Is this year guaranteed to be Elson's last? [Archive]

Darkwaters

10-07-2007, 04:10 PM

I think Elson's days are numbered. He wasn't all too impressive this last season. Of course, if he shows significant improvement everthing could change. But lets consider who the Spurs have under contract past this season:

Tim Duncan
Fabricio Oberto
Matt Bonner
Ian Mahinmi

It is assumed also that Tiago Splitter will sign next season. So add him to the mix.

Traditionally a team carries 5 active bigs and has a 6th on IR (in this case Mahinmi who will be in Austin). So the Spurs could seek a 5th active big to replace Horry. Elson could very well be a cheap option, but personally I think they will probably seek out a veteran shot-blocker.

So, unless Elson improves significantly or Splitter gets seriously injured this season then I think hes gone.

timvp

10-07-2007, 04:11 PM

What are Elson's chances to remain a Spur after this season?

0%?

People are assuming that Splitter will come in and Elson will go out . . .

But 'what if' Mahinmi doesn't show anything while Elson somehow manages to improve in his second season as a Spur?

Is it ridiculous to think that maybe, just maybe, the Spurs keep Elson around as insurance?

Or are his days straight up numbered?Nice thread.

He'd definitely have to play better than he did last season to warrant a roster spot next season. Splitter is basically a younger Elson with better upside.

That said, Elson has a year under his belt and it's a lock that he has a better year. Pop has been praising him in training camp (then again, Pop was praising him last year at this time, too). If he can take a substantial step forward, especially defensively, he could be worth keeping around.

The good thing is that other teams will know he's a system player and won't overpay him. If the Spurs want him back, I imagine it'd be for a relatively cheap contract.

A related question is do Spurs fans expect Oberto to start the entire season? Should Elson be given a chance to win the starting spot or should Oberto keep it because he's a proven money player?

SenorSpur

10-07-2007, 04:13 PM

Good question. I would guess it depends upon how much or how little improvements Elson shows this season - good health notwithstanding.

From everything we hear, it takes most players about a full season to learn the complicated intracacies of the their complex system. That said, there's no question, the Spurs could use the frontcourt depth - and best of all he should come cheaply.

To answer Timvp's question, I think Elson should be given the same chance as last year to win the starting spot. I expect to see him resume as a starter sometime during the season. If nothing more than to give the frontline an athletic jolt against teams like PHX, GS.

Bruno

10-07-2007, 04:14 PM

It depends on Horry, Mahinmi and Elson.

Spurs needs 5 PF/C on the active roster. Duncan, Bonner and Oberto are under contract. Splitter will sign and I don't see Spurs sending him in Austin given his level in Europe.

So the question is : who will be the 5th PF/C ?
It could be Horry if he decide to play one more year.
It could be Mahinmi if he improves quickly enough but I wouldn't be surprised to see him spending one more year in Austin.
It could be Elson if he is good enough this year and if Mahinmi is still too raw.
Or it could be a vet free agent if Horry retires and Mahinmi and Elson sucks.

exstatic

10-07-2007, 04:14 PM

I'd say his chances were slim to none, none being if he plays the same shitty defensive rotations this year. Even in split minutes, any Spur as athletic as Elson should be blocking 1.5-2 shots per game in a system that funnels penetrators to the baseline.

Oh, and I think Horry is gonzo. He said he might come back, but I think that's a ploy to avoid the "farewell tour" that he says he doesn't want.

SenorSpur

10-07-2007, 04:19 PM

objective

10-07-2007, 04:20 PM

I agree that Splitter is better, maybe even significantly better, and personally I'd take a rookie Splitter over Elson any day.

Even if Oberto was injured and Elson started a bulk of the season, he's still unlikely to put up big numbers, any improvement in Elson's play would be the kind of thing that wouldn't make a big impact in the stat sheet. So other teams wouldn't have big numbers to justify offering a sizable contract to a 32 year old center next summer.

So I got to thinking that if Elson was still in the same price range or less (2-3 million) . . . the Spurs could do worse in an end-of-the-bench big man.

objective

10-07-2007, 04:21 PM

Bonner is referenced as a PF/C. However he plays more like a SF. Isn't he widely assumed to be the 3-pt specialist after Horry hangs 'em up? If so, does he truly count as a Big?

if replacing Horry, who only plays at PF, then Bonner counts as a big.

ploto

10-07-2007, 04:36 PM

Nice thread.

He'd definitely have to play better than he did last season to warrant a roster spot next season. Splitter is basically a younger Elson with better upside.

That said, Elson has a year under his belt and it's a lock that he has a better year. Pop has been praising him in training camp (then again, Pop was praising him last year at this time, too). If he can take a substantial step forward, especially defensively, he could be worth keeping around.

The good thing is that other teams will know he's a system player and won't overpay him. If the Spurs want him back, I imagine it'd be for a relatively cheap contract.
And every time Elson does not play, people will claim it is to keep his value down so the Spurs can re-sign him next summer for cheap. :D

boutons_

10-07-2007, 04:38 PM

"Should Elson be given a chance to win the starting spot"

Did Pop say Elson wasn't getting a chance?

"The harder one works, the luckier one gets"

timvp

10-07-2007, 05:03 PM

And every time Elson does not play, people will claim it is to keep his value down so the Spurs can re-sign him next summer for cheap. :DElson could average 20 and 10 and other teams will still know he's a product of the system.

Did Pop say Elson wasn't getting a chance? No. I'm saying should he be given a chance since we know that Oberto is the money player anyways. Does it make sense to play Elson more minutes than Oberto since when it comes down to it, Oberto will be the go-to option in the playoffs?

