Spurs To Retire Avery Johnson's Number 6

[timvp]

Retiring No. 6: The Spurs have made plans to retire the No. 6 jersey worn by point guard Avery Johnson during his 10 seasons with the club at some point this season, though details of the retirement ceremony have yet to be finalized.

Johnson is entering his third season as head coach of the Dallas Mavericks, so the ceremony likely will take place either when the Mavericks play the Spurs at AT&T Center on Dec. 5 or on Feb. 28.

Johnson is the Spurs' all-time assists leader, with 4,474. He also ranks No. 5 in games played (644), No. 7 in points scored (6,486) and No. 5 in steals (712).

It was Johnson's jump shot in the waning seconds of Game 5 of the 1999 NBA Finals that clinched the Spurs' first NBA championship.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA100207.10D.SpursNotes.en.31805b4.html

[timvp]

Nice. About time.

:elephant

[SenorSpur]

Well deserved - unless you talk to Damon Stoudamire

[Zarko]

Did Judas ever make it to heaven? Why are we doing this?

[barbacoataco]

This is a good thing.

[jaffies]

So...you're telling me the Ginobili jersey number debate and/or fiasco had merit.

[T Park]

it still has had zero merit.

[sa_kid20]

finally!!! :tu

[mqywaaah]

Yay for AJ! :)

[SenorSpur]

AJ was certainly the a huge part of the mental fabric of that 1999 championship squad. Having Mario Elie at his side was also a tremendous asset - along with D-Rob, TD and others.

That 1999 championship is the only one AJ will sniff. Because he certainly will not, as a head coach - at least not during the Duncan era.

Anybody care to see AJ come back to the organization as head coach once Pop retires?

[MI21]

He is borderline deserving, but there is something about Avery's time here that was pretty damn special.I see no problem in retiring his jersey, but there will be "better" players for the Spurs who do not get there jersey retired in future because they just didn't have the overall impact on the organization, fans and team as Avery did.

Congrats to Avery :elephant

[Obstructed_View]

They won't try to do it during a game, right? It's bad enough having a ceremony to celebrate the coach of the Mavericks, but it can't be done while Mark Cuban is grimacing in his MFFL T-shirt at the end of the bench.

[KEDA]

I think that this might be the first jersey retirement that I will not be in attendance.

I was never a big AJ fan to start, and he is a coach for the enemy.

IMO if this is true, then it would be an injustice for Bruce Bowen to not get his number retired as well.

[Slippy]

A belated jersey retirement but great to see it finally happen.

[mattyc]

Awe-some. Legend.

[Spurs Dynasty 21]

pathetic

[theroc5]

Did Judas ever make it to heaven? Why are we doing this?
Im with zarko

[picnroll]

So when does Vinnie gets his retired?

[RC's Boss]

Okay, is it just me or is Pop being just a bit too sentimental here? I liked the shot AJ took to win the game and yes he played hard, but damn!!!! It's not like he hit a game 7 shot or some shit or was a go-to-guy. He was just open. Good guy, but undeserved IMO

[George Gervin's Afro]

Yes. I have an AJ Spurs jersey.. we lose everytime I wear it.. :oops

[SenorSpur]

He is borderline deserving, but there is something about Avery's time here that was pretty damn special.I see no problem in retiring his jersey, but there will be "better" players for the Spurs who do not get there jersey retired in future because they just didn't have the overall impact on the organization, fans and team as Avery did.

Congrats to Avery :elephant

I'm mixed on A.J, but can't argue against the retirement.

The one player that I was certain would have his jersey retired by the Spurs was Alvin Robertson. He was a perennial all-star and all-NBA Defensive team member.

He was one of my all-time favorite Spurs and was the best player on the team throughout his tenure that lasted those dark days of the mid-80's (post-Gervin & pre-D-Rob).

His off court personal issues virtually killed the chances of him ever receiving the league and team accolades that he richly deserverd. It's a shame because he was truly a great, all-around player.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

ok, so if the Spurs are retiring Avery's jersey then Manu, Parker, Bowen are DEFINITELY being retired. Its become an absolute must now if it wasn't before.

[samikeyp]

He is borderline deserving, but there is something about Avery's time here that was pretty damn special.I see no problem in retiring his jersey, but there will be "better" players for the Spurs who do not get there jersey retired in future because they just didn't have the overall impact on the organization, fans and team as Avery did.

Exactly.

Too many people think that a retired jersey is just about stats and its not. There are no set rules or criteria for jersey retirement. Its usually what about what that person meant to the franchise and the community. There are players on almost every team in the league who didn't win a ring, or have monster stats or are going to the Hall of Fame but they have a special place in the hearts and minds of the organization and city. Avery has that to a lot of fans. I think that may have changed for some given his current job. I don't think you would see the same rancor about that if he coached almost anywhere else.

Personally, I am ok with his number going up, but then again I would not have been heart broken if it didn't.

And for the same reasons as above, Bowen should have his retired. Not awesome stats and will not be in the HOF but he has created the same kind of place with fans as Avery has and, like AJ was, is big in the community.

[smeagol]

Waiting for whottt's meltdown . . .

[angel_luv]

Here's Angel's meltdown to keep you entertained until Whottt arrives.

:lol :(


Ew, ew, ew!

[picnroll]

If Don Harris had kept his fat mouth shut Manu would be wearing 6.

[angel_luv]

I think that this might be the first jersey retirement that I will not be in attendance.


I am planning to boycott the ceremony as well. However I may end up staying only because there are some train wrecks you can't help but watch.

But ugh to think of his jersey in the rafters with our beautiful Championship banners. Ugh!!!!!!!!!!

[sa_butta]

Was he really that great for us that he deserves to be retired??

All the time he spent in San Antonio he had one really good season and to me that doesn't warrant a Jersey retirement.

[sa_butta]

Exactly.

Too many people think that a retired jersey is just about stats and its not. There are no set rules or criteria for jersey retirement. Its usually what about what that person meant to the franchise and the community. There are players on almost every team in the league who didn't win a ring, or have monster stats or are going to the Hall of Fame but they have a special place in the hearts and minds of the organization and city. Avery has that to a lot of fans. I think that may have changed for some given his current job. I don't think you would see the same rancor about that if he coached almost anywhere else.

Personally, I am ok with his number going up, but then again I would not have been heart broken if it didn't.

And for the same reasons as above, Bowen should have his retired. Not awesome stats and will not be in the HOF but he has created the same kind of place with fans as Avery has and, like AJ was, is big in the community.I see where you are coming from there, but Im not exactly thrilled about it.

[Spurminator]

I've said from the beginning of this debate that I have no preference either way, and I still don't. But congrats to AJ.

[foodie2]

This is pitiful. IMHO it cheapens the honor for the other people who were more deserving.

[degenerate_gambler]

If Don Harris had kept his fat mouth shut...


That's impossible..

[SequSpur]

Well great they finally topped the Scola debacle...

This organization is getting better every day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Behrooz24]

Ahhhhhhhhh hell no!

[Oh, Gee!!]

kudos to A.J.

[SenorSpur]

ok, so if the Spurs are retiring Avery's jersey then Manu, Parker, Bowen are DEFINITELY being retired. Its become an absolute must now if it wasn't before.

There's no question that Manu, TP and Bowen will have their jerseys retired - regardless of what happens with A.J. Hell, these three guys, along with Duncan, have been the backbone and core contributors of the past 3 title teams.

[MajorMike]

Lame. I personally don't think Elliott even did enough to have his retired.

[fatsack]

then i want Manu, Parker, Bowen, Alvin Robertson, Mario Elie, Vinny Del Negro, Terry Cummings, and Danny Ferry's jerseys retired also.

[Oh, Gee!!]

then i want Manu, Parker, Bowen, Alvin Robertson, Mario Elie, Vinny Del Negro, Terry Cummings, and Danny Ferry's jerseys retired also.

I'll give you Manu, Parker, and Bowen when they retire; the other ones-I'm not so sure.

[Extra Stout]

When they retired 00, that opened the floodgate for a lot of marginal players to have their numbers retired.

I ask only, for Avery, rather than retiring #6 in his honor, that they retire #67.

[samikeyp]

I ask only, for Avery, rather than retiring #6 in his honor, that they retire #67.

:lol

[Mitch Cumsteen]

When they retired 00, that opened the floodgate for a lot of marginal players to have their numbers retired..
Agree 100%. Johnny Moore having his number retired was a joke. Retiring AJ's number is also a joke.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the leadership that AJ brought to that championship team, and I suppose it's something that you can't quantify in a statistic, but he just wasn't that great of a player. He was one of the worst jump shooting point guards in NBA history and he was a marginal defender. He never played in an All-star game. He never led the league in assists. He was a leader and he hit the title clinching shot. And he gave funny interviews. He got a ring. He shouldn't get a banner.

Besides, Walter Berry is the true #6. I can't believe they ever let AJ wear his number.

[Texas_Ranger]

It's cool with me.

[SenorSpur]

Agree 100%. Johnny Moore having his number retired was a joke. Retiring AJ's number is also a joke.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the leadership that AJ brought to that championship team, and I suppose it's something that you can't quantify in a statistic, but he just wasn't that great of a player. He was one of the worst jump shooting point guards in NBA history and he was a marginal defender. He never played in an All-star game. He never led the league in assists. He was a leader and he hit the title clinching shot. And he gave funny interviews. He got a ring. He shouldn't get a banner.

Besides, Walter Berry is the true #6. I can't believe they ever let AJ wear his number.

Love the Walter Berry comment. In that case, Alvin Robertson is the true #6. I can't believe they ever let Duncan wear his number either.

[samikeyp]

Love the Walter Berry comment. In that case, Alvin Robertson is the true #6. I can't believe they ever let Duncan wear his number either.

21 maybe?

Besides...21 should have ended with Irv Kiffin.:lol

And they gave Goo Kennedy's number to some guy named Robinson!

:lol :lol

[sandman]

Awkward.

Played in a total of 10 seasons for the Spurs, but that was spread out over 3 different stints, the last of which was 7 years. Played for a total of 6 different teams over 16 seasons, changing teams 10 times.

In 16 years, he averaged double figures in points only 6 times. 4 of those times were between 10-11 ppg and twice he was at 13 ppg. Career assist numbers are 5.5 apg and only once had more than 8 apg. Considering that he started all but about 35 games in his 7-year stretch with the Spurs, those were pretty mediocre numbers. Never was an All-Star; never made an All-NBA team.

THAT is the trademark of a journeyman player.

Throw in the fact that the Spurs did not want to resign him, and he eventually played/coaches for the Mavericks, and I am not sure that all the "L'il General" sentimentality is enough to overcome all of that.

AJ was outspoken and took advantage of DRob's personality to create his "L'il General" persona, but in all reality the catalyst of the '99 team was Elie. DRob and TD brought the talent, Mario brought the heart. It was Elie that called the team out and jump started the first championship run.

At least with Johnny Moore there is an argument that his illness shortened career showed the statistical merit to go along with the sentimentality. Sean Elliott only had 7 full seasons and 4 half seasons due to his illness, but he also had the stats and All-Star appearances to go with the Memorial Day Miracle.

AJ has nothing but sentimentality, and to me, that is not enough. If the Spurs would not have won the '99 title, we would not even be debating this.

[2centsworth]

When are you people going to figure out the game is 80% mental and 20% athletic ability.

AJ had the mental down pact. I'm just not a fan of his boyfriend Mark Cuban.

[sandman]

When are you people going to figure out the game is 80% mental and 20% athletic ability.

I agree.

Sincerely,

Amara Stoudamire

[SenorSpur]

Awkward.

Played in a total of 10 seasons for the Spurs, but that was spread out over 3 different stints, the last of which was 7 years. Played for a total of 6 different teams over 16 seasons, changing teams 10 times.

In 16 years, he averaged double figures in points only 6 times. 4 of those times were between 10-11 ppg and twice he was at 13 ppg. Career assist numbers are 5.5 apg and only once had more than 8 apg. Considering that he started all but about 35 games in his 7-year stretch with the Spurs, those were pretty mediocre numbers. Never was an All-Star; never made an All-NBA team.

THAT is the trademark of a journeyman player.

Throw in the fact that the Spurs did not want to resign him, and he eventually played/coaches for the Mavericks, and I am not sure that all the "L'il General" sentimentality is enough to overcome all of that.

AJ was outspoken and took advantage of DRob's personality to create his "L'il General" persona, but in all reality the catalyst of the '99 team was Elie. DRob and TD brought the talent, Mario brought the heart. It was Elie that called the team out and jump started the first championship run.

At least with Johnny Moore there is an argument that his illness shortened career showed the statistical merit to go along with the sentimentality. Sean Elliott only had 7 full seasons and 4 half seasons due to his illness, but he also had the stats and All-Star appearances to go with the Memorial Day Miracle.

AJ has nothing but sentimentality, and to me, that is not enough. If the Spurs would not have won the '99 title, we would not even be debating this.

Wonderful points.

There is a tendency to glorify and cannonize a player's career after he's long retired. As you mentioned, we forget that AJ was a journeyman PG until he finally settlled here in his 3rd stint. I could argue that if John Lucas' off-court issues hasn't resurfaced, AJ would have never found a home here.

From a statistical perspective, you could certainly make a better case for Johnny Moore. He was a far better PG that Avery ever was. Had his career not been cut short, AJ would have never eclipsed his club record as the all-time leader in assists.

That said, I'm becoming more convinced that this honor for A.J is more sentimental than anything else. Since he and Pop are very close, it should not come as a surprise.

[sandman]

When they retired 00, that opened the floodgate for a lot of marginal players to have their numbers retired.

For a span of 5 years, 00 averaged 12 points, 9.5 assists and 2.5 steals per game. While his ppg average was a bit low, he also played most of those 5 years with Gervin, Mitchell and Gilmore, who were 25+, 20+ and 18+ ppg scorers, respectively during that time frame.

Heck, for that matter, why don't we argue about Silas having his number in the rafters. 8 years with the Spurs, and outside of a 16 ppg average between his ABA/NBA days, all of his other stats were below mediocre for a point guard. Averaged over 5 assists only once in his career and averaged 1 steal per game over his 8 seasons.

How is Silas statistically more deserving than Moore? I would argue that both deserve to be in the rafters based on on-court accomplishments and a high degree of sentimentality. However, AJ does not belong in their company. He was not the scorer like Silas, nor the stereotypical PG like Moore. He supposedly had heart, but since he couldn't win it either without Duncan, I personally believe he was more mouth than heart.

[sandman]

That said, I'm becoming more convinced that this honor for A.J is more sentimental than anything else. Since he and Pop are very close, it should not come as a surprise.

Maybe I am just not reading the right articles, but I don't often hear very many of his former teammates speak endearingly about him, Timmy in particular. Not sure he really liked his style (see: Antonio Daniels brought in after TD's rookie year).

[whottt]

Ive been on the fence about this from day 1

:tu

[SenorSpur]

Maybe I am just not reading the right articles, but I don't often hear very many of his former teammates speak endearingly about him, Timmy in particular. Not sure he really liked his style (see: Antonio Daniels brought in after TD's rookie year).

I've only heard, even jokingly among some players commentary, that Avery could be a royal pain on a daily basis. Hell, even D-Rob claimed that he loved AJ, but he even got on his nerves. (Recall the Malik Rose scuffle).

I've also heard and read that AJ pretty much ran the team during his last stint with the Spurs. That he had a tremendous amount of influence on personal decisions (see Chucky Brown dismissal).

We all know that winning is a great deodorant and that the 1999 championship season was a true testimony to how a team bands together through adversity. Had they not won it, perhaps we would be hearing more "True Hollywood Stories" about how the failures of that squad and any intimate lockerroom chemistry issues that existed.

That said, I'm wondering if anyone else can substantiate whether there were any chemistry issues or "bad blood" that may have swirled around during AJ's personality duirng his tenure?

[whottt]

We all knew it was going to happen...

I'm just glad AJ got some humiliating ass kickings prior to it happening...he needed to be humbled to remember where he came from. People need to always understand this...the Spurs made AJ, he didn't make them.





RE: Johnny Moore




For the 1,545,534,453,535,534 time....



Johnny Moore's number is not retired soley because of statistical achievement or being a face of the franchice...

His number is retired because his career ended prematurely because of debilitating illness.


The same could be said of Sean Elliott, similar could be said even of James Silas...


The same cannot be said for Avery Johnson...and he was no Ice or Drob either.



AJ, doesn't deserve it, at all, but it's going to happen, and at least he's not going in there like the little bitch he's been since parting ways with the franchise 7-8 years ago. Getting humiliated in the post season the past couple of years has done wonders for his attitude.

[CubanMustGo]

At the rate SA is retiring jerseys they'll end up with a team of guys wearing 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s before too many more years go by.

AJ? Not worthy.

[SenorSpur]

We all knew it was going to happen...

I'm just glad AJ got some humiliating ass kickings prior to it happening...he needed to be humbled to remember where he came from. People need to always understand this...the Spurs made AJ, he didn't make them.





RE: Johnny Moore




For the 1,545,534,453,535,534 time....



Johnny Moore's number is not retired soley because of statistical achievement or being a face of the franchice...

His number is retired because his career ended prematurely because of debilitating illness.


The same could be said of Sean Elliott, similar could be said even of James Silas...


The same cannot be said for Avery Johnson...and he was no Ice or Drob either.



AJ, doesn't deserve it, at all, but it's going to happen, and at least he's not going in there like the little bitch he's been since parting ways with the franchise 7-8 years ago. Getting humiliated in the post season the past couple of years has done wonders for his attitude.

Despite his unfortunate illness, Johnny Moore was a good enough player for the organization to at least warrant consideration for jersey retirement. The illness simply made it a no-brainer.

[Mitch Cumsteen]

Heck, for that matter, why don't we argue about Silas having his number in the rafters. 8 years with the Spurs, and outside of a 16 ppg average between his ABA/NBA days, all of his other stats were below mediocre for a point guard. Averaged over 5 assists only once in his career and averaged 1 steal per game over his 8 seasons.

How is Silas statistically more deserving than Moore? I would argue that both deserve to be in the rafters based on on-court accomplishments and a high degree of sentimentality. However, AJ does not belong in their company. He was not the scorer like Silas, nor the stereotypical PG like Moore. He supposedly had heart, but since he couldn't win it either without Duncan, I personally believe he was more mouth than heart.
James Silas was the first true star of the Spurs. Before he got hurt, he was better than Gervin. I'm going to type that again, in rude all caps: HE WAS BETTER THAN GEORGE GERVIN BEFORE HE GOT HURT!!! He was a two-time ABA All-Star. He was first team All-ABA in the last year of the league (when it was comparable to the NBA). He beat out David Thompson and George Gervin for first team honors that year. He was second team All-ABA the year before that. In addition, James Silas was the most clutch player in Spurs history, with the exception of Robert Horry.

And Silas played in an era when there weren't necessarily point guards and shooting guards. He was just a guard. His job wasn't strictly to distribute. He was a scorer and a playmaker.

