Manu + Parker Both Played Great

[Ghost Writer]

Last game, it was nice to see both members of the Spurs' Euro-backcourt have equally impressive games.

Parker took it to a hot Claxton and Manu broke out of his mini-slump.

Good stuff.

That kind of combined effort is what the Spurs need to advance in the playoffs.

[Rick Von Braun]

Who the hell stole Ghost handle?

Ghost, where are you?

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smidrunk.gif

[angel_luv]

I thought I had heard that Ghost was anti -spur????!!!?? Maybe some did steal his handle. Or perhaps it is a Christmas miracle. Does anyone know? =)

[boutons]

"Spurs need to advance in the playoffs"

yes, but... :)

A GS guy was quoted as saying "Cliff did a great job on Tim", and Tim did not get his usual double-double, with only 12 and 7. He played only 25 minutes.

While it's great that Tony and Manu both were big in the same game, but I still have the impression, lingering from the 04 playoff fiasco, that if you slow/stop Tim, you stop the Spurs. And the playoff teams know how to do that, certainly when they know their success depends on it.

In a horrible Spurs first half vs GSW, Tim had 6 PT, 3 (def) RB, 3 AST, 2 T0, 3 PF with 6 mins left in 2nd qtr. Result: Spurs up 4, @SBC, to a non-playoff team, even after Spurs had a 33 PT 2nd qtr.

That's the kind of half that makes Spurs look like a non-playoff team. :)

They have a lot of toughening up to do. I wonder if the Spurs practice "how to play with Tim neutralized" ?

[Solid D]

Last game, it was nice to see both members of the Spurs' Euro-backcourt have equally impressive games.

Parker took it to a hot Claxton and Manu broke out of his mini-slump.

Good stuff.

That kind of combined effort is what the Spurs need to advance in the playoffs.

Agreed....except for one thing. "the Spurs' Euro-backcourt" would be TP and Beno. Manu is from the underside of the equator.

[spursfaninla]

"Spurs need to advance in the playoffs"

I wonder if the Spurs practice "how to play with Tim neutralized" ?

I doubt they say it that way...I imagine pop saying something like "defense not making it smart to go through Tim", "Tim having an off offensive night," or "packing the post". Even so, I think the Spurs have learned better how to deal with that kind of situation; the only question is if at least 2 other spurs players are having good games, and if our D is decent.

When the Lakers reduced Tim's and Tony's effectiveness after game 2 of the playoffs, Manu did not step up his scoring. Devin did, but we really needed 2 guys scoring well.

We can win games where teams score over our scoring average, even if Tim scores under 20 pts, but in order for that to happen 2 of our other players need to score over or close to 20.

If our d is good, and Tim is not scoring well (uncommon, but not as rare as in past years I have noticed), then one other scorer stepping up is enough.

[GoSpurs21]

"Spurs need to advance in the playoffs"

While it's great that Tony and Manu both were big in the same game, but I still have the impression, lingering from the 04 playoff fiasco, that if you slow/stop Tim, you stop the Spurs. And the playoff teams know how to do that, certainly when they know their success depends on it.Name one team other than shaq/kobe lakers that knows how to stop Tim in the playoffs. Funny I cant think of one that has been able to pull that off other than lakers for the last 6 years.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

KG, Rasheed Wallace, there's two

[E20]

Manu played Euro. So he counts.

[smeagol]

Manu played Euro. So he counts.

??????????

[boutons]

"non-Americans? They're all the same, can't tell them apart." :)

[ALVAREZ6]

"non-Americans? They're all the same, can't tell them apart." :)



Chinese people look like blacks, and Irish people look like Indians.

all the time!

[Phenomanul]

^^^ Implied sarcasm...

Anyways Smeagol they meat Manu played Euro --- from when he played in Italy... :spin

[smeagol]

^^^ Implied sarcasm...

Anyways Smeagol they meat Manu played Euro --- from when he played in Italy... :spin

hegamboa, I know E20 meant that.

I can't believe people lump up together everybody who played in Europe and put a "Euro" tag beside their names. Moreso, people in this board, who know damn well Manu is from Argentina.

I guess overgeneralization is something people can help doing.

[Phenomanul]

hegamboa, I know E20 meant that.