I look at Elson like I used to look at Rasho. Rasho and Elson both have the ability to be good regular season players. They can produce and help you win regular season games. However, once the lights shine bright and it's playoff time, both Rasho and Elson become much, much less valuable.

peskypesky

10-07-2007, 05:22 PM

My prediction is that Elson will have a better season than last year. Now that he has one year under his belt with the Spurs and Pop, he'll be more comfortable with the system, with his team-mates and with his role.

Remember how lame Oberto seemed in his first season?

Steve-O-Matic

10-07-2007, 05:28 PM

Elson is a very nice complement to Oberto in what is ostensibly a platoon situation at center. Oberto is the more skilled player who starts, gets the majority of the minutes, and has the strength and ability to bang with the NBA's more bullish centers. Elson, on the other hand, brings energy off the bench and the quickness to defend and run with the more agile and nimble centers. This duo has a chance to really develop into an above average 1-2 combination this season, and barring a major injury or unexpected lack of development, I would certainly expect to see the Spurs try to retain Elson beyond this season.

picnroll

10-07-2007, 05:30 PM

Dpends on how well he plays and the money he commands, two unknowns. Likely that Splitter will take the same year to fit intot he Spurs system that others have.

Darkwaters

10-07-2007, 05:55 PM

SenorSpur

10-07-2007, 06:07 PM

RobinsontoDuncan

10-07-2007, 06:14 PM

6 big men? i dont know if that'll work

GINNNNNNNNNNNNOBILI

10-07-2007, 06:15 PM

Well.. he might still be our best choice at defending Dirk... so he might still have a spot on the team

Steve-O-Matic

10-07-2007, 06:36 PM

6 big men? i dont know if that'll work
With 15 man rosters now, 6 PF/C's is the appropriate amount.

Spurs Dynasty 21

10-07-2007, 06:37 PM

this will be last year

no way he even sees the floor next year with Splitter coming

Spurs Brazil

10-07-2007, 06:38 PM

A related question is do Spurs fans expect Oberto to start the entire season? Should Elson be given a chance to win the starting spot or should Oberto keep it because he's a proven money player?

I'd start Oberto but I want to see how he'll play. Oberto was great on thr playoffs but bad in regular season.

Steve-O-Matic

10-07-2007, 06:44 PM

Here's John Hollinger's take on Elson from ESPN.com Insider...

2006-07 season: It seems one of the first things the Spurs did after they signed Elson was sit him down and explain that he's not a jump shooter. Elson happily fired away from 15 feet as a Nugget, taking 39.1 percent of his shots from outside in his final season in Denver. That dipped to just 16.0 percent last year, as the Spurs had him taking most of his tries in the paint. Elson's overall percentage didn't improve because he shot worse from close-in, but the revised mix makes a lot of sense.

Elson had his best season as a rebounder by far. He's been well below average in that respect his whole career, but last season he was right around the average for centers. He also had a career best in Player Efficiency Rating, and it would have been even better if he stopped throwing the ball to the other team. His high turnover ratio was the result of repeatedly botched high-low passes to Tim Duncan, something that caused his role to diminish rapidly during the course of the postseason.

Scouting report: A slender 7-footer, Elson runs the floor very well for a big man and gets himself some easy transition buckets this way. That also helps on defense, as the Spurs can afford to play their two 7-footers together without getting beat in transition.

Elson moves his feet well on D and can be used against much smaller opponents, and his combo of length and quickness makes him very useful in zones. However, his lack of physicality is a liability against stronger centers.

Offensively, he's fairly useless in the half court but will spring a jump hook on opponents when he catches the ball in the post.

2007-08 outlook: People talk about Elson as if he's an up-and-coming player, but he's actually 31 years old. Nonetheless, there's still a chance he could improve on last season's numbers. All he has to do is cut down on the turnovers, something that hadn't been a problem until last season.

Additionally, Elson is entering the final year of his contract so he has some incentive to dial it up. He'll once again be in a time-share situation with Fabricio Oberto, and Robert Horry and Matt Bonner also will cut into his minutes. Nonetheless, if he can play a role on a championship team one more time, somebody is likely to overpay for him next summer.

RuffnReadyOzStyle

10-07-2007, 06:54 PM

Seems to me that Elson and Oberto should compete for the starting role all season, and even oscillate as matchups demand. They have distinctly different games and should be treated as such. As long as they are not 'ego' guys, and it seems that they aren't, it should really matter who starts until Pop settles down on a rotation in March as he always does.

As for whether Elson stays or not, I think it will depend on his defence and rebounding this year. If he can play successfully within the system, why not keep him around for insurance - Mahinmi may not be ready to contribute next year, and it would be risky to have both Mahinmi and Splitter still learning the system/developing without a veteran able to step in if said development proceeds slower than expected.

wildbill2u

10-07-2007, 06:56 PM

Nice thread.

A related question is do Spurs fans expect Oberto to start the entire season? Should Elson be given a chance to win the starting spot or should Oberto keep it because he's a proven money player?
I expect Pop to play them according to their continuing performance leavened with some attention to the matchups.

Of all the coaches in the league I think Pop really means it when he says playing time depends on who is playing best. Since he really means it, the players respect his decisions more than some coaches who only give lip service to the players relative ability and attitude.

boutons_

10-07-2007, 07:07 PM

I expect Fabricio has earned the starters spot based on his Playoff contribution.

We know Pop doesn't like to change the starting lineup, so any change is a big change. I expect Fabricio will start next month and keep starting for probably all season. Fab plays smarter, which wins over Francisco's better athleticism.

If only we could put Fab's head on Fran's body.

Samr

10-07-2007, 07:42 PM

A bigman lineup of Duncan, Oberto, Splitter, Elson, Bonner and Mahinmi would be farely solid looking forward. It provides a variety of frontcourt looks, blends youth with veterans and thereby provides a nurturing environment for Splitter and Ian.

