shot improve, the Spurs can do better, and it looks like Beno is the man to replace him.

I mean, just watching Beno run the team is so much fun to watch, he is John Stockton and Magic Johnson combined....You just wait, the Spurs will be playing him in the 4th Q of close games by years end if he continues to improve.

[Jimcs50]

Jim, then Parker has almost two years to go. He's barely scratched year 4, only 20 plus games in.



ex, he is getting worse, not better. We can not afford to have him in the game in the 4th Q with his poor FT shooting, he is a liability. We have 4 poor Ft shooters and we can not have Bowen, TD, TP and Rasho in the game in close games in the 4th Q. Beno will be the one in along with Brown and Rose instead of Bowen, Rasho and TP.

[ChumpDumper]

Bowen's FT% (.767) is higher than that of Malik Rose and Robert Horry, and is 3 percentage points off of Manu's. Not a liability anymore -- shocking as that may seem.

[exstatic]

:lol Bowen is shooting 77% this year from the FT line, Jim.

I'm not willing to write off this year for Tony. His shooting has picked up as of late, and his FT% of 69% is only two points off his career 71%. I put most of this down as a slow start. If he were averaging 20 and 8, you would be saying, yeah, but it's only 23 games in. Please extend him that benefit of the doubt for his slow start.

[MrChug]

I see Beno drawing comparisons to Steve Nash in his first years with the Suns. Aside from the striking resemblance, he handles the ball very confidently with his head on a swivel looking for the open man much like Johnny Stockton...perpetual motion. Johnny would make things happen on the offensive end, he wouldn't wait-just like what Nashy is doing this year...and what I can see Beno developing into.

[ChumpDumper]

Tony's D is better, stunningly better if anyone would care to think about it. Whenever I think he's plateaued he pulls of a huge improvement in his game -- just like Bowen continues to improve aspects of his game late in his career.

I'll take it.

[Nemo]

I see Beno drawing comparisons to Steve Nash in his first years with the Suns. Aside from the striking resemblance, he handles the ball very confidently with his head on a swivel looking for the open man much like Johnny Stockton...perpetual motion. Johnny would make things happen on the offensive end, he wouldn't wait-just like what Nashy is doing this year...and what I can see Beno developing into

Hi guys, I agree with MrChug on Beno. He creates plays. But he has to work on the D. beno is used to the position of being a leader of the team, because he played for big European teams since he was 19. And European teams + Argentina proved their value at this years olympics! (I'm from Slovenia too). But I wouldn't writte of Tony. He's different and that's to be used for the benefit of the team. There are 82 games in the season + playoffs. Spurs need two good guys and (at least) two different types of play to win this year and years to come. Isn't that what we want?

[Jimcs50]

:lol Bowen is shooting 77% this year from the FT line, Jim.

I'm not willing to write off this year for Tony. His shooting has picked up as of late, and his FT% of 69% is only two points off his career 71%. I put most of this down as a slow start. If he were averaging 20 and 8, you would be saying, yeah, but it's only 23 games in. Please extend him that benefit of the doubt for his slow start.


I am not giving up on him either, but he is not as good as he was 2 yrs ago. He shot almost 76% from the line in 02 and had more pts/ game and more assists. His game is stagnating, not improving, so unless we see a reversal of this trend, his trade value will continue to plummet.

But I just can't wait to watch Beno in his next few games, as he is looking like the steal of the draft more and more. Can you imagine him and Manu along with Brown in the game at the same time? Pop will have to throw a towel over his head so he won't be able to watch because he will have a coronary. :lol

[whottt]

Bowen's FT% (.767) is higher than that of Malik Rose and Robert Horry, and is 3 percentage points off of Manu's. Not a liability anymore -- shocking as that may seem.

Go shock yourself...some of us knew all Malik needed was playing time and spent much of last season saying he needed more...even if Horry was playing better...Bowen's improvment is proof that nothing is immutable and players do improve.

