McDonald: Spurs' Udrih, Vaughn unlikely to be healthy for opener

[some_user86]

Basketball: Spurs' Udrih, Vaughn unlikely to be healthy for opener

Web Posted: 10/24/2007 10:55 PM CDT

Jeff McDonald
Express-News Staff Writer

ORLANDO, Fla. — The Spurs got one point guard back when Tony Parker returned to action a week ago. The prognosis is still cloudy for Parker's two most prominent backups.
Jacque Vaughn (strained calf) and Beno Udrih (fractured finger) each missed his fifth preseason game Tuesday at Miami.

Both were injured early in training camp and have not practiced since.

For Udrih, the layoff has been most painful.

Last year, Udrih missed most of camp with a balky hamstring. Hoping to make amends, he arrived in San Antonio two weeks early this year, with plans to take extra time to prepare his body for the rigors of two-a-days.

Three days into practice, he broke the index finger on his shooting hand while reaching in for a steal.

"I think somebody has something against me," Udrih said with a sad laugh. "I'm cursed."

Udrih still has a cast on his left hand. It isn't scheduled to come off until a week from today — by then the Spurs already will have played two regular-season games.

Vaughn is also in danger of missing Tuesday's opener against Portland and possibly more.

Coach Gregg Popovich said he is hopeful Vaughn could return at some point next week, but the Spurs are hesitant to rush him.

"This is something where, if he hurts it again, he might be out a month," Popovich said. "It's early enough that we get to make sure he's healed."

Spurs waive pair: The Spurs waived Keith Langford and Kris Lang on Wednesday, trimming their roster to 16. They will have to make one more cut before the league's Oct. 29 roster deadline.

The final spot is likely to come down to a pair of rookies — second-round pick Marcus Williams or free agent Darius Washington.

Age vs. experience: As he has in practically every NBA city for the past few years — and as he probably will again tonight in Orlando — Popovich fielded questions from the media in Miami about what it's like to coach the oldest team in the league.

By now, he's gotten pretty adroit with his answers.

"It's like if you're an older team, and you win, you're an experienced, well-oiled, veteran machine, Popovich said. "And if you lose, then you're just old."

"It's gotten kind of comical," he added.

===========

I hope this wasn't posted already.

[some_user86]

The final spot is likely to come down to a pair of rookies — second-round pick Marcus Williams or free agent Darius Washington.

With the news that neither Udrih or Vaughn will be ready by the time the season begins, doesn't it seem more likely that Washington maybe kept over Williams? I sure hope so :hungry:

[Kori Ellis]

With the news that neither Udrih or Vaughn will be ready by the time the season begins, doesn't it seem more likely that Washington maybe kept over Williams? I sure hope so :hungry:

Seems that way. But they might just trust Barry/Manu to backup Tony for a couple games.

[timvp]

It's interesting that the Spurs are leaking out information saying that Vaughn might miss games into the season. That would help the FO save face if they decide to keep Washington over Williams. They can point to the need for a backup point guard to start the season. It'd also keep Williams' stock low in case the Spurs/Toros want to pick him in the NBDL draft.

I still expect Washington to get axed ... but it's looking more and more like it'll be a difficult decision for the Spurs.

[picnroll]

Can't conceive of the Spurs going into the season with one PG. Not just the wear and tear it places on Parker that they're trying to go easy on but practices and the added work for May and Barry.

Vaughn's injury may prove invaluable in preventing a Buford ego driven bad choice.

[ploto]

It's interesting that the Spurs are leaking out information saying that Vaughn might miss games into the season. That would help the FO save face if they decide to keep Washington over Williams. They can point to the need for a backup point guard to start the season.

Bingo- give that man a prize!

And then watch how quickly Vaughn heals.

[Holt's Cat]

It's interesting that the Spurs are leaking out information saying that Vaughn might miss games into the season. That would help the FO save face if they decide to keep Washington over Williams. They can point to the need for a backup point guard to start the season. It'd also keep Williams' stock low in case the Spurs/Toros want to pick him in the NBDL draft.

I still expect Washington to get axed ... but it's looking more and more like it'll be a difficult decision for the Spurs.


So the Spurs may very well cost themselves a talent because they are unwilling to admit one of two mistakes (Udrih & Williams). Grand.

[dougp]

Ugh, just take the fuckin hit and axe Udrih ... Washington and Williams are both better than him, Holt just needs to deal with the few extra million on the LT.

[2centsworth]

Washington is the new RUDY!

[Big P]

I see no use for Williams..we know that Beno is difficult to trade & the Spurs will not eat his contract, so what makes the most sense to me would be to cut Williams & keep Washington.

[SenorSpur]

Ugh, just take the fuckin hit and axe Udrih ... Washington and Williams are both better than him, Holt just needs to deal with the few extra million on the LT.

Holt wouldn't take the it until the expiration of the Feb trade deadline. I imagine some team would be desparate enough to pickup Udrih before then.

[FromWayDowntown]

It's interesting that the Spurs are leaking out information saying that Vaughn might miss games into the season. That would help the FO save face if they decide to keep Washington over Williams. They can point to the need for a backup point guard to start the season. It'd also keep Williams' stock low in case the Spurs/Toros want to pick him in the NBDL draft.

I still expect Washington to get axed ... but it's looking more and more like it'll be a difficult decision for the Spurs.

If you really buy into the face-saving notion, the fact that this story is placed immediately above a tidbit noting that the final cut is likely to be between Washington and Williams -- something most people would know -- one could surmise that the Spurs were already seriously considering whether to keep Washington, but now are giving themselves publicly-noticed reasons for making that decision.

[loveforthegame]

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/48747/20071025/knicks_waive_nichols_and_jordan/

I wasn't sure where to put this and a new thread seemed unnecessary. The Knicks waived Nichols today. I know a lot of people wanted him over Williams.

