Even in preseason the Mavs are getting shit on! [Archive]

1Parker1

10-17-2007, 07:33 AM

This is exactly why I don't think the Mavs will ever win a championship with this core. What kind of drama is this for the preseason? First off Brad Miller got mad, took it out on Devin Harris a little (who by the way totally flopped and milked that), Harris approriately got in Brad's face which is understandable. It would have ended there with a tech, and the refs separating them. Instead replays show Josh Howard literally charging from the other side of the court towards Brad Miller and attacking him from behind...and it wasn't just a little shove, he almost hurt the guy's neck it looked like. I mean, this is preseason? Mavs biggest problem is they don't know how to keep cool and poised...

Viva Las Espuelas

10-17-2007, 07:41 AM

Hee Haw already up to no good. these guys are going to go up in flames. :corn:

Findog

10-17-2007, 07:52 AM

stretch

10-17-2007, 07:57 AM

I swear, Harris must hate Brad Miller, because it seems like at least 2 or 3 other times, Miller has done some kind of cheap shit to him.

FromWayDowntown

10-17-2007, 08:03 AM

"Mavs are soft!"

"Mavs are too thuggish for their own good."

Pick a lane please.

I'd argue that players who engage in thuggish activities tend to be fairly mentally soft. I'm not sure what good it does the Mavericks for Josh Howard to open himself up to an early season suspension (and there's probably one coming for that action) in a preseason game, but if Mavs fans think there's some good that comes from that, they know their team better than I do.

Bruno

10-17-2007, 08:11 AM

Video of the Howard/Miller incident :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hq0hR49nwCE

Stupidity at his best, Howard will be suspended for one or two games because of that.

Shank

10-17-2007, 08:32 AM

Miller's a fag and always has been. What's with the cornrows, douchebag?

And you can tell by that clip that Miller was probably intending on taking it out on Fazekas, but Devin just happened to be there. But whatever - show me where Miller has actually backed up his tough guy actions and I'll be able to witness it for the first time. Dude's nothing but Everlast in high-tops.

stretch

10-17-2007, 08:33 AM

nkdlunch

10-17-2007, 08:35 AM

haha mavs act rough vs. Brad Miller. they are so hardcore

FromWayDowntown

10-17-2007, 08:38 AM

Miller totally deserved that. He acts like such a bitch on the court. That push on Harris was completely uncalled for. At least Howard had a reason to shove him. He had no reason to push Harris at all. And that was not a forearm to the neck. Howard just shoved him up high, no different than what Miller did to Harris. A shove.

Granted, Josh should not have done that, but it does not deserve a suspension. A fine, sure. Suspension? You must be kidding... Bruce Bowen kicked Ray Allen in the back, and didn't get suspended.

Bowen didn't run the length of the court to involve himself in that incident. He also didn't get himself involved in someone else's altercation.

By the way, what's up with AJ playing Dirk for nearly 38 minutes in the 4th preseason game and having Terry, Dirk, and Harris all on the floor at the end of that game? At first blush, that would seem to run contrary to the suggestion that AJ was going to manage this season in a more Pop-like fashion.

Findog

10-17-2007, 08:41 AM

I'd argue that players who engage in thuggish activities tend to be fairly mentally soft. I'm not sure what good it does the Mavericks for Josh Howard to open himself up to an early season suspension (and there's probably one coming for that action) in a preseason game, but if Mavs fans think there's some good that comes from that, they know their team better than I do.

Teams are trying to punk us. Golden State punked us repeatedly and our guys didn't fight back. Looks like they're not taking this shit lying down anymore. Good for them. So Howard gets suspended for one regular season game and worst-case scenario we lose it. Fine, whatever. We're winning 55+ games and getting a top four seed regardless. This team can't let teams punk them again collectively like the Warriors did. That's worth more than one regular season win.

nkdlunch

10-17-2007, 08:43 AM

Amarelooms

10-17-2007, 08:43 AM

Props to Howard for punking his ass...I would have done the same. Fuck all you haters...gotta stick up for eachother.

FromWayDowntown

10-17-2007, 08:48 AM

Teams are trying to punk us. Golden State punked us repeatedly and our guys didn't fight back. Looks like they're not taking this shit lying down anymore. Good for them. So Howard gets suspended for one regular season game and worst-case scenario we lose it. Fine, whatever. We're winning 55+ games and getting a top four seed regardless. This team can't let teams punk them again collectively like the Warriors did. That's worth more than one regular season win.

Hmmm, so getting physical with the Mavericks will encourage Josh Howard to lose his cool and get himself ejected?

Is that what that was intended to prove? Do Mavs fans really think that opponents won't continue to try to get physical with them because Josh Howard is willing to expose himself to ejection/suspension by taking a cheap shot to payback a cheap shot? I could see that it would actually have the opposite effect -- get physical with them and make them lose their cool and you might get more than just the incidental benefit of messing with their focus; you might actually gain a real advantage by getting a key player ejected from the game.

mardigan

10-17-2007, 08:53 AM

That was Harris's best flop to date. What a little bitch

nkdlunch

10-17-2007, 08:54 AM

gotta stick up for eachother.

just like Amare did and got suspended in playoffs and cost the series for his team LOL

I agree stick up for your teamates but use your brain first and foremost

Findog

10-17-2007, 08:56 AM

Bowen didn't run the length of the court to involve himself in that incident. He also didn't get himself involved in someone else's altercation.

By the way, what's up with AJ playing Dirk for nearly 38 minutes in the 4th preseason game and having Terry, Dirk, and Harris all on the floor at the end of that game? At first blush, that would seem to run contrary to the suggestion that AJ was going to manage this season in a more Pop-like fashion.

What Bowen did was more chickenshit that Howard sticking up for a teammate.

FromWayDowntown

10-17-2007, 08:57 AM

What Bowen did was more chickenshit that Howard sticking up for a teammate.

Bowen put a foot in the back of a guy who landed on his legs. Not commendable, but hardly the same, I think, as running across the floor to shove a guy from behind when that guy was already engaged in a confrontation with another player.

Findog

10-17-2007, 08:58 AM

Hmmm, so getting physical with the Mavericks will encourage Josh Howard to lose his cool and get himself ejected?

Is that what that was intended to prove? Do Mavs fans really think that opponents won't continue to try to get physical with them because Josh Howard is willing to expose himself to ejection/suspension by taking a cheap shot to payback a cheap shot? I could see that it would actually have the opposite effect -- get physical with them and make them lose their cool and you might get more than just the incidental benefit of messing with their focus; you might actually gain a real advantage by getting a key player ejected from the game.

Let's wait until Howard attacks a guy in a playoff game before we go with your hypothesis. Punking Brad Miller in order to stick up for a teammate is well worth sitting out one regular season game, or 2-3 at the worst.

stretch

10-17-2007, 08:58 AM

By the way, what's up with AJ playing Dirk for nearly 38 minutes in the 4th preseason game and having Terry, Dirk, and Harris all on the floor at the end of that game? At first blush, that would seem to run contrary to the suggestion that AJ was going to manage this season in a more Pop-like fashion.
Probably to just get them some PT to see how they react to late game situations. He probably will not even play Dirk the next game.

stretch

10-17-2007, 08:59 AM

Bowen put a foot in the back of a guy who was laying on top of his legs.
Bowen kicked him and then didn't do shit. At least Howard isn't afraid of anyone, and doesn't take shit no matter what. That's definitely more chickenshit.

Findog

10-17-2007, 08:59 AM

Bowen put a foot in the back of a guy who was laying on top of his legs.

Bowen KICKED a guy in the back for HORROR OF HORRORS! laying on top of his legs. Does Ray Allen weigh 3 tons? Was Bruce Bowen trapped helplessly like Baby Jessica?

mardigan

10-17-2007, 08:59 AM

Let's wait until Howard attacks a guy in a playoff game before we go with your hypothesis. Punking Brad Miller in order to stick up for a teammate is well worth sitting out one regular season game, or 2-3 at the worst.
Punking? :lol
He ended up looking like a bitch, Miller didnt hardly even move even though he was pushed in the back, and Howard gets thrown off the floor and suspended. If anyone got punked it was howard

mardigan

10-17-2007, 09:00 AM

Bowen kicked him and then didn't do shit. At least Howard isn't afraid of anyone, and doesn't take shit no matter what. That's definitely more chickenshit.
Yea, hitting a guy who isnt looking takes some balls

FromWayDowntown

10-17-2007, 09:03 AM

Bowen KICKED a guy in the back for HORROR OF HORRORS! laying on top of his legs. Does Ray Allen weigh 3 tons? Was Bruce Bowen trapped helplessly like Baby Jessica?

Actually, I think Bowen kicked Ray Allen in the back for bitching about having been validly called for an offensive foul and whining again about Bruce owning him.

But if it makes you feel better to change the subject and whine some more about the league's preferrential treatment of Bruce Bowen, that's your prerogative.

Findog

10-17-2007, 09:03 AM

Punking? :lol
He ended up looking like a bitch, Miller didnt hardly even move even though he was pushed in the back, and Howard gets thrown off the floor and suspended. If anyone got punked it was howard

Miller is the guy that threw a guy half his size to the floor. Fuck him.

FromWayDowntown

10-17-2007, 09:04 AM

Bowen kicked him and then didn't do shit. At least Howard isn't afraid of anyone, and doesn't take shit no matter what. That's definitely more chickenshit.