Others, were stupid then and shocked now, remain trapped in a limited all or nothing, one or the other, mindset, and they can expect to be shocked again in the future, because of the way they embrace stupidity.

[ChumpDumper]

Go shock yourself...some of us knew all Malik needed was playing time and spent much of last season saying he needed more...even if Horry was playing better...Um, that was about Bowen's FT, dipshit. Where was your prediction about that?

I said if Malik can play like he used to he wont' have to be traded. That has happened and I'm glad. Horry is fine the way he is being used.

Now your prediction about Barry is he will never play regular minutes ever again. When are you going to flip-flop from that?

[whottt]

Um, that was about Bowen, dipshit. Where was your prediction about that?

I said if Malik can play like he used to he wont' have to be traded. That has happened and I'm glad. Horry is fine the way he is being used.

Now your prediction about Barry is he will never play regular minutes ever again. When are you going to flip-flop from that?

He won't while he is with the Spurs, barring injury or loss of talent.

And Horry is in the same shoes Malik was in last season...which is as stupid as it was when it was done to Malik...and probably less deserved.

[ChumpDumper]

He won't while he is with the Spurs, barring injury or loss of talent.Make that your sig so you won't be able to deny it later.

[whottt]

Make that your sig so you won't be able to deny it later.

Um, what have I said in the past that I am denying now Mr.Mrs.Miss. Hedo>Manu?

[ChumpDumper]

It's not my fault you can't read.

Look, if Malik can get back in the rotation after losing out to Willis and Horry, Barry can too -- unless you think he's that bad a player.

Either you do or you don't.

[whottt]

It's not my fault you can't read.

Look, if Malik can get back in the rotation after losing out to Willis and Horry, Barry can too -- unless you think he's that bad a player.

Would that be before or after it contributes to costing us a playoff series?

It's a totally different situation anyway...

Malik was on of Pop's guys to begin with...the fluke is not him making it off the bench...the fluke was that he was there in that manner in the first place...He challenged Pop's authority. He's always been one of Pop's guys... which is why he has been here 8 years, and has a bad contract.

Malik=younger than those guys, has been with the team longer, knows the team better.




Either you do or you don't.

It's not that I think Barry's a bad player, fool...if I thought that I wouldn't be upset about his benching now would I?

It's that Pop has a limited mindset as a coach, to the point where he sometimes hurts the team with his decision making, to the point where it almost outweighs all the other things he does an excellent job at doing...

Some us weren't surprised at what Kerr did in the playoffs...some of used to start threads calling for him in the midst of the team blowing a lead...Some of us are just wondering why Pop never really figured it out.

[ChumpDumper]

Would that be before or after it contributes to costing us a playoff series? You say never, so what do you care?
Some us weren't surprised at what Kerr did in the playoffs...some of used to start threads calling for him in the midst of the team blowing a lead...Some of us are just wondering why Pop never really figured it out.So if you want Barry to play Kerr minutes, why again are you bugging?

And Kerr obviously got the team D concept, however long that took.

Does Barry?

No.

Should we stifle the further development of Brown and Beno into the type of player you think Barry might also develop into in favor of Barry just because he's older? Makes more money?

That's welfare.
He challenged Pop's authority. Playing shitty D is a slap in Pop's face. Let's reward it by giving him more minutes over guy's who actually play D. Get Bob Hill back if that's the way you feel.

[whottt]

You say never, so what do you care?
Because I like winning titles more than trying to hold teams scoreless.


So if you want Barry to play Kerr minutes, why again are you bugging?


And Kerr obviously got the team D concept, however long that took.

Um...I didn't like the minutes Kerr got.

Obviously playing D didn't keep him from rotting on the bench and getting a birds eye view to many a playoff choke job.

And Barry is not Kerr anyway...just because Kerr was able to overcome Pop's stupid mismanagement of his talent doesn't mean Barry will. Kerr had big roles on better teams than any that Pop will ever coach.





Does Barry?

