Manny Ramirez is an idiot

[Thunder Dan]

seriously, did anyone catch his pose after he hit a home run last night to cut the lead to 4. Some pitcher needs to put one in his ear.

[johnsmith]

karma.

Dude acts like an idiot, and his team does nothing after that.

Fuck Manny

[v2freak]

That's what he does after every homerun...

If a team in basketball is winning by 30 with 2 minutes left in the fourth quarter and someone on the other team hangs on the rim after a dunk, I would say...




who cares?

[MajorMike]

Manny is such a waste of air.

[Jimcs50]

Manny is such a waste of air.

Riiiight. He is one of the greatest right handed hitters in history, the best post season homerun hitter in history, and the best 2 strike hitter in baseball....and you say he is a waste of air.

:rolleyes

Manny did the pose because the Sox just made 3 straight HRs and he wanted to try to get the team fired up and feeling good offensively for the first time in 20 innings....chill the fuck out.

[JamStone]

saw nothing wrong with it, especially since it's manny and he has no sense of reality. i dont think he does shit to outright disrespect anyone. i just think he has no clue. and jim is right, he's one of the best hitters in baseball EVER. ultimately, it doesnt matter what he did anyway. the bottomline was 7-3. i hate to use the cliche, but at the same time, its appropriate ... thats just manny being manny.

[misterx91578]

why worry about what manny did its 3-1

[Melmart1]

Manny is such a waste of air.
One which you would love to have on your team.

[Jimcs50]

"I'm just trying to go have fun," he said. "If somebody strikes me out and shows me up, that's part of the game. I love it. I like that. I like to compete and when people strike me out and they show me up, it's all good. There's no hard feelings."

Ramirez spent seven-plus seasons in Cleveland and was part of the Indians' World Series teams in 1995 and 1997.

The Indians' Kenny Lofton didn't have a problem with Ramirez posing.

"It's the playoffs, and you've got to enjoy it," said Lofton. "If I hit a ball like that, I'd do it, too."


Manny has been having fun playing baseball and not taking it too seriously for years, and that is fine with me.

[Thunder Dan]

do you want to take back your defense of Manny after what he said yesterday? Basically that it's no big deal if they lose and he doesn't really care

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/10/18/SP4QSRLKC.DTL

[Melmart1]

do you want to take back your defense of Manny after what he said yesterday? Basically that it's no big deal if they lose and he doesn't really care

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/10/18/SP4QSRLKC.DTL
Yeah, and then later, in the SAME article, he says:"Who cares about the records? We just want to go out and win."

You can't take anything Manny says seriously. He marches to the beat of his own, slightly-off drummer.

And I don't know why an Indians fan is so concerned. You are on the verge of winning, if a guy from the other teams doesn't seem to care (in your eyes), then that would be good, no?

I still say the Sox win tonight. After that, who knows.

[T Park]

Basically that it's no big deal if they lose and he doesn't really care


eh

what he says is true.


Its just a friggen ball game. That I don't have a problem with.


Standing with your hands in the air looking like a dumbshit down 4 runs, akin to making a routine tackle and celebrating down 30.

[Jimcs50]

eh

what he says is true.


Its just a friggen ball game. That I don't have a problem with.


Standing with your hands in the air looking like a dumbshit down 4 runs, akin to making a routine tackle and celebrating down 30.

Um, no. Making a tackle and hitting a HR in the playoffs are as far apart as night and day.

You should get excited when hitting a HR, especially when it was the 3rd straight HR for your team that was down 7-0 just 5 mins prior....RIGHT???

This BS is baseball where you can not celebrate is so far out dated it is unreal. In basketball, they are allowed to jump up and down when hitting a big shot or make a big dunk. In football, you are allowed to jump up and down and scream when you catch a TD or thrown one, so wtf can you not enjoy hitting a HR????

[2centsworth]

Manny is a beast.

[T Park]

In basketball, they are allowed to jump up and down when hitting a big shot or make a big dunk.

yeah and how many times do you say "Amare Stoudamire looks like a jackass"


You should get excited when hitting a HR, especially when it was the 3rd straight HR for your team that was down 7-0 just 5 mins prior....RIGHT???

Yeah going from 5 down to 4 down, whew, CELEBRATE!!!!



This BS is baseball where you can not celebrate is so far out dated it is unreal.

god whipe your eyes and listen.

No problem celebrating in baseball, none at all.

But DOWN 5, cutting it to 4? WTF are you celebrating?

Now had that tied the game, cut it to 1 run in that inning?

Yeah, I'd be down with that.

[Jimcs50]

yeah and how many times do you say "Amare Stoudamire looks like a jackass"



Yeah going from 5 down to 4 down, whew, CELEBRATE!!!!




god whipe your eyes and listen.

No problem celebrating in baseball, none at all.

But DOWN 5, cutting it to 4? WTF are you celebrating?

Now had that tied the game, cut it to 1 run in that inning?

Yeah, I'd be down with that.