[Bruno]

If Spurs want to keep Washington and if they still have a slight hope that Williams become one day a good nba player, they should waive or trade Beno.

If Spurs want to keep Washington and if they think that Williams will be a bust for sure, they should waive him but it will too mean either their scounting job on him as been horrible or that they are doing a big mistake by waiving him.

[SenorSpur]

No offense to JV because he was serviceable last year, but I don't like him in the role of primary backup PG.

[picnroll]

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/48747/20071025/knicks_waive_nichols_and_jordan/

I wasn't sure where to put this and a new thread seemed unnecessary. The Knicks waived Nichols today. I know a lot of people wanted him over Williams.
Waive Williams dump Beno somehow and sign Nichols and keep Washington. Nichols could be that swingman of the future the Spurs will need.

[2centsworth]

I hope RUDY makes it, but dumping Williams would put the spotlight on what a piss poor job RC has done the past few years.

[Mitch Cumsteen]

Washington is the new RUDY!
Technically, he's the new James White.

[AFBlue]

I understand Williams has been BAD, but I don't think the Spurs anticipated him coming in right away and contributing either. When they drafted him, I think they looked at his defensive ability and made a commitment to work with him on improving his offensive game. I just can't see him being waived after such a short time.

If Vaughn and Beno were going to be out for a considerably long time (well into the regular season), I think Washington would have a chance or a move would have been made to acquire another PG. But the Spurs can get by easily with running Manu as the backup PG and giving more minutes to Barry in the backcourt as well. Again, we're not talking long-term, probably no more than 10 games.

And to the guy touting Nichols...it ain't gonna happen. Nor will it happen with Byars. Both of these guys were available when the Spurs picked at #33 and the Spurs passed in favor of Williams. Obviously they saw something they didn't like in those two and saw something they did like in Williams.

[AFBlue]

I hope RUDY makes it, but dumping Williams would put the spotlight on what a piss poor job RC has done the past few years.

RC takes risks on draft night. He goes for developmental no-name players. Sometimes he comes through and sometimes he strikes out.

Right now Mahinmi looks like a questionable pick, but this kid has the potential to be a beast. If he turns into a beast in two years will you be questioning RC then?

And what about Splitter? How was that a bad pick?

To be honest, that's not even the point...

The real point is that RC is allowed to take those risks on draft night because he has built a championship-contending team year in and year out by piecing veteran role players with his core and not by relying on draft night selections/rookies to fill critical roles. Guys like Bowen and Horry will be gone in a couple years and the ones that come in behind them (Udoka, Bonner?) won't be green rookies or flashy superstars...they'll be quality role players.

Bottom Line: If RC thinks Mahinmi could be the next Robinson and Williams the next Elliott, why not take a chance on them and see if they pan out? In the meantime, the Spurs will continue to build their championship-calibur teams without having to count on that coming true.

[Mr. Body]

I don't think Demetrius Nichols, Derrick Byars, or Marcus Wiliams will be heard of much in this league, ever.

[Mr. Body]

RC takes risks on draft night. He goes for developmental no-name players. Sometimes he comes through and sometimes he strikes out.

Right now Mahinmi looks like a questionable pick, but this kid has the potential to be a beast. If he turns into a beast in two years will you be questioning RC then?

And what about Splitter? How was that a bad pick?

To be honest, that's not even the point...

The real point is that RC is allowed to take those risks on draft night because he has built a championship-contending team year in and year out by piecing veteran role players with his core and not by relying on draft night selections/rookies to fill critical roles. Guys like Bowen and Horry will be gone in a couple years and the ones that come in behind them (Udoka, Bonner?) won't be green rookies or flashy superstars...they'll be quality role players.

Bottom Line: If RC thinks Mahinmi could be the next Robinson and Williams the next Elliott, why not take a chance on them and see if they pan out? In the meantime, the Spurs will continue to build their championship-calibur teams without having to count on that coming true.

I don't think anybody dislikes the Mahinmi pick anymore. He has a good amount of promise and is a likeable, hard-working guy, even if he's years away from true production.

As for Williams, I don't blame Buford for taking a shot at an iffy pick. It's just... Marcus Williams? What a stretch. It was a stretch when it happened and it was little wonder he wasn't that great in summer league. Ok, we probably expected him to be a little better, but to be so lousy was a surprise.

Cutting a recent second round draft pick isn't a terrible thing. It just happened to the Sixers and Knicks (who had overflowing rosters), even if they are two of the worst run teams in the league. We just coulda wished the Spurs used the pick more wisely. In my opinion, Williams doesn't belong on an NBA roster this year, much less a championship-caliber roster where he won't fill a need and there's a player right beside him who does.

[Darkwaters]

Darius Washington>Marcus Williams>Beno Udrih

Make the right choice front office.

[Darkwaters]

In my opinion, Williams doesn't belong on an NBA roster this year, much less a championship-caliber roster where he won't fill a need and there's a player right beside him who does.

That is the most crucial aspect of this whole situation.

[AFBlue]

In my opinion, Williams doesn't belong on an NBA roster this year, much less a championship-caliber roster where he won't fill a need and there's a player right beside him who does.


That is the most crucial aspect of this whole situation.

I don't see how Darius Washington fills a need for this team? I don't see how any player fighting for the 15th spot fills a need for this team?

The 15th player is either meant to be an over-the-hill veteran that is mostly good for waiving towels and occasional spot duty when one of the bench guys takes a night off, or it's meant to be a young guy looking to be developed in practice with the big squad or in games with the NBADL team.

If you want to say that Washington deserves a spot because he's a better prospect than Williams and will benefit from development moreso than Williams, that's fine. But to suggest that either is going to contribute or fills a need, is rediculous.

