Brent Barry gets a bad rap... [Archive]

RuffnReadyOzStyle

10-19-2007, 09:43 PM

Okay, so last night I had a wonderful night on the town then decided to watch 2005 Finals game 7 again. Good decision! ;)

This game (what a game!) reminded me a just how good Barry has been in the clutch for us during his time here, but so many people give him a bad rap!

He and Rob carried us in the first half of that game, and he was also excellent in a number of other games that series, and in those playoffs as a whole. Also, last year he played a crucial role in kick-starting the team against Denver. He's had spurts of extreme effectiveness throughout his time here, and I think he's under-appreciated.

Barry has a very high bball IQ, runs the team well when he's asked to, takes care of the ball, passes beautifully, moves well off the ball, hustles his arse off, and hits the 3 at over 40%, often in momentum-turning situations. Also, he's clearly a great team glue guy. Aren't those the reasons why he was brought here?

Admittedly, he is overpaid, and his gun-shyness can become annoying, but often he holds off on the trigger because he doesn't want to jack a 3 early in the clock as per team rules.

I say more props for Barry!

:spin

Mr.Bottomtooth

10-19-2007, 09:47 PM

He is a good player. He kicked major ass behind the arc in the season last year, but he's just too goddamn inconsistent when it comes to the playoffs.

T Park

10-19-2007, 09:52 PM

He had 1 good game vs Phoenix, game 1.

One decent game, game 7 against Detroit.

Other than that?

Hes been a bust and a huge dissapointment. No sugar coating it.

whottt

10-19-2007, 11:30 PM

He had 1 good game vs Phoenix, game 1.

One decent game, game 7 against Detroit.

Other than that?

Game winner/tier against the Kings in 06.

He's had other good games...you're just a blind hater...

And what you fail to notice...his man never leaves him. He never gets doubled off of...

You can't put a price on that when it's coming from a bench player.

But by all means don't let me get in the way of your blind hate T Hate...

You've been hating for 3 years now and they've been good years...might as well hate to the end.

SequSpur

10-19-2007, 11:34 PM

Brent Barry kicks ass.

Trainwreck2100

10-19-2007, 11:41 PM

Brent Barry gets a bad rap...

Well it's not as bad as tony's http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/1368/rimshotwh5.gif

John Patrick

10-19-2007, 11:42 PM

^^^end of discussion

Russ

10-19-2007, 11:53 PM

Brent Barry is okay . . . But we could have had J.R. Smith for him if only we were not a few seconds late . . . That's JR Smith!! people. THE JR Smith.

Bottom line, we need to trade Beno. He SUCCCKKKKS!

And how did we end up with Fran Elson, and let Jackie Butler go????? Jackie was great. I was so hoping Denver would match and the Knicks wouldn't. Elson SUCCKKKS!

Bottom line, Beno SUCCKKKKS!!!!

v2freak

10-19-2007, 11:59 PM

Barry is awesome! If this is his last year, I hope he goes out with a bang.

T Park

10-20-2007, 12:02 AM

Game winner/tier against the Kings in 06.

you really wanna bring up 06?

How much of a scared bitch he was against Dallas, to where he screwed up an INBOUNDS PASS for god's sake.

He's had other good games...you're just a blind hater...
06-07 SAS 19 0 11.8 .350 .306
Take a guess whos stats that was in the playoffs last year?
yeah thats blind hate...

duncan7721

10-20-2007, 12:02 AM

I think he deserves to stay and is a big part of the spurs, off the court also.

Solid D

10-20-2007, 12:16 AM

J.R. Smith's clueless turnover in Game 3 helped to ruin any chance the Nuggets had last season. Barry is actually the better player right now.

whottt

10-20-2007, 12:25 AM

Forget about the fact that JR Smith had some DWI...or something. He's a bonehead.

Anyway...biggest problem Barry had with Spursfans...

They expected him to be a scorer...

Dude's career high was like 14 ppg as a starter, logging 30+ minutes per game and being one of the focal points of the offense, on an uptempo team...his career average when coming to the Spurs was 10ppg...

I really don't understand why people were expecting him to be Vinny Johnson, or Ric Barry lite...their bad.
'

I guess no one ever actually watched him play before he got here.

whottt

10-20-2007, 12:27 AM

you really wanna bring up 06?

How much of a scared bitch he was against Dallas, to where he screwed up an INBOUNDS PASS for god's sake.

06-07 SAS 19 0 11.8 .350 .306
Take a guess whos stats that was in the playoffs last year?
yeah thats blind hate...

He wasn't the reason we lost against Dallas....

You're as lame as timvp with the +/- from that series....

And he got his minutes cut...

At least he didn't start averaging 8ppg fewer in the same minutes....like Finley did...as he choked fucking ass in the finals.

T Park

10-20-2007, 12:34 AM

At least he didn't start averaging 8ppg fewer in the same minutes....like Finley did...as he choked fucking ass in the finals

Finley averaged 15 points per game in the playoffs.

yeah thats choking.

Fucking idiot.

If you remember, wich im sure you typically forget, he hurt his fucking back in game 3 vs Utah, and never shot the same after that.

Also another stat, when Finley scored in double figures, the Spurs were undefeated.

So don't try and bag on Finley, Finley was a huge reason the Spurs won.

Hell, they don't make it out of the first round against Denver without Finley.

whottt

10-20-2007, 01:26 AM

Finley averaged 15 points per game in the playoffs.

yeah thats choking.