I can't believe people lump up together everybody who played in Europe and put a "Euro" tag beside their names. Moreso, people in this board, who know damn well Manu is from Argentina.

I guess overgeneralization is something people can help doing.


I'm certainly not one to lump Manu with the Euros..... I'm proud of Manu because he is the brightest star in a league with few Latinos.

Why do you think he is a great fit in San Antonio.... The many Hispanics here appreciate his cultural background.....

[Rick Von Braun]

When the Lakers reduced Tim's and Tony's effectiveness after game 2 of the playoffs, Manu did not step up his scoring. Devin did, but we really needed 2 guys scoring well.Misinformed statements like this are the ones that I don't understand... it is all about perception, not facts I guess.

Let me tell you something... Manu stepped up BIG time in the Lakers series, BIGGER than any other Spurs not name Duncan. This is how Manu stepped up after game 2:

game 3: 17 pts (leading scorer, played only 22 minutes being the 7th Spurs in minutes played!)
game 4: 21 pts (leading scorer, despite being the 5th Spurs in minutes played!)
game 5: 8 pts (4th scorer, being the 5th Spurs in minutes played)
game 6: 16 pts (2nd scorer, the only game that Pop trusted him with 35 minutes, being the 3rd Spurs in minutes played)

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[ALVAREZ6]

Misinformed statements like this are the ones that I don't understand... it is all about perception, not facts I guess.

Let me tell you something... Manu stepped up BIG time in the Lakers series, BIGGER than any other Spurs not name Duncan. This is how Manu stepped up after game 2:

game 3: 17 pts (leading scorer, played only 22 minutes being the 7th Spurs in minutes played!)
game 4: 21 pts (leading scorer, despite being the 5th Spurs in minutes played!)
game 5: 8 pts (4th scorer, being the 5th Spurs in minutes played)
game 6: 16 pts (2nd scorer, the only game that Pop trusted him with 35 minutes, being the 3rd Spurs in minutes played)

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smidepressed.gif

well said.

Manu and Devin were the heart and soul of the Spurs in the Laker series.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

well about Ginobili, i suppose if you were really going to stretch you could say he is an italian-american, but unless you contend spain isnt in europe you'll have to start considering all hispanics europeans

[deepsouth]

well about Ginobili, i suppose if you were really going to stretch you could say he is an italian-american, but unless you contend spain isnt in europe you'll have to start considering all hispanics europeans
Just to spark a little argument, what in US is called an "hispanic" is related to Spain by the language and little else.
The stock of the "hispanic" cultures is more related to the indigenous peoples of America; the mayas, aztecs, querandies, quechuas, and so on.
In that light Manu is more italian that hispanic.

[ALVAREZ6]

well about Ginobili, i suppose if you were really going to stretch you could say he is an italian-american, but unless you contend spain isnt in europe you'll have to start considering all hispanics europeans
Manu is pure ARGENTINO!

Many of us Argentineans are italian-blooded.
Im 100% Arg.
but my whole mom's side of the family is Italian, what im tring to say is their a lot of Italians in Argentina.

[SequSpur]

Manu is not good enough to be European. Manu is a hot dog from Argentina. Do they sell hot dogs in Argentina?

Just wonderin.

[ALVAREZ6]

Manu is not good enough to be European. Manu is a hot dog from Argentina. Do they sell hot dogs in Argentina?

Just wonderin.
Yes they do.

Panchos.

[spursfaninla]

Misinformed statements like this are the ones that I don't understand... it is all about perception, not facts I guess.

Let me tell you something... Manu stepped up BIG time in the Lakers series, BIGGER than any other Spurs not name Duncan.

I admit that the stats you bring are better than I remember (losses do tend to lend a greater negative impression i guess), I still do not consider Manu to have "taken over", which is what is needed when the defense clamps down on 2 parts of your offense.

My contention is, Manu should have scored over 20 in those games considering how much defensive attention Parker and Duncan were getting.






This is how Manu stepped up after game 2:

game 3: 17 pts (leading scorer, played only 22 minutes being the 7th Spurs in minutes played!)
game 4: 21 pts (leading scorer, despite being the 5th Spurs in minutes played!)
game 5: 8 pts (4th scorer, being the 5th Spurs in minutes played)
game 6: 16 pts (2nd scorer, the only game that Pop trusted him with 35 minutes, being the 3rd Spurs in minutes played)

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As I said, he had 3 good scoring games out of 4, but he needed to TAKE OVER in those games, considering the defensive attention that parker and duncan were drawing. Take what they give. He was good, very good, but not doing what, say Rich Hamilton was doing for his team (and many here rank Manu above him...)