Idiot!!!! They just hit 3 straight HRs. That is only the 3rd time in history that that has happened in the AL Pennant championship. Do you not need to get 3 runs first in order to get to 7 runs in your comeback?? Why would he not get excited??? Did Manny not think that he was in the middle of a great comeback? Probably yes....so lighten the fuck up.....

[ducks]

congrat they are probly the first team to hit back to back to back homeruns and still lose

[FromWayDowntown]

Anyone who thinks Manny is going to change is deluded.

And anyone who thinks Manny committed some unpardonable sin in Game 4 with his home run pose is taking this stuff a bit too seriously.

[T Park]

Idiot!!!! They just hit 3 straight HRs. That is only the 3rd time in history that that has happened in the AL Pennant championship. Do you not need to get 3 runs first in order to get to 7 runs in your comeback?? Why would he not get excited??? Did Manny not think that he was in the middle of a great comeback? Probably yes....so lighten the fuck up.....

Why?

Cause your getting your ass kicked.

Get it through your thick skull IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!



And anyone who thinks Manny committed some unpardonable sin in Game 4 with his home run pose is taking this stuff a bit too seriously.

Not that far.

But hes a showing up punk.

[FromWayDowntown]

Not that far.

But hes a showing up punk.

Who cares? What difference does it make? Manny hit a home run in a playoff game -- an absolute bomb the other way, at that -- and got excited about it. He celebrated in his own way and that was that. It didn't change the outcome of the game; it didn't change the fact that Manny crushed the ball.

I don't see why we get so worked up over this stuff. It's a freakin' game. Nobody deserves to be hit with a baseball just for showing some emotion in playing the game.

Our notions of what constitutes disrespect these days are really odd to me.

[Melmart1]

Anyone who thinks Manny is going to change is deluded.

And anyone who thinks Manny committed some unpardonable sin in Game 4 with his home run pose is taking this stuff a bit too seriously.
:tu All that needs to be said. A lot of Spurs fans seem to think every damn thing is disrespectful, and most of the time it isn't. I don't know what the Cleveland fan's problem is, if his team was in a 1-3 hole I could see him maybe bitching but instead of celebrating a possible WS berth, he has to piss and moan over a HR that had no bearing on the outcome of the game.

And the best part is that in response to something he thinks is disrespectful, he does an equally classy thing in calling for Manny to get thrown at :rolleyes

[dirk4mvp]

fuckin haters. Manny is the shit.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

I don't see why we get so worked up over this stuff. It's a freakin' game. Nobody deserves to be hit with a baseball just for showing some emotion in playing the game.

Our notions of what constitutes disrespect these days are really odd to me.


Showing up a pitcher or the perceived showing up of a pitcher almost always draws a response from the other team/pitcher, just not in the playoffs. It wouldn't surprise me if Lewis beaned Manny next year.


It's part of the game.

[FromWayDowntown]

Showing up a pitcher or the perceived showing up of a pitcher almost always draws a response from the other team/pitcher, just not in the playoffs. It wouldn't surprise me if Lewis beaned Manny next year.

It's part of the game.

It's not as if this is my first exposure to baseball -- I guess my question is: why is that part of the game?

It's the same jackass nonsense as the significant number of hitters who glare at the pitcher (or even take runs at pitchers) every time they're dotted. Shit happens; move along and don't get your panties in a wad about some jackass acting a fool. The better revenge isn't to throw at him; it's to dominate him in succeeding plate appearances.

I guess my issue is that everything now is seen as showing up someone else. A pitcher lets one slip and buzzes a hitter and he's showing up the hitter. A hitter takes too long to get out of the box on a home run and he's showing up the pitcher. Where did all of this nonsense come from?

I can see the issue of throwing at a hitter when a player on your team has been thrown at -- that's part of being on a team and it exacts precise revenge for an intentional act by the other team. I can't see using hurt feelings over a home run celebration as a reason to put a runner on base.

Throwing at Manny won't change the fact that he celebrated that home run; and it's unlikely to deter him from celebrating other home runs that might seem as significant at the time he's hit them. In fact, throwing at Manny might just encourage him to continue with those celebrations -- if you're going to give him the base and you're going to expose your pitcher to the possiblity of ejection, that's a win for Manny.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Baseball is chock full of inane codes that I don't understand at all. Right, wrong and understanding have nothing to do with most of these traditional codes; they are what they are.

Just one example:

If the score is 1-0 and the opposing pitcher is throwing a no-no into the 8th or 9th, you lay down a bunt to get on base and that's not acceptable? I don't get how trying to get on base and possibly into scoring position to tie the game is the wrong thing to do.

[FromWayDowntown]

Baseball is chock full of inane codes that I don't understand at all. Right, wrong and understanding have nothing to do with most of these traditional codes; they are what they are.

Just one example:

If the score is 1-0 and the opposing pitcher is throwing a no-no into the 8th or 9th, you lay down a bunt to get on base and that's not acceptable? I don't get how trying to get on base and possibly into scoring position to tie the game is the wrong thing to do.

I don't think the no-bunt unwritten rule would be applicable in a 1-0 game. I think that issue arises when a bunt hit isn't likely to change much other than the number of hits on the scoreboard. In a 1-0 game in the 8th or 9th, I don't think anyone would expect a great bunter to give up that weapon and respect the no-hitter.

