How Good Would The Spurs Have Been?

[timvp]

Imagine if they signed PJ Brown instead of Rasho Nesterovic. As you can see in this article (http://espn.go.com/nba/news/2003/0716/1581667.html), they were close to signing him. Brown is an awesome defender and has a good mid-range game. He's also 90% at the line.

The Spurs' defense would be impossible to score on if they had Brown guarding the other team's best post player.

Oh well.

Go Rasho.

:drunk

[TheWriter]

Yeah, a 35 year old center.

Good idea!

[timvp]

:flipoff

PJ >>>>>>>> Rasho

Even at 40.

[TheWriter]

Because you said so? Ok, we'll go with that.

[exstatic]

Uh, PJ is actually a better player. We did alright with one ex Miami Heat rugged defensive player. To bad his wife is from La. That turned the tables.

If Rasho had half his fire, he would average 15 and 10.

[timvp]

Instead of ruining this thread, how about trying to add something?

So would the great TheWriter rather have PJ Brown for 4 years, $34M or Rasho at 6 years, $42M.

Pick one, player.

[TheWriter]

I'd rather have the younger Rasho who is on a team that is currently 19-5 than not knowing what the Spurs would be or how well they'd be playing with Brown.

Bottomline.

I choose Rasho, now goof on me even after asking my opinion.

[exstatic]

I think we would have beaten LA if we had PJ last year.

[TheWriter]

I think we would have beaten LA if we had PJ last year.

How would we have beaten LA with PJ? Our bigmen weren't the problems. Unless PJ could of knock down the three in place of Bowen and Hedo, we still would of lost.

We lost that series because after LA put more attention on Manu, they mad eit to were they had our ourside shooters kill them. They couldn't. Because of that, because Bowen, Hedo, Horry, and even Manu (from the three) couldn't hit the three point shot, we lost. It's that simple.

[timvp]

Naive.

Everyone likes to say that the Spurs just "missed shots" and explain it that way when they lose in the playoffs. It isn't that simple.

PJ is a better defender, better on offense, better from the line, better shooter and better at pretty much everything.

But the TheWriter goes with Rasho using his ol' "how are we to know?" logic that he always uses.

:hang

[Rick Von Braun]

If I have to choose, I would pick Brad Miller. There is only ~1.7M in salary difference this year between Brad and Rasho. That would probably have meant back-to-back championships. Even at the risk of not getting Brent Barry in the FA this summer, Brad in this team would have been scary.

Parker/Beno/Wilks
Manu/Brown
Bowen/LJIII
Duncan/Malik
Miller/Horry/TMass

IL: Marks, Sato

Next year replace Horry or TMass with Scola, and the Spurs would have had a dynasty in the making (not that we don't have it now anyway).

Like whottt mentioned, the Spurs didn't go for Brad because they were trying to get Kidd at the time, and Rasho was cheap (and he was signed first). So essentially Kidd prevented us for going hard after Brad Miller http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smipctoss.gif

[mattyc]

If Rasho had half his fire, he would average 15 and 10.
Bingo. Rasho (arguably) has more natural talent than PJ Brown, but PJ Brown has much more hustle and heart on a basketball court - he isn't afraid to get his mitts dirty and thus does the right things on the court.

If we could somehow ignite the fire in Rasho's belly..... :smokin

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Sorry, I still think if you gave Rasho 5-10 touches on offense per game, he'd have all the fire in the world for you guys.

Last year with Tim out he was balling, averaging 18 and 10. Now he's a scrub who people think Marks should be playing ahead of.

Sorry, call him selfish if you want, but I think it's hard to expect anyone, especially someone with a history of drifting mentally in the past, to stay involved/focus/whatever you want to call it when their sole responsibilities on offense are to stay out of Tim's way, try to grab the Orebound if possible and kick it back out immediately, and oh - stay out of Tim's way.