[smeagol]

Sequ is a funny gringo

[1Parker1]

"As I said, he had 3 good scoring games out of 4, but he needed to TAKE OVER in those games, considering the defensive attention that parker and duncan were drawing. Take what they give. He was good, very good, but not doing what, say Rich Hamilton was doing for his team (and many here rank Manu above him..."

^^^Totally agree. Those numbers are great, but despite perhaps Game 4, he didn't really have that powerful game, like he did in the Olympics. Considering a lot of the defensive attention was targeted at Tony and Tim, Manu could have done a lot better. I guess, what I'm thinking is, I don't think he was the difference maker in the series that I expected him to be. That honor went, surpisingly, to Deven Brown.

[Fizzzar]

You seem to forget Manu played less than 30 minutes in those games.

[E20]

Manu is a European player because he played in Europe. The way I asscociate European players is that if he played in Europe he's played Euro ball so he's an European player. He also played in Argentina so he's an Argentine player too.

[1Parker1]

"You seem to forget Manu played less than 30 minutes in those games."

Hmm, well doesn't he normally play around 30 anyways? Also, I don't really remember the series that well, admittingly, but why didn't he play more then 30 min if he was playing so great? Did Pop decide to just not play him and use Brown? Pop could have used both on the floor if that was the case...

[Fizzzar]

1Parker1, The way Manu plays its better to keep him in the low 30s, all I'm saying is that you can't expect him to average 20+ ppg when he plays that amount of time.

[Rick Von Braun]

As I said, he had 3 good scoring games out of 4, but he needed to TAKE OVER in those games, considering the defensive attention that parker and duncan were drawing. Take what they give. He was good, very good, but not doing what, say Rich Hamilton was doing for his team (and many here rank Manu above him...)I see what you are trying to say. Similarly, my point was that he did absolutely fantastic given:

the limited number of plays drawn for him in offense.
perhaps even more importantly, the very limited number of minutes he played.
If he was expected to take over every game, you MUST give him the touches and minutes.

Using your own example, Richard Hamilton against the Lakers averaged 20.6 pts/g, 18 FGA/g, 0.377 FG% and 44.4 minutes/game. He was the leading scorer on his team twice, same as Manu. Manu on the other hand averaged in those 4 games he was supposed to take over, 15.5 pts/g, 11.5 FGA/g, 0.457 FG% and 28.5 minutes/game.

Manu was tremendously more efficient than Hamilton, and got only 5.1 pts/g less despite playing freaking 16 minutes less per game. If you want him to be a 20+ scorer, he must play 35 min/g and get at least 15 FGA/g.

The problem in that LA series, as I have said ad nauseum, was the lack of adaptation by the Spurs. When the Lakers adapted, blocked TP's penetration and defended Tim very well, we didn't draw more plays for Manu and Devin, our two most efficient scorers. In fact, TP and Tim got the the same numer of minutes and shot attempts, despite not being as effective as before.

[Phenomanul]

Just to spark a little argument, what in US is called an "hispanic" is related to Spain by the language and little else.
The stock of the "hispanic" cultures is more related to the indigenous peoples of America; the mayas, aztecs, querandies, quechuas, and so on.
In that light Manu is more italian that hispanic.

Ummmm...

Note what I said....


I'm certainly not one to lump Manu with the Euros..... I'm proud of Manu because he is the brightest star in a league with few Latinos.

Why do you think he is a great fit in San Antonio.... The many Hispanics here appreciate his cultural background.....

I said Latino because that envelops all peoples with "Latin" roots.... Italians definitely fall in that category... then I mentioned that Hispanics in San Antonio appreciate his culture... why? Many of them (myself included) still have roots in countries "south" of the border and can empathize with the hard work it takes for us to succeed in this country, albeit Manu will earn what 50 (edit: previously 500 but was off by a factor of 10) of us will earn over the span of our lifetimes.