To be honest, I think Mr. Body's is probably more right than wrong when he says none of these guys (to include Marcus Williams) will be legit NBA players. But my point is that an investment was made less than 6 months ago in Williams to see if he could develop into something more and I doubt that experiment is over.

[Mr. Body]

I don't see how Darius Washington fills a need for this team? I don't see how any player fighting for the 15th spot fills a need for this team?

The 15th player is either meant to be an over-the-hill veteran that is mostly good for waiving towels and occasional spot duty when one of the bench guys takes a night off, or it's meant to be a young guy looking to be developed in practice with the big squad or in games with the NBADL team.

If you want to say that Washington deserves a spot because he's a better prospect than Williams and will benefit from development moreso than Williams, that's fine. But to suggest that either is going to contribute or fills a need, is rediculous.

To be honest, I think Mr. Body's is probably more right than wrong when he says none of these guys (to include Marcus Williams) will be legit NBA players. But my point is that an investment was made less than 6 months ago in Williams to see if he could develop into something more and I doubt that experiment is over.

I've been making the argument that Washington fills the position of greatest need, at least far above Williams. Perhaps I overstate, but back-up point guard is a position of vital need. Beno Udrih is a failure and won't be on the team next year, besides. Jacque Vaughn, while he has good feelings toward him, is not exceptionally talented and more of a stop-gap to begin with, and may have no more than one more year of ball left in him after this one.

Therefore, other than an older Vaughn, we only have one point guard on the roster next year, and it's Parker. Meanwhile, good back-ups can be hard to come by.

So, unless we think Williams is the 'long three' we need as a Bowen replacement (which he's not all that big to begin with), Washington fills a need much better and potentially much faster. And in a very cheap way.

[AFBlue]

So, unless we think Williams is the 'long three' we need as a Bowen replacement (which he's not all that big to begin with), Washington fills a need much better and potentially much faster. And in a very cheap way.

That is, if he is signed to a multi-year deal. Because, as you pointed out there are already three PGs on the roster for this year and there are at least two on the roster for next year.

Is Washington SO good that he'll get picked up on a multi-year deal before the Spurs are able to sign him in Summer '08 when there is a legitimate need?

While I agree that the PG position is certainly one of the weaker positions, I just don't buy that Washington could contribute this year if he's signed or that the Spurs would carry 4 point guards on their roster to marginalize that weakness.

[picnroll]

Pop has said Washington has the talent to be an NBA player. Haven't heard any quotes from him about Williams along those lines. We know Beno isn't an NBA level player already.

[Mr. Body]

That is, if he is signed to a multi-year deal. Because, as you pointed out there are already three PGs on the roster for this year and there are at least two on the roster for next year.

Is Washington SO good that he'll get picked up on a multi-year deal before the Spurs are able to sign him in Summer '08 when there is a legitimate need?

While I agree that the PG position is certainly one of the weaker positions, I just don't buy that Washington could contribute this year if he's signed or that the Spurs would carry 4 point guards on their roster to marginalize that weakness.

Well, I think there's only 2 points on the current roster, considering Beno a non-entity. And a broken-down Vaughn as our only point guard next year behind Parker isn't too promising to me, so I'd prefer to take a chance on Washington, who has the skills and gumption to become a solid 2nd PG in this league.

[Mr. Body]

Pop has said Washington has the talent to be an NBA player. Haven't heard any quotes from him about Williams along those lines. We know Beno isn't an NBA level player already.

Sharp, succinct, and correct.

[2centsworth]

RC takes risks on draft night. He goes for developmental no-name players. Sometimes he comes through and sometimes he strikes out.

Right now Mahinmi looks like a questionable pick, but this kid has the potential to be a beast. If he turns into a beast in two years will you be questioning RC then?

And what about Splitter? How was that a bad pick?

To be honest, that's not even the point...

The real point is that RC is allowed to take those risks on draft night because he has built a championship-contending team year in and year out by piecing veteran role players with his core and not by relying on draft night selections/rookies to fill critical roles. Guys like Bowen and Horry will be gone in a couple years and the ones that come in behind them (Udoka, Bonner?) won't be green rookies or flashy superstars...they'll be quality role players.

Bottom Line: If RC thinks Mahinmi could be the next Robinson and Williams the next Elliott, why not take a chance on them and see if they pan out? In the meantime, the Spurs will continue to build their championship-calibur teams without having to count on that coming true.
I think Pop the GM pieced the team together. Plus, every time there's a big name free agent I always hear Pop is more involved in recruiting than RC. RC's biggest responsibility IMO is to find some steals in the draft. Of course he will strike out here and there, but this guy is 0-10 since being the GM. We don't know about Splitter yet.

[AFBlue]

Well, I think there's only 2 points on the current roster, considering Beno a non-entity. And a broken-down Vaughn as our only point guard next year behind Parker isn't too promising to me, so I'd prefer to take a chance on Washington, who has the skills and gumption to become a solid 2nd PG in this league.

You can disregard Beno and assume Vaughn will breakdown (though I just think he'll continue to bring his steady, barely average game to the table), but I don't think the Spurs will.

Maybe I'll eat crow, but IMO they will not carry 4 point guards on the roster this season. I wouldn't be suprised to see Darius on the roster next season, but I just don't see him on this year's roster unless Beno is waived/traded or one of the existing PGs suffers a long-term injury.

[Mr. Body]

You're probably right. I'm just making a case that we're going to have to hunt for a back-up PG very, very soon. As soon as next summer. So why not start now, when there's not even any hunting involved?

[AFBlue]

I think Pop the GM pieced the team together. Plus, every time there's a big name free agent I always hear Pop is more involved in recruiting than RC. RC's biggest responsibility IMO is to find some steals in the draft. Of course he will strike out here and there, but this guy is 0-10 since being the GM. We don't know about Splitter yet.

Tony Parker...Manu Ginobili...