Johnny Moore did lead the league in assists and his career was cut short tragically. You could argue that his assist numbers were bloated by playing with Ice, Mitch, and Gimore in an up tempo game. How hard was it to throw it down on the block to one of those guys? It's not like Jr. was ever a break-you-down off the dribble drive and dish player. Still, he was a nice player. He was never the best player on his team. He was never an All-star. He was never considered to be among the best of his position in the league. Nice guy, good player, not even close to deserving to have his number retired.

[The Truth #6]

#6 is Walter Berry's jersey. However, I do like Avery, basically.

[SenorSpur]

James Silas was the first true star of the Spurs. Before he got hurt, he was better than Gervin. I'm going to type that again, in rude all caps: HE WAS BETTER THAN GEORGE GERVIN BEFORE HE GOT HURT!!! He was a two-time ABA All-Star. He was first team All-ABA in the last year of the league (when it was comparable to the NBA). He beat out David Thompson and George Gervin for first team honors that year. He was second team All-ABA the year before that. In addition, James Silas was the most clutch player in Spurs history, with the exception of Robert Horry.

And Silas played in an era when there weren't necessarily point guards and shooting guards. He was just a guard. His job wasn't strictly to distribute. He was a scorer and a playmaker.

Johnny Moore did lead the league in assists and his career was cut short tragically. You could argue that his assist numbers were bloated by playing with Ice, Mitch, and Gimore in an up tempo game. How hard was it to throw it down on the block to one of those guys? It's not like Jr. was ever a break-you-down off the dribble drive and dish player. Still, he was a nice player. He was never the best player on his team. He was never an All-star. He was never considered to be among the best of his position in the league. Nice guy, good player, not even close to deserving to have his number retired.


To add to your points on Silas, his numbers (pts and assists; regular season and playoffs) were going his last couple of years leading up prior to his injury. Once he came back, the knee injury robbed him of some of the quickness explosiveness that made him one of the most feared PGs in the ABA.

[sandman]

We all knew it was going to happen...

I'm just glad AJ got some humiliating ass kickings prior to it happening...he needed to be humbled to remember where he came from. People need to always understand this...the Spurs made AJ, he didn't make them.





RE: Johnny Moore




For the 1,545,534,453,535,534 time....



Johnny Moore's number is not retired soley because of statistical achievement or being a face of the franchice...

His number is retired because his career ended prematurely because of debilitating illness.


The same could be said of Sean Elliott, similar could be said even of James Silas...


The same cannot be said for Avery Johnson...and he was no Ice or Drob either.



AJ, doesn't deserve it, at all, but it's going to happen, and at least he's not going in there like the little bitch he's been since parting ways with the franchise 7-8 years ago. Getting humiliated in the post season the past couple of years has done wonders for his attitude.

Not arguing any of that. Bad knees, menangitis and kidneys did cut short three careers that were very well established. I have no problem with any of the three being in the rafters.

[whottt]

Despite his unfortunate illness, Johnny Moore was a good enough player for the organization to at least warrant consideration for jersey retirement. The illness simply made it a no-brainer.


I'll agree with that. He was part of the most successful period of the franchise to that point, even at the time of his jersey retirement, and he lead the league in assists. He also was one steal short of becoming the second player to record a quad double.


And the thing is...Johnny Moore's career basically ended at the age of 28. People compare AJ's stats to his to jock AJ's numbers as retirement worthy, but they don't take that into consideration.


I agree...there's no statistical reason to put AJ up there...and I think people that try to use his numbers to justify him going up there only embarrass themselves.


He is going up there entirely based upon, "face of the franchise" merit, and he has enough friends in high places to pull it off...

Can't stop it.


My issue with him has always been that for a guy going up there based on "face of the franchise" credentials...he sure has a been little bitch since his career here came to an end.

As I said earlier...he's had a much better attitude in recent interviews since getting humiliated in the post season the past couple of years, better attitude about SA and his time with the Spurs...not to mention he doesn't sound like he thinks he's the greatest thing to hite basketball since the hoop.


Not much you can do about it now...and at least his attitude's better. It was really going to piss me off if they retired his jersey while he was still copping that attitude.

[Lady Marmalade]

I am not sure he deserves it.....

[Tobias]

I think he deserves it...but it is quite a turn around from when they were ready to hand #6 over to Ginobili when he first arrived.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Didn't AJ refer to Parker as a boy being sent to do a man's job?

I don't feel that he did enough as a Spur to earn it, and nothing he's done since leaving has changed that.

I won't burn my Spurs fan membership card over this, but it's getting pushed back a bit in my wallet. It's now ahead of my library card but behind the Petsmart Value Card.

[sandman]

James Silas was the first true star of the Spurs. Before he got hurt, he was better than Gervin. I'm going to type that again, in rude all caps: HE WAS BETTER THAN GEORGE GERVIN BEFORE HE GOT HURT!!! He was a two-time ABA All-Star. He was first team All-ABA in the last year of the league (when it was comparable to the NBA). He beat out David Thompson and George Gervin for first team honors that year. He was second team All-ABA the year before that. In addition, James Silas was the most clutch player in Spurs history, with the exception of Robert Horry.

And Silas played in an era when there weren't necessarily point guards and shooting guards. He was just a guard. His job wasn't strictly to distribute. He was a scorer and a playmaker.

Johnny Moore did lead the league in assists and his career was cut short tragically. You could argue that his assist numbers were bloated by playing with Ice, Mitch, and Gimore in an up tempo game. How hard was it to throw it down on the block to one of those guys? It's not like Jr. was ever a break-you-down off the dribble drive and dish player. Still, he was a nice player. He was never the best player on his team. He was never an All-star. He was never considered to be among the best of his position in the league. Nice guy, good player, not even close to deserving to have his number retired.

Please don't think that I was actually arguing against Silas being in the rafters. I know that neither Silas nor Moore are their strictly based on stats. I am just not understanding how some people quickly dismiss a player in Jr who was a half an assist away from being a double-double guy during the 5 main years of his career. Yes, he did have some scoring studs on his team, but that argument would invalidate half of the Celtics in the HoF because they played with Russell. If he were able to replicate those numbers over another 3-5 years, it's hard to argue that a true PG averaging 12-13 ppg and 10 apg over an 8-10 year period is not rafter worthy. As SenorSpur stated, the illness created the sentimentality factor for the no-brainer.

[LEONARD]

AJ is the man...

[SenorSpur]

I'll agree with that. He was part of the most successful period of the franchise to that point, even at the time of his jersey retirement, and he lead the league in assists. He also was one steal short of becoming the second player to record a quad double. .

Don't forget, Johnny Moore was perennially, one of league leaders in steals too. Always in the top 3-5.



My issue with him has always been that for a guy going up there based on "face of the franchise" credentials...he sure has a been little bitch since his career here came to an end.

As I said earlier...he's had a much better attitude in recent interviews since getting humiliated in the post season the past couple of years, better attitude about SA and his time with the Spurs...not to mention he doesn't sound like he thinks he's the greatest thing to hite basketball since the hoop.

Not much you can do about it now...and at least his attitude's better. It was really going to piss me off if they retired his jersey while he was still copping that attitude.

Speak more to this "attitude" of Avery's. Was there an arrogance? Are you referring to his coaching stint or his post-Spurs playing days or both?

[Whisky Dog]

They need to get a little stricter with the jersey retirements. From 1990 on there should only be 4 jerseys retired - Dave, TD, TP, Manu. Possibly Bowen, but that's a stretch from a stats standpoint as Bowen is essential but also a specialist.

[Whisky Dog]

If they start retiring everyone with AJ's clout then the Spurs of the future will be wearing NFL lineman numbers. Every number short of 51 will be gone.

[saporvida]

aj was mediocre and his number shouldn't be retired. it should never hang in the rafters of the at&t center! i couldn't stand aj when he was on our team and i can't stand him now.

[SenorSpur]

Didn't AJ refer to Parker as a boy being sent to do a man's job?

I don't feel that he did enough as a Spur to earn it, and nothing he's done since leaving has changed that.

I won't burn my Spurs fan membership card over this, but it's getting pushed back a bit in my wallet. It's now ahead of my library card but behind the Petsmart Value Card.

Wow! Pretty explosive stuff. Never heard that. I'm sure he must have been pissed about Pop giving the job to Parker because AJ's boy was Antonio Daniels, whom he was mentoring regularly.

Don't know how AJ could have the audacity to come off like that. I do know that he hates rookies - even now with him coaching the Mavs.

[sandman]

They need to get a little stricter with the jersey retirements. From 1990 on there should only be 4 jerseys retired - Dave, TD, TP, Manu. Possibly Bowen, but that's a stretch from a stats standpoint as Bowen is essential but also a specialist.

But as a specialist, Bowen has been All-NBA Defensive Team for the last 7 years, the last 4 on First Team. How many times has he finished second or third in DPOY voting? What he lacks in stats he has made up for in peer related recognition. He has not missed a single game during the "3 in 5" run and started every single game in those 5 years. He has also led the league in 3-PT FG%. And for being on a team where he is the 4th or 5th scoring option, he has averaged over 7 ppg. Not spectacular or even remarkable from a scoring perspective, but I will take an ironman, 3-point shooting defensive stopper any day of the week. For this team and its unique makeup, he brings as many non-statistical intangibles to the table as Manu.

And since we are talking a team honor and not HoF, Bowen would need to be considered in the TP/Manu number retirement talk. Consider it a mortal lock if they are able to repeat this year.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

If you retire AJ's number you have to retire Bowen's. I would argue that Bowen had as much or more to do with three championships as AJ did with one.

[SenorSpur]

If you retire AJ's number you have to retire Bowen's. I would argue that Bowen had as much or more to do with three championships as AJ did with one.

Precisely. Without Bowen's stellar defensive efforts and timely 3-pt shooting, I'm not sure the Spurs win all three titles. Duncan is the seminal force by which all success revolves, but he cannot step out on the perimeter and guard the great perimeter players of the past 5 years.

A.J never has the type of impact that even Johnny Moore had on his teams.

[Uncle Donnie]

Ugh

[FromWayDowntown]

I think the Spurs have, in a sense, cheapened the meaning of retiring a player's jersey and made it virtually impossible for themselves to avoid retirements of non-superstars as things go forward.

With that said, the retirement of AJ's jersey was just a matter of time. It does ensure that Manu, Tony, and Bruce Bowen (to say nothing of Popovich) will have similar ceremonies in their futures, because I think most reasonable Spurs fans would immediately argue that those guys have had a greater impact on this franchise's successes than AJ did.

The question it raises for me is where does all of this end? Does Malik Rose, with his 2 rings and his on-going status as a favorite in San Antonio, deserve a retirement? If not, why is Malik really all that different from AJ? What about Robert Horry? AJ's legacy, as the original story suggests, is largely defined by his hitting a shot with about a minute left in a Finals game that the Spurs didn't have to have -- Horry's resume with the Spurs already has more clutch moments on it than AJ's did. How do the Spurs justify retiring AJ's jersey while ignoring All-Stars like Larry Kenon, who played key roles on some of the very good Spurs teams of the early years?

I realize that there are good answers to each of those questions that distinguish those players from this one, but I think the questions must still be asked if only to try to figure out the rhyme or reason in awarding this honor. That isn't to say that I would take away a team's right to develop its own criteria for deciding who's remembered forever; and in the end, this one isn't egregious. But I do think there needs to be some re-thinking of the purpose of the honor and some renewed discretion in awarding it.

I'm guessing that this will happen either following a Spurs-Mavs game in SA or one night when the Spurs are at home and the Mavs are off. I think I'd prefer the latter, though it would be funny to hear Mavs' fans cheering for AJ being honored by the Spurs.

[Whisky Dog]

But as a specialist, Bowen has been All-NBA Defensive Team for the last 7 years, the last 4 on First Team. How many times has he finished second or third in DPOY voting? What he lacks in stats he has made up for in peer related recognition. He has not missed a single game during the "3 in 5" run and started every single game in those 5 years. He has also led the league in 3-PT FG%. And for being on a team where he is the 4th or 5th scoring option, he has averaged over 7 ppg. Not spectacular or even remarkable from a scoring perspective, but I will take an ironman, 3-point shooting defensive stopper any day of the week. For this team and its unique makeup, he brings as many non-statistical intangibles to the table as Manu.

And since we are talking a team honor and not HoF, Bowen would need to be considered in the TP/Manu number retirement talk. Consider it a mortal lock if they are able to repeat this year.

I agree that Bowen has made a lot of contributions to the team that definitely puts him in the mix for having his jersey retired. With AJ's getting retired now that should make Bowen a lock, but my point is that AJ's should never be retired. It should be reserved for the elite of the elite, the people who are the most responsible for the team and organization being where it is today. I do think that Bowen should be included in that list, but he's a lot closer to borderline than Ice, Dave, and TD. TP solidified his case with his Finals MVP performance and by carrying the team through many stretches over the last two seasons. Manu and Bowen are the two that could go either way, but I think they both should be there someday.

AJ should not.

[sandman]

I agree that Bowen has made a lot of contributions to the team that definitely puts him in the mix for having his jersey retired. With AJ's getting retired now that should make Bowen a lock, but my point is that AJ's should never be retired. It should be reserved for the elite of the elite, the people who are the most responsible for the team and organization being where it is today. I do think that Bowen should be included in that list, but he's a lot closer to borderline than Ice, Dave, and TD. TP solidified his case with his Finals MVP performance and by carrying the team through many stretches over the last two seasons. Manu and Bowen are the two that could go either way, but I think they both should be there someday.

AJ should not.

I think we are in agreement. Retiring AJ's number sets a precedent. Instead of having a healthy debate on how much Bowen will have meant to the Spurs in the Championship Era, we are almost required to make it happen because of AJ. At least Jr and Ninja had freakish career-debilitating illnesses that opened the Sympathy Rafter. AJ is getting there on what I believe is a posterity-induced misrepresentation of his "leadership" and "toughness".

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Fucking lame. Maybe they'll hang a jersey with the knife sticking out the back, seeings that's what AJ likes to do when the chips are down in the playoffs and Dallas is playing S.A.

If Dallas beats us in the playoffs again and I see Pop happy for AJ I'm going to drive to SA and kick him in the fucking junk.

Oh, and Don Harris sucks.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Didn't AJ refer to Parker as a boy being sent to do a man's job?

I don't feel that he did enough as a Spur to earn it, and nothing he's done since leaving has changed that.

I won't burn my Spurs fan membership card over this, but it's getting pushed back a bit in my wallet. It's now ahead of my library card but behind the Petsmart Value Card.

Don't forget his little whinefest when the Spurs and Mavs met in '05, despite Air Deutschmark getting every call under the sun.

Avery the Spur is dead. I hate this decision.

Maybe we can retire Jaren Jackson's next, he did help us win a title after all...

[sandman]

I think the Spurs have, in a sense, cheapened the meaning of retiring a player's jersey and made it virtually impossible for themselves to avoid retirements of non-superstars as things go forward.

With that said, the retirement of AJ's jersey was just a matter of time. It does ensure that Manu, Tony, and Bruce Bowen (to say nothing of Popovich) will have similar ceremonies in their futures, because I think most reasonable Spurs fans would immediately argue that those guys have had a greater impact on this franchise's successes than AJ did.

The question it raises for me is where does all of this end? Does Malik Rose, with his 2 rings and his on-going status as a favorite in San Antonio, deserve a retirement? If not, why is Malik really all that different from AJ? What about Robert Horry? AJ's legacy, as the original story suggests, is largely defined by his hitting a shot with about a minute left in a Finals game that the Spurs didn't have to have -- Horry's resume with the Spurs already has more clutch moments on it than AJ's did. How do the Spurs justify retiring AJ's jersey while ignoring All-Stars like Larry Kenon, who played key roles on some of the very good Spurs teams of the early years?

I realize that there are good answers to each of those questions that distinguish those players from this one, but I think the questions must still be asked if only to try to figure out the rhyme or reason in awarding this honor. That isn't to say that I would take away a team's right to develop its own criteria for deciding who's remembered forever; and in the end, this one isn't egregious. But I do think there needs to be some re-thinking of the purpose of the honor and some renewed discretion in awarding it.

I'm guessing that this will happen either following a Spurs-Mavs game in SA or one night when the Spurs are at home and the Mavs are off. I think I'd prefer the latter, though it would be funny to hear Mavs' fans cheering for AJ being honored by the Spurs.

Where does it all end? Hard to say. The great Lakers and Celtics teams of the 80's all had three HoFers in the starting lineups. Could we say the same of TD, TP and Manu at the end of their careers? It is a definite possibility, especially with additional championships.

To someone's point early, the "modern" era for the Spurs should see DRob, TD, TP and Manu in the rafters. Anything beyond that would have to be very subjective, and I think it is a short list of Sean, AJ and Bowen. I am comfortable with Silas, Moore and Gervin from the early days as a representation of an era. I am comfortable with Sean because of what he went through. I am not comfortable with Avery going up there now, nor am I comfortable with Bruce going up there at some point in the future were his career to stop right now. Not sure what to do with Horry, because what he has done for the Spurs he also did for the Rockets and Lakers. Rewarding his Game 6 heroics against Detroit would be the same as rewarding AJ for his one shot.

I think that after close to 40 years in existence once some of these players retire, to have less than 10 numbers retired, with a possibility of half of those being numbers from guys in the HoF is fair.

[SRJ]

The Hall Of Fame is the institution which honors great players. Avery Johnson can only get in there the same way I do - a weekend visit to Springfield, Massachusetts.

The retirement of a jersey is a different matter entirely, and Avery Johnson is certainly worthy of that honor.

I will admit that there is a significant amount of overlap between the HOF and retired jerseys. For instance, George Gervin and David Robinson are two players in our history who were known the world over as being elite players, and their induction into Springfield (Robinson isn't eligible yet, but he's a mortal lock) confirms that. But jersey retirements also honor those players who weren't necessarily among the best in the world, but who gave the franchise everything they had and represented it well.

Dave Twardzik's jersey was retired in Portland, Don Nelson's in Boston, Brad Davis' in Dallas, Al Attles' in Oakland - they were about as good, more or less, as Avery Johnson. And while none were perennial All-Stars, they provided consistency for their clubs. They were hard-working, self-made players who produced for the team and also had value in non-statistical ways.

I always admired and respected Avery Johnson; and while I'll admit he can rub the wrong way at times, tell me who's worse to have: a guy who runs his mouth sometimes but works constantly, like a dog, to improve himself and his game, or a guy who doesn't make waves and coasts along on big talent? I'll take Avery Johnson and his kind over the potential All-Stars that don't work hard, that abuse their bodies, that have no love for the game unless they are the Big Men on Campus.

Richard Dumas was a huge talent - but not one team will be retiring his jersey. Ditto Glenn Robinson, Joe Barry Carroll, Len Bias, Oliver Miller, Isaiah Rider, and on and on. Guys like Avery Johnson deserve honors for being true professionals, and I'm glad he'll have his day in San Antonio.

And if it took Don Harris opening his big fat mouth to get it done, then I'm glad he did. We can hang #20 up there too.