I myself have a half spanish grandparent and one who is three quarters german... but you know what? I still ended up looking like a normal Mexican... must be cause I was born in México.... anyhow what I'm trying to say is that sometimes Argentinians fall short of the graces of other "american" cultures because many of them (not all) like to point out the differences between our cultures rather than embrace the similarities [this phenomenon might be news to some of the posters here... but anyone who's lived in another latin-american country, not named Argentina, will tell you that Argentinians are the 'stuck-up' cousins... because they like to consider themselves more 'european' than 'american' as if it meant they were inherently superior.]

Again, I'm not saying that all Argentinians feel this way. But several of the ones I've met over the years have held 'skin color' as an extremely critical caste selector when considering the merits of a person.... downright racism IMO.

Manu, though a proud Argentinian, has conducted himself in a manner that demonstrates that he has no consideration for race when determining the direction his interpersonal relationships will take (you can tell alot about a person from the sincerity of their actions). In pre-game shoot arounds he jokes around with children of all races. I've seen him at a Read to Achieve function and was genuine by all acounts.

I certainly don't expect a 180 degree turnaround in Ginobili's perceived personality 'ala Kobe because what you see from Ginobili on the court, with the media, while at home in his country, or on the court is what you get...transparency. Kobe was a hermit in nature even before last year's fiasco and despite the fact that he was considered the league's role model... so his fall from people's grace was not that big of a surprise to me...

I don't want to start a all-out debate on the generalizations which will certainly not apply to all. It's just that this particular quote pushed one of my buttons. You know, the whole...."well, technically Manu is not hispanic because he is Italian... and he has nothing to do with the indigenous peoples of the Americas.... {a feeling that he is better than that is implied}....

Anyways... just thought I would shed some light on a pet-peeve topic of mine. Good night.

[Phenomanul]

On a clarification.... Manu is by far my favorite player in the league...

[smeagol]

I said Latino because that envelops all peoples with "Latin" roots.... Italians definitely fall in that category... then I mentioned that Hispanics in San Antonio appreciate his culture... why? Many of them (myself included) still have roots in countries "south" of the border and can empathize with the hard work it takes for us to succeed in this country, albeit Manu will earn what 500 of us will earn over the span of our lifetimes.

I myself have a half spanish grandparent and one who is three quarters german... but you know what? I still ended up looking like a normal Mexican... must be cause I was born in México.... anyhow what I'm trying to say is that sometimes Argentinians fall short of the graces of other "american" cultures because many of them (not all) like to point out the differences between our cultures rather than embrace the similarities [this phenomenon might be news to some of the posters here... but anyone who's lived in another latin-american country, not named Argentina, will tell you that Argentinians are the 'stuck-up' cousins... because they like to consider themselves more 'european' than 'american' as if it meant they were inherently superior.]

Again, I'm not saying that all Argentinians feel this way. But several of the ones I've met over the years have held 'skin color' as an extremely critical caste selector when considering the merits of a person.... downright racism IMO.

Manu, though a proud Argentinian, has conducted himself in a manner that demonstrates that he has no consideration for race when determining the direction his interpersonal relationships will take (you can tell alot about a person from the sincerity of their actions). In pre-game shoot arounds he jokes around with children of all races. I've seen him at a Read to Achieve function and was genuine by all acounts.

I certainly don't expect a 180 degree turnaround in Ginobili's perceived personality 'ala Kobe because what you see from Ginobili on the court, with the media, while at home in his country, or on the court is what you get...transparency. Kobe was a hermit in nature even before last year's fiasco and despite the fact that he was considered the league's role model... so his fall from people's grace was not that big of a surprise to me...

I don't want to start a all-out debate on the generalizations which will certainly not apply to all. It's just that this particular quote pushed one of my buttons. You know, the whole...."well, technically Manu is not hispanic because he is Italian... and he has nothing to do with the indigenous peoples of the Americas.... {a feeling that he is better than that is implied}....

Anyways... just thought I would shed some light on a pet-peeve topic of mine. Good night.
Good post hegamboa

After living for more than 7 years in NY and having daily contact with my brothers for other Latin American countries, sadly I have to agree with you that the perception of Argentines among other "Latinos" is not very good (to say the least). Sadly too, I have to admit, we have earned our reputation.