Fucking idiot.

Averaging 15 PPG in the playoffs, but only 3 in the finals?

Defines fucking choking...

SFB.

If you remember, wich im sure you typically forget, he hurt his fucking back in game 3 vs Utah, and never shot the same after that.

BFD, Barry got hurt his back and got his minutes cut, because of injury...and you don't cut him any slack...

At least he was consistent...and didn't average 12 fewer PPG in the biggest games of his career...that's a fucking choke.

Also another stat, when Finley scored in double figures, the Spurs were undefeated.

So don't try and bag on Finley, Finley was a huge reason the Spurs won.

BS...didn't need him in 2005...we added him 2006 and were worse off for it....his old team got better for losing him...kicked our asses in fact, and made the finals.

Hell, they don't make it out of the first round against Denver without Finley.

Horse shit...that's like saying AJ's shot was clutch...

We don't make it out of the first round in 06 without Barry's game winner...

How many of those has Finley hit in his Spurs career? 1? In the regular season? Against a decimated Laker team?

Finley is over-rated...if he was worth a shit he would have a title from when he played with TWO MVP's....

T Park

10-20-2007, 02:45 AM

:lol

Alright lets break out the stats against the Nuggets so Whottt can choke on em and try and spin em...

Game 2 14 points 7 rebounds
Game 3 16 points 5 rebound
Game 4 9 points 3 rebounds
Game 5 26 points 4 rebounds

For the wins in the series 16.25 PPG 4.75 rebounds

Ginobili in the wins 14 PPG
Parker in the wins 18 PPG

So wow look at that.
1.75 points less than the Finals MVP, and 2 points better than Ginobili.

The third leading scorer for the team in the series.

So as you see, Finley stepped up when Ginobili was struggling.

That means he was the XFactor, and the MVP of the series.

THANK YOU!

16 points

whottt

10-20-2007, 02:48 AM

T Park

10-20-2007, 03:28 AM

:lol

The guy averages more points per game than Ginobili, and gets 26 in the clinching game, and you still aren't satsified.

Fuck off.

whottt

10-20-2007, 03:32 AM

That's what Finley does...takes shots....whether they are falling or not...

Usually he's just good enough to be on the court, to choke when it matters most.

You act like the Spurs couldn't score without him...I promise you, they can, in fact they did all season long...

When he sucked ass about as badly as ass can be sucked.

T Park

10-20-2007, 03:38 AM

That's what Finley does...takes shots....whether they are falling or not...

Game 5 8 of 9 from Three point land.

Spurs franchise record.

: :toast

Usually he's just good enough to be on the court, to choke when it matters most.

Miss game 5 vs Phoenix when he hit dagger three after dagger three?

Oh yeah, selective memory..

whottt

10-20-2007, 04:00 AM

Game 5 8 of 9 from Three point land.

Spurs franchise record.

: :toast

:yawn

4-1

Miss game 5 vs Phoenix when he hit dagger three after dagger three?

Oh yeah, selective memory..

So?

Barry busted 5 in the fourth quarter of game 1 of the 2005 WCF...blew the fucking game open...doesn't keep you from shitting on him. Was more impressive BTW. Game 1 on the road...biggest game of his career...as opposed to the biggest games of Finley's career...the NBA finals..where he sucked.

I've never seen a player choke in 4 consecutive games that badly before either...you'd think he'd mix in a good one just to break up the tedium...

xcoriate

10-20-2007, 06:32 AM

I kind of like them both...

Anyway, Ruff agree with everything you said, mirrors my sentiments exactly. If he could only play some defence.

wildbill2u

10-20-2007, 07:49 AM

Team Game. Everyone contributes or Pop sits their ass. We're the Champs. Why rag on anyone?

urunobili

10-20-2007, 08:18 AM

i like Brent on our team

angel_luv

10-20-2007, 08:59 AM

Well it's not as bad as tony's http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/1368/rimshotwh5.gif

:lol Well played.

Thomas

10-20-2007, 09:17 AM

Barry is just an underrated player...

Respect...

ehz33satx

10-20-2007, 11:21 AM

Team Game. Everyone contributes or Pop sits their ass. We're the Champs. Why rag on anyone?

Exactly! Anyone on any day can pick their game up and help the big three. Hell, even the big three dont have to carry the load every game. There are any number of ballers on the Spurs who can help win games. It doesnt always have to be the same players.

thispego

10-20-2007, 11:24 AM

barbacoataco and Tpark could not disagree more

bdictjames

10-20-2007, 01:39 PM

Well without Barry I doubt Spurs would have 2 titles right now.

Obstructed_View

10-20-2007, 04:00 PM

This game (what a game!) reminded me a just how good Barry has been in the clutch for us when he has a good game, but so many people give him a bad rap!
One game is a really bad reason to decide that there are no problems with his game. There are a thousand reasons to like him, but he's paid way too much money to perform as erratically as he has since he's arrived here. He was a 12-5-5 guy shooting 50 percent from the floor in Seattle. There's NO reason he shouldn't be putting up better numbers than that on this team.

T Park

10-20-2007, 04:53 PM

One game is a really bad reason to decide that there are no problems with his game. There are a thousand reasons to like him, but he's paid way too much money to perform as erratically as he has since he's arrived here. He was a 12-5-5 guy shooting 50 percent from the floor in Seattle. There's NO reason he shouldn't be putting up better numbers than that on this team.

