Spurs notebook: Udoka making most of minutes

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Spurs notebook: Udoka making most of minutes

Web Posted: 10/21/2007 12:10 AM CDT

Mike Monroe
Express-News

Spurs coach Gregg Popovich has been taking it easy on some of his veteran players in the preseason. Manu Ginobili, Michael Finley, Fabricio Oberto and Bruce Bowen sat out Saturday's game against the Detroit Pistons after Tim Duncan, Brent Barry and Bowen sat on Thursday against Golden State.
Ime Udoka is one Spurs player who figures to appear in all seven of the games that precede the regular-season opener Oct. 30. He was the Spurs' only free agent signed this summer, so he understands he needs all the repetitions he can get before opening night.


Udoka played 29 minutes in the Spurs' 104-80 victory at AT&T Center, making three of four 3-point shots on his way to 10 points. He also grabbed eight rebounds and had three assists. Several slick passes showed he is getting comfortable in the team's offense.

"For sure, I need as many reps as I can get," Udoka said. "I've been saying it all along: All the rest of these guys have been together a long time and know each other very well. I have to learn them as well as they have to learn me. I don't want to miss any games."

Fan favorite: Darius Washington, the point guard from the University of Memphis who is trying to make the roster, has become a fan favorite over the past two games. Washington followed his 18-point, nine-rebound, eight-assist game in a starting role against Golden State by scoring 12 on Saturday. He exited the game with several floor burns, too, a result of a nasty collision with Detroit's Rodney Stuckey and diving on the floor to tie up Stuckey for a jump ball.



Washington, an alleged 6-foot-1, remains zero-for-jump balls. After not even jumping to contest a jump ball against Golden State's 6-9 Al Harrington, he was beaten to the tap by Stuckey, who is 6-5.

"I need somebody else 6-1 to jump against," Washington said.

Up next: The Spurs will head to Miami for their only extended preseason road trip. They are to play the Heat on Tuesday, then visit Orlando on Thursday.



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[Mr. Body]

God, it's almost depressing to know that a tough, dynamic player like Washington, who ABSOLUTELY WANTS TO PLAY basketball and will skin himself up in a preseason game to get on a roster...

... will be passed over for a saucerful of spoiled milk.

It's so stupid, it's almost criminal.

[Darkwaters]

I was just thinking about this earlier. Everyone is writing off Darius Washington and assuming that he is a goner...the most CIA thing that Pop could do right now would be to trade Beno and bring the guy in.

[T Park]

God, it's almost depressing to know that a tough, dynamic player like Washington, who ABSOLUTELY WANTS TO PLAY basketball and will skin himself up in a preseason game to get on a roster...

... will be passed over for a saucerful of spoiled milk.

It's so stupid, it's almost criminal.

Step up and pay his salary if its so "criminal"

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

With every passing day Udoka gets better and better for us. The more he fits in with us the more confident I feel about our chances of repeating.

[Mr. Body]

Step up and pay his salary if its so "criminal"

Dude, his salary's already -essentially- been paid. No decision they make can reverse that, unless, obviously, they can trade him, which the smart money says they can't. I don't know how many times you people need to hear this: waiving him costs NOTHING.

BENO IS A SUNK COST.

definition: investorwords (http://www.investorwords.com/4813/sunk_cost.html)

another:

'Definition: Sunk costs are unrecoverable past expenditures. These should not normally be taken into account when determining whether to continue a project or abandon it, because they cannot be recovered either way. It is a common instinct to count them, however. '

link (http://economics.about.com/od/economicsglossary/g/sunkcosts.htm)

If you don't understand this, PLEASE don't go into business. You're going to lose a lot of money because you don't understand the value of things. You need to know when to walk away.

The Beno ledger has no money on it. NONE.

[picnroll]

I see why they call you Mr Body and not Mr Brain. You keep babbling on about sunk cost.

