Panathinaikos Ponderings ....

[timvp]

-Ginobili looks really good. He's usually a player who starts off slowly. His shot looks to be on and he's moving well. He even threw down a better dunk than I saw all of last year. Very encouraging signs from him.

-Duncan, Bowen, Oberto and Finley all look to be in good shape. All were moving quite well. No noticeably slowing down from any of them.

-Barry is playing how Spurs fans have always wanted him to play. He's just letting it fly. He's shooting without a hint of hesitation. He's passing using his natural instincts. He's playing a lot looser than I've ever seen him. Hopefully this continues into the season but these first two games he's looking like he's just letting Brent Barry play like Brent Barry.

-Elson looked more comfortable. He actually knew where to be on the court. There's no reason not to expect a big improvement out of him this season. His awareness was impressive.

-Bonner looks to be in much better shape. He's jumping a lot higher than he did last year. He can actually get rebounds above the rim and finish at the basket. It's looking like he'll be a lot less reliant on his three-point shot this season.

-Udoka is going to be a nice piece. His defense is already very good. He knows where to be defensively and moves his feet very well. He's an old school Elliott/Elie type of defender, which will be nice to pair with Bowen when needed. Offensively, he still has a lot of work to do. He didn't know his spots that well and he was taking too many shots. He needs to figure out his role offensively ... which will come.

-Washington was the best of the training camp invitees. He's in much better shape than the last time I saw him. He's really fast and can really get up to the rim. Defensively, he has tools to be a very nice defender. He's a bit of a ball hog and doesn't have very much playmaking ability ... but he's still better than Beno.

-Marcus Williams likes shooting. Too bad he's not good at it. He hit a lucky jumper at a shot clock buzzer that was ugly. He's really uncoordinated on his layups and missed quite a few. He rebounds pretty well but his ballhandling is a extremely suspect. Overall, he pretty much played how he's played over the last couple months.

-Lang, Lever and Langford aren't really NBA players. They try hard and they seem like good guys to have at camp, but it's only a matter of time before they are waived. Wouldn't mind all three ending up on the Toros.

-Ian Mahinmi is looking about as good as can be expected. He had a couple of ferocious blocks (I can't believe the box score only credited him with one block ... he had at least three). I'm very excited from what I saw. He's not going to be a great player but he's athletic, strong and fearless ... three traits you want in a young bigman prospect. He even knocked down a 15-footer that didn't look too horrible. Mahinmi still has a long ways to go but I'm more excited about him than I was coming into training camp. His problem with regard to fouling too much seems to have been cured by NBA refs letting more contact go then in Europe or summer league.

-The Spurs crowd, even considering it's a preseason crowd, was pretty pathetic. I've seen more fans at a preseason WNBA game. The arena was about 40% of capacity at most.

-Good to be back in the saddle. :smokin

[Kori Ellis]

Ginobili - Yelled at people more than I have ever seen him yell. He went off on Washington like crazy for letting people go middle, and yelled at Elson twice for missing rotations :lol

Bonner - Looks in good shape.

Washington - I liked him until I realized that he's 5'10 or so :lol

Mahinmi - I wish I would have seen him play for 20 minutes.

[Kori Ellis]

Udoka - Someone needs to tell him to get some arc in that shot. It was flat as a pancake.

[T Park]

Ian Mahinmi is looking about as good as can be expected. He had a couple of ferocious blocks (I can't believe the box score only credited him with one block ... he had at least three). I'm very excited from what I saw. He's not going to be a great player but he's athletic, strong and fearless ... three traits you want in a young bigman prospect. He even knocked down a 15-footer that didn't look too horrible. Mahinmi still has a long ways to go but I'm more excited about him than I was coming into training camp. His problem with regard to fouling too much seems to have been cured by NBA refs letting more contact go then in Europe or summer league.

Possible could be a 8 and 8 10 and 10 guy?

[T Park]

-Barry is playing how Spurs fans have always wanted him to play. He's just letting it fly. He's shooting without a hint of hesitation. He's passing using his natural instincts. He's playing a lot looser than I've ever seen him. Hopefully this continues into the season but these first two games he's looking like he's just letting Brent Barry play like Brent Barry.

-Elson looked more comfortable. He actually knew where to be on the court. There's no reason not to expect a big improvement out of him this season. His awareness was impressive.


If these two things carry on in the regular season, the Spurs could have a shot at winning the division.

[E20]

They played an European team, so of course most of the players are going to look good against European talent. Manu was a balla in Europe playing against that sort of competition. Tim Duncan would man handle and destroy anybody in Europe. So, I can't really look at this to serve as any indication on anything.

[timvp]

They played an European team.

You didn't need an an.

[timvp]

Possible could be a 8 and 8 10 and 10 guy?Down the line perhaps but that's a couple years away.

[E20]

You need 'an' after a word with a vowel as it's starting letter. However, it's still gramatically correct for such words as european not to have 'an' and it's okay to have 'an' for words such as hour. Whatever......lmao

[Hemotivo]

Ginobili - Yelled at people more than I have ever seen him yell. He went off on Washington like crazy for letting people go middle, and yelled at Elson twice for missing rotations :lol

Last season I remember he yelled to Elson a lot

[Kori Ellis]

Last season I remember he yelled to Elson a lot
Yeah, everyone did. :lol

[Hemotivo]

:lol

[whottt]

Without seeing much of the improved Mahinmi yet...

I'm going to continue to say that's he's going to be a very good player. He's got work ethic(he does what the Spurs ask him to do), he hustles, and he's got tremendous athleticism...

He's also got one of the most skilled bigmen to ever play the game to help him develop his skills...and he's got a young countryman, who's developed in a similar manner to push him and encourage him to do it...


No...Ian's going to be a successful player IMO, it'll be next to impossible for him to fail, as long as he stays healthy. He wants to be good, he's willing to work to become better...and he's got the talent. That's what it takes...


He's a PF version of Tony.

[timvp]

They played an European team, so of course most of the players are going to look good against European talent. Manu was a balla in Europe playing against that sort of competition. Tim Duncan would man handle and destroy anybody in Europe. So, I can't really look at this to serve as any indication on anything.I agree that this Euro team was overmatched but they played harder than other teams play in preseason ... and anyways, most of my observations didn't have anything to do with the opponent.

[Barbarian]

-Bonner looks to be in much better shape. He's jumping a lot higher than he did last year. He can actually get rebounds above the rim and finish at the basket. It's looking like he'll be a lot less reliant on his three-point shot this season.


I know alot of people around here rag on Bonner(especially after the contract) but I thought he played pretty good until his injury. I expect him to have a pretty good season.

Thanks for the analysis Timvp. Solid.

[E20]

I agree that this Euro team was overmatched but they played harder than other teams play in preseason ... and anyways, most of my observations didn't have anything to do with the opponent.
Nevermind. :smokin

[T Park]

Bonner before his knee injury, was the best big on the Spurs.

Better than Oberto.

Miles better than the layup dutchman.


Bonner could once again take that title over again.

Bonner could this season live up to the "Malik with a jumper" comparison alot of us made last year.

[whottt]

Might turn out that the bigman the Spurs wanted to spend this year breaking into the NBA was Ian...not Scola...another reason they made that trade.

[T Park]

Down the line perhaps but that's a couple years away.

No question.

His game sounds like a smarter Samuel Dalembert.

[timvp]

Without seeing much of the improved Mahinmi yet...

