Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD

[Mixability]

Anyone make a choice yet? I've weighed all the pros and cons of both, but I've decided to just get both. I need the Blu-ray for Disney/Pixar movies for the young one and I like the DVD/HD-DVD on one disc feature, since those will still work on the portable player and the player in the truck. A PS3 and HD-DVD add on for the 360 should do just fine, right? I wish one format would just fold already, but oh well.

[BeerIsGood!]

Here's a semi-recent article on the high res debate:



Blu-Ray DVD vs. HD-DVD: Who's Winning the War
08/22/2007 -art Feierman

There was news this week, in fact, it was probably the first good news from the somewhat beleagured HD-DVD camp, in quite some time.

The short of it, is that Paramount Studios (part of Viacom), announced that they would, in the future, be supporting only HD-DVD. Paramount is one of the studios that has been offering up content in both formats. Other Viacom studios are supporting both.

There is one big caveat, however, Paramount's Steven Speilberg produced movies will continue to be on both formats, and as we all know, the man is responsible for a number of huge blockbuster movies.

That now has two major studios only offering HD-DVD; Paramount, and Universal. Everyone else out there, is either producing in both formats, only in Blu-Ray, or in some cases, have not put out any hi-def content.

Paramount has been on a roll, in terms of box office success, this year, most notably with Transformers, and Shrek 3. While both of those are huge successes, those movies do cater to a younger market, and may not have as huge an impact in terms of hi-definition dvd sales as movies that appeal more to the adult crowd. My own 15 year old daughter, for example, could care less about having hi-def DVDs - to her, SD-DVD is just fine. As a result, for myself, and many families, those types of movies don't figure in significantly into a HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray purchase decision. (More significant, are movies like Lord of the Rings (expected in both formats), and the Bourne series (HD-DVD only - Universal) Speaking of Lord of the Rings, a rumor had been circulating, that when released, the Blu-Ray version would be the "extended edition" while HD-DVD would be the original (and about 40 minutes shorter, per movie) theatrical release. Whether this rumor is true, or not, I have no idea.

HD-DVD format - their biggest win so far?
Well, of course there is Universal studios exclusive (since the start), and now, Paramount, however, strangely, the biggest win to date, for HD-DVD, has to be the Nintendo Wii game machine.

No, the Wii doesn't support either format, but it is a blockbuster success, coming out of nowhere, has dramatically impacted predicted sales of Sony's Playstation. Without the Wii, Sony would probably ship twice as many (or more) Blu-Ray playing game machines, this year, then they are curently selling. I don't follow that closely, but I gather Nintendo's low price point has it selling well more than twice as many game machines as Sony, and that means the Blu-Ray folks will have probably at least one million less Blu-Ray playing devices in the US market, by year end, than they had anticipated.

Can you say ouch?

On that same subject, it is reported that PS3 owners buy less hi-def movies than people who buy dedicated hi-def players (hardly a surprise), but the sheer number of PS3's out there, guaranty significant Blu-Ray DVD sales.

Other recent Blu-Ray DVD, and HD-DVD developments include:
Blockbuster (the movie rental chain) will not stock HD-DVD in their stores, but will make them available online. That is a big win for the Blu-Ray camp.

Target stores will also only carry Blu-ray, a second, but less significant win.

Samsung joins LG with a dual format offering. Unfortunately, the current high cost of the dual format players, pretty much makes them niche products. Afterall, you can easily buy a Sony PS3 for Blu-Ray, and an entry level Toshiba HD-DVD player, and still save hundreds of dollars compared to the dual format players.

Sony PS3 - Blu-Ray's trump card
For playing Blu-ray disks in my theater and in my testing room, I use the Sony PS3, and the results are great. I was very pleased with overall performance (expecially for the low price compared to other DVD players), when I got my first PS3 shortly after they started shipping.

Even better, the PS3's easy wireless interfacing to my home's internet setup, is great. Downloading the PS3 upgrades is a snap, and now my PS3 supports 1080p/24, which, represents the way you really want to be displaying those hi-def movies. The PS3 is not perfect, of course, but, the experience with the PS3 has been excellent, as compared to my Toshiba HD-DVD player.

Where do we go from here?

I'm still of the belief that it is Sony's (Blu-ray) war to win or lose. Here's why:

So far, Blu-ray players are still significantly more expensive. You can buy an "entry-level" HD-DVD player for $249, and will have to spend about twice as much for the equivalent Blu-Ray player. That, of course helps explain the popularity of the PS3 as a movie player. Spend the $600, and get a great game machine and hi-def player combined.

The price point for the Blu-Ray players, I suspect, is largely controlled by Sony (licensing agreements, etc.), and, if I am correct, their decision to keep Blu-Ray player prices high, is hurting them. I only barely buy into the "more advanced technology" excuse for the higher prices. The huge numbers of PS3's sold, should give Sony the kind of economies of scale to bring those prices down.

The other key thing the Blu-Ray camp needs to do, is break that HD-DVD - Universal exclusivity agreement.

By Christmas, it's almost dead certain you will be able to buy an HD-DVD player for under $200, and that's a mainstream price point. If the Blu-Ray camp can get close - a $299 player, by then, I think that will be close enough to further strengthen the Blu-Ray advantage.

Conversely, if the cheapest Blu-Ray players are still $400 - or even $500, and HD-DVD is down at $199, then I expect we'll see more defections from the Blu-Ray supporting movie studios.

Blu-Ray has had the momentum. Get at least price competitive on the players (a $100 or less spread should do it), and get those Universal movies, and Blu-Ray will be in position to knock out HD-DVD once and for all.

Personally, I'm rooting for Blu-Ray, to dominate. As I see it, they have the ability to win the war. The alternative, is not an HD-DVD win, (at least not in the near term), but rather a long war that could drag on like Iraq, with no definite win in sight.

The sooner there is a winner, the sooner we'll be able to buy hi-def movie titles for under $20, and that is what will further drive sales (along with sub-$200 players).

I'll take another look at where things are, at the height of the Christmas shopping season, to see if there have been any significant shifts.

Now it's time to fire up my PS3, and the new Optoma HD81-LV 1080p projector, which I'm in the middle of reviewing. I can tell you this, the Optoma - now the brightest under $10,000 1080p projector - and PS3, on my 128" screen, produces a magnificant image. Last evening I watched Shooter in Blu-Ray, and also some short segments from the movies House of the Flying Daggers, and Night at the Museum.

Awesome - no wonder our family only goes to the movie theaters now, when it's a movie we must see immediately. One such was Bourne Ultimatum - which it turns out was a bit dissapointing - it could have benefitted by having a plot, but, on the other hand, the action was great.