Ok, I know this is easily going to be the dumbest question of the day.... but I must know the answer, if even just to put an end to my dreams.....

Can Mahinmi, in a big lineup, play a large/long SF?

For some perspective, Spurs.com lists Mahinmi as 6'11" and 230 lbs. Andrei Kirilenko is listed as 6'9" and 227 lbs.

Mr.Bottomtooth

10-07-2007, 07:45 PM

I doubt it. He can probably play decent SF if he worked at it but the only way I see him being put in the game as a SF is if he develops a 3-point shot.

ChumpDumper

10-07-2007, 07:56 PM

Elson's status will be up in the air well into next summer, but really all he has to do to solidify it is to improve his defensive rotations. He was an adequate rebounder last season and his speed puts tremendous pressure on defenses in transition. We probably should get him back to jump shooting more.

Ian is never going to be a three. He has zero perimeter skills.

spurster

10-07-2007, 08:49 PM

Elson's last year? Yes

Playing time? 12 min/game

E20

10-07-2007, 11:32 PM

Elson = Nazr

Both have been befuddled by Oberto.

Marcus Bryant

10-08-2007, 09:18 AM

As of now he seems likely to be moving on due to the numbers game, unless he is content to ride the pine as the 6th PF/C. Of course, this assumes that Mahinmi doesn't need more development in Austin in 2008-09.

Still, if he could improve defensively he'd be a nice part of the frontcourt rotation, especially with his length and athleticism.

wildchild

10-08-2007, 09:34 AM

Indazone

10-08-2007, 09:47 AM

Elson - Maybe a cheap version of Mikki Moore. Utility player.

wildchild

10-08-2007, 09:53 AM

Elson - Maybe a cheap version of Mikki Moore. Utility player.

:rolleyes

Mike Moore have the outside shot, Elson not. Mikki Moore>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Elson.

Dirt cheap version...

AFBlue

11-25-2007, 11:33 PM

small bump...

Maybe Elson's uninspiring play of late can be blamed on the mask....

Or maybe he's just not a good player. (I vote this way)

Either way, if he doesn't improve the way the Spurs FO thinks he should, there's no way he's back next season. Mahinmi will learn how not to foul and Splitter will come across the pond next season. Once that happens, there will be no need for this guy.

Let me be the first to say....Thank God.

remingtonbo2001

11-26-2007, 12:09 AM

:rolleyes

Mike Moore have the outside shot, Elson not. Mikki Moore>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Elson.

Dirt cheap version...

Elson can knock down the outside jumpshot. He's knocked down a few this season. The ability is there when needed. Personally, I would much rather have Elson than Mikkey Moore. Elson is good. He just needs to become more aware, both offensively and defensively. I think Fabi picked up on the system real quick, which is why he won the starting spot. I feel Fabi has a good feel for both ends of the floor. His value is truely underrated. Fabi's game is completely different than Elson. Like Brent said, be like the Ameboia. Elson's abilities fit with the needs of our team, so if his services are relatively cheap, we're keeping him. We just need to get that B-ball IQ a little higher.
Another dose of the Rodeo Road Trip should help.

T Park

11-26-2007, 01:18 AM

Splitter is Elson just with more upside!??!?!

I can't believe TIMVP posted this...

TDMVPDPOY

11-26-2007, 01:38 AM

splitter has more upside > mahinmi

give splitter the starting job....

timvp

11-26-2007, 02:04 AM

Splitter is Elson just with more upside!??!?!

I can't believe TIMVP posted this...What's wrong with it? That's about as true as it gets. Right now, Splitter and Elson are pretty much the same. The difference is Splitter is almost a decade younger.

AFBlue

11-26-2007, 08:04 AM

What's wrong with it? That's about as true as it gets. Right now, Splitter and Elson are pretty much the same. The difference is Splitter is almost a decade younger.

While Elson and Splitter are both athletic bigs that can run the floor, I can see where T Park questioned the comparison.

Though we won't know until he comes over here, it appears that Splitter is....

- More fundamentally sound defensively and understands the game on defense better than Elson.

- More skilled in the post offensively and understands the game on offense better than Elson.

- Capable of developing his game and taking it to another level.

I guess the complaint is that a comparison to Elson sells Splitter short. Elson is a third-string F/C and always has been, while Splitter has the ability to be the starting C for this team down the line.

Perhaps the better long-term comparison is a combination of Elson and Oberto....an athletic big that runs the floor and is always there to make the smart play.

Dex

11-26-2007, 08:36 AM

What's wrong with it? That's about as true as it gets. Right now, Splitter and Elson are pretty much the same. The difference is Splitter is almost a decade younger.

I don't disagree with you often, LJ. But I can't say I really get this one either.

From what I've seen of a Splitter, he seemed like a very raw but typical low-post center. A lot of his work was done on putbacks and on the boards, and he usually went to work on offense posting up.

Elson ain't so bad on the boards, but unless he's got a breakaway dunk, he's not banging the ball into the paint.

Also, he seemed very Anti-Francisco in that his one saving grace seems to be his basketball IQ. While not yet athletically primed or experienced, he seemed to have a good understanding of the national game and I thought he showed a knack for finding the right spots and making the smart plays. I don't think anyone is going to try to talk up Elson's court smarts.

diego

11-26-2007, 08:39 AM

where is the chorus of "elson is a proven nba quality player, splitter's stats in fiba basketball dont mean anything in this league" ?

for the record, i think splitter will be good for us because he is physical and used to be a role playing defensive big, not because he has an amazing feel for the game or anything beyond average offensive ability. he has very little in common with elson, which should be a good thing.

AFBlue

11-26-2007, 09:06 AM

where is the chorus of "elson is a proven nba quality player, splitter's stats in fiba basketball dont mean anything in this league" ?

