Hedo > Barry

[Marcus Bryant]

It's time for another inequality thread.

For all of his faults, at least by this time last season Hedo Turkoglu was able to figure out the Spurs' defensive schemes and not lose out his job to Devin Brown.

I'm hoping for improvement, but at the moment things aren't looking so hot for Barry. Sure, history suggests that Barry will improve his outside stroke, but, again, Hedo had found his by this time last season.

This is not to say the Spurs should have matched Orlando's offer. But as much as people like to dump on Hedo in this forum, Barry deserves just as much, if not more, for his failure to be able to play Spurs defense.

Don't give me the excuse that Barry didn't play in a defense first system since I don't think the Kings could ever be accused of that.

The Spurs' philosophy runs counter to that of many teams in the league. If you can't play defense, you aren't going to see court time no matter your offensive rep.

Barry's made it in this league on his offensive skill. Much could be said for Hedo, yet at least he was either willing or able to figure out how to play defense in San Antonio. So this is why Barry has been beaten out by an undrafted guy from UTSA playing for a minimum/near-minimum contract and without the NBA resume.

So for now, Hedo > Barry.

[Nikos]

I don't remember Hedo doing much of anything until January after becoming a starter. The first game I remember him actually making a difference was against Indiana (when Manu was sitting out those couple of games cause of his back). This was a few games before he officially replaced Manu in the SL.

Barry before about 2-3 weeks ago was playing all around ball -- racking up assists with minimial turnovers, hitting threes, and was just productive overall.

[Marcus Bryant]

You don't remember Hedo doing much offensively. At least he understood how to D up by this time in the season, so I'm not really buying the idea that somehow the Spurs' defense is so complex that it's managed to befuddle a 9 year NBA vet. The Spurs have had plenty of vets come to San Antonio and manage to pick up on the defensive rotations without that much trouble. By this time the average NBA vet might not have mastered the tune, but he should be able to hum it.

[Nikos]

As an aside, Hedo was reasonable as a defender in Sacto. Wasn't a standout by any means, and it wasn't like Sacto stressed defense as much as the Spurs have over the past few years -- but in 2001-02, and 2002-03 Sacto was actually one of the better defensive teams in the league. In 2002-03 they were #2 in the league in defense, ahead of the Spurs slightly even.

[Solid D]

...So for now, Hedo > Barry.

That may be true, but the inequality is really with Devin Brown.

Devin basically has outplayed both Hedo and Brent, so whether Hedo or Brent is with this team...they both take a back seat to Devin in performance (see last year's playoffs).

Last night versus NO (appropriate initials), Barry got more minutes than Devin and he contributed more to the game for the Spurs than Devin did, but all-in-all, FG%, 3-PT%, FT% and defensive toughness, Devin has fit the Spurs' scheme and role the best. Devin's been the best value of them all.

Hedo - 6 years and $39M
Brent - 4 years and $20.7M
Devin - 1 year and $0.7M

[T Park]

You mean a

16 point a game 6'10 small forward who rebounds and defends well, is good?


Better than a no defending 6'6 no shot making guard?



Thats a leap there Marcus.

[Jimcs50]

We should have signed Sura instead.
http://msn.foxsports.com/fe/img/NBA/Headshots/3019.jpg

Last year he was 1 rebound away from having three straight triple doubles, for God's sake.

He is healthy now and he had a great game in Houston last night in his first game back. He is tall enough to play the 2 guard, so he would have been the better pickup, IMO.

[ChumpDumper]

Sura isn't the answer if you want a shooter, but Houston looks much better with him at the point -- the record shows it. As he's a poor man's Manu with better PG skills, he wasn't really needed here.

[Spurminator]

Hedo is better at being Hedo than Barry is at being Hedo.

I don't know if it's coming from the coaching staff or from Barry's unfamiliarity with the offense, but he's becoming a one-dimensional spot shooter, and that's not his game. We need him moving and creating just as much as we need his 3-point shot to fall.