Well, then I guess tough guys get suspended and chickenshits collect rings.

mardigan

10-17-2007, 09:05 AM

Miller is the guy that threw a guy half his size to the floor. Fuck him.
You would have thought by now watching mavs basketball that you could tell whne Harris flops or is actually pushed. It was completely obvious that he threw himself on the ground. It looked like a Manu flop x2

Bruno

10-17-2007, 09:06 AM

It's the nba and not street basketball. You don't have to defend your teammates or defend yourself : refs and video tapes will do it better than you.

Someone do a hard foul/cheap shot on you or on one of your teammate, just be happy and sunk your technical free throws. Even if the refs don't see it, be happy because the player will be suspended by the league.

After a hard foul/cheap shot, the best thing to do is just to continue to play like before.
If you change your way to play because you are scared, you're weak.
If you answer to it, you're stupid.

Findog

10-17-2007, 09:07 AM

You would have thought by now watching mavs basketball that you could tell whne Harris flops or is actually pushed. It was completely obvious that he threw himself on the ground. It looked like a Manu flop x2

He and Manu are so good at what they do, it's hard to tell sometimes. From the camera angle I saw, you could make a case either way. :lol

Findog

10-17-2007, 09:07 AM

Well, then I guess tough guys get suspended and chickenshits collect rings.

Yeah, franchise player Bruce Bowen is well on his way to Springfield, Mass. Tim Duncan is just along for the ride.

Findog

10-17-2007, 09:11 AM

Actually, I think Bowen kicked Ray Allen in the back for bitching about having been validly called for an offensive foul and whining again about Bruce owning him.

But if it makes you feel better to change the subject and whine some more about the league's preferrential treatment of Bruce Bowen, that's your prerogative.

I'm not the one who brought up the Allen-Bowen incident. I was just responding to the comparison that was made and your defense of Bowen. I didn't realize we couldn't comment on something peripheral to the subject of the thread.

jmard5

10-17-2007, 09:16 AM

He and Manu are so good at what they do, it's hard to tell sometimes. From the camera angle I saw, you could make a case either way. :lol

Manu still flops? Where were you last season?

cornbread

10-17-2007, 09:21 AM

What's Brad Miller so depressed about all the time? He always looks so sad.

Humble Billy Hayes

10-17-2007, 09:21 AM

Manu never flops. Ray Allen threw his back into Bruce Bowen's foot. The Mavericks always cheat and the refs give them every game against the Spurs. And don't go disagreeing with Spurs fans on a Spurs message board.

That's all.

mardigan

10-17-2007, 09:23 AM

Findog

10-17-2007, 09:27 AM

Manu still flops? Where were you last season?

Homer

samikeyp

10-17-2007, 09:30 AM

Rarely do I agree with Mav fan, but I agree with the general assesment of Brad Miller. Dude has always been a whiney bitch but you would think he would at least wait until the regular season. I mean, who whines in pre-season. Apparently Brad Miller.

Teams are trying to punk us. Golden State punked us repeatedly and our guys didn't fight back. Looks like they're not taking this shit lying down anymore. Good for them. So Howard gets suspended for one regular season game and worst-case scenario we lose it. Fine, whatever. We're winning 55+ games and getting a top four seed regardless. This team can't let teams punk them again collectively like the Warriors did. That's worth more than one regular season win.

It's preseason, who cares? The Mavs are better than the Kings regardless what happens in the pre-season. Also, I have never bought the whole "We's got disrespected so we gots ta punk tha other team so people don't see us as bitches." and do so by getting overly physical. You know the best way to get respect and punk people? Win the game. (a game that counts, not a pre-season game) The Mavs are too talented of a team to have to go the thug route and if they feel they have to, then the whispers of being mentally soft are true. I understand needing to make a statement and after the playoffs last year, Dallas needs to make one but pick your battles fellas. Go out and make noise in the regular season and playoffs. If you win, nobody can say anything. Scoreboard is the ultimate revenge.

Findog

10-17-2007, 09:31 AM

What's Brad Miller so depressed about all the time? He always looks so sad.

He got a bad haircut on his last visit to Supercuts.

samikeyp

10-17-2007, 09:32 AM

What's Brad Miller so depressed about all the time? He always looks so sad.

No shit. With as much as Tim gets crap for complaining (and rightfully so) Miller always looks like someone stole his dog.

samikeyp

10-17-2007, 09:32 AM

He got a bad haircut on his last visit to Supercuts.

:lol

FromWayDowntown

10-17-2007, 09:36 AM

I'm not the one who brought up the Allen-Bowen incident. I was just responding to the comparison that was made and your defense of Bowen. I didn't realize we couldn't comment on something peripheral to the subject of the thread.

Comment on whatever you wish, it just strikes me as a move away from the topic at hand to unearth a Bowen incident from two seasons ago that bears little similarity to the actions of Josh Howard last night. Bowen might have instigated (though we have never been told what instigated that incident) but definitely wasn't the third guy in when he mixed things up with Allen; Howard was indisputably the third guy in, despite having been about as far away from the incident as he could have been while still on the floor. I have no idea why those two situations would ever be deemed similar.

If the point is that Bowen's situation might provide precedent for punishment not including a suspension -- and it seems to me that was the point that brought Bowen into this -- I'd be interested to know how frequently a guy has been permitted to race across the floor and directly involve himself in an altercation (not counting situations where all or most of the players on the floor are in a scrum surrounding the fracas, ala Game 4 of the 2007 WCSF) and avoid a suspension for doing so.

cornbread

10-17-2007, 09:42 AM

He got a bad haircut on his last visit to Supercuts.
I would be disappointed too. How hard can be it to toss up a chili bowl?

Obstructed_View

10-17-2007, 09:49 AM

Nice to know that Josh Howard still hasn't learned how to control himself. With all the guys on that team that can be taken out of their game so easily, the league will be using that formula to beat them pretty soon.

I find it interesting that anyone would try to compare this to Bowen kicking Allen. That was the only time I recall that Bowen's ever lost his cool on the floor and retaliated. Josh has done it at least half a dozen times.

stretch

10-17-2007, 09:50 AM

Yea, hitting a guy who isnt looking takes some balls
Ditto for Bowen, kicking a guy in the back. Only difference is he has no balls to get back at Allen despite Allen coming after him. I guarantee that Howard would not have just backed off like that, and would have went right back at him.

Obstructed_View

10-17-2007, 09:52 AM

Ditto for Bowen, kicking a guy in the back. Only difference is he has no balls to get back at Allen despite Allen coming after him. I guarantee that Howard would not have just backed off like that, and would have went right back at him.
And would have gotten suspended by piling stupid on top of stupid. You should be really proud of that kind of brains, Mav fan.

stretch

10-17-2007, 09:54 AM

And would have gotten suspended by piling stupid on top of stupid. You should be really proud of that kind of brains, Mav fan.
Going back at someone does not get you suspended. Punching someone does. I never said anything about punching or hitting anyone. But letting them know you aren't a punk, and aren't going to let them punk you out is perfectly acceptable IMO.

samikeyp

10-17-2007, 09:59 AM

But letting them know you aren't a punk, and aren't going to let them punk you out is perfectly acceptable IMO.

Why does this matter? Why does it matter what someone on another team thinks of you? Josh Howard is better than just about everyone on the Kings roster....who gives a rat's ass what they or anyone else thinks? All that matters is winning...anything else is irrelevant and if you put anything else in front of that, then you are not mentally on a championship level.

stretch

10-17-2007, 10:00 AM

Why does this matter? Why does it matter what someone on another team thinks of you? Josh Howard is better than just about everyone on the Kings roster....who gives a rat's ass what they or anyone else thinks? All that matters is winning...anything else is irrelevant and if you put anything else in front of that, then you are not mentally on a championship level.
Because you can't let teams punk you, the way that Golden State punked us last year, or the Lakers used to do in the past. If team's know you are soft, they will take advantage of that.

samikeyp

10-17-2007, 10:02 AM

If you win, no one punks you.

samikeyp

10-17-2007, 10:05 AM

Spurs fans think it's so easy, just "go win" as if anybody can do it. They don't understand the whole "punking" element of basketball because they have one of the few guys in this league that has the respect of EVERYBODY. NOBODY will ever fuck with Tim Duncan, so Spurs fans don't understand some of these other mental aspects to the game.

I understand them perfectly, I just don't agree with other assessments. You are right, no one will fuck with TD but they will with others on the team and have. Those players got over it by winning the game.

stretch

10-17-2007, 10:09 AM

I understand them perfectly, I just don't agree with other assessments. You are right, no one will fuck with TD but they will with others on the team and have. Those players got over it by winning the game.
Oh well. Agree to disagree. Maybe if you played the game, you would understand the element of "punking" and how it relates to mental toughness a little more.

samikeyp

10-17-2007, 10:12 AM

I disagree big time. Nobody tries to punk the Spurs the way they try to punk the Mavericks or the Suns or the Bobcats or most any other team.

I never said the Spurs players got punked as much as others. Your implication was that it never happens to the Spurs and I say it does, although not to the same degree. You are right, they don't with the exception of Parker who gets the shit knocked out of him every time he drives the lane. You said no one fucks with TD and I agreed with you. Other teams get more of that shit because it works on them and not the Spurs which you did say and I agree with that.

CubanMustGo

10-17-2007, 10:12 AM

Oh well. Agree to disagree. Maybe if you played the game, you would understand the element of "punking" and how it relates to mental toughness a little more.