The only thing I would like to add is that the Argentinos that spread a lousy image are not a majority. I hope you can come to my country and see for yourself that the assholes are a true minority.

By the way, nice to hear about Manu's support from the Latin community. The guy is a great addition to the Spurs and he should stay for the span of his contract despite what Sequ says about trading him for VC :rolleyes

[smeagol]

Manu is a European player because he played in Europe. The way I asscociate European players is that if he played in Europe he's played Euro ball so he's an European player. He also played in Argentina so he's an Argentine player too.
E20, dude, WTF are you saying?

So the American players that play in Europe are also Euros; and the ones that play in Argentina (I know there's a few) are Argentine players.

Give me a break, man. Your statement is getting dumber by the second.

[Drachen]

I'm certainly not one to lump Manu with the Euros..... I'm proud of Manu because he is the brightest star in a league with few Latinos.

Why do you think he is a great fit in San Antonio.... The many Hispanics here appreciate his cultural background.....

Well there is always Edwardo Najera (what happend to that guy anyway), the guy from Mexico who cheated on his spanish tests at Cornerstone high school.

[Phenomanul]

Well there is always Edwardo Najera (what happend to that guy anyway), the guy from Mexico who cheated on his spanish tests at Cornerstone high school.

Your point was??? I know dozens of Anglo-Americans who cheated on their english tests? As bad as cheating is, this speaks more about Najera's scholastic aptitudes more than his quality as a player or his hussle on the floor. Eduardo is a 'poor man's' Malik Rose (Referencing the base state when Malik plays like vintage Malik).

Besides there are other Latinos in the NBA that are worthy of merit.
Carlos Arroyo
Raul Lopez
Trevor Ariza
Andres Nocioni
Pepe Sanchez (where did he go???)

And some that had a fan base locally like....
Vinny Del Negro

Anyways...

[Ghost Writer]

We have to expect the triple teams on Duncan to come in the 4th quarters these playoffs.

Manu or Parker alone will not be able to make up for a stifled Duncan.

Together, they can help the Spurs win even if Duncan is not effective.

[GoSpurs21]

KG, Rasheed Wallace, there's twoIf this is in responce to my saying that no one stops Duncan in the playoffs. I dont remember when the wolfs or blazers knocked the Spurs out of the playoffs in the last 6 years. I guess this happened in the bazaaro world.

Besides, KG and Wallace only cancelled out Duncan, they didnt stop him.

[Drachen]

Your point was??? I know dozens of Anglo-Americans who cheated on their english tests? As bad as cheating is, this speaks more about Najera's scholastic aptitudes more than his quality as a player or his hussle on the floor. Eduardo is a 'poor man's' Malik Rose (Referencing the base state when Malik plays like vintage Malik).

Besides there are other Latinos in the NBA that are worthy of merit.
Carlos Arroyo
Raul Lopez
Trevor Ariza
Andres Nocioni
Pepe Sanchez (where did he go???)

And some that had a fan base locally like....
Vinny Del Negro

Anyways...

Look I hadnt read that far into the post when I posted that, I didnt realize this was going to turn into a serious debate, I just wanted to bring up Najera so I could recant the story of how he got caught cheating on his spanish test at cornerstone. (my friend went to HS with him and apparently he was a little bitch then too). Other than that, when you guys figure out what to call Hispanics/Latinos/Chicanos/etc., please let me know, as I am white and have gotten dirty looks and comments when using these different words around different people.

[E20]

If he played Euro ball then he's a European player. That's how I think. Other people think different. I'm not saying he's European I'm saying he's an European player.

[deepsouth]

Look I hadnt read that far into the post when I posted that, I didnt realize this was going to turn into a serious debate, I just wanted to bring up Najera so I could recant the story of how he got caught cheating on his spanish test at cornerstone. (my friend went to HS with him and apparently he was a little bitch then too). Other than that, when you guys figure out what to call Hispanics/Latinos/Chicanos/etc., please let me know, as I am white and have gotten dirty looks and comments when using these different words around different people.
Hey Dracher.
The "hispanics/latinos/chicanos" terms are somehow derogatory (or may be so understood) when used by anybody from outside the group, somehow as a mirror image of "gringo".
We do call ourselves south-americans or latin-americans when we try to look as the things we have in common (that are really many); and mexicans, argentinians, etc when we are trying to stress our differences.
By the way we call you people, north-americans, the "gringo" apelation is not so nice.
All of this, of course, when talking of people born outside the US. You should know better than me why you get a dirty look when you call some connatural of yours "chicano".