Except that in 5 seasons, Elson hasn't proven crap. He only got PT in Denver because their bigs are ALWAYS injured. And when they weren't, he didn't play.

The Spurs FO seems to think he should've been all-world and they continue to marvel at his speed/quickness. But the guy just flat-out doesn't have the ability/competency to turn that athleticism into consistent production on offense or defense.

Bottom Line: It's hard to be worse than Elson...even if Splitter has never set foot on an NBA court.

wildbill2u

11-26-2007, 10:12 AM

telecomguy

11-26-2007, 11:50 AM

Does Elson remind anyone of NAZR? Occasional flashes of talent eclipsed by average to sub-par play the rest of the time?

I'd like to see him do well this year, just for the team if not for himself. Otherwise, he'll become excess baggage next year.

Look guys, if Elson can half-ass defend Dirk in the playoffs, i don't care if he doesn't score or do anything during the regular season. I still believe he has the atheleticism, quickness, and length to bother Dirk so that we don't have to constantaly double-team Dirk and leave JHoward, JET and Stackhouse to kill us with the 3's. I still believe that Elson was signed primarily to guard tall 4/5 who can hit jumpers like Dirk because the 2005-2006 Spurs didn't have anyone who could stop Dirk (one of the reasons why we lost).

AFBlue

11-26-2007, 01:33 PM

Elson can knock down the outside jumpshot. He's knocked down a few this season. The ability is there when needed. Personally, I would much rather have Elson than Mikkey Moore. Elson is good. He just needs to become more aware, both offensively and defensively. I think Fabi picked up on the system real quick, which is why he won the starting spot. I feel Fabi has a good feel for both ends of the floor. His value is truely underrated. Fabi's game is completely different than Elson. Like Brent said, be like the Ameboia. Elson's abilities fit with the needs of our team, so if his services are relatively cheap, we're keeping him. We just need to get that B-ball IQ a little higher.
Another dose of the Rodeo Road Trip should help.

I'd love to see Elson's FG% on that 18-footer, because it gets talked up like it's automatic. Truth is, he doesn't take it or make it enough to make up for his defensive shortcomings, IMO.

Elson does provide a different skill set from any other player on this team THIS YEAR, but that should not be the case next year.

Both Splitter and Mahinmi can run the court effectively and will most likely play more capable defense than Elson does. The only thing they'll be lacking is the 18ft shot that Elson pulls out once every few games.

Bottom Line: Most of what Elson brings can easily be duplicated by cheaper players already on this team. And what cannot be immediately duplicated is NOT worth $3M/yr...because I seriously doubt Elson comes back for less.

AFBlue

11-26-2007, 01:38 PM

Look guys, if Elson can half-ass defend Dirk in the playoffs, i don't care if he doesn't score or do anything during the regular season. I still believe he has the atheleticism, quickness, and length to bother Dirk so that we don't have to constantaly double-team Dirk and leave JHoward, JET and Stackhouse to kill us with the 3's. I still believe that Elson was signed primarily to guard tall 4/5 who can hit jumpers like Dirk because the 2005-2006 Spurs didn't have anyone who could stop Dirk (one of the reasons why we lost).

This is not necessarily a thread about how crappy Elson is, though I happen to think he's worthless and that your hopes of him being some sort of "dirk stopper" are foolish.

This is about whether he'll be around here next year, and I just can't see it being the case. Using your logic, Mahinmi should be just as effective if not more effective on Dirk as he is equally as long, quick, and athletic.

Bottom Line: Any notion that Elson is a "dirk stopper" should be stopped, as should any thought that Mahinmi and/or Splitter would be less effective in that regard.

wildchild

11-26-2007, 08:08 PM

This is not necessarily a thread about how crappy Elson is, though I happen to think he's worthless and that your hopes of him being some sort of "dirk stopper" are foolish.

This is about whether he'll be around here next year, and I just can't see it being the case. Using your logic, Mahinmi should be just as effective if not more effective on Dirk as he is equally as long, quick, and athletic.

Bottom Line: Any notion that Elson is a "dirk stopper" should be stopped, as should any thought that Mahinmi and/or Splitter would be less effective in that regard.

:tu

who did guard Dirk last Mavs-Pacers? :wtf
really, the guy did a great job on D (not, Jermaine not)

slayermin

11-26-2007, 08:37 PM

His basketball IQ isn't that high and at 31, he's probably at his zenith in that regard. I love his athleticism and the way he runs. He runs like a deer.

I know he's smart and it seems like he cares about his play. Hopefully something will click with him during the regular season.

T Park

11-26-2007, 09:16 PM

Splitter right now is way better than Elson.

More fundamental, better rebounder, better shotblocker.

From what I've seen of his games online, hes just a better player.

Also being way younger and potentially a 10 and 10 guy.

timvp

11-27-2007, 01:51 AM

:lol @ timvp turning into the Elson apologist. I've been as historically anti-Elson as anyone but let's not go overboard. When he's right, he's still an above average backup center. That's not saying much but he's not absolute garbage.

Splitter is a good talent but let's not pretend that if he were on the Spurs he'd be playing more minutes than Udoka is playing. If Elson and Splitter were both on the team, I'd say that this season Elson would average more minutes. Of course, Splitter would pass him down the road (probably beginning in his second season) but Splitter is still a role player at the center spot who'd need a full year of indoctrination to produce.

P.S.

Where the heck are the Elson supporters? I get hated on for bashing Elson and now when I'm trying to defend Elson, those Elson-backers are no where to be found :lol

whottt, Bruno, Aggie Hoopsfan, T Park version 2006, 50 Cent, anyone?

BeerIsGood!

11-27-2007, 03:08 AM

timvp actually calling out his conjoined twin T Park? :wow

T Park

11-27-2007, 03:16 AM

I like Elson but he is what he is.

