Hollinger: Manu for MVP and 6th man [Archive]

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SilverPlayer

11-14-2007, 12:46 AM

I don't know how this can not have been posted but I don't see it.

People ask me the same questions every year at this time: What's surprised you? What's happened so far that you didn't expect?

This can be a harder question than it seems. Over any six- or seven-game period, almost every player and team in the league will perform at least slightly better or slightly worse than expected, just due to normal random variation.

That said, some early trends are worth noting. Inevitably, some players and teams have done so much better or worse than we expected that they have raised a number of eyebrows around the league. Today I want to take a closer look at those players and teams and see what they're doing differently.

Let's begin with the usual disclaimer: It's early. Real early. We're only two weeks into the season, and there is still a lot of basketball left to be played. So the teams and players below aren't necessarily destined to continue down this path.

But we've had enough games that these players and teams bear watching over the coming weeks and months. Either they'll continue surprising/disappointing us, or they'll revert back to their usual production and we'll forget this two-week blip ever happened.

We'll start with the good news before we move to the bad:

SURPRISES

Manu Ginobili, Spurs
Like I said, it's still early. Really, really early. But just for kicks, let me throw a few questions out there, because we might need to start coming up with answers for them soon: Is it possible for a sixth man to be the MVP? If Ginobili pulls it off, don't we pretty much have to give him Most Improved too? And at what point should Alex English worry about his status as "best second-round draft pick ever" being in jeopardy?

While the media's agreement with the league stipulates that nobody can talk about the Spurs until June, I'm going to break it today, because through seven games, Ginobili has been unbelievable. He leads the league in player efficiency rating by a wide margin while averaging 27.7 points, 7.0 rebounds and 6.4 assists per 40 minutes. Also, he's seemingly on his way to completing his evolution from slasher to shooter by hitting 42.9 percent of his 3s and taking nearly half his shots from the great beyond.

Especially notable is his recently developed knack for hitting step-back 3s off the dribble going to his left -- a shot that is more or less impossible but one he knocks down routinely. (Seriously, for all you rec league players, try this some time. If you're right-handed, try taking a hard dribble right, stepping back with your right foot, and then launching from distance. Half the time you'll miss the basket by 4 feet).

Boston's defense
I can believe that the Celtics are first in the league in offensive efficiency through five games. What I have a hard time fathoming is that they're also first in defensive efficiency. This is not the stereotype of a dominating defense, for several reasons. For instance, they employ Ray Allen. Also, they're a body short in the frontcourt, they have no wing stoppers or shot-blockers, and their bench leaves most analysts uninspired.

Nonetheless, Boston has suffocated opposing offenses throughout its first five games, most impressively during its demolition of Denver's high-scoring outfit at the Garden on Friday. If they continue defending this way, the name "Tom Thibodeau" is going to come up an awful lot this season. Jeff Van Gundy's top assistant in Houston a year ago, Thibodeau is a highly regarded defensive coach the Celtics brought in to upgrade their effort at that end.

Boston wasn't the only team to hire him this summer -- Thibodeau originally went to Washington, but quit the Wizards after four days when he discovered coach Eddie Jordan and GM Ernie Grunfeld weren't on the same page, or even in the same book. In fact, they weren't even using the same alphabet. Literary metaphors aside, Washington's (and Houston's) loss was Boston's gain, and if he can keep this up, the Celtics' title hopes are much more realistic than many surmised.

Kevin Martin, Kings
Here's why Sacramento's five-year, $55 million extension for Martin made sense: He keeps improving. Few players have been as diligent about constantly upgrading their arsenal, and the result is that Martin has gone from being an end-of-the-bench scrub as a rookie to one of the league's most dangerous scorers three years later.

Martin is third in the league in scoring right now, right behind Kobe Bryant and Tracy McGrady even though he averages only 16.4 field goal attempts per game, well below Bryant's 21.0 and McGrady's 21.9. The key is efficiency: Martin's true shooting percentage is 62.0, which if he keeps it up would mark the third straight year he finished with a TS% above 60 -- a flabbergasting feat for a guy who scores in the high 20s, especially one on a team as devoid of help as his Kings are. He's become both a deadly outside shooter and a free-throw magnet, and unlike a lot of big-time scorers, he never takes a bad shot.