[SenorSpur]

The Hall Of Fame is the institution which honors great players. Avery Johnson can only get in there the same way I do - a weekend visit to Springfield, Massachusetts.

The retirement of a jersey is a different matter entirely, and Avery Johnson is certainly worthy of that honor.

I will admit that there is a significant amount of overlap between the HOF and retired jerseys. For instance, George Gervin and David Robinson are two players in our history who were known the world over as being elite players, and their induction into Springfield (Robinson isn't eligible yet, but he's a mortal lock) confirms that. But jersey retirements also honor those players who weren't necessarily among the best in the world, but who gave the franchise everything they had and represented it well.

Dave Twardzik's jersey was retired in Portland, Don Nelson's in Boston, Brad Davis' in Dallas, Al Attles' in Oakland - they were about as good, more or less, as Avery Johnson. And while none were perennial All-Stars, they provided consistency for their clubs. They were hard-working, self-made players who produced for the team and also had value in non-statistical ways.

I always admired and respected Avery Johnson; and while I'll admit he can rub the wrong way at times, tell me who's worse to have: a guy who runs his mouth sometimes but works constantly, like a dog, to improve himself and his game, or a guy who doesn't make waves and coasts along on big talent? I'll take Avery Johnson and his kind over the potential All-Stars that don't work hard, that abuse their bodies, that have no love for the game unless they are the Big Men on Campus.

Richard Dumas was a huge talent - but not one team will be retiring his jersey. Ditto Glenn Robinson, Joe Barry Carroll, Len Bias, Oliver Miller, Isaiah Rider, and on and on. Guys like Avery Johnson deserve honors for being true professionals, and I'm glad he'll have his day in San Antonio.

And if it took Don Harris opening his big fat mouth to get it done, then I'm glad he did. We can hang #20 up there too.

What the hell did Don Harris have to do with this?

[whottt]

Speak more to this "attitude" of Avery's. Was there an arrogance? Are you referring to his coaching stint or his post-Spurs playing days or both?



Both...

#1. He's always had a mouth on him and had a kind of an attitude of...everyone on this team is a scrub but me. It's never his fault...even thought it usually was.


Other examples...


Intimidating young and rookie players on the team with his, "it's my team" attitude...lead to him getting into a fight with Malik Rose, getting called out on the bus by Steve Kerr.


When asked about the Spurs chances with Parker, he responded, "they're sending a boy to do a man's job". A statement which Parker then promptly shoved straight up his ass.


When Manu was first signed, AJ's # 6 was directly handed to Manu by Pop and RC...at which point Don Harris raised a big stink and got all the AJ homers to call in and bitch about giving AJ's jersey to Manu.


The Spurs then took the jersey back from Manu...at which point AJ gave his opinion on the subject, "let him make his own number".

A statement which Manu then shoved up his ass, as a rookie, much like Parker did as a 20 year old.


There are other things he's done...AJ was flat out cancerous his final season here, bitching about losing his starting job in midseason among other things...






Point blank...winning the 99 title and the media latching on to the cute, "little general" nick name...went straight to AJ's head.


Then he went from a pushy bossy guard, to being an unjustifiably arrogant, pushy and bossy guard.






AJ had a fiery demeanor and underdog qualities that endeared him to a lot of fans...however, he's been shitting on the franchise for a long time and these people have let their AJ fandom over-ride the Spurs fandom to the detriment of our retired jerseys.

Plain and simple.


AJ could have stayed a guy you pulled for after Stoudamire ran his mouth and AJ owned him...if he'd just kept his mouth shut. Insteading he started thinking he was a HOF caliber PG.



I personally wouldn't care if he was getting in based on his mascot value..., it's just that, for a guy getting in on mascot value, he sure has been a dickhead....it's evem worse when people try to argue he was a great point guard. '

He was not a great point guard....has was good enough to be a barely passable weakest link on an NBA chamoion featuring one of the greatest bigmen tandem's and defenses in history...that's the extent of his greatness.


He could not shoot.
He could not defend.
He could not get the FT line.
He could not shoot FT's when he got there.
He did not get steals.
He did not rebound.
And his biggest crime...He was useless to pass it to out of a double team.

And unlike Parker, who worked his butt off and improved his game...AJ's game never improved much...he did get a little bit better at hitting his wide open 15 footer, and he did become slightly more willing to take it...but that's about it. He was a liability in every other aspect of the game.


What he did...was use his quickness to get easy layups when David Robinon and later Robinson and Duncan were getting assraped in the post and AJ was the guy being dared to shoot....he wouldn't shoot it...he'd take it to the basket...and he was a complete and total liability in fourth quarters of big games, becuase he couldn't shoot, and he usually wouldn't even try.

The other thing he did was be bossy and tell everyone they were playing like crap when he was the guy least deserving of being on the court...




AJ could not even shoot FT's worth a flip...



Forgot the most important thing he did and his one true meaningful contribution to a Spurs title...and that was recruiting Mario Elie to play for the Spurs.

He was the leader of that 99 team...


I think his jersey is more deserving of retirment than AJ's...AJ should maybe get an asterisk on Mario's jersey or something...that's about it.



Mario Elie was the guy who taught this team to win titles...like AJ he was bossy and would get in guys faces...unlike AJ, Mario stepped up when the pressure was at it's greatest, with more than just his mouth, and made the jobs of Robison and Duncan easier with on court contributions, punishing teams that tried to clog the paint...AJ never punished anyone when they attempted double teams and clogged the paint.

[SRJ]

What the hell did Don Harris have to do with this?

If you read the thread, Don Harris has been mentioned at least twice in connection with this. I was responding to those sentiments.

[barbacoataco]

That last post kind of tells it like it is. Avery was never a great player, but he did get better over his career. His credentials-- he was the Spurs PG on and off for almost a decade, and he was the starting PG on the 1999 team. I think tose credentials would get a lot of players #'s retired. We're not talking about the HOF. If you look at MLB and other NBA teams there are plenty of mediocre players with retired #'s. Avery is on the bubble but I'm not surprised. Duncan, Manu, Parker and Bowen should join him.

[howbouthemspurs]

That is so freakin awesome..He definately deserves it! All you haters dont know shit!

[whottt]

Bruce Bowen is 10 times more deserving of jersey retirement than AJ is...

These best thing about AJ's retirement is that it pretty much makes Bowen a lock...

I personally think Horry is more deserving of jersey retirement as well...

AJ's getting in for a shot...Horry had more in one fourth quarter/OT of a playoff game than AJ had in his entire career.

[Hemotivo]

Other examples...


Intimidating young and rookie players on the team with his, "it's my team" attitude...lead to him getting into a fight with Malik Rose, getting called out on the bus by Steve Kerr.


When asked about the Spurs chances with Parker, he responded, "they're sending a boy to do a man's job". A statement which Parker then promptly shoved straight up his ass.


When Manu was first signed, AJ's # 6 was directly handed to Manu by Pop and RC...at which point Don Harris raised a big stink and got all the AJ homers to call in and bitch about giving AJ's jersey to Manu.


The Spurs then took the jersey back from Manu...at which point AJ gave his opinion on the subject, "let him make his own number".

A statement which Manu then shoved up his ass, as a rookie, much like Parker did as a 20 year old.


There are other things he's done...AJ was flat out cancerous his final season here, bitching about losing his starting job in midseason among other things...






Point blank...winning the 99 title and the media latching on to the cute, "little general" nick name...went straight to AJ's head.


Then he went from a pushy bossy guard, to being an unjustifiably arrogant, pushy and bossy guard.






AJ had a fiery demeanor and underdog qualities that endeared him to a lot of fans...however, he's been shitting on the franchise for a long time and these people have let their AJ fandom over-ride the Spurs fandom to the detriment of our retired jerseys.

Plain and simple.


AJ could have stayed a guy you pulled for after Stoudamire ran his mouth and AJ owned him...if he'd just kept his mouth shut. Insteading he started thinking he was a HOF caliber PG.



I personally wouldn't care if he was getting in based on his mascot value..., it's just that, for a guy getting in on mascot value, he sure has been a dickhead....it's evem worse when people try to argue he was a great point guard. '

He was not a great point guard....has was good enough to be a barely passable weakest link on an NBA chamoion featuring one of the greatest bigmen tandem's and defenses in history...that's the extent of his greatness.


He could not shoot.
He could not defend.
He could not get the FT line.
He could not shoot FT's when he got there.
He did not get steals.
He did not rebound.
And his biggest crime...He was useless to pass it to out of a double team.

And unlike Parker, who worked his butt off and improved his game...AJ's game never improved much...he did get a little bit better at hitting his wide open 15 footer, and he did become slightly more willing to take it...but that's about it. He was a liability in every other aspect of the game.


What he did...was use his quickness to get easy layups when David Robinon and later Robinson and Duncan were getting assraped in the post and AJ was the guy being dared to shoot....he wouldn't shoot it...he'd take it to the basket...and he was a complete and total liability in fourth quarters of big games, becuase he couldn't shoot, and he usually wouldn't even try.

The other thing he did was be bossy and tell everyone they were playing like crap when he was the guy least deserving of being on the court...




AJ could not even shoot FT's worth a flip...



Forgot the most important thing he did and his one true meaningful contribution to a Spurs title...and that was recruiting Mario Elie to play for the Spurs.

He was the leader of that 99 team...


I think his jersey is more deserving of retirment than AJ's...AJ should maybe get an asterisk on Mario's jersey or something...that's about it.



Mario Elie was the guy who taught this team to win titles...like AJ he was bossy and would get in guys faces...unlike AJ, Mario stepped up when the pressure was at it's greatest, with more than just his mouth, and made the jobs of Robison and Duncan easier with on court contributions, punishing teams that tried to clog the paint...AJ never punished anyone when they attempted double teams and clogged the paint.
:clap

[SenorSpur]

The Hall Of Fame is the institution which honors great players. Avery Johnson can only get in there the same way I do - a weekend visit to Springfield, Massachusetts.

The retirement of a jersey is a different matter entirely, and Avery Johnson is certainly worthy of that honor.

I will admit that there is a significant amount of overlap between the HOF and retired jerseys. For instance, George Gervin and David Robinson are two players in our history who were known the world over as being elite players, and their induction into Springfield (Robinson isn't eligible yet, but he's a mortal lock) confirms that. But jersey retirements also honor those players who weren't necessarily among the best in the world, but who gave the franchise everything they had and represented it well.

Dave Twardzik's jersey was retired in Portland, Don Nelson's in Boston, Brad Davis' in Dallas, Al Attles' in Oakland - they were about as good, more or less, as Avery Johnson. And while none were perennial All-Stars, they provided consistency for their clubs. They were hard-working, self-made players who produced for the team and also had value in non-statistical ways.

I was in Portland for a Spurs road game a couple of years ago and was shocked to see that they retired the jerseys of such scrubs like Larry Steele, Lloyd Neal, and Jeff Petrie. These hung beside the notables of Walton, Lucas & Twardzik. I remember thinking to myself, "Damn, did they retire the whole '78 championsihp team?"

This not to endorse the Blazers or infer that they've set some sort of league precedent or anything. I believe it's more indicative of a franchise that sought to recognize most or all key contributors to the only championship team they ever had.

[sandman]

That is so freakin awesome..He definately deserves it! All you haters dont know shit!

My son says "freakin awesome", but he is in the 7th grade.

Anything else to add other than "I said it so that settles it"?

[SRJ]

I believe it's more indicative of a franchise that sought to recognize most or all key contributors to the only championship team they ever had.

Well, there you have it.

Four of the five starters from the 1999 champions, after Duncan retires, will be hanging in the rafters. Mario Elie was very good for us, but he spent two seasons out of a long career in San Antonio. Unlike the other starters, Elie didn't spend most of his career in San Antonio.

There is something special about that first title - fortunately, we have three more on top of that, and that is why Parker, Manu, and Bowen deserve the same honor that Avery will get.

[SRJ]

BTW Geoff Petrie was not a scrub. He was a co-ROY who could really score until injuries derailed his career early.

[SenorSpur]

Well, there you have it.

Four of the five starters from the 1999 champions, after Duncan retires, will be hanging in the rafters. Mario Elie was very good for us, but he spent two seasons out of a long career in San Antonio. Unlike the other starters, Elie didn't spend most of his career in San Antonio.

There is something special about that first title - fortunately, we have three more on top of that, and that is why Parker, Manu, and Bowen deserve the same honor that Avery will get.

Well ponder this: Should the Spurs repeat as champions, that will give "Big Shot Rob" 3 championships in the Silver and Black. Do the Spurs then retire his jersey?

[sandman]

Well ponder this: Should the Spurs repeat as champions, that will give "Big Shot Rob" 3 championships in the Silver and Black. Do the Spurs then retire his jersey?

Even worse: Beno will have three rings. Does he go in the rafters? After all, if he was that bad would the Spurs have kept him around for for 4 years on a championship caliber team...

God, that is frustrating to think about Beno constantly failing expectations, yet having three rings. I think I just threw up in my mouth.

[Jimcs50]

Who owes me? I bet someone in here a couple of years ago that AJ's number would be retired....I think it was Whottt. Pay up!!!!

[SRJ]

Well ponder this: Should the Spurs repeat as champions, that will give "Big Shot Rob" 3 championships in the Silver and Black. Do the Spurs then retire his jersey?

Horry is a tough case, no doubt. He's a better overall player than Avery, but Avery was a starter. Additionally, my personal criteria starts with longtime Spurs. Robert Horry played six plus seasons for the Lakers; he would need to play the 2008-09 season to get to six seasons with the Spurs.

But Horry was so heroic in game five of the 2005 Finals, in a series that went seven games, that I'd probably say yes.

[Hemotivo]

what about Malik?

[2centsworth]

Avery was clutch his entire career.

His playoff numbers always increased over his regular. Plus, he consistently hit big time jump shots in crucial situations. game 6 against houston in '95 and ofcourse the finals come to mind. However, I remember Avery always showed up in the big games.

[2centsworth]

what about Malik?
i would bet the farm that is not going to happen and neither should it.

[SRJ]

what about Malik?

I'm a big Malik Rose fan; I would enjoy seeing his jersey retired, but even I don't think he deserves it.

[SenorSpur]

Both...

#1. He's always had a mouth on him and had a kind of an attitude of...everyone on this team is a scrub but me. It's never his fault...even thought it usually was.


Other examples...


Intimidating young and rookie players on the team with his, "it's my team" attitude...lead to him getting into a fight with Malik Rose, getting called out on the bus by Steve Kerr.


When asked about the Spurs chances with Parker, he responded, "they're sending a boy to do a man's job". A statement which Parker then promptly shoved straight up his ass.


When Manu was first signed, AJ's # 6 was directly handed to Manu by Pop and RC...at which point Don Harris raised a big stink and got all the AJ homers to call in and bitch about giving AJ's jersey to Manu.


The Spurs then took the jersey back from Manu...at which point AJ gave his opinion on the subject, "let him make his own number".

A statement which Manu then shoved up his ass, as a rookie, much like Parker did as a 20 year old.


There are other things he's done...AJ was flat out cancerous his final season here, bitching about losing his starting job in midseason among other things...






Point blank...winning the 99 title and the media latching on to the cute, "little general" nick name...went straight to AJ's head.


Then he went from a pushy bossy guard, to being an unjustifiably arrogant, pushy and bossy guard.






AJ had a fiery demeanor and underdog qualities that endeared him to a lot of fans...however, he's been shitting on the franchise for a long time and these people have let their AJ fandom over-ride the Spurs fandom to the detriment of our retired jerseys.

Plain and simple.


AJ could have stayed a guy you pulled for after Stoudamire ran his mouth and AJ owned him...if he'd just kept his mouth shut. Insteading he started thinking he was a HOF caliber PG.



I personally wouldn't care if he was getting in based on his mascot value..., it's just that, for a guy getting in on mascot value, he sure has been a dickhead....it's evem worse when people try to argue he was a great point guard. '

He was not a great point guard....has was good enough to be a barely passable weakest link on an NBA chamoion featuring one of the greatest bigmen tandem's and defenses in history...that's the extent of his greatness.


He could not shoot.
He could not defend.
He could not get the FT line.
He could not shoot FT's when he got there.
He did not get steals.
He did not rebound.
And his biggest crime...He was useless to pass it to out of a double team.

And unlike Parker, who worked his butt off and improved his game...AJ's game never improved much...he did get a little bit better at hitting his wide open 15 footer, and he did become slightly more willing to take it...but that's about it. He was a liability in every other aspect of the game.


What he did...was use his quickness to get easy layups when David Robinon and later Robinson and Duncan were getting assraped in the post and AJ was the guy being dared to shoot....he wouldn't shoot it...he'd take it to the basket...and he was a complete and total liability in fourth quarters of big games, becuase he couldn't shoot, and he usually wouldn't even try.

The other thing he did was be bossy and tell everyone they were playing like crap when he was the guy least deserving of being on the court...




AJ could not even shoot FT's worth a flip...



Forgot the most important thing he did and his one true meaningful contribution to a Spurs title...and that was recruiting Mario Elie to play for the Spurs.

He was the leader of that 99 team...


I think his jersey is more deserving of retirment than AJ's...AJ should maybe get an asterisk on Mario's jersey or something...that's about it.



Mario Elie was the guy who taught this team to win titles...like AJ he was bossy and would get in guys faces...unlike AJ, Mario stepped up when the pressure was at it's greatest, with more than just his mouth, and made the jobs of Robison and Duncan easier with on court contributions, punishing teams that tried to clog the paint...AJ never punished anyone when they attempted double teams and clogged the paint.

Wow! These are really stinging claims against The General.

Since I live in Dallas, I hear a lot of his Avery's coaching philosophies and soundbites on the radio. Many of which you would expect from a former Spurs player who honed his skills at the University of CIAPop. I remember him repeatingly telling his Mavs team about how he was an undrafted, unheralded, free agent PG, who could only drive left. He went onto say that "even though they knew I was driving left, they still couldn't stop me". Are you kidding me? Since when were you ever on the NBA All-Star ballot?

I sensed that Avery had sort of an asshole factor to him, but I wasn't aware that he was that much of an arrogant prick. And for what? Michael Jordan could afford to be an asshole if he wanted because his game, competitive drive and wills were unparalleled.

Avery, on the other hand, was a scrub who fell into to the perfect situation. As many have stated, he developed his game just enough to parlay that into a prolonged career. He also demonstrated himself as a capable leader, for the most part, and he made good professional contacts. That said, he has NO PLATFORM to think he was better than a mere average player in this league. There's no doubt that he drove the mindset of that team, but is also sounds like he was equally as much a cancer as he was proclaimed a leader.

All that said, I'm really starting to struggle with this jersey retirement thing.

[Whisky Dog]

AJ reminds me of one of those religious evangelists that are often on television. They talk a big game and come off like they're the greatest thing with all the wisdom, but behind the words there isn't much substance. I hear all of his rants here in the Dallas media too, and the funny thing is that people ate it up. I think that's starting to change since his teams are being exposed as chokers two years in a row.