1. Most teams carry three PGs because they need the spare guard for emergencies but mostly for practice.
2. Spurs don't want to depend on Barry and/or Manu as the back-up PG and practice dummy PG.
3. Cutting Beno will not cost money
4. Paying for anyone to take Beno's place will cost money, make that the player's salary + luxury tax.
5. Spurs would rather keep Beno as a practice dummy PG than pay about $1.5 million to replace him with someone else as a practice dummy PG.

[Buddy Holly]

Step up and pay his salary if its so "criminal"

Sound logic TPark, you keep it up and we may have to give you a prize or something.

[K-State Spur]

Dude, his salary's already -essentially- been paid. No decision they make can reverse that, unless, obviously, they can trade him, which the smart money says they can't. I don't know how many times you people need to hear this: waiving him costs NOTHING.

BENO IS A SUNK COST.

definition: investorwords (http://www.investorwords.com/4813/sunk_cost.html)

another:

'Definition: Sunk costs are unrecoverable past expenditures. These should not normally be taken into account when determining whether to continue a project or abandon it, because they cannot be recovered either way. It is a common instinct to count them, however. '

link (http://economics.about.com/od/economicsglossary/g/sunkcosts.htm)

If you don't understand this, PLEASE don't go into business. You're going to lose a lot of money because you don't understand the value of things. You need to know when to walk away.

The Beno ledger has no money on it. NONE.

That definition could be even stronger. Sunk costs should NEVER be used for future decisions.

[T Park]

Sound logic TPark, you keep it up and we may have to give you a prize or something.


Yeah maybe I'll attain your greatness and steal someone's photos and make em mine one day.

Who knows, theres always working twords that goal.

[T Park]

I see why they call you Mr Body and not Mr Brain. You keep babbling on about sunk cost

According to him, trading Erick Williams didn't save the Spurs any money.

[SequSpur]

wtf do any of you know about biz? you argue on the internet lke retards.

beno sucks.. how are they going to trade a broken fingered sorry ass pointguard from slovenia?

they will cut him soon.. if darius keeps this up.. they won't have a choice...

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

wtf do any of you know about biz? you argue on the internet lke retards.

beno sucks.. how are they going to trade a broken fingered sorry ass pointguard from slovenia?

they will cut him soon.. if darius keeps this up.. they won't have a choice...
What are your thoughts on Ime?

[Darkwaters]

What are your thoughts on Ime?

I'm incredibly impressed with him so far. He was shooting great against the Pistons and looks to be "as advertised". I just hope he can keep it up and find his niche in this system.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Yea I know. He's gonna do great things for us. I just wanted to see what was Sequ's thoughts on him and see if I can get a good laugh from it. :)

[Darkwaters]

Yea I know. He's gonna do great things for us. I just wanted to see what was Sequ's thoughts on him and see if I can get a good laugh from it. :)

Why bother? It will just turn into a rant about how Bonner is overpaid.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Why bother? It will just turn into a rant about how Bonner is overpaid.
I'm bored. There's nothing like startin up a little argument with Sequ.

[YoMamaIsCallin]

Dude, his salary's already -essentially- been paid. No decision they make can reverse that, unless, obviously, they can trade him, which the smart money says they can't. I don't know how many times you people need to hear this: waiving him costs NOTHING.

BENO IS A SUNK COST.

definition: investorwords (http://www.investorwords.com/4813/sunk_cost.html)

another:

'Definition: Sunk costs are unrecoverable past expenditures. These should not normally be taken into account when determining whether to continue a project or abandon it, because they cannot be recovered either way. It is a common instinct to count them, however. '

link (http://economics.about.com/od/economicsglossary/g/sunkcosts.htm)

If you don't understand this, PLEASE don't go into business. You're going to lose a lot of money because you don't understand the value of things. You need to know when to walk away.

The Beno ledger has no money on it. NONE.

Your analysis is quite incomplete.