Agreed.

Hes putting up those numbers in preseason cause hes back to letting er fly.

If had played in the past 3 seasons like this, we would be going for a 4 peat.

jackseven

10-20-2007, 05:24 PM

He wasn't the reason we lost against Dallas....

You're as lame as timvp with the +/- from that series....

And he got his minutes cut...

At least he didn't start averaging 8ppg fewer in the same minutes....like Finley did...as he choked fucking ass in the finals.

I'm not saying you're right or you're wrong about Finley. My question is why do you turn to downgrading Michael Finley when you can't defend Brent Barry's numbers?

Barry is a loser on a winners team. If he didn't have the entire bench yelling at him, he would never shoot.

jackseven

10-20-2007, 05:27 PM

BFD, Barry got hurt his back and got his minutes cut, because of injury...and you don't cut him any slack...

Sounds like a bunch of excuses.

At least he was consistent...and didn't average 12 fewer PPG in the biggest games of his career...that's a fucking choke.

How many of those has Finley hit in his Spurs career? 1? In the regular season? Against a decimated Laker team?

Finley is over-rated...if he was worth a shit he would have a title from when he played with TWO MVP's

Again, why do you immediately turn to cutting down Finley when trying to defend Brent Barry?

jackseven

10-20-2007, 05:30 PM

You're as lame as timvp with the +/- from that series....

Yeah, those stats sure get in the way of defending your hero.

Obstructed_View

10-20-2007, 05:38 PM

Agreed.

Hes putting up those numbers in preseason cause hes back to letting er fly.

If had played in the past 3 seasons like this, we would be going for a 4 peat.
Every game is a chance for Barry to turn it all around. So long as he keeps playing and shooting aggressively, anything in the past is forgiven.

Obstructed_View

10-20-2007, 05:39 PM

You're as lame as timvp with the +/- from that series....

Yeah, those stats sure get in the way of defending your hero.
Whottt has become a caricature; I'm not sure why anybody wastes any effort responding to him anymore.

jackseven

10-20-2007, 06:09 PM

Whottt has become a caricature; I'm not sure why anybody wastes any effort responding to him anymore.

Looking for an easy 2 points on my break.

RuffnReadyOzStyle

10-20-2007, 08:33 PM

whottt and T Park - both Finley and Barry have done valuable things for the Spurs. I don't know why you turned it into one vs the other.

One game is a really bad reason to decide that there are no problems with his game. There are a thousand reasons to like him, but he's paid way too much money to perform as erratically as he has since he's arrived here. He was a 12-5-5 guy shooting 50 percent from the floor in Seattle. There's NO reason he shouldn't be putting up better numbers than that on this team.

I didn't say there were "no problems with his game", nor did I decide to start this thread on the basis of one game - I said that game "reminded me about Barry". I've always liked him and thought he cops too much crap. While in SA he's hit some big shots, but more than that he does a lot in the way of intangibles and is often a momentum changer off the bench with a timely steal or hustle play, a couple of brilliant passes or a dagger 3.

I agree that he's been overpaid, I said that in my OP, but I still think he's been a very valuable part of two championships.

Viva BB! :spin

ducks

10-20-2007, 09:03 PM

Well without Barry I doubt Spurs would have 2 titles right now.
yeah he is the only reason they won it all :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes

T Park

10-20-2007, 09:16 PM

whottt and T Park - both Finley and Barry have done valuable things for the Spurs. I don't know why you turned it into one vs the other.

I merely stated facts about Brent Barry, and he brought in Finley who I defended with numbers as well.

Agreed though.

whottt

10-20-2007, 09:36 PM

I'm not saying you're right or you're wrong about Finley. My question is why do you turn to downgrading Michael Finley when you can't defend Brent Barry's numbers?

Probably for the same reason you ignore the downgrading of Barry and defend Finley...in a pro Barry thread where he was being bashed....only I'm more right when I do it.

Barry is a loser on a winners team. If he didn't have the entire bench yelling at him, he would never shoot.

False...

He would shoot even if the entire bench wasn't yelling at him.

RuffnReadyOzStyle

10-20-2007, 09:47 PM

As I said in the OP, I think Barry passing up on open shots is often because of TEAM RULES - that is, don't shoot early, take time off the clock and look for something better. He's still shot over 200 3s a season (that's at least 2 1/4 a game) each year he's been here.

Also, when the Spurs are playing poorly it often has to do with too many 3s being jacked. Many times I've seen Barry pass up a 3 because 4 out of the last 5 times down the court the Spurs missed on 3s, and he's looked to go inside instead.

He's got a high Bball IQ, and while sometimes we fans might want him to jack the 3 because we are thinking about him making it and changing the momentum of a downslide for us, he usually makes the right decision for the team's sake.

T Park

10-20-2007, 09:53 PM

As I said in the OP, I think Barry passing up on open shots is often because of TEAM RULES

You would be wrong. pop cannot stand when barry passes up open shots.

Many times I've seen Barry pass up a 3 because 4 out of the last 5 times down the court the Spurs missed on 3s, and he's looked to go inside instead.

All well and good, but once again, Pop has told him thousands of times, if your open, shoot the ball.

T Park

10-20-2007, 09:54 PM

Probably for the same reason you ignore the downgrading of Barry and defend Finley

In other words, when Im losing an arguement I have to STRREEETCH and make up bullshit about the guy that took his spot in the rotation.