One funny thing to see if you can find it is his speech to the New Orleans Saints last season. He made it this grand spectacle about how he raised himself up from his bootstraps to have a great career and lead the Mavs to the finals as a coach, but he omitted the giant choke job that took place once they got there.

[saporvida]

god i cant stand aj... screw that little bastard!

[FuzzyLumpkins]

johnson is the most overrated player in the history of Spurs basketball.

I wold rather us retire Mario Elies or Jaren JAckson's number then Johnson.

Everyone wants to talk about how he made that shot in 99 against NY but want to forget that other than that one spot on the floor he couldnt hit anywhere else for his entire career and that single spot for about a 100 game stretch from 98 to 99.

He was a liability on defense as he was too slow to keep up with quicker PGs and too weak to muscle anyone in the game up short of Bogues.

His leadership was exemplified by attacking Malik in the showers after Rose had called him out in 2000 when the team wasnt playing well in no small part due to Johnson's substandard play.

Basically Johnson didnt turn the ball over much and was better at point then Vinn Del Negro and for that people think he was a agift from god. Johnson reminds me of Trent 'Just Dont Screw It Up' Dilfer.

The fact that Johnson is getting his number retired is just demonstrative of how stupid people can be.

[whottt]

Avery was clutch his entire career.



:lmao


OMGGGGGGGGGG


That's just soooo...........wrong.


It's like the most wrong and inaccurate statement in history.


It's like saying the Japanese nuked us in WWII...only, more wrong.

[whottt]

The Wright brothers invented the sumbarmine.[/2cents]

[samikeyp]

johnson is the most overrated player in the history of Spurs basketball.

I would still put Alfredrick Hughes ahead of him.

One clutch moment does not a clutch player make.

[whottt]

There's no grade for mascot appeal...IMO, that's the only criteria for which a case can be made for his jersey retirement....now that's he's stopped acting like a dickhead it doesn't bother me near as much as it did.


It's just sad that stupid people are going to take this to mean he was a great point guard...despite the planet of evidence to the contrary. He wasn't a great point guard....in fact, I'd say he's inarguably the worst point guard to ever start for an NBA champion.

[Bruno]

They should show this video when they will raise his jersey :
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=DTsu--pVxVY

[FuzzyLumpkins]

There's no grade for mascot appeal...IMO, that's the only criteria for which a case can be made for his jersey retirement....now that's he's stopped acting like a dickhead it doesn't bother me near as much as it did.


It's just sad that stupid people are going to take this to mean he was a great point guard...despite the planet of evidence to the contrary. He wasn't a great point guard....in fact, I'd say he's inarguably the worst point guard to ever start for an NBA champion.

well then retire the coyotes number. 2! up in the rafters sounds more appealing than Johnson.

[SenorSpur]

AJ reminds me of one of those religious evangelists that are often on television. They talk a big game and come off like they're the greatest thing with all the wisdom, but behind the words there isn't much substance. I hear all of his rants here in the Dallas media too, and the funny thing is that people ate it up. I think that's starting to change since his teams are being exposed as chokers two years in a row.

One funny thing to see if you can find it is his speech to the New Orleans Saints last season. He made it this grand spectacle about how he raised himself up from his bootstraps to have a great career and lead the Mavs to the finals as a coach, but he omitted the giant choke job that took place once they got there.

AJ is certainly a stubborn bastard. Perhaps even a bit dellusioinal when it comes to his abilities as both a player and a coach. While his coaching record is impressive, his playoff track record SUCKS! He doesn't dwell on this much during interviews either.

A personal top 10 list of Avery's coaching and personnel blunders include the following:

1. Burning his team out through an 82-game schedule and a first-round loss during last season's playoffs.

2. Allowing his team and himself to become consumed with their arrogance after going up 2-0 in the NBA Finals versus Miami.

3. Moving his team to a different hotel after Game 4 loss to the Heat in the 2006 NBA Finals, thinking this would get them off South Beach and force them to refocus. Too late. The meltdown starting in the 4th quarter of Game 3.

4. Investing time and money into Erick Dampier. Thinking he could inspire this guy.

5. Not turning the PG position over to Devin Harris two seasons ago. Again showing his disdain for rookies and their mistakes. Instead, trusting Jason Terry to run the PG position.

6. Not taking input from his assistance coaches, who have expressed a desire to run an occassional zone defense set. Apparently AJ doesn't believe in zone defense.

7. Doug Christie experiment - nuff said.

8. Antonie Walker experiment - nuff said

9. Not taking the Golden State Warriors seriously in last season's playoffs. Basically underestimating the edge and motivation of Warriors coach Don Nelson

10. Thinking that he'll ever beat the Spurs in a 7-game playoff series ever again during the Duncan tenure! :elephant

I've always rooted hard against the Mavs - mainly because of Cuban. I've never bought into this shit about rooting for the Mavs because of Avery. All these revelations make me spew some venom against Avery too.

[Walter Craparita]

Let's send it up on game 7 of the WCF when he knocks the Spurs out of the playoffs. :pctoss

Honoring the enemy during the dynasty run. WTF.

[urunobili]

AJ was certainly the a huge part of the mental fabric of that 1999 championship squad. Having Mario Elie at his side was also a tremendous asset - along with D-Rob, TD and others.

That 1999 championship is the only one AJ will sniff. Because he certainly will not, as a head coach - at least not during the Duncan era.

Anybody care to see AJ come back to the organization as head coach once Pop retires?
he will have his first championship as a coach with us!
i'm not really sure how to feel about this...

[SenorSpur]

johnson is the most overrated player in the history of Spurs basketball.

I wold rather us retire Mario Elies or Jaren JAckson's number then Johnson.

Everyone wants to talk about how he made that shot in 99 against NY but want to forget that other than that one spot on the floor he couldnt hit anywhere else for his entire career and that single spot for about a 100 game stretch from 98 to 99.


Funny you should bring this up. I recently watched a replay of that entire series-clinching victory versus the Knicks. Duncan, Elie and D-Rob were stellar. Avery missed a few shots until he hit that most famous last shot. What I remember most, is one sequence during which he made a bad pass that resulted in a turnover. Pop calls timeout. AJ goes to the bench and starts to chastize a teammate.

[SRJ]

johnson is the most overrated player in the history of Spurs basketball.

I wold rather us retire Mario Elies or Jaren JAckson's number then Johnson.

Everyone wants to talk about how he made that shot in 99 against NY but want to forget that other than that one spot on the floor he couldnt hit anywhere else for his entire career and that single spot for about a 100 game stretch from 98 to 99.

He was a liability on defense as he was too slow to keep up with quicker PGs and too weak to muscle anyone in the game up short of Bogues.

His leadership was exemplified by attacking Malik in the showers after Rose had called him out in 2000 when the team wasnt playing well in no small part due to Johnson's substandard play.

Basically Johnson didnt turn the ball over much and was better at point then Vinn Del Negro and for that people think he was a agift from god. Johnson reminds me of Trent 'Just Dont Screw It Up' Dilfer.

The fact that Johnson is getting his number retired is just demonstrative of how stupid people can be.

I love how someone can make a post like this and then call out other people for being stupid. Here, let's take it point by point:


I wold rather us retire Mario Elies or Jaren JAckson's number then Johnson.

Mario Elie was a better player than Avery. He was also a Spur for two seasons. And Jaren Jackson sucked balls except for the 1999 playoffs. Don't rely on your obviously faulty memory to tell you that - go to www.basketball-reference.com and compare Avery Johnson and Jaren Jackson. After you see the results for yourself (assuming you can interpret them correctly), go outside and slap yourself in the face with a salmon for being as slow-witted as you are.


Everyone wants to talk about how he made that shot in 99 against NY but want to forget that other than that one spot on the floor he couldnt hit anywhere else for his entire career and that single spot for about a 100 game stretch from 98 to 99.

That's why AJ routinely shot 48% per season.


He was a liability on defense as he was too slow to keep up with quicker PGs and too weak to muscle anyone in the game up short of Bogues.

Too slow? One of Avery's few physical assets was his speed. Not strong? Avery benched 400+.

His defensive liabilities were his height and his hands. You could post up Avery Johnson, but for some reason very few teams actually did.


His leadership was exemplified by attacking Malik in the showers after Rose had called him out in 2000 when the team wasnt playing well in no small part due to Johnson's substandard play.

Yes, Avery did fight Malik Rose in the shower once. Jeez, you act like this is TO crapping on Donovan McNabb. One incident does not define a player.


Basically Johnson didnt turn the ball over much and was better at point then Vinn Del Negro and for that people think he was a agift from god. Johnson reminds me of Trent 'Just Dont Screw It Up' Dilfer.

And you know what? You can win with those type of QBs, and you can win with those type of PGs. Believe it or not, you don't need an All-Star at every position!

People who like Avery Johnson appreciate the fact that the guy worked his ass off to improve every single year and his professionalism.


The fact that Johnson is getting his number retired is just demonstrative of how stupid people can be.

The attendants down at the home will be tracking you down soon, so you may not get to read this response for a few days.

[whottt]

10. Thinking that he'll ever beat the Spurs in a 7-game playoff series ever again during the Duncan tenure! :elephant







Ehhh....Pop has some kind of guilt complex concerning AJ...he's going to suck as a coach against AJ and force his team to choke. Dunno why...

Maybe after the jersey retriement Pop won't feel obligated to tank against AJ...one can hope.

[SenorSpur]

Ehhh....Pop has some kind of guilt complex concerning AJ...he's going to suck as a coach against AJ and force his team to choke. Dunno why...


In the back of my mind, I always thought that.

[whottt]

I


That's why AJ routinely shot 48% per season.
.


AJ didn't routinely "shoot" anything.

If you mean he laid it up when possible and forced it in to a triple teamed Drob the rest of the time, especially in the fourth quarters of playoff games...then yeah, I guess that's shooting.


AJ didn't shoot...period.

And there's a reason he couldn't hold a job as a 3rd stringer on any team that didn't have an All Time Great NBA bigman.




AJ is Jacque Vaughn...only Vaughn has a better shot...and defense.

[SRJ]

Yeah...Pop wants to take it easy on AJ. Good thing he didn't coach in the Finals against his best friend or anything, or we would have lost the 2005 NBA Finals.

Good thing Pop's not good friends with Don Nelson, or we would have lost to the Mavericks in 2001 and 2003.

Come the fuck on!

[SenorSpur]

I still have nightmares watching opponents "sag off" AJ, while packing the paint to prevent D-Rob from shooting. Teams practically dared AJ to shoot the ball.

[SRJ]

AJ didn't routinely "shoot" anything.

If you mean he laid it up when possible and forced it in to a triple teamed Drob the rest of the time, especially in the fourth quarters of playoff games...then yeah, I guess that's shooting.


AJ didn't shoot...period.

I guess if you have to manufacture a crap argument to contend with a substantial body of evidence, go ahead. We can't verify anything you say, and I suppose that's what you rely on.


And there's a reason he couldn't hold a job as a 3rd stringer on any team that didn't have an All Time Great NBA bigman.

Yeah, the 1994 Warriors were loaded with great bigs.


AJ is Jacque Vaughn...only Vaughn has a better shot...and defense.

Vaughn has a better shot :lmao

[ducks]

I think it is time people here email the spurs on how they feel
postive or negative
I think they can also email the sa paper

put up or shut up

[whottt]

Anyone that thinks AJ could shoot should have to spend eternity playing C as the best interior scoring option on hell's hoop team big, with AJ as their point guard...

[ducks]

Is Aj As Overrated As Scola?

[SRJ]

Is Aj As Overrated As Scola?

Now that's funny!

Hell, we can retire Scola's jersey next!

[whottt]

I guess if you have to manufacture a crap argument to contend with a substantial body of evidence, go ahead. We can't verify anything you say, and I suppose that's what you rely on.

LMAO...

What you actually mean is you are going by stats and since the stats don't differentiate between layups and actual shots, you are inclined to believe he could shoot. Since you obviously never saw him play if you think he coud shoot. Either that, or you have Alzheimers.


There are like 2 people in the world that claim AJ could shoot...

You
And his mother.

Notice I didn't include AJ on that list...because even he doesn't make that claim. In fact he'll be the first one to say he couldn't shoot.










Vaughn has a better shot :lmao


He actually does...




Someday, when you learn enough of basketball, particularly playoff basketball, to understand when and why teams will double team...then you can get back to me....and tell me what a great shooter AJ was.


And then you can explain why he only made 1 3 pointer in his entire playoff career...that's one less than Nazr Mohammed by the way.


That's 2 less than Tony Parker in his first playoff game as a 19 year old rookie.



I know, I know...AJ was such a great shooter, teams never doubled off of him...he was never open.

[whottt]

AJ has high FG% becuase he dind't shoot, not just that he couldn't, he wouldn't...not even when he was being dared to do so.

That's a real cast iron bitch in the fourth quarters of playoff games.

[picnroll]

If DRob had a Nash or Kidd or Stockton, with his physical gifts, he'd have been by far the greatest P&R player of all time. Avery equaled a waste of possibilities.

[SenorSpur]

If DRob had a Nash or Kidd or Stockton, with his physical gifts, he'd have been by far the greatest P&R player of all time. Avery equaled a waste of possibilities.

Further proof that Spurs management, at that time, wasted a large part of Robinson's HOF career by not surrounding him better talent.

[timvp]

Good to see the AJ haters in full throat. AJ has been shaking off haters since high school. It wouldn't be right if no one was bashing him. Props :tu

I don't get why people still don't understand why AJ deserves this. He had a huge part in bringing the Spurs their first championship ... which opened the door for everything we see today. Without that first one, the dominoes don't fall the same way and this team doesn't win three more.

True, he was never that good of a player. Although considering he had barely any natural talent, he made himself into as good of a player as possible. AJ wasn't much of an athlete, wasn't fast, wasn't a born shooter and was about 5-foot-9 ... but he worked on his game and became a championship caliber point guard in 1999.

It's laughable when people try to say someone else (for example Mario Elie) was more of an emotional leader for the Spurs during the 1999 season. AJ was far and away the emotional leader. Moreso than Elie. Moreso than Pop. Moreso than anyone you want to name on the Spurs.

During the lockout, AJ was the one who got all the players together and had them working practicing. When the Spurs started off slowly, Pop threw away his offense and let AJ install a new offense. During the rest of the season, AJ was the one who kept everyone in line. During the playoffs, he was the one who never let the Spurs stop believing that some small quiet town in the middle of nowhere could be the home of NBA champions.

I oftentimes say AJ invented Spurs Basketball and I still hold that as true. Spurs fans take for granted how everyone in the Spurs organization only cares about winning championships. That environment didn't create itself.

He also helped Pop become the coach he is today. In fact, AJ was more of the coach of the 1999 team than Pop was. It was his offense the Spurs ran. When scouting other teams, AJ would often get the last call on what defense the Spurs would run.

As far as his number retirement goes, he more than deserves it. As a fan, all I care about is championships. I don't care if you lead the league in assists or have commercials or win the MVP. The only thing I hope for as a fan is a championship. And AJ was a huge, huge part of the first championship.

Without AJ, the Spurs don't win the 1999 championship. A more talented point guard wouldn't have been enough. As Spurs fans, we should be able to tell by now that championships aren't won with talent alone. You need the drive, the wisdom, the determination and the belief. AJ had that in abundance.

I remain thankful today for all AJ has done for the team I root for. He helped carry this franchise from annual pretender to annual contender. Other Spurs fans might dislike AJ or think that his jersey shouldn't have been retired, that's find and it's your right as a fan. But just know that every time you celebrate a championship, you are celebrating the winning culture that AJ had a huge part in founding.

Thank you, AJ. You helped us all Believe.

[mavs>spurs2]

I don't get all the Avery hate

The man was a decent point guard who busted his ass for the Spurs organization for years. Without him, you might as well kiss the 99 title goodbye because although Avery wasn't great, no team can win the championship with Steve Kerr or a young scrub Antonio Daniels running the show.

[SRJ]

LMAO...

What you actually mean is you are going by stats and since the stats don't differentiate between layups and actual shots, you are incline to believe he could shoot.

I watched the great majority of Spurs games during Avery's tenure. And I don't claim that Avery was a good shooter, but he was a competent one. He was reliable from his spots when open, and that's all you can ask from a guy who isn't the first or second option on the team.

Had Avery been a good shooter getting the same looks he got, he'd have been a 50-51% shooter, not 48%.

You make it sound like he hit 10 jumpshots a year, which wasn't the case. But then, you get all unglued and irrational when it comes to talking about players you like or don't like, so I'm not surprised that you're revising history.


There are like 2 people in the world that claim AJ could shoot...

You
And his mother.

Notice I didn't include AJ on that list...because even he doesn't make that claim. In fact he'll be the first one to say he couldn't shoot.

He wasn't a good shooter, but he was competent. If he wasn't, he wouldn't have played in over 1000 games. Hell, he wouldn't have played in 100 games.


Someday, when you learn enough of basketball, particularly playoff basketball, to understand when and why teams will double team...then you can get back to me....and tell me what a great shooter AJ was.

Oh, the old "you don't know basketball" card. Damn, I'm frightened.


And then you can explain why he only made 1 3 pointer in his entire playoff career...that's one less than Nazr Mohammed by the way.

That's 2 less than Tony Parker in his first playoff game as a 19 year old rookie.

Avery wasn't a three-point shooter and no one was counting on him for that. You calling out AJ for not making threes is like calling out Tony Parker for not blocking shots.


I know, I know...AJ was such a great shooter, teams never doubled off of him...he was never open.

That is a complete strawman argument. I never said that.

Anyway, I look forward to your next defense of David Robinson. Those I usually agree with, even if you do resort to whott tactics in the process.

[bigfan]

Hate to admit it but mavs>spurs is right, even if his signature should be spurs>mavs. Avery was a tough point guard that exhibited a good deal of leadership over the years, esp. the year of the first title. I like his number being retired due to the role he played on the team for many, many years. That said, TD, Ginobili and Parker are for sure and Bowen and Horry are strong maybes. We're gonna run out of numbers! Is Mitchells number retired by the way?

[SRJ]

If DRob had a Nash or Kidd or Stockton, with his physical gifts, he'd have been by far the greatest P&R player of all time. Avery equaled a waste of possibilities.


Further proof that Spurs management, at that time, wasted a large part of Robinson's HOF career by not surrounding him better talent.

So, you two are saying that it's easy to find players like Stockton, Kidd, or Nash? A great point guard is hard to find. Hell, we had a better PG than Avery from 1990 to 1992, but he left in free agency.

[whottt]

Good to see the AJ haters in full throat. AJ has been shaking off haters since high school. It wouldn't be right if no one was bashing him. Props :tu

I don't get why people still don't understand why AJ deserves this. He had a huge part in bringing the Spurs their first championship ... which opened the door for everything we see today. Without that first one, the dominoes don't fall the same way and this team doesn't win three more.

True, he was never that good of a player. Although considering he had barely any natural talent, he made himself into as good of a player as possible. AJ wasn't much of an athlete, wasn't fast, wasn't a born shooter and was about 5-foot-9 ... but he worked on his game and became a championship caliber point guard in 1999.