I'm going to continue to say that's he's going to be a very good player. He's got work ethic(he does what the Spurs ask him to do), he hustles, and he's got tremendous athleticism...

He's also got one of the most skilled bigmen to ever play the game to help him develop his skills...and he's got a young countryman, who's developed in a similar manner to push him and encourage him to do it...


No...Ian's going to be a successful player IMO, it'll be next to impossible for him to fail, as long as he stays healthy. He wants to be good, he's willing to work to become better...and he's got the talent. That's what it takes...The thing I've been most impressed with in his first two games is the fact that he isn't scared. He plays like he belongs. That's usually half the battle with a young big.

Add to that very good athleticism, good timing for shot blocks and good strength and the kid has a shot. I'm not sure he'll put up that big of stats on the DLeague level just because he's raw and needs good players around him ... but I've seen enough to tell me he's worthy of being a long-term project.

[whottt]

Hey...how tall is Ian now? Did you guys notice?

[T Park]

Sounds like Presti's last draft pick is a winner. :depressed

[Kori Ellis]

Hey...how tall is Ian now? Did you guys notice?
My guess is that he is 6'11 with shoes on. I'll pay more attention next time and compare him to someone else to get an idea.

[Barbarian]

-The Spurs crowd, even considering it's a preseason crowd, was pretty pathetic. I've seen more fans at a preseason WNBA game. The arena was about 40% of capacity at most.

A couple years back the Spurs played the Rockets in a preseason game here in Laredo(its in tx for those that dont live around here) and it was just awesome. It was supposed to be a Rockets home game but around here its around 98% spurs fan base. It was a sell out and the crowd reacted like it was freakin playoff game. I think if they tried this a bit more, as in preseason games in south tx cities, it would get a big response. just my two cents.

[whottt]

All I know is that in every video of extrended PT I've seen of Ian there are two things that are apparent...

#1. He can jump out of the gym.
#2. Without fail, he's always playing harder than anyone else.

He throws his body around like he's a 8 year vet on his last chance to make it into the NBA...

I mean these videos I have seen....some of those players he was playing with were complete scrubs that had no business being on a basketball court...they have nothing to offer but hustle, yet Ian's the guy running around like he's afraid he doesn't belong on a basketball court.


Ian's a credit to the French...

[E20]

Says 6-11 on NBA.com. How does he stand next to TD(6-11) or Horry(6-10)?

[timvp]

Diamantidis is hyped up by Euro league followers but the guy looks like nothing against NBA players. I've seen him called the Greek Ron Artest ... he looks more like the Greek David Wood. He doesn't translate to the NBA game at all.

[whottt]

My guess is that he is 6'11 with shoes on. I'll pay more attention next time and compare him to someone else to get an idea.



Damn...I guess his growth spurt ended. I was hoping for 7'2.

[Indazone]

The number of turnovers that Pana had is indicative of players not being used to the NBA rules. When they played the Rockets they got 5 technicals. 2 for the coach yelling and 3 I think for illegal defense. The couldn't even figure out how to set up the defense and not get called for zone. I think that with some time to familiarize themselves with the NBA game, they could have done better. They set moving screens and fouled a lot because hand checking is allowed in FIBA. They had a ton of turnovers in both games. A lot of those were lane violations and defensive 3 seconds. They lost some passes too but I attribute that to the speed of the NBA which is simply a timing issue on passing the ball.

[whottt]

Diamantidis is hyped up by Euro league followers but the guy looks like nothing against NBA players. I've seen him called the Greek Ron Artest ... he looks more like the Greek David Wood. He doesn't translate to the NBA game at all.


Supposedly that's why he won't come to the NBA...he knows he doesn't have the game to translate. Way too slow.

But he's kind of a freak though...he was in the top 5 in blocked shots one year....

[Kori Ellis]

The number of turnovers that Pana had is indicative of players not being used to the NBA rules. When they played the Rockets they got 5 technicals. 2 for the coach yelling and 3 I think for illegal defense. The couldn't even figure out how to set up the defense and not get called for zone. I think that with some time to familiarize themselves with the NBA game, they could have done better. They set moving screens and fouled a lot because hand checking is allowed in FIBA. They had a ton of turnovers in both games. A lot of those were lane violations and defensive 3 seconds. They lost some passes too but I attribute that to the speed of the NBA which is simply a timing issue on passing the ball.

Tonight they had a lot of turnovers on traveling. And even palming. They pretty much had every type of turnover possible.

Regarding moving screens, every NBA team is getting called for moving screens in the preseason a lot. It's because it's one of the referees points of emphasis this year.

[T Park]

Regarding moving screens, every NBA team is getting called for moving screens in the preseason a lot. It's because it's one of the referees points of emphasis this year

Wich will get called the same as the old days again in February.

[timvp]

Oh a nice wrinkle Pop used was to put Udoka on the primary ballhandler and have him pressure full court. I can already see that coming into play against Nash at some point this season. Pop really didn't want to lose this game and to help break the game open, he used Udoka to disrupt their whole flow.

Udoka is going to be a such a nice fit if he can figure out the offensive side. Bowen's perfect shot selection is more noticeable when Udoka forces shots while playing in the same role in the offense.

[whottt]

-

-Barry is playing how Spurs fans have always wanted him to play. He's just letting it fly. He's shooting without a hint of hesitation. He's passing using his natural instincts. He's playing a lot looser than I've ever seen him. Hopefully this continues into the season but these first two games he's looking like he's just letting Brent Barry play like Brent Barry.





Think that has anything to do with the PG situation?


Man...Barry's only been here for 4 years now, the difference in his game when he is getting minutes running the offense or just sitting there waiting to take a 3...is astronomical, and has been obvious to me since the first slump he had on this team.

When he's just standing around waiting to shoot a three...he's not comfortable.

However I still trust an uncomfortable Barry's shot more than just about any other guy on the team.


It's obvious that he likes playing the point...his best seasons came as a combo guard...not a spot up shooter.


And on top of that...he's the best freaking passer on the team.

[timvp]

Think that has anything to do with the PG situation?


Man...Barry's only been here for 4 years now, the difference in his game when he is getting minutes running the offense or just sitting there waiting to take a 3...is astronomical, and has been obvious to me since the first slump he had on this team.

When he's just standing around waiting to shoot a three...he's not comfortable.

However I still trust an uncomfortable Barry's shot more than just about any other guy on the team.He hasn't handled the ball at all in either of the first two games. I can't even think of one possession that Barry has been the main ballhandler ... or even one of the main ballhandlers.

He's just making his decisions much faster and playing free. He's playing like he doesn't care if he makes a mistake, which is how he plays best. When he's just playing loose and utilizing his natural skill, he seriously might be the best shooter in the league.

He gets in trouble when he thinks too much.

[E20]

I wouldn't mind seeing a back up unit of:
PG: Barry/Manu
SG: Manu/Barry
SF: Ime
PF: Horry
C: Elson

A couple of times during the early parts of the season.

[T Park]

When he's just playing loose and utilizing his natural skill, he seriously might be the best shooter in the league.

4th quarter game 3 vs Cleveland was good evidence of that.

[timvp]

Manu has been able to handle the point position pretty well. It's best when he's in with Udoka because then Udoka can guard the point and Manu can guard a wing. Manu getting point guard run is nice because when Jacque Vaughn becomes a liability on offense, it'd be nice to have another option to turn to rather than Beno.