A last word. If you don't yet have a large plasma display, or LCD TV, or better still, of course a projector, it's hard to imagine what a difference a hi-def player makes. While the jump in resolution alone (over SD-DVD) is easily dramatic, the real plus is picture quality. Although the jump from SD-DVD to hi-def isn't quite as great as from standard TV to HDTV, it is still a massive improvement in picture quality.

With a good front projection system (and if you go 1080p, that starts at about $3000 with a screen - just add player and audio), most people will swear that the experience is just plain superior to walking into a movie theater (yes, even the digital ones).

And, NO, you can't stop by my place to check it out. You're on your own.



http://www.projectorreviews.com/advice/HD-DVD_Blu-Ray/HD-DVD_BluRay_Update082007.php

[maxpower]

I'm also patiently waiting for some better news.

I am hoping hd-dvd wins out. All visual/aural things being equal, I don't buy the whole, more storage space on disks to give more content argument.

As it is, Hd-dvds, from what I have read, for the most part offer more content and interactive features than blu-ray equivalents.
Historically, promises of more features has been a letdown.
If both formats can give 1080p resolutions with lossless audio, that is all I care about. Additional features are appreciated but not a necessity.

[Mixability]

Also, it seems like most of the HD-DVDs being made are dual layer 25GB and the Blu-rays are single layer 30GB, so much for ALOT more space.

[Slomo]

Purely technically Blu-ray is way ahead of HD-DVD. Blu-ray still has an upgrade path ahead of it, while HD DVD is hitting it's theoretical limits.

The arguments about which looks better is dumb, because both can hold sufficient data for the movie to look good, so if there's an issue there blame the studio not the format.

The Studios are really the one deciding and I think it's wrong, because they don't worry about the consumer as much as they worry about their bottom line. I like the decision to offer movies in both formats and let the better one win it in the end, with the new Samsung and LG players that play both formats there's also not the danger that consumer would be stuck with the wrong player when it is all said and done.

I'm a fan of blu-ray because it's technically superior, but so was Betamax and we all know what happened...

[Spurminator]

I'm about five years from even considering either. I just got my first HD TV and it's a 760p... Got an up-converting DVD player, so while my movies aren't HD they're still "big-screen." Coming after a 27 inch tube, it's all I need right now.

[Phenomanul]

It's funny you would ask that... I too had been fed up with the stalemate. I originally bought a Blu-Ray Player 2 months ago.... but when Heroes Season 1 was issued only in HD-DVD the thought of having to purchase the regular DVDs frustrated me to no end.

Consequently I went down to Best Buy yesterday and bought me an XBox360 with the HD-DVD adapter. I'm deeper in the credit hole, but now I can just go in and buy either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD. No more anxiety. The side benefit is that I also ended up with a gaming console.

[Mixability]

Purely technically Blu-ray is way ahead of HD-DVD. Blu-ray still has an upgrade path ahead of it, while HD DVD is hitting it's theoretical limits.

The arguments about which looks better is dumb, because both can hold sufficient data for the movie to look good, so if there's an issue there blame the studio not the format.

The Studios are really the one deciding and I think it's wrong, because they don't worry about the consumer as much as they worry about their bottom line. I like the decision to offer movies in both formats and let the better one win it in the end, with the new Samsung and LG players that play both formats there's also not the danger that consumer would be stuck with the wrong player when it is all said and done.

I'm a fan of blu-ray because it's technically superior, but so was Betamax and we all know what happened...

I've heard a few of those dual format players skimp out on the ability to play the enhanced features of the disc. They'll play the movie fine, but you're out of luck if you want to access the bonus materials. Again, it's just a few of the players, not all of them. Research before you buy.

[Slomo]

I've heard a few of those dual format players skimp out on the ability to play the enhanced features of the disc. They'll play the movie fine, but you're out of luck if you want to access the bonus materials. Again, it's just a few of the players, not all of them. Research before you buy.Yeah, the early models had issues. I hear they fixed most of them. It has mostly to do with the programming of the extra features - something that is not entirely standardized (early DVD players had similar problems), but I also heard that most of this issues can be addressed by firmware upgrades.

As for the research before you buy advice - always do that. In the days of internet forums there's enough good impartial info around so it's really not that difficult.

[Mixability]

Yeah, the early models had issues. I hear they fixed most of them. It has mostly to do with the programming of the extra features - something that is not entirely standardized (early DVD players had similar problems), but I also heard that most of this issues can be addressed by firmware upgrades.

As for the research before you buy advice - always do that. In the days of internet forums there's enough good impartial info around so it's really not that difficult.

:tu good to hear, but since the wifey-to-be gave me the go ahead on the PS3, who am I to argue? :lol

[Wild Cobra]

Also, it seems like most of the HD-DVDs being made are dual layer 25GB and the Blu-rays are single layer 30GB, so much for ALOT more space.
Now I haven't really checked out either, but my understanding is that the blueray goes to 25GB/50GB vs. the HD DVD 15GB/30GB. Standard DVDs are 4.7GB/8.5. Modern high definition video is as much as 12 times the NTSC resolution. This means to get the same recording time on a media, you need 102GB of storage. To me, that means that the HD DVD is capable of a maximum of 1 HR 10 Min at the same compression, and Blue Ray 1 HR and 57 Min. Now if standard DVD records both interlaced fields, then double those numbers to 2 HR 20 min for HD DVD and 3 HR 54 min for Blue Ray... Blue Ray almost the same time available as NTSC of DVD!

[leemajors]

when blu-ray and/or hd-dvd burners become reasonably priced, i'll think about getting a player for my tv. until then i am perfectly content with my current setup.

[drunkendan]

Here's a semi-recent article on the high res debate:

The short of it, is that Paramount Studios (part of Viacom), announced that they would, in the future, be supporting only HD-DVD. Paramount is one of the studios that has been offering up content in both formats. Other Viacom studios are supporting both.



Regarding the article, the reason Paramount is going strictly HD-DVD (for the most part) is because they received a huge "advertising incentive" from Toshiba. There were rumors that Microsoft paid Paramount and Dreamworks $150 million combined to go strictly HD-DVD. Microsoft denied the rumors but I think the still had something to do with it.

http://www.tvpredictions.com/microsoft082907.htm

[Slomo]

...Now if standard DVD records both interlaced fields, then double those numbers to 2 HR 20 min for HD DVD and 3 HR 54 min for Blue Ray... Blue Ray almost the same time available as NTSC of DVD!What are you trying to say?