Yeah those are some real "zeros" :rolleyes

And it's obvious that Pop plays a role in recruiting FAs, but it's the GMs job to get those players at a reasonable price and make sure they'll fit the system.

Has RC made some gaffes? Yeah I think so. But he's incredibly underappreciated on this forum by a bunch of dillusional know-it-all fans who think they could do a better job.

[AFBlue]

You're probably right. I'm just making a case that we're going to have to hunt for a back-up PG very, very soon. As soon as next summer. So why not start now, when there's not even any hunting involved?

I certainly see your point, but what's wrong with a little hunting? You don't think the Spurs could be competitive in the draft/FA market next year?

I for one, wonder if Spanoulis would be interested in coming back across the pond if he was given opportunity to earn minutes at both guard positions. Yes, this could be dillusional...

I also think the Spurs should be able to snag another cheap veteran PG in FA.

And then of course there is the draft/training camp invitee that would have a shot at the third PG spot and be given the chance to overtake Vaughn as Parker's primary backup.

Bottom Line: Lots of options....none of which involve carrying 4 PGs on the roster this year. Though I have to say....I share your concern that it could be ugly in 08-09.

[timvp]

I actually do agree with the take that Washington increases the Spurs' likelihood of winning a championship this season more than keeping Williams and Beno would. If something happens to Parker or Vaughn, I could see Washington getting minutes in the regular season or the playoffs. Pop's nature is to always play a point guard instead of moving over a shooting guard even if the point guard is a scrub (Jason Hart in 2004 being a prime example).

I don't see a scenario in which Williams would ever play a major role this season. If the Spurs got decimated by injuries, Williams isn't good enough to fill a role in the regular season ... much less the playoffs. I guess there's a chance that he could possibly progress to the point to where he could help, but that isn't this season and probably not next season. In fact, if the Spurs got in a desperate situation, I'd expect them to go after a Keith Langford type player who could come in and be halfway decent. Williams has shown to be unreliable in summer league and preseason, it'd be suicide to rely on him in a game that means anything.

As far as Beno goes, he's pretty much worthless in the playoffs. If a team throws a full court press on him, he becomes the worst point guard in the NBA. The only time you can play him in the playoffs is if the Spurs are facing a horribly inept defensive team or if the Spurs move him to shooting guard.

Bottomline is Washington would increase the odds of the Spurs winning the championship this season. That increase might be like 0.001% increase but he's at least playable if an emergency situation arises. Beno isn't trustworthy in the playoffs and Williams won't be trustworthy on a basketball court for at least two years ... if ever.

[SenorSpur]

As I've said before, I simply wish R.C. and Pop would do a bit more homework on domestic talent.

[AFBlue]

I actually do agree with the take that Washington increases the Spurs' likelihood of winning a championship this season more than keeping Williams and Beno would. If something happens to Parker or Vaughn, I could see Washington getting minutes in the regular season or the playoffs. Pop's nature is to always play a point guard instead of moving over a shooting guard even if the point guard is a scrub (Jason Hart in 2004 being a prime example).

I don't see a scenario in which Williams would ever play a major role this season. If the Spurs got decimated by injuries, Williams isn't good enough to fill a role in the regular season ... much less the playoffs. I guess there's a chance that he could possibly progress to the point to where he could help, but that isn't this season and probably not next season. In fact, if the Spurs got in a desperate situation, I'd expect them to go after a Keith Langford type player who could come in and be halfway decent. Williams has shown to be unreliable in summer league and preseason, it'd be suicide to rely on him in a game that means anything.

As far as Beno goes, he's pretty much worthless in the playoffs. If a team throws a full court press on him, he becomes the worst point guard in the NBA. The only time you can play him in the playoffs is if the Spurs are facing a horribly inept defensive team or if the Spurs move him to shooting guard.

Bottomline is Washington would increase the odds of the Spurs winning the championship this season. That increase might be like 0.001% increase but he's at least playable if an emergency situation arises. Beno isn't trustworthy in the playoffs and Williams won't be trustworthy on a basketball court for at least two years ... if ever.

I don't disagree that Washington is potentially better than Beno and I understand that he could be more helpful if the squad was decimated by injury this year than Williams could be.

With that said, do you think they will carry 4 PGs on the roster? Do you think that they will consider the current injuries serious enough to keep this kid around for insurance?

I don't think so, but I guess time will tell.

[Mr. Body]

Why wouldn't they carry 4 PGs on the roster? If the 15th guy on the roster doesn't matter, what does it matter what position he plays?

[AFBlue]

Why wouldn't they carry 4 PGs on the roster? If the 15th guy on the roster doesn't matter, what does it matter what position he plays?

Good point.

Just using conventional wisdom and trying to figure out the last time the Spurs went with a four-PG roster.

Who knows...maybe they cut both and leave the 15th roster spot open in case someone gets injured and they have to get depth at whatever position is weakened by the injury.

[Mr. Body]

Here's another thing. Wasn't one of the lines about Marcus Williams as summer league started about how well he could handle the ball? The line disappeared when he couldn't do much of anything, but it seems they were projecting a need for a ball-handler.

[timvp]

With that said, do you think they will carry 4 PGs on the roster?It depends on whether the Spurs see Beno as an injured point guard who will come back or a waste of a contract. If he's a waste of a contract, Washington would be the third point guard.


Do you think that they will consider the current injuries serious enough to keep this kid around for insurance?The Spurs went into the 2003-04 season with five point guards -- Tony Parker, Anthony Carter, Alex Garcia, Jason Hart and Shane Heal. Four point guards ain't nothin' compared to that.

If Vaughn is actually going to miss regular season time, I'd look at the 2003-04 season as proof that the Spurs would rather have too many point guards than too few point guards. The Spurs were dealing with injuries to the point guard corps when they had five on the roster, however none of the players had a major injury. Even going into the playoffs that year, the Spurs had four point guards on the roster (Parker, Hart, Garcia and Charlie Ward).