[Karl Mundt]

10.3 points on 43% FG, 8.6 rebounds and 0.8 blocks in 36 minutes a game on a 2-20 team doesn't really look that impressive to me. Rasho of last year would average 11.2 points and 10 rebounds in those kind of minutes, not to mention 2.6 blocks. Even the periodically absent Rasho of this year would average 8.7 points, 9.4 rebounds and 1.9 blocks, and the Spurs are not a below .100 team.

[Slo spurs fan]

Sorry, I still think if you gave Rasho 5-10 touches on offense per game, he'd have all the fire in the world for you guys.

Last year with Tim out he was balling, averaging 18 and 10. Now he's a scrub who people think Marks should be playing ahead of.

Sorry, call him selfish if you want, but I think it's hard to expect anyone, especially someone with a history of drifting mentally in the past, to stay involved/focus/whatever you want to call it when their sole responsibilities on offense are to stay out of Tim's way, try to grab the Orebound if possible and kick it back out immediately, and oh - stay out of Tim's way.

Good point!

[TheWriter]

Naive.

Or not stupid.


Everyone likes to say that the Spurs just "missed shots" and explain it that way when they lose in the playoffs. It isn't that simple.

Spurs shooting percentage from last years playoffs:

First round- 4-0

54% Shooting - Won
42% Shooting - Won
47% Shooting - Won
58% Shooting - Won


Second round- 2-4

47% Shooting - Won
52% Shooting - Won

31% Shooting - Wo... Lost
40% Shooting - Lost
38% Shooting - Lost
30% SHooting - Lost

It is that simple.



PJ is a better defender, better on offense, better from the line, better shooter and better at pretty much everything.

So is Kobe compared to Manu. So is Lebron compared to Manu. Wouldn't it be awesome if we had those guys. We wouldn't of lost to LA last year!


But the TheWriter goes with Rasho using his ol' "how are we to know?" logic that he always uses.

Yeah, because we so know you know how things would of played out. You don't. So quit pretending you do with your "opinion."


And next time you tell another poster to shut it for their blind hatred towards a player. Look in the mirror and repeat.

[TheWriter]

But hey, what do I know. I'm only BuddyHolly/2Fast2Furious/SpursWin/X/WriterNum934/TheWriter.... :rolleyes

[timvp]

:lmao

The special ed bus has pulled up to the corner. Nice.


Or not stupid.

If you think I'm stupid, I'll take that as a compliment.


Spurs shooting percentage from last years playoffs:

First round- 4-0

54% Shooting - Won
42% Shooting - Won
47% Shooting - Won
58% Shooting - Won


Second round- 2-4

47% Shooting - Won
52% Shooting - Won

31% Shooting - Wo... Lost
40% Shooting - Lost
38% Shooting - Lost
30% SHooting - Lost

It is that simple.

Stick to road construction. If you think poor shooting can only be attributed to players missing shots without any other factors in the equation, you are indeed naive. That is a clueless point of view.


So is Kobe compared to Manu. So is Lebron compared to Manu. Wouldn't it be awesome if we had those guys. We wouldn't of lost to LA last year!

Uh yeah ... give the Spurs Kobe or LeBron last year and they win the championship.

It's not my fault you think that the fifteen best players in the NBA are on the Spurs.


Yeah, because we so know you know how things would of played out. You don't. So quit pretending you do with your "opinion."

Yes I do. It isn't that hard to think of what could have happened. You somehow have no imagination or foresight regarding basketball, but then you can go out and tell us how San Antonio can turn 281 and 1604 into a 12-lane super highway with a river running between the lanes for speed boat travel.

If you can't hang, then leave. No one is forcing you to stay here. If projecting and thinking is foriegn to you, again, I suggest that you take up math.


And next time you tell another poster to shut it for their blind hatred towards a player. Look in the mirror and repeat.

Who do I hate? Rasho?

I don't hate Rasho. Me saying another player is better doesn't mean that I hate him.

I actually think Rasho is a good guy. He's struggled some as of late and hasn't shown any fire in a few weeks, but if you looked at my grades early in the season ... he was one of the top three players.