A mediocre bench center, I fully admitted that going into the playoffs last year.

Now with him this year obviously not having improved any, he is what he is.

I've put all my eggs into the Splitter basket no question :lol

T Park

11-27-2007, 03:16 AM

timvp actually calling out his conjoined twin T Park?

WTF? :wtf

T Park

11-27-2007, 03:18 AM

I know he's smart and it seems like he cares about his play. Hopefully something will click with him during the regular season.

unfortunately we could copy and past that statement directly from last season to now.

T Park

11-27-2007, 03:19 AM

Splitter is a good talent but let's not pretend that if he were on the Spurs he'd be playing more minutes than Udoka is playing. I

I won't disagree with that.

HOWEVER!

In a game like tonight, someone like Splitter, to rest Oberto and team with Duncan would've been nice.

BeerIsGood!

11-27-2007, 03:19 AM

WTF? :wtf
just a little joke...

about not remembering a time I saw you disagree with timvp.

Bruno

11-27-2007, 03:35 AM

Where the heck are the Elson supporters? I get hated on for bashing Elson and now when I'm trying to defend Elson, those Elson-backers are no where to be found :lol

whottt, Bruno, Aggie Hoopsfan, T Park version 2006, 50 Cent, anyone?

I don't have the need to go after every poster on Spurstalk who says something bad on Elson.

When Spurs signed Elson, I've said, unlike most posters here saying that Elson was horrible, "Elson isn't a good player but he is still a serviceable seven footer.". One year after, it seems that I was quite right on that. Elson is an inconsistent player but I'm not sure he is way more inconsistent than other recent Spurs bigmen (Oberto, Bonner, Nazr, Rasho..).

ArgSpursFan.

11-27-2007, 07:53 AM

And we could've got Scola for about the same money most of our scrubs bigs make. :pctoss
And I called it a year ago.

wildchild

11-27-2007, 08:03 AM

I don't have the need to go after every poster on Spurstalk who says something bad on Elson.

When Spurs signed Elson, I've said, unlike most posters here saying that Elson was horrible, "Elson isn't a good player but he is still a serviceable seven footer.". One year after, it seems that I was quite right on that. Elson is an inconsistent player but I'm not sure he is way more inconsistent than other recent Spurs bigmen (Oberto, Bonner, Nazr, Rasho..).

Oberto is an inconsistent player? I don't understand why you saying that. He played pretty well last playoffs, he was playing so hard this regular season.

Fabricio Oberto had his fifth straight really solid outing. Tonight he finished with 13 points and six rebounds in 25 minutes of action. Over his last five games, Oberto is averaging 8.6 points and 7.6 rebounds in 23.6 minutes per game. That is amazing production from Oberto in limited minutes. If he plays anywhere close to as well the rest of the league, the Spurs will be ecstatic

Oberto excelled. He cemented his place as center. You (Bruno) know, Oberto, the player you said should be traded last summer

Your hatred knows no bounds?
However if you hate Oberto, I love him.

if Sequ hates Bonner, I like him?
Sequtrans:Il y a trop de haine dans ce monde.

ArgSpursFan.

11-27-2007, 08:09 AM

if Sequ hates Bonner, I like him?

.

Bonner sucks,all he does is hit a 3 every once in a while,and that's it. He is a choker,so you can't count on him to hit a key 3 in a playoff game. Shitty Difense, below average rebounder and no low post moves at all.
With so many 3 pts Specialist the spurs have in the perimeter,we don't need a fucking PF hiting a 3 at 0.300 % on garbage time.
Surry guys,but you're gonna have to open your eyes.
Bonner SUCKS.

wildchild

11-27-2007, 08:12 AM

Bonner sucks,all he does is hit a 3 every once in a while,and that's it. He is a choker,so you can't count on him to hit a key 3 in a playoff game. Shitty Difense, below average rebounder and no low post moves at all.
With so many 3 pts Specialist the spurs have in the perimeter,we don't need a fucking PF hiting a 3 at 0.300 % on garbage time.
Surry guys,but you're gonna have to open your eyes.
Bonner SUCKS.

If Sequ hates Bonner, I like him??
sarcasm, dude. Sarcasm

ArgSpursFan.

11-27-2007, 08:13 AM

sarcasm, dude. Sarcasm

got it.

Bruno

11-27-2007, 08:57 AM

Oberto is an inconsistent player? I don't understand why you saying that. He played pretty well last playoffs, he was playing so hard this regular season.

I say that Oberto is inconsistent because he is inconsistent.
He has been very good last playoffs especially against Utah last year but he has never been able to play at a high level during a whole season.
Seems you like to seek timvp's quote, you should be able to find some quotes of him saying the same thing.
And I don't hate Oberto, I really like how he plays. I just thought after his first year that he couldn't become a good nba player and I was wrong about that.

AFBlue

11-27-2007, 09:15 AM

When he's right, he's still an above average backup center. That's not saying much but he's not absolute garbage.

Splitter is a good talent but let's not pretend that if he were on the Spurs he'd be playing more minutes than Udoka is playing. If Elson and Splitter were both on the team, I'd say that this season Elson would average more minutes. Of course, Splitter would pass him down the road (probably beginning in his second season) but Splitter is still a role player at the center spot who'd need a full year of indoctrination to produce.

How often is Elson "right"?

Doesn't he need to be "right" more often than not, when the starting Center averages 20-25MPG?

Shouldn't Elson be giving more consistent production, seeing as how this is the magical second year where players just seem to get it?

Could Splitter fill the backup role just as effectively?

Most importantly...Is Elson the "above average" Center enough of the time to justify giving him a contract extension when two potential replacements are coming in the door right behind him?

These aren't just questions for timvp.