[whottt]

He hasn't handled the ball at all in either of the first two games. I can't even think of one possession that Barry has been the main ballhandler ... or even one of the main ballhandlers.

He's just making his decisions much faster and playing free. He's playing like he doesn't care if he makes a mistake, which is how he plays best. When he's just playing loose and utilizing his natural skill, he seriously might be the best shooter in the league.

He gets in trouble when he thinks too much.


And you've always said that...according to you Barry hasn't run the point except for the last two games of the 05 finals and I disagree with that....there are times when he runs it...for a little while every season he's done it...and he's played well whe he's done it.

And according to the paper....Manu says he and Barry are the ones picking up the slack at the point.


His first year here he started off hot, he was getting minutes at the back up point, and then Pop started going with Beno and Barry went into a slump...and it's been similar every season since.

[T Park]

His first year here he started off hot, he was getting minusted at the back up point, and then Pop started going with Beno and Barry went into a slump...and it's been similar every season since.

WTF

beno had the backup spot from day friggen 1.

[timvp]

And you've always said that...according to you Barry hasn't run the point except for the last two games of the 05 finals and I disagree with that....there are times when he runs it...for a little while every season he's done it...and he's played well whe he's done it.

And according to the paper....Manu says he and Barry are the ones picking up the slack at the point. Uh yeah, I'd tell you if Barry was bringing the ball up ... but he wasn't.



His first year here he started off hot, he was getting minutes at the back up point, and then Pop started going with Beno and Barry went into a slumpFalse.

[T Park]

I know Beno was getting the back up minutes from day 1.

thats a fact and no debating it.

[E20]

In 2004-2005 Barry played 0 minutes as the PG as per 82games.com.


Position Min NetPts Off Def Net48 W L Win%
PG 0% -8 69.8 104.6 -34.9 0 2 0%

[timvp]

In 2004-2005 Barry played 0 minutes as the PG as per 82games.com.


Position Min NetPts Off Def Net48 W L Win%
PG 0% -8 69.8 104.6 -34.9 0 2 0%
SG 41% +265 97.2 89.5 7.7 46 30 60%
SF 1% - 22 79.5 95.3 -15.9 5 11 31%
PF
C

:king

Don't worry, he'll figure out a way to argue this. He always does.

[whottt]

Uh yeah, I'd tell you if Barry was bringing the ball up ... but he wasn't.


We've argued over it for years now....

I don't know where the disconnect is....maybe it's if there's another PG on the court you say he isn't running the point...or maybe you look at entirerly based on how much he's brining the ball up...

Well, #1, some games he does bring the ball up, a few times, and others, he doesn't.

#2. Sometimes he calls the plays, sets them up and creates them...and we have argued over this for years now....

It's so obvious that he plays better when he gets to do that sort of thing, than the games where he just stands there and waits for the ball...


False.

Not false...the Spurs started off that season running like mofos and Barry was the guy keying most of the runs...

[whottt]

:king

Don't worry, he'll figure out a way to argue this. He always does.



I'm not going to argue it...I just know there are times he's more involved...not just that he involves himself more, but that the Spurs involve him more...and he plays better when he gets to do that. And it's not just him...it's the Spurs.

When he just stands around and waits for the 3...he sucks.

[E20]

I'm not going to argue it...I just know there are times he's more involved...not just that he involves himself more, but that the Spurs involve him more...and he plays better when he gets to do that. And it's not just him...it's the Spurs.

When he just stands around and waits for the 3...he sucks.
I think I get what your saying. Their have been glimpses of Barry heading the offense and doing PG 'things' while logged in as SG. Usually Barry finds someone open with a sweet pass or creates something for somebody and I guess it serves as some confidence for his shot because it makes his defender think twice: Is he gonna shoot it or put it on the floor/pass it, leading to a better look at a 3-ball.

[timvp]

We've argued over it for years now....

I don't know where the disconnect is....maybe it's if there's another PG on the court you say he isn't running the point...or maybe you look at entirerly based on how much he's brining the ball up...

Well, #1, some games he does bring the ball up, a few times, and others, he doesn't.

#2. Sometimes he calls the plays, sets them up and creates them...and we have argued over this for years now....

It's so obvious that he plays better when he gets to do that sort of thing, than the games where he just stands there and waits for the ball...The disconnect is that you try to change reality to fit into your past opinions on the matter. If Barry hits a few shots, you'll say it's because Pop was using him like Stockton. If Barry misses a few shots, you'll say it's because Pop turned him into a spot up shooter.

Same shitck.


Not false...the Spurs started off that season running like mofos and Barry was the guy keying most of the runs...So you are already backing off the take that Barry replaced Beno as point guard?

[timvp]

Back on the topic, I wouldn't mind Mahinmi getting some real playing time early in the season. I'm still not convinced that he couldn't push Elson for minutes.

[whottt]

The disconnect is that you try to change reality to fit into your past opinions on the matter. If Barry hits a few shots, you'll say it's because Pop was using him like Stockton. If Barry misses a few shots, you'll say it's because Pop turned him into a spot up shooter.

Same shitck.

So you are already backing off the take that Barry replaced Beno as point guard?



No...I'm saying that Barry was the guy initiating the offense and Beno was the guy standing around...





You guys can quote 82 games all you want:


Web Posted: 10/13/2007 12:37 AM CDT
Mike Monroe
San Antonio Express-News

Manu Ginobili, Brent Barry and the young camp invitees will man the point guard position for the Spurs for a second preseason game tonight.

Coach Gregg Popovich said neither starter Tony Parker (sprained ankle) nor backup Jacque Vaughn (pulled calf muscle) would play against European champion Panathinaikos at AT&T Center. Beno Udrih, the other veteran reserve point guard, is out for an extended period with a broken left index finger.

"Our three point guards are still down," said Ginobili, who started at the point in the preseason opener against Dallas on Tuesday. "So it's on me, Brent and the new guys, and we'll try to do as good a job as possible."

Ginobili likely will start again. Brent Barry, Darius Washington and Anthony Lever-Pedroza will get turns at the point as well.

[whottt]

I think you are going by the technical definition...and I am going by the times he gets to do more than just stand around...


And don't say the Spurs didn't try to convert him into a strict spot up shooter...the hell they didn't...they've been trying to do it from day 1 and Pop doesn't want him playing the point...and it's been an issue from day 1.

And Pop involves him more at times and doesn't at others, usually when it sucks, and our offense has always kicked ass when he's been more involved.

[timvp]

I'm not going to argue Barry right now. If Barry hits his shots, it's because he got to play point guard and was more involved like whottt always said. If Barry misses his shots, it's because big bad Pop was being a meanie and told him not to play point guard.

whottt will have this takes no matter if he watches the game or not.

[E20]

Back on the topic, I wouldn't mind Mahinmi getting some real playing time early in the season. I'm still not convinced that he couldn't push Elson for minutes.
Well is it a guarantee he is going to be on the Toro's on the start of the season? I haven't really seen him play, but by the readings he is material to be on the 15 final man roster. Also, it wouldn't be bad having 5 bigs on the roster. Duncan, Oberto, Elson, Horry, Mahinmi. Horry isn't gonna be playing that much in the early parts of the season so you can basically count him out for now.

[whottt]

I'm not going to argue Barry right now. If Barry hits his shots, it's because he got to play point guard and was more involved like whottt always said. If Barry misses his shots, it's because big bad Pop was being a meanie and told him not to play point guard.

whottt will have this takes no matter if he watches the game or not.