He's not going to play it as well as Devin which means he's going to be given the 50 games a year garbage minutes role whether he plays D or not. There's really no incentive for him to play D..it won't change his minutes in a meaningful way...



Should we stifle the further development of Brown and Beno into the type of player you think Barry might also develop into in favor of Barry just because he's older? Makes more money?


Others, were stupid then and shocked now, remain trapped in a limited all or nothing, one or the other, mindset

How'd not stifling Horry and Hedo work out for us last season...and I use the term stifling in the same joke sense that you unwittingly use it..


That's welfare. Playing shitty D is a slap in Pop's face. Let's reward it by giving him more minutes over guy's who actually play D. Get Bob Hill back if that's the way you feel.

It's a higher priority to me to win a title than it is to worry about who is slapping Pop in the face or getting rewarded or punished.

[ChumpDumper]

There's really no incentive for him to play D.Then trade him. If he'll never get it and has no reason to, quit whining about playing him and start whining about gettting him out of town.
How'd not stifling Horry and Hedo work out for us last season.How'd not stifling Jack in favor of Smith work out the year before? You know that's the more relevant comparison and it's killing you that Barry is Smitty with worse shooting right now.
It's a higher priority to me to win a title than it is to worry about who is slapping Pop in the face or getting rewarded or punished.Ok, so quit trying to take away minutes from Brown and Beno for the welfare of Steve Heal Barry. Let him prove he's better than that.

[sbsquared]

Look guys - the Spurs are 18-5 and have the best start in Franchise history - who cares if Beno is better than Parker or vise versa? They're both great and fun to watch - why can't we just enjoy our good fortune and stop pitting player against player?

[whottt]

How'd not stifling Jack in favor of Smith work out the year before?

It worked out very well...and you never heard me complaing about that move either. Smitty sucked from the 02 AS game on.

You could see the decline in Smitty's game...he started for an entire season...

Barry hasn't even gotten untracked yet.





You know that's the more relevant comparison and it's killing you that Barry is Smitty with worse shooting right now.

Smitty lead the league in 3 PT shooting...that didn't change the fact that he was a choking bitch in the post season...and couldn't even move on D.



I don't know if Barry's a post season choker or not, I don't know if Beno is one or not, just like I didn't know with Hedo...I feel ok about Devin based on what he did last season...then again, I felt ok about AD after the 2001WCF debacle... ...

but what I do know is that the way Pop is handling him now is not going to help him out...not that Pop will call his number in the playoffs anyway...

What I do know is that you can't judge the way a guy is going to perform in the post season by what he does in the regular season...especially when you are talking about shooters on this team.





Ok, so quit trying to take away minutes from Brown and Beno for the welfare of Steve Heal Barry. Let him prove he's better than that.

Fuck that, I want to win a title, not get caught up in stupid pissing contests...and I think getting Barry minutes will help that...It's not about developing guys by giving them every spare minute..it's about winning a title. Our depth of shooters is why I felt so optimistic...Barry being the best one of course...and I feel that depth is being misused. Like it has been before.

The motherfucker is generally considered to be the best shooter in the NBA...he can help Duncan by drawing defensive attention at the perimeter even if he isn't hitting his shot. And he doesn't make stupid decisions with the ball either...

[Slo spurs fan]

Beno and Tony should play at the same time! They are both great!

[ChumpDumper]

but what I do know is that the way Pop is handling him now is not going to help him out...not that Pop will call his number in the playoffs anyway.So you know that right?
The motherfucker is generally considered to be the best shooter in the NBA.No, that's Peja or Ray Allen. Don't exagerrate.
he can help Duncan by drawing defensive attention at the perimeter even if he isn't hitting his shot. And he doesn't make stupid decisions with the ball either...Except for his being able to play team D, you just described Beno.

Basically you guys want a qwhottta of minutes for Barry regardless of anything else that might be happening on the team or on the floor. We get it. You are so quick to point out how many minutes you know he will play but will never nut up and say how many minutes you want him to play.