The best way to figure out the cost associated with a business decision is to look at the total cost of choice A at some reasonable point in the future X, then the total cost of choice B at time X.

It is true that sunk costs will play into both choices A and B, but the total costs will be different, usually.

In this case, sticking with Beno and cutting the non-guaranteed guy produces a total cost of (the salary of Beno) at the end of the season. Waiving Beno and giving the other guy a contract costs you (the salary of Beno) + (the cost of the other guy's contract) + (the cost of the other guy's contract AGAIN due to luxury tax).

Plus there's the competitive cost of losing Beno to another team. He knows the Spurs system and can execute it. He will take that knowledge wherever he goes.

Plus there's the cost of training the other guy in the Spurs' system.

[Mr. Body]

Incomplete or not, the concept is still there. Bizarrely, people on this board seem to think, in terms of decision making about his future, Beno has a salary coming to him. He has not. His salary is guaranteed: you are not going to 'save' any money by cutting him. It remains to be seen whether he can be traded off for a trade exception, but all the evidence points to: No.

Therefore, do we keep him simply because he has money coming his way? Of course not: he gets that money whether he is cut or not. Therefore (*for decision making purposes*) his salary is nil. The possibility of trading him is probably close to nil, too; otherwise it would have happened already.

There are only two things keeping Beno on the team, possibly three.
1) It is shameful to cut a player making as much as he does. No one readily eats that money, because of the *sense* that you're eating a lot of money, when in fact you've already eaten it.

2) It costs to field his replacement. This is likely the largest crux of the situation. If over the cap or close, as we are, signing another player costs double.

and... 3) The off-hand chance another team would take him. A team unlikely to trade for him might pick him off after he clears waivers. I don't see this as a huge deal - he's not much of a player, after all - but hope springs eternal some team like Indiana may lose all its PGs or something and want to trade.

The point some bozos are ridiculing me about, or trying to, is completely senseless. They're trying to pretend that Beno's salary is about to be paid by the team, which it is not. It's guaranteed and shouldn't factor into their decision-making about Darius Washington or anyone else, but alas it will. It's akin to a bad gambler failing to walk away from the table: what you lost in the previous hand is already lost.

The notion about 'carrying four point guards' is also mostly bogus. As many have said, Pop would go to Barry or Ginobili, in all likelihood, before going to Beno. Beno is a nullity on this team. There's 1% of 1% chance he realizes this is a contract year and his future far from guaranteed and actually play and try, but more likely he'll cost by his presence a decent prospect. Sadly.

[Mr. Body]

In this case, sticking with Beno and cutting the non-guaranteed guy produces a total cost of (the salary of Beno) at the end of the season. Waiving Beno and giving the other guy a contract costs you (the salary of Beno) + (the cost of the other guy's contract) + (the cost of the other guy's contract AGAIN due to luxury tax).

Why are you placing Beno's cost on both sides of the equation? They cancel out and, once again, his salary doesn't matter in this situation. The other point is one I've made and is true: the cost of Darius Washington (or whoever) is the issue. But the people saying I should 'pay Beno's salary' because I'm saying it's a sunk cost are, in this case, morons.

And incomplete as you say my explanation was, you didn't add much.

[ChumpDumper]

Again, you show a distinct lack of imagination when you conclude that the Spurs' paying Beno's contract is inevitable.

[exstatic]

Again, you show a distinct lack of imagination when you conclude that the Spurs' paying Beno's contract is inevitable.
Inevitable is probably too strong. I'd say 95% likely would about cover it, though. If anyone were interested in his deal for a bag of chips and no player in return, they could have had him months ago.

[ChumpDumper]

Inevitable is probably too strong. I'd say 95% likely would about cover it, though. If anyone were interested in his deal for a bag of chips and no player in return, they could have had him months ago.Who says we won't take a player in return now?

[exstatic]

Then the contract must be within monetary parameters, the roster count doesn't change, and Marcus is still a double hit.