[ALVAREZ6]

Pepe Sanchez (where did he go???)
Anyways...

Spain.

[ALVAREZ6]

Look I hadnt read that far into the post when I posted that, I didnt realize this was going to turn into a serious debate, I just wanted to bring up Najera so I could recant the story of how he got caught cheating on his spanish test at cornerstone. (my friend went to HS with him and apparently he was a little bitch then too). Other than that, when you guys figure out what to call Hispanics/Latinos/Chicanos/etc., please let me know, as I am white and have gotten dirty looks and comments when using these different words around different people.

...one stupid fuck meng.

[E20]

I got my Spanish book with me. Argentines are called Argentinos/as.
People from Puerto Rico are called Puertoriqucano(sp) etc etc. Too much to remeber I had to cheat on that portion of my test.

But, if a guy plays in the NBA isn't he called an NBA player? So since all the leagues in Europe (Italy, Spain, France, England, Germany etc.) are called European Leagues wouldn't it make sense that they should be called Euro Players? Even though they're not from European heritage but this is just sticking basketball.

[boutons]

"a guy plays in the NBA isn't he called an NBA player?"

A guy who plays is a playo.

A guy who plays but is really a little bitch is a playa.

[waly.mg]

Manu played Euro. So he counts.

Manu now is playing in Usa but he is´t an american

But he Born in American Continent in Latinamerica

And TD born in Virgin Island and he´s American

But Parker and Udrih never are americans, although they play in america

[1Parker1]

"But he Born in American Continent in Latinamerica"

????????? Please explain Waly. I thought Manu was born in Argentina? What's an American Continent? Do you mean, North America?

[boutons]

"Parker .... never are americans"

Parker's father is American so Tony was born with American citizenship.

.

[Rick Von Braun]

"But he Born in American Continent in Latinamerica"

????????? Please explain Waly. I thought Manu was born in Argentina? What's an American Continent? Do you mean, North America?The division of continents is different depending on where you got your education. Most people in South America and Spain are taught that South America and North America are one unique continent (called "America"). In the US, we are taught that South and North America are two different continents.

I guess it doesn't really matter as long as we know what we are talking about.

[Rick Von Braun]

"Parker .... never are americans"

Parker's father is American so Tony has been a US citizen since birth.

.Ha! The big loophole of international rules for citizenship.

Most countries, including US, along with the rest of North and South America, France, UK, Holland, Sweden, etc. adhere to the Citizenship by Birth principle (jus solis), i.e. citizenship is granted due to birth within the country. Birth in the country automatically confers citizenship regardless of the parents' citizenship or status.

Almost all countries adhere to the principle of Citizenship by Descent (jus sanguinis), i.e., citizenship of a nation is passed on to a child based upon at least one of the parents being a citizen of that nation, regardless of the child's actual country of birth. Though most countries adhere to the principle of citizenship by descent, they differ on some factors (father's vs. mother's rights, citizenship of one or both parents, the marital status of the parents, and others). Some countries like Germany, Swiss, Austria, etc. adhere to jus sanguinis exclusively.

Tony is an interesting case. His father is American, his mother is French, and he was born in Belguim. If Belgium has jus solis, he could have triple citizenship... Belgium (jus solis), French (mother's right) and American (father's right).

I think the father's rights have some restrictions in the US, but his father could argue that his child was born while he was working in Europe. I really don't think he is a Belgium citizen (he probably left when he was a child), but he could probably apply if he really wanted AND Belgium adheres to the jus solis concept (not sure). Tony probably has dual citizenship, French and American.

[boutons]

"I think the father's rights have some restrictions in the US"

There's always catch somewhere, and there have been a lot of jingo-istic gotchas in the past (eg, a US kid born overseas used to have to visit USA for some time before the 18th birthday to retain citizenship or something like that (but the USA wouldn't pay for the airline ticket, only force you to do it). Another was that US citizens couldn't have dual citizenship. dumbass red-state/redneck sh!t), but most them have been removed. I think you still lose US citizenship for joining a foreign country's military/national service or police force, IIRC.