[Mixability]

So you're figuring you can't fit more on a blu-ray than a regular dvd?

[leemajors]

Samsung and Sony both have firmware updates for their Blu-ray players today, with Samsung patching the BD-P1000 and BD-P1200 to fix compatibility problems found in several movies, and Sony applying updates for the BDP-S300 to address BD-Java compatibility in movie extras (a similar problem to the one identified here). Unfortunately for owners, only the Samsung BD-P1200 has an Ethernet connection, so BD-P1000 and Sony BDP-S300 players will have to be updated via burned DVD/CDs. You can thank the Blu-ray association for not mandating an Ethernet port in your own way.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/format-wars/samsung-sony-blu+ray-players-get-firmware-update-to-fix-compatibility-issues-309431.php

[Walter Craparita]

Don't bet the farm on Sony....

[CuckingFunt]

I don't see there being one dominant format like there was with Beta/VHS, unfortunately.

As long as different studios are using different technologies, people will buy whatever is necessary to watch the films they want. People are much more accustomed to having multiple consoles/components all running at the same time today than they were in the 80's.

[Mark in Austin]

I'm a huge fan of Sony LCD televisions, and own a Vaio laptop, but I gotta say I hope they lose this format war. There's a lot of stuff customer service wise that bothers me about Sony.

[T Park]

IIRC there is a unit that plays both HD DVD and Blu Ray...

[Burn531]

I've got a PS3 so I've been looking mainly at Blu Ray titles. Ever since Paramount went to HD dvd I've been thinking about getting the add on for the 360. That way I got both formats.

Does anyone know if Fox is Blu Ray exclusive? There's tons of movies from them I'd love to have in High Def.

[Slomo]

I'm a huge fan of Sony LCD televisions, and own a Vaio laptop, but I gotta say I hope they lose this format war. There's a lot of stuff customer service wise that bothers me about Sony.Rooting for the better format to fail is dumb. I'm speaking in strict technical terms here. More storage space on Media=less compression=better picture/sound quality, that's the simplest way to put it and everybody knows it to be true. Even the people behind HD DVD do, otherwise they wouldn't now experiment with a very difficult and unreliable 3rd layer technology to try to close the gap to Blu-ray. All the other reasons that both sides are coming up with are BS and their goals are not in the best interest of the consumers.

Yes, I know transfer speed and other stuff play a part in it, but it doesn't change what I said above.


Don't bet the farm on Sony....Blu-ray is not about Sony anymore so this sort of argument is stupid because it confuses the real issue. It is true that Sony gets to gain the most from blu-ray but the same can be said for Toshiba in the case of HD DVD so unless you're a big shareholder of either companies you really shouldn't give a shit - I don't.


As long as different studios are using different technologies, people will buy whatever is necessary to watch the films they want. People are much more accustomed to having multiple consoles/components all running at the same time today than they were in the 80's.Unfortunately (fortunately?) studios are not using different technology when producing the movies, it doesn't matter one bit to them to output the thing on HD DVD or on Blu-ray.

The decision that they eventually make is the result of how much money (bribe) they've received from on side or the other and they really don't think that much about the consumer.

If the decision was purely technical we would have moved ahead from this debate a couple of years ago and would now be discussing how to make it even better/cheaper. And you don't need a bunch of engineers to tell you what is good and what's not - level the field and the consumer will make the choice for you - just leave company politics out of it.

[Slomo]

IIRC there is a unit that plays both HD DVD and Blu Ray...http://www.cikava.com/gallery/albums/Emoticons/detour.jpg

[Wild Cobra]

What are you trying to say?
Well, you don't get as much on HD-DVD as Blue-Ray. You will have less movies that can fit on one HD-DVD than Blue-Ray without extra compression that can compromise the video quality. My DVD Blackhawk Down (extended cut) has a running time of 152 minutes. The theater version is 144 minutes. With HD-DVD, you either have a movie split on to 2 disks, or you have to lose quality with extra video compression where it is not an issue on Blue-Ray. More movies will be on 2 disks that can fit on one Blue-Ray or on DVD in standard format. In the near future, when costs of automation brings the prices down, HD-DVD will cost more because of the added packaging and disks used.

How many movies does everyone like that run more than 140 minutes?

I'm one that buys TV series in DVD box sets. A typical DVD box set with six disks would still take six disks with Blue Ray in HDTV. Consider your typical TV program, I'll use "24" as an example. Each season has 24 episodes and special features. It has seven disks, with four episodes each on six disks and the special features on a seventh. The same series shot in High Definition would still only require the seven disks in Blue Ray, but nine disks in HD-DVD. It would only hold three episodes per disk instead of 4. Standard DVD is capable of holding up to five NTSC episodes of 48 minutes each. Standard TV series that cover an hour of broadcast time are usually between 44 and 46 minutes each. Blue-Ray can hold five episodes of 46 min 48 secs each in high definition, and HD-DVD can only hold three episodes of 46 min 40 secs each.

Now if I look at my first season of Stargate SG-1, there are as many as five episodes per disk. It's a five disk box set. Again, the series would fit in High definition on 5 Blue Ray disks, but it would take eight, maybe nine HD-DVD disks since at least three of the disks are almost fully utilized.

Do we really want that many more disks in our libraries?

I prefer Blue Ray.

One more thing. If I recall, Blue ray initial specs were up to 80GB per disk, but now I think I was confusing that with the PS3 Hard Drive. I was surprised to find 50GB listed in the specs. Now I did find Blue Ray disks up to 100GB!

A couple links:

What Are Blu-ray Discs? (http://www.moretv32.com/technology/8292990/detail.html)

Part of text:


The Competition

One of the common misconceptions about Blu-ray is that it is same as HD-DVD.

While both formats offer increased disc capacity and features currently unavailable on a DVD, Blu-ray excels in several important categories. A dual-layer HD-DVD carries a maximum capacity of 30GB, while a dual-layer Blue-ray Disc offers 50GB of recording space.

In addition, Blu-ray discs feature a scratch resistant coating aimed at prolonging lifespan and providing greater durability.

Both formats are capable of a similar data transfer rates of about 36 Mbps, but the Blue-ray format dramatically accelerates the transfer of audio and video, boasting an impressive 54 Mbps, in comparison to HD-DVD's 36 Mbps. That boost, coupled with a dramatically faster maximum video bit rate, offers a sharper, more detailed viewing experience.