At that, I can understand that code as well. It's about disrespecting the game, though, and not about getting someone back for injured feelings. If the Indians didn't want to get butthurt about Manny's celebration, then their pitcher shouldn't have thrown him a fat pitch to drive the other way. That Manny crushed the ball and gave his team a glimmer of hope after an inning in which they seemed to (and may ultimately have) lost their chance to win a title, it makes sense that a guy would be pretty pumped about giving his team a chance.

Nobody talks about Torrealba showing up the D'Backs by circling the bases in Game 3 of the NLCS with his right arm extended into the air. Isn't that just as demonstrative (if not moreso) as Manny's antics? Why not dot Torrealba? I'm guessing that there was no hue and cry because: (1) Torrealba's bomb gave his team the lead; (2) Torreabla was playing at home; and (3) Torrealba is, well, Yorvit Torrealba. I don't see that any of those things change the extent of the celebration or the disrespect that it might foster.

[Melmart1]

Nobody talks about Torrealba showing up the D'Backs by circling the bases in Game 3 of the NLCS with his right arm extended into the air. Isn't that just as demonstrative (if not moreso) as Manny's antics? Why not dot Torrealba? I'm guessing that there was no hue and cry because: (1) Torrealba's bomb gave his team the lead; (2) Torreabla was playing at home; and (3) Torrealba is, well, Yorvit Torrealba. I don't see that any of those things change the extent of the celebration or the disrespect that it might foster.
Torrealba is not a Red Sox. I guess Manny is being held to a different standard, and Cleveland fans haven't won in so long they forgot how to act.

[K-State Spur]

am i the only one that noticed that he went out of his way to throw off his helmet about halfway down the third base line trying to score?

not that it surprised me that the announcers didn't mention it. a jet airline could crash in CF and Tim McCarver would still be blabbering about how great it was when guys used to throw at each other's heads...

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

I don't think the no-bunt unwritten rule would be applicable in a 1-0 game. I think that issue arises when a bunt hit isn't likely to change much other than the number of hits on the scoreboard. In a 1-0 game in the 8th or 9th, I don't think anyone would expect a great bunter to give up that weapon and respect the no-hitter.




My memory is fading, that situation occurred in a 2-0 perfect game bid. Is it still disrespecting the game when you bring the tying run to the plate in the 8th?

Isn't the point to win the game?

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Nice home run trot on the single.

[Erect as a Bull]

Yea I saw Manny throw off his Helmet to on his way to score. He confuses me sometimes.

and :lol @ his long single.

Great Hustle :elephant:

[Jimcs50]

Nice home run trot on the single.


It was a home run, you fucking idiot.

[Erect as a Bull]

It was a home run, you fucking idiot.

:lol Now whos the fucking retard?
It wasn't a HR you cocksucker.

[Jimcs50]

:lol Now whos the fucking retard?
It wasn't a HR you cocksucker.


It was a homerun, you fucking retard. It hit the yellow line...Are you fucking blind...like the umps?

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Uh, no. A ball that hits the yellow line is in play.

[K-State Spur]

It was a homerun, you fucking retard. It hit the yellow line...Are you fucking blind...like the umps?

being able to see doesn't help when you don't know the rules. it has to CLEAR the yellow line to be a HR. some parks have different rules on this, but the ball has always had to clear the yellow line at jacobs field.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

This is the rule at Jacobs Field:

Fair batted ball that travels over the yellow line on top of the outfield wall (on the fly): HOME RUN.

[BeerIsGood!]

I don't have a problem with Manny doing his thing, but I also don't want to see these same people in this thread talking shit the next time another athlete shows someone up after a play.

[Jimcs50]

This is the rule at Jacobs Field:

Fair batted ball that travels over the yellow line on top of the outfield wall (on the fly): HOME RUN.

WTF have the yellow line then? Stupid Indians...no wonder they never win anything.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

The line is just to give the umps a better visual on the ball.

[K-State Spur]

WTF have the yellow line then? Stupid Indians...no wonder they never win anything.

so that the umpires can tell where the ball is in relation to the top of the wall. a lot of those backgrounds get tricky from 100 yards away without the ability to zoom in like they do on television.

MOST stadiums that have a yellow line require the ball to clear it to be a HR. The Indians are not unique in this instance.

the umpires got it right. the ball hit the top of the wall and came back into play. no reason for complaint.

[FromWayDowntown]

From Bill Simmons' Game 4 diary -- not a big Simmons fan, but this thought, from one of his readers, was on point and funny regarding the Manny issue:

Mark from Philly offers an inspiring defense for Manny's home run preening: "When Manny went deep, my first thought was, 'Quit posing, Manny, we're still down 7-3.' Then it dawned on me that Manny probably had no idea what the score was. In fact, he probably isn't aware that baseball games are determined by which team scores more runs. Manny's only point of differentiation comes when, after hitting a home run, he sees his teammates waiting for him at home plate -- it's at that point he knows it's time to go to the strip club."

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/071016

[SRJ]

I like Manny. He's a spaced-out goofball playing to have fun.