It's laughable when people try to say someone else (for example Mario Elie) was more of an emotional leader for the Spurs during the 1999 season. AJ was far and away the emotional leader. Moreso than Elie. Moreso than Pop. Moreso than anyone you want to name on the Spurs.

During the lockout, AJ was the one who got all the players together and had them working practicing. When the Spurs started off slowly, Pop threw away his offense and let AJ install a new offense. During the rest of the season, AJ was the one who kept everyone in line. During the playoffs, he was the one who never let the Spurs stop believing that some small quiet town in the middle of nowhere could be the home of NBA champions.

I oftentimes say AJ invented Spurs Basketball and I still hold that as true. Spurs fans take for granted how everyone in the Spurs organization only cares about winning championships. That environment didn't create itself.

He also helped Pop become the coach he is today. In fact, AJ was more of the coach of the 1999 team than Pop was. It was his offense the Spurs ran. When scouting other teams, AJ would often get the last call on what defense the Spurs would run.

As far as his number retirement goes, he more than deserves it. As a fan, all I care about is championships. I don't care if you lead the league in assists or have commercials or win the MVP. The only thing I hope for as a fan is a championship. And AJ was a huge, huge part of the first championship.

Without AJ, the Spurs don't win the 1999 championship. A more talented point guard wouldn't have been enough. As Spurs fans, we should be able to tell by now that championships aren't won with talent alone. You need the drive, the wisdom, the determination and the belief. AJ had that in abundance.

I remain thankful today for all AJ has done for the team I root for. He helped carry this franchise from annual pretender to annual contender. Other Spurs fans might dislike AJ or think that his jersey shouldn't have been retired, that's find and it's your right as a fan. But just know that every time you celebrate a championship, you are celebrating the winning culture that AJ had a huge part in founding.

Thank you, AJ. You helped us all Believe.



SRJ...


You notice even timvp doesn't claim he could shoot.



Textbook AJ defense honed over years...






It however, completely igrnores, under-rates, and alters Mario Elie's contributions to that team.

AJ was here for many a year, before Mario, and he was here after Mario...and Mario was the reason that team was unlike any Spurs team that came before.


Watching Mario hit confidence building and hope brining daggers was like getting to scratch an itch you have had your entire life and never been able to scratch before.


Mario Elie was the guy who taught the Spurs how to win Championship...not Avery Johnson.


Prior to Mario Elie, AJ's Spurs teams ended their seasons a whole lot like his Mavs teams. Ditto, after Mario.



Mario = winner


Don't worry Mario...some of us know, and we will never forget :tu




By the way timvp props....


Throwing Mario Elie under the bus to jock AJ is a new low :tu



What, the Pope wasn't available?

[SRJ]

Is Mitchells number retired by the way?

No.

#13 James Silas
#44 George Gervin
#00 Johnny Moore
#50 David Robinson
#32 Sean Elliott

are the current retirees.

[SRJ]

SRJ...


You notice even timvp doesn't claim he could shoot.

Dammit timvp! You were supposed to say AJ was a competent shooter so I could look good in front of whott!

[mavs>spurs2]

Elie should definately get his jersey retired too IMO

Good defender, mentally tough, and a great team leader

But what to I know im just a lowly mav fan

[SRJ]

Elie should definately get his jersey retired too IMO

Good defender, mentally tough, and a great team leader

But what to I know im just a lowly mav fan

Mario Elie was much more a Rocket than a Spur.

[picnroll]

I don't get why people still don't understand why AJ deserves this. He had a huge part in bringing the Spurs their first championship ... which opened the door for everything we see today. Without that first one, the dominoes don't fall the same way and this team doesn't win three more.
[/b].

Bull crap. Manu is the reason the dominoes fell into place after that. He opened the door, brought the fire in the Spurs belly and the balls to win the trophys of the 2000s. Avery had absolutely nothing to do with Manu coming. Matter of fact wasn'rt he the guy that said the Spurs couldn't win with Parker?

[Hemotivo]

Mario Elie was much more a Rocket than a Spur.
yep

[Hemotivo]

Bull crap. Manu is the reason the dominoes fell into place after that. He opened the door, brought the fire in the Spurs belly and the balls to win the trophys of the 2000s. Avery had absolutely nothing to do with Manu coming. Matter of fact wasn'rt he the guy that said the Spurs couldn't win with Parker?
I agree

[whottt]

Elie called out the entire freaking team about 15 games into the season...he basically called them a bunch of pussies...he was on David Robinson and Duncan's ass...he said it in the media and there was absolute pandemonium in SA and surrounding areas over his actions...

You can pinpoint that callout virtually to the day the Spurs turned that season and their franchise around, and it's something Pop has patented and uses about once per season to this day.


Mario Elie did that...but more importantly, any time the Spurs started doubt, he was there with a backbreaking dagger against the other team...it would almost make you cry.

I don't think Mario shot worth a flip that season PCT wise, but every freaking shot he made was a dagger.


As a long time Spurs fan...I knew the feelings of regular season optimism and I knew that sinking, oh shit here we go again feeling of the playoffs...the point at which their confidence and season, would begin to unravel with the lionshare of the blame undeservedly going on David Robinson...and it was usually a David Robinson being literally piled on by entire teams while his worthless sack of shit teamates failed to do anything except stand around...


The point..at which the teams said stop David Robinson and we beat this team...and sure enough, the shots would stop falling.


It was like clockwork....there is no mystery to it.



That stopped, when Mario Elie came to this team, that was when "oh shit here it comes again" was replaced by "hell fucking yeah" and a Mario Elie shimmy and fuck you to the other team.


It is inconcievable how anyone can give AJ that credit...when it was so clearly Mario Elie.


And if you doubt this...go watch David Robinson's retirement ceremony and the way he almost breaks into tears when he sees Elie there....Drob knows the guy who turned it around for him...


It is the greatest crime in all of Spursdom to ignore what Mario Elie did for this team, the change in mindset he brought, the mental toughness and killer instinct he instilled in this team, that remains to this day....he showed them how it was done, and they've never deviated very far from what he showed them....they know when they start playing like Mario taught them how to play, that a championship is within reach.


Mario was bossy and demanding like AJ...the difference is...Mario would fucking back it up on the court.


AJ wanted to command respect...but basically he just annoyed the shit out of everyone because he didn't do shit when it mattered...


Mario Elie was the guy that commanded respect when he did it...because of what he did on the court after he did it.

[sandman]

I don't get why people still don't understand why AJ deserves this. He had a huge part in bringing the Spurs their first championship ... which opened the door for everything we see today. Without that first one, the dominoes don't fall the same way and this team doesn't win three more.


Not understanding this point. The Spurs waited three long years for the next championship and only had a few players left from the '99 team on the '03 team. While we can point to many, many reasons why the '03, '05 and '07 championships are inter-related to one another, the '99 team tends to stand alone in my mind.

Now, if you are saying that the '99 championship instilled a championship mentality in the franchise, then I can see your point. But Avery had little or no influence on the last three championships, other than to serve the part of the lovable villian.

My issue with the jersey retirement is that it is being based completely on intangibles and a liberally positive posterity mindset. I personally think that we are overvaluing the Game 5 shot. Heck, we have already proven that Steve Kerr, Mario Elie and even SJax hit some great playoff shots for us, but for some reason we deem AJ's contributions in that one championship run as more valuable because his overall tenure in SA was longer than those other players.

Let's just call this for what it is: a popularity contest. He was a classic underdog, a great sound bite with a thick accent, and lucky to play with two of the Top 10 big men to ever play the game.

AJ never carried the team. AJ never willed the team to win. AJ was never the go-to guy for this team. What he brought to the table was a player-coach mentality encased in journeyman skills.

[timvp]

IMO if this is true, then it would be an injustice for Bruce Bowen to not get his number retired as well.Of course Bowen will get his jersey retired. If there was any question about that, Bowen erased the doubt with his performance against LeBron.

I don't know why so many Spurs in this thread have the take of: "if AJ gets his jersey retired, everyone should. Even Bruce Bowen."

That's a pretty funny take considering that Bowen is the best small forward in franchise history. Even taking away the three championships, he might have had enough to get his jersey retired. The last three years he has been second in the DPOY voting. He has been first team all-defense team countless times.

He has a full resume and is a no-brainer to have his jersey retired. Bowen is closer to a Hall of Famer than he is to not having his jersey retired by the Spurs.


The one player that I was certain would have his jersey retired by the Spurs was Alvin Robertson. He was a perennial all-star and all-NBA Defensive team member. Robertson was a good player but no where close to jersey retirement level. He had four good seasons with the Spurs. Those four years, the Spurs won 35, 28, 31 and 21 games. Not only was he a loser on the court, he has proven many times to be a loser off the court.


I am planning to boycott the ceremony as well. However I may end up staying only because there are some train wrecks you can't help but watch.

But ugh to think of his jersey in the rafters with our beautiful Championship banners. Ugh!!!!!!!!!!Without AJ, the only thing hanging in the rafters would be division championship banners.


When they retired 00, that opened the floodgate for a lot of marginal players to have their numbers retired.That is actually a good point. If you are going to retire 00, you have to retire 6.

If the Spurs only retired Hall of Famers and right now there was only 44 and 50 in the rafters, I'd agree 6 doesn't belong with those two. But if you have 00, 17 and 32 up there, you need 6.


AJ was outspoken and took advantage of DRob's personality to create his "L'il General" persona, but in all reality the catalyst of the '99 team was Elie. DRob and TD brought the talent, Mario brought the heart. Laughable.

The difference between AJ and Mario is AJ kept his outbursts behind the scenes. Mario went in front of cameras to get a sound bite. AJ was much more of a leader than Mario ... even Mario has admitted that.


AJ's legacy, as the original story suggests, is largely defined by his hitting a shot with about a minute left in a Finals game that the Spurs didn't have to haveThat shot was nice but that shot had very little to do with his jersey being retired. That was a nice way to end the first championship, however AJ meant more to this franchise than a single shot.


And unlike Parker, who worked his butt off and improved his game...AJ's game never improved muchI know you like to bash AJ out of one side of your mouth and then praise Shane Heal and Tim Derk out of the other side of your mouth, but this is a laughable take. Ask anyone involved with the Spurs who the hardest working player in franchise history was and they'll tell you AJ.


Oh and to all those who try to use his Mav ties against him ... that's pretty lame. If David Robinson wanted to go into coaching after his playing days and took a job with a rival team, would we hold that againt him? I hope not. Same with Silas, Moore, Gervin or whoever else.

[timvp]

Mario = winner


Don't worry Mario...some of us know, and we will never forget :tu




By the way timvp props....


Throwing Mario Elie under the bus to jock AJ is a new low :tu



What, the Pope wasn't available?:lol

Mario himself has said AJ was the leader of the 1999 team. Mario went for the soundbites. AJ led behind closed doors. It's not my fault you are gullible.

Mario was such a leader when he was an assistant coach during the 2003-04 season. And last year too when he failed out of coaching and became the sideline reporter for the Houston Rockets. :rolleyes

[whottt]

Oh and to all those who try to use his Mav ties against him ... that's pretty lame. If David Robinson wanted to go into coaching after his playing days and took a job with a rival team, would we hold that againt him? I hope not. Same with Silas, Moore, Gervin or whoever else.


This just in...David Robison is approximately 1billion trillion times the player and Spurs Avery Johnson was...I know it hurts you to hear that...but it's a fact nontheless.

[sandman]

Elie called out the entire freaking team about 15 games into the season...he basically called them a bunch of pussies...he was on David Robinson and Duncan's ass...he said it in the media and there was absolute pandemonium in SA and surrounding areas over his actions...

You can pinpoint that callout virtually to the day the Spurs turned that season and their franchise around, and it's something Pop has patented and uses about once per season to this day.


Mario Elie did that...but more importantly, any time the Spurs started doubt, he was there with a backbreaking dagger against the other team...it would almost make you cry.

I don't think Mario shot worth a flip that season PCT wise, but every freaking shot he made was a dagger.


As a long time Spurs fan...I knew the feelings of regular season optimism and I knew that sinking, oh shit here we go again feeling of the playoffs...the point at which their confidence and season, would begin to unravel with the lionshare of the blame undeservedly going on David Robinson...and it was usually a David Robinson being literally piled on by entire teams while his worthless sack of shit teamates failed to do anything except stand around...



That stopped, when Mario Elie came to this team, that was when "oh shit here it comes again" was replaced by "hell fucking yeah" and Mario Elie shimmy and fuck you to the other team.


It is inconcievable how anyone can give AJ that credit...when it was so clearly Mario Elie.


And if you doubt this...go watch David Robinson's retirement ceremony and the way he almost breaks into tears when he sees Elie there....Drob knows the guy who turned it around for him...


It is the greatest crime in all of Spursdom to ignore what Mario Elie did for this team, the change in mindset he brought, the mental toughness and killer instinct he instilled in this team, that remains to this day....he showed them how it was done, and they've never deviated very far from what he showed them....they know when they start playing like Mario taught them how to play, that a championship is within reach.


Mario was bossy and demanding like AJ...the difference is...Mario would fucking back it up on the court.


AJ wanted to command respect...but basically he just annoyed the shit out of everyone because he didn't do shit when it mattered...


Mario Elie was the guy that commanded respect when he did it...because of what he did on the court after he did it.

Spurs don't win that championship without Mario on the team. Same can't be said of AJ. Not that I hated AJ as a player, but even as a Spur his contribution was more as an assistant coach on the floor than a clutch and talented player.

Revisionsist history at work...

[timvp]

Bull crap. Manu is the reason the dominoes fell into place after that. He opened the door, brought the fire in the Spurs belly and the balls to win the trophys of the 2000s. Avery had absolutely nothing to do with Manu coming. Matter of fact wasn'rt he the guy that said the Spurs couldn't win with Parker?:lol

Manu was a borderline scrub during the 2003 playoffs. He had one good series (Lakers) and three horrible series. He also clashed with Pop.

To say Manu was the reason the Spurs won the 2003 championship is crazy. He was awesome in 2005 and very good in 2007, but in 2003 he was a barely capable role player.


Bull crap. Tim Duncan is the reason the dominoes fell into place after that. Now that would have made a lot more sense.

[whottt]

:lol

Mario himself has said AJ was the leader of the 1999 team. Mario went for the soundbites. AJ led behind closed doors. It's not my fault you are gullible.


Um...Mario Elie also went for momentum swinging shots....it's not my fault you are blind.





Mario was such a leader when he was an assistant coach during the 2003-04 season. And last year too when he failed out of coaching and became the sideline reporter for the Houston Rockets. :rolleyes

Hey...some guys are meant to be coaches and some guys are meant to be players...Mario was obviously a guy meant to be a player, and AJ was obviously a guy meant to be a coach...both have more credibility that way.

[whottt]

Avery Johnson was a message board poster on the court....


Anyone can tell you how to do it...only a handful can actually do it...and AJ wasn't one of them.


I can sit there and bitch and tell guys to play harder, I can also miss and refuse to take fucking shots while I am doing it....it's not Rocket Science.

[timvp]

Dammit timvp! You were supposed to say AJ was a competent shooter so I could look good in front of whott!:lol

whottt is maniacal on this subject. You argue about AJ with whottt and you'll get filibustered to death. Trust me, I'm well trained in overcoming his maniacal ways :)

As far as AJ's shooting, he couldn't really shoot. But he knew that. And he only took shots he could make. That's why his shooting percentage was so good.

whottt for some reason equates three point shooting with how good a player is. AJ couldn't shoot so he only shot when he knew he could make it. Where is the harm in that?

[timvp]

This just in...David Robison is approximately 1billion trillion times the player and Spurs Avery Johnson was...I know it hurts you to hear that...but it's a fact nontheless.Link to where I said differently?

[picnroll]

:lol

Manu was a borderline scrub during the 2003 playoffs. He had one good series (Lakers) and three horrible series. He also clashed with Pop.

To say Manu was the reason the Spurs won the 2003 championship is crazy. He was awesome in 2005 and very good in 2007, but in 2003 he was a barely capable role player.

Now that would have made a lot more sense.
Okay make it Duncan in "03 but your take that nothing would have happened if Avery hadn't brought us a title in '99 it still one of the lamest, most contrived arguments I've seen you make.

[sandman]

:lol

Mario himself has said AJ was the leader of the 1999 team. Mario went for the soundbites. AJ led behind closed doors. It's not my fault you are gullible.

Mario was such a leader when he was an assistant coach during the 2003-04 season. And last year too when he failed out of coaching and became the sideline reporter for the Houston Rockets. :rolleyes

That was weak. Show me the data that says being a leader in the heat of competition translates into being a successful coach.

IF that was the only championship that the Spurs had won, it would be a valid point to retire his number. But as things stand now, AJ was an important piece on one of many championship teams. We can't be expected to retire the numbers of every player who significantly contributes to a championship run, can we? Are we supposed to hoist up Kerr, Horry, Jax, Elie, Malik, et al? You would have a hard time arguing that shots by Kerr and Horry were not 10x more valuable than the final bucket of a 1999 Game 5 when we were up 3-1. Can we stop lionizing that shot?

And yes, the fact that he did not retire as a Spur, played for three more teams and became an arrogant bastard have something to do with my recitence to jump on his jockstrap.

[timvp]

Elie called out the entire freaking team about 15 games into the season...he basically called them a bunch of pussies...he was on David Robinson and Duncan's ass...he said it in the media and there was absolute pandemonium in SA and surrounding areas over his actions...

You can pinpoint that callout virtually to the day the Spurs turned that season and their franchise around, and it's something Pop has patented and uses about once per season to this day.


Mario Elie did that...but more importantly, any time the Spurs started doubt, he was there with a backbreaking dagger against the other team...it would almost make you cry.

I don't think Mario shot worth a flip that season PCT wise, but every freaking shot he made was a dagger.


As a long time Spurs fan...I knew the feelings of regular season optimism and I knew that sinking, oh shit here we go again feeling of the playoffs...the point at which their confidence and season, would begin to unravel with the lionshare of the blame undeservedly going on David Robinson...and it was usually a David Robinson being literally piled on by entire teams while his worthless sack of shit teamates failed to do anything except stand around...


The point..at which the teams said stop David Robinson and we beat this team...and sure enough, the shots would stop falling.


It was like clockwork....there is no mystery to it.



That stopped, when Mario Elie came to this team, that was when "oh shit here it comes again" was replaced by "hell fucking yeah" and a Mario Elie shimmy and fuck you to the other team.


It is inconcievable how anyone can give AJ that credit...when it was so clearly Mario Elie.


And if you doubt this...go watch David Robinson's retirement ceremony and the way he almost breaks into tears when he sees Elie there....Drob knows the guy who turned it around for him...


It is the greatest crime in all of Spursdom to ignore what Mario Elie did for this team, the change in mindset he brought, the mental toughness and killer instinct he instilled in this team, that remains to this day....he showed them how it was done, and they've never deviated very far from what he showed them....they know when they start playing like Mario taught them how to play, that a championship is within reach.


Mario was bossy and demanding like AJ...the difference is...Mario would fucking back it up on the court.