Do you play in the NBA? Do tell ... we're not talking about some fucking playground shit here.

mardigan

10-17-2007, 10:14 AM

Oh well. Agree to disagree. Maybe if you played the game, you would understand the element of "punking" and how it relates to mental toughness a little more.
Not this maybe if you had ever played shit again

RocketsDynasty

10-17-2007, 10:14 AM

Do you play in the NBA? Do tell ... we're not talking about some fucking playground shit here.
Do you play in the NBA? Do tell ... how do you know that the "fucking playground shit" doesn't apply any?

mardigan

10-17-2007, 10:15 AM

Do you play in the NBA? Do tell ... how do you know that the "fucking playground shit" doesn't apply any?
Because its not being played at a fucking playground

RocketsDynasty

10-17-2007, 10:17 AM

Because its not being played at a fucking playground
playground basketball is a mentality. And it's in the NBA. see Allen Iverson. see Tim Thomas. see Stephon Marbury. see Gilbert Arenas. and on and on and on.

Obstructed_View

10-17-2007, 10:18 AM

Going back at someone does not get you suspended. Punching someone does. I never said anything about punching or hitting anyone. But letting them know you aren't a punk, and aren't going to let them punk you out is perfectly acceptable IMO.
If this were prison, I might agree with you. It's a basketball game, genius. The point is to win, not to show who's the most manly. In that respect, Bruce Bowen shows Ray Allen he isn't a punk every time they play by being in his face for the entire game and making him work for everything he gets. Bowen takes the crying to the media, the little cheap shots and shoves, the milked injuries and the boos and has managed to win. He only lost his cool once, and that basically cost his team the game. He's not likely to ever lose it again. Welcome to championship caliber basketball. Maybe Josh will learn that someday.

Shank

10-17-2007, 10:19 AM

What's Brad Miller so depressed about all the time? He always looks so sad.

He hates being white.

mardigan

10-17-2007, 10:19 AM

Ditto for Bowen, kicking a guy in the back. Only difference is he has no balls to get back at Allen despite Allen coming after him. I guarantee that Howard would not have just backed off like that, and would have went right back at him.
Allen and Bowen have a past, and it was him dealing with Ray Allen no matter how bitch it might have been. Its compeletly different when you run all the way across the court to hit a guy in the back for bumping your teamate onto the floor in a pre-season game while he was talking to a ref

Obstructed_View

10-17-2007, 10:19 AM

Oh well. Agree to disagree. Maybe if you played the game, you would understand the element of "punking" and how it relates to mental toughness a little more.
I'd bet that you've never played anything, and spend a lot of time listening to rap, because you have a retarded and adolescent sense of competition.

RocketsDynasty

10-17-2007, 10:22 AM

I'd bet that you've never played anything, and spend a lot of time listening to rap, because you have a retarded and adolescent sense of competition.
I'm glad we've established that nobody in the NBA listens to rap.

samikeyp

10-17-2007, 10:22 AM

Oh well. Agree to disagree. Maybe if you played the game, you would understand the element of "punking" and how it relates to mental toughness a little more.

So...if someone disagrees with you...they can't have possibly played any organized sports ever and do not know anything as much as you?

I did play several sports well into high school and I understand totally the whole mental aspect. I just think that its more important to win the game then to worry about what someone on the other team thinks. Personally, I respected every opponent I faced until they gave me reason not to. If they think i'm weak, fine..that works to my advantage. Bottom line is that the team win is the most important, if they think i'm weak, but my team wins...who cares? Personal feelings are secondary to the team dynamic. Like this here, for some reason you chose to make it personal just because I disagreed with you. That is your choice. I didn't see the need to since we weren't talking about me but you have the right to post as you see fit. It doesn't bother me, made me curious, not im not hurt or upset.

My point still stands however. If (and I am not saying this is the case) Josh Howard and the Mavericks care more about what other teams think of them and make proving they are not "punks" their primary focus instead of winning a title, then they are not championship caliber. Personally, I think they are of that caliber, they are perfectly capable of winning a title and too good of a team to have to resort to being thugs.

Obstructed_View

10-17-2007, 10:23 AM

I'm glad we've established that nobody in the NBA listens to rap.
If only that were the sole requirement for being a good basketball player...

Shank

10-17-2007, 10:23 AM

If this were prison, I might agree with you. It's a basketball game, genius. The point is to win, not to show who's the most manly.

Not targeting you specifically, OV, just using your quote as it seems to be a common theme.

But if Miller had done that to Harris and all of the Mavs just stood around and watched, then they'd (still) be labeled as soft little bitches. And every fanbase would again latch onto that and use that moniker throughout the season.

I wonder if Miller had done that to Howard, who would have stuck up for him? Is Stackhouse the next in line? Maybe Howard's the only guy that will fight back. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing.

Hemotivo

10-17-2007, 10:23 AM

Video of the Howard/Miller incident :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hq0hR49nwCE

Stupidity at his best, Howard will be suspended for one or two games because of that.
thanks for the vid

maybe Josh is nervous because of the trade rumors

RocketsDynasty

10-17-2007, 10:24 AM

If only that were the sole requirement for being a good basketball player...
well listening to rap gives you a retarded and adolescent view of competition. I'd love to have a look at what's in Tim Duncan's iPod.

mardigan

10-17-2007, 10:24 AM

playground basketball is a mentality. And it's in the NBA. see Allen Iverson. see Tim Thomas. see Stephon Marbury. see Gilbert Arenas. and on and on and on.
Thats the stupidest shit Ive ever heard. A "mentality" :lol
I bet most guys in the NBA have at one point or another played a pickup game at a playground, yet you hardly ever see stupid shit like hee haw did. Playground is hard fouls, not cheap shots in the back.
And all those guys you named, when have they ever pulled some stupid shit on the court like that?

samikeyp

10-17-2007, 10:25 AM

But if Miller had done that to Harris and all of the Mavs just stood around and watched, then they'd (still) be labeled as soft little bitches. And every fanbase would again latch onto that and use that moniker throughout the season.

I agree that some opposing fan bases would do that but if the Mavs win the title, who cares what people label them?

mardigan

10-17-2007, 10:27 AM

Not targeting you specifically, OV, just using your quote as it seems to be a common theme.

But if Miller had done that to Harris and all of the Mavs just stood around and watched, then they'd (still) be labeled as soft little bitches. And every fanbase would again latch onto that and use that moniker throughout the season.

I wonder if Miller had done that to Howard, who would have stuck up for him? Is Stackhouse the next in line? Maybe Howard's the only guy that will fight back. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing.
I agree with you to an extent. I do think that someone should stand up for Harris, just not the way Howard did. Regardless of Harris flopping, players do need to stand up for him. Just not by running all the way across court and throwing an elbow at a guys back

Shank

10-17-2007, 10:28 AM

My point still stands however. If (and I am not saying this is the case) Josh Howard and the Mavericks care more about what other teams think of them and make proving they are not "punks" their primary focus instead of winning a title, then they are not championship caliber. Personally, I think they are of that caliber, they are perfectly capable of winning a title and too good of a team to have to resort to being thugs.

That, of course, is still the focus. Avery wouldn't waste his time on the court letting his team try to gain rep rather than winning.

This is likely a case of Miller being the bitch that everyone knows he is and a guy losing his cool and shoving back. Certainly there's a better way to handle it, and likely Josh will have some bullshit statement about how he's sorry. But he's not. He'd probably try it again if given the chance, but I'm sure (hopefully) he knows better than to do it when real games are on the line.

RocketsDynasty

10-17-2007, 10:28 AM

Thats the stupidest shit Ive ever heard. A "mentality" :lol
I bet most guys in the NBA have at one point or another played a pickup game at a playground, yet you hardly ever see stupid shit like hee haw did. Playground is hard fouls, not cheap shots in the back.
And all those guys you named, when have they ever pulled some stupid shit on the court like that?
If you don't understand the culture then you make obtuse posts like the above quoted. Not saying the culture is anything great or worth a damn, but it's out there and it's very much in the NBA.

samikeyp

10-17-2007, 10:30 AM

This is likely a case of Miller being the bitch that everyone knows he is

This part, we can all agree on! :lol

And I am all for sticking up for teammates, but you are right it could have been handled better. In Howard's defense though, I also understand heat of the moment.

mardigan

10-17-2007, 10:31 AM

If you don't understand the culture then you make obtuse posts like the above quoted. Not saying the culture is anything great or worth a damn, but it's out there and it's very much in the NBA.
Playground basketball isnt a culture, its a basketball played outside without refs and with less rules. And even if it is a "culture", you would think that a player would be smart enough to draw a line between the two

Obstructed_View

10-17-2007, 10:31 AM

well listening to rap gives you a retarded and adolescent view of competition. I'd love to have a look at what's in Tim Duncan's iPod.
You left out the first half of the comment, dumbass. Are you saying Tim Duncan's never played competetive sports? And why are you working so hard to try to defend Stretch, because he's as clueless as you are?

Tim Duncan's not a retarded adolescent, and he isn't making stupid comments about being punked. You are. If you were any good at basketball and worried about your reputation I could take you out of your game in a second. That's what happens to hotheads. When you have a bad temper you channel it into constructive aggression or you get people baiting you into doing something stupid.

Shank

10-17-2007, 10:32 AM

I agree that some opposing fan bases would do that but if the Mavs win the title, who cares what people label them?

Exactly. If they manage to win a title this year, this event isn't even a blip on the radar.

I think, though, that you can go back and pick out any previous champion and the word "tough" will come up when describing them. You don't necessarily have to prove it by punching dudes out on the court, but that needs to be a part of the team's chemistry and the make-up and mentality of at least a couple guys on the roster.

RocketsDynasty

10-17-2007, 10:32 AM

Playground basketball isnt a culture, its a basketball played outside without refs and with less rules. And even if it is a "culture", you would think that a player would be smart enough to draw a line between the two
that's what you would hope once they make it into the NBA.

samikeyp

10-17-2007, 10:33 AM

I think, though, that you can go back and pick out any previous champion and the word "tough" will come up when describing them. You don't necessarily have to prove it by punching dudes out on the court, but that needs to be a part of the team's chemistry and the make-up and mentality of at least a couple guys on the roster.