Why is that?

[wildbill2u]

Look guys - the Spurs are 18-5 and have the best start in Franchise history - who cares if Beno is better than Parker or vise versa? They're both great and fun to watch - why can't we just enjoy our good fortune and stop pitting player against player?

Amen, Brother. Now you're preachin'-- but I'm afraid these fools won't see the light..

[ChumpDumper]

Hey, I'm the one saying things are generally good, and Barry will earn the minutes.

These guys already have us out in the first round.

[ducks]

barry will not average 20 minutes a game this year unless brown and beno get hurt or their play falls off drasically
he would be lucky to average 10

he is nice to have as insurance though

[ChumpDumper]

he would be lucky to average 10Well, that's the bet apparently -- with the tacet understanding that the Spurs are going to suck ass in the playoffs because of it.

[wildbill2u]

Bowen's FT% (.767) is higher than that of Malik Rose and Robert Horry, and is 3 percentage points off of Manu's. Not a liability anymore -- shocking as that may seem.

I don't think we can count on Bowen being out of the woods on his FT shooting or field goal shooting quite yet.

Just like many folks think Barry will revert to his career shooting percentage, Bowen may return to his career average in FT shooting.

But we can devoutly hope that both will improve.

[whottt]

So you know that right?

I am certain.



No, that's Peja or Ray Allen.

I don't think Peja's as good of a shooter...Allen probably is..from three anyway. Anyway...I mean of the non star variety.



Don't exagerrate.Except for his being able to play team D, you just described Beno.

Um..no on the one who is exaggerating is the one that thinks they can judge a player in 2 months while he is hot...

I guantee you that the only people that think Beno is a better shooter than Barry are here on this forum. And they are probably most of the people that said Hedo was better than Manu just because was Hedo was hot.


Basically you guys want a qwhottta of minutes for Barry regardless of anything else that might be happening on the team or on the floor. We get it. You are so quick to point out how many minutes you know he will play but will never nut up and say how many minutes you want him to play.

Why is that?

Becuse I don't want a quota, I don't judge it that way. I look at it in terms of situations, where you guys get stupid is by supporting Pop's mentality of trying to punish Barry, for what you feel is poor play, by not going to him in situations where he could help the team..regardless of how he has played in other situations...


and when I see our offense stagnate..as I have in the second half of just about every game Barry has been yanked..I think that's a good situtation for us to use his skills...If I saw him coming in in those situations I wouldn't care what the rest of his minutes were.


.....you guys are the ones that think in terms of quotas,...I mean I can look at it in terms of absolutes with minutes but that's really not the way I look at it..but I think you and Pop and most everyone else do look at it that way...it seems to be the only language you speak.

[Slo spurs fan]

Whott are you Beno hata?

[ChumpDumper]

I guantee you that the only people that think Beno is a better shooter than Barry are here on this forum.As I said, we'll see. Beno never got regular time on the Spurs either.
and when I see our offense stagnate..as I have in the second half of just about every game Barry has been yanked..I think that's a good situtation for us to use his skills...If I saw him coming in in those situations I wouldn't care what the rest of his minutes were.Again, you decribe Beno to a T, and in many cases, it is an either/or situation -- that's just the way it is?
you guys are the ones that think in terms of quotas,...I mean I can look at it in terms of absolutes with minutes but that's really not the way I look at it.Then why bitch incessantly about his minutes? Why make bets about his minutes?

[Ginobilly]

A lot of people are starting to like Beno because they are starting to see that he's one of the few guards the Spurs have that could hit an open Jumper consistently. Him and Devin are the one's that I see that could do that. Could you trust Manu, Tony, Barry "the savior", to that in the playoffs? Ya'll know in the playoffs they are going to come down hard on Tim and our gurads are going to have hit jumpers. Let's hope Beno doesn't pull a "hedo" in the playoffs and leave Devin all alone.

[ducks]

tp has shot 52% from nov 27

he has been doing well

52% is high for a guard

[whottt]

Whott are you Beno hata?