Try again.

[TheWriter]

:lmao

The special ed bus has pulled up to the corner. Nice.

Don't forget your helmet.


Stick to road construction. If you think poor shooting can only be attributed to players missing shots without any other factors in the equation, you are indeed naive. That is a clueless point of view.

Oh, but your: "If we had PJ Brown and not Rasho we'd of won." is so much more... better? Ok, dawg, whatever you and your chin goatee want to believe.


Uh yeah ... give the Spurs Kobe or LeBron last year and they win the championship.

Oh course. With MJ on the Jazz, they'd of been 6 time Title winners. Damnit, they somehow should of signed him!


It's not my fault you think that the fifteen best players in the NBA are on the Spurs.

I don't. I just don't hate them for not being the 15 best.


Yes I do. It isn't that hard to think of what could have happened. You somehow have no imagination or foresight regarding basketball, but then you can go out and tell us how San Antonio can turn 281 and 1604 into a 12-lane super highway with a river running between the lanes for speed boat travel.

And yet your petty arugment always comes back to my interest in the city. Why? Oh, because I have a future?

Anyhow, I'm sure you have the same NBA savvy foresight as Houston Rocket fans who went: "Gee, TMac and Ming on the same team. 2005 NBA Finals here we come!!" Because it's that easy for you guys and that 8th sense.


I actually think Rasho is a good guy. He's struggled some as of late and hasn't shown any fire in a few weeks, but if you looked at my grades early in the season ... he was one of the top three players.

Try again.

So it love or just good sportsmenship to call Rasho out and say "What if we had this guy, we'd be better." Huh? Wonder why you didn't do that with Tony when he was struggleing in last years playoffs and the begining of this season. Where was the "With Kidd, how many think..." post?

Exactly.

[timvp]

:rollin

Nice job, mang. You're my hero.

Good night.





P.S.

I'd trade Parker for Nash and Rose for Al Jefferson if I could. Hell, throw in Devin Brown for Eddie Griffin.






P.P.S.

When you're the mayor one day, please do something about the traffic on 10 near the 410 exit. It is a b!tch when trying to get to Spurs games.

Thanks bro.

See you on top.

[Slo spurs fan]

Oh no MB will reply!

[Marcus Bryant]

How would we have beaten LA with PJ? Our bigmen weren't the problems. Unless PJ could of knock down the three in place of Bowen and Hedo, we still would of lost.

We lost that series because after LA put more attention on Manu, they mad eit to were they had our ourside shooters kill them. They couldn't. Because of that, because Bowen, Hedo, Horry, and even Manu (from the three) couldn't hit the three point shot, we lost. It's that simple.


Actually, the frontcourt was a significant problem for the Spurs on the offensive end. The rotation in the 2004 postseason had changed rather markedly from 2003. Rasho replaced DRob. Horry replaced Rose. Willis sat. The Spurs' frontcourt in 2004 was much less physical than in the postseason prior.

On the Laker side of things, in 2003 they probably had the weakest frontcourt out of the five times the Spurs and Lakers have faced off in the postseason in the Duncan era. Horry was starting alongside O'Neal. Who were the reserves? Madsen, Medvedenko, and Samaki Walker. Rick Fox was out with a bruised jheri curl. Contrast that with the Spurs who had Duncan and DRob starting, with Rose and Willis as the reserves. Move ahead to 2004 and now the Lakers have Karl Malone starting at the 4 and a Karl Malone who was able to give 44 minutes or more in 4 of the series' 6 games.

Now why does this matter when it comes to the Spurs' offense? The one thing that LA was able to do starting with the second half of game 2 in the 2004 series which it wasn't able to do in the 2003 series was control the defensive paint. Parker ripped up LA's defense from the start of the series to halftime of game 2. With good penetration of a defense that forces the D to collapse from the perimeter and opens up some quality looks from outside for your offense.