[ChumpDumper]

Then the contract must be within monetary parameters, the roster count doesn't change, and Marcus is still a double hit. Consider all the Spurs contracts that can be moved this season, and consder the fact that the Spurs are much less restricted in what they can accept back in a trade, then consider the fact they have four months in which to put something together -- you have to conclude that October is too soon to say the Spurs will definitely pay the luxury tax this season.

[ss1986v2]

The other point is one I've made and is true: the cost of Darius Washington (or whoever) is the issue. But the people saying I should 'pay Beno's salary' because I'm saying it's a sunk cost are, in this case, morons.

fine then, are you willing to pay for the cost of signing washington then? no? ok, then it doesnt matter...

[Darkwaters]

fine then, are you willing to pay for the cost of signing washington then? no? ok, then it doesnt matter...

Predictable.

[exstatic]

Consider all the Spurs contracts that can be moved this season, and consder the fact that the Spurs are much less restricted in what they can accept back in a trade, then consider the fact they have four months in which to put something together -- you have to conclude that October is too soon to say the Spurs will definitely pay the luxury tax this season.
True, but if they DON'T want to pay it, cutting Marcus is a good first step. They have actually paid the tax the past year or two, which led to my assumption that they would this year. If they are going to pay the tax, Marcus is a bad deal.

[ChumpDumper]

Then Ian is also a bad deal because we are paying him as much as a #10 pick this season if you count his salary and tax hit together.

[coopdogg3]

We don't have much of a choice about what we pay Ian. He was a 1st round draft choice, his salary is locked-in and guaranteed. Marcus is a different animal as a 2nd rounder.

[exstatic]

Then Ian is also a bad deal because we are paying him as much as a #10 pick this season if you count his salary and tax hit together.
Mahinmi isn't stiffing against NBA fodder. If Marcus makes his next shot, it takes him over 21% FGs.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Step up and pay his salary if its so "criminal"

You're dumb.

[ChumpDumper]

We don't have much of a choice about what we pay Ian. He was a 1st round draft choice, his salary is locked-in and guaranteed. Marcus is a different animal as a 2nd rounder.So? He's not worth 10th pick money, and since this board has proven that players can never improve we must cut our losses and waive him now.

[ChumpDumper]

Mahinmi isn't stiffing against NBA fodder.He's not playing like a #10 pick.

[Darkwaters]

He's not playing like a #10 pick.

Mohammed Saer Sene?

[coopdogg3]

So? He's not worth 10th pick money, and since this board has proven that players can never improve we must cut our losses and waive him now.

I know you're trying to make a point, but you're not making a lot of sense. We HAVE to pay Ian that amount. We have no choice. It's set by the league. With Marcus we have a CHOICE. Now I favor keeping Marcus for a year, but that doesn't alter the fact that with Ian we're forced to pay him a certain amount. We don't have to pay Marcus. Partially guaranteed contract and all that.

[ChumpDumper]

So? Ian is obviously not worth it and never will be.

Why compound the mistake of signing him in the first place?

Sunk costs and all that.

[ChumpDumper]

Mohammed Saer Sene?Will never improve either. No one ever does.

[coopdogg3]

So? Ian is obviously not worth it and never will be.

Why compound the mistake of signing him in the first place?

Sunk costs and all that.


We have to sign him. We don't have a choice in the matter. Difference between a 1st and a 2nd rounder and all that.

[T Park]

Will never improve either. No one ever does.

Kind of like tony parker at the end of 06.

[T Park]

We have to sign him

They couldve left him in europa...

[SequSpur]

What does Ian, Williams, and Washington have to do with Udoka getting minutes?

You guys can't keep your stupid opinions in one basket can you?

[ChumpDumper]

We have to sign him. We don't have a choice in the matter. Difference between a 1st and a 2nd rounder and all that.Who held the gun to the Spurs' heads to sign him?