With all of the crap he supposedly pulls, it's odd that he never gets the "cancer" label. Manny is closer to Chad Johnson/Gilbert Arenas than he is Terrell Owens/Dennis Rodman.

[slayermin]

I didn't realize Manny had 24 postseason homeruns. You add that to his career 20 grandslams and he has some accomplishments only few can rival.

His OBP in this years playoff is .585. Incredible. And yet, he gets more criticism than praise.

[Jimcs50]

I didn't realize Manny had 24 postseason homeruns. You add that to his career 20 grandslams and he has some accomplishments only few can rival.

Yep he broke a Yankee's record. :toast

His OBP in this years playoff is .585. Incredible. And yet, he gets more criticism than praise.

He also is the first player to walk twice in one inning in LCS history, like he did tonight.

Also tied Pete Tose's record for 15 straight games getting a hit in LCS history.

The man has a piece of just about every record in post season history.....he should get a pass on every quirky thing he does...he is that good,

[johnsmith]

I wonder if Manny enjoys you sucking his cock too?

[K-State Spur]

I didn't realize Manny had 24 postseason homeruns. You add that to his career 20 grandslams and he has some accomplishments only few can rival.

Part of that is due to his era though. 1) he has played in the greatest hitter's era in the history of baseball. 2) he plays in the expanded playoff format which gives him many more games to get his records. you can say he's the greatest postseason power hitter of the past 12 years, but if given 3 rounds of playoffs, it is likely that Mantle would be uncatchable in those regards.

[JamStone]

opportunity does not change reality

[K-State Spur]

changes the amount of meaning you should put on that reality though. everything should be viewed within context.

[Jimcs50]

I wonder if Manny enjoys you sucking his cock too?

Only you would enjoy a man sucking your cock. :rolleyes

[Erect as a Bull]

:lol I am probably one of few Yankee fans in the world that enjoys watching Manny.

World Series tickets go on Sale tommorow Morning.
Hopefully I get in.

I'm gonna try to go to Bostons hotel and get pics with Manny :lol

[johnsmith]

Only you would enjoy a man sucking your cock. :rolleyes


Nice, good "I know you are but what am I" smack.

Dude, when you remove your lips from Manny's testicles, then we'll argue back and forth about him ok?

[dbreiden83080]

Manny is one of the most talented yet utterly clueless athletes of all time. Great hitter but a useless teammate when he is not hitting, he has no leadership qualities of any kind, he just lives in his own little world.

[bresilhac]

Manny is a terrific outfielder who can hit with the best of them. Especially with risp. His happy go lucky antics should not take away from his abilities on the field. He more than pulls his weight in the outfield and at the plate. And if that isn't good enough for you Manny haters then eff you. Manny lends himself to alot of criticism because he isn't like ordinary players. But his numbers speak for themselves and that along with his terriffic teammates will eventually end up winning the World Series.

Go Sox!

[Jimcs50]

Manny is one of the most talented yet utterly clueless athletes of all time. Great hitter but a useless teammate when he is not hitting, he has no leadership qualities of any kind, he just lives in his own little world.


Do you even watch baseball??? What an idiotic post.

:rolleyes

[dbreiden83080]

Do you even watch baseball??? What an idiotic post.

:rolleyes

Well way to combat my statement jackass. What do you have to prove his case exactly??? Manny is a great hitter who can't field for shit and has a lousy attitude. Did you know that the Red Sox wanted to get rid of him so bad a few years ago they put him on waivers which means anyone could have him if they just picked up his contract. They did not even want trade value for him and guess what nobody picked him up because he makes 20 mil a year and when he is not hitting he is as i said "USELESS" to the ball club. You want someone on your team that says "Who cares if we lose there is always next year", go ahead you can have him.

[v2freak]

I think he said "it's not the end of the world if we lose", which is a bit different. He lacks the fire at times, but I don't think that he doesn't care about his team's success.

Also, his fielding is pretty good IMO. Even with those two errors in the 2004 World Series, he managed to snag Finals MVP.

[dbreiden83080]

I think he said "it's not the end of the world if we lose", which is a bit different. He lacks the fire at times, but I don't think that he doesn't care about his team's success.

Also, his fielding is pretty good IMO. Even with those two errors in the 2004 World Series, he managed to snag Finals MVP.

His fielding is not good he has an OK arm and almost no range out there. He gets help in Boston thanks to the ballpark but have you ever seen him play left in Yankee stadium? As a Yanks fan i have many times over and he is one lousy outfielder. Like i said before Sox were willing to give him up for nothing a few years ago they wanted him gone so bad, enough said.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Manny is dogshit defensively.

Average arm, little-to-no range, takes bad angles, gets bad jumps on flyballs, etc.

He's a wonderful hitter and a wonderfully atrocious fielder.

[K-State Spur]

Also, his fielding is pretty good IMO.

Wow, if that's your standard for pretty good, I'd hate to see a bad outfielder.

He doesn't make as many errors as he should because OFs don't get credited with errors for having poor range and/or taking bad routes to the ball. He also gets more than his fair share of assists because baserunners go on him at will.