SRJ

10-20-2007, 10:27 PM

Barry was a 12-5-5 guy shooting 50 percent from the floor in Seattle. There's NO reason he shouldn't be putting up better numbers than that on this team.

There are two reasons, IMO:

1) The Spurs don't generate a ton of points, and about 60 of those come from our big three. When there are about 35 points left to score for the other players, 12 is a lot from one guy.

2) Barry wasn't playing in the kind of defensive system he plays in here. I'm not surprised when vets come to our team and their production takes a hit. I think playing in the Spurs defense is more physically demanding than the defenses of other teams.

xcoriate

10-20-2007, 10:29 PM

The difference between the 03 sonics and 04 spurs offensive schemes is kind of different as well. They run and gunned with Barry leading the break and didn't play any D.

Brent's role in SA is totally different to the one he had with the sonics.

Obstructed_View

10-20-2007, 11:46 PM

whottt

10-21-2007, 12:03 AM

You're as lame as timvp with the +/- from that series....

Yeah, those stats sure get in the way of defending your hero.

1. +/- is lame when used that way.

It's not intended to be soley a measure of individual impact on a team. There are too many variables.

One guy is starting and playing with the best players on the team, while the other guy is coming in during blowouts, on both ends, and playing with the deep bench.

You can't seriously try to claim that playing extended minutes alongside Duncan and Parker makes no difference....

2. 7 games is too small of a sample size to draw any conclusions...way too small. Usually you want about a third of a regular season and a regular role before you start using it to draw early conclusions...some guys say you need 2 complete regular seasons before you can truly say a player helps or hurts a team using +/-.

For instance...I am pretty sure that Shaq was dead last in +/- for the Heat in the 2006 Finals...and the only guy in the entire series with a worse +/- was Keith Van Horn...

You want to swear by +/- when it is telling you that?

If you put me in the starting lineup of the Spurs and put Finley on the deep bench and blowout duty...I'll most likely have a better +/- than Finley.

It's not meant to be used the way people are starting to use it.....

RuffnReadyOzStyle

10-21-2007, 12:07 AM

The Spurs' law for shooters: Take the shot when you are open. How much more "gun" do you need? As said before, the Spurs' offense is based on GOOD SHOTS, no matter when they occur in the shot clock. Barry passes up wide open threes, and that's why his stats suffer, both assists and points, and it has nothing to do with being winded from having to cover Iverson.

Brent's primary role on this team is to shoot. Pop has never benched him for taking too many shots. He has, however, benched him for not taking them. He's a shooter whose field goal percentage dropped when he came to play with Duncan. How many guys can say that?

Point taken.

However, his shooting and 3pt % has risen every year since he's been here (a result of learning his role and the offensive system?):

2004 .423 .357
2005 .452 .396
2006 .475 .446

Maybe he should jack it more than he does, and occasionally I get annoyed when he doesn't. But I really don't think it's gun-shyness. There must be a better reason for it.

When I was talking about not shooting and waiting for a better shot above, maybe sometimes it is also that the Spurs find themselves in an up-and-down style game playing the other team's pace, and Barry is under instructions to slow the game down.

Anyway, I still think he's under-rated. Forget about his shooting for a moment, it's the hustle plays, the smart passes and movement that most impress me. He came here as a shooter, but he does a lot more than that.

I hope he has a great farewell season.

whottt

10-21-2007, 12:21 AM

Point taken.

However, his shooting and 3pt % has risen every year since he's been here (a result of learning his role and the offensive system?):

2004 .423 .357
2005 .452 .396
2006 .475 .446

Maybe he should jack it more than he does, and occasionally I get annoyed when he doesn't. But I really don't think it's gun-shyness. There must be a better reason for it.

When I was talking about not shooting and waiting for a better shot above, maybe sometimes it is also that the Spurs find themselves in an up-and-down style game playing the other team's pace, and Barry is under instructions to slow the game down.

Anyway, I still think he's under-rated. Forget about his shooting for a moment, it's the hustle plays, the smart passes and movement that most impress me. He came here as a shooter, but he does a lot more than that.

I hope he has a great farewell season.

Prior to last years playoffs...he was the all time Spurs leader in post season 3 PCT...based on qualifiers...

And during the regular seasons he's taken as many threes as just about any guy on the team....and he's the one that gets left open the least.

People don't like him because they want him to have a scorer's mentality...and he's never had one.

You can't change things like that about players...Barry may end up finally being a jack it up guy...but he won't be a better player because of it. He'll just miss more shots and make fewer passes. He won't be playing his best game, and he won't be as good as he was in Seattle.

sa_kid20

10-21-2007, 12:30 AM

Brent sure wasn't hesitant shooting the ball in the fist half and he looked really good. Hopefully he will take that mind set into the regular season

slayermin

10-21-2007, 04:01 AM

Barry is great, when he's not running away from his shot. J/K

You can never have enough three point shooters on your bench, imo.

Gerryatrics

10-21-2007, 04:22 AM

He was a 12-5-5 guy shooting 50 percent from the floor in Seattle. There's NO reason he shouldn't be putting up better numbers than that on this team.

1. He was a starter in Seattle.

2. He was the starting point guard. He did get minutes at shooting guard, and spot minutes at small forward as needed, but he played predominately point.

3. He initiated the offense in Seattle, he called and directed the plays on the floor. He was also a focal point of their offense.