We'll see what the Spurs do but with Vaughn and Beno being injured, Washington's chances improved. And it's not unprecedented for the Spurs to carry more than three point guards so I don't think that's an obstacle at this point.

[BeerIsGood!]

It all comes down to what they think Washington can do for them now vs. what they think Williams can do for them later. They go with the bigger perceived need.

[BeerIsGood!]

We'll find out soon enough exactly what they are thinking.

[Spurs Brazil]

Mike Bud was talking with Shoening on the pregame show and he said the coaches aren't worried about Vaughn and Beno out because DW is doing a great job.

He said great things about him

[timvp]

More good news for Washington:

Just now on the radio, Coach Bud talked very glowingly of him. He was asked about the injuries at the point guard position, he basically said that with Washington and their other point guards they feel better about their overall point guard position than they have in a while. He also said that Washington has made the Spurs stop and really think about what he's been able to do in the preseason.

That was the first time that I've heard a coach insinuate that Washington could have a future with the Spurs.

:wow

[timvp]

Mike Bud was talking with Shoening on the pregame show and he said the coaches aren't worried about Vaughn and Beno out because DW is doing a great job.

He said great things about him:lol

You beat me to it. But yeah, Bud seemed very high on Washington. To say they aren't worried about Vaughn and Udrih being injured because the Spurs have Washington is further good news for Washington fans.

[coopdogg3]

I really wish they would cut Beno (who is an obvious loser on this squad) rather than Marcus Williams (who MIGHT be productive at some point), but I guess that's asking a lot as Marcus would be a much cheaper cut.

[ChumpDumper]

If Vaughn's injury is that bad, it will be easy to see a White-like waiving of Williams with regrets in the next few days.

[Darkwaters]

More good news for Washington:

Just now on the radio, Coach Bud talked very glowingly of him. He was asked about the injuries at the point guard position, he basically said that with Washington and their other point guards they feel better about their overall point guard position than they have in a while. He also said that Washington has made the Spurs stop and really think about what he's been able to do in the preseason.

That was the first time that I've heard a coach insinuate that Washington could have a future with the Spurs.

:wow

:spin

[Darkwaters]

Mike Bud was talking with Shoening on the pregame show and he said the coaches aren't worried about Vaughn and Beno out because DW is doing a great job.

He said great things about him

Everytime somebody calls him DW I have to do a doubletake and realize that they mean "Darius Washington" and not "Darkwaters". Yea, me at PG...scary thought. Bet I could beat out Beno though....

[Joe Schmoogins]

RC takes risks on draft night. He goes for developmental no-name players. Sometimes he comes through and sometimes he strikes out.

Right now Mahinmi looks like a questionable pick, but this kid has the potential to be a beast. If he turns into a beast in two years will you be questioning RC then?

And what about Splitter? How was that a bad pick?

To be honest, that's not even the point...

The real point is that RC is allowed to take those risks on draft night because he has built a championship-contending team year in and year out by piecing veteran role players with his core and not by relying on draft night selections/rookies to fill critical roles. Guys like Bowen and Horry will be gone in a couple years and the ones that come in behind them (Udoka, Bonner?) won't be green rookies or flashy superstars...they'll be quality role players.

Bottom Line: If RC thinks Mahinmi could be the next Robinson and Williams the next Elliott, why not take a chance on them and see if they pan out? In the meantime, the Spurs will continue to build their championship-calibur teams without having to count on that coming true.


well said

[ChumpDumper]

Hell, Vaughn's injury might not even be that bad -- maybe it's being milked to give Darius more burn and could actually just be a cover for keeping Washington past the waiver deadline.

[timvp]

Hell, Vaughn's injury might not even be that bad -- maybe it's being milked to give Darius more burn and could actually just be a cover for keeping Washington past the waiver deadline.Exactly.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2022653&postcount=4

[Darkwaters]

Hell, Vaughn's injury might not even be that bad -- maybe it's being milked to give Darius more burn and could actually just be a cover for keeping Washington past the waiver deadline.

This is getting me giddy with excitement.

[2centsworth]

Dude... Rudy is going to make it.

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah, I don't know who is in the draft pool, so I couldn't comment on Williams draft position. Darius would almost be a lock to go #1 to Colorado since Pooh Jeter is gone.

[Russ]

It's interesting that the Spurs are leaking out information saying that Vaughn might miss games into the season. That would help the FO save face if they decide to keep Washington over Williams.

Bingo. This "news" is as phoney and self-serving as leaks about WMD in Iraq. :)

But I'd love to see the Spurs keep Washington over Williams. This guy is ripe for the picking, if not by the Spurs then by someone else ala Raja Bell and Haslem.

[timvp]

Darius would almost be a lock to go #1 to Colorado since Pooh Jeter is gone.That's if he wasn't claimed off waivers by an NBA team . . .

[ploto]

Hell, Vaughn's injury might not even be that bad -- maybe it's being milked to give Darius more burn and could actually just be a cover for keeping Washington past the waiver deadline.

And then watch how quickly Vaughn heals.

[FromWayDowntown]

I would think that even if Vaughn's injury isn't all that bad, the thing that's likely to keep him sidelined for a little while is the probability that he hasn't been able to run much on a leg with a strained calf. He may not be ready to go from a conditioning standpoint, even if the injury is healed or mostly healed. I'd be surprised if this was exaggeration of an injury to support a roster move; I suspect that Vaughn probably really won't be ready on Tuesday.

[Darkwaters]

Bingo. This "news" is as phoney and self-serving as leaks about WMD in Iraq. :)


Clever. In fact, a good analogy...except when you consider that it is a well known fact that Iraq DID have WMDs when they attempted genocide on all those Kurds.