Now, I don't think anybody will dispute that his hitting makes up for his poor fielding. But make no mistake - he's a poor fielder, one of the worst in the league.

[T Park]

The poster pretty much summed it up.

One of the best hitters ever.

but a poor fielder and even poorer teammate.

Trying to deny that is just that. Denial.

[FromWayDowntown]

For all of the bad things you can say about Manny, his teammates do seem to really love the guy.

On top of that, he's quickly becoming a mortal lock to be enshrined in Cooperstown.

[Melmart1]

For all of the bad things you can say about Manny, his teammates do seem to really love the guy.

On top of that, he's quickly becoming a mortal lock to be enshrined in Cooperstown.
Exactly. I mean, what the hell is the definition of a bad teammate to some of you? His teammates love him and the main reason anything he says/does causes controversy is because the media blows it up, like they do everything that comes out of Boston or NY. And people like a lot of you here who will find any reason to hate any and everything that comes out of those two cities just eat it up.

[K-State Spur]

And people like a lot of you here who will find any reason to hate any and everything that comes out of those two cities just eat it up.

Some might do that, but others are also ignoring (not simply looking past) his flaws because they're a fan.

Just because he's the best right handed hitter of the past decade does not make him even a league average outfielder.

Just because he's great at one thing does not mean that his flaws are off-limits to discussion.

[Melmart1]

Some might do that, but others are also ignoring (not simply looking past) his flaws because they're a fan.

Just because he's the best right handed hitter of the past decade does not make him even a league average outfielder.

Just because he's great at one thing does not mean that his flaws are off-limits to discussion.
I agree with that, completely. I am a big Manny fan, but on his best day he is average at best and on an average day he is subpar at best. I realize this.

But the flaw that people are playing up -- bad teammate, that one I object to. I have yet to read a single thing from anyone who hates on Manny from the Sox. And then someone here embellished what he said, saying that he said he doesn't care, when that is not what he said.

So basically, "Manny being Manny" turned into "bad teammate" and "it's not the end of the world" turns into "i don't care." THAT is what I object to. I am not such a Manny homer that I can't see his flaws, but for crying out loud, people need to quit making shit up, too.

[K-State Spur]

Well, I would argue that even on his best day his lack of range prevents him from being average, but I'll agree with rest of your post. Never heard his current or former teammates criticize him like you have with Bonds.

(On the other hand, let us not forget that he was put on Waivers a few years back and there were rumors of the Red Sox trying to move his contract - despite his incredible production. Was that just because it was so large? Doubtful for second richest team in the game. At its extreme peak, I think even the Red Sox got a little sick of Manny being Manny.)

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Would it be wrong to say that one of the greatest hitters of the modern era is a terrible baseball player?

[v2freak]

Wow, tough crowd. Horrible outfielder? No range? Average arm?

[FromWayDowntown]

On the other hand, let us not forget that he was put on Waivers a few years back and there were rumors of the Red Sox trying to move his contract - despite his incredible production. Was that just because it was so large? Doubtful for second richest team in the game. At its extreme peak, I think even the Red Sox got a little sick of Manny being Manny.

Let's not blow the waivers thing out of proportion, either. MLB teams frequently sneak even their best players onto the waiver wire for a variety of reasons -- reasons that have little to do with any desire to rid themselves of such players.

And for all of the focus on Manny's shortcomings, the truth is that his teams have generally been winners and he's been a huge reason for that. He makes up for his defensive liabilities with his offensive prowess. It's not as if he's the first great hitter to have been a poor defender; great hitters are frequently forgiven of their defensive shortcomings.

I think sometimes Manny's happy-go-lucky attitude about the game pisses fans off, but I've yet to see any evidence that his teammates dislike that part of the Manny Ramirez Experience. Sure, there's the legend of "Manny being Manny," but when the chips are on the table, he's the guy his teammates trust.

[Jimcs50]

What a bunch of clueless idiots.

Name me one teammate that said Manny is a bad teammate...just one. Manny is loved by all his teammates and coaches. I read the Herald every day and I have never ever heard one quote from any player that is even the slightest bit negative about their teammate.

He has made 3 great defensive plays in the playoffs already this year, 2 great catches and one assist. There are very few players that are great defensively, and dominant offensively, you either have one or the other, and his play in left field is suspect. I do declare that there is not one team in the league that would not take Manny on their team if he made average pay. Only 4 teams would pay any player 22 million, and if any of them had a chance to get him, they would do it.

This quote from Manny about it not being the end of the world if they do not win it all is one of the reasons why he is so clutch in pressure situations in the post season. He is not affraid to fail, he knows that in the grand scheme of things this is just a game. Manny is from a poor poor family in the Dominican Republic, he has seen people live in such poverty and squalor that he truly knows what is really important and what is not. Baseball is a game, it is not life or death and I think he has perspective. What the hell is wrong with that???

Did any Spurs fan hate Robert Horry when he was asked how he seems to thrive in game winning 3 pointers in the playoffs??? Robert said and I quote: I just do not care if it goes in or not, that is why I can do it" " I am not affraid to fail, I know that when I get home, my familly will still love me and that is all that matters" Do you assholes remember that quote??? Does that mean that he does not want to win??? No. It means that he is not paralyzed by the thought of failure in the playoffs, like say an A Rod.