Hey...take it up with Manu.



To me it's a simple matter of looking Barry was used in Seattle VS how he has been used here...

And you guys are not objective on it...you put it all on Barry and none of it on Pop...

And some of it belongs on Pop.

Kerr played a vital role on a 3 time champion then comes here and sucks...Pop trades him and gets shown how to use Kerr by Portaland, then we get him back and everyone forgets that Kerr was the backup PG for most of that season and played extremely well in that role...then he got iced.




Just like everyone says Barry started choking last season...

That's freaking BS...he tore it up last season until his back got hurt...he didn't lose his spot due to sucking, he lost to injury, and his minutes were basically cut in half.


And no one admits that...they just say he started sucking.

Lame.

Pop makes mistakes with offensive players, in fact you could say he pretty much kills them...ask Drob sometime.

[E20]

In fact this roster for most of the season would work out:

PF/C:
Duncan
Oberto
Horry
Ian
Elson

SF:
Bonner
Bowen
Ime

Guards:
Finley
Barry
Parker
Ginobili
Beno(?)
Vaughn

That's 14 people with Ian included, still left for 1 more. IMO Ian could learn a lot more if he was with the Spurs.

[roycrikside]

Are there any highlights/video of this game anywhere?

[TDMVPDPOY]

guys like ian should be dealt with the torros

beno should be cut

that opens up 3 roster spots

alot of shit is going to happen when preseason is over, expect players to be cut/dropped by other teams, and spurs will be there for the killing

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Diamantidis is hyped up by Euro league followers but the guy looks like nothing against NBA players. I've seen him called the Greek Ron Artest ... he looks more like the Greek David Wood. He doesn't translate to the NBA game at all.

Artest? No. Not good compare. He is more like Bowen defense and offense he just pass ball and run plays. Once some time shoot open 3. So Bowen is player he most like. He slow for PG or SG but not for SF and that really most probable be his NBA position.

He be very good Battier or Bowen type player for team. But personal I think Spanoulis much better player than him.

[Dro210]

I've been saying Barry should be the backup point since the day he got here... wether you can justify it with numbers or anything, I don't care... It's just one of those things, like whottt, that I'm convinced I'm right about. He's a natural at the position, he loves playing there, and shit runs extremly well when he's playing that type of role (maybe he hasn't played much point here in the books, but he's definatly had some stretchs where he was the floor general and it was run and gun out there, no denying that)

I'm not tryin to jump in yalls arguement here... just happy to see a Barry for PG supporter


plus, come on.... vaughn, beno..... i'll take barry


we need a way to get him more minutes anyway... this way it doesn't take away from Fin and Manu... perfect fit imo

[Darkwaters]

In fact this roster for most of the season would work out:

PF/C:
Duncan
Oberto
Horry
Ian
Elson

SF:
Bonner
Bowen
Ime

Guards:
Finley
Barry
Parker
Ginobili
Beno(?)
Vaughn

That's 14 people with Ian included, still left for 1 more. IMO Ian could learn a lot more if he was with the Spurs.

Where did this notion come from that Matt Bonner is a 3? Hes way to slow...

[T Park]

guys like ian should be dealt with the torros

beno should be cut

that opens up 3 roster spots

alot of shit is going to happen when preseason is over, expect players to be cut/dropped by other teams, and spurs will be there for the killing


If Beno is cut, how does that open up 3 roster spots...

[whottt]

I dunno but I agree with the sentiment that Beno should be cut...

Spurs are a drama free team...it got AJ and Malik run...Beno damn sure shouldn't be exempt.

Too bad Vaginis wussed out bigger than Beno...I don't have a doubt they would have given him an ample opportunity to take Beno's spot.

[Darkwaters]

If Beno is cut, how does that open up 3 roster spots...

I'm just as confused :dizzy

Question. Has Darius Washington shown you enough to effectively trade Beno for Darius?

[ChumpDumper]

Might turn out that the bigman the Spurs wanted to spend this year breaking into the NBA was Ian...not Scola...another reason they made that trade.I'll agree with that, along with the fact that they were relatively happy with Bonner and Elson and fine with riding with them this season while Ian learns his trade in practice and Austin.

Eventually--

Bonner is the Horry replacement.

Ian is the Elson replacement.

Splitter is the Oberto replacement.

As far as non-Duncan bigs go, we have never had such a sure succession plan. It's a good feeling.

[whottt]

Question. Has Darius Washington shown you enough to effectively trade Beno for Darius?


Beno hasn't done shit of importance in his entire Spurs career...he's a complete and total non-factor in the Spurs success. The fact that he's now a complaining complete and total non-factor...he needs to be gone, yesterday.

[whottt]

Eventually--

Bonner is the Horry replacement.

Good luck with that Matt...




Ian is the Elson replacement.

Hopefully better...I have hopes he'll wind up a Drob lite...Drob from the first few years he and Duncan were together.


Splitter is the Oberto replacement.

He'll definitely surpass Oberto in the talent dept...



As far as non-Duncan bigs go, we have never had such a sure succession plan. It's a good feeling.


True...I'm pretty happy with the big situation, just disappointed we couldn't get better offers for Scola.


The one I'm least sold on is Bonner...but he does hustle and fight for tough rebounds...

[Darkwaters]

Beno hasn't done shit of importance in his entire Spurs career...he's a complete and total non-factor in the Spurs success. The fact that he's now a complaining complete and total non-factor...he needs to be gone, yesterday.

I have been a huge advocate of ditching Beno for some time, but a player like Washington with virtually no NBA experience could simply end up being worse. Really what I'm asking is would you be comfortable with bringing Washington on board or does the search need to continue for a viable 2nd or 3rd string Spurs PG?

[ChumpDumper]

And yes, get rid of Beno. I know he's better than Washington but so what? We already know Manu and Barry can back up the point in a pinch, so that's four point guards on the Spurs.

What purpose does Beno serve now?

[Darkwaters]

What purpose does Beno serve now?

I've been wondering that for a while myself. I don't think anybody knows.

[whottt]

I say give up the ghost and sure keep Washington...or even better, give Barry third string point duties(although we'd still be screwed if Barry got injured).

I dunno...maybe I'm weird...but I like idea of Barry and Manu getting minutes at the point and always have. And I get tired of hearing Barry can't play the point, when he had arguably his best seasons playing big minutes at the point in Seattle....including one year where he was the starting point for Seattle.


Barry's career high in assists is 16....best on the team.

[ChumpDumper]

The one I'm least sold on is Bonner...but he does hustle and fight for tough rebounds...That's fine. There are so few PFs that hit the long ball well and can otherwise stay on the floor, I can undertand why he was kept. I'm not expecting full on Horry clutchness and savvy just like I never expected a center to duplicate David Robinson once he retired. You work with what you got.

[T Park]

Beno should've been cut when he lost his PT to Nick Van Exel for god sake.

[ChumpDumper]

Barry and Manu are stopgaps, pure and simple. It's not like any of Barry's teams won the championship with him at the point. We'll always need a quick defender to cover Barry's deficiencies. Maybe that's easier to do know with Udoka on the team, but if Beno is waived he need to be replaced by some point guard prospect because we can't expect Barry to be here past this season.

[ChumpDumper]

Beno should've been cut when he lost his PT to Nick Van Exel for god sake.I have to go with when he was given the chance to prove his playoff-worthiness against Houston and got completely owned by a D-League power forward.