[Darkwaters]

What does Ian, Williams, and Washington have to do with Udoka getting minutes?

You guys can't keep your stupid opinions in one basket can you?

You're one to talk with your constant badgering of Matt Bonner.

[coopdogg3]

Who held the gun to the Spurs' heads to sign him?

Dear Lord chump, are you being serious?? As a 1st round draft pick he gets a guaranteed contract. So to continue your metaphor, the NBA is holding the gun to the Spurs head, forcing them to sign him.

[ChumpDumper]

So why didn't we sign him the year they drafted him? Was there no gun that year or was it pointed to some other part of their collective body?

[T Park]

It was prob pointed at the sky.

those two years were warning shots obviously.

[exstatic]

He's not playing like a #10 pick.
Well, the #10 pick,Spencer Hawes, seems to have no preseason stats, so we'll go with #9.

Noah
24.8 mins 40% FG 72% FT 7.4p 6.0r

Ian
15.8 mins 56% FG 100% FT 5.3p 4.0r

Technically, you're right. He's not playing like a #10 pick, who's on the shelf. He's playing like a #9 pick...only better.

[MoSpur]

I hope the Spurs find somehow to keep Washington. Beno is clueless.

[Joe Schmoogins]

Well, the #10 pick,Spencer Hawes, seems to have no preseason stats, so we'll go with #9.

Noah
24.8 mins 40% FG 72% FT 7.4p 6.0r

Ian
15.8 mins 56% FG 100% FT 5.3p 4.0r

Technically, you're right. He's not playing like a #10 pick, who's on the shelf. He's playing like a #9 pick...only better.



...NICE!

[Mr. Body]

But can Mahinmi be as annoyingly spastic as Joakim Noah? That's the question here, folks.

[coopdogg3]

Hook Ian up to a Starbucks I.V. - that should do it.

[ChumpDumper]

They should all be waived. They will never get better.

[exstatic]

They should all be waived. They will never get better.
:dramaquee

[ChumpDumper]

Exactly.

[exstatic]

No one's goin' drama here except you.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm going hyperbolic, the same as anyone that has written Williams' NBA epitaph. I suppose many did the same with Darius Washington last year at this time since he was never drafted as wasn't wanted by any NBA team.

[exstatic]

I'm going hyperbolic, the same as anyone that has written Williams' NBA epitaph. I suppose many did the same with Darius Washington last year at this time since he was never drafted as wasn't wanted by any NBA team.
And no NBA team had to pay for Washington's suckage, did they? And the Spurs didn't have to pay for Ian to suck for two years, did they? I'm all about development on the 15 man roster, if they show something. Marcus sucked hard in summer league and sucks so far in the preseason. The Spurs practically begged him to go to Europe, but he forced their hand by accepting the QO. Now, it might be their turn to force his by saying "See ya". I see no reason why they should pay him NBA wages (and the LuxTax on top) to knock around the minors for the minimum two years it will take for him to pass as a professional basketball player.

[ChumpDumper]

They are certainly within their rights to waive Williams if they think he will never be good or find someone they like better, but your saying waive him because he is not currently playing up to his salary is specious at best and could apply to most rookies.

The Spurs bought the Toros for players who suck. They have already paid for that and will play for players that suck to play there.

[Mr. Body]

And no NBA team had to pay for Washington's suckage, did they? And the Spurs didn't have to pay for Ian to suck for two years, did they? I'm all about development on the 15 man roster, if they show something. Marcus sucked hard in summer league and sucks so far in the preseason. The Spurs practically begged him to go to Europe, but he forced their hand by accepting the QO. Now, it might be their turn to force his by saying "See ya". I see no reason why they should pay him NBA wages (and the LuxTax on top) to knock around the minors for the minimum two years it will take for him to pass as a professional basketball player.

QFT.