Richard Jefferson, Nets
I guess the ankle's OK, then. Jefferson had five 20-point games all last season, and seven straight to open the 2007-08 campaign. He's scoring 26.9 points per game to help the Nets offset dismal starts from two other starters (more on that below), and doing it at a high rate of efficiency (49.1 percent from the floor with a high rate of free throws). And as an added surprise, he's also shooting a scalding 67-for-69 from the charity stripe.

Jason Terry, Mavericks
Of the top three players in PER, two come off the bench for contenders in the Southwest Division. Terry would be the front-runner for Sixth Man honors if not for Manu Mania in San Antonio, but on their own his accomplishments in his new role are pretty impressive. Not only is he scoring in bunches -- 26.3 points per 40 minutes on 56.8 percent shooting -- but he's also taking care of the rock, with just six miscues in six games.

Throw in 53.6 percent shooting on 3-pointers and, in sporting an absurd 70.5 TS%, the Jet makes Kevin Martin look like Antoine Walker.

John Salmons, Kings
He's playing in anonymity in Sacramento, but fantasy owners are building statues of this guy because of how well he's played while Ron Artest and Mike Bibby are out. He's also making an early bid for the Most Improved trophy. In five NBA seasons he never averaged more than 8.5 points per game, but so far he's pumping in 20.7 a contest , thanks in part to a massive increase in free-throw attempts.

He may see his minutes and shots decline precipitously once Sacramento's other two stars return, but in the early going he's been a revelation who has helped take some of the heat off Martin.

Chris Kaman, Clippers
L.A. needed its center to step up since Elton Brand is going to miss most of the season, and he's done exactly that while helping the Clippers to a surprising 4-2 start. Actually, "step up" doesn't quite describe it -- he appears to be in vastly better shape and is dominating inside.

Kaman's 18.5 points and 13.5 boards per game and 55.4 percent shooting are eye-popping, with the per-game averages nearly doubling last season's output. If he keeps it up, L.A.'s hopes of staying in the playoff hunt until Brand returns don't seem nearly as far-fetched.

Marvin Williams, Hawks
With Chris Paul and Deron Williams tearing up the league, at least the Hawks can take some solace in the fact that their Williams -- the man they drafted ahead of those two talented point men -- is putting up some numbers of his own. His stats are up across the board, but the one to take note of is the nearly six free-throw attempts per game.

If he keeps attacking like that, he'll have a good season, even if his 55.9 percent shooting mark cools down some. And he's only 21, so there's plenty of room to grow.

Rudy Gay, Grizzlies
Gay gave no indication during his rookie year that he could be a nightly scoring threat, but he's doing it in a big way to start his sophomore season. Through five games he's averaging 20.6 points on 50 percent shooting, and has appeared much more confident shooting the 3-pointer -- something he's doing nearly three times as often as he did last season.

His numbers would be even better if he'd avoid foul trouble -- his 20 fouls in five games are an awful lot for a perimeter player, and have kept his minutes down in a few games.

Kelenna Azubuike, Warriors
Golden State may look lost without Stephen Jackson, but his replacement is doing just fine, thanks. Azubuike has arguably been the team's best player during an 0-5 start, shooting 53.1 percent while averaging 18.8 points per game as Jackson's replacement.

He even threw in 11 boards in his last outing, which is more than Jacko gets in a week. He'll probably go back to the bench once Jackson returns, but expect his early results to earn him extended minutes regardless.

Chris Wilcox, Sonics
It's not just that Wilcox is playing well, though he is -- he's averaging 16.7 points, 8.8 boards and shooting 56.5 percent through seven games. It seems there's a lot more polish and professionalism than we saw in his first five seasons. Maybe we're being fooled by two good weeks, but he looks to be in better shape and his offensive repertoire seems to have expanded beyond the flying one-handed dunk down the lane.