Good point.

I liken it to the Spurs finally won a title...the soft comments heard throughout the 90's lessened quite a bit. They came back a little until 2003 and now, the only people that use it are just uninformed.

If the Mavs win the title, that soft label will go away.

Obstructed_View

10-17-2007, 10:34 AM

This is likely a case of Miller being the bitch that everyone knows he is and a guy losing his cool and shoving back. Certainly there's a better way to handle it, and likely Josh will have some bullshit statement about how he's sorry. But he's not. He'd probably try it again if given the chance, but I'm sure (hopefully) he knows better than to do it when real games are on the line.
Miller is a bitch of the highest order, of that there is no doubt.

And you are right about Josh, too. He'll probably try to spin it as if he were curing cancer, just like when he said he was "defending himself" when he forearmed Bowen to the floor. :lol

My only complaint about Howard has ever been that he's mentally weak and can't control his temper. He's so far not showing any improvement in that area.

RocketsDynasty

10-17-2007, 10:34 AM

You left out the first half of the comment, dumbass. Are you saying Tim Duncan's never played competetive sports? And why are you working so hard to try to defend Stretch, because he's as clueless as you are?

Tim Duncan's not a retarded adolescent, and he isn't making stupid comments about being punked. You are. If you were any good at basketball and worried about your reputation I could take you out of your game in a second. That's what happens to hotheads. When you have a bad temper you channel it into constructive aggression or you get people baiting you into doing something stupid.
I wasn't making any comments about getting punked. I don't agree with what Howard did. I was just saying that you don't have to "play in the NBA" to understand the playground mentality being displayed by Josh Howard. And deny it all you want, spin it all you want, but you made the generalization that anybody with that weak mentality is some rap listening thug.

Findog

10-17-2007, 10:36 AM

I agree with you to an extent. I do think that someone should stand up for Harris, just not the way Howard did. Regardless of Harris flopping, players do need to stand up for him. Just not by running all the way across court and throwing an elbow at a guys back

I'd have a bigger problem with it if Howard had pulled that exact same stunt in a playoff game, but considering the stakes, or lack thereof, his response was fine by me.

samikeyp

10-17-2007, 10:36 AM

My only complaint about Howard has ever been that he's mentally weak and can't control his temper. He's so far not showing any improvement in that area.

Which surprises me a bit with Avery as a coach. He understands the mental toughness it takes to win it all. He is still young though so there is still time.

Obstructed_View

10-17-2007, 10:36 AM

Exactly. If they manage to win a title this year, this event isn't even a blip on the radar.

I think, though, that you can go back and pick out any previous champion and the word "tough" will come up when describing them. You don't necessarily have to prove it by punching dudes out on the court, but that needs to be a part of the team's chemistry and the make-up and mentality of at least a couple guys on the roster.
It depends on what you are known for and what you do. I knew the Spurs were going to win the '99 title when Robinson went after Joe Smith in the first round. When a guy like Robinson raises his voice, it's a good sign. When a guy like Milton Bradley does it, you say "oh, shit". Josh is in danger of falling into the latter category.

Obstructed_View

10-17-2007, 10:41 AM

I wasn't making any comments about getting punked. I don't agree with what Howard did. I was just saying that you don't have to "play in the NBA" to understand the playground mentality being displayed by Josh Howard. Then why would you be going after me when I took somebody on for disagreeing with the very point you make above? Jesus, do you read anything??

And deny it all you want, spin it all you want, but you made the generalization that anybody with that weak mentality is some rap listening thug.
Actually, I implied that the person that made the following statement:

Maybe if you played the game, you would understand the element of "punking" and how it relates to mental toughness a little more.

was a white moron from the suburbs whose idea of toughness is listneing to Dr. Dre and watching American Me.

Reading comprehension is your friend.

FromWayDowntown

10-17-2007, 10:49 AM

I disagree big time. Nobody tries to punk the Spurs the way they try to punk the Mavericks or the Suns or the Bobcats or most any other team. They know that fucking with Tim Duncan or one of his teammates is a big no-no. They know that if they try anything, they will have to pay for it. Tim Duncan is the biggest security blanket in the league (except for, maybe, Shaq), the opponent knows it and his teammates know it.

Teams don't try to punk the Spurs because they know that it doesn't work.

Get physical with the Spurs and you generally just deepen their resolve to beat you.

RocketsDynasty

10-17-2007, 10:53 AM

Then why would you be going after me when I took somebody on for disagreeing with the very point you make above? Jesus, do you read anything??

The point is I don't agree with all the idiots who immediately jumped on him saying "have you ever played in the NBA???!?!?!?!?" as if NBA players all have a different mentality than anybody else who plays basketball on a regular basis.

Actually, I implied that the person that made the following statement:

Maybe if you played the game, you would understand the element of "punking" and how it relates to mental toughness a little more.

was a white moron from the suburbs whose idea of toughness is listneing to Dr. Dre and watching American Me.

Reading comprehension is your friend.

And I'm saying that he's right in thinking that many NBA players have the mentality and understanding of "punking". Never said that it was right, I just said that it was out there. YOU brought up rap music and such.

P.S. What the Fuck does being white have to do with anything? You sound like such a fucking moron to go bringing shit like that into it.

1Parker1

10-17-2007, 10:55 AM

I don't get some Mavs posters in this thread. They manage to turn this incident into any and all comparisons to the Spurs somehow when it has no simliarities whatsoever. They also try to justify what their player did by putting the blame on someone else completely (i.e Brad Miller). And they're trying to justify saying it was good Howard did this so it shows he defends his teammates and people cant mess with the Mavs? This is so illogical it's almost funny.

Result of Howard's inability to control himself yet again: Most likely get suspended for the first game or two of the season, possibly costing the Mavs a game in the Loss column. Proving once again to the rest of the league that they way to beat the Mavs is to make them anger them and make them lose their poise...which apparently is still easy to do.

This is a preseason game, there was no reason for this to happen and there was no reason for Avery to play Dirk and Co so many starter like minutes (38 min?!??!).

stretch

10-17-2007, 10:58 AM

If this were prison, I might agree with you. It's a basketball game, genius. The point is to win, not to show who's the most manly. In that respect, Bruce Bowen shows Ray Allen he isn't a punk every time they play by being in his face for the entire game and making him work for everything he gets. Bowen takes the crying to the media, the little cheap shots and shoves, the milked injuries and the boos and has managed to win. He only lost his cool once, and that basically cost his team the game. He's not likely to ever lose it again. Welcome to championship caliber basketball. Maybe Josh will learn that someday.
I'm not saying that the point is to show who is most manly. But people that take shit, always lose in the end. Show me one championship winning team in NBA history that would take shit from anyone, and not do anything about it. There is not a single team that would. Tim Duncan definitely won't let other people fuck with his team. Again, I'm not saying anything about hitting people or anything like that. But just letting them know you aren't going to just take it up the ass from them. And there is proof that it can make the difference between being a great team, and a championship winning team. We have the 90's Bulls to look at, and their rivalry with the Pistons. They took all kinds of shit, but finally, the year that they all grew a pair, they demolished the Pistons. And the Pistons even knew, and had admitted previously that the Bulls were the better team, but mentally, they were too soft, and would take advantage of that.

I think you keep misunderstanding me, thinking that I'm talking about hitting people or doing crazy stuff to show people not to fuck with you. If you actually read what I had said, I said that it was not smart of Howard to push him like that, even though Miller totally deserved it. But it was nice not to see the Mavericks just take shit from people like they used to.

spurs_fan_in_exile

10-17-2007, 10:59 AM

I'd have a bigger problem with it if Howard had pulled that exact same stunt in a playoff game, but considering the stakes, or lack thereof, his response was fine by me.
I think the environment it happened in would make me worry more. He loses his cool like that in a preseason game I'd worry a hell of a lot more about what happens in a playoff environment where everything will be more physical and the adrenaline and emotions naturally run a bit higher.

Prior to J-Ho hitting Miller from behind I was actually kind of impressed with what I saw. Harris took a cheap shot (he flopped like he was in an episode of The Power Rangers, but that's nothing new) and then got in the face of a guy about twice his size. Even if said guy was a top notch pusswad like Miller that takes some guts. I wouldn't have thought the Mavs got punked in that equation if they had just broken the two of them up.

If anything, stunts like what Howard pulled will only encourage cheap shots against his teammates if they think they can get a reaction out of him.

lefty

10-17-2007, 11:01 AM

"Mavs are soft!"

"Mavs are too thuggish for their own good."

Pick a lane please.

I'll pick the 1st one

stretch

10-17-2007, 11:01 AM

I'd bet that you've never played anything, and spend a lot of time listening to rap, because you have a retarded and adolescent sense of competition.
Not sure what listening to rap has to do with anything... But I play quite a bit of basketball too, and one thing is for sure... people don't ever want to pick up someone that is soft as nails, takes crap, doesn't mind losing to keep peace, and doesn't use opponents trash talking and "punking" as motivation.

stretch

10-17-2007, 11:03 AM

So...if someone disagrees with you...they can't have possibly played any organized sports ever and do not know anything as much as you?

I did play several sports well into high school and I understand totally the whole mental aspect. I just think that its more important to win the game then to worry about what someone on the other team thinks. Personally, I respected every opponent I faced until they gave me reason not to. If they think i'm weak, fine..that works to my advantage. Bottom line is that the team win is the most important, if they think i'm weak, but my team wins...who cares? Personal feelings are secondary to the team dynamic. Like this here, for some reason you chose to make it personal just because I disagreed with you. That is your choice. I didn't see the need to since we weren't talking about me but you have the right to post as you see fit. It doesn't bother me, made me curious, not im not hurt or upset.