Hitachi unveils 100 GB Blu-ray disc (http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/34221/118/)

part of text:



Hitachi is first to have developed a four-layer Blu-ray disc that is compatible with the current generation of Blu-ray recorders and playback devices. According to a report published by PC Pro in the UK, the disc works with a “slightly modified” standard optical head of Blu-ray drives. The “slight” modification apparently can be achieved through a firmware update.

PC Pro said that there was no information on when the 100 GB disc will be ready for a commercial release.

[DarkReign]

Im not impressed with either format.

My wife got me an HD-DVD player for my bday. Looks great.

Blu-Ray costs a buttload more. HDDVD is cheaper. Thats why I ended up with HDDVD.

[Wild Cobra]

So you're figuring you can't fit more on a blu-ray than a regular dvd?
No, you can fit almost six times as much on a Blu-Ray than a standard DVD format. However, the purpose of both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD is for High Definition television. HDTV uses six times the resolution as regular telivision. Therefore, Blu-Ray is comprable for time for the format it is designed to support.

Now if you put standard NTSC programs on either, the Blue Ray would hold almost 24 hours of programming, or an entire TV series. HD-DVD would hold just over 14 hours. It would take two HD-DVD disks to hold a TV series in NTSC format that has more than 18 episodes, with no special features.

Standard TV (NTSC) is a 720 by 480 pixils. 720 x 480 = 345,600 pixils. HDTV at 1080 i/p uses 1920 by 1080 for 2,073,600 pixils, exactly six times that of NTSC. Now maybe HD-DVD limits it's quality to 720p which is 1280 x 720, or 921,600 pixils for programs longer than movies using more than 140 minutes of disk space?

[DarkReign]

They have this thing..it's ultra-super-high-definition, live streaming, 3-dimensional with Super-mega-ultra digital quality sound..

It's called LIFE.


You should try it sometime :tu

Ok, I lol'd.

[Whisky Dog]

They have this thing..it's ultra-super-high-definition, live streaming, 3-dimensional with Super-mega-ultra digital quality sound..

It's called LIFE.


You should try it sometime :tu


That's great for the people who have the large bills to be sitting front row center for all the great sports games, but for the regular guy watching in HD is the next best thing.

[Mark in Austin]

Rooting for the better format to fail is dumb. I'm speaking in strict technical terms here. More storage space on Media=less compression=better picture/sound quality, that's the simplest way to put it and everybody knows it to be true. Even the people behind HD DVD do, otherwise they wouldn't now experiment with a very difficult and unreliable 3rd layer technology to try to close the gap to Blu-ray. All the other reasons that both sides are coming up with are BS and their goals are not in the best interest of the consumers.

Slomo, I always pay attention to what you write about technology issues, but in this case I have to disagree. While you're right that Blu-ray has more storage capacity, I don't think that matters as much as you say it does. We all know that the end game here is digital content downloaded from the internet and stored digitally- it's already happening to a certain extent. HD-DVD and Blu-ray are just one more stop along the way. I, and I believe most consumers who are looking for an HD player aren't necessarily looking for the format with the most capacity, we just want to watch movies in HD. (I've read some reports of some sound compression issues that HD-DVD is having though- if true that would be something that might change my mind if it can't be dealt with.) But after looking at both of them on a 46" 1080p LCD, I see no difference between the two. Since that is going to be my display for the next decade, even if Blu-ray is technically superior I'm not going to be able to tell the difference.

As far as being in the best interests of consumers, I doubt you'll find many people who think that Sony or Toshiba have ever put the consumer first. Corporations never do. If the price gap between players continues, than I think you'll see HD-DVD continue to build market share. I think most consumers will find that the incremental (but true) superiority of Blu-ray does not justify it's higher cost. We don't have to look all the way back to VHS vs Beta to see an inferior product win in the marketplace for reasons aside from pure technical performance, though. Just look at the Wii vs PS3 and XBOX360. (And if HD-DVD's interactive features continue to be superior / less of a pain to use, it helps this scenario further along.)


Blu-ray is not about Sony anymore so this sort of argument is stupid because it confuses the real issue. It is true that Sony gets to gain the most from blu-ray but the same can be said for Toshiba in the case of HD DVD so unless you're a big shareholder of either companies you really shouldn't give a shit - I don't.

Hmmm. If Sony stands to gain the most from Blu-ray winning how is it not about Sony? If it's not about Sony than why did Sony ship EVERY PS3 with Blu-ray instead of making it a more expensive model choice? Sony did everything it possibly could to pre-dispose the market towards Blu-ray. I'd say it's still about Sony. Consumers always take other things beside performance into consideration when making a big purcahse. For me, how companies behave is one of those factors. If the only thing that mattered to the consumer was pure performance, then nobody would run Windows, we'd all have rented/bought porn in the 90's on BetaMax, drive Tucker Automobiles, and still be able to buy the die-cast metal Transformer toys for our kids (or ourselves) instead of the shitty plastic ones they now sell.



If the decision was purely technical we would have moved ahead from this debate a couple of years ago and would now be discussing how to make it even better/cheaper.

Exactly. Product performance can be measured in all sorts of ways other than in purely technical metrics. For instance, the quality of customer service a company delivers can effect it's sales. Just ask Dell. Reliability and ease of use are two other examples.


And you don't need a bunch of engineers to tell you what is good and what's not - level the field and the consumer will make the choice for you - just leave company politics out of it.

What would be a level field? Both sides entering the market at the same time, with the same products available in both formats, and with the same level of game console saturation? Although that would allow the formats to compete on an equal footing and provide a clear winner in the price vs performance debate, I'm not holding my breath.


just my $.02.

-Mark

[Slomo]

Slomo, I always pay attention to what you write about technology issues, but in this case I have to disagree. While you're right that Blu-ray has more storage capacity, I don't think that matters as much as you say it does. We all know that the end game here is digital content downloaded from the internet and stored digitally- it's already happening to a certain extent. HD-DVD and Blu-ray are just one more stop along the way. I, and I believe most consumers who are looking for an HD player aren't necessarily looking for the format with the most capacity, we just want to watch movies in HD. (I've read some reports of some sound compression issues that HD-DVD is having though- if true that would be something that might change my mind if it can't be dealt with.) But after looking at both of them on a 46" 1080p LCD, I see no difference between the two. Since that is going to be my display for the next decade, even if Blu-ray is technically superior I'm not going to be able to tell the difference.