AJ wanted to command respect...but basically he just annoyed the shit out of everyone because he didn't do shit when it mattered...


Mario Elie was the guy that commanded respect when he did it...because of what he did on the court after he did it.:blah

I give Mario the props he deserved. He was a hell of a lot better than Vinny ... who was the main person to blame for the unclutchness this team weathered during the 90's. Going from Vinny to Mario was like going from Dirk to Michael Jordan in terms of clutchness.

But the leader of 1999 was AJ. Everyone involved, including Mario himself, agrees.

I knew you are a sucker for a soundbite but while Mario was talking in front of the cameras, AJ was being even harsher in the background. And not only that, AJ was the one who installed a new offense.

You know ... the championship winning offense. AJ was the leader of everyone on that team ... including Mario and Pop.

[mavs>spurs2]

I'll say that Elie was a huge part to the Spurs success that season, and probably contributed more than Avery as far as clutch shots, mental toughness, and bringing energy.

But without either player, the Spurs probably don't win the championship that season.

Like whottt pointed out, it was Elie who got the team fired up by calling everyone out and that really turned things around. He also led by example on the court and was incredibly clutch that season.

But without Avery's leadership, the Spurs don't win in 99 either. There is no way Steve Kerr or a young Antonio Daniels could have run the offense for a championship team. You're only as strong as your weakest link, and that would have spelled disaster.

[timvp]

While we can point to many, many reasons why the '03, '05 and '07 championships are inter-related to one another, the '99 team tends to stand alone in my mind.That's a mistake.

The championship experience attained by Duncan and Pop in 1999 was a huge part of the current success. In fact, Pop probably doesn't even make it to 2003 if he doesn't win the 1999 championships.

And on top of that, the Spurs became a place for veterans to retire and win rings after the 1999 championship. 1999 was the base of it all.


My issue with the jersey retirement is that it is being based completely on intangibles and a liberally positive posterity mindset. I personally think that we are overvaluing the Game 5 shot. Heck, we have already proven that Steve Kerr, Mario Elie and even SJax hit some great playoff shots for us, but for some reason we deem AJ's contributions in that one championship run as more valuable because his overall tenure in SA was longer than those other players. AJ doesn't deserve to have his jersey retired ... if all we were basing it on was one shot.

That shot was just icing on the cake. If I listed 100 reasons why AJ deserves his number to be retired, that shot wouldn't even crack the list.


Let's just call this for what it is: a popularity contest. He was a classic underdog, a great sound bite with a thick accent, and lucky to play with two of the Top 10 big men to ever play the game.I'll agree that he was lucky to play with Duncan and Robinson. Without those two great players, AJ wouldn't have done much as a player.

That said, there have been tons of talented teams before. You need more to win championships. AJ had a lot of "more" in him.

[whottt]

:blah

I give Mario the props he deserved. He was a hell of a lot better than Vinny ... who was the main person to blame for the unclutchness this team weathered during the 90's. Going from Vinny to Mario was like going from Dirk to Michael Jordan in terms of clutchness.

But the leader of 1999 was AJ. Everyone involved, including Mario himself, agrees.

I knew you area sucker for a soundbite but while Mario was talking in front of the cameras, AJ was being even harsher in the background. And not only that, AJ was the one who installed a new offense.

You know ... the championship winning offense. AJ was the leader of everyone on that team ... including Mario and Pop.



There's no such thing as a championship winning offense...there's only guys that can hit shots when it matters...especially open ones when their bigmen are being doubled...and those that can't.


AJ is not one, as evidenced by his entire career not spent with Mario Elie...

Mario Elie was one...just ask the pre Mario ringless Hakeem and DRob. And watch a game from the 99 season some time....


I gurantee you if you ask David Robison, Tim Duncan and Hakeem Olajuwon what they value more...some guy who rides their ass or some guy who can hit a fucking shot when they are being doubled...what their answer will be.

[timvp]

Spurs don't win that championship without Mario on the team. Same can't be said of AJ. :lol

Good of you to use an opinion in the form of fact. Well done.

[timvp]

Okay make it Duncan in "03 but your take that nothing would have happened if Avery hadn't brought us a title in '99 it still one of the lamest, most contrived arguments I've seen you make.Alright, well let me know when you need me to fix your own take again.

Thanks.

[whottt]

I can gurantee you that they Spurs didn't win a championship with AJ leading....until the year SuperMario arrived and started knocking down some motherfucking shots.

[whottt]

That championship offense is a choking offense when you have Hedo instead of Jack....notice the difference.

[whottt]

timvp...anytime your biggest backers are Mavfans...time to rethink some stuff...JMO.

[mavs>spurs2]

timvp...anytime your biggest backers are Mavfans...time to rethink some stuff...JMO.

Nice 2 for 1 combo. Diss the mav fan and use it to take a shot at Timvp's credibility all in one post

:donkey

[sandman]

I'll say that Elie was a huge part to the Spurs success that season, and probably contributed more than Avery as far as clutch shots, mental toughness, and bringing energy.

But without either player, the Spurs probably don't win the championship that season.

Like whottt pointed out, it was Elie who got the team fired up by calling everyone out and that really turned things around. He also led by example on the court and was incredibly clutch that season.

But without Avery's leadership, the Spurs don't win in 99 either. There is no way Steve Kerr or a young Antonio Daniels could have run the offense for a championship team. You're only as strong as your weakest link, and that would have spelled disaster.

If people want to argue that AJ was the leader in the locker room, I take no umbrage with that. But please, let's quit with the "mad skillz" takes. He was a marginal player from a talent perspective who was one HoFer teammate away from being out of the league. Loved his spirit, loved his grit and determination, but he was what he was.

Making AJ THE reason that the Spurs won in '99 is like giving the veteran backup QB the Super Bowl MVP because he mentored the kid who threw for over 300 yards in the Big Game.

Do I believe that the Spurs could have won without AJ? Yes. See: Tim Duncan in '03, '05 and '07. There is a reason that AJ only stayed two more years after the title run. Because TD made it clear it was HIS team, unlike DRob who was happy to let AJ take ownership. In my humble opinion, of course.

[whottt]

You go ahead and link me to Drob saying whatever you want...I can link you to Drob wanting Parker and Manu as guards...


Just because Drob never came out and said AJ sucked doesn't mean it wasn't so...Drob has that class thing going.


Aj sucked less as a PG than Vinny...that's the sum total of his talent as a player.

[Mitch Cumsteen]

To say Manu was the reason the Spurs won the 2003 championship is crazy. He was awesome in 2005 and very good in 2007, but in 2003 he was a barely capable role player.You could use the term "barely capable role player" to describe Avery Johnson's entire career.

[timvp]

There's no such thing as a championship winning offense...there's only guys that can hit shots when it matters...especially open ones when their bigmen are being doubled...and those that can't. So it was just coincidence that when the Spurs changed their offense after losing to the Jazz in 1999 that their season turned around? You say it was Elie sitting in front of NBC cameras that turned the team around. I say it was a change in the offensive and defensive philosophies that did it.

This isn't the WWF. Speaking like a hard azz in front of cameras isn't the end all, be all.


I gurantee you if you ask David Robison, Tim Duncan and Hakeem Olajuwon what they value more...some guy who rides their ass or some guy who can hit a fucking shot when they are being doubled...what their answer will be.It's classic that you always try to pit AJ and Robinson against each other, yet in real life they are best friends.

[whottt]

If people want to argue that AJ was the leader in the locker room, I take no umbrage with that. But please, let's quit with the "mad skillz" takes. He was a marginal player from a talent perspective who was one HoFer teammate away from being out of the league. Loved his spirit, loved his grit and determination, but he was what he was.

Making AJ THE reason that the Spurs won in '99 is like giving the veteran backup QB the Super Bowl MVP because he mentored the kid who threw for over 300 yards in the Big Game.

Do I believe that the Spurs could have won without AJ? Yes. See: Tim Duncan in '03, '05 and '07. There is a reason that AJ only stayed two more years after the title run. Because TD made it clear it was HIS team, unlike DRob who was happy to let AJ take ownership. In my humble opinion, of course.



Welcome to the world of the AJ fan...no one and nothing is sacred when it comes to jocking AJ...his fans will throw any and everyone under the bus in the process of defending the indefensible, and apologizing for the unapologizable...including the Spurs franchise.


And they are going to cram and force that worthless jersey down our throats no matter how many people don't want it...and I promise you this...no retired Spurs jersey in history has ever had as many people not wanting it retired as AJ's...and the AJ fans just laugh.


It's not just a case of ambivalance with a slight bias against AJ...there are many fans that are violently opposed to it....and the AJ fans just laugh.



I take solace in the fact that AJ got punked by both Manu and Parker after running his mouth against them...he came off looking like as big of an idiot as Damoin Stoudamire did...to those with a shred of objectivity....


I mean these same AJ fans that were outraged about Stoudamire's comments give AJ a free pass for doing hte same thing to two players much more valuable to this franchise than he ever was. And AJ got owned just like Stoudamire did...GMTA.

I also have to snicker that the biggest owning about AJ's jersey was when Pop himself handed Manu AJ's jersey.....that shows you want Pop thought about the idea before Don Harris went for the jersey retirement coup.

[mavs>spurs2]

If people want to argue that AJ was the leader in the locker room, I take no umbrage with that. But please, let's quit with the "mad skillz" takes. He was a marginal player from a talent perspective who was one HoFer teammate away from being out of the league. Loved his spirit, loved his grit and determination, but he was what he was.

Making AJ THE reason that the Spurs won in '99 is like giving the veteran backup QB the Super Bowl MVP because he mentored the kid who threw for over 300 yards in the Big Game.

Do I believe that the Spurs could have won without AJ? Yes. See: Tim Duncan in '03, '05 and '07. There is a reason that AJ only stayed two more years after the title run. Because TD made it clear it was HIS team, unlike DRob who was happy to let AJ take ownership. In my humble opinion, of course.

By no means was AJ THE REASON the Spurs won in 99.

Forget about 03, 05, 07 those were different teams with different players

Now do you seriously think that the Spurs could have won the championship with an over the hill spot up shooter with no ball distributing skills aka Steve Kerr running point?

It was a TEAM effort and you can't win a championship without a dependable point guard, which is what AJ was. Dependable, not great or even good, but he did bring intangibles to the table which is why he deserves to have his number retired.

[sandman]

:lol

Good of you to use an opinion in the form of fact. Well done.

If you read my posts you will see that I use a great deal of statistics to back up any facts I may present. The current vein of thought is regarding the impact of the intangibles for two different players, which are subjective at best. Ergo, it should be a bit obvious that my statement is an opinion, as would be any of your refuting of my statement.

I'll help you out next time and throw in an "IMO" next time, OK?

[timvp]

If you read my posts you will see that I use a great deal of statistics to back up any facts I may present. The current vein of thought is regarding the impact of the intangibles for two different players, which are subjective at best. Ergo, it should be a bit obvious that my statement is an opinion, as would be any of your refuting of my statement.

I'll help you out next time and throw in an "IMO" next time, OK?Bust out the thesaurus and calculator and find me some stats that show that the Spurs would have won the 1999 championship without AJ but wouldn't have won it without Mario.

Thanks.

[sandman]

You could use the term "barely capable role player" to describe Avery Johnson's entire career.

[/thread]

[sandman]

Bust out the thesaurus and calculator and find me some stats that show that the Spurs would have won the 1999 championship without AJ but wouldn't have won it without Mario.

Thanks.

Um, did I not state that it was opinion based on the subjective nature of the topic at hand?

Let me try again: IN MY OPINION, Mario was much more integral to the '99 championship team than AJ. IT IS ALSO MY OPINION that AJ's contributions have grown exponentially over time. Furthermore, I HUMBLY OPINE that the '99 team could have potentially won the title without AJ.

Feel free to have an opinion that disagrees with mine.

[Mixability]

what a fucking joke.

[Spurs Brazil]

Well deserved

Props to AJ!

http://i.pbase.com/u20/trrsranch/upload/9235523.SpursCelebrateWorldChampionship3.jpg

[whottt]

It's classic that you always try to pit AJ and Robinson against each other, yet in real life they are best friends.


Big deal...David's charitable...sky is blue...

Drob paid for a meal for some dude's grandpa on this forum..that doesn't mean he thinks that guy won him a championship.

[timvp]

While even I'll agree AJ wasn't that great of a player, if you are looking for some on the court basketball success, look no further than what he did against the Phoenix Suns in the 1998 playoffs.

AJ freakin' destroyed the greatest threesome of point guards ever assembled. Against Jason Kidd, Steve Nash and Kevin Johnson, AJ had the series of his life. AJ had maybe 1/100000000000th of the natural talent of those three guys but he owned them.

Then again, that was probably before these New Age Spurs fans were Spurs fans, so maybe it doesn't count.

[timvp]

Um, did I not state that it was opinion based on the subjective nature of the topic at hand?

Let me try again: IN MY OPINION, Mario was much more integral to the '99 championship team than AJ. IT IS ALSO MY OPINION that AJ's contributions have grown exponentially over time. Furthermore, I HUMBLY OPINE that the '99 team could have potentially won the title without AJ.

Feel free to have an opinion that disagrees with mine.Grown over time? AJ was loved when he retired. Nowadays, most Spurs fans don't like AJ.

Where has it grown? Or is that just another bad opinion?

[Mixability]

At this rate, pretty soon our team will have triple digit jersey numbers.

[Extra Stout]

That's a mistake.

The championship experience attained by Duncan and Pop in 1999 was a huge part of the current success. In fact, Pop probably doesn't even make it to 2003 if he doesn't win the 1999 championships.

And on top of that, the Spurs became a place for veterans to retire and win rings after the 1999 championship. 1999 was the base of it all.
That must be why those experienced, gutty, veteran Spurs nutted up so well against the Lakers in 2001 and 2002, rather than pissing themselves and collapsing into the fetal position whenever LA made a run: all that "championship experience" brought by AJ teaching Duncan and Pop.

[Whisky Dog]

What should be the minimum criteria for getting a jersey retired? If someone get's their jersey retired for being a marginal player on the court but a good leader off of it, does that cheapen the on-court accomplishments of the other guys who had their jersey's retired because they were actually great players?

[timvp]

While even I'll agree AJ wasn't that great of a player, if you are looking for some on the court basketball success, look no further than what he did against the Phoenix Suns in the 1998 playoffs.

AJ freakin' destroyed the greatest threesome of point guards ever assembled. Against Jason Kidd, Steve Nash and Kevin Johnson, AJ had the series of his life. AJ had maybe 1/100000000000th of the natural talent of those three guys but he owned them.

Then again, that was probably before these New Age Spurs fans were Spurs fans, so maybe it doesn't count.Well said.

During that series, AJ averaged 21 points, six assists and shot 65% from the field. In the deciding game 4, AJ had 30 points, seven assists and shot 11-for-15 from the field.

Against Jason Kidd, Steve Nash and Kevin Johnson. You can say AJ wasn't great but you can't say he was a scrub. Scrubs don't light up three probably Hall of Famers at the same position.

[whottt]

Then again, that was probably before these New Age Spurs fans were Spurs fans, so maybe it doesn't count.


Lame...most of the anti-AJ sentiment is because of his jersey being retired.



AJ wouldn't be near as polarizing if his jersey wasn't being retired...


And the fact Pop knew full well he was giving Manu AJ's jersey as he was handing it to him, proves this entire jersey campaign is largely a media driven heist of the Spurs retired jerseys...


If there's this much dissent, it's a probably a bad idea...


Nontheless, as long as the pro AJ argument sticks to his mascot appeal and refrains from statements like, he was a good PG, and he taught the Spurs how to win championships...the argument doesn't get near as heated.

He wasn't a great PG, and he didn't teach the Spurs how to win championships...he was part of the choking soft Spurs just like all the other guys were.

FACT.


Mario Elie OTOH, never was part of those teams.

[timvp]

That must be why those experienced, gutty, veteran Spurs nutted up so well against the Lakers in 2001 and 2002, rather than pissing themselves and collapsing into the fetal position whenever LA made a run: all that "championship experience" brought by AJ teaching Duncan and Pop.Would Pop have survived the 2001 collapse without the 1999 championship?

[Whisky Dog]

Other than Tim Duncan, David Robinson, and Pop there weren't many connections between the 1999 and 2003 titles. I think 2000, 2001, and 2002 reduced any "championship style" that AJ supposedly imparted in 1999 to nothing. The reason the 2003 team won a title wasn't because of AJ's lingering effect, it was because they finally had surrounded TD and Dave with some guys who could create and hit clutch shots. Amazing how much easier it becomes to beat good teams and win a title when you aren't one dimensional.

[SRJ]

AJ has high FG% becuase he dind't shoot, not just that he couldn't, he wouldn't...not even when he was being dared to do so.

Wouldn't shoot?

From 1994-95 through 1999-00, Avery Johnson was the Spurs starting point guard. He played in 447 games and attempted 4417 shots in those games - 9.9 FGAs per game.

Let's compare that to his principal teammates at that time. I limited this survey to players who were with the club for at least two seasons and recieved significant minutes:

Tim Duncan 206 GP / 3413 FGA - 16.6 FGAs per game
David Robinson 365 GP / 5488 FGA - 15.1 FGAs per game
Sean Elliott 247 GP / 3170 FGA - 12.8 FGAs per game
Vinny Del Negro 283 GP / 2988 FGA - 10.6 FGAs per game
Avery Johnson 447 GP / 4417 FGA - 9.9 FGAs per game
Chuck Person 222 GP / 1853 FGA - 8.3 FGAs per game
Mario Elie 126 GP / 788 FGA - 6.3 FGAs per game
Jaren Jackson 210 GP / 1260 FGA - 6 FGAs per game
Will Perdue 224 GP / 1036 FGA - 4.6 FGAs per game

So Avery Johnson, option #3 or #4 every year he played, shot ten times per game. Yet, he wouldn't shoot. Interesting interpretation of "wouldn't shoot".

I suppose whott's next take is "AJ shouldn't have shot so much". Or perhaps, "Why didn't AJ shoot more?" He's unpredictable, that whott. I'll give him that.

[Mixability]

As said before, if his jersey is lifted to the rafters, it degrades the other jerseys that are already up there.

[SRJ]

As said before, if his jersey is lifted to the rafters, it degrades the other jerseys that are already up there.

Yeah, like Johnny Moore's. :lmao

[degenerate_gambler]

I'd rather not see AJ's number retired solely because I don't think he was one of the all-time greats of the franchise...he just doesn't measure up in my mind to the Ice's and Jimmy Si's that have graced us.


Nothing against the guy but when I think of a leader of the '99 team, AJ's name is down the list. I think of Mario Elie and moments like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAGDNHugl_U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lkeeQcFw9E&mode=related&search=

[sandman]

While even I'll agree AJ wasn't that great of a player, if you are looking for some on the court basketball success, look no further than what he did against the Phoenix Suns in the 1998 playoffs.

AJ freakin' destroyed the greatest threesome of point guards ever assembled. Against Jason Kidd, Steve Nash and Kevin Johnson, AJ had the series of his life. AJ had maybe 1/100000000000th of the natural talent of those three guys but he owned them.