My point still stands however. If (and I am not saying this is the case) Josh Howard and the Mavericks care more about what other teams think of them and make proving they are not "punks" their primary focus instead of winning a title, then they are not championship caliber. Personally, I think they are of that caliber, they are perfectly capable of winning a title and too good of a team to have to resort to being thugs.
I agree completely that the win is what is most important. But again... like I said... soft guys NEVER WIN. EVER. You have to be tough-minded to be able to win games.

And I wasn't making it personal. But basically you were saying that there is no aspect of mental-toughness in winning, and that you can let people fuck with you, and win games, when in reality, that is the farthest thing from the truth. I was saying that anyone that really plays basketball, knows that the soft guys always finish last.

samikeyp

10-17-2007, 11:04 AM

I agree completely that the win is what is most important. But again... like I said... soft guys NEVER WIN. EVER. You have to be tough-minded to be able to win games.

I agree totally. You can't be soft and survive in pro sports.

ambchang

10-17-2007, 11:08 AM

The best way to prove one's toughness is to loss one's cool, act irrationally, and lose sight of the real goal. Immediate reaction without weighing consequences is the way to go!

stretch

10-17-2007, 11:08 AM

I agree that some opposing fan bases would do that but if the Mavs win the title, who cares what people label them?
It's harder to win a title when no one has respect for you, and treats you like bitches too, the way that the Warriors did. IMO, success in Basketball has MUCH more to do with your mentality, than it does your skill and talent. Thats why Tim Duncan is easily the greatest PF of all time. He definitely is not as talented as guys like Dirk, or Garnett, but mentally, he is above and beyond any PF, and just about any player aside from Jordan in NBA history. Kobe is more gifted and talented than Jordan, but isn't even close to his level... why? Because of his mentality.

mardigan

10-17-2007, 11:09 AM

I agree completely that the win is what is most important. But again... like I said... soft guys NEVER WIN. EVER. You have to be tough-minded to be able to win games.

And I wasn't making it personal. But basically you were saying that there is no aspect of mental-toughness in winning, and that you can let people fuck with you, and win games, when in reality, that is the farthest thing from the truth. I was saying that anyone that really plays basketball, knows that the soft guys always finish last.
Maybe in pick up ball, where ther are less rules, no fouls and that guy who always throws elbows when he rebounds, but in the NBA you have to be smart and let the refs handle shit like that. Harris stood up to Miller, I dont know what else Howard was trying to prove

stretch

10-17-2007, 11:09 AM

The best way to prove one's toughness is to loss one's cool, act irrationally, and lose sight of the real goal. Immediate reaction without weighing consequences is the way to go!
No one here said anything close to that. In fact, pretty much everyone here said it was not a smart move by Howard to react that way. So the smartass post was basically for naught.

ambchang

10-17-2007, 11:11 AM

Soft is an absolutely meaningless label that is arbitrarily posted on people. The Spurs were labelled soft before 99. Robinson carried the soft label with him despite being a league leader in blocks and rebounds (how many time do you see soft players leading the league in rebounds) and dunks, drives into lanes and gets hacked repeatedly, defended a man 100lbs heavier than him with a floating particle in his back.
And yet a "tough guy" like Shaq misses significant amount of time every year, got destroyed by Barkley in a fight, and attacked Brad Miller after Charles Oakley whacked him.
People simply react to the surface and label whether somebody is soft or tough (the guy growls after a dunk, must be a tough guy).

stretch

10-17-2007, 11:12 AM

Maybe in pick up ball, where ther are less rules, no fouls and that guy who always throws elbows when he rebounds, but in the NBA you have to be smart and let the refs handle shit like that. Harris stood up to Miller, I dont know what else Howard was trying to prove
If you read my posts, again, you would see that I did not condone what Howard did. Getting upset over Miller's cheapshot and telling him to fuck off and don't do it again is perfectly fine, and that is exactly what Howard should have limited it to. Tim Duncan would do the exact same thing if someone did that to Parker.

stretch

10-17-2007, 11:13 AM

mardigan

10-17-2007, 11:15 AM

If you read my posts, again, you would see that I did not condone what Howard did. Getting upset over Miller's cheapshot and telling him to fuck off and don't do it again is perfectly fine, and that is exactly what Howard should have limited it to. Tim Duncan would do the exact same thing if someone did that to Parker.
And I dont know where you got the idea that I ever thought you agreed with what he did

stretch

10-17-2007, 11:26 AM

And I dont know where you got the idea that I ever thought you agreed with what he did
Okay, then what was the point of that previous post? I said that I didn't agree with Howard's actions, and I said that mental-toughness means you can't let people know they can fuck with you. Then you basically said "maybe in pick up ball, but the NBA is different, and Howard was out of line."

Okay... so I had already aknowledged that the NBA is different, and that is why he should have acted differently. So I really didn't get the point of that post, just to tell me something I had already stated a number of times.

mavs>spurs2

10-17-2007, 11:27 AM

I think we've all learned a valuable lesson from this..

Brad Miller is a fucking pussy

ambchang

10-17-2007, 11:29 AM

No one here said anything close to that. In fact, pretty much everyone here said it was not a smart move by Howard to react that way. So the smartass post was basically for naught.

On the contrary, everything prior to Page 3 of this thread suggest otherwise. In fact, there is indication that not only were people saying that it was not a smart move by Howard, there were people condoning Howard's action:

Punking Brad Miller in order to stick up for a teammate is well worth sitting out one regular season game, or 2-3 at the worst.

Teams are trying to punk us. Golden State punked us repeatedly and our guys didn't fight back. Looks like they're not taking this shit lying down anymore. Good for them. So Howard gets suspended for one regular season game and worst-case scenario we lose it. Fine, whatever. We're winning 55+ games and getting a top four seed regardless. This team can't let teams punk them again collectively like the Warriors did. That's worth more than one regular season win.

Props to Howard for punking his ass...I would have done the same. Fuck all you haters...gotta stick up for eachother.

I never said anything about punching or hitting anyone. But letting them know you aren't a punk, and aren't going to let them punk you out is perfectly acceptable IMO.

Because you can't let teams punk you, the way that Golden State punked us last year, or the Lakers used to do in the past. If team's know you are soft, they will take advantage of that.

Oh well. Agree to disagree. Maybe if you played the game, you would understand the element of "punking" and how it relates to mental toughness a little more.

But if Miller had done that to Harris and all of the Mavs just stood around and watched, then they'd (still) be labeled as soft little bitches. And every fanbase would again latch onto that and use that moniker throughout the season.

ambchang

10-17-2007, 11:30 AM

You really don't know what the fuck you are talking about, do you?
Perhaps you can enlighten me with which ones of the incidents I stated was indeed false?
Your response is vague and provides nothing of value or any facts, or even opinions, to backup your lone statement.

Shank

10-17-2007, 11:34 AM

Ooooh...it's like an e-duel.

stretch

10-17-2007, 11:36 AM

On the contrary, everything prior to Page 3 of this thread suggest otherwise. In fact, there is indication that not only were people saying that it was not a smart move by Howard, there were people condoning Howard's action:
Findawg was the only one that said that he condoned it. Amarelooms doesn't count. He's not even a Mavs fan, and is a fuckin moron. And I don't get why you used my quotes, considering not once did I ever say it was okay to react the way he did. Letting people know that they cant punk you can happen in more ways than just shoving or hitting someone.

Way to pick and choose other people's words for your arguement. Go back and read mine and Shanks posts, and you will see how the quotes you used did not back your argument whatsoever.

ambchang

10-17-2007, 11:39 AM

Findawg was the only one that said that he condoned it. Amarelooms doesn't count. He's not even a Mavs fan, and is a fuckin moron. And I don't get why you used my quotes, considering not once did I ever say it was okay to react the way he did. Letting people know that they cant punk you can happen in more ways than just shoving or hitting someone.

No one here said anything close to that. In fact, pretty much everyone here said it was not a smart move by Howard to react that way. So the smartass post was basically for naught.

So what exactly does "No one" means? If Findawg is the only one who condoned it, why is it "No one"? Why would Amarelooms not count even he is not a Mavs fan? Are non-Mavs fans sub-humans? Should we outsiders not be counted at all?

Finally:

But letting them know you aren't a punk, and aren't going to let them punk you out is perfectly acceptable IMO.
You would say what Howard did was stupid, but perfectly acceptable all at the same time?

stretch

10-17-2007, 11:41 AM

Perhaps you can enlighten me with which ones of the incidents I stated was indeed false?
Your response is vague and provides nothing of value or any facts, or even opinions, to backup your lone statement.
Because we arent talking about being a great player that has tons of blocks, dunks, and rebounds as being tough. Being physically tough and mentally tough are two different things. People would be a lot more willing to fuck with Robinson, than they would Shaq.

Growling after dunks does not make you tough. Duncan is a hell of a lot more tough-minded than Garnett. Anyone with a brain knows that, despite Garnett's intimidating personality and look. I don't think anyone that knows what they are talking about would say that someone who growls after a dunk means they are tough.

Humble Billy Hayes

10-17-2007, 11:42 AM

You would say what Howard did was stupid, but perfectly acceptable all at the same time?
How about "his intentions were good but he went about it completely wrong"? Happy now Spurfan?

Findog

10-17-2007, 11:45 AM

You really don't know what the fuck you are talking about, do you?