As far as being in the best interests of consumers, I doubt you'll find many people who think that Sony or Toshiba have ever put the consumer first. Corporations never do. If the price gap between players continues, than I think you'll see HD-DVD continue to build market share. I think most consumers will find that the incremental (but true) superiority of Blu-ray does not justify it's higher cost. We don't have to look all the way back to VHS vs Beta to see an inferior product win in the marketplace for reasons aside from pure technical performance, though. Just look at the Wii vs PS3 and XBOX360. (And if HD-DVD's interactive features continue to be superior / less of a pain to use, it helps this scenario further along.)



Hmmm. If Sony stands to gain the most from Blu-ray winning how is it not about Sony? If it's not about Sony than why did Sony ship EVERY PS3 with Blu-ray instead of making it a more expensive model choice? Sony did everything it possibly could to pre-dispose the market towards Blu-ray. I'd say it's still about Sony. Consumers always take other things beside performance into consideration when making a big purcahse. For me, how companies behave is one of those factors. If the only thing that mattered to the consumer was pure performance, then nobody would run Windows, we'd all have rented/bought porn in the 90's on BetaMax, drive Tucker Automobiles, and still be able to buy the die-cast metal Transformer toys for our kids (or ourselves) instead of the shitty plastic ones they now sell.



Exactly. Product performance can be measured in all sorts of ways other than in purely technical metrics. For instance, the quality of customer service a company delivers can effect it's sales. Just ask Dell. Reliability and ease of use are two other examples.



What would be a level field? Both sides entering the market at the same time, with the same products available in both formats, and with the same level of game console saturation? Although that would allow the formats to compete on an equal footing and provide a clear winner in the price vs performance debate, I'm not holding my breath.


just my $.02.

-MarkMark,

Well I'm not holding my breath either. The BS that goes with every new format is getting very old and I've been through quite a few. My problem is not with Sony, Toshiba or Philips coming up with new designs/patent and selling it to others. The problem is that the big names all play games with it and decide who can and who can't have the licence. When I'm talking about a level field I'd want to make the technology available to everyone who wants to pay for it (I'm dreaming I know). It would drive development forward a lot faster and would actually mean more money for the technoology inventor (sell more licenses). It would open the door for smaller outfits to come up with inovative designs which would make them players in the market - and that's what the bigs are really afraid of, it's all about controlling the market.


I can not root against technology because of the name that is behind it, since in my book the big names are all the same, so all I care about anymore is how good the stuff is and what can I do with it.

Which brings me back to the storage issue. When discussing storage media there are two main factors - space and transfer speed - and a plethora of others who while important only come into play after the first two - reliability, error correction, sturdiness of the media itself...

The main problem with video is the amount of data you have to process in a single frame and then repeat that 24 times (or 25 time or 30 times) for just a second of video. Just as an illustration the required bandwidth for uncompressed 1080i is 1,5Gbps, double that (3Gbps) for 1080p. Even broadcasters right now haven't figured out all the problems of just moving those signals around their facilities (specially 1080p). Anything similar in a consumer device is out of the question, so they use video/data compression technology to lower the bandwidth to a manageable level. Now when they do that they are not thinking about the best in terms of quality but in terms of the best quality that they can fit on a single DVD/Blu-ray. Blu-ray has more storage space (now and in the future upgrade path) and has a faster read/write speed which allows the authoring facility to put more=better data on it. The problems with HD DVD that you are mentioning are a direct result of that. If there were no politics behind the story everybody including Toshiba would be using Blu-ray which would clear the air and make room for the next big thing (format wars hold back development).

As for the media-less distribution of content the problem is again with the big names - studios this time. DRM doesn't work and as it is right now is even more limiting than the alternative (cassettes, CDs, DVDs...). If a solution could be found for the copyright issues we would today be looking at the ability of downloading through legal bitorrents (I think it's the best/fastest available at the moment) a DVD quality film within roughly 24 hours. That's actually not too bad, but then I think people would want to store it somewhere, archive it if you will - and we come back to storage media. And as it stands CD size Blu-rays that can hold rougly 5 DVD at a price of approx. 1$ per GB is pretty good and can only be beat by digital cassettes (roughly 0,5$ per GB).

But for the rest of your post I agree with you. The best way to improve customer support is to take away the quasi monopolistic position that some manufacturers have. Look at open source software where money is made by offering superior quality services as oposed to selling software licenses and using the profit not to improve the software but to sue the hell out of anybody who wants to improve on it.

As a side note we have been using the pro version of blu-ray (XDCAM) for 3 years now, and it is almost without competition in the pro world, because nobody else is offering anything remotely similar (HD DVD was never a factor). We are now moving toward solid state storage media - it's smaller, can be lightning fast but also costs more (at least 10 times more per GB).

[Wild Cobra]

I simply belive Blu-Ray will end up winning because it has about 67% more record time available (dual layer 50GB vs. 30GB) for the same quality, and can stream 50% faster too (54 MB/Sec vs. 36 MB/Sec).

[Burn531]

Bump.

Blu ray titles are buy 1 get 1 free at Best Buy, Target, and Fry's. Amazon has the same deal only with more movies to choose from. Fry's online had Sony films for $10 starting this past Sunday but sold out most of there stock really fast. There's still a few for 10 bucks last I checked.

[Wild Cobra]

Back to my argument, I believe it has to do with recording time. Both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are comparable in quality. Even though Beta was better than VHS for video quality, VHS won out because of record time available!

Maybe the developers of Blu-Ray kept that in mind when they developed it?

[Milo]

No, you can fit almost six times as much on a Blu-Ray than a standard DVD format. However, the purpose of both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD is for High Definition television. HDTV uses six times the resolution as regular telivision. Therefore, Blu-Ray is comprable for time for the format it is designed to support.

Now if you put standard NTSC programs on either, the Blue Ray would hold almost 24 hours of programming, or an entire TV series. HD-DVD would hold just over 14 hours. It would take two HD-DVD disks to hold a TV series in NTSC format that has more than 18 episodes, with no special features.

Standard TV (NTSC) is a 720 by 480 pixils. 720 x 480 = 345,600 pixils. HDTV at 1080 i/p uses 1920 by 1080 for 2,073,600 pixils, exactly six times that of NTSC. Now maybe HD-DVD limits it's quality to 720p which is 1280 x 720, or 921,600 pixils for programs longer than movies using more than 140 minutes of disk space?

The thing you forgot is that the compression schemes used by regular DVDs and Hi Def DVDs differ.
regular DVDs are limited to MPEG2 video compression; hidDef DVDs (HD-DVD and Blu-Ray) can use MPEG2, VC-1 or AVC (H264)
So, while Hi Def DVDs have to store 6 times more pixels per frame than DVD, they can achieve a 2 times better compression using VC-1 / AVC, compare to the older MPEG2 compression; resulting in space requirement of only 3 times more.
Meaning, a movie stored in low res, mpeg2, on a regular DVD (9 GB) needs roughly 3x9 = 27 GB to be stored in hi-def with proper video compression, all other things being equal.
And HD-DVDs are 30 GB, so that fits perfectly.