[Darkwaters]

Barry and Manu are stopgaps, pure and simple. It's not like any of Barry's teams won the championship with him at the point. We'll always need a quick defender to cover Barry's deficiencies. Maybe that's easier to do know with Udoka on the team, but if Beno is waived he need to be replaced by some point guard prospect because we can't expect Barry to be here past this season.

I think you could legitimately look to trade away Beno and sign Washington. Washington would go to the inactive list and Udoka would take his place on the active list.

Parker/Vaughn
Ginobili/Finley/Barry/Udoka/Bowen
Duncan/Oberto/Elson/Horry/Bonner

That would free us up to do some interesting things with Ginobili or Barry manning the point at times with Udoka offering coverage on the defensive end.

[ChumpDumper]

I know waiving Beno is a nonstarter from a salary cap standpoint, but otherwise I just don't want that guy around anymore. Give Washington a nonguaranteed deal and work him in Austin until he "gets it" or someone better comes on the radar. It would be better had there not been such a huge talent drain from the D-League over the summer, but someone always seems to rise to a decent enough level to take a chance on during the season.

[picnroll]

Went to the game and sat pretty close to the floor. My impressions:

Udoka really impresed me. He's going to get a lot of minutes off Barry, Finley or both. He's much better, more naturla offensive palyer than Bowen. Hit a couple of nice quick Js with a guy in his face.

Mahinimi. Not so much. Athletic, fearless yeah. Add fairly clueless too. Was real aggresive leaving his man for some easy looks or his man getting behind him for dunks. He's supposed to be a fast learner so he better get learing. That one outside J he hit, don't expect a lot of those if warmups was an indications. I watched him warming up, particularly at half, and he was consistently bricking short Js just outside the paint.

Williams. First time I've really watched him. Unlike timvp I think he's definitely showed some good moments. He had a couple of bad/stupid turnovers but from lack of attention. He didn't shoot well around the basket but he got to the basket and he has some good dribbling ability, nice cross over with those long arms that can be developed. Great rebounder with some real nice instincts for reading the ball. Good passer. Good defender. Definitely worth keeping and working with. He showed more IQ to me than Ian.

Bonner. A bit disappointed. Didn't really make an impac. In the battle of Greece it looks like it was Scola > Bonner.

Barry looked aggressive and confident. Hope it's not just because it's pre-season with nothing on the line.

Washingon, Lever, Clang, etc. hope you enjoyed your trip to the riverwalk.

[TDMVPDPOY]

i think the knicks have 17 on there roster

say if malik rose is going to get cut, would the spurs give him another go?

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

C OBERTO/ELSON
PF DUNCAN/BONNER/HORRY
SF BOWEN/UDOKA
SG MANU/FINLEY/BARRY
PG PARKER/VAUGHN

IR1: DARIUS
IR2: MARCUS
IR3: IAN

Then in some points during the season when Horry gets a rest and the Spurs feel like giving some of the guards a rest too we can see some Ian, Darius, and Marcus in the regular season.

I feel really good about this season. :) :clap :smokin

[E20]

Where did this notion come from that Matt Bonner is a 3? Hes way to slow...
Is Bonner a traditional PF/C? I wouldn't think so. He has no post prescense or post game. He hovers around the free-throw line extended area or beyond the arc, mainly jumpshooting/threes. I think the main reason Spurs signed a 6-10 guy like Bonner is to free up the lane of the opponents PF/C for TD to have more workspace and for Parker/Ginobili to have easier time of penetration, so far I haven't seen that. Bonner plays more like a SF than he does PF/C.

[Spurs Brazil]

-The Spurs crowd, even considering it's a preseason crowd, was pretty pathetic. I've seen more fans at a preseason WNBA game. The arena was about 40% of capacity at most.

Look at the Attendance on the box score: 17,144

Where all this people?? :lol

[Kori Ellis]

Look at the Attendance on the box score: 17,144

Where all this people?? :lol

There's was probably 9,000 people there :lol

[timvp]

Went to the game and sat pretty close to the floor. My impressions:

Udoka really impresed me. He's going to get a lot of minutes off Barry, Finley or both. He's much better, more naturla offensive palyer than Bowen. Hit a couple of nice quick Js with a guy in his face.I actually didn't like him taking those shots. I think he has to show better shot selection than shooting when he's being tightly guarded. In the Spurs' offense, there's really no need to take a contested jumper with time on the shot clock. Defensively though, I was really impressed with how well he understands the Spurs' system after just a couple weeks.


Mahinimi. Not so much. Athletic, fearless yeah. Add fairly clueless too. Was real aggresive leaving his man for some easy looks or his man getting behind him for dunks. He's supposed to be a fast learner so he better get learing. That one outside J he hit, don't expect a lot of those if warmups was an indications. I watched him warming up, particularly at half, and he was consistently bricking short Js just outside the paint.Clueless is a given for a Spurs' big. Nazr was clueless his whole time here. Elson still looks pretty clueless when it comes to defensive rotations. I didn't expect a 20-year-old guy who has barely played at any level to come in and not look like a fish out of water when it comes to understanding the schemes.

I was impressed with his raw tools and his demeanor. If it took a guy like Horry half a season to learn the schemes, I was prepared for Mahinmi to look clueless ... but I understand what you mean. I just have a hard time holding that against him at this point.

I do agree the jumper he made didn't look like it'd become part of his natural repertoire.


Williams. First time I've really watched him. Unlike timvp I think he's definitely showed some good moments. He had a couple of bad/stupid turnovers but from lack of attention. He didn't shoot well around the basket but he got to the basket and he has some good dribbling ability, nice cross over with those long arms that can be developed. Great rebounder with some real nice instincts for reading the ball. Good passer. Good defender. Definitely worth keeping and working with. He showed more IQ to me than Ian.That was probably the best Williams has played. You saw him at his peak. I think playing against the 6-foot-2 slow backup Euro small forwards helped him out. For example, that's why his ability to drive to the basket seemed to be better than it really is. Even then, he still had a lot of ugly plays.

His rebounding has been pretty good. That's the one thing I've liked about him from the beginning. Defense has been inconsistent but I do like that he tries on that end of the court. But again, he looked good defensively going up against overmatched players.

That said, going 2-for-7 with some blown layups and some ugly plays against bad competition isn't exactly enough for me to forget all the bad I've seen out of him in the last couple months.


Bonner. A bit disappointed. Didn't really make an impac. In the battle of Greece it looks like it was Scola > Bonner.Did you noticed the increased athleticism? I thought Bonner was moving and jumping much better.


Barry looked aggressive and confident. Hope it's not just because it's pre-season with nothing on the line.Agree on both counts.


Washingon, Lever, Clang, etc. hope you enjoyed your trip to the riverwalk.Yeah, Washington is the best out of the group and he really isn't something overly special. I think he could score in the Spurs system and become a pretty good defender. But really, his chances of making the team has to be around 2% due to Beno's guaranteed contract.

Williams looks to be safe because there's no one to compete against him. I do think he's lucky that the Air Force kept Nwaelele away from Spurs' camp. Nwaelele would have had a good shot at beating out Williams and making the team.


P.S.
Nice job on your write-up :tu

[picnroll]

I actually didn't like him taking those shots.