[SequSpur]

Exactly Spurm. A Popaplaya.

[ChumpDumper]

I didn't see last nights game yet, but Barry hasn't been doing much shooting at all, spot up or otherwise. Shooters shoot, and when he's not it takes away from the rest of his game and the Spurs' offense.

[Jimcs50]

I didn't see last nights game yet, but Barry hasn't been doing much shooting at all, spot up or otherwise. Shooters shoot, and when he's not it takes away from the rest of his game and the Spurs' offense.


He seems to be reluctant to shoot, always passing the ball. Last night he got the ball late in the shot clock and had to jack 2 shots up from 30 ft. Pop needs to tell him to shoot and not worry about missing.

[Spurminator]

Admittedly, all I have to go by from last night is the box score... but Barry took 4 shots and they were all 3-pointers.

[Jimcs50]

Admittedly, all I have to go by from last night is the box score... but Barry took 4 shots and they were all 3-pointers.


well, as I said, he passed the ball twice when he had the shot...and 2 of his misses were not his fault.

[Solid D]

Barry's first shot of the game was a three. He took it with confidence and he drilled it. It was definitely something to build on.

[boutons]

"he drilled it"

yep, that was great. His later airball didn't exactly help his mo.

[smeagol]

Pop needs to tell him to shoot and not worry about missing.
Agreed. Furthermore, Pop needs to give Barry more minutes and not force him into being a "defensive machine". D is not Barry's strength.

[Solid D]

"he drilled it"

yep, that was great. His later airball didn't exactly help his mo.

Once again, boutons, Barry's airball was on a 29-30 foot shot with the shot clock expiring after he gathered in a tipped-away pass from Manu. Was there another airball you were remembering? I certainly don't remember another one.

[violentkitten]

tpark > mb oh look i can do inequalities too

[MannyIsGod]

I'm not even ready to jump on the comparison bandwagon as of yet.

It's hard for Barry to get into a rythmn with any unit out there because he has no consistant spot in the rotation. Hedo at every point last year did have a defined spot whether it was with the starters or 2nd unit.

I can't blame pop for sitting Barry because of the incredible play of Udrih and Brown. Barry was supposed to come in and be a backup point because we weren't sure of the quality of Udrih. Had we known the quality of a pg we were getting in the draft, it's quite possible we would have looked in another direction with that money.

Barry can shoot. Barry also has the ability to play defense that is good enough for the Spurs because that is mainly reliant on effort and I have no doubt that Barry is out there busting his ass. Let's be honest here, Udrih has not exactly been a defensive star either.

Barry is simply the unfortunate (or maybe it's fortunate to have this problem?) casulty of great play by Brown and Udrih. I'd rather have him down on the bench over Hedo simply because I have more faith in Barry's proffessionalism and having the ability to step in at any given time or situation and make a differnce not only with his shot but with his passing and offensive savy.

Barry could simply be the next Steve Kerr in waiting.

[boutons]

"Barry was supposed to come in and be a backup point"

... if needed. Wasn't his primary role SG?

[boutons]

SD, that's the only one I saw. I wasn't sure what the immediatly preceding circumstances were. If he had to hurry and was not set, no big deal. Then again, a short-clock shot is "clutch", so hitting the rim would have been encouraging. :)

[spursfaninla]

SD, that's the only one I saw. I wasn't sure what the immediatly preceding circumstances were. If he had to hurry and was not set, no big deal. Then again, a short-clock shot is "clutch", so hitting the rim would have been encouraging. :)


If Barry got the ball with only 1 or 2 seconds on the clock, and he was in a bad position (30 ft out), then its the fault of the passer, not his.


But in general this take is fair.

In addition, Barry is considered a combo guard who would get minutes primarily at the 2 but some at the 3. Some here didn't have much faith in Beno (why would we, with no proof he would blow up like he has), and figured Barry would get serious backup 1 minutes.

I believe Barry did play serious 1 minutes with Seattle last year...