No, and I'm not a Devin hater either. There is not a player in the rotation on this team that I hate...even Wilks seems to have potential.





What I am is a "utilization of a deep bench" lover.

I know that shooting is the weakest part of Parker and Manu's game, it's something Devin has had to work at...and it's not supposed to be the strongest part of Beno's game either.....I'm not saying they all suck..because they Parker and Manu are both good at it, but I just don't trust them to hit their perimeter shots consistently although Manu is shooting exceptionally well this season...still not sold on his shot yet...I think Bruce loses his legs and he really hasn't shot well in the post season yet...I think Beno is unproven...I think Devin looked good last post season and again this season.

But I don't know that any of these guys can shoot consistently...just like I don't know that Barry's consistency in the regular season will translate to the playoffs...

So I want them all getting PT...I want them all to be options because the only 3 we really know about are Bruce, Manu and Parker...and I'm not satisfied with their perimeter game based on what I have seen in the past...and I think Barry is the most skilled and solid guard on the team in terms of offense...I think he's got a lot to offer on the offensive end...and I think he has been offering it all season..it's just not showing up in his 3 pt PCT.

[whottt]

As I said, we'll see. Beno never got regular time on the Spurs either.Again, you decribe Beno to a T, and in many cases, it is an either/or situation -- that's just the way it is?Then why bitch incessantly about his minutes? Why make bets about his minutes?

I'm not...you are the one that has been bitching about his minutes...not me. You are the one that has been asking for quotas on minutes this entire controversy...and I just took the bet because I realized it was a bad bet on your part and those seem to be the only terms in which you can think.

What I am bitching about is him getting yanked to the bench after meaningless play in the first half and not getting any court action(changed so I don't fuck you up) while our offense stagnates in the second half.

That's what I am bitching about. It's what I have always been bitching about.

[ChumpDumper]

What I am bitching about is him getting yanked to the bench after meaningless play in the first halfMeaningless play is right. He has given no reason to believe he's a better option than Beno when all he gives is 8-10 minutes of meaningless play in the first half.

[whottt]

Your mistake is thinking those minutes are meaningless.


They are meaningless in the sense that our offense isn't stagnant and you can't really notice any impact he has on the game. On top of that he's not doing anything...he's not handling the ball...he standing out there as a spot up shooter...that is a waste of his talents. He can do much more than that.

[ChumpDumper]

Edited.

Look up.
On top of that he's not doing anything...he's not handling the ball...he standing out there as a spot up shooter.Actually he doesn't even shoot now, so that is meaningless.

[Slo spurs fan]

No, and I'm not a Devin hater either. There is not a player in the rotation on this team that I hate...even Wilks seems to have potential.





What I am is a "utilization of a deep bench" lover.

I know that shooting is the weakest part of Parker and Manu's game, it's something Devin has had to work at...and it's not supposed to be the strongest part of Beno's game either.....I'm not saying they all suck..because they Parker and Manu are both good at it, but I just don't trust them to hit their perimeter shots consistently although Manu is shooting exceptionally well this season...still not sold on his shot yet...I think Bruce loses his legs and he really hasn't shot well in the post season yet...I think Beno is unproven...I think Devin looked good last post season and again this season.

But I don't know that any of these guys can shoot consistently...just like I don't know that Barry's consistency in the regular season will translate to the playoffs...

So I want them all getting PT...I want them all to be options because the only 3 we really know about are Bruce, Manu and Parker...and I'm not satisfied with their perimeter game based on what I have seen in the past...and I think Barry is the most skilled and solid guard on the team in terms of offense...I think he's got a lot to offer on the offensive end...and I think he has been offering it all season..it's just not showing up in his 3 pt PCT.
Whottt for how long do you know Beno? I know him since 1998

[whottt]

Meaningless play is right. He has given no reason to believe he's a better option than Beno when all he gives is 8-10 minutes of meaningless play in the first half.