My thoughts, if you haven't picked up on them already, are that Elson is very seldom "right" and I disagree that Elson is "above average" at any time.

Given his inconsistency and general lack of talent, I'd suggest letting him walk at the end of the season and bringing in the Splitter/Mahinmi combo to fight for regular backup minutes.

ArgSpursFan.

11-27-2007, 09:24 AM

How often is Elson "right"?

Doesn't he need to be "right" more often than not, when the starting Center averages 20-25MPG?

Shouldn't Elson be giving more consistent production, seeing as how this is the magical second year where players just seem to get it?

Could Splitter fill the backup role just as effectively?

Most importantly...Is Elson the "above average" Center enough of the time to justify giving him a contract extension when two potential replacements are coming in the door right behind him?

These aren't just questions for timvp.

My thoughts, if you haven't picked up on them already, are that Elson is very seldom "right" and I disagree that Elson is "above average" at any time.

Given his inconsistency and general lack of talent, I'd suggest letting him walk at the end of the season and bringing in the Splitter/Mahinmi combo to fight for regular backup minutes.

I don't see Mahinmi being any better tham Elson, at the most he can be just like Elson.
But Splitter has more chances to become a decent NBA PF/C though.

AFBlue

11-27-2007, 09:31 AM

I don't see Mahinmi being any better tham Elson, at the most he can be just like Elson.
But Splitter has more chances to become a decent NBA PF/C though.

Mahinmi is very raw, this is true. But, he definitely suprised me with his early season play on the big club.

Granted, he was playing garbage time minutes, but he showed good BBIQ and the fluid athleticism was VERY encouraging.

I expect Pop and co. to give Mahinmi some decent court time in the Spring, especially if the Spurs have clinched playoff berth. At that time, I think they'll make a realistic evaluation about what he can bring to the table in the near future.

timvp

11-27-2007, 12:26 PM

How often is Elson "right"? Not that often. Then again, I have a low standard for him. If he can catch the ball without fumbling it, stay out of the way and pull down a few rebounds, I'm happy.

There was no one more against the signing than me. I knew this was Elson when we got him. I'm not surprised at all. He's shown glimpses of being a little less inept than I thought so perhaps my standards are low.

Doesn't he need to be "right" more often than not, when the starting Center averages 20-25MPG?My "compliment" was he can sometimes be an above average backup center. Do you realize how horrible the average backup center in the NBA is? Heck, the average starting center in the league is pretty bad. That's not much of a compliment headed Elson's way.

Shouldn't Elson be giving more consistent production, seeing as how this is the magical second year where players just seem to get it? There was that hope.

Could Splitter fill the backup role just as effectively?Eventually? Absolutely. Off the boat? I'm not 100% sure.

Most importantly...Is Elson the "above average" Center enough of the time to justify giving him a contract extension when two potential replacements are coming in the door right behind him?I said above average BACKUP center. Big difference.

And to answer the question: no, not how he's playing right now. If he continues to play at this level he'll be on the first bus out of town after the season.

Bottomline is Elson is playing exactly how I imagined he would when the Spurs signed him. Yeah, in the grand scheme of things he sucks but it's hard for me to be too upset since I wasn't expecting more.

I'm just thankful that Oberto blossomed last year or else the Spurs would have been dead in the water and the Elson signing would have gone down as one of the worst in team history. If Oberto doesn't play well and the Spurs needed Elson for anything more than an occasional spark once every couple weeks, they'd be in deep trouble.

AFBlue

11-27-2007, 01:34 PM

All good points timvp...

Like you, I'm also very glad that Oberto has become a reliable compliment to Duncan in the frontcourt. I wish he had the ability to stay on the court for a good 30 minutes, because it would lessen the reliance on guys like Elson and Bonner, who are just one or two-trick ponies.

I also understand that the Center position is clearly the weakest in the NBA and that most teams don't have reliable starters, let alone backups. But I guess my point is that the Spurs shouldn't accept mediocrity just because it's the relative norm.

If there are other (cheaper :greedy ) options already in the fold, I think the Spurs would be foolish to continue to hope for a 31yr old F/C, whose only speciality is running, to pan out.

The Spurs might as well see what they have in Mahinmi and Splitter sooner rather than later, and pocket the $3M+ that it would take to bring back this guy.

Do you agree?

wildbill2u

11-27-2007, 01:49 PM

Isn't this the spot where someone says, "bring back Malik?"

timvp

11-27-2007, 01:55 PM

The Spurs might as well see what they have in Mahinmi and Splitter sooner rather than later, and pocket the $3M+ that it would take to bring back this guy.

Do you agree?Splitter is going to be on the Spurs next year. That's almost literally 100% likely. If they don't bring him over, he's stick in buyout hell forever.

Mahinmi, unless he bombs big time in Austin, will also be back. Even if he bombs, they'll probably still give him another year.

Perhaps Splitter will replace Elson next year. Perhaps Splitter will just take the spot of a retired Horry.

Whatever the method, Splitter is going to jump the pond next summer. I expect him to do pretty well, pretty fast. Best case scenario might be Splitter comes in place of Elson and Horry sticks it out one more year. I just hope the Spurs don't end up doing something like wasting assets in an attempt to salary dump Bonner.

:pctoss

AFBlue

11-27-2007, 02:36 PM

Splitter is going to be on the Spurs next year. That's almost literally 100% likely. If they don't bring him over, he's stick in buyout hell forever.

Mahinmi, unless he bombs big time in Austin, will also be back. Even if he bombs, they'll probably still give him another year.

Perhaps Splitter will replace Elson next year. Perhaps Splitter will just take the spot of a retired Horry.