Oh well.... :rolleyes

[Obstructed_View]

If Vaughn and Beno are missing games early, every minute of rest DW allows Parker is going to help the team IMO. In the '06 playoffs, Parker got hurt against the Kings in garbage time because Pop didn't trust anyone else to run the team. Williams can't do that.

[ChumpDumper]

Whatever works. If any of this leads to Beno's departure, I'm for it.

[FromWayDowntown]

If Vaughn and Beno are missing games early, every minute of rest DW allows Parker is going to help the team IMO. In the '06 playoffs, Parker got hurt against the Kings in garbage time because Pop didn't trust anyone else to run the team. Williams can't do that.

Yeah, but '08 Jacque Vaughn > '06 Nick Van Exel, probably. Vaughn, if healthy, is far more likely to be running the team in that situation if it arises in 2008.

[Obstructed_View]

Clever. In fact, a good analogy...except when you consider that it is a well known fact that Iraq DID have WMDs when they attempted genocide on all those Kurds.

Oh well.... :rolleyes
Yeah it always amazes me how people forget that he actually USED them against the Kurds and the Iranians. It also amazes me that folks can't keep their political opinions in the political forum where they belong.

[T Park]

It also amazes me that folks can't keep their political opinions in the political forum where they belong.

it also amazes me how many forum police we have here.

[Obstructed_View]

Yeah, but '08 Jacque Vaughn > '06 Nick Van Exel, probably.
In the long run, yes, but not if he's injured. If he's going to miss a month then Parker's playing 38 minutes a game. It doesn't seem worth it just to keep a guy that won't be ready to contribute for at least a year. The experiment's over. The Spurs tried to see if Williams could show them anything. I don't think he did.

[Obstructed_View]

it also amazes me how many forum police we have here.
You're entitled to your opinion. So am I. If you don't like it, there's the door.

[T Park]

you don't like it, there's the door.

Uh, yeah ok, been here longer than you kiddo, that aint happenin.

[FromWayDowntown]

In the long run, yes, but not if he's injured. If he's going to miss a month then Parker's playing 38 minutes a game. It doesn't seem worth it just to keep a guy that won't be ready to contribute for at least a year. The experiment's over. The Spurs tried to see if Williams could show them anything. I don't think he did.

I don't think Pop's going to play Parker for 38 minutes per night for very long, particularly early in the season, even if Vaughn and Udrih don't play all year and even if Williams makes the roster. Pop's not suicidal and he's also not that concerned with the early parts of the regular season.

[Obstructed_View]

I don't think Pop's going to play Parker for 38 minutes per night for very long, particularly early in the season, even if Vaughn and Udrih don't play all year and even if Williams makes the roster. Pop's not suicidal and he's also not that concerned with the early parts of the regular season.
If Vaughn and Udrih don't play all year you've got one point guard. If only it were that easy a decision. It looks like Williams is going to contribute nothing to the team this year. I'd say it's likely he'll still be looking for a team next summer.

Is it the regular season yet?

[some_user86]

Yeah it always amazes me how people forget that he actually USED them against the Kurds and the Iranians. It also amazes me that folks can't keep their political opinions in the political forum where they belong.

It amazes me when people ignore that he destroyed those stockpiles when our US-sponsored UN sanctions actually started working. He wasn't a threat and the WMDs were falsely trumped up for a personal agenda. The WMDs just weren't there in 2003.

We should have stayed focused on kicking OBL's ass in Afghanistan and brung it to Pakistan if necessary. What the hell was the Iraq war about? I don't think anyone in the civilian public can truthfully answer that.

Listen, I voted for Bush in 2004 (too young to vote in 2000). But fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

[Darkwaters]

It amazes me when people ignore that he destroyed those stockpiles when our US-sponsored UN sanctions actually started working. He wasn't a threat and the WMDs were falsely trumped up for a personal agenda. The WMDs just weren't there in 2003.

We should have stayed focused on kicking OSB's ass in Afghanistan and brung it to Pakistan if necessary. What the hell was the Iraq war about? I don't think anyone in the civilian public can truthfully answer that.

Listen, I voted for Bush in 2004 (too young to vote in 2000). But fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

The deal with Iraq is that they had sanctions for over a decade and never fully complied. Clinton was too busy getting blow jobs to actually care about doing a damn thing about it. And to tend to forget that even when we were doing weapons inspections on them they still never let the inspectors into half of the places they were supposed to. They never fully complied...not by a long shot.

Pakistan? Last I checked they're our ally. If you destabilize them any further they shift to a radical Islamic state that hates us. Don't be an idiot like Obama saying we need to "invade Pakistan".

Seriously though, why are we having this conversation here? Put it in the appropriate forum and we'll discuss it there. But it's unfair to everyone else to hijack this thread in this manner.

Sorry guys.

[some_user86]

The deal with Iraq is that they had sanctions for over a decade and never fully complied. Clinton was too busy getting blow jobs to actually care about doing a damn thing about it. And to tend to forget that even when we were doing weapons inspections on them they still never let the inspectors into half of the places they were supposed to. They never fully complied...not by a long shot.

Pakistan? Last I checked they're our ally. If you destabilize them any further they shift to a radical Islamic state that hates us. Don't be an idiot like Obama saying we need to "invade Pakistan".

Seriously though, why are we having this conversation here? Put it in the appropriate forum and we'll discuss it there. But it's unfair to everyone else to hijack this thread in this manner.

Sorry guys.

Some ally. The ISI and Army of Pakistan has top level spies and generals who frequently work in conjunction with radicals to wage terrorism. So far, it had been against just India. Now, with the incomplete invasion of Afghanistan al-Qaeda has fled to these same radical sympathesizers who are creating a new safe haven in Pakistan. Unfortunately, this hotbead of radical thought has shifted direction from supplying terrorism in India to now the US and Iraq. It's Afghanistan 2.0, but with Nukes. And an army full of generals and spy agency full of spies that is more than willing to cooperate with these radical elements. (Notice the recent attacks to topple Prime Minister-to-be Bhutto and current President Musharraf? Yeah, that's not possible without some level of support in the goverment.)