One of those shots was with no time on the shot clock and i think the other one was pretty close, no time to pass and have the other guy have time to do anything but can't remember for sure. Thing is to me it looks like he ahas enough offensive skills that Spurs can get away with Manu, Parker, Bowen he and Duncan on the floor together in small ball and he can still get something done on O. If he was strictly a Bowen clone offensively that would put to a lot of pressure on Duncan, Manu and Parker.

Bonner did look more athletic, definitely quicker moved his feet on D but he didn't make his mark, particularly in O.

It wasn't Scola or Bonner choice. Scola was the price it took to dump Butler and that money had to go but I still have a bad feeling about how that trade is going to work out.

[whottt]

You guys are lame with the Barry folds underpressure comments...

That's not when he does it...that's not why he does it.

He's stepped up in some big games and you guys just flat out refuse to give him credit for the times he's done so.

He's played great in what could be described as some of the biggest games of his career, and some of the biggest games of the Spurs season, and played lousy in someflat out meaningless games...

But go ahead and say it's the pressure...that ship will sink....

And don't bother showing up to admit error when he actually disproves that...no sense doing that now...

[picnroll]

You guys are lame with the Barry folds underpressure comments...

That's not when he does it...that's not why he does it.

He's stepped up in some big games and you guys just flat out refuse to give him credit for the times he's done so.

He's played great in what could be described as some of the biggest games of his career, and some of the biggest games of the Spurs season, and played lousy in someflat out meaningless games...

But go ahead and say it's the pressure...that ship will sink.
Barry has had some big moments but not nearly consistently enough. When he came from Seatlle, based on how he'd played there I expected him to be on in 75% of the games as an impact player. Turned out to be now and then.

[whottt]

Barry has had some big moments but not nearly consistently enough. When he came from Seatlle, based on how he'd played there I expected him to be on in 75% of the games as an impact player. Turned out to be now and then.



He doesn't get used like he was used in Seattle...

[whottt]

I've seen Barry play his best basketball in games where he was getting smacked around....

I've seen him knock down huge shots on the road, when no one else on the team was playing particularly well, in the playoffs, and I've seem him hit game winners/or tiers in the playoffs...

You don't turn that sort of thing on and off...you either can do it, or you can't...and Barry can do it. Whatever his problems are...it's not that he folds underpressure...and it's bad/lazy analysis to make that claim.

[picnroll]

He doesn't get used like he was used in Seattle... So who you going to blame Pop for not changing the way the Spurs play to accomodate Barry or Barry not being able to adjust and contribute in the Spurs' style of play?

[picnroll]

I've seen Barry play his best basketball in games where he was getting smacked around....

I've seen him knock down huge shots on the road, when no one else on the team was playing particularly well, in the playoffs, and I've seem him hit game winners/or tiers in the playoffs...

You don't turn that sort of thing on and off...you either can do it, or you can't...and Barry can do it. Whatever his problems are...it's not that he folds underpressure...and it's bad/lazy analysis to make that claim.
To me Barry plays best when he plays aggressively and confidently like any player but unlikely some like Manu who can fuck up four times in a row and remain aggressive and confident Barry fucks up once and shrinks. Jack had that ability to fuck up and move on in spades, maybe too many spades. Hedo didn't. Barry doesn't. Manu does.

[whottt]

Because when Barry fucks up his ass gets put on the bench and gets dropped to the back of the rotation...


IF you guys want to claim Barry freaks out over PT I'll concede the point....

He's insecure about his rotation spot....not the game situation.


And that's a reason why it's a bad idea to try and get a player to change his game...once you get them out of their game, they can't be agressive...because they are on uncertain ground, and also, while they may have an idea of what changes you want them to make...they probably don't have the big picture.

[whottt]

So in answer to your question...

It's the coaches job to maximize the talents of the players, not the players job to change into a different player....

If you are a coach and your best player goes down....you know, the guy the team is built around...

You can beat that dead horse all you want...and tell guys they need to play better, but ultimately, it's going to fail...

And the great coaches in any sport, were the guys who could adjust to the strenghts of their players.



Barry is one of the most efficient offensive players in the NBA...even when you guys say he's sucked...

He's usually lead the team in 2 or 3 offensive categories...





Last year he was #1 in the entire NBA in true shooting PCT...
He lead the Spurs in virtually every shooting category.


His first year here he lead the team in 2pt PCT and adjust FG% as well as assist to to ratio....


Ok so he sucks and overthinks when he's asked to do nothing more than stand there and spot up for threes...

Then stop asking him to do that...and run a couple of plays for him...

Because when he's playing good...our offense freaking rolls and we blow teams out.

[picnroll]

Barry also has the disadvantage of not being a strong defender. Pop will only tolerate weak defense and getting beat in assignment for so long. The Spurs whole game plan centers around defensive execution. Ultimately Barry was maybe just a bad choice to bring in. Maybe Pop thought he could make Barry a better defender than he actually could. But Barry also hangs his head on offense when he misses shots or makes bad plays. Pop will tolerate some of that. More than Barry will tolerate in himself.

[whottt]

In 1990...the Giants won a Superbowl...they had a team built around a strong running game, the high pct drop back passing of Phil Simms...and a tough d...

Phil Simms went down late in that season and his backup Jeff Hostetler, was not a not a classsic drop back passer...he was a scrambler...

Did Bill Parcells sit there and try and change Hostetler into a drop back passer? Or did he set his offense up to maximize the talents of his QB?

He changed...he didn't force the player to change.


What has Pat Riley done in making himself the only coach to take 3 different teams to the Finals?


He's adjusted to the strenghts of his players...they were all 3 completely different teams. That played completely different styles of ball.




And you guys act like I'm asking the Spurs to to retool their entire offensive playbook just so Barry will be comfortable...

I'm saying just run a couple of plays for him...you don't have to change anything about our offense...it makes him more confident, and then he does better at the spot up shooting.


We paying him 5 million dollars a year....would make sense to try and get the most out of that money. And that's a hell of a lot of money to pay a spot up shooter...

[whottt]

Barry also has the disadvantage of not being a strong defender. Pop will only tolerate weak defense and getting beat in assignment for so long. The Spurs whole game plan centers around defensive execution. Ultimately Barry was maybe just a bad choice to bring in. Maybe Pop thought he could make Barry a better defender than he actually could. But Barry also hangs his head on offense when he misses shots or makes bad plays. Pop will tolerate some of that. More than Barry will tolerate in himself.


That's exactly it right there...

That's what it was with Kerr too....


Those guys know that Pop doesn't really want them on the court...he wants his defensive guys to be the ones who suceed...that is an external pressure created by Pop...

Everyone knows he basically thinks offensive only players are garbage...including those players.


Which is why it was a bad idea to sign Barry...


That falls under the category of trying to change the player into something he's not...and you are never going to get a confident player out of that.


Barry's intentions in coming were pure...he came here for a ring...

The Spurs intentions in signing him were not pure...they didn't like his game, they wanted it to be something different.


Still...2 titles in 3 years...things could have been worse.

[whottt]

The fact is Barry has tried to do what the Spurs asked him...he's taken an inconsistent role and PT...and he's kept his mouth shut...

The fact that he isn't successful in changing his game to the extent everyone wants him too...doesn't mean he's a bad player.

If they'd told Barry as he was taking less to sign here...

We hate your game, you are going to have to completley change it...and you are going to be relegated to the deep bench a few time per season...

Barry probably would not have signed here.


Barry came here anticipating backing up both guard spots and being the key 6thman off the bench....I mean look at what they were paying him...