4. Seattle didn't have a dominant big. The Sonics had to rely on ball movement, movement without the basketball and perimeter passing setting up outside shooters. That style of play matched Brent's style pretty well.

5. Barry didn't have to concentrate on one on one defense as much in Seattle. He was actually pretty great at transition defense, and his team defense was quite decent. However the defensive side of things was never a strong suit of his, he was definitely an offense-first player.

6. In Seattle he wasn't nearly as timid because he didn't have to worry about being pulled from the game if he tried to thread a pass through that got batted down or took a quick three early in the shot clock when he saw some daylight instead of running the called play. As much as we seem to have a half-dozen people here with a direct line to Coach Pop :rolleyes I've seen Brent get chewed out and subbed out after making an offensive play that Pop apparently didn't like more than once.

7. Tony doesn't pass. ;)

There, 7 reasons why he shouldn't be putting up better numbers here than he did in Seattle.

Que Gee

10-21-2007, 05:55 AM

1. There, 7 reasons why he shouldn't be putting up better numbers here than he did in Seattle.

What I love about people claiming he should be putting up better numbers in San Antonio than Seattle, is it just outs them as the idiots they are.

RuffnReadyOzStyle

10-21-2007, 07:26 PM

1. He was a starter in Seattle.

2. He was the starting point guard. He did get minutes at shooting guard, and spot minutes at small forward as needed, but he played predominately point.

3. He initiated the offense in Seattle, he called and directed the plays on the floor. He was also a focal point of their offense.

4. Seattle didn't have a dominant big. The Sonics had to rely on ball movement, movement without the basketball and perimeter passing setting up outside shooters. That style of play matched Brent's style pretty well.

5. Barry didn't have to concentrate on one on one defense as much in Seattle. He was actually pretty great at transition defense, and his team defense was quite decent. However the defensive side of things was never a strong suit of his, he was definitely an offense-first player.

6. In Seattle he wasn't nearly as timid because he didn't have to worry about being pulled from the game if he tried to thread a pass through that got batted down or took a quick three early in the shot clock when he saw some daylight instead of running the called play. As much as we seem to have a half-dozen people here with a direct line to Coach Pop :rolleyes I've seen Brent get chewed out and subbed out after making an offensive play that Pop apparently didn't like more than once.

7. Tony doesn't pass. ;)

There, 7 reasons why he shouldn't be putting up better numbers here than he did in Seattle.

Well said.

Barry's contribution to SA, as I have said a number of times in this thread, is not measured in stats - it's in his hustle, his basketball smarts, and his momentum turning plays, whether they be 3s, passes or steals in transition.

Added to point 5. above, his transition D IS excellent. He quite often breaks up what looks to be a gimme layup in a 2-on-1 or a 3-on-2 fast break, as does Rob.

The beauty of our second team, besides Manu, is its tremendous hustle, and guys like Barry typify it.

Dex

10-21-2007, 07:46 PM

1. He was a starter in Seattle.

2. He was the starting point guard. He did get minutes at shooting guard, and spot minutes at small forward as needed, but he played predominately point.

3. He initiated the offense in Seattle, he called and directed the plays on the floor. He was also a focal point of their offense.

4. Seattle didn't have a dominant big. The Sonics had to rely on ball movement, movement without the basketball and perimeter passing setting up outside shooters. That style of play matched Brent's style pretty well.

5. Barry didn't have to concentrate on one on one defense as much in Seattle. He was actually pretty great at transition defense, and his team defense was quite decent. However the defensive side of things was never a strong suit of his, he was definitely an offense-first player.

6. In Seattle he wasn't nearly as timid because he didn't have to worry about being pulled from the game if he tried to thread a pass through that got batted down or took a quick three early in the shot clock when he saw some daylight instead of running the called play. As much as we seem to have a half-dozen people here with a direct line to Coach Pop :rolleyes I've seen Brent get chewed out and subbed out after making an offensive play that Pop apparently didn't like more than once.

7. Tony doesn't pass. ;)

There, 7 reasons why he shouldn't be putting up better numbers here than he did in Seattle.

Another thing to be mentioned is time played, in general. Barry was averaging around 33 minutes a game in his last years in Seattle, in a solid playing rotation. In San Antonio, that's been knocked down to about 20 minutes a game, in a more sporadic playing role. With about a third of his playing time being dropped, shouldn't you expect his scoring average to go down?

Year - - - - -Points per Minute (Minutes/Game)
01-02 - - - - 0.382 (37.6)
02-03 - - - - 0.312 (33.1)
03-04 - - - - 0.352 (31.6)
-traded to Spurs-
04-05 - - - - 0.345 (21.5)
05-06 - - - - 0.342 (17.0)
06-07 - - - - 0.389 (21.7)

If you look at his points per minute, he's been about equally as productive. In fact, last year was his most efficient year scoring wise that he's had since the turn of the century, but he still only got about 21 minutes a game.

Part of that is, admittedly, his fault for being unable to stick a spot in the rotation. But he was never expected to be the main cog here like he was in Seattle, and now everyone's disappointed because he's just filling a role.

The problem is the Spurs FO decided to pay him main cog money.

Dex

10-21-2007, 08:01 PM

On a further note, I think part of the reason people don't like Brent Barry is the same reason some people miss Stephen Jackson.