Manny is a first ballot HOFer, when all is said and done, he will have every major playoff record offensively(He passed Bernie Williams earlier in career HRs) and is on pace to break the record for most grand slams in a career.

Manny is a great player, yes he is a little quirky, but that is just being Manny.

[K-State Spur]

Let's not blow the waivers thing out of proportion, either. MLB teams frequently sneak even their best players onto the waiver wire for a variety of reasons -- reasons that have little to do with any desire to rid themselves of such players.

It shouldn't be blown out of proportion, but teams NEVER put a player on waivers that they have ZERO interest in moving.

The Red Sox were open to the possibility. Given that he was still producing as much as ever, something had to have opened that door.

[K-State Spur]

He has made 3 great defensive plays in the playoffs already this year, 2 great catches and one assist. There are very few players that are great defensively, and dominant offensively, you either have one or the other, and his play in left field is suspect. I do declare that there is not one team in the league that would not take Manny on their team if he made average pay. Only 4 teams would pay any player 22 million, and if any of them had a chance to get him, they would do it.

Most of Manny's "great" defensive plays would be routine for any other LF. His bad routes, bad jumps, bad reads, and poor range have led to him making even the routine exciting in LF.

And, as said before, he's going to make assists because EVERYBODY runs on him (except for inexplicably the Indians' 3rd base coach in game 7...).

However, I do agree with the majority of the rest of your post. His production certainly outweighs his flaws - but he does have flaws.

[FromWayDowntown]

It shouldn't be blown out of proportion, but teams NEVER put a player on waivers that they have ZERO interest in moving.

The Red Sox were open to the possibility. Given that he was still producing as much as ever, something had to have opened that door.

Well, they were also willing to move Manny for ARod a few years ago, when Manny was producing monster numbers -- perhaps there were thoughts of a similar deal.

I don't think, though, that you can assume that putting Manny through the waiver process is indicative of some pervasive problem that Manny creates. In fact, I'd argue that Manny is one of the few guys in baseball who could be traded straight up for a superstar with each team feeling as though it got equal value.

I'm not really sure what has inspired this navel-gazing attempt to dissect Manny's flaws as a player. Manny was lambasted by some for his celebration after blasting Lewis in Game 4, but that wasn't a comment on the quality of his play; it was a comment on his sense of perspective, I suppose. In any event, the notion that anyone would dispute that Manny is a great baseball player, even considering all of his flaws, is laughable to me. On top of that, there's no basis for an argument that Manny is a bad teammate or even a bad guy. Trying to nitpick the flaws in Manny's game is a bit like saying that Shaq doesn't block enough shots or that Tom Brady isn't exceptionally good running the ball in the open field. Yeah, it's a valid criticism, but it makes little difference in terms of how effective the player is for his team.

[Jimcs50]

Most of Manny's "great" defensive plays would be routine for any other LF. His bad routes, bad jumps, bad reads, and poor range have led to him making even the routine exciting in LF.

And, as said before, he's going to make assists because EVERYBODY runs on him (except for inexplicably the Indians' 3rd base coach in game 7...).

However, I do agree with the majority of the rest of your post. His production certainly outweighs his flaws - but he does have flaws.


I disagree, those 2 great plays were not routine, they were out and out beautiful plays. In fact, both made the top 10 plays of the day list on ESPN, including the #1 play of the day, in which Manny had to sprint about 25 yards and dive for a short fly ball that he caught on the tip of his webbing.

[Jimcs50]

Trying to nitpick the flaws in Manny's game is a bit like saying that Shaq doesn't block enough shots or that Tom Brady isn't exceptionally good running the ball in the open field. Yeah, it's a valid criticism, but it makes little difference in terms of how effective the player is for his team.

:clap

You have perspective, my friend.

[K-State Spur]

I disagree, those 2 great plays were not routine, they were out and out beautiful plays. In fact, both made the top 10 plays of the day list on ESPN, including the #1 play of the day, in which Manny had to sprint about 25 yards and dive for a short fly ball that he caught on the tip of his webbing.

well, if he made ESPN top plays, then they must have been special...

besides, i won't say that he's incapable of making a good play/throw. what i will say is that most of the good plays that he makes would have been much more routine for better OFs.

You simply cannot be objective and say:

a) he gets good reads on the ball
b) he takes good routes
c) he has good range
d) his arm is anything better than average at best.

[Jimcs50]

well, if he made ESPN top plays, then they must have been special...



Do I sense a hint of sarcasm? If not, then :toast

[Reggie Miller]

Put Ramirez in left field in a park like San Diego or Houston. Then see if anyone thinks he is an above average fielder. I got nothing against the guy, but LF in Fenway isn't exactly a litmus test. That said, I don't think he is hurting his team, becuase after all, he is playing LF in Fenway. Our minor league park here in town requires more range, for crying out loud.

At any rate, K-State is right. He is a fairly poor outfielder in any objective sense. I'd still take him on the Tigers over Sheffield any day.