What LA did at halftime in game 2 was decide to focus on shutting down the paint. Karl Malone was rather significant in this regard, as his individual D on Duncan freed up Shaq to patrol the paint. The main focus of the Laker D was to prevent penetration. No penetration and the Spurs' offense stagnates.

Now, if the Spurs had a much more physical frontcourt, they could have forced the Laker D back to concerning itself with the Spurs' bigs and in particular the big playing alongside TD. In 2003 that guy was DRob or Malik. In 2004 it was Rasho or Horry. There is a difference.

Unfortunately the Spurs' frontcourt did not rise up to the physical challenge it faced in 2004. With Malone and Shaq controlling the defensive paint, that freed up the 3 Laker perimeter players to focus on the Spurs' shooters instead of concerning themselves as much about help defense in the paint.

In many respects the Laker defensive strategy in 2004 became that of the Spurs. Prevent penetration by owning the paint and then limit your opponent's offense to one tough perimeter shot per possession.

I have looked at the 3 point FG shooting percentages for the Spurs before for the 2003 and 2004 series versus the Lakers. Perhaps the best barometer was the performance of Bowen and Ginobili. Both shot significantly better from beyond the arc in 2003 than in 2004. I think that's an indication that the Spurs did face a much better perimeter defense in 2004 than in 2003 and again, that was definitely related to the improvement in the Laker interior defense in the 2004 series, which perhaps a much more physical Spurs frontcourt could have dealt with.

The only thing I'll add is that there's a reason Pop made it quite clear that he wanted Rasho to improve upon his "aggressiveness" after the 2004 series. I'd say that reason is borne out by the effect Rasho's lack of physicality had on the offensive end of things in the series.

-MB

[Marcus Bryant]

Oh no MB will reply!

Don't be scared.

[Slo spurs fan]

I'm not scared man! I'm just your hata! :lol

[whottt]

Writer is right...I don't like admitting it...it's not just that guys miss open shots with those double teams, and LA did double a man on to Duncan and especially Parker after the first two games, there's a reason Parker went into the tank...in addition to guys choking, Duncan and Parker TO'ed the ball like crazy because of those doubles.

You can say if we had more inside presence they wouldn't have been able to double...but they could've IMO, they did it when Drob was on the team. They just clog the middle and swipe at the ball. Plenty of shooters room when they do that. The only thing that might have helped us inside was better offensive rebounding...something Malik could have helped us with.

As for Rasho...Rasho wants to be here which is more than we can say for anyone else...PJ made his bed and now he can lie in it. I'll stick with Rasho until someone comes along that's better, that actually wants to be here and is willing to take less...like Rasho did. He's not that bad compared to most of the other centers in the NBA. There are only about 3 or 4 that are consistent.

[Marcus Bryant]

They didn't do it in '03.

What you call "doubles" was simply the Lakers collapsing on TD and TP when they got into the paint. A lot of times it was a Shaq-Malone sandwich. Spurs were owned in the offensive paint in that '04 series.

[Marcus Bryant]

As for the '01 and '02 series, the Lakers had better frontcourts than in '03 and the Spurs' perimeter players were much less of a threat to penetrate.

It's no coincidence that in the series with the weakest Laker frontcourt and the strongest Spurs frontcourt that the Spurs won. Outside looks are opened up by interior play. This is pretty basic stuff when it comes to bball and dare I say it exposes the bullshitters in this forum.

When on offense you have Rasho relegated to standing outside of the paint far too many times just watching (Duncan was in that spot far too many times as well) then you have the recipe that gives you 4 straight losses after torching the Laker D in the first 72 minutes of the series.

Lakers slowed the game down and dominated the defensive paint. Story of the series. Poor shooting was a byproduct of the success the Lakers had in defending the interior.

This is precisely why I express such concern about the physicality of the Spurs' frontcourt, and in particular, Rasho Nesterovic. The Spurs are still vulnerable in this regard. I think Danny Fortson's performances in the first two Spurs-Sonics games this season are a prime example. Seattle has been able to do a poor imitation of what the Lakers did to the Spurs last playoffs so far.