I'm not sure he was in the Sonics' long-term plans when this season started, but if he keeps playing like this, he'll be in Oklahoma for a long time. (Ouch. It hurt just writing that.)

Yi Jianlian, Bucks
Since Kevin Durant received the Rookie of the Year award by acclamation before the season began, it's worth noting that if I had to give out a trophy at this very early juncture, I would not be voting for KD. Instead, I'd go with Yi, who has adjusted far more quickly to the NBA game than anyone thought possible.

It probably helps that he's 23 (oh, excuse me, "20"; not one person in the league I've talked to believes that birth date, and neither should you) as opposed to Durant's 19, but Yi has been impressive in the early going. He's still learning NBA defense, but his length and mobility make up for a lot of his mistakes -- he blocks two shots per game. And while his 11.8 points and 5.9 boards per game aren't going to set anyone's hair on fire, he's shown range out to the 3-point line and the ability to put it on the floor and go past bigger players. Suddenly that 25-minutes-a-game promise doesn't seem so outlandish.

DISAPPOINTMENTS

The Bulls, along with pretty much anyone associated with them
Those of you who like to stop and stare at train wrecks and car crashes might want to catch a Bulls game. Tabbed as one of the favorites in the East to start the season, Chicago has been unrelentingly awful. In fact, through the season's first two weeks, the Bulls have been quite possibly the worst team in the league. Their most recent game was their worst, losing at home to Toronto by 30 on Saturday, which might not have been so humiliating if they hadn't also already lost to the Clippers, Bucks and Sixers.

Not surprisingly, the Bulls' individual players have also been huge disappointments. Ben Gordon and Luol Deng have merely been shockingly subpar, as opposed to Kirk Hinrich and Ben Wallace, who have been downright appalling.

Wallace has been slowed by a bad ankle and really should consider sitting out a few games, because he's not helping at all. With 5.2 points and 7.3 rebounds per game, Wallace's defense is no longer making up for his dreadful offense, and last season's big free-agent prize is starting to look like an expensive mistake.

As for Hinrich, he has no physical ailments to blame, but might want to find one. He's shooting 31.8 percent from the floor, including 3-for-20 on 3-pointers, and is scoring just 9.3 points per game while sporting a miserable 7.69 PER. As a result of the struggles of Hinrich, Deng and Gordon, Chicago is last in the NBA in offensive efficiency.

Ironically, everyone talked before the season about how power forward was such a problem for this team, but the three players they've used there -- Andres Nocioni, Tyrus Thomas and Joe Smith -- are about the only players who haven't been crushing disappointments thus far.

Pau Gasol, Grizzlies
Though Gasol's title as the league's best bearded Catalan is not in peril, his status as a go-to scorer might be. At least, it will be if there isn't a lot more "go" in his game soon. Gasol took only one shot in the second half of a loss to Utah and is down to 10.6 field goal attempts per game for the season, a big reason his scoring has dipped to 16.2 per game. Additionally, his work on the boards has been supbar too; he's pulling down just 6.2 a night.

Vince Carter, Nets
Nets fans better hope that an early-season thumb ailment is the cause of Carter's woes, rather than his being sated by that juicy free-agent contract he inked over the summer. If it really is the thumb, perhaps his recent ankle sprain is a blessing in disguise that will allow him to heal up before he returns.

If not, his 17.0 points per game on 39.5 percent shooting are going to leave an already limited offensive team desperately searching for additional scoring options.

Kevin Durant, Sonics
OK, I plead guilty: My expectations were way too high. The kid is 19; let's all take a deep breath and try to remember that. Durant is cracking under the strain of being Seattle's go-to scorer, shooting 38.9 percent on more than 20 hoists a game and hitting just 29.5 percent on 3-pointers. Perhaps more troubling is how little he's contributing in other areas -- his 5.4 rebounds and 2.1 assists per game aren't quite in Adam Morrison territory, but they're certainly underwhelming.