Marcus Williams chose a non-guaranteed contract over a year sabbatical and it'll get him cut in pre-season. He might pop up in the league somewhere down the line, but he's not worth it at this point. Some will say he fits a need. But, yeah, perhaps, but he's not ready for it and won't be for some time. Meanwhile, Washington fits a need sooner - he's much more ready and we can count ourselves without Udrih next year and possibly without Vaughn.

[ChumpDumper]

We need a second third point guard?

Get rid of Beno first.

[Obstructed_View]

They are certainly within their rights to waive Williams if they think he will never be good or find someone they like better, but your saying waive him because he is not currently playing up to his salary is specious at best and could apply to most rookies.

The Spurs bought the Toros for players who suck. They have already paid for that and will play for players that suck to play there.
So without making a trade, the Spurs can keep MAHINMI, Williams AND Washington, but just send one or two of them to Austin? If so, how long do the players stay in Austin?

[ChumpDumper]

So without making a trade, the Spurs can keep Udoka, Williams AND Washington, but just send one or two of them to Austin?No, the Spurs roster has to be 15 by the start of the season.
If so, how long do the players stay in Austin?Players can be sent down to Austin for indefinite periods up to three times in a season. Each player would still take up a Spurs roster spot while he is there.

[exstatic]

Unfortunately, to see if he MIGHT pan out for two years might cost them in the neighborhood of $3M with LuxTax figured in...for a player who is absolute shit right now.

[ChumpDumper]

Unfortunately, to see if he MIGHT pan out for two years might cost them in the neighborhood of $3M with LuxTax figured in...for a player who is absolute shit right now.Not if we get rid of Beno.

[Obstructed_View]

No, the Spurs roster has to be 15 by the start of the season.Players can be sent down to Austin for indefinite periods up to three times in a season. Each player would still take up a Spurs roster spot while he is there.
Obviously I meant Mahinmi and not Udoka. Sorry about that.

So that being the case, then you have to get rid of either Beno, Ian, Williams or Washington. As long as you have a chance to use Beno as a commodity to relieve yourself of his salary, you have to keep him and try to shop him IMO. So the Spurs are stuck. Unless the Spurs can trade Beno before the final cuts, then Washington's gotta be gone. Oh well, it won't be the first time a decision was based on political and financial considerations before basketball ones.

[exstatic]

Not if we get rid of Beno.
Easier said than done. He may be the only player in camp that sucks harder than Marcus.

[Obstructed_View]

Easier said than done. He may be the only player in camp that sucks harder than Marcus.
Unfortunately, the only value he has is if you trade his expiring contract, but you have to take someone back in return, and that's more difficult and expensive than waiving Beno outright.

[ChumpDumper]

Easier said than done. He may be the only player in camp that sucks harder than Marcus.Beno is the only guy I can safely say sucks and always will suck as a Spur. That's why I want him gone.

[Obstructed_View]

Beno is the only guy I can safely say sucks and always will suck as a Spur. That's why I want him gone.
That's about the size of it. At this point, you are either going to have to pay his salary with the roster spot, pay something to trade him or get lucky and get rid of him when it's too late. There's really not much to be gained by keeping him, especially if someone that can do his job as well as he can is going to be the casualty of waiting.

[ChumpDumper]

That's about the size of it. At this point, you are either going to have to pay his salary with the roster spot, pay something to trade him or get lucky and get rid of him when it's too late. There's really not much to be gained by keeping him, especially if someone that can do his job as well as he can is going to be the casualty of waiting.At this point, I would think about sending Beno out with the million dollars they are currently slated to pay toward the luxury tax, but I'm sure the Spurs think they can do something better later.

[Obstructed_View]

At this point, I would think about sending Beno out with the million dollars they are currently slated to pay toward the luxury tax, but I'm sure the Spurs think they can do something better later.
Too bad they can't buy more time. If Parker gets hurt against Portand, they're starting in a big hole.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

If Parker gets hurt against Portand,
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79838