I'm actually with ambchang on this. Dirk has a rep as a soft choker, and this guy plays on sprained ankles all year long, he get his teeth knocked out by Karl Malone and get his ass back up, he never complains and he's soft because his back to the basket post game is mediocre or worse. "Soft" is almost always subjective.

I just feel like if you're going to take a cheap shot at somebody who is picking on one of your teammates far beneath his size, do it in a preseason game. I'd be more upset and concerned if Josh pulled this in the playoffs.

stretch

10-17-2007, 11:45 AM

So what exactly does "No one" means? If Findawg is the only one who condoned it, why is it "No one"? Why would Amarelooms not count even he is not a Mavs fan? Are non-Mavs fans sub-humans? Should we outsiders not be counted at all?

Finally:

You would say what Howard did was stupid, but perfectly acceptable all at the same time?
Okay, the use of "no one" was a poor choice of words, although you should have known what I meant by the very next statement when I said "pretty much everyone here said it was not a smart move by Howard." But I'm not going to go any further into that, since I did misuse the word in the first place, and that you love to pick and choose what you quote, kind of like you did with your last quote here. There is more than one way to not let people fuck with you. Howard chose to do it in a way that I don't condone. I said in a number of other posts, the way in which I feel he should have reacted. You need to cut that "pick and choose" shit out man. Thats fucking retarded.

stretch

10-17-2007, 11:48 AM

I'm actually with ambchang on this. Dirk has a rep as a soft choker, and this guy plays on sprained ankles all year long, he get his teeth knocked out by Karl Malone and get his ass back up, he never complains and he's soft because his back to the basket post game is mediocre or worse. "Soft" is almost always subjective.

I just feel like if you're going to take a cheap shot at somebody who is picking on one of your teammates far beneath his size, do it in a preseason game. I'd be more upset and concerned if Josh pulled this in the playoffs.
Like I said... this whole conversation was about MENTAL toughness... NOT PHYSICAL toughness. Those are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS.

You mean to tell me, that as a Mavericks fan, that you don't believe that Dirk can be a soft choker? You mean to tell me that when people give him that label, that they have no reason to give it to him whatsoever? Come on now... I'm a Mavs fan too, but I understand completely why people say that, and it is true so far. Personally, I think he will soon get over the hump, but for now, its fitting.

Findog

10-17-2007, 11:49 AM

I think the environment it happened in would make me worry more. He loses his cool like that in a preseason game I'd worry a hell of a lot more about what happens in a playoff environment where everything will be more physical and the adrenaline and emotions naturally run a bit higher.

We'll see. Howard is not a dummy. If you're gonna get a satisfying shot in, this is the time to do it. Of course, we won't be seeing Sacramento in the playoffs. Nobody else will, for that matter, but that's another thread.

The Franchise

10-17-2007, 11:49 AM

A whole five pages for this huh.

Humble Billy Hayes

10-17-2007, 11:50 AM

A whole five pages for this huh.
You're really helping things.

Findog

10-17-2007, 11:54 AM

Like I said... this whole conversation was about MENTAL toughness... NOT PHYSICAL toughness. Those are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS.

You mean to tell me, that as a Mavericks fan, that you don't believe that Dirk can be a soft choker? You mean to tell me that when people give him that label, that they have no reason to give it to him whatsoever? Come on now... I'm a Mavs fan too, but I understand completely why people say that, and it is true so far. Personally, I think he will soon get over the hump, but for now, its fitting.

I think there's a grain of truth to it, but I also feel like it's blown out of proportion. He has this extreme anti-clutch reputation, but that ignores his playoff successes. It's far more accurate to say he has a checkered playoff resume.

Some guys are just whipping boys for writers and opposing fans. For instance, Steve Nash can't beat the Spurs to save his life, he hasn't made a Finals, he hasn't played all that well in some of the games his Mavs and Suns teams have been eliminated, and yet excuses are made for him constantly, i.e. his young, talented albeit immature teammates are "wasting" his "championship window." And Dirk is a good character guy, so I don't understand the venom thrown his way compared to some other selfish guys without nearly the same amount of scalps on the wall. I wonder if it has to do with Cuban's loudmouth persona and if that fosters resentment towards his team.

Viva Las Espuelas

10-17-2007, 11:55 AM

What's Brad Miller so depressed about all the time? He always looks so sad.have you seen the name of the team on his jersey?

stretch

10-17-2007, 12:03 PM

I think there's a grain of truth to it, but I also feel like it's blown out of proportion. He has this extreme anti-clutch reputation, but that ignores his playoff successes. It's far more accurate to say he has a checkered playoff resume.

Some guys are just whipping boys for writers and opposing fans. For instance, Steve Nash can't beat the Spurs to save his life, he hasn't made a Finals, he hasn't played all that well in some of the games his Mavs and Suns teams have been eliminated, and yet excuses are made for him constantly, i.e. his young, talented albeit immature teammates are "wasting" his "championship window." And Dirk is a good character guy, so I don't understand the venom thrown his way compared to some other selfish guys without nearly the same amount of scalps on the wall. I wonder if it has to do with Cuban's loudmouth persona and if that fosters resentment towards his team.
Oh I agree that the criticism of Dirk is way too harsh. He has done plenty in his career, a lot more than plenty of other players who never get criticized, such as Nash like you mentioned. Dirk has won an MVP, led a team to 60 wins 3 times already, gotten to the finals and two conference championship games, made a number of clutch buckets, game winning shots, and memorable performances in the playoffs. Statistically, he is as solid as anyone we have seen. I really don't see why he gets such a minimal amount of praise, despite some of the poor performances that he has had, although just about every great player has had poor performances and poor series' from time to time.

Findog

10-17-2007, 12:07 PM

Oh I agree that the criticism of Dirk is way too harsh. He has done plenty in his career, a lot more than plenty of other players who never get criticized, such as Nash like you mentioned. Dirk has won an MVP, led a team to 60 wins 3 times already, gotten to the finals and two conference championship games, made a number of clutch buckets, game winning shots, and memorable performances in the playoffs. Statistically, he is as solid as anyone we have seen. I really don't see why he gets such a minimal amount of praise, despite some of the poor performances that he has had, although just about every great player has had poor performances and poor series' from time to time.

I really think it's Cuban. I laugh everytime his Andy Kaufman routine goes over the heads of Spurs fans. He's playing a heel, folks.

Fillmoe

10-17-2007, 12:08 PM

aint no denying i make classic threads..... kori really needs to hand over like 10 crowns... FUCK A SPUR!

Findog

10-17-2007, 12:12 PM

aint no denying i make classic threads..... kori really needs to hand over like 10 crowns... FUCK A SPUR!

All hail the Sacramento Queefs!

Fillmoe

10-17-2007, 12:22 PM

All hail the Sacramento Queefs!

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/480/pg2wjackson275qm7.jpg

Findog

10-17-2007, 12:25 PM

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/480/pg2wjackson275qm7.jpg

That's not your wife, that's your mistress.

Fillmoe

10-17-2007, 12:27 PM

8 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1

Fillmoe

10-17-2007, 12:27 PM

That's not your wife, that's your mistress.

Sometimes the mistress gives better head.

Obstructed_View

10-17-2007, 12:28 PM

I'm not saying that the point is to show who is most manly. But people that take shit, always lose in the end. Show me one championship winning team in NBA history that would take shit from anyone, and not do anything about it. There is not a single team that would. Tim Duncan definitely won't let other people fuck with his team. Again, I'm not saying anything about hitting people or anything like that. But just letting them know you aren't going to just take it up the ass from them. And there is proof that it can make the difference between being a great team, and a championship winning team. We have the 90's Bulls to look at, and their rivalry with the Pistons. They took all kinds of shit, but finally, the year that they all grew a pair, they demolished the Pistons. And the Pistons even knew, and had admitted previously that the Bulls were the better team, but mentally, they were too soft, and would take advantage of that.

I think you keep misunderstanding me, thinking that I'm talking about hitting people or doing crazy stuff to show people not to fuck with you. If you actually read what I had said, I said that it was not smart of Howard to push him like that, even though Miller totally deserved it. But it was nice not to see the Mavericks just take shit from people like they used to.

When did Tim Duncan run up behind someone and throw a forearm into them again? When has Manu ever retaliated?

Some of you guys are fucking brain damaged.

Obstructed_View

10-17-2007, 12:29 PM

And I'm saying that he's right in thinking that many NBA players have the mentality and understanding of "punking". Never said that it was right, I just said that it was out there. YOU brought up rap music and such.
Any implication that it correlates in any way with winning would be completely wrong. Look at history.

P.S. What the Fuck does being white have to do with anything? You sound like such a fucking moron to go bringing shit like that into it.
Sorry, balla. Did the wigger implication hit too close to home? :lol

ambchang

10-17-2007, 12:31 PM

Because we arent talking about being a great player that has tons of blocks, dunks, and rebounds as being tough. Being physically tough and mentally tough are two different things. People would be a lot more willing to fuck with Robinson, than they would Shaq.

Growling after dunks does not make you tough. Duncan is a hell of a lot more tough-minded than Garnett. Anyone with a brain knows that, despite Garnett's intimidating personality and look. I don't think anyone that knows what they are talking about would say that someone who growls after a dunk means they are tough.

Are you implying Robinson is mentally soft compared to Shaq? Was Shaq not involved in more fights, lost it and sworn on national TV? When has Robinson lost his mind? When has Robinson been physically or mentally intimidated into subpar performance?

And the growling after dunk comment was making fun of people who label people soft, was that not too obvious?

samikeyp

10-17-2007, 12:32 PM

I really think it's Cuban. I laugh everytime his Andy Kaufman routine goes over the heads of Spurs fans. He's playing a heel, folks.