Whatever the method, Splitter is going to jump the pond next summer. I expect him to do pretty well, pretty fast. Best case scenario might be Splitter comes in place of Elson and Horry sticks it out one more year. I just hope the Spurs don't end up doing something like wasting assets in an attempt to salary dump Bonner.

:pctoss

I figure Horry will call it quits after this year. That means the Spurs can add another frontcourt player, so let's assume it's Splitter.

The Spurs could go with either of your scenarios, or....

The Spurs could choose not to retain Elson, give Horry's minutes to Bonner and have a training camp battle for Elson's 15-20 minutes between Mahinmi and Splitter.

There would still be a spot open for one more frontcourt player. That player could be veteran insurance or another young prospect.

I realize that's putting alot of faith in some young, relatively unknown quantities...but IMO that's better than a known mediocre quantity in Elson.

BTW, I also hope that the Spurs don't give up on Bonner and use one of the prospects to pawn off his salary on another team. While he's no Robert Horry, I think he brings a couple things to the table that the Spurs FO values....outside shooting and strong work ethic.

Also keep in mind, the Spurs will be getting rid of Barry's $6M and Finley's $3M, and though they may re-sign either or both, it should be significantly discounted. Point being, the Spurs might not be so close to the lux tax threshold that they would feel pressure to get rid of a prospect along with Bonner's salary just to cut cost.

ArgSpursFan.

11-27-2007, 03:56 PM

ChumpDumper

11-27-2007, 04:01 PM

Horry's out, Elson might be out -- Splitter is in and maybe another pick or project. Done and done as far as the big men are concerned.

The swing spots will be the biggest area of need. Hopefully they pick up a young one out of the D-League sometime this season to get a head start on learning the system.

AFBlue

11-27-2007, 04:11 PM

well, next year there's gonna be planty of room in the roster.
With Finley,Barry,Horry and probably J.V out,there's gonna be probably 4 spots availables.
I hope they can sign a couple of good F.As to add to the roster.

I wouldn't be suprised to see a FA come to the Spurs next season, but I also wouldn't be suprised to see one or two of the guys you listed to stay on this team as well.

Keep in mind, while the Spurs will most likely not be near the lux tax threshold, I'm pretty sure they'll still be over the salary cap. That would mean that the Spurs could only spend about $6M of salary cap money in Summer '08, which would probably not be enough to replace the 4 slots you list above.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on the salary cap situation for next year.

Personally, I could see a scenario where Barry comes back to the Spurs on a one or two-year deal for vet min and where Vaughn declines his player option and stays with the team next year.

That would leave the Spurs to fill two slots via FA, draft, or overseas pool of talent (Splitter, Sanikidze, etc.).

AFBlue

11-27-2007, 04:15 PM

ChumpDumper

11-27-2007, 04:16 PM

Personally, I could see a scenario where Barry comes back to the Spurs on a one or two-year deal for vet min and where Vaughn declines his player option and stays with the team next year.That sounds pretty plausible, so two swing spots to fill.

AFBlue

11-27-2007, 04:27 PM

That sounds pretty plausible, so two swing spots to fill.

I wanted to say the Spurs would keep Finley too, but for many reasons I just don't feel like it'll happen.

So yeah, I think two spots.

My guess is that the Spurs would go developmental with one...be it a D-Leaguer (Williams, Bowen, Langford, etc.) or a draft pick.

The other would most likely come from FA. It's probably too early to bust out the FA list for next summer, but there are a couple that intrigue me...

Safe Pick - Ryan Gomes...Capable of playing 3 and 4, smart, and makes plays.

Risky Pick - JR Smith...Great shooter with a ton of potential.

ArgSpursFan.

11-27-2007, 04:34 PM

what about RC's adopted Sun?
I never saw him play,but I heard He's a talented young man,and would probably go undrafted next year.
I'd say there will be 5 spots available next year actually,If Elson is out too.
Maybe Barry and Finley sign a one year contract for the vet min,but we still need another wing,another PG and one more Big to add to the roster.

AFBlue

11-27-2007, 04:43 PM

what about RC's adopted Sun?
I never saw him play,but I heard He's a talented young man,and would probably go undrafted next year.

RC's adopted son is Alexis Wangmene and he's a 6'8 235lb defensive F/C. There's actually a thread with his name as the title that talks all about him.

He's a college freshman at UT. After this year he would be eligible for the draft and would probably go undrafted (unless he was taken by the Spurs) if he entered.

BUT, he's still a VERY raw prospect by all accounts, and the fact that RC is his adopted father may lead RC to actually counsel him to stay in school, get his degree, and continue to develop as a player.

He'll probably be a Spur one day, but I'm not sure it's starting next year.

I'd say there will be 5 spots available next year actually,If Elson is out too.
Maybe Barry and Finley sign a one year contract for the vet min,but we still need another wing,another PG and one more Big to add to the roster.

As I said, the wing would probably be a developmental player, the PG should be JV because he would serve as the perfect #3 guy behind Parker and Washington (if he pans out), and the Big could be either a developmental guy or veteran insurance.

Bruno

11-27-2007, 06:43 PM

espn is listing 2008 free agents. They are maybe wrong but they have some league source.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=2008FreeAgents

San Antonio Spurs

Restricted: Darius Washington

Unrestricted: Brent Barry, Francisco Elson, Michael Finley, Robert Horry, Ime Udoka (P), Jacque Vaughn (P)

Limited Salary Protection: None

So they said that :
- Vaughn second year is a player option.
- Washington has only signed a one year contract.
- Udoka second year is a player option despite it was reported that there was no option on his second year.

wildbill2u

11-27-2007, 07:07 PM

From what I've seen of Splitter, he is not as athletic as Elson. Not a big shot blocker--but then neither is Elson. Splitter Tends to stay on floor (like Duncan) and use his long arms to defend and rebound.