This is not true, he's hit big shots this season, almost exclusively in the second half and almost exclusively when our offense was stagnant.

Your refusal to acknowledge this is your lack of insight...not mine.

I mean you might as well try and tell me he's shot like this for the entire season...when really he hasn't.

[whottt]

Whottt for how long do you know Beno? I know him since 1998

Never even heard of him before the Spurs drafted him.

But I did say this earlier:



But I don't know that any of these guys can shoot consistently...just like I don't know that Barry's consistency in the regular season will translate to the playoffs...

I can look at Barry's career going back further than 98 and I can tell you his current shooting is the aberration.

I can look back at Barry's NBA career for 10 years and I'm not willing to give him credit for something he hasn't done...and if I'm not willing to do it for him, I'm certainly not willing to do it for a rookie.

[Slo spurs fan]

You know what? I think they all will be fine.

[ChumpDumper]

He has given no reason to believe he's a better option than Beno when all he gives is 8-10 minutes of meaningless play in the first half.
This is not trueOf course it's true.

Beno produces good play in the first half.

Barry produces meaningless play in the first half.

Given the choice, who would you give minutes in the second half?

If you choose Barry, you only go by reputation.

[violentkitten]

why do you people argue? its not like youre accomplishing anything

[whottt]

You know what? I think they all will be fine.

Don't know how long you have been following this argument but I have complained about Beno getting yanked also, he got yanked in Detroit..he got yanked against Houston...both we season lows in minutes played for him and both games we either lost or blew a second hald lead and faltered down the stretch.


He's just not getting it as badly as Barry is so I am complaining about Barry more...but he has been getting yanked...and so has Horry...and I have complained about it...it'd be one thing if we were still blowing out these teams when it happened...but we aren't...we are barely winning or losing these games...and I hold Pop responsible for this. And I've seen this happening for years on Spurs teams.

There is absolutely no justification for the way he managed the Houston game as the second night of a back to back...and his substitutions were what lost that game and what almost lost the Detroit game.

[ChumpDumper]

why do you people argue? its not like youre accomplishing anythingComing from the acme of productive posters....

[ChumpDumper]

I hold Pop responsible for thisFucker needs to injure more opponents. Only Cato was out last game and we barely won!

[violentkitten]

you worry about being productive? its the got dam internets

[ChumpDumper]

you worry about being productive?No actually, you're the one worried about accomplishing something.

[Slo spurs fan]

O.K. But who do you think would draft Beno if Spurs didn't had Pop? :rolleyes

[violentkitten]

not worried unlike yourself

[whottt]

Of course it's true.

Beno produces good play in the first half.

Barry produces meaningless play in the first half.

Given the choice, who would you give minutes in the second half?

If you choose Barry, you only go by reputation.

When we are blowing a big lead or making stupid TO's I'd go with Barry.

See that's what you guys don't get...I've bitched about Beno getting yanked, I've bitched about Horry getting yanked as well.

After the Houston loss I made a thread and called out Pop for the way he used all three of them.

All three of the barely played in the second half.

Beno got yanked just like Barry against Detroit and Houston...and it hurt our team.

The reason you seem to think I am only bitching about Barry is because he is the one getting the most criticism and being discussed the most...he also the one getting yanked the most(although Horry is starting to get it also) .

I just don't have your either or mindset, I don't have your..."if I like this player then I have to think this player sucks" outlook.

It shouldn't be too hard to realize this...it wasn't that long ago I was defending Malik against you.

[violentkitten]

fuk yeah man you tell em

[whottt]

Fucker needs to injure more opponents. Only Cato was out last game and we barely won!

I hate to tell you thiis...but Orlando hasn't won a road game against a team with a winning record all season...they are under 500%, and they average giving up nearly 110 points on the road.

Yet you guys act like we just bumped off the Lakers in the playoffs over this win.

See you don't get the duplicity in your own statements...

On the one hand you say the Spurs aren't as good as people think...