Brent Barry is criticized for often "over-thinking", or passing up shots to try to make a better play. We all want him to let the guns sling, even though he is really more one of those High-IQ players, and he's trying (too hard, at times) to fit into a High-IQ team.

This is, obviously, a problem that Jax never had. He was a guy that wasn't afraid to let a three go on the fast break with nobody under the board. He was saved many times by the fact that he was a killer clutch shooter, but it was that organized chaos that helped spark that '03 team many times, and I think it's the sort of mentality people wish Brent Barry would have.

He seems to be letting it fly so far this year. Maybe he figures that if he's on his way out anyways, he might as well quit trying to impress and get his shots in.

T Park

10-21-2007, 08:16 PM

. In Seattle he wasn't nearly as timid because he didn't have to worry about being pulled from the game if he tried to thread a pass through that got batted down or took a quick three early in the shot clock when he saw some daylight instead of running the called play. As much as we seem to have a half-dozen people here with a direct line to Coach Pop I've seen Brent get chewed out and subbed out after making an offensive play that Pop apparently didn't like more than once.

so its the best coach in basketball's fault.

Amazing...

Obstructed_View

10-22-2007, 06:41 PM

1. He was a starter in Seattle.
He's therefore spending more time against the second unit than he was in Seattle, and when he's playing with the first unit, he's geting wide open looks thanks to playing with vastly better teammates. I understand that his minutes aren't close to what they were in Seattle, but his field goal percentage has dropped, and his assist and rebounding rates have dropped as well. Let's give him a pass on rebounds since the Spurs are probably a better rebounding team, but of his scoring, assists or field goal percentage, you'd expect ONE of them to go up when he came to San Antonio. There just isn't a logical way to explain how all three would go down.

2. He was the starting point guard. He did get minutes at shooting guard, and spot minutes at small forward as needed, but he played predominately point.Barry's last year in Seattle, AD started 71 games, and AD is a point guard. Before that Gary Payton was there for all but about the last 25 games when he was traded to Milwaukee. Kenny Anderson was also there for a time. Brent was not the starting point guard for any length of time.

3. He initiated the offense in Seattle, he called and directed the plays on the floor. He was also a focal point of their offense.See above. Focal points of offense draw defenders. Therefore Brent's scoring, or at least his field goal percentage should go up.

4. Seattle didn't have a dominant big. The Sonics had to rely on ball movement, movement without the basketball and perimeter passing setting up outside shooters. That style of play matched Brent's style pretty well.The Spurs rely on ball movement, movement without the basketball and perimeter passing, all keyed by a dominant post player. You don't take threes on the run, and Brent's three point percentage should be higher, not lower.

5. Barry didn't have to concentrate on one on one defense as much in Seattle. He was actually pretty great at transition defense, and his team defense was quite decent. However the defensive side of things was never a strong suit of his, he was definitely an offense-first player. If he's an offense-first player, then he shouldn't be passing up shots.

6. In Seattle he wasn't nearly as timid because he didn't have to worry about being pulled from the game if he tried to thread a pass through that got batted down or took a quick three early in the shot clock when he saw some daylight instead of running the called play. As much as we seem to have a half-dozen people here with a direct line to Coach Pop :rolleyes I've seen Brent get chewed out and subbed out after making an offensive play that Pop apparently didn't like more than once.
The offensive play that Pop didn't like was passing up wide open shots in favor of questionable passes. In short: He gets pulled BECAUSE he's timid. If he's making bad passes instead of following the play, as you seem to suggest, that would be a reason for a coach to put his ass on the bench as well. Hardly the work of a starting point guard or the focal point of the offense.

7. Tony doesn't pass. ;)
Yet Barry's assist numbers went down rather than up.

Kyle Smith

10-22-2007, 07:48 PM

Barry's one of my personal favorite players out there.

I shot free throws with him once when he was with the Sonics. B)

Gerryatrics

10-22-2007, 08:26 PM

he's geting wide open looks thanks to playing with vastly better teammates.

Does he really get a lot of wide open looks? From what I've seen, when he's on the floor he's the one player on the perimeter defenders tend to always stay home on.

I understand that his minutes aren't close to what they were in Seattle, but his field goal percentage has dropped, and his assist and rebounding rates have dropped as well.

99-00 SEA 0.463 FG% 0.411 3P%
02-03 SEA 0.458 FG% 0.403 3P%

06-07 SAS 0.475 FG% 0.446 3P%

Sure, he shot over 50% a couple of seasons with the Sonics, but if you expect him to always shoot above 50% you might be expecting just a little too much from him.

Let's give him a pass on rebounds since the Spurs are probably a better rebounding team, but of his scoring, assists or field goal percentage, you'd expect ONE of them to go up when he came to San Antonio. There just isn't a logical way to explain how all three would go down.

Really? Going from a starter to not having a solid spot in the rotation, getting less minutes and getting less touches... None of those would seem like a logical explanation for a drop in stats to you?

Barry's last year in Seattle, AD started 71 games, and AD is a point guard.

I think perhaps you've confused Games Started with Games Played? AD started 32 games for the Sonics in 03-04, coincidentally about the same amount of games Barry missed due to a couple of injuries. Brent started 53 games.

Before that Gary Payton was there for all but about the last 25 games when he was traded to Milwaukee.

28 games, which I believe saw Brent Barry start at Point Guard. Even when he was on the floor with GP, Barry ran a lot of point. But yes, Payton was the starting Point Guard before the trade.

Kenny Anderson was also there for a time.