They have used him out on the 3pt arc in the Euro league because he can catch the ball and drive on the pick and roll. He's sneaky quick rather than fast.

But he is so much more talented than Elson in almost every aspect of the game he will make himself a spot on the team.

Mr.Bottomtooth

11-27-2007, 07:30 PM

Why do people assume that Splitter is going to come in and contribute?
What's so different about him that he won't be forced to sit at the end of the bench or go down to Austin?

AFBlue

11-27-2007, 11:21 PM

Why do people assume that Splitter is going to come in and contribute?
What's so different about him that he won't be forced to sit at the end of the bench or go down to Austin?

Opportunity...

Did Tony Parker come in and contribute right away when he came to the Spurs? I think so.

In most cases you're correct that young players usually grow into their minutes over an extended period of time. But if players are given the opportunity and capitalize on that opportunity, they can be a piece of the puzzle sooner rather than later.

That is why I'd prefer to let Elson walk. Between Mahinmi and Splitter there should be enough talent to fulfill a reserve Center role. Honestly, living up to Elson and his average production isn't exactly a daunting task...even for two young guys like Splitter or Mahinmi.

Holt's Cat

11-27-2007, 11:22 PM

Hopefully that flexibility gained by giving Scola to the Rockets comes in handy.

timvp

11-27-2007, 11:58 PM

So they said that :
- Udoka second year is a player option despite it was reported that there was no option on his second year.Hopefully that's wrong. Udoka having a player option would suck because there'd be a decent chance of him opting out. If he does good, he'd probably try to get more money. If he doesn't play, he'd probably go somewhere to get playing time.

That said, I thought I remember reports specifically being that the signing was delayed until Udoka agreed to no player option . . .

ShoogarBear

11-28-2007, 12:10 AM

what about RC's adopted Sun?
Bite your tongue.

AFBlue

11-28-2007, 09:46 AM

I wanted to say the Spurs would keep Finley too, but for many reasons I just don't feel like it'll happen.

So yeah, I think two spots.

My guess is that the Spurs would go developmental with one...be it a D-Leaguer (Williams, Bowen, Langford, etc.) or a draft pick.

The other would most likely come from FA. It's probably too early to bust out the FA list for next summer, but there are a couple that intrigue me...

Safe Pick - Ryan Gomes...Capable of playing 3 and 4, smart, and makes plays.

Risky Pick - JR Smith...Great shooter with a ton of potential.

I know it's early for the discussion, but I can't help myself. Here are a few more names of wing players that may be available next year...

Key:
Restricted (R)
Unrestricted (U)
Team Option (T)
Player Option (P)
My Top 5 (*)

Josh Childress* (R)
Tony Allen (R)
Devin Brown (U)
JR Smith* (R)
Mickael Pietrus* (U)
Stephen Graham (T)
Quinton Ross (U)
Trevor Ariza (P)
Ryan Gomes* (R)
Gerald Green* (U)
Antoine Wright (U)
Carlos Delfino (R)
CJ Miles (R)

There are several good candidates that I wouldn't mind having on the Spurs to fill the void that will most likely be left by Barry, Finley, or both.

alamo50

11-28-2007, 10:17 AM

loveforthegame

11-28-2007, 11:30 AM

I know it's early for the discussion, but I can't help myself. Here are a few more names of wing players that may be available next year...

Key:
Restricted (R)
Unrestricted (U)
Team Option (T)
Player Option (P)
My Top 5 (*)

Josh Childress* (R)
Tony Allen (R)
Devin Brown (U)
JR Smith* (R)
Mickael Pietrus* (U)
Stephen Graham (T)
Quinton Ross (U)
Trevor Ariza (P)
Ryan Gomes* (R)
Gerald Green* (U)
Antoine Wright (U)
Carlos Delfino (R)
CJ Miles (R)

There are several good candidates that I wouldn't mind having on the Spurs to fill the void that will most likely be left by Barry, Finley, or both.

I'd love the Spurs to get Pietrus but he might be out of the price range. The next option and should be affordable is Quinton Ross.

AFBlue

11-28-2007, 11:56 AM

It must be match-up problems that Elson ain´t playing lately.
I realy can´t explain it anyway otherwise.
The guy is/was full of confidence and he was given the green light to shoot from the perimeter. Now he just sits there..........

I think it's more of the fact that he's been terrible on the court when he's had his opportunities of late.

It could be attributed to the mask he's wearing, as he's stated that he sees double-vision sometimes and can't keep the sweat out of his eyes.

I think his decreased PT is also caused by external issues, such as....

Oberto has been incredibly effective during his court time and it appears that he has earned considerably more PT as long as he stays out of foul trouble.

Bonner had played sub-par in a few games recently, but has started to rebound from his struggles. For all of his defensive shortcomings, he is still a pretty effective offensive weapon....especially when guys like Tim, Tony, and Manu are there to draw the defenses to them.

I don't think he'll take Elson's minutes completely, but Elson definitely has to show improvement.

Bottom Line: He's probably better than he has played recently, but that recent play has definitely been the reason for him seeing less court time.

pad300

11-28-2007, 06:17 PM

One thing we shouldn't forget in this discussion is the draft. The Spurs tend to go BPA (best player available) (at least in their minds, Marcus Williams :pctoss :madrun :vomit: ). This might lead us to another young foreign big. I am currently impressed with Nikola Pekovic...

AFBlue

11-28-2007, 09:13 PM

I'd love the Spurs to get Pietrus but he might be out of the price range. The next option and should be affordable is Quinton Ross.

I'm a fan of Quinton Ross for his defense, but he is one of the few on that list that is not a three-point shooter...and that hurts his chances of being a Spur.

Guys like Smith, Green, and Pietrus are bigger risks because of their questionable attitudes...but they all have considerable talent and can all shoot the ball well.