Also, this is why I have found myself ambivalent to the possible addition of Karl Malone to the Spurs' roster. If healthy, he could again help a team to play the kind of defense that stymied the Spurs' offense last postseason. If he's healthy, Miami could very well do it. Minnesota could do it with KG and the rest of its odd assortment of bigman misfits.

With the Spurs, you'd have him and TD working the defensive paint with Rasho and 3 trying to be a 4 Horry reduced to bit players in physical contests.

Hell, if Malone wasn't so much a title chasing whore that he was looking for the surest thing (though that didn't pan out last season) he'd go to Seattle or Phoenix. He could very well put the Suns or Sonics in a position to win against a Spurs frontcourt featuring Radosoft.

[whottt]

They didn't do it in '03.

What you call "doubles" was simply the Lakers collapsing on TD and TP when they got into the paint. A lot of times it was a Shaq-Malone sandwich. Spurs were owned in the offensive paint in that '04 series.

They weren't just collapsing on Duncan...they were doubling him without the ball to make it difficult to get him the ball, and when Parker penetrated they doubled him with, quick, usually with Hedo's man. I don't see how you could have missed this...do you think Payton and Fisher all of a sudden got faster?

They didn't do it nonstop but they did it at crucial moments of the games, and it worked every time. They again tested Bowen, just like they did in 02, only this time they quickly found out his shot didn't work.

We also didn't have anyone on the perimeter that scared them as much as Jack did. Jack tore them up in the 03 regular season, Jack was the main reason we swept them.

Just look at the amount of shots Hedo and Bowen got after the first two games of the series Vs the first two...if your own eyes are letting you down.

They were open, they were open by design.

LA picked who they wanted to beat them, Phil Jackson is a master of doing it when his back is against the wall...he is a master at guessing who the weak link is...he doesn't like to double but when he does it he does it with great effectiveness and he has used doubles on Duncan nearly every time we met them in the post season.

In 03 he couldn't. He tried to do it. Bowen smoked Kobe's ass when he tried it.

[whottt]

What happend in 03 was that we really didn't have a weak link, plus Fox(who is a master double team player, as is Horry) got injured, George was gimpy and they just weren't able to pull it off.

In 03, instead of Duncan facing a doulbe or Fox, Horry, Shaq triple team without the ball(like he got at times in 02), in the 4th quarter...he was getting Shaq 1 on 1 and that's why his play was so memorable.

You really diss Duncan when you say Karl Malone shut him down...because he didn't....in fact Duncan was shoving about 30ppg up Karl's ass when Karl wasn't getting help...even with his little chair pull. Malone had a lot of help.

Anyway, to each their own, I'm not going to change your mind.....I'll give you that LA was touger inside on their offense, but that's not Rasho's fault...and we were weaker when it came to O rebounds..that could be Rasho's fault...but more likely it was because Malik didn't get his usual minutes, Horry has no business guarding Shaq( he stretched his limit to the max to be able to guard Duncan), and also because Willis was suddenly ooooooolllllllddddd.

[BronxCowboy]

Why does every other thread eventually devolve into a discussion of why we lost to the Lakers last year? :(

[Marcus Bryant]

They weren't just collapsing on Duncan...they were doubling him without the ball to make it difficult to get him the ball, and when Parker penetrated they doubled him with, quick, usually with Hedo's man. I don't see how you could have missed this...do you think Payton and Fisher all of a sudden got faster?

I didn't miss anything. You seem to be catching glimpses of what happened, yet you still seem unable to see the big picture. The Lakers D was focused and able to exert itself in the defensive paint in 2004. They were much more able to focus on defending TD in the post and, in general, dominating the paint and relegating the Spurs to one and done on most offensive possessions.

Now if ( and I should say IF) Rasho and Horry were able to get something going inside then TD would have had greater room to operate and the Spurs' perimeter players would have had more opportunities to penetrate and attack the basket or set up their teammates spotting up outside.