Washington's offense
The Wizards were the league's fifth-best offense last season. As I noted in my Daily Dime item Monday, they've been one of the worst this season, barely squeezing past Miami to rank 28th in the league in offensive efficiency. That's simply unthinkable looking at Washington's trio of Gilbert Arenas, Caron Butler and Antawn Jamison, but all three have been off and the supporting cast hasn't helped.

By far the biggest culprit has been Agent Zero, who is struggling to repeat last season's glittering offensive performance after spending his summer recuperating from knee surgery. For those who don't play fantasy hoops and didn't see this Q&A with our resident injury expert Stephania Bell, it makes for some compelling reading -- basically, his type of knee injury tends to be a stubborn one, and it could give him problems all season.

What's certain is that it's giving him problems now. He's only 5-for-36 on 3-pointers, is averaging nearly five turnovers a game, and he's making 35.6 percent from the field. If he can't turn it around, I'm not sure Washington's offense can either.

Gerald Wallace, Bobcats
Last season, Wallace started incredibly slowly too, although he had a better excuse after an early-season concussion knocked him woozy. This season? I'm not sure what the problem is, but his numbers are unusually modest (15.5 points, 5.1 boards, 39.3 percent shooting) even though he's getting more shots than last season, and he's committing nearly four turnovers a game. And shockingly, the high-flying Wallace has only two blocks in the first six games. I've been championing him as the league's most underrated player for two years now, but he's not exactly helping out my case here.

Jason Richardson, Bobcats
Just what Sam Vincent needed to start his coaching career -- his two best offensive players are struggling. In addition to Wallace's troubles above, Richardson's move East has been more trying than expected. So far he's at 35.9 percent from the floor, has been allergic to the free-throw line (just 16 tries in six games) and has more than twice as many turnovers as assists. Somehow, the Bobcats are 3-3 anyway, but it won't last if these two don't pick it up.

Mike Miller, Grizzlies
Unlike some of the other guys on this list, Miller's problems have had more to do with quantity than quality. While he's shooting a decent percentage -- 43.5 percent on 3s, 42.8 percent overall -- he's been a bystander for large chunks of the game while Rudy Gay takes over as the Grizzlies' No. 2 scorer.

Miller is scoring only 12.7 points per 40 minutes, a pretty meager total for a guy whose value is almost exclusively at the offensive end. Somehow, Miller needs to find more shots -- one wonders whether a return to his sixth man role is a potential answer.

Nenad Krstic, Nets
New Jersey pinned some of its hopes for this season on his return from knee surgery, but it's apparent that getting the Krstic of old back will be a "process" rather than an "event." He told the New York papers recently that his surgically repaired left knee is only at 75-80 percent right now, and it shows in his results -- a 39.3 TS% and a 6.82 PER that would make even Jason Collins blush. Unusually, he's also made some mental errors in the games I've seen -- a sign that all the time he spent away from the court has left him rusty.

Dallas' defense
Avery Johnson has pledged to go easier on his Mavs during the regular season, but he might have to crack the whip if they don't start getting more stops. While Dallas remains primarily an offensive team, and that's kept them at 4-2 in the early going, they've also been well above average defensively in Johnson's two years at the helm as well -- one reason they've won 60 games both seasons.

This season the D isn't off to such a good start. Dallas ranks 22nd in defensive efficiency thus far, a big reason the Mavs suffered road defeats against the likes of Atlanta and Portland in the early going. Even a neutered Sacramento team shot 50 percent on them on the road, and it wasn't because of garbage-time stat-stuffing either -- the Kings hung 56 on Dallas in the first half. Portland shot 50 percent too, while Golden State shot 49.4 percent from the field, made 11 3s, got 30 foul shots, and only made seven turnovers.

Injuries and suspensions have played a role, as Devin Harris, Josh Howard, Erick Dampier and Devean George have all missed time, but the addition of players such as Eddie Jones and Trenton Hassell was supposed to offset this. So far it hasn't, and if the trend continues, Dallas will have trouble keeping up with the likes of San Antonio and Houston in the NBA's toughest division.