But, you're absolutely right. This belongs in the politcal forum. Of course, if you had just left sleeping dogs lie with Russ's rather funny joke, we wouldn't even be in this mess.

[Darkwaters]

Waive Beno!

There, back on topic.

[Obstructed_View]

It amazes me when people ignore that he destroyed those stockpiles when our US-sponsored UN sanctions actually started working. He wasn't a threat and the WMDs were falsely trumped up for a personal agenda. The WMDs just weren't there in 2003.

We should have stayed focused on kicking OBL's ass in Afghanistan and brung it to Pakistan if necessary. What the hell was the Iraq war about? I don't think anyone in the civilian public can truthfully answer that.

Listen, I voted for Bush in 2004 (too young to vote in 2000). But fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Stupidity like the above is why I play forum police, T Park.

[Mr. Body]

The deal with Iraq is that they had sanctions for over a decade and never fully complied. Clinton was too busy getting blow jobs to actually care about doing a damn thing about it. And to tend to forget that even when we were doing weapons inspections on them they still never let the inspectors into half of the places they were supposed to. They never fully complied...not by a long shot.

Pakistan? Last I checked they're our ally. If you destabilize them any further they shift to a radical Islamic state that hates us. Don't be an idiot like Obama saying we need to "invade Pakistan".

Seriously though, why are we having this conversation here? Put it in the appropriate forum and we'll discuss it there. But it's unfair to everyone else to hijack this thread in this manner.

Sorry guys.

I like you for a lot of reasons, but clearly your politics aren't a reason. The WMD issue is retarded at this point. Everyone knew they didn't have any. Weapons inspectors knew they didn't. The neo-cons just wanted a war, and specifically one in Iraq, for reasons they had already spelled out in their PNAC papers.

Iraq was fully under control in the Clinton years. They'd still be fully under control at this point if those criminals didn't criminally start something they didn't know how to win.

Next you'll blame the first WTC bombings and the US Cole incident on Clinton like some dittohead. First WTC bombings were punished and those involved were accountable, despite it happening a month after his inauguration. The US Cole incident was Bush's responsibility because it happened just before he was inaugurated. Guess what? They let bin Laden go free.

Cut Beno.

[Darkwaters]

I like you for a lot of reasons, but clearly your politics aren't a reason.

Clearly I can say the same about you. I have always respected your points and think you are generally one of the more level-headed and sensible posters on the board. However, on this issue I must respectfully disagree.


The WMD issue is retarded at this point. Everyone knew they didn't have any. Weapons inspectors knew they didn't. The neo-cons just wanted a war, and specifically one in Iraq, for reasons they had already spelled out in their PNAC papers.

Iraq was fully under control in the Clinton years. They'd still be fully under control at this point if those criminals didn't criminally start something they didn't know how to win.

Next you'll blame the first WTC bombings and the US Cole incident on Clinton like some dittohead. First WTC bombings were punished and those involved were accountable, despite it happening a month after his inauguration. The US Cole incident was Bush's responsibility because it happened just before he was inaugurated. Guess what? They let bin Laden go free.

Cut Beno.

I thought your statement through and came up with several witty, clearly stated and (in my opinion) superior arguments. But frankly, I see no reason to give them. Firstly, this is neither the time nor the place. And secondly, I doubt no matter how extensively we debate the topic that either of us will be able to sway the other's opinion. Our minds are made up, and any debate will simply create unnecessary friction between us. I consider you a forum friend, and see no reason to damage that in a fruitless debate that does nothing but allow us to flex our political muscles. Besides, I respect your right to voice your opinion and while I disagree with you, it is, indeed, your right. And as a member of the armed forces I would gladly fight to guard that freedom. So why make it come between us? Especially in a Spurs forum... Lets just cut Beno and be satisfied with that debate.

Invade Slovenia.

[some_user86]

Stupidity like the above is why I play forum police, T Park.

I'm sorry, but what?

Listen, I have my opinions and you have yours, so let's just cut the ad hominem attacks, shall we? I fail to see any non-rational thinking in my post. We can come to different conclusions based on our personal experiences. Having lived in those regions, I wager, more than any of you has shaped my experience quite differently. Living amongst Muslims as an outsider shows you their obvious humanity, but also exposes you to some elements that show the downside of any religion.

This whole mess wouldn't have started if you and Darkwaters would've left that stupid joke alone. But no. Instead we've got a nuclear war on a hot button issue.

I guess as long as their is a viewpoint that matches your personal opinion, it's okay to interject it into a Spurs article. But the minute someone disagrees, you suddenly become the 'forum police'.

How hypocritical.

BTW, sell Beno's ass for crack money... But Holt probably still won't let him go. I am thinking the only reason he's still around is that Holt uses his ass for target practice when he falls off the wagon or is too bored to screw his wife.

[Darkwaters]

So we'll know for certain on Monday what is happening to Mr. Washington, right?

What do we think the chances are that this goes down to the wire or that we hear some sort of resolution this weekend?

[Obstructed_View]

I guess as long as their is a viewpoint that matches your personal opinion, it's okay to interject it into a Spurs article. But the minute someone disagrees, you suddenly become the 'forum police'.

How hypocritical.
This isn't the first time I've told people to take political arguments to the political forum, and it has little to do with my views on the issue. I simply pointed out the factual inaccuracy of the original statement and have done about as well as anyone could reasonably expect to keep my opinion out of the discussion, other than to call you stupid for picking up the discussion and continuing to pollute this thread (which justifies my original suggestion).

If I were so inclined, I might be happy to educate you in a political debate, or to point out how mistaken you are, but you are not likely to listen, and this certainly isn't the place. I come here to get away from that shit, and I'm sure others that are completely opposed to my viewpoints do the same.