Yet then you turn around and defend everything Pop is doing...

So you tell me...just why aren't the Spurs as good as you think?

Let me guess...now that we are losing more games and struggling more on offense in the second half..you think we are playing better right?

[whottt]

O.K. But who do you think would draft Beno if Spurs didn't had Pop? :rolleyes

Your first name isn't Taruky is it?


Been there done this.

[whottt]

fuk yeah man you tell em

MB STFU.

[ChumpDumper]

When we are blowing a big lead or making stupid TO's I'd go with Barry.Gee, we went with Beno last time and won. You are going by rep.
I just don't have your either or mindset, I don't have your..."if I like this player then I have to think this player sucks" outlook.That's complete bullshit -- all you do is rag on players who aren't the ones you think should be out there. and if Barry is playing sucky, I'll say it. You can't even admit it when he does play badly and want to give him minutes based solely on reputation.
it wasn't that long ago I was defending Malik against you.What was there to defend. I said play him or trade him. The only way he was going to play was to not suck like last year. Guess what -- he's not playing like last year so he's playing so he doesn't need to be traded. Forgive me for letting him earn his place in the rotation, and forgive me for wanting Barry to be able to do the same.

[violentkitten]

FU CKYOU.

[whottt]

Gee, we went with Beno last time and won. You are going by rep.

Barely.



That's complete bullshit -- all you do is rag on players who aren't the ones you think should be out there.

Like who?


[
and if Barry is playing sucky, I'll say it.

No, if Pop benches them you'll say it...and when he unbenches them you won't.

I argue with you so much because you do nothing more than defend Pop. This is the closest I can get to arguing with him.



You can't even admit it when he does play badly and want to give him minutes based solely on reputation.

He's shooting badly...I defended Manu last season when he was shooting badly as well...

Why? Because he does other things. And don't act like he was playing this badly before Pop started yanking him.





What was there to defend. I said play him or trade him. The only way he was going to play was to not suck like last year.

That's just it...he didn't suck that bad last year...he had 20-20 game against the Mavs when Duncan was out...

And at the end of the season we went 5-3 or something when Duncan was injured again...all with him starting.

He didn't play that badly...and had he gotten minutes more consistently he would have played even better...and it would have been nice to have him as an option in the Laker series.




Guess what -- he's not playing like last year so he's playing so he doesn't need to be traded. Forgive me for letting him earn his place in the rotation, and forgive me for wanting Barry to be able to do the same.

It hurt the team when they beneched Malik last season...and it's hurting the team when guys like Horry and Barry are getting virtually no PT now.

You act like I am Brent Barry's biggest fan or something...I wanted Jack...I just can see the dude is being misused and it is hurting the team. All because Pop wants to play D more than be the best team the Spurs can be on both sides of the ball.

[ChumpDumper]

Barely.You mean "Barry"
Why? Because he does other things.Other things that Beno is doing better now. And he can shoot and isn't afraid to.
had he gotten minutes more consistently he would have played even better.Why so you act like that is a fact? It isn't.
It hurt the team when they beneched Malik last season.Malik played like an idiot last year -- he is doing much less of it now, but I still say when he does (Philly is a prime example).
You act like I am Brent Barry's biggest fan or somethingActually, YOU act you are his biggest fan.

You can't tell me that having Barry on the floor would've been a better idea than Beno last game, and you sure as hell can say that playing both at the same time woud've been a good idea. Only three guards can play at a time. Period. If Barry wants to be one -- he needs to play better. Why act like he can't?

[violentkitten]

whoa the action is intense

http://www.howeird.com/gallery/Seattle0702/images/Sha-Rome-fighting.jpg

[violentkitten]

they are so cute when they fight

http://www.contracheck.com/cats/02FebMar/image/1097-fighting_med.jpg

[Jimcs50]

Beno is better now for sure, because he hit the 3 to put SA up 16 when I had Spurs -13.5 tonight for $50.

I love that guy even more now. :elephant