John Hollinger writes for ESPN Insider. To e-mail him, click here.
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ChumpDumper

11-14-2007, 01:04 AM

2007-08 All-Decline Team: Who's taking a step back?

Manu Ginobili, Spurs (last season 24.18, projected 21.7)

Don't take this too far -- the guy is still an All-Star caliber performer who remains one of the league's most underrated players because the restrictions on his minutes hurt his per-game averages (believe it or not, he had the league's ninth-best PER last season).

But Manu was so good last season that it would be very difficult for him to repeat it -- he put up his best numbers since coming to the NBA in pretty much every category. As a 30-year-old slasher, we'd expect his numbers to go down anyway, and I think it's a relatively safe bet that he won't finish in the top 10 in PER this season despite his strong start so far.
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=All-Decline-0708

From "All-Decline" to All-NBA in five days.

ManuTim_best of Fwiendz

11-14-2007, 01:08 AM

heh.

Way to backpeddle Hollinger.

If Manu was even MVP talks in the later half of the season, that'd be impressive enough.

timvp

11-14-2007, 01:13 AM

BeerIsGood!

11-14-2007, 01:14 AM

So Pierce and Allen won't be used against Garnett?

timvp

11-14-2007, 01:15 AM

So Pierce and Allen won't be used against Garnett?Nah, Garnett has be crowned the MVP of the league since he was traded. In the pecking order, the media has decided he's clearly first.

The pecking order in San Antonio starts with Tim Duncan and (not counting tonight) rightfully so.

BeerIsGood!

11-14-2007, 01:17 AM

Nah, Garnett has be crowned the MVP of the league since he was traded. In the pecking order, the media has decided he's clearly first.

The pecking order in San Antonio starts with Tim Duncan and (not counting tonight) rightfully so.

I agree, and it goes to show why awards like MVP are sometimes completely meaningless. Unless you are the Suns and Nash's are the only things to hold on to.

K-State Spur

11-14-2007, 01:21 AM

heh.

Way to backpeddle Hollinger.

If Manu was even MVP talks in the later half of the season, that'd be impressive enough.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Hollinger's all-decline team based on mathematical projections/track records. Meanwhile, this piece on Manu seemed more opinion based.

ManuTim_best of Fwiendz

11-14-2007, 01:23 AM

ManuTim_best of Fwiendz

11-14-2007, 01:27 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Hollinger's all-decline team based on mathematical projections/track records. Meanwhile, this piece on Manu seemed more opinion based.
Well the article itself seems to be prompted by the unexpected performances of players as of late.

But yeah, I think mathematical projections/track records are harder to quantify when the players's games aren't always predictable/conventional, I think some other Spurs fans have commented how normally a player at Manu's stage in his career would definitely take a step back. But Manu could be like a late bloomer or something so he could defy the statistics.

timvp

11-14-2007, 01:32 AM

I think the media looks at it as San Antonio is going to be succesful regardless. So it'll be a long list down and Duncan is considered by default, because he's the game changing big man.
but I don't think it'd be out of the question if Manu could potentially play at an MVP calibre level if he keeps playing like he does now as the best Spur on the court consistently. It seems he's been on, in every game.I don't see any way Manu wins MVP. He could get better as the season goes on and I still don't think the voters would give it to him. Same could be said for Parker. Parker could average 28 and 9 this year and he wouldn't win MVP.

Tim Duncan is viewed as the lead player on this team. And really, that's the right way to look at the Spurs because everything begins and ends with Duncan.

meta2007

11-14-2007, 01:33 AM

I hope Manu can be selected to play the ASG this season.

timvp

11-14-2007, 01:34 AM

I hope Manu can be selected to play the ASG this season.Yeah, a more realistic goal would be to have three Spurs in the All-Star game.