What happend in 03 was that we really didn't have a weak link, plus Fox(who is a master double team player, as is Horry) got injured, George was gimpy and they just weren't able to pull it off.

There you go. Laker frontcourt was the weakest the Spurs had ever faced in 2003. Thank you.

[Marcus Bryant]

Why does every other thread eventually devolve into a discussion of why we lost to the Lakers last year? :(

Because this Spurs team had the least personnel turnover it's ever experienced over the last few offseasons and was defeated while executing the same basic offensive and defensive game plan that this season's Spurs team is using.

[Marcus Bryant]

Just look at the amount of shots Hedo and Bowen got after the first two games of the series Vs the first two...if your own eyes are letting you down.

They were open, they were open by design.

LA picked who they wanted to beat them, Phil Jackson is a master of doing it when his back is against the wall...he is a master at guessing who the weak link is...he doesn't like to double but when he does it he does it with great effectiveness and he has used doubles on Duncan nearly every time we met them in the post season.

What Jackson did was change up his game plan at halftime of Game 2. Pack in the paint on defense and run a methodical, ball control offense. Recall how the series never returned to an open court game after that?

Quantity is not quality. The Spurs had much better looks in the '03 series. Why? Again, because they weren't getting the penetration of the interior Laker D that they had before.

If you want to say the Lakers decided who they wanted to have beat them, that they wanted to expose a "weak link," it was the man playing opposite Tim Duncan in the frontcourt. Rasho and Horry failed. Pop failed to give Malik a real opportunity to try. Series over. Pop starts going off on Rasho's lack of aggression and has yet to stop. Pop found it in his heart to forgive Malik and now he's back in the rotation.

[ChumpDumper]

PJ woulda been nice -- but $8 million when he's 37?

Shinn can keep him.

I still would trade Malik for Kurt Thomas, so I'm a bit of a hypocrite -- but at least there wouldn't be both those contracts on the books.

[Solid D]

Well, I remember the threads and the bigman replacement choices to fill David's void two years ago.

As I remember it was Jason Kidd...what is the question? For bigs, Elton Brand was on the top of the list early then Jermaine O'Neal. Then on it fell off to PJ Brown, Brad Miller, Rasho Nesterovic and Michael Olowakandi.

After JO fell off the list, I was hoping the Spurs would land PJ Brown because of his toughness and ability to defend and rebound - sending Timmy to jump center.

PJ was the Spurs' choice too, but he made the family decision to stay in NO and parlayed more money with his visit to SA. That made Rasho the easy choice for POP.

[T Park]

What if what if what if.


What if Jermaine O'Neal signed here instead of resigning in Indiana.

Apparently had they not lied to him telling him they were to fire Isaih Thomas then he wouldve signed here.

No Brent Barry, but we wouldn't have a "soft" center.

[Jimcs50]

Rasho does what he is supposed to do, and that is stay out of TD's way, grab O Rebs, tip rebs back out, play D.

The Spurs have him on a short leash. Accept it.

[SequSpur]

A horses ass > Rasho.

[Jimcs50]

My dead grandmother > Sequ at golf.


:)

[SequSpur]

Damn... That's probably true though.

:lol

[ZStomp]

Imagine if they signed PJ Brown instead of Rasho Nesterovic. As you can see in this article (http://espn.go.com/nba/news/2003/0716/1581667.html), they were close to signing him. Brown is an awesome defender and has a good mid-range game. He's also 90% at the line.

The Spurs' defense would be impossible to score on if they had Brown guarding the other team's best post player.

Oh well.

Go Rasho.

:drunk

PJ signed that contract that summer the Spurs went after him.

If the Spurs signed him for that....the wouldn't have had the money they had the last two summers. So this team we have now + PJ wouldn't be.

[wildbill2u]

You know something? When some of the contributors here quit calling each other names, they can really put some thoughtful BB analysis on a thread.

Even when they have different points of view, they can make a logical case for their opinions. It's really refreshing. Wish it would happen more often.