You're assuming some of us haven't already figured that out. :)

ambchang

10-17-2007, 12:33 PM

How about "his intentions were good but he went about it completely wrong"? Happy now Spurfan?
So losing it and risking getting suspended over nothing is good intentions. I have learned so much about what is mentally tough in this thread. How have times changed, I thought I travelled back to the stone ages.

stretch

10-17-2007, 12:33 PM

When did Tim Duncan run up behind someone and throw a forearm into them again? When has Manu ever retaliated?

Some of you guys are fucking brain damaged.
Dude, read ALL of my posts, then make your reply. I never once said that he would react like that. But he would make it known, that you don't fuck with his guys, but in a slightly more respectful manner than shoving or hitting someone. But Duncan isn't afraid to voice his displeasure with someone if they cross the line, or use opponent's trash talking as motivation to pick his game up. Thats what I said about 100 times that Howard SHOULD have done.

I think it is you that is brain damaged. You can't even fuckin read.

Humble Billy Hayes

10-17-2007, 12:35 PM

So losing it and risking getting suspended over nothing is good intentions. I have learned so much about what is mentally tough in this thread. How have times changed, I thought I travelled back to the stone ages.
No, sticking up for your teammates and not letting opponents punk you is the good intentions. losing it and risking getting suspended was all wrong. if you're going to do this strawman bullshit then just leave the discussion to people who aren't going to be dicks about it.

samikeyp

10-17-2007, 12:35 PM

Just because someone says a player is soft, doesn't make it so.

I would argue that there are times that it takes more mental toughness not to retaliate. There are situations when the opponent is trying to take you out of your game by trying to start shit with you and if you respond with shit....he's got you. If you don't, he doesnt.

Like I said earlier...I have never bought the "soft" label in the NBA. To be successful at the NBA level takes an incredible amount of mental and physical toughness. I don't root for Nowitzki but to call a guy who has hit as many clutch shots he has and won the MVP soft, IMO, is ignorant.

ambchang

10-17-2007, 12:38 PM

Okay, the use of "no one" was a poor choice of words, although you should have known what I meant by the very next statement when I said "pretty much everyone here said it was not a smart move by Howard." But I'm not going to go any further into that, since I did misuse the word in the first place, and that you love to pick and choose what you quote, kind of like you did with your last quote here. There is more than one way to not let people fuck with you. Howard chose to do it in a way that I don't condone. I said in a number of other posts, the way in which I feel he should have reacted. You need to cut that "pick and choose" shit out man. Thats fucking retarded.

But my point is that several people (mostly people I thought wereMavs fans) have condoned Howard's actions. it's nothing extraordinary, if in a preseason game, Duncan lost it and started to shove some guy's neck, I can pretty much guarantee half the board would be saying what Duncan did was acceptable, or even commendable.
And I read what I read, there was a sudden change in attitude between pages 3 and 4 of this thread, before, it was all "Howard did was OK", then there starts to have doubts about his actions when emotions calmed down. Again, nothing unique.

Obstructed_View

10-17-2007, 12:38 PM

Not sure what listening to rap has to do with anything... But I play quite a bit of basketball too, and one thing is for sure... people don't ever want to pick up someone that is soft as nails, takes crap, doesn't mind losing to keep peace, and doesn't use opponents trash talking and "punking" as motivation.
But running up and hitting a guy from behind, especially in a preseason game just makes you a hothead. It doesn't erase any other deficiencies in a guy's game. Josh Howard is a really good player, but what he did is proof that he's mentally weak, not that he's mentally strong.

stretch

10-17-2007, 12:40 PM

Are you implying Robinson is mentally soft compared to Shaq? Was Shaq not involved in more fights, lost it and sworn on national TV? When has Robinson lost his mind? When has Robinson been physically or mentally intimidated into subpar performance?

And the growling after dunk comment was making fun of people who label people soft, was that not too obvious?
I never once said anything about Robinson being soft compared to Shaq. I just said that tons of blocks, rebounds, and taking hard fouls have little-to-nothing to do with being mentally strong. In fact, I agree that it was ridiculous for people to bash on him, they way they did, much like I think it's ridiculous for people to bash on Dirk the way they do, even though by track history, I could understand why, despite it being unfair criticism.

However, I will say that I do believe Shaq was mentally tougher. He wouldn't let no one fuck with him, thus giving him a mental edge on opponents. He intimidated people a lot more than Robinson did. That's part of the reason hes a greater center than Robinson was. Thats a big reason why he was so great, period. He had a very intimidating appearance and mentality. And everyone knew he wouldn't take crap, and if you tried to fuck with him, he would make you pay dearly, typically with a couple monster dunks right over their head.

ambchang

10-17-2007, 12:40 PM

ponky

10-17-2007, 12:43 PM

LOL, i miss u fillmoe.....it was those cornrows on brad miller that sent jho over the edge!

ambchang

10-17-2007, 12:44 PM

No, sticking up for your teammates and not letting opponents punk you is the good intentions. losing it and risking getting suspended was all wrong. if you're going to do this strawman bullshit then just leave the discussion to people who aren't going to be dicks about it.
But in this situation, it is exactly the same thing. He stuck up for his teammates by losing it and risking suspension. Where is the strawman?

samikeyp

10-17-2007, 12:45 PM

IMO, Shaq is the exception. I don't think he was very mentally tough...but he didn't have to be. He was so physically imposing and intimidating, he did what he wanted and no one could stop him. He was huge yet amazingly nimble for that size. (when he was in shape. :) )He was the kind of player physically that we never saw before and will probably never see again.

samikeyp

10-17-2007, 12:45 PM

Holy crap! A ponky sighting! :tu

stretch

10-17-2007, 12:46 PM

But running up and hitting a guy from behind, especially in a preseason game just makes you a hothead. It doesn't erase any other deficiencies in a guy's game. Josh Howard is a really good player, but what he did is proof that he's mentally weak, not that he's mentally strong.
Again, I never said it makes him mentally strong. I just said that it shows he isn't willing to take crap, which goes into being mentally strong, although he showed a weakness by overreacting to show that he won't take crap.

Obstructed_View

10-17-2007, 12:47 PM

Dude, read ALL of my posts, then make your reply. I never once said that he would react like that. But he would make it known, that you don't fuck with his guys, but in a slightly more respectful manner than
shoving or hitting someone. But Duncan isn't afraid to voice his displeasure with someone if they cross the line, or use opponent's trash talking as motivation to pick his game up. Thats what I said about 100 times that Howard SHOULD have done.

I think it is you that is brain damaged. You can't even fuckin read.

You said this:

Show me one championship winning team in NBA history that would take shit from anyone, and not do anything about it.
The Spurs took lots of hits from guys over the years and they allowed the officials to take care of it. The only time I ever remember anyone talking about it was when Juwan Howard took out Derek Anderson and then hard fouled Malik Rose a game or two later. The rest of the time they just go to the line and take their shots, huddle up and go play as a team. I guess Amare and Diaw showed toughness. Did them a lot of good, huh?

Howard's never been afraid to voice his displeasure with anything. Ever. What he did doesn't signal a change in attitude of his team one iota. It just shows continued mental weakness by a guy who has a long history of undermining his great talent with meathead decisions.

ambchang

10-17-2007, 12:47 PM

I never once said anything about Robinson being soft compared to Shaq. I just said that tons of blocks, rebounds, and taking hard fouls have little-to-nothing to do with being mentally strong. In fact, I agree that it was ridiculous for people to bash on him, they way they did, much like I think it's ridiculous for people to bash on Dirk the way they do, even though by track history, I could understand why, despite it being unfair criticism.

However, I will say that I do believe Shaq was mentally tougher. He wouldn't let no one fuck with him, thus giving him a mental edge on opponents. He intimidated people a lot more than Robinson did. That's part of the reason hes a greater center than Robinson was. Thats a big reason why he was so great, period. He had a very intimidating appearance and mentality. And everyone knew he wouldn't take crap, and if you tried to fuck with him, he would make you pay dearly, typically with a couple monster dunks right over their head.

If you think Shaq is mentally tough and ignored the number of times he totally lost it due to officiating, or hiting Alvin Robertson in the head after arguing with Laimbeer, or swinging for Brad Miller after he got fouled hard by Oakley, that is fine.

And yet I failed to find one single incident where Robinson's performance suffered due to being mentally intimidated.

stretch

10-17-2007, 12:47 PM

Which brings the question of how Howard's action would help the Mavericks shed the mentally soft label? Would it not even further strengthen that label?
There is a difference between mentally soft, and mentally dumb. That was not soft by any means. It was dumb by all means.

Obstructed_View

10-17-2007, 12:48 PM

Again, I never said it makes him mentally strong. I just said that it shows he isn't willing to take crap, which goes into being mentally strong, although he showed a weakness by overreacting to show that he won't take crap.
My last try: Josh has NEVER been willing to take crap, even to the detriment of the team. There's nothing commendable about what he did, and there's nothing tough, mentally or physically, by running up to a big pussy like Miller and hitting him from behind before anybody can separate you, and you should know that if you are a Mavs fan that wants his team to win rather than a blind defender of all things Maverick.

ambchang

10-17-2007, 12:50 PM

There is a difference between mentally soft, and mentally dumb. That was not soft by any means. It was dumb by all means.
To me, when Howard could be taken off his game and commit stupid acts, that signals mental softness (as in exposing your emotions and allowing it to negatively influencing your game).

stretch

10-17-2007, 12:51 PM

You said this:

The Spurs took lots of hits from guys over the years and they allowed the officials to take care of it. The only time I ever remember anyone talking about it was when Juwan Howard took out Derek Anderson and then hard fouled Malik Rose a game or two later. The rest of the time they just go to the line and take their shots, huddle up and go play as a team. I guess Amare and Diaw showed toughness. Did them a lot of good, huh?