Teams usually don't court FA's by saying they want to change their games...

[picnroll]

Still...2 titles in 3 years...things could have been worse.

... and I doubt Barry is looking back and regretting that offer he turned down from the Blazers where he could have made more money and had a bigger role.

[objective]

re: the Barry point guard thing

Beno played 15 minutes in the season opener in 04/05, he was always the back-up point in 04/05.

I think what people might be getting confused over is how Barry was used.

In that season opener was a great Barry/Duncan pick-n-roll that ended in a Duncan dunk, and of course was featured in all the highlight shows that talked about what a great pick up Barry was. Legler for one declared that Barry would be 6th Man of the Year, and I believe his quote was 'Book it!'

That sort of use of Barry with the ball in his hands is what a lot of people expected, but it kind of disappeared soon after that game.

[whottt]

... and I doubt Barry is looking back and regretting that offer he turned down from the Blazers where he could have made more money and had a bigger role.


I don't have a doubt Barry wanted to be a Spur...and he's conducted himself like one for his entire time here...


But he probably wouldn't have wanted to sign with a team where he wasn't wanted...ring or not...


Would you?

[wildbill2u]

Tonight they had a lot of turnovers on traveling. And even palming. They pretty much had every type of turnover possible.

Regarding moving screens, every NBA team is getting called for moving screens in the preseason a lot. It's because it's one of the referees points of emphasis this year.
PALMING? An NBA ref called palming? NBA refs don't call palming. No wonder the Greeks lost, they were fighting homer refs.

[picnroll]

I don't have a doubt Barry wanted to be a Spur...and he's conducted himself like one for his entire time here...


But he probably wouldn't have wanted to sign with a team where he wasn't wanted...ring or not...


Would you?
As they say it's a business. I remember him being pretty ecstatic, not offended and wanting to leave, when the deal for JR Smith fell through. He's had great teammates and has the memories of having some clutch moments contributing to NBA titles. It could have been better but it could have been worse, like palying with a bunch of knuckleheads and gong nowhere in Portland.

[whottt]

Barry's never had the luxury of being told...you're the guy, this is your role...

It's been...you suck defensively, and any hustling defensive guy is going to be put ahead of you in the rotation if they are hitting their threes at a decent rate.

I think that was a mistake...becuase I think if you weigh his offensive stregnths vs his defensive liablities...he still comes out ahead at a player you want on the court, to most coaches without a defense is everything mindset.


THe Spurs should be glad they signed Barry....double teams for Duncan have never been a problem since we signed him...he's been invaluable at spot duty backing up Bruce, when Manu's been injured, and when Beno has been sucking...


Beno is the soft player who chokes...not Barry...

Beno has been told, you're my back up PG, by Pop since the day he was drafted...and he's the guy that's folded under pressure, that's whined...etc.

And you guys do a hell of a disservice to Barry by making similar claims about him...

Barry plays better when he gets knocked around...and when the pressure has been at it's highest...he's come up with some of his best games....even when his shot wasn't falling.

[picnroll]

Beno isn't even a player. Beno is a bench ornament.

[whottt]

As they say it's a business. I remember him being pretty ecstatic, not offended and wanting to leave, when the deal for JR Smith fell through. He's had great teammates and has the memories of having some clutch moments contributing to NBA titles. It could have been better but it could have been worse, like palying with a bunch of knuckleheads and gong nowhere in Portland.



It's a simple matter of pride...no one wants to be given up on, or be the guy the championship team could do without...


See you guys act suprised that Barry's not a shithead...guess what, he's not one.

[itzsoweezee]

-Ian Mahinmi is looking about as good as can be expected. * * * He's not going to be a great player

what a surprise. there's this other big guy that the spurs had who they gave away to a division rival to save a couple million bucks. what was his name again? anyway, that guy is going to be a great player. you just gotta love those cheap bastards - aka, the spurs front office for choosing mediocrity and money over championships. oh wait, no you don't. fuck the spurs FO.

[whottt]

Beno isn't even a player. Beno is a bench ornament.


Just remember when you guys say Barry's afraid of pressure...


He came here to win a ring...I expect he knew there would be big games that would need to be played while he was in a Spurs uniform.



Hedo was the guy who couldn't get out of town fast enough....


And if anything Barry's problems are because he hasn't been as big a part of it as he wanted to be.


The choker/folds under pressure criticism of Barry has always pissed me off...because it's so obviously not true.

[picnroll]

Barry was brought in as the filler for Hedo who was the filler for Jack. He was brought in with a defined role. He was supposed to be the swing man off the bench, Brown wasn't supposed to be. He got the mintues intially. It didn't work out and meet Pop's expectations as well as the he'd hoped.

[objective]

Question for those who have seen Mahinmi this preseason:

How would you compare how he looks right now to how Johan Petro looked last year, his second year in the league?

Compare and contrast please.

[Darkwaters]

what a surprise. there's this other big guy that the spurs had who they gave away to a division rival to save a couple million bucks. what was his name again? anyway, that guy is going to be a great player. you just gotta love those cheap bastards - aka, the spurs front office for choosing mediocrity and money over championships. oh wait, no you don't. fuck the spurs FO.

Scola is going to be a good player. But who knows if he'll be great? I have seen no indication of that.

[Darkwaters]

Williams looks to be safe because there's no one to compete against him. I do think he's lucky that the Air Force kept Nwaelele away from Spurs' camp. Nwaelele would have had a good shot at beating out Williams and making the team.

The Suns just released Rawle Marshall. Would he be a better project than Marcus Williams?

[spursrule32]

what a surprise. there's this other big guy that the spurs had who they gave away to a division rival to save a couple million bucks. what was his name again? anyway, that guy is going to be a great player. you just gotta love those cheap bastards - aka, the spurs front office for choosing mediocrity and money over championships. oh wait, no you don't. fuck the spurs FO.

I disagree - I think Ian has a chance (slight as it may be) of being more important to the Spurs scheme of playing solid D than Scola would have been to their offensive scheme. I know I'll catch flack for this, but we have our offense covered by the big 3 and a few of our bench players. Why sacrifice defense, so that you can get a few more points out of a player that won't be as prolific in our offense as he has been elsewhere? I was at the game last night and although Ian looked a little lost, he looked pretty impressive with his athleticism to block that shot that went across mid court (I know - just one play but still impressive.) We don't have a lot of quick big men that can react to players like Utah's Williams, Dallas' Harris, Phoenix' Barbosa (even though he struggles) and other quick guards that can be contained a bit with quick backside defensive help. Then again - I could be wrong and Ian could end up being a waste of potential.

[timvp]

So in answer to your question...

It's the coaches job to maximize the talents of the players, not the players job to change into a different player....

If you are a coach and your best player goes down....you know, the guy the team is built around...

You can beat that dead horse all you want...and tell guys they need to play better, but ultimately, it's going to fail...

And the great coaches in any sport, were the guys who could adjust to the strenghts of their players.



Barry is one of the most efficient offensive players in the NBA...even when you guys say he's sucked...

He's usually lead the team in 2 or 3 offensive categories...





Last year he was #1 in the entire NBA in true shooting PCT...
He lead the Spurs in virtually every shooting category.


His first year here he lead the team in 2pt PCT and adjust FG% as well as assist to to ratio....


Ok so he sucks and overthinks when he's asked to do nothing more than stand there and spot up for threes...

Then stop asking him to do that...and run a couple of plays for him...