[Obstructed_View]

So we'll know for certain on Monday what is happening to Mr. Washington, right?

What do we think the chances are that this goes down to the wire or that we hear some sort of resolution this weekend?
I think the Spurs are going to probably try to shop Beno until the absolute last second. Any chance of being able to dump his salary on someone else is worth the effort.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

Sloth, purse-toting worthlessness I saidddddd

[Russ]

11 points tonight for Washington may have sealed a spot. (Although the unworthy Williams also had 5.)

[Holt's Cat]

Williams is raw but at this point I'd go with him over Beno simply because Williams seems interested in playing NBA basketball.

[T Park]

No the unworthy one is Udrih.

Williams at least is 20, wants to work hard, improve, and fills a need at SF with long arms.

[Mr. Body]

I'd take Washington first.

Williams second.

Then Beno.

Thus -- if possible, keep Washington and Williams. Even if it costs money.

If Beno must be kept, then say goodbye to Williams.

[Russ]

Beno >>>>>> Williams.

The conventional wisdom on Beno has undervalued him greatly.

Five years hence -- Beno in the league. Williams ????

[Holt's Cat]

Beno will club himself right out of this league. If not, he's one of those players with a decent scoring average who we know is not Spurs material. Beno's value right now to the Spurs is that his contact expires at the end of this season. Perhaps they will find a suitor for him, though he's been available for quite some time now.

[T Park]

What are you smokin russ.....

[Mr. Body]

Beno won't be in the league much longer.

[Russ]

What are you smokin russ.....
The anti-herd herb. :hat

[T Park]

The anti-herd herb.

Thats the same stuff Angel smokes.

[some_user86]

This isn't the first time I've told people to take political arguments to the political forum, and it has little to do with my views on the issue. I simply pointed out the factual inaccuracy of the original statement and have done about as well as anyone could reasonably expect to keep my opinion out of the discussion, other than to call you stupid for picking up the discussion and continuing to pollute this thread (which justifies my original suggestion).

If I were so inclined, I might be happy to educate you in a political debate, or to point out how mistaken you are, but you are not likely to listen, and this certainly isn't the place. I come here to get away from that shit, and I'm sure others that are completely opposed to my viewpoints do the same.

You know what? I would be very happy to let you educate me with your regurgitation of Fox News propaganda.

But I get the feeling you are hiding behind this whole "belongs in political forum" crap. So, let me make it easier for you. I have done what either you or Darkwaters should have done a long time ago. I created a copy of the relevant posts in a thread in the political forum. Please go ahead follow the link and educate me on just how wrong I am. Link: http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2025991

Unless you want to cop out by using the "I get enough of this at work" card.

--

There. That is the end of that topic. Anymore comments on this issue should be directed to http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2025991.

--

Beno will not be waived, Williams will remain on the team, and Washington will be picked up by Los Angeles. And thousands of us will cry on how this is the greatest tragedy since the Scola trade or since Raja Bell.

I will be more than happy to eat crow on this, though.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

Thy glove hath slapeth thine rivals face

[SenorSpur]

No the unworthy one is Udrih.

Williams at least is 20, wants to work hard, improve, and fills a need at SF with long arms.

Yeah, at least Williams has potential and a positive upside.

Beno is leveled out. Unless his attitude and outlook change, he's likely pissed away his opportunities at this level. Though I still believe some "bottom-feeding" team would likely take a flyer on him. For now, he's merely taking up roster and cap space.

[GSH]

If the Spurs were to just cut Benoh, he would still count against their cap. And any salary they paid to Washington would too. They could wind up going over the threshold by 50K and costing them another million plus in luxury tax. He could wind up being a really expensive acquisition.

As good as Washington has looked, it has still been pre-season action. And he has been totally loose because he has nothing to lose. He has handled himself well, and looked good. But I don't think any of you are suggesting that he is the same caliber as Tony Parker was in his rookie season. And I know everyone can't have forgotten what he was like in the playoffs that year.

In the playoffs, the teams are better overall, and they are playing a different level of basketball. The pressure of crunch time in the playoffs can't even be compared to free-wheeling in the pre-season. Parker felt it. And even though he handled it well for a rookie, there were times where he all but collapsed and Pop had to go with experience over speed and skills.

That being said, if the Spurs knew (and I mean really KNEW) exactly where the lux tax threshold was going to fall this year...and if they knew they had room to do it...I think they might consider dumping Benoh and signing the kid. They would probably have to give him some of JV's minutes through the regular season - both to let him learn the system, and to try and be sure that JV would be healthy come playoff time. Because there is one thing you can be certain of: no matter how good Washington has looked, he is still a rookie, and experience is gold in playoff crunch time. Benoh, whatever his negatives, has been through it all more than once. And because of that, he would still (almost certainly) be better than a rookie with the jitters.

It's no secret that the Spurs are an aging team - it gets mentioned in virtually every story about them this year. Strategically, they are trying to maximize the value of the remainder of Duncan's best years. They are bringing back a virtually intact roster from last season, which means that they are rolling the dice on another championship THIS season. Anything less than another ring this year will make that gamble a failure. And anything that waters down their chances THIS season would be a collosal strategic blunder.

Benoh was good enough to get picked up for the Rookie/Soph exhibition during All Star weekend a few years ago. I think a lot of Spurs fans have forgotten that. Pop's doghouse is a really rough place, and not everyone has had the stomach for it. I'm still not convinced that it hasn't made Benoh a worse player. (I think it had the same effect on Malik Rose.) With his playoff experience, I think he would hold as much interest as a backup for some other team as, say, Jason Hart. If the Spurs can structure a deal that would assure that they wouldn't get hit with the Lux Tax, they could do it. Otherwise, there are worst things than standing pat.