[K-State Spur]

Do I sense a hint of sarcasm? If not, then :toast

Jeter ends up on top plays about once a week, but any legitimate measure, he's a mediocre defensive player.

[Jimcs50]

Jeter ends up on top plays about once a week, but any legitimate measure, he's a mediocre defensive player.

Maybe so, but as with Manny, do you want both on your playoff roster as starters, or do want great defensive players who never excel in October when the lights are shinning the brightest? Answer that.

[K-State Spur]

I've said multiple times in this thread that Manny's offensive production more than outweighs his poor defense.

[Melmart1]

I'm not really sure what has inspired this navel-gazing attempt to dissect Manny's flaws as a player.
It's the Boston hate. It's very fashionable right now.

[Jimcs50]

It's the Boston hate. It's very fashionable right now.


Jealousy is an ugly thing to behold....seriously.

[K-State Spur]

Jealousy is an ugly thing to behold....seriously.

You label it as jealousy to easily. I'm rather indifferent towards the guy, but can you not understand why some people would be bothered with a guy who - despite being the most talented right handed hitter of his era - hasn't run a ball out since 1998? And he's actually allowed his defense to worsen the longer he's been in the league.

I can completely understand why - given the positives that he adds to the lineup - any Red Sox fan would be willing to overlook that. On the other hand, most Red Sox fans should be willing to understand why outsiders would see him as lazy and not respect a guy who doesn't give his full effort 100% of the time. (And actually, most of the Red Sox fans that I do know do understand this.)

[Reggie Miller]

The stakes are high when you are discussing a HOF player. That is, when you have a group of people that are admitting that Ramirez is a HOF player based on his hitting alone, it is fair to discuss his overall performance compared to the other all-time greats. Also, I agree that you have to put these things in context.

For example, if Ruth or Mantle had played in LCS and LDS series, one or the other would hold just about every offensive record for postseason play. Does that diminsih Ramirez? No, becuase he had to produce at or around the same level as Ruth, despite being RH. (In other words, he actually had to hit those home runs, not just receive "projected home runs.")

Another thought: Babe Ruth was the greatest baseball player of all-time, even though Ted Williams has slightly better hitting statistics. Why? Ted Williams never pitched a complete game victory in the World Series. There is more to the game than hitting.

Ramirez is not a good fielder. When you start comparing him to men like Ruth, Williams, Aaron, etc., that is relevant. I'm not saying that anyone here has literally been comparing him to the pantheon of baseball gods in this thread, but I think that is where a lot of people come from in this discussion. That is, he is a no-brainer first ballot HOF, but he will be remembered as a guy who should have remained a DH.

I assume that the "jealous" comments were not directed at me, but I felt compelled to respond. Ramirez is not beyond reasonable criticism. If he played half of his games in another park, he would probably be revealed as a liability in the field. As it is, he gets by, which is why Ortiz is the DH.

[Jimcs50]

And George Gervin could have played better D as well....what is your point?

As I said, you rarely have that great offensive player and great defensive player. Manny produces more offense by a more than a 10-1 ratio than his defensive liabilities give up....so who really cares, besides nit picking fans who hate the Red Sox? Ask any Red Sox player or coach if they want to trade Manny for any other player right now, and they would more than likely all decline, to the man.

[Reggie Miller]

And George Gervin could have played better D as well....what is your point?

As I said, you rarely have that great offensive player and great defensive player. Manny produces more offense by a more than a 10-1 ratio than his defensive liabilities give up....so who really cares, besides nit picking fans who hate the Red Sox? Ask any Red Sox player or coach if they want to trade Manny for any other player right now, and they would more than likely all decline, to the man.

Historically, that hasn't always been true in baseball. "Specialization" is a function of the DH rule.

You are WAY too sensitive about this. 1) I said Ramirez is a no-brainer first ballot HOF; 2) I said I would love to have him on the Tigers (my favorite team); 3) My conclusion is I would rather have him as a DH.

Pointing out that a player could be a defensive liability on another team is not "nitpicking." That is half of the game. I don't hate the Red Sox. I don't care about the Red Sox. I was glad for them when they won in 2004, and I haven't wasted any personal psychic energy on them since.

However, it is pretty obvious to me that Ramirez couldn't play LF effectively in Comerica Park. What is so controversial or hateful about that statement?

[Jimcs50]

Historically, that hasn't always been true in baseball. "Specialization" is a function of the DH rule.

You are WAY too sensitive about this. 1) I said Ramirez is a no-brainer first ballot HOF; 2) I said I would love to have him on the Tigers (my favorite team); 3) My conclusion is I would rather have him as a DH.

Pointing out that a player could be a defensive liability on another team is not "nitpicking." That is half of the game. I don't hate the Red Sox. I don't care about the Red Sox. I was glad for them when they won in 2004, and I haven't wasted any personal psychic energy on them since.

However, it is pretty obvious to me that Ramirez couldn't play LF effectively in Comerica Park. What is so controversial or hateful about that statement?

Not you, I was talking to the haters.