Then again, that was probably before these New Age Spurs fans were Spurs fans, so maybe it doesn't count.

I've been following the Spurs since the early 80's. I worked in the locker room for John Anderson back in high school in the mid-80's. I have followed every iteration of this team for the last 25 years. I will admit that this particular topic has gotten a bit out of hand.

At first my only point was that AJ would be getting his number retired on intangibles alone, which I personally am not comfortable with, but I understand why people want it to happen. I never hated AJ, never rooted against him, never wanted him gone. Have my opinions regarding him changed since he morphed into Cuban's whiny girlfriend? Yes. Does that change how I felt about him as a Spurs player? No.

I always felt he was a marginal talent with good non-skills related leadership ability. Everyone loves an underdog. He was an integral part of our first championship team along with several other players. He was not THE reason, he was one of many reasons.

In my opinion, outside of some intangibles that are impossible to quantify, he is getting his jersey retired because of the team's success for one year and for being a fan favorite. Is it wrong to want the standards to be a bit higher than that?

[timvp]

Lame...most of the anti-AJ sentiment is because of his jersey being retired. Spurs fans don't like AJ either way. They used to ... not now.

He's now coach of the Dallas Mavericks. That's how a lot of Spurs fans see him.



AJ wouldn't be near as polarizing if his jersey wasn't being retired...Do you know what his current job is?


And the fact Pop knew full well he was giving Manu AJ's jersey as he was handing it to him, proves this entire jersey campaign is largely a media driven heist of the Spurs retired jerseys...You might want to check your "fact".



If there's this much dissent, it's a probably a bad idea...AJ has had haters his whole basketball career. Why stop now?


Nontheless, as long as the pro AJ argument sticks to his mascot appeal Like you are one to talk about mascot appeal. :lol

Mr. Coyote > David Robinson. You are the king of mascot appeal. If it were up to you, you'd lower David Robinson's jersey and put up the Coyote's pelt.


and refrains from statements like, he was a good PG, and he taught the Spurs how to win championships...the argument doesn't get near as heated. AJ in 1999 was a championship level point guard. That means he was a good point guard. And he did have a lot to do with helping the Spurs grow from pretender to contender.


He wasn't a great PG, and he didn't teach the Spurs how to win championships...he was part of the choking soft Spurs just like all the other guys were.

FACT. Damn, bro, why do you hate David Robinson so? You are a disgrace to Spurs fandom by calling David Robinson soft and a choker. That's even worse than your "mascot appeal" take.

Robinson was a great player. You need to find a new team to root for if you can't accept that fact.

Lame.

[sandman]

Yeah, like Johnny Moore's. :lmao

You can't pull jerseys down once they are hoisted up unless they belong to OJ, but you can stop a precedent. Personally, I think Jr's situation was very unique and cannot be used to rationalize anything for AJ.

[timvp]

In my opinion, outside of some intangibles that are impossible to quantify, he is getting his jersey retired because of the team's success for one year and for being a fan favorite. Is it wrong to want the standards to be a bit higher than that?1999 was the most important year in this franchise's history. And it wasn't an overnight thing. AJ was one of the main driving forces behind the team that helped propel the team over the hump. There is a huge difference between being a great team and being a championship team. Just ask the Mavs and the Suns.

You need players who not only fight for the ring, you also need players who believe that it can happen. AJ believed and did everything in his power to help this team win a championship. There was nothing more he could have done on or off the court. If he wasn't organizing offseason practices, he was begging Mario Elie to come on board for less money to help the Spurs win a ring.

Secondly, AJ isn't and never really was a fan favorite. Back when he played, Spurs fan always wanted a new point guard. Nowadays, if the jersey decision was based on a vote, he likely wouldn't have his jersey raised to the rafters.

He may have at one point been a fan favorite to casual Spurs fans but those days are long over. The modern day Spurs fan doesn't care about AJ. They just know he coaches the Mavs and he used to play for the team back in the day.

[whottt]

Wouldn't shoot?

From 1994-95 through 1999-00, Avery Johnson was the Spurs starting point guard. He played in 447 games and attempted 4417 shots in those games - 9.9 FGAs per game.

Let's compare that to his principal teammates at that time. I limited this survey to players who were with the club for at least two seasons and recieved significant minutes:

Tim Duncan 206 GP / 3413 FGA - 16.6 FGAs per game
David Robinson 365 GP / 5488 FGA - 15.1 FGAs per game
Sean Elliott 247 GP / 3170 FGA - 12.8 FGAs per game
Vinny Del Negro 283 GP / 2988 FGA - 10.6 FGAs per game
Avery Johnson 447 GP / 4417 FGA - 9.9 FGAs per game
Chuck Person 222 GP / 1853 FGA - 8.3 FGAs per game
Mario Elie 126 GP / 788 FGA - 6.3 FGAs per game
Jaren Jackson 210 GP / 1260 FGA - 6 FGAs per game
Will Perdue 224 GP / 1036 FGA - 4.6 FGAs per game

So Avery Johnson, option #3 or #4 every year he played, shot ten times per game. Yet, he wouldn't shoot. Interesting interpretation of "wouldn't shoot".

I suppose whott's next take is "AJ shouldn't have shot so much". Or perhaps, "Why didn't AJ shoot more?" He's unpredictable, that whott. I'll give him that.



Translation:


AJ was dead last in shots out of the starting 5, being dared to shoot the most.


Thanks for doing that work for me....

[whottt]

For me, the defining moment of AJ's toughness and leadership was the 96-97 season...

It takes one hell of a tough man to suck that bad....day after day after day.

[sandman]

AJ in 1999 was a championship level point guard.

While this statement is technically correct because he was the starting point guard on a championship team, that is sort of like saying Nazr was a championship level center in 2005.

btw, AJ's regular season stats: 9.7 ppg and 7.4 apg both 5 year lows for him.

Playoffs? 12.6 ppg and 7.4 apg. Raised his scoring average slightly, but assists were the same as the regular season.

Help me understand where he was a better point guard and raised his play to championship level in '99 than he was in the previous 5 years.

I'm not contending that he hurt team in any way, shape or form. I'm just not going to agree that his performance in either the regular season or playoffs was "championship caliber". He did not raise his game to another level that year. In fact, he statistically regressed.

[SRJ]

I've been following the Spurs since the early 80's. I worked in the locker room for John Anderson back in high school in the mid-80's. I have followed every iteration of this team for the last 25 years. I will admit that this particular topic has gotten a bit out of hand.

At first my only point was that AJ would be getting his number retired on intangibles alone, which I personally am not comfortable with, but I understand why people want it to happen. I never hated AJ, never rooted against him, never wanted him gone. Have my opinions regarding him changed since he morphed into Cuban's whiny girlfriend? Yes. Does that change how I felt about him as a Spurs player? No.

I always felt he was a marginal talent with good non-skills related leadership ability. Everyone loves an underdog. He was an integral part of our first championship team along with several other players. He was not THE reason, he was one of many reasons.

In my opinion, outside of some intangibles that are impossible to quantify, he is getting his jersey retired because of the team's success for one year and for being a fan favorite. Is it wrong to want the standards to be a bit higher than that?

This is the best vote "No" I've read today. I don't agree with it, but it's a much better argument than the others. The second part of your post is the one I wanted to weigh in on.


I always felt he was a marginal talent with good non-skills related leadership ability. Everyone loves an underdog. He was an integral part of our first championship team along with several other players. He was not THE reason, he was one of many reasons.

I agree with this assessment for the most part, except the "marginal talent" phrase. I would say, "slightly above average". I just don't think a marginal player could play 1000 games unless he was a seven-footer.


In my opinion, outside of some intangibles that are impossible to quantify, he is getting his jersey retired because of the team's success for one year and for being a fan favorite. Is it wrong to want the standards to be a bit higher than that?

That's your opinion and I agree with it, but I would also add to it that Avery was a fan favorite because unlike so many players, Avery was a player that worked. It was obvious from his physical condition and the seasonal improvement of his outside shot that Avery took his job seriously. That he was dedicated, that he had personal pride, that he was reliable, that he cared.

When a team chooses to honor a player like that (Bruce Bowen is another), it is responding to fans who respect those kind of virtues. Isaiah Rider was a much better player than Avery Johnson, but he didn't respect himself or the game as much as Avery did. He felt that it was good enough to just show up and play, and for a player of Rider's ability, it usually was "good enough". When players with the talent and work ethic of an Isaiah Rider finish their careers, they can look back on a few All-Star games and a lot of points scored. But they will never be honored anywhere because through their actions, they made it clear that they didn't care enough to be professionals.

Occasionally, a player of limited ability who works hard and conducts himself as a professional will see his name up in the rafters one day. Dave Twardzik, Brad Davis, Al Attles, and now Avery Johnson. When you combine a top work ethic with a top-notch talent, you get to go to the Hall of Fame.

I'd say Avery Johnson established pretty high standards, in answer to your last question.

[whottt]

Spurs fans don't like AJ either way. They used to ... not now.


False...he's always annoyed the shit out of certain fans...from the day he became a Spur.

The difference is...thanks to campaigns mounted here at ST and elsehwere...people now aren't near as a hesitant to voice their opinions about AJ.




He's now coach of the Dallas Mavericks. That's how a lot of Spurs fans see him.

He's also a skidmark on Tony Parker's shorts now as a Spurs PG....and that has a lot to do with it as a well.






You might want to check your "fact".

I'll check my fact all you want....I even remember Pop's words to Manu as he was handing him the jersey? Do you?

There's no doubt he knew it was AJ's jersey.





AJ has had haters his whole basketball career. Why stop now?


His haters are more important now than ever before...as his jersey gets retired.




Like you are one to talk about mascot appeal. :lol

Mr. Coyote > David Robinson. You are the king of mascot appeal. If it were up to you, you'd lower David Robinson's jersey and put up the Coyote's pelt.

He who breaks from reality first loses...


AJ in 1999 was a championship level point guard. That means he was a good point guard. And he did have a lot to do with helping the Spurs grow from pretender to contender.


Hogwash...


Damn, bro, why do you hate David Robinson so? You are a disgrace to Spurs fandom by calling David Robinson soft and a choker. That's even worse than your "mascot appeal" take.

Oh I'm not calling David soft or a choker.....I'm saying David's teamates sucked...


And for proof of this...I give you...the 96-97 season.

AJ not here, we get worked by Utah...AJ here we get worked by Utah.

Non factor...


Robinson was a great player. You need to find a new team to root for if you can't accept that fact.

Lame.


LOL...convince yourself yet?

[Spurs Brazil]

Well said.

During that series, AJ averaged 21 points, six assists and shot 65% from the field. In the deciding game 4, AJ had 30 points, seven assists and shot 11-for-15 from the field.

Against Jason Kidd, Steve Nash and Kevin Johnson. You can say AJ wasn't great but you can't say he was a scrub. Scrubs don't light up three probably Hall of Famers at the same position.

And he also had a little fight with Nash in the end of game 4

[whottt]

Yeah, like Johnny Moore's. :lmao


Um...last I checked, Johnny Moore didn't get cut, waived, and passed around the NBA like a 2 dollar whore like AJ did any time he wasn't on Robinson's team.



Johnny Moore > AJ



We probably would have won a title if we'd had him in his prime instead of AJ.


Better player than AJ, in every facet of the game.


Sad that people don't realize that...but I agree, he didn't deserve to have his jersey retired....even with his career ending basically at 28 due to illness...


Goold ole AJ...he put up better numbers(barely) than a guy struck down by injury just as he was entering his prime...

What honor...what a credit to the Spurs retired jersey...


Hopefully they'll put up some of AJ's famous quotes like...

Let him make his own number - said about Manu
THey are sending a boy to do a man's job - said about Parker


Unforetunately we know they wouldn't do that....because it's the truth...and the truth never reflects well on AJ.

[SRJ]

Translation:


AJ was dead last in shots out of the starting 5, being dared to shoot the most.


Thanks for doing that work for me....

Is that how you read that? Damn, you're fucking stupid.

Avery wasn't Tony Parker - Avery was a pass-first point guard. So he averaged less than one shot less than Vinny Del Negro despite having the responsibility of running the team. Vinny's only job was to shoot.

Besides, are you actually saying that Avery should be taking as many shots as Sean Elliott, David Robinson, and Tim Duncan? Why are you trying to have it both ways, whott?

Is it because you hate Avery Johnson and you'll latch onto any argument that you think works?

[whottt]

Oh I'm sorry...are you done trampling on the cripple justifying AJ's jersey retirement?

[Spurs Brazil]

Popovich: Johnson deserves to have number retired by Spurs
Associated Press

Updated: October 2, 2007, 5:48 PM ET
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SAN ANTONIO -- San Antonio Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said Tuesday that the team plans to retire the No. 6 worn by Avery Johnson.

Johnson, now coach of the Dallas Mavericks, played 16 seasons in the NBA and spent all or part of 10 seasons with the Spurs. He was with the team for its 1999 title run.

"We're going to retire A.J.'s jersey for all the obvious reasons," Popovich said. "He's been very, very important to the history of San Antonio basketball. He's a championship player. He was a wonderful leader while he was here."

The retirement ceremony for the number worn by the 5-foot-11 guard will take place Dec. 22 when the Spurs play the Los Angeles Clippers, the Mavericks said Tuesday.
"He deserves it, it's going to be a fun night," Popovich added.

Copyright 2007 by The Associated Press

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3046820

[SRJ]

Did you even see Johnny Moore play? I did in his pre-Desert Fever years. He had speed, he was a good distributor, but he was a sub-par finisher at the rim.

You say Avery Johnson just made layups (which wasn't true), but Moore often had trouble doing just that.

[sandman]

Is that how you read that? Damn, you're fucking stupid.

Avery wasn't Tony Parker - Avery was a pass-first point guard. So he averaged less than one shot less than Vinny Del Negro despite having the responsibility of running the team. Vinny's only job was to shoot.

Besides, are you actually saying that Avery should be taking as many shots as Sean Elliott, David Robinson, and Tim Duncan? Why are you trying to have it both ways, whott?

Is it because you hate Avery Johnson and you'll latch onto any argument that you think works?

A career 5.5 apg PG is considered "pass first"? Played with two of the greatest big men of all time for the majority of his career, but only averaged over 8 assists one time?

Let's stick with the "intagible" arguments...

[sandman]

Did you even see Johnny Moore play? I did in his pre-Desert Fever years. He had speed, he was a good distributor, but he was a sub-par finisher at the rim.

You say Avery Johnson just made layups (which wasn't true), but Moore often had trouble doing just that.

Yeah, I remember being in the locker room the first day he came back, even though he still couldn't play yet. Not my greatest memory as a Spurs fan, because you just knew it would not be the same. Ranks right up there with seeing Gervin's locker cleaned out and every game day when Alfrederick Hughes walked through the door.

I saw a few seasons of Jr play up close and personal, and you are right, he was not the strongest at the rim. But he was a hell of a lot better "pass first" PG that AJ could ever dream of being.

[timvp]

False...he's always annoyed the shit out of certain fans...from the day he became a Spur.

The difference is...thanks to campaigns mounted here at ST and elsehwere...people now aren't near as a hesitant to voice their opinions about AJ. You'd think some people would see through the AJ campaign you mounted when at the same time you haven't hesitated to mount Shane Heal.


He who breaks from reality first loses...If that were the case, you would have lost a long time ago.

So what did you mean by Coyote > DRob?



Oh I'm not calling David soft or a choker.....


What part of "all" do you not understand?


He wasn't a great PG, and he didn't teach the Spurs how to win championships...he was part of the choking soft Spurs just like all the other guys were.

FACT.Disgrace.

[SRJ]

A career 5.5 apg PG is considered "pass first"? Played with two of the greatest big men of all time for the majority of his career, but only averaged over 8 assists one time?

Let's stick with the "intagible" arguments...

In his seven seasons as the Spurs starting PG, Avery averaged 7.6 assists. Way to try and distort the record by using his career record.

I complimented your earlier post - I feel dirty now.

[timvp]

Popovich: Johnson deserves to have number retired by Spurs
Associated Press

Updated: October 2, 2007, 5:48 PM ET
Comment
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Print
SAN ANTONIO -- San Antonio Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said Tuesday that the team plans to retire the No. 6 worn by Avery Johnson.

Johnson, now coach of the Dallas Mavericks, played 16 seasons in the NBA and spent all or part of 10 seasons with the Spurs. He was with the team for its 1999 title run.

"We're going to retire A.J.'s jersey for all the obvious reasons," Popovich said. "He's been very, very important to the history of San Antonio basketball. He's a championship player. He was a wonderful leader while he was here."

The retirement ceremony for the number worn by the 5-foot-11 guard will take place Dec. 22 when the Spurs play the Los Angeles Clippers, the Mavericks said Tuesday.
"He deserves it, it's going to be a fun night," Popovich added.

Copyright 2007 by The Associated Press

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3046820
Awesome :tu

Hmmmmm ... who to believe ... whottt and his brainwashed minions or Gregg Popovich?

Obvious.

[timvp]

While this statement is technically correct because he was the starting point guard on a championship team, that is sort of like saying Nazr was a championship level center in 2005. :lol

AJ = Nazr?

Classic.




btw, AJ's regular season stats: 9.7 ppg and 7.4 apg both 5 year lows for him.

Playoffs? 12.6 ppg and 7.4 apg. Raised his scoring average slightly, but assists were the same as the regular season.Slightly? You may need to take another math course.


Help me understand where he was a better point guard and raised his play to championship level in '99 than he was in the previous 5 years. Motion, four-down offense with two dominating bigs isn't an offense that features scoring or assists from the point guard position.


I'm not contending that he hurt team in any way, shape or form. I'm just not going to agree that his performance in either the regular season or playoffs was "championship caliber". He did not raise his game to another level that year. In fact, he statistically regressed. AJ 1999 > Parker 2003

And that's just on the court. Off the court, in the lockerroom, during the lockout and every other intangible you can think of ... AJ was off the charts.

But this post was over when you compared AJ to Nazr.

[SequSpur]

The Spurs were trying to get a better point guard through a trade, free agency or draft every fucking minute Avery was here.

Wake the fuck up.... The Spurs would've been 10 times better without him. Take Tony Parker for example... a second round pick, 18 year old ran his ass out of town.

Wake the fuck up already... Avery received some Drob benefit, that's it.

Avery is the most overrated Spur ever.

[sandman]

In his seven seasons as the Spurs starting PG, Avery averaged 7.6 assists. Way to try and distort the record by using his career record.

I complimented your earlier post - I feel dirty now.

OK, even at 7.6 apg, that is not necessarily a high average for a "pass first" guard. Hell, TP has a career average of 5.5 apg in an offensive scheme where he is encouraged to shoot first.

Can we all agree that he was gritty, determined, a hard worker, dedicated and disciplined, squeezed every ounce of talent that he had, was a coach in a players body, and exhibited leadership qualities that helped mold a championship level team for one year?