Howard's never been afraid to voice his displeasure with anything. Ever. What he did doesn't signal a change in attitude of his team one iota. It just shows continued mental weakness by a guy who has a long history of undermining his great talent with meathead decisions.
Also read other posts by me, saying that you can also make it obvious that you won't take crap by using it as motivation. Some guys back down, and don't really play any harder when people talk crap. Others like Duncan, step it up. And there were also plenty of times when the Spurs took hits from people, and they very clearly voiced their displeasure.

Findog

10-17-2007, 12:51 PM

Sometimes the mistress gives better head.

:lol

Okay, that made me laugh. I got nothing to say back to that.

samikeyp

10-17-2007, 12:51 PM

Again, I never said it makes him mentally strong. I just said that it shows he isn't willing to take crap, which goes into being mentally strong, although he showed a weakness by overreacting to show that he won't take crap.

Sounds like its more of a judgement issue. He's young and apparently still lets his emotions affect his judgement. That is something that can be learned in time though.

stretch

10-17-2007, 12:54 PM

If you think Shaq is mentally tough and ignored the number of times he totally lost it due to officiating, or hiting Alvin Robertson in the head after arguing with Laimbeer, or swinging for Brad Miller after he got fouled hard by Oakley, that is fine.

And yet I failed to find one single incident where Robinson's performance suffered due to being mentally intimidated.
Again, mentally dumb and mentally soft are different things. Shaq I felt was mentally tough, but was also at times, very mentally dumb.

And I never said Robinson suffered due to being intimidated. I just said that Shaq had a tougher basketball mentality. Robinson was great. No question about it. He had an MVP, and 2 rings, and is one of the greatest players in NBA history, and a future HOF. So what are you complaining for?

stretch

10-17-2007, 12:55 PM

My last try: Josh has NEVER been willing to take crap, even to the detriment of the team. There's nothing commendable about what he did, and there's nothing tough, mentally or physically, by running up to a big pussy like Miller and hitting him from behind before anybody can separate you, and you should know that if you are a Mavs fan that wants his team to win rather than a blind defender of all things Maverick.
And I never said once that it was commendable. I felt that it was very dumb. But I'd rather him shove someone that acts like a bitch, as opposed to him tucking his tail between his legs, and doing nothing at all, whether in the moment, or in the game.

Findog

10-17-2007, 12:55 PM

My last try: Josh has NEVER been willing to take crap, even to the detriment of the team. There's nothing commendable about what he did, and there's nothing tough, mentally or physically, by running up to a big pussy like Miller and hitting him from behind before anybody can separate you, and you should know that if you are a Mavs fan that wants his team to win rather than a blind defender of all things Maverick.

Is it really so likely that he pulls something like this late in the fourth quarter of a tie game during Game 5 of the 2008 Western Conference Finals against Bruce Bowen? Josh is hotheaded, no doubt. Stupid? Not a chance. This may not have been about losing one's shit but galvanizing teammates by letting them know you'll jump into a foxhole with them and have their back. Again: IT WAS A PRESEASON GAME. I will bump this thread and eat crow if he pulls this shit again in May.

stretch

10-17-2007, 12:56 PM

To me, when Howard could be taken off his game and commit stupid acts, that signals mental softness (as in exposing your emotions and allowing it to negatively influencing your game).
Well, thats your opinion. I feel that it isn't a sign of softness. It's a sign of dumbness.

stretch

10-17-2007, 12:57 PM

Sounds like its more of a judgement issue. He's young and apparently still lets his emotions affect his judgement. That is something that can be learned in time though.
Agreed. But I'd rather have that emotion and fire in a player, as opposed to someone that just doesnt give a shit, or do shit, no matter what happens, like Erick Dampier. He a very classy guy, has the ability to be a very good center, but he doesn't do shit ever.

samikeyp

10-17-2007, 01:00 PM

Agreed. But I'd rather have that emotion and fire in a player, as opposed to someone that just doesnt give a shit, or do shit, no matter what happens, like Erick Dampier. He a very classy guy, has the ability to be a very good center, but he doesn't do shit ever

Emotion and fire are great qualities to have but you have to be able to temper them at times in order to use them fully to your advantage.

stretch

10-17-2007, 01:02 PM

Emotion and fire are great qualities to have but you have to be able to temper them at times in order to use them fully to your advantage.
Yup.

Obstructed_View

10-17-2007, 01:03 PM

Is it really so likely that he pulls something like this late in the fourth quarter of a tie game during Game 5 of the 2008 Western Conference Finals against Bruce Bowen? Josh is hotheaded, no doubt. Stupid? Not a chance. This may not have been about losing one's shit but galvanizing teammates by letting them know you'll jump into a foxhole with them and have their back. Again: IT WAS A PRESEASON GAME. I will bump this thread and eat crow if he pulls this shit again in May.

I hope he doesn't do it in a big game, but Josh has a long history of doing stupid things in big games. He has a long history of losing his cool and shoving people or going off on the officials. None of that made him mentally tough in the playoffs the last two years. Of all the things running the gauntlet through his mind, the situation were probably pretty far down the priority list.

People rarely deviate from what they are, and Josh doesn't show any signs of improvement. Maybe he'll just be able to turn off his temper when the playoffs roll around and the emotions run high. Good luck with that.

Obstructed_View

10-17-2007, 01:04 PM

Emotion and fire are great qualities to have but you have to be able to temper them at times in order to use them fully to your advantage.
Agreed. Emotion and fire have never been qualities that were lacking in Josh Howard.

Cry Havoc

10-17-2007, 01:09 PM

The best example off the top of my head I can think of "mental toughness" is the Spurs series against Phoenix. Someone has it in their sig. Bowen catches the ball on the wing right by the Suns bench, and they start yelling at him. He just drills a trey in their faces.

Several people are stating it was a dumb thing Howard did. I'll go a step further. If you let Brad Miller, Brad freaking Miller get into your head during a pre-season game, you have no hope of holding it together over the long haul. Shoving a guy in the back like that is like waving a flag that says, "I cannot express myself in a rational way." That's definition of weakness, a man who cannot control his emotions.

I'm all for sticking up for your teammates. However, the refs were right there, and the player wasn't in danger. Why not show how tough you are by drilling a shot right in Miller's face, or going up over the top of him for a rebound? Or boxing him out? Or 15 other things you could do to make him feel like there is no way he's superior on the court to you and your team.

Show mental toughness on the court, with the game clock running. If the other team wants to start something and pick up a tech., accept the free throws and laugh at them for being so foolish.

Dirk Nowitzki

10-17-2007, 02:04 PM

First of all fuck Brad Miller! Secondly as much as Josh Howard was standing up for a teamate, he needs to control his emotions better. It is just as much of his fault as it is Brad's. Take whatever punishment they give you and learn from it. It is over and done with. Now lets move on. :clap :clap :clap

Reggie Miller

10-17-2007, 02:08 PM

The Spurs took lots of hits from guys over the years and they allowed the officials to take care of it.

I recall the real Reggie Miller once saying in an interview that he never bothered to trash-talk the Spurs after it became Popovich's team, becuase the Spurs' players would just ignore him.

Mr.Bottomtooth

10-17-2007, 05:16 PM

LMAO dumb bitch Miller pushed the wrong guy.

ElNono

10-17-2007, 05:50 PM

I remember Manu getting punked by a combo of K-Mart/Carmella/third guy I don't remember in the 2003 playoffs. This was a minute before the game was over, and you could tell piggie Karl told them to do it to see if we would react. Nobody reacted, Manu got up, made the free-throws, game Spurs. Carmella (another pussy that likes to sucker-punch and run away) got thrown out of the game.
What Manu did is *THOUGH MINDED*. He never lost sight this was just a game, and that the goal was the championship, and that the team needs him on the court in order to get there.
What both Howard and Miller did is typical of weak minded people. They let people get in their heads, and that just shows how weak minded they are.
I suspect Avery will have another round of conversations with Josh about it, and I'm fairly sure they will be more harsh repercussions if it happens again.

Hemotivo

10-17-2007, 06:27 PM

I remember Manu getting punked by a combo of K-Mart/Carmella/third guy I don't remember in the 2003 playoffs. This was a minute before the game was over, and you could tell piggie Karl told them to do it to see if we would react. Nobody reacted, Manu got up, made the free-throws, game Spurs. Carmella (another pussy that likes to sucker-punch and run away) got thrown out of the game.
What Manu did is *THOUGH MINDED*. He never lost sight this was just a game, and that the goal was the championship, and that the team needs him on the court in order to get there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVdf9flv3sE

2005 Playoffs

BUMP

10-17-2007, 06:47 PM

Josh lost his cool. this team still needs work. its one thing if Miller was delivering an intentional cheap shot, but he was just frustrated. i experienced this so many times when i was a teenager playing middle school/AAU/varsity ball. you dont run across the court and shove the guy. you let the two guys and the refs handle it, and then maybe give a hard foul. i cant believe any Mav fans are defending this. no championship teams do this

ludda

10-17-2007, 07:15 PM

I dont even know why this is even a big deal. Both moves were cheap, plus Miller looked more concerned that his cornrows were messed up from behind than anything. Don't know why he was all pms about a stupid preseason game in the first place and howard should have punched him in the face if he really wanted to let him have it. I'm surprised how much coverage this has been getting considering the pussy moves on both sides.