Not way too sensitive, just trying to win an argument....I love to try to do that, if you had not noticed by now.

:)

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

It's the Boston hate. It's very fashionable right now.


I don't think their are many who hate the Red Sox as a team. Most people hate their fans.

I have nothing against Manny or his organization.

It's hate to say there are Little Leaguers who run the bases better than Manny does?

His fielding is average on a good day?

I guess VY has company.

[Jimcs50]

Most people hate their fans.

.


:depressed

[Melmart1]

I don't think their are many who hate the Red Sox as a team. Most people hate their fans.

I have nothing against Manny or his organization.

It's hate to say there are Little Leaguers who run the bases better than Manny does?

His fielding is average on a good day?

I guess VY has company.
I said BOSTON hate, not Red Sox hate. I realize it's the supposedly 'douchebag' fans that people are hating, and that is what is popular. If I had a dime for every time someone said how much Boston fans have become like Yankee fans (not true) etc etc I would retire. Although, the hate for the team supposedly becoming like the Yankees (also not true) is fairly palpable as well.

I stand by my assertion, though. The Boston backlash is alive and well and completely stupid, imho. There are bandwagon fans everywhere, for every team. I have lived on both coasts and points between and you wouldn't believe how many bandwagon fans there are. That shouldn't make you hate the fanbase or the team.

But along with the Boston hate comes a scrutiny of players like Manny unlike what they have had before. And calling him an 'idiot' like in this title is not only reaching, but a product of that backlash, imho.

[v2freak]

I wouldn't consider playing the Green Monster to be a very easy feat. Just my two cents.

[Erect as a Bull]

I said BOSTON hate, not Red Sox hate. I realize it's the supposedly 'douchebag' fans that people are hating, and that is what is popular. If I had a dime for every time someone said how much Boston fans have become like Yankee fans (not true) etc etc I would retire. Although, the hate for the team supposedly becoming like the Yankees (also not true) is fairly palpable as well.

I stand by my assertion, though. The Boston backlash is alive and well and completely stupid, imho. There are bandwagon fans everywhere, for every team. I have lived on both coasts and points between and you wouldn't believe how many bandwagon fans there are. That shouldn't make you hate the fanbase or the team.

But along with the Boston hate comes a scrutiny of players like Manny unlike what they have had before. And calling him an 'idiot' like in this title is not only reaching, but a product of that backlash, imho.

Or bandwagon Boston fans.
I hate that shit as well.

I've always hated Boston but after 2004 I hate them even more.
They think that they have always been better then the Yankees and they talk shit year after year.
Not all fans but a lot of them.

[Jimcs50]

With Manny's 2 RBIs last night, he passed David Justice to take over 2nd place in career post season RBIs and only trails Bernie Williams by 16 for 1st place. He will break the record tonight when he gets 17 RBIs.

:smokin

[johnsmith]

With Manny's 2 RBIs last night, he passed David Justice to take over 2nd place in career post season RBIs and only trails Bernie Williams by 16 for 1st place. He will break the record tonight when he gets 17 RBIs.

:smokin


Plus he got another post game blow job from Jimcs50.

[Reggie Miller]

I wouldn't consider playing the Green Monster to be a very easy feat. Just my two cents.

I played in the infield and pitched, so take this for what it's worth.

My guess is learning the angles and ricochets isn't easy at first. However, it is a good situation for Ramirez, becuase it helps his range problem. (Balls that would drop 10-20 feet in front of the warning track in most stadiums hit the Monster and bounce back toward the fielder.) Ramirez is pretty good at playing balls off the wall, but I have also seen him let balls hit the wall on one hop that other left fielders could have caught.

Like I said, Ramirez is perfectly OK in Fenway. He has most of his problems in road games. Oddly enough for someone with his hitting ability, he doesn't read fly balls very well. Having a green background (reading the ball off of the wall) seems to be easier for him. As far as I can recall, I have never seen Ramirez play in the Metrodome. That would probably be an adventure!

[Jimcs50]

Plus he got another post game blow job from Jimcs50.


Again, you act like getting a blowjob from another male is some kind of good thing. I would never think twice about getting blown by a man....

I think you are gay, to be honest, not that there is anything wrong with that.

[Jimcs50]

I played in the infield and pitched, so take this for what it's worth.

My guess is learning the angles and ricochets isn't easy at first. However, it is a good situation for Ramirez, becuase it helps his range problem. (Balls that would drop 10-20 feet in front of the warning track in most stadiums hit the Monster and bounce back toward the fielder.) Ramirez is pretty good at playing balls off the wall, but I have also seen him let balls hit the wall on one hop that other left fielders could have caught.

Like I said, Ramirez is perfectly OK in Fenway. He has most of his problems in road games. Oddly enough for someone with his hitting ability, he doesn't read fly balls very well. Having a green background (reading the ball off of the wall) seems to be easier for him. As far as I can recall, I have never seen Ramirez play in the Metrodome. That would probably be an adventure!


Colorado has a huge outfield...you will se soon enough how Manny can handle a huge area.

I think he will do just fine, personally.

[Spawn]

Do your thang Manny :toast Do your thang