But honestly, we can't continue to have converstations regarding his basketball skills. Pick an adjective: Mediocre, Average, Marginal, Good

His "championship caliber" was the intangibles, not the tangibles. If you are OK with designating him as an All Time Spurs Great based on those intangibles, then Pop granted your wish.

[timvp]

The Spurs were trying to get a better point guard through a trade, free agency or draft every fucking minute Avery was here.

Wake the fuck up.... The Spurs would've been 10 times better without him. Take Tony Parker for example... a second round pick, 18 year old ran his ass out of town.

Wake the fuck up already... Avery received some Drob benefit, that's it.

Avery is the most overrated Spur ever.I rest my case.

[DudleyDawson]

Great news. Congrats AJ!!

[sandman]

:lol

AJ = Nazr?

Classic.

Hold on, Hoss. You stated that AJ was championship level, but provided no facts or stats to back that up. Unless you were giving your opinion, the logic of your argument is that he was at a championship level because his team won the championship. The same argument applies to Nazr. Simply convince me with stats. If you are stating that his overall presence and influence on the team was at a championship level, I'm not inclined to disagree with you; however, your opening comment implies performance on the court.


Slightly? You may need to take another math course.

Yes, yes, yes, as a percentage change it is quite large: 13 is 30% greater than 10. But do you honestly consider raising the average to 13 points as a huge step up in his game? I mean, he averaged 17 ppg in the playoffs the previous year.


Motion, four-down offense with two dominating bigs isn't an offense that features scoring or assists from the point guard position.

But SJR is arguing that he played in a pass first role and had good assist numbers while in SA.


AJ 1999 > Parker 2003

Not sure where Parker comes into the equation, but I would expect that a 33 year old veteran playing in his 7th straight season as the starting PG would play better than a 20 year old second year player. But that is just me.


And that's just on the court. Off the court, in the lockerroom, during the lockout and every other intangible you can think of ... AJ was off the charts.

I don't think I have ever questioned AJ's intangibles. In fact, I believe I have stated that it is his intangibles that are getting his jersey in the rafters.


But this post was over when you compared AJ to Nazr.

I was simply using your logic because you failed to qualify what championship caliber meant.

[SequSpur]

I rest my case.

Exactly, the Spurs were looking for an Avery replacement every game he played.

[sandman]

I rest my case.

Isn't it bad forum ettiquette to use a Sequ rant to prove your point? :lol

[whottt]

Awesome :tu

Hmmmmm ... who to believe ... whottt and his brainwashed minions or Gregg Popovich?

Obvious.



Yeah...one thing Pop is known for...his truthfullness with the media and unwillingness to toe the company line.

[whottt]

Sandman...I think it's fair to describe AJ as a pass first PG...he damn sure wasn't a scoring PG, nor was he a defensive PG....

He was a pass first guy, he just wasn't a very good one, hence the 5.5.


It's funny...5.5 I think is a little under Parker's career average and that's probably the worst part of his game...all you need to know is that the best part of AJ's game is the worst part of Parker's and Parker still puts up better numbers...and he hasn't even been the primary ball handler yet in his career.

[whottt]

After studying the psyche of the AJ fan indepth for a long time now...

I no longer am mystified at how the Germans were stupid enough to allow Hitler to sieze so much power and become so popular.


Sometimes, undeserving people just have that ability to completely inspire blind loyalty within certain persons...no matter how undeserving they are of that loyalty.


I'd be willing to bet that in the deepest darkest corner of the mind of the AJ fan...they'd be willing to give up every championship the Spurs have if it could get AJ into the HOF.

[SRJ]

OK, even at 7.6 apg, that is not necessarily a high average for a "pass first" guard. Hell, TP has a career average of 5.5 apg in an offensive scheme where he is encouraged to shoot first.

It's not necessarily a high average, but how does it look in context?

In 1993, Avery's first year as a Spurs starter, he didn't finish in the top ten in the NBA. However:

In 1995, he finished 7th in the league.
In 1996, he finished 3rd.
In 1997, he didn't finish in the top ten.
In 1998, he didn't finish in the top ten.
In 1999, he finished 9th.
In 2000, his final year as a Spurs starter, he didn't finish in the top ten.

Of course, Tony Parker has yet to finish in the top ten once. But there are other circumstances involved. As we agreed, Parker is a scoring PG, not a pass-first PG. Also, consider offensive systems: Under Bob Hill, Avery finished 7th and 3rd. Under Popovich, Avery finished 9th - once, in three-plus seasons under him.

I don't think Avery's numbers are low in context; do you want 10+ APG from the PG position? That would be nice, but Stockton, Kidd, and Nash don't grow on trees.

[sandman]

After studying the psyche of the AJ fan indepth for a long time now...

I no longer am mystified at how the Germans were stupid enough to allow Hitler to sieze so much power and become so popular.

What is it with short guys and mustaches??

[SRJ]

Sandman...I think it's fair to describe AJ as a pass first PG...he damn sure wasn't a scoring PG, nor was he a defensive PG....

He was a pass first guy, he just wasn't a very good one, hence the 5.5.


It's funny...5.5 I think is a little under Parker's career average and that's probably the worst part of his game...all you need to know is that the best part of AJ's game is the worst part of Parker's and Parker still puts up better numbers...and he hasn't even been the primary ball handler yet in his career.

I already demonstrated that this is false, but keep on preaching, whott.

[SequSpur]

If Tony Parker was here in the mid 90s, this team would've won at least 7 championships. Avery was the weakest link for years. the Spurs tried repeatedly to find a replacement and when no one was available, they went to an 18 year old, french kid in the second round.

That should explain it to you right there, it's pretty black and white for those of you on the fence.

Avery was the shittiest starting point guard in the NBA. It's fucking documented.

[picnroll]

I rest my case.
Guess it was just an oversight the Spurs' management was going to give Manu AJ's number until Harris ranted.

[SRJ]

I'd be willing to bet that in the deepest darkest corner of the mind of the AJ fan...they'd be willing to give up every championship the Spurs have if it could get AJ into the HOF.

Why would I want AJ in the HOF? He's not a HOF.

He is worthy of the honor of a retired jersey, which is not at all the same thing. And I support the Spurs above all else. I knew AJ was through as a player when the Spurs released him, so I wasn't bothered by that. I don't root for the Mavericks even though AJ's their coach. I didn't like that the Spurs traded Malik Rose, but my loyalty is to the Silver and Black, not to Rose.

Keep on propping up those strawmen!

[whottt]

Guess it was just an oversight the Spurs' management was going to give Manu AJ's number until Harris ranted.



It was no oversight...

As Pop was handing Manu the jersey he told him and I quote, "The last guy to wear that number hit a championship clinching shot".


Pop and the Spurs had no intention of retiring that jersey...and once Don Harris made a big stink about it Pop was on the spot and his friendship with AJ was on the line...


It was a total and complete coup, and prior to that AJ wasn't near as hated as he is now.


So all they did is make sure that AJ is going to go down as the joke jersey retireee and the least liked player up there...

[sandman]

It's not necessarily a high average, but how does it look in context?

In 1993, Avery's first year as a Spurs starter, he didn't finish in the top ten in the NBA. However:

In 1995, he finished 7th in the league.
In 1996, he finished 3rd.
In 1997, he didn't finish in the top ten.
In 1998, he didn't finish in the top ten.
In 1999, he finished 9th.
In 2000, his final year as a Spurs starter, he didn't finish in the top ten.

Of course, Tony Parker has yet to finish in the top ten once. But there are other circumstances involved. As we agreed, Parker is a scoring PG, not a pass-first PG. Also, consider offensive systems: Under Bob Hill, Avery finished 7th and 3rd. Under Popovich, Avery finished 9th - once, in three-plus seasons under him.

I don't think Avery's numbers are low in context; do you want 10+ APG from the PG position? That would be nice, but Stockton, Kidd, and Nash don't grow on trees.

If we are talking pass-first, then those three would definitely have to set the standard by which all others are judged. A 7.5 apg average is a significant drop from their standard, but could still be considered above average. I guess I personally have a hard time reconciling "pass-first" with a player who had average assists totals outside of a span of 5 years, but if we are limiting the discussion to his stint as the Spurs starter, the point is valid.

[whottt]

Why would I want AJ in the HOF? He's not a HOF.

He is worthy of the honor of a retired jersey, which is not at all the same thing. And I support the Spurs above all else. I knew AJ was through as a player when the Spurs released him, so I wasn't bothered by that. I don't root for the Mavericks even though AJ's their coach. I didn't like that the Spurs traded Malik Rose, but my loyalty is to the Silver and Black, not to Rose.

Keep on propping up those strawmen!


I don't know...I just know AJ fans are fascist....and this whole jersey retirement thing is one of the most fascist wrong ever imposed upon Spursfans...


There are more people against this jersey retirement than any other player up there.

[Dex]

All I gotta say is this completely opens the door for Bruce, Manu, AND Parker. All of them have probably contributed more to this organization than AJ did, regardless of what kind of warm spot they had in people's hearts.

Hell, if we're retiring fan favorites, put Willis' number in the rafters.

[SRJ]

but if we are limiting the discussion to his stint as the Spurs starter, the point is valid.

The reason I'm doing that is because the jersey retirement is about his time as a Spur, not his career.

Conversely, the Spurs would have no grounds to retire the jerseys of Moses Malone or Dominique Wilkins, two HOFers who spent one of their last seasons as Spurs.

[Spurs Brazil]

Avery Johnson’s number to be retired by the Spurs


Art Garcia | Mavs.com
Posted: Oct. 2, 2007


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Though his current NBA home is in Dallas, the playing career of Avery Johnson will always be associated with San Antonio. Soon, there’s going to be a permanent reminder.

Johnson is receiving an early Christmas gift in the Alamo City with the retirement of his jersey by the Spurs. The ceremony to place No. 6 in the rafters of the SBC Center is set for Dec. 22 during San Antonio’s game against the Los Angeles Clippers.

Spurs coach Gregg Popovich and owner Peter Holt told Johnson about the honor this summer. Johnson, along with David Robinson and Sean Elliott, were considered the heart of San Antonio’s first championship team in 1999. The numbers of Robinson and Elliott are already hanging in the arena.

“That’s a really special deal,” Johnson said Tuesday after the first practice of training camp. “I got that call from Peter and Pop this summer, and it’s something to really be excited about. I don’t think I ever would have thought when I started playing in the NBA I’d get my jersey retired.”

Johnson is San Antonio’s all-time assists leader, and ranks in the top seven in scoring, games played and steals. His baseline jumper in Game 5 of the 1999 NBA Finals clinched the Spurs’ first title.

“I’m ecstatic about that,” said first-year Mavericks assistant Mario Elie, also Johnson’s backcourt partner on the 1999 Spurs. “Avery is an amazing man, father and part of the community. I just remember how much joy he had when he hit that shot and we won the championship.

“I had the pleasure of playing with three of those guys up there, and I knew it was only a matter of time for Avery. We both have such a special relationship because of the hard road we took to the NBA, and it’s going to be hard for me to hold back the tears when it happens.”

Johnson had one request for the ceremony.

“We’re not having it when the Mavericks play them,” he said, referring to a break in the Mavs' schedule. “Pop and I both agreed to that, so I’m really excited about that. It’s going to be a special night for me and my family, and all of the people that invested in me.”

http://www.nba.com/mavericks/news/Avery_Johnson_number_100207.html

[sandman]

The reason I'm doing that is because the jersey retirement is about his time as a Spur, not his career.

Conversely, the Spurs would have no grounds to retire the jerseys of Moses Malone or Dominique Wilkins, two HOFers who spent one of their last seasons as Spurs.

But if the rest of his career does not support those numbers, is that indicative of him or the system he was playing in?

I am a huge UCLA and Cowboys fan, but I know that Aikman would not have won those Super Bowls on another team. He was the ultimate system QB.

So the question is, did AJ make the system, or did the system make AJ?

[Dex]

I'm glad they aren't doing it at a Mavericks a game.

For one, it lets AJ soak up his moment without having to act tough for his team. Regardless of whether you think he deserves it, the guy should at least be able to enjoy the night.

Secondly, I had to see a team get worked-up to beat another team over a ring ceremony / retirement / something similar. I like for the reasons to come on the court, not for some pissed off Maverick team wanting to make a big deal of their coaches retirement ceremony on ANOTHER team.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Woot. :elephant I think he deserves it.

[dropstep4421]

they should've retired his jump shot

[picnroll]

It was no oversight...

...
In his speech Avery definitely needs to thank Harris for making this all possible.

[Brutalis]

Why?

His total betrayal speaks volumes of what kind of person he is. You don't steal your former teams style, get beat in the process and then get your jersey retired. Retarded. You SA folk either have too much class or are soft.

[Hemotivo]

The Spurs were trying to get a better point guard through a trade, free agency or draft every fucking minute Avery was here.

Wake the fuck up.... The Spurs would've been 10 times better without him. Take Tony Parker for example... a second round pick, 18 year old ran his ass out of town.

Wake the fuck up already... Avery received some Drob benefit, that's it.

Avery is the most overrated Spur ever.
:clap

[timvp]

Yeah...one thing Pop is known for...his truthfullness with the media and unwillingness to toe the company line.It was Pop's idea.

Try again.

Pop + timvp + David Robinson + Peter Holt > whottt + Sequ

[objective]

Yeah, the 1994 Warriors were loaded with great bigs.

this was posted in response to this:


And there's a reason he couldn't hold a job as a 3rd stringer on any team that didn't have an All Time Great NBA bigman.

While AJ wasn't the 3rd stringer on that Warriors team (an unfortunate exaggeration), it's a joke to use Johnson's time in GS as some sort of validation of how good he was as a player.

AJ was signed to be the back-up in GS. A 10 minute a game back-up, and he was only signed to a one year guaranteed deal, because the cheap Spurs wouldn't even guarantee him one year.

The ONLY reason AJ was a starter in GS was because Hardaway shredded his knee before the season started. That's why he was the starter, because of injury. And even though Hardaway's future was in doubt as a player, GS still didn't put up a fight to keep Avery from signing with the Spurs after Pop got the gig.

[Поповић]

A well deserved award. Spurs fans can't begrudge AJ taking a good opportunity for his second career. Of course they will, because most of them hopped on the bandwagon after 2005.

[timvp]

Hold on, Hoss. You stated that AJ was championship level, but provided no facts or stats to back that up. Unless you were giving your opinion, the logic of your argument is that he was at a championship level because his team won the championship. The same argument applies to Nazr. Simply convince me with stats. If you are stating that his overall presence and influence on the team was at a championship level, I'm not inclined to disagree with you; however, your opening comment implies performance on the court.If you need stats to tell you AJ > Nazr, it might be too late.


Yes, yes, yes, as a percentage change it is quite large: 13 is 30% greater than 10. But do you honestly consider raising the average to 13 points as a huge step up in his game? I mean, he averaged 17 ppg in the playoffs the previous year.
30% is a lot larger than "slightly". And I've already covered how AJ owned Kidd, Nash and KJ.

AJ destroyed the best trio of point guards of all-time, yet Spurs fans in here want to label him a scrub. That'd be like if Nazr owned Wilt, Russell and Robinson and then Spurs fans said he was a bench warmer along for the rid.



But SJR is arguing that he played in a pass first role and had good assist numbers while in SA. AJ's role changed from year to year. In 1995, he was a pass first point guard. In 1999, he played a role similar to how Tony Parker plays now ... minus the scoring and defense :)


Not sure where Parker comes into the equation, but I would expect that a 33 year old veteran playing in his 7th straight season as the starting PG would play better than a 20 year old second year player. But that is just me.Would you say Nazr = Parker?


I don't think I have ever questioned AJ's intangibles. In fact, I believe I have stated that it is his intangibles that are getting his jersey in the rafters.I applaud you for recognizing his intangibles.

Talent alone doesn't win championships. You don't win championships without intangibles. That's why the Mavs and the Suns are the Mavs and the Suns. The dirty little secret is the Spurs used to be in the same boat. Luckily, AJ helped the Spurs get out of that boat and onto the land where only champions roam.

[whottt]

“That’s a really special deal,” Johnson said Tuesday after the first practice of training camp. “I got that call from Peter and Pop this summer, and it’s something to really be excited about. I don’t think I ever would have thought when I started playing in the NBA I’d get my jersey retired.”






Sincerely,

The same guy who said, "They're sending a boy to do a man's job" and, "let him make his own number".


God it's sweet AJ got his fucking ass beat into the dirt and was humiliated almost as badly in the playoffs the last 2 years as he was by Sam Cassell and Derek Fisher...

It did wonders for his shitty attitude...


As long as AJ is going to be humble...I have no problems with him getting in on mascot appeal...


I will continue to be outraged at those who claim he deserves be up there based on his play though....I will continue to question their knowledge of the game.




By the way...

Pretty sure Pop is trying to avoid an ugly scene...it's kind of already been promised to AJ that his jersey was going to be retired the day they took the number back from Manu...


And with every passing year he becomes less popular...not only because he coaches the Mavs...but also because Parker fucking owns him as a PG and makes any statistical argument for his jersey being retired more and more of a joke with each passing game.



If he gets any less popular the Spurs are going to be caught between a rock and a hard place trying to pull off his jersey retirement....



Luckily for AJ, Pop choked against him 2 years ago...if we'd have won that series, AJ wouldn't have a prayer of getting up there...

No one gets more scorn than a loser...that win over us is the only thing that saved his jersey retirement hopes...at least with the win he still maintained a shred of respect in SA.

[timvp]

After studying the psyche of the Coyote fan indepth for a long time now...

I no longer am mystified at how the Germans were stupid enough to allow Hitler to sieze so much power and become so popular.


Sometimes, undeserving people just have that ability to completely inspire blind loyalty within certain persons...no matter how undeserving they are of that loyalty.


I'd be willing to bet that in the deepest darkest corner of the mind of us Coyote fan...they'd be willing to give up every championship the Spurs have if it could get the Coyote's pelt into the rafters.

[whottt]

Timvp...will you be wearing a shirt paying tribute to his classy statements about Manu and Parker when you attend his retirement...or will you just kind of...forget about it and think it better left swept under the rug?


Wouldn't want AJ's actual words to be correctly attributed to him, now would we?

The sheep might then correctly conclude he's every bit the asshole Damon Stoudamire was...and we wouldn't want that(reality)...

[whottt]

this was posted in response to this:



While AJ wasn't the 3rd stringer on that Warriors team (an unfortunate exaggeration), it's a joke to use Johnson's time in GS as some sort of validation of how good he was as a player.

AJ was signed to be the back-up in GS. A 10 minute a game back-up, and he was only signed to a one year guaranteed deal, because the cheap Spurs wouldn't even guarantee him one year.

The ONLY reason AJ was a starter in GS was because Hardaway shredded his knee before the season started. That's why he was the starter, because of injury. And even though Hardaway's future was in doubt as a player, GS still didn't put up a fight to keep Avery from signing with the Spurs after Pop got the gig.



Not only that...but that Warrior team had Chris Webber on it...


He's not going to be a HOF'er, because he's choking whining cancerous bitch...but game wise, he was definitely a HOF caliber bigman.