Because when he's playing good...our offense freaking rolls and we blow teams out.This is a classic post.

First of all, how is whottt going to talk down Pop as if Pop did something wrong by winning two out of the last three championships. The only time the Spurs didn't win was when Barry was so bad that he couldn't even inbound a pass. As long as Barry has been the human mannequin on the court and just not messed up, the Spurs have been okay the last three seasons.

I've grown to like Barry but nobody can tell me he lived up to his billing or his contract. He's been a disappointment personally but I give him bonus points for staying relatively positive. He's also a good teammate. Barry has been a good Spur.

But seriously, the lunacy must stop. Pop isn't going to turn the Spurs into the Suns so that Barry can play how he played on those lotto teams when he put up big numbers. Who seriously thought Pop would allow him to play exactly the same with the Spurs? There's a difference between championship basketball and Sonic basketball.

It's also classic how whottt always points to regular season stats with Barry. He conveniently ignores what Barry did in the playoffs and if pressed, he'll blame Pop, the other players, the coyote ... anything except putting blame on Barry. It's like Shane Heal/Steve Kerr/Tim Derk all over again.

How can whottt insinuate as Barry goes so goes the Spurs? The Spurs lost their first three games in the playoffs last year in which Barry played over 12 minutes. The only thing extended playing time given to Barry did last year in the playoffs was make the Spurs lose.

Looking at it any a broader scale ... guess which Spur over the last three years has the worst +/- in the playoffs? Yep, Mr. Untouchable himself, Brent Barry. Worse than Beno or anyone else you can name.

Bottomline is Barry is a good guy and wants to win, I'll give him that. However, he hasn't lived up to the expectations or his contract. And no, you can't pin the blame on 4-time champion Pop or the teammates that helped Barry win two rings.

[T Park]

guess which Spur over the last three years has the worst +/- in the playoffs? Yep, Mr. Untouchable himself, Brent Barry

More than Beno?

Ok thats just down right disgustingly embarassing right there.....

[objective]

Question for those who have seen Mahinmi this preseason:

How would you compare how he looks right now to how Johan Petro looked last year, his second year in the league?

Compare and contrast please.

[whottt]

This is a classic post.

First of all, how is whottt going to talk down Pop as if Pop did something wrong by winning two out of the last three championships. The only time the Spurs didn't win was when Barry was so bad that he couldn't even inbound a pass.

So Barry is the reason we didn't beat the Mavs? That's even more classic.





I've grown to like Barry but nobody can tell me he lived up to his billing or his contract. He's been a disappointment personally but I give him bonus points for staying relatively positive. He's also a good teammate. Barry has been a good Spur.

More classic...so he hasn't lived up to his billing yet...



Pop isn't going to turn the Spurs into the Suns so that Barry can play how he played on those lotto teams when he put up big numbers.

So let me get this straight...

Barry hasn't lived up to his billing - Your words

Pop isn't going to turn the Spurs into the Suns so that Barry can play how he played on those lotto teams when he put up big numbers - Your words again


So you hold Barry accountable for not playing as well as he played in Seattle...

And then in the next sentence you sit there and say you can't expect Pop to let him play like he played in Seattle...


Got it.


Makes perfect sense.


As does the decision to sign a non D playing, low scoring transition guard, and expect him to be a D oriented, high scoring, half court spot up shooter...

For 5 mil a year.

Yeah Barry's fault he couldn't turn into an entirely different player...

No, that Pop's fault. That's the Spurs fault.

I am sure Barry, like everyone else, thought, that since they were paying him 5 mil a year, they'd want utilize his strenghts...

Silly Barry, silly us. They didn't want Barry...they wanted someone entitrely different...and it's his fault he's not that guy.






Who seriously thought Pop would allow him to play exactly the same with the Spurs? There's a difference between championship basketball and Sonic basketball.


Yeah...Sonics basketball swept the 2001 Lakers...they also almost bumped a Duncanless Spurs team out of the playoffs...

And there was marked difference in the Sonics W-L when he was injured.


It's also classic how whottt always points to regular season stats with Barry. He conveniently ignores what Barry did in the playoffs and if pressed, he'll blame Pop, the other players, the coyote ... anything except putting blame on Barry. It's like Shane Heal/Steve Kerr/Tim Derk all over again.

You mean like hte fact that he was the Spurs all time leading 3 PCT shooter in the post season...

You mean like the game winner against the Kings?

Or blowing game 1 against the Suns open in the fourth quarter of the 2005 WCF?


I know, I know...those don't matter....


How can whottt insinuate as Barry goes so goes the Spurs?
How can timvp say I'm making that insinuation?





Looking at it any a broader scale ... guess which Spur over the last three years has the worst +/- in the playoffs? Yep, Mr. Untouchable himself, Brent Barry. Worse than Beno or anyone else you can name.

So Beno > Barry..

Got it.




Bottomline is Barry is a good guy and wants to win, I'll give him that. However, he hasn't lived up to the expectations or his contract.

Because they Spurs didn't want a guy who can do what Barry can do...they wanted someone else, and tried to turn Barry into that...

And that's their fault...it's a fools errand.




And no, you can't pin the blame on 4-time champion Pop or the teammates that helped Barry win two rings.

I can pin the blame on the Spurs...they signed the dude and then wanted him to play a completely different game....they were the ones that knew they were going to change his game...

[whottt]

And furthermore...I said run a couple of plays for him, and let him initiate the offense...


You then turned that into retooling the entire offensive system and turning them into the Suns...I made no such claim, but nice exaggeration.

[mountainballer]

Washington - I liked him until I realized that he's 5'10 or so :lol


Washington's measures from the predraft camp 2006:

Height w/o Shoes 5' 11.5"
Height w/shoes 6' 1"
Weight 195
Wingspan 6' 4"
Max Vert 37.5

sure, he isn't a very tall guy, but it's not that bad. (almsot exactly the same measures like Chris Paul)

I think Washington could be a sleeper. in his freshman year, he really looked like a very promising player, but he somehow went the wrong direction. shouldn't have left college after sophomore season. considering he is just 21, there should be still a lot of room for improvement.
I see all the financial issues, that will force the Spurs to not waive Beno (and repleace him with a player like Darius) and agree that it is very unlikely, that it might happen. personally I would really like this move, even if there is a big risk that Washington also won't be any good.
but he reminds me about Daniel Gibson. they were about the same level and similar players a year ago. (Gibson had a much better reputation about his work ethic and character though, likely the major reason why he was drafted and Washington was not).
it also took some time last season, till Gibson started to make an impact. but we all saw in the POs, what potential Gibson does have and why he is considered a steal today.

[mardigan]

fuck the spurs FO.
Yea, they have such a shitty track record :lol

[Kori Ellis]

Washington's measures from the predraft camp 2006:

Height w/o Shoes 5' 11.5" ...


That's good to know. I was standing near him and he didn't have his shoes on. I had on high heels and we were close to the same height. My guess was that he was 5'10/5'11.

[Mr. Body]

The Suns just released Rawle Marshall. Would he be a better project than Marcus Williams?

Way back all of a year ago, when Indiana was pondering what extra player they had to jettison and dumped James White, it was Rawle Marshall I hoped would drop for the Spurs to get. Looks like fantasy basketball's not much different than the league itself: after a certain point it's extremely diminishing returns.

And no, I'd not take Marshall over Williams. At least gawky Marcus has a shot at anything.