OK.

And...?

Brent was not the starting point guard for any length of time.

That assertion is incorrect.

Focal points of offense draw defenders. Therefore Brent's scoring, or at least his field goal percentage should go up.

Ball movement draws defenders and leads to mismatches and open shooters. Also, I meant focal point as in initiating and being actively involved in the offensive sets, not necessarily chucking up shots every time he got his hands on the ball.

The Spurs rely on ball movement, movement without the basketball and perimeter passing, all keyed by a dominant post player.

Really? You're going to use the Spurs' Motion Offense to defend your position? Really?

You don't take threes on the run, and Brent's three point percentage should be higher, not lower.

I've actually seen him take a couple of threes on the run, albeit usually to beat the shot clock. Made a couple of absolutely ridiculous shots that way. No, you usually don't shoot a lot of threes on the run, which is fine, because Seattle wasn't a running team like the Steven Nash Suns, they just had a lot of movement in their half-court offense.

If he's an offense-first player, then he shouldn't be passing up shots.

I hope I don't blow any Homers' minds with this, but... passing is a part of the offense too. But hey, I'm with you, I wish Brent would jack up more shots.

The offensive play that Pop didn't like was passing up wide open shots in favor of questionable passes. In short: He gets pulled BECAUSE he's timid.

Ah, so you have a direct line to Pop too, huh? Hey, do you think you could give him a call and ask him why Beno is still on the team? I was curious if it was a salary thing or if Beno had some incriminating pictures or something.

If he's making bad passes instead of following the play, as you seem to suggest, that would be a reason for a coach to put his ass on the bench as well.

Yeah, good thing the big three average 0.0 TO's per game or they might find their asses riding pine.

Hardly the work of a starting point guard or the focal point of the offense.

Yeah, that's the true indication of a starting point guard, they never fail to complete a pass.

Yet Barry's assist numbers went down rather than up.

Starting point guard to backup shooting guard with sporadic minutes, less minutes per game, less touches per game, on a team with less points per game. Actually, I shouldn't even bother responding to that one, just let it stand on it's own.

barbacoataco

10-22-2007, 08:46 PM

The Truth #6

10-22-2007, 10:19 PM

The game flows much more smoothly when Barry is out there. His mistakes are from not shooting enough. Finley's mistakes are from shooting every time he touches the ball, made worse by Pop telling him he needs to shoot even quicker.

Finley played great in the beginning of the playoffs but did fade as they went along. Brent is just steady. His lows are not as low, his highs are not as high. On the Spurs I would prefer to have steady. And again, like I said, he appreciates ball movement and the team game. If Finley wasn't a likable guy people would hate his guts for being a gunner that doesn't know when to stop. But Pop likes him because he has "balls", which is great but doesn't neccesarily translate to wins.

Que Gee

10-23-2007, 01:38 AM

Really? You're going to use the Spurs' Motion Offense to defend your position? Really?

.

:lol Thats exactly what I was thinking.

RuffnReadyOzStyle

10-23-2007, 08:28 AM

Last season Barry was actually 4th on the Spurs in minutes played. He didn't play well in the playoffs because he was coming off his injury. I like this 2nd unit: Elson, Bonner, Barry, Udoka, Ginobili. That gives the Spurs 4 players who can hit the 3-pt at a high %. Ginobili or Barry could bring the ball down the court, and the Spurs would still have good size.

Barry played just under 1500 minutes last year. I saw a graph of how well Pop manages regular season minutes versus D'Antoni who tires out his stars.

Yeah, I like that unit too. We're deep this year, deeper than I can remember, at every position except the point, and two of the swings can cover that.

And you forget Vaughn who is quite handy now that he has learned the system and found a corner jumper. And Horry who will come out of retirement around April... :lol:

The game flows much more smoothly when Barry is out there. His mistakes are from not shooting enough. Finley's mistakes are from shooting every time he touches the ball, made worse by Pop telling him he needs to shoot even quicker.

Well said, absolutely spot on. :tu

Obstructed_View

10-23-2007, 08:12 PM

:lol Thats exactly what I was thinking.
Good, then you can explain it to me. Let's hear how the Sonics' offense allows more open shots for three point shooters than the Spurs' offense.

Spurs Dynasty 21

10-23-2007, 08:17 PM

he was garbage in the postseason

he deserves it

T Park

10-23-2007, 08:51 PM

Finley played great in the beginning of the playoffs but did fade as they went along

his worst series was vs Cleveland and that was coming off a back injury against Utah.

If barry can use the injured excuse, Finley sure as hell can.

Also, Pop DEMANDS Barry shoot more, he just "doesn't want to"

for some fucked up reason.

RuffnReadyOzStyle

01-12-2008, 10:21 PM

Barry has a very high bball IQ, runs the team well when he's asked to, takes care of the ball, passes beautifully, moves well off the ball, hustles his arse off, and hits the 3 at over 40%, often in momentum-turning situations. Also, he's clearly a great team glue guy. Aren't those the reasons why he was brought here?

Watch how this team finds itself again in the weeks after Barry gets back.

He is very important in the scheme of things.