[pjjrfan]

I'll stick with Barry for a while longer, thank you. I like that he is a competitor and is not afraid, things aren't going good, but the guy is standing tall as best he can. Hedo always looked scared, and one screw away from losing it. I just knew in game one against the Lakers when Hedo got a pass with a wide open lane to the basket and he double dribbled that this guy was going south on my Spurs and he did.

[whottt]

If I may weigh in on this subject...

In terms of all around talent Hedo>Barry.

Hedo has serious game. What doesn't Hedo have the skill to do? He's a 6'10 guy with guards skills...

In terms of sheer talent Hedo is > than a lot of guys in the NBA. But he's got less passion to use his talent and win than Rasho does.

There is one major difference between them...Hedo was not that worried about winning a title.

Barry came here to win a title, Barry came here to take big shots. IMO Barry is the superior shooter and offensive player.

As for you guys saying that Barry is afraid to shoot...

Barry is not a ball hog, he doesn't try to force shots up...he takes excellent shots and he makes excellent passes.

He is used to playing on guard oriented teams where one guy dominated the ball...he is not used to being encouraged to shoot...what you guys see as a lack of desire to shoot, I see as what Barry's game has evolved into....


And Spurm is right, he is being used almost exlclusively as a spot up shooter and this is a mistake IMO, he's got the best midrange J on the team...

I mean there's a reason this guy shoots 50% every couple of years.

I just want Barry out of this funk by the time we get to the playoffs, I don't care what he does in the regular season any more than I did Hedo.

On this team, this team with Tim Duncan, I am going to judge him by what he does in the playoffs...just like Hedo, and Smitty, etc.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Come on Marcus, at this this point last year we were coddling Hedo, starting him and giving him 10 plays a night to get his confidence up.

I'm pretty sure if you gave BB more than 2 minutes a night to get some run in with his teammates, he could figure it out.

[manustarting2gd]

who caaaaes!!!! Hedo was a chump! Period!

[taruky]

He he, Hedo was getting 10 plays a night? A non-pure shooter was relegated to standing outside the arc shooting threes. That wasn't his game (contrary to what you seem to think Spurminator), believe me, and when the law of averages brought him back to his 37-40% 3-pt range, he fell apart. I have never denied he's soft mentally, but the extent of his "coddling" was starting him, not going out of the way to feed him the ball. Those shots he was getting midseason were because he was knocking them down. This season he's able to mix it up more and for that reason he's been reasoably successful. When he fixes his annual stretch of shooting mechanics issues, his game will really take off. I do agree that Barry's apparent role as 3-point specialist is hurting his game as well. I'm not blaming the Spurs for Hedo or Barryr's problems, I mean not too many other players will touch the rock much when you have creators like Ginobilli and Parker. It's understandable. But by the same token it's unreasonable to suddenly say these players "suck". I think Hedo has proven otherwise this season. He may not play near his potential, but he's certainly been good.

[MannyIsGod]

somehow I knew this fucker would come out in this thread.

[taruky]

Mannyisprick, how are you? Missed you MoFo. How's that barbed wire injury you got crossing the border? Find a free clinic to get it stitched up?

[pjjrfan]

I like Whott's analysis of Hedo and Barry. But I still like Barry better, there is no denying Hedo's talents, which last year was my hope that Hedo would become the monster he can be with the Spurs it never happened. Hedo gets the shakes and in the NBA its the kiss of death. Barry, IMO, doesn't and won't come playoff time. I think in tonights game a lot of what Whotts pointed out about Barry came to light. The guy is a leader and a deadly shooter from anywhere on the court but especially inside the 3 pt line. He made some heady plays and took over on the floor. And the guys responded, I never saw Hedo do this on this team anyway. I still have high hopes for Barry come playoff time.

[MannyIsGod]

Mannyisprick, how are you? Missed you MoFo. How's that barbed wire injury you got crossing the border? Find a free clinic to get it stitched up?

:lol