Now the comparison HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray:
while Blu-Ray has more room for improvement and potential for better video quality (more disc space) the reality is that 60% of all Blu-Ray discs released so far are pretty badly produced: simple upconversion of regular DVS, video compression in mpeg2 instead of VC-1/AVC, etc.
Besides, the technology is not as mature as HD-DVD (more imcompatiblities with some discs, firware upgrades needed) and most importantly the Blu-Ray players are much more expensive than the HD-DVD players. You can now find a Toshiba HD-DVD player for as low as $200.

The way I see it, HD-DVD could win it all based lower prices and technological maturity, even though Blu-Ray is potentially better.
About the same thing that happened with VHS vs Betamax...

[Slomo]

the reality is that 60% of all Blu-Ray discs released so far are pretty badly produced: simple upconversion of regular DVS, video compression in mpeg2 instead of VC-1/AVC, etc. True (I couldn't believe it when I saw some of the first releases), but it's a disc authoring issue not the format's fault. And judging from latest titles the issue is rapidly improving.


Besides, the technology is not as mature as HD-DVD (more imcompatiblities with some discs, firware upgrades needed)Actually Blu ray has been used in the broadcast industry in every day productions for over two years now (mostly in ENG which most critics predicted would never work). The technology is mature and very robust. The issues that you are citing have to do with the extras on the discs (Java programing) not the content itself which again can be traced back to the authoring process/regulations - and are easily resolved.


and most importantly the Blu-Ray players are much more expensive than the HD-DVD players. You can now find a Toshiba HD-DVD player for as low as $200. That was one of the big reasons behind the VHS victory and potentially the main problem for BR.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Wal-Mart on Blu-ray bandwagon
Retailer will only sell Sony's hi-def movie discs, phasing out Toshiba's HD-DVD discs in its 4,000 Wal-Mart and Sam's Club stores this year.
February 15 2008: 11:28 AM EST

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- National discount retailer Wal-Mart announced Friday that it had decided to only sell Sony's Blu-ray hi-definition movie discs, and will phase out Toshiba's competing HD-DVD formatted discs over the next several months.

Wal-Mart said that by June, its 4,000 Wal-Mart and Sam's Club stores would sell only Blu-ray discs and Blu-ray hardware players. Blu-ray and Toshiba's HD-DVD format are not compatible.

"We've listened to our customers, who are showing a clear preference toward Blu-ray products and movies with their purchases," said Gary Severson, Wal-Mart's Senior Vice President of Home Entertainment in a statement.

Wal-Mart said it would continue selling HD-DVD products, but over the next 30 days, customers will see a significant shift in emphasis to Blu-ray in both brick-and-mortar stores and online. The retailer said it will continue to sell DVDs and standard-definition hardware.

Wal-Mart is the latest movie vendor to choose Blu-ray over HD-DVD. Earlier this week, online movie rental company Netflix (NFLX) announced its support for Blu-ray, and said it would phase out HD-DVD as well. Video publishers Walt Disney (DIS, Fortune 500), Sony's Sony Pictures, News Corp.'s (NWS, Fortune 500) Twentieth Century Fox, and Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer have all endorsed Blu-ray.

In a rivalry that mirrors the Betamax-VHS dispute of the 1970s, Sony (SNE) and Toshiba have been battling each other to define the industry's hi-definition video standard. The winner will see a boost in the sale of hardware needed to play the hi-definition discs. To top of page
Netflix switches to Sony DVD format

http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/15/technology/wal-mart_blu-ray/index.htm?eref=rss_topstories

[T Park]

niiiiceeee :tu

As someone that owns a ps3 this is awesome news.

[sabar]

I hope HD-DVD wins because blu-ray is a dumb name for a format of data storage and HD-DVD is cheaper.

I wonder how much Sony is kicking-back to retailers like Walmart and Netflix?
They undoubtedly are doing it seeing as how the future of their console is on the edge of failure.

[spurscenter]

STICK

WITH

HD-DVD or HD Downloads

DO NOT SUPPORT BLU-RAY

The studios are not there for the consumer

Its the same as siding with the RIAA.


read about the 1948 paramount decree.

the studios are colluding with each other.

its really bad for the consumer,

im not knocking your PS3.

I own both Ps3 and XBOX.

I only support HD-DVD

you have no idea whats really behind this format war.

the studios want to control the DRM and the pricing.

the technology is not better , hd-dvd is a better technology with HDi alone.

Blu-ray is actually still in beta and rushed to the market to compete with HD-DVD

they are now trying to outspend Toshiba with PAYOLA.

dont reward that crap.

again, keep playing your PS3, this is not a knock at your PS3

this is about your movies and HD-DVD is the one for the consumer.

Just by the fact that HD DVD are ALL REGION free is a clear sign they are there to develop the technology.

Blu-Ray still has Region coding at $29.99 ! gimmie a break.


The studios want to run the table and your gonna have to pay more in the end to own your media and have more restrictions.


read more and you will find the real truth .

[Heath Ledger]

Your resistance is futile, hd dvd is dead in the water, Wal Mart is going to stop selling HD Dvd Players and Hd Dvd's, same with Best Buy, Circuit City.


HD DVD is officially dead in the water. Game over

[Heath Ledger]

Even Toshiba is throwing in the towel!

http://www.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idUSL1637974620080216

[ATRAIN]

Blu-ray won.

[ATRAIN]

I got a free Blue Ray player when I bought my tv so im happy.

[Wild Cobra]

I hope HD-DVD wins because blu-ray is a dumb name for a format of data storage and HD-DVD is cheaper.

I wonder how much Sony is kicking-back to retailers like Walmart and Netflix?
They undoubtedly are doing it seeing as how the future of their console is on the edge of failure.
I don't think kick-backs are the issue.

I'll bet the HD-DVD is cheaper because they take less profit, maybe a loss, and expect retailers to make less. There is really little difference in the technology. In Wal-Marts marketing view, they would take the Blu-Ray because they are forward looking rather than quarter-to-quarter, and it yields a higher profit margin.

It is said that HD-DVD disks are cheaper. Sure they are. A single layer HD-DVD is cheaper than a Blu-Ray DVD by I think $0.04 per disk. Same with the double layer formats. However... That's not the whole story...