RuffnReadyOzStyle

01-12-2008, 11:17 PM

Nah, old thread from earlier this season, brought it back because I think we're currently seeing just what Brent means to this team.

bigfundamental21

01-12-2008, 11:30 PM

Barry is a role player and as such, he will not be scoring 20 pts a night or taking over games. He comes in to play a particular role when needed. I do think that before the injury, Barry was a huge asset to our team. He moves the ball well, has good court vision, can get hot from the 3pt line, and hustles when he is on the court. When he and Manu play together, the passing game gets elevated to another level. I know a lot of people don't like Barry, but he brings things to the table that make our team better. He may not be perfect, but he understands his role.

m33p0

01-12-2008, 11:34 PM

why the hate on barry? he's on the roster for one thing only and that is to spread to floor so that duncan, manu and tony could operate more freely. he does that and he does that well. nuff sed.

RuffnReadyOzStyle

01-12-2008, 11:41 PM

why the hate on barry? he's on the roster for one thing only and that is to spread to floor so that duncan, manu and tony could operate more freely. he does that and he does that well. nuff sed.

Point = missed.

The team is lacking crisp ball movement and cohesion right now - those are two things Barry brings a lot of (along with hustle and 3-pt shooting) although he doesn't get much credit for it.

This team will look a lot better when he's back.

xbocker

01-13-2008, 12:13 AM

Isn't barry the only white guy that won the dunk contest?

Phenomanul

01-13-2008, 12:27 AM

Whether or not he is shooting well... defenders don't leave Barry open often (at least they try not to).... I don't know how the Barry haters can claim that this is a detriment to the team (whether he lets it fly or not); his presence on the perimeter drastically opens up the space for the other 4 players on the court, it also means that when he plays on Duncan's side that his defender can't double Timmy hard.

T Park

01-13-2008, 12:35 AM

Phenomanul

01-13-2008, 01:00 AM

If barry can continue to be agressive, bring the defensive intensity he will be missed greatly.

But if he goes back into his past 3 year hole, then Udoka is better for the tema to be out there than him.

Plain and simple.

I like Udoka

I like Barry

and I like Finley

It's a great thing to have that wing player combination on our squad...

It's a shame they can't all play as many minutes as would be needed to show why they fit on the team. If you gave each of them 25 minutes (and at least 15 with the big three), I'm pretty sure that all three players would put up the numbers to show that they belong. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way and here we are complaining. :dizzy

Udoka probably has the best defense, Finley provides better rebounding when he's out there, and Barry provides better ball movement. It is in this department that the Spurs have looked lack-luster of late - which is why times like these remind us of Barry's other strengths and why we shouldn't take for granted his contribution to that facet of the Spurs' offense.

Is that so hard to concede?

Let's not also forget that he and Finley provide a fine set of clutch free-throw shooting options for Pop in late game situations...

intlspurshk

01-13-2008, 01:30 AM

The biggest issue is he can't perform well offensively when playing against tough defensive team in the playoff. He can be good against Suns or other run & gun teams. SPURS need some good shooters and slashers to breakdown the defense for tough team. This year, hope he can perform better in this dept.

m33p0

01-13-2008, 02:51 AM

Point = missed.

The team is lacking crisp ball movement and cohesion right now - those are two things Barry brings a lot of (along with hustle and 3-pt shooting) although he doesn't get much credit for it.

This team will look a lot better when he's back.
not exactly. those are the things you come to expect from a veteran who played his early career in an open court system. other than his defense, his game is pretty to watch.

barry epitomizes what the spurs look for in a free agent (at least those that they have signed and kept over the years). he is: a veteran; an outside threat; smart; relatively cheap compared to his skills (well, not exactly).

but reading your post, we seem to agree on something. that is, barry is good for the spurs. i merely pointed his primary function, you stated his bonuses.

m33p0

01-13-2008, 02:53 AM

I like Udoka

I like Barry

and I like Finley

It's a great thing to have that wing player combination on our squad...

It's a shame they can't all play as many minutes as would be needed to show why they fit on the team. If you gave each of them 25 minutes (and at least 15 with the big three), I'm pretty sure that all three players would put up the numbers to show that they belong. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way and here we are complaining. :dizzy

Udoka probably has the best defense, Finley provides better rebounding when he's out there, and Barry provides better ball movement. It is in this department that the Spurs have looked lack-luster of late - which is why times like these remind us of Barry's other strengths and why we shouldn't take for granted his contribution to that facet of the Spurs' offense.

Is that so hard to concede?

Let's not also forget that he and Finley provide a fine set of clutch free-throw shooting options for Pop in late game situations...
if there's only a way to morph all three into 1 player and somehow reduce the age to 25...

timvp

01-13-2008, 03:20 AM

m33p0

01-13-2008, 03:52 AM

RuffnReadyOzStyle

01-13-2008, 04:15 AM

While Barry being out hurts because he was playing well and was a key bench player before his injury, I can't put too much stock into the thought that Barry being out is what has lead the Spurs to struggle. Barry was healthy last year when the Spurs were struggling even worse than they are now.

I think the Spurs are pretty close to turning on their engines and maybe the return of Barry will spark that process a bit but I don't think what we've seen recently is a straight cause and effect.

I'm not going as far as to say Barry's absence is the only reason we've struggled, but I think one of the major things missing right now is cohesion and he will bring a lot of that back. Vaughn brings hussle, Barry brings unselfish team play, especially in the motion offense. It's amazing how he can come in, make a few clever passes to players who aren't involved, and change the whole dynamic of a rotation.

That said, Manu losing the splint, Oberto's return to the SL, Timmy having confidence in his leg again will all help.

I don't think we're too far away from a step forward.