About half the Blu-Ray releases are on single layer formats. Nearly all the HD-DVD releases are on double sided format. This is because the Blu-Ray holds enough extra data. When this occurs, Blu-Ray is cheaper! Store like Wal-Mart, Circuit City, etc. have a higher profit margin on the movie sales, which is where the real profit is at. In my house, for every DVD player I have, I have maybe 100 disks between movies and TV series box sets.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

niiiiceeee :tu

As someone that owns a ps3 this is awesome news.

Bring on the $35 BR movies, all brought to you by Sony's bought format war :tu

[Wild Cobra]

The thing you forgot is that the compression schemes used by regular DVDs and Hi Def DVDs differ.
regular DVDs are limited to MPEG2 video compression; hidDef DVDs (HD-DVD and Blu-Ray) can use MPEG2, VC-1 or AVC (H264)
So, while Hi Def DVDs have to store 6 times more pixels per frame than DVD, they can achieve a 2 times better compression using VC-1 / AVC, compare to the older MPEG2 compression; resulting in space requirement of only 3 times more.
Meaning, a movie stored in low res, mpeg2, on a regular DVD (9 GB) needs roughly 3x9 = 27 GB to be stored in hi-def with proper video compression, all other things being equal.
And HD-DVDs are 30 GB, so that fits perfectly.

Double layer HD-DVD disks are 30GB, more costly than the sinle layer 25GB Blu-Ray!

I didn't look too deep, but here's what I found. H.264 at 1080P requires 20 Mbit/sec, 25 Mbit/sec, 60 Mbit/sec, or 80 Mbit/sec for low quality to very high quality compression. I also found two rates for VC-1, at 20 Mbit/sec and 45 Mbit/sec for low to high.

Blu-Ray has a standard data rate of 54 Mbit/sec, whereas DH-DVD only has a 36 Mbit/sec standard data rate. At what qualities of compression for 1080P can Blu-Ray play vs. HD-DVD?

Blu-Ray is the clear winner here in my eyes, besides just cost per GB.

[exstatic]

Bring on the $35 BR movies, all brought to you by Sony's bought format war :tu
I ain't payin' that shit. Gonna scoop a $120 HD DVD player, and pick up movies at CD Exchange when the herd stampedes to Blu-Ray. Even the stampeding studios back catalogs on HD DVD will be available.

[resistanze]

Like I've said for the past few formats, just wait for the price of <insert format here> burners to come down!

[T Park]

Did the price of VHS tapes make them unaffordable as compared to betamax after betamax lost?

[Xolotl]

HD-DVD put up a better fight then I thought would happen....I thought when the PS3 came out it'd be over...but we've all seen how great the PS3 has sold

[AlamoSpursFan]

I was in Walmart the other day looking at DVDs I otherwise would have bought, but they weren't out on Blu-Ray yet, so I'll wait...

:lol

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Did the price of VHS tapes make them unaffordable as compared to betamax after betamax lost?

Did Sony have 6 billion in R&D costs and exclusivity money paid to studios like Fox and Disney to recoup?

Has Sony's other proprietary media (Memory sticks, UMD, etc.) proven to be more or less affordable than competition (smart media, compact flash, etc.)?

You act like now that Sony has won this they are just going to give away their product.

Hell, if it weren't for HD DVD having kick ass transfers to start out with, all you BR fans would still be getting shitty quality transfers from Sony's BR authoring folks.

[Slomo]

Did the price of VHS tapes make them unaffordable as compared to betamax after betamax lost?IIRC the price of VHS was very stable for a long time after it became clear that Betamax in the US and Video2000 in Europe were dead. JVC made billions by controling the VHS license very tightly until the patent ran out. The price of VHS tapes and devices started dropping rapidly sometimes around the introduction of S-VHS, that was soon followed by the VHS-C debacle.

That's why I laugh when I read all the comments about poor Toshiba and big bad Sony, because make no mistake they all behave the same. A VHS license was impossible to get from JVC if you weren't part of their club, regardless of financial interest. The change of heart only came when their dreams of a professional version of VHS didn't materialize (they were squarely beaten by a Betamax descendant - Betacam - which became a standard in the broadcast industry. Betacam was never licensed to anyone and yes Sony made billions...).

Read about it and you'll realize that the HD DVD club is just as exclusive as the BR one and that the main HD DVD players have actually more money to buy off studios. The reason that HD DVD is failing is because the technology behind it is old and outdated and has already reached its maximum.

As for the prototype comments I've already said that BR has been used in pro applications for 3 years now and in some of the harshest environment for such equipment (ie ENG from Iraq).

I'm not too happy about the BR - alleged - victory and hopefully the ever increasing speed of the internet (and consequently ever faster downloads) will force them to license it widely which is the only assurance for fair prices, but I would have been even less happy if HD DVD had won.

I've been active in the broadcast industry for 25 years and I can't remember a time when there wasn't a video format war going on. If I have learned anything is that whenever a format won, something new and better was already on the horizon and that the ideal solution for all times doesn't exist.

FYI BR is already getting replaced by Solid state memory in pro camcorders (and yes there are at least two different standard - one is from Sony :lol) and prediction are already out that this solid state fab is not going to last...

[TheTruth]

Is it worth the Money to buy the HD DVD hookup for the 360?

[Fillmoe]

Is it worth the Money to buy the HD DVD hookup for the 360?


why? in a few months they wont even make hd dvds anymore.....

[T Park]

Thanks slomo, I wasn't around at the time of the betamax VHS wars so I didnt know if that applied to this or not.

[jaffies]

why? in a few months they wont even make hd dvds anymore.....

not months......not days.....now.


as of this afternoon, Toshiba stopped manufacturing HD-DVD equipment.

reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/companyNewsAndPR/idUSL1627196120080216)





*edit* - not confirmed by Toshiba -

[exstatic]

not months......not days.....now.


as of this afternoon, Toshiba stopped manufacturing HD-DVD equipment.

reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/companyNewsAndPR/idUSL1627196120080216)
??? Toshiba is just one manufacturer.

[PM5K]

Toshiba is the main manufacturer of HD-DVD players, actually I don't know if anyone else makes an HD-DVD only player, the only other people that make HD-DVD players are combo drives that play both.

[Wild Cobra]

Well, I said from day one of previous threads of this nature that Blu-ray would win. I'm not always right on my predictions, but I am seldom wrong...

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Well, I said from day one of previous threads of this nature that Blu-ray would win. I'm not always right on my predictions, but I am seldom wrong...

I do believe a Cluby is in order.

[smeagol]

Well, I said from day one of previous threads of this nature that Blu-ray would win. I'm not always right on my predictions, but I am seldom wrong...
Lotto numbers for tonight . . . please?

[Wild Cobra]

Lotto numbers for tonight . . . please?
Sorry, the format war was statistically clear to me from the start, understanding electronics and communications like I do. Lotto... completely chance...

[Slydragon]

http://i26.tinypic.com/es691s.gif

[ATRAIN]

Does anyone know if blockbuster rents out Blu-ray movies? If so how much more are they to rent?

[TwAnKiEs]

Does anyone know if blockbuster rents out Blu-ray movies? If so how much more are they to rent?


They do.. they run about $5 or 1 dollar more than reg dvds.

Also, here's an update concerning Xbox owners:

Microsoft said it will stop making HD DVD players for its Xbox 360 video game system after Toshiba ceded the high-definition video format battle to Sony's

Microsoft said Saturday it would continue to provide standard warranty support for its HD DVD players. Toshiba President Atsutoshi Nishida last week estimated about 300,000 people own the Microsoft video player, sold as a separate $130 (euro88) add-on for the Xbox 360.

"HD DVD is one of the several ways we offer a high definition experience to consumers and we will continue to give consumers the choice to enjoy digital distribution of high definition movies and TV shows directly to their living room, along with playback of the DVD movies they already own," Blair Westlake, a corporate vice president of Microsoft's media and entertainment group, said in a written statement.

Microsoft was one of HD DVD's main backers, along with Intel and Japanese electronics maker NEC, and its support for the format was seen as a big win for Toshiba's format.

But support for the HD DVD waned as major movie studios -- Sony Pictures, Walt Disney, News Corp.'s Twentieth Century Fox and Warner Bros. Entertainment -- picked Blu-ray to distribute high-def DVDs. Wal-Mart Stores struck what seemed to be the final blow just over a week ago when it said it would only sell Blu-ray players and discs.

More Technology News

Microsoft said it is looking at how the HD DVD technology it has developed, such as HDi, which adds interactive features to HD DVDs, and its VC-1 video encoding technology, can be applied to other platforms.

The Redmond, Wash.-based software maker said the decision to stop selling HD DVD players won't have a material impact on its video game business.


© 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

LINK (http://www.cnbc.com/id/23326427)

[JoeChalupa]

Am I the only one who hasn't watched an HD-DVD or Blue Ray DVD? Is the quality that much better than standard DVD and does it make one enjoy a movie any more than watching it on standard DVD? I just don't get it.

[monosylab1k]

Everytime I see Blu-Ray displays at Best Buy and such, the picture is so sharp that it actually looks BAD. Anybody else feel the same way? I won't buy Blu-Ray because I think regular DVD looks alot better, honestly.

[ATRAIN]

Everytime I see Blu-Ray displays at Best Buy and such, the picture is so sharp that it actually looks BAD. Anybody else feel the same way? I won't buy Blu-Ray because I think regular DVD looks alot better, honestly.


Well I hooked up my Blu-ray player to my Sharp Aquos 42" with a HDMI cable and damn it looks bad ass. Its way better than regular dvd.

[JoeChalupa]

Well I hooked up my Blu-ray player to my Sharp Aquos 42" with a HDMI cable and damn it looks bad ass. Its way better than regular dvd.

I've compared the two and while I admit HD looks better I wouldn't say "way" better and it doesn't change the way I feel about a movie. It doesn't change the plot or the meaning, if any, of the movie.
That is also why I refuse to pay the high dollar prices at the theatre and watch it with a bunch of people who talk, don't turn off their cell phones or make stupid remarks during the movie.
I'd rather just watch it in the comfort of my own home.

[ATRAIN]

I've compared the two and while I admit HD looks better I wouldn't say "way" better and it doesn't change the way I feel about a movie. It doesn't change the plot or the meaning, if any, of the movie.
That is also why I refuse to pay the high dollar prices at the theatre and watch it with a bunch of people who talk, don't turn off their cell phones or make stupid remarks during the movie.
I'd rather just watch it in the comfort of my own home.


With my recent bad experiences from the movies lately I have to agree with you. Yeah my friend had both HD and Blue ray and I couldnt tell the difference much, they were both nice.

[Slomo]

Everytime I see Blu-Ray displays at Best Buy and such, the picture is so sharp that it actually looks BAD. Anybody else feel the same way? I won't buy Blu-Ray because I think regular DVD looks alot better, honestly.Specially when they show the special promo reels compiled by the TV manufacturers. The contrast on those is hyped up so much it actually makes it look bad.

I also often see TV sets in stores that are just setup bad. HD doesn't look as good as it could on those.

As for the BR movies it depends a lot on the authoring. Pirates of the Caribean looks damn nice on BR, so does the blue planet documentary from the BBC. There are also some free HD wmv samples you can donload from the BBC (just scenes from Japan, Africa...) and those look really good. But I also have a couple of BR discs that I can hardly tell the difference from the regular DVD. If you have a decent setup (meaning the picture is not influenced by a crapy connection beteen the player and the TV) you can probably notice big differences between regular DVDs - the same is also true for BR HD.

Technology is not a magic wand, you still to have to put effort and money into the production if you want a good result.

[traitoravery]

Does your TV have to be full 1080p to get the full effect of BR? If so I will just wait until I get a full 1080p. As of now I have 1080i. meh

[MoSpur]

How much does Blu Ray run for? A decent one

[Slomo]

Does your TV have to be full 1080p to get the full effect of BR? If so I will just wait until I get a full 1080p. As of now I have 1080i. mehWhat resolution is your screen? Is it a full HD screen (1920x1080)?

If it is BR will look pretty nice, just slightly worse than 1080p. If you have a lesser screen res, it will still look better than regular DVDs but the difference won't be that dramatic.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

If you're looking to stock up on HD-DVDs, Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/ref=amb_link_6337302_1?ie=UTF8&docId=1000195491&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=special-offers-5&pf_rd_r=0R6RR98BQFDQ1QSBF3VT&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=363474301&pf_rd_i=B000VDDESQ) has them for 50 percent off.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

And according to Gizmodo (http://gizmodo.com/360462/xbox-360-hd-dvd-officially-50-still-discontinued) , the Xbox 360 attachment drive is $50.

[Burn531]

Has anyone heard how long it will take to release some of the bigger HD movies on Blu-ray?

The prices on some of those 50% off movies are really good. To me I can't tell a difference between Blu and HD. So picking up a few HD movies for cheap right now is a good deal.