E20

11-14-2007, 01:37 AM

Yeah, a more realistic goal would be to have three Spurs in the All-Star game.
Spurs Big 3 + Pop as the HC in the ASG.
Bostons Big 3 + Doc as the HC in the ASG.

See who wins.

ManuTim_best of Fwiendz

11-14-2007, 01:39 AM

J.T.

11-14-2007, 01:42 AM

Yeah, a more realistic goal would be to have three Spurs in the All-Star game.

I'm gunning for Bowen to finally get DPOY over (whoever blocks the most shots this year). The award needs to be renamed Shot Blocker of the Year until Bowen wins it, because that's the stat the award has been judged on for the past several seasons.

BeerIsGood!

11-14-2007, 01:46 AM

No way TD wins the MVP this year either. For one, he seems more than content to defer to his all star caliber teammates on offense and go along for the ride until the push for the title begins. Secondly, even if he had a stellar season media people would point back to games like tonight and say "well, even when he had a horrible game his team is so good that they still blow out the Lakers".

porscha

11-14-2007, 01:46 AM

I really really like to see Manu win the MVP this year :cheer :cheer :cheer

Solid D

11-14-2007, 02:28 AM

The step-back threes are passe compared with that guided missile Manu zipped, from his right-hand past two oblivious Hornets to a flashing Matt Bonner. Only 2 points yes, but wow!!!

Darkwaters

11-14-2007, 02:30 AM

My pick would be that Manu win the Finals MVP award. That gives Manu some nice hardware, the Spurs a back to back, and gives every member of the big three at least one finals MVP award.

But if I had to go with regular season awards, give Bowen the DPOY.

ArgSpursFan.

11-14-2007, 07:43 AM

MaNuMaNiAc

11-14-2007, 08:09 AM

Manu won't win the MVP,no matter what his numbers look like.
He didn't win the 2005 Finals MVP
He din't win the 2007 6th. Man award
He Won't win the 2008 reg season MVP

Manu Ginobili will be probably the most underrated NBA player ever by the media.Underrated by whom? certainly not San Antonio media. Still, I agree he hasn't been getting the attention his superb playing deserves, not outside of San Antonio. It sure does seem as if the Spurs are suddenly a team with two stars instead of three... go figure.

I'd also like to add that if any Spur ever gets the MVP while Duncan is manning this team, it most certainly should be Timmy himself. Otherwise, the award is a joke. I mean Manu or Tony can play out of their minds, but without Duncan openning up the lanes, neither of them would be able to perform the way they do... not with as much ease anyway

ArgSpursFan.

11-14-2007, 08:32 AM

I'd also like to add that if any Spur ever gets the MVP while Duncan is manning this team, it most certainly should be Timmy himself. Otherwise, the award is a joke. I mean Manu or Tony can play out of their minds, but without Duncan openning up the lanes, neither of them would be able to perform the way they do... not with as much ease anyway

Well, 1 st of all, I never said Manu wasn't a star.
then I said He was underrated by the media in general,not the San Antonio Media,Of course He is a hero in San Antonio,nop doubt,like He is in Argentina too.
Finally to answer your about Timmy getting the MVPs awards over Manu and Tony, I don't think it's real coze Tony won the Finals MVP over Timmy last season, and He was the best player in the Finals,Like Manu was in 05.
So, I don't think TP is underrated,and never said so, but I trully think Manu is the most underrated player in the NBA,maybe of ALL TIMES.

Nikos

11-14-2007, 08:41 AM

Manu clearly won't win MVP, but I really hope his PER can be around 25-26 this season (but even that is asking a lot). That would mean he has a slightly superior statistical season across the board. That would be nice. But eventually his production will drop as the season progresses, and Tony and Tim continue to improve upon their solid play.

mathbzh

11-14-2007, 09:04 AM

I don't see any way Manu wins MVP. He could get better as the season goes on and I still don't think the voters would give it to him. Same could be said for Parker. Parker could average 28 and 9 this year and he wouldn't win MVP.

Tim Duncan is viewed as the lead player on this team. And really, that's the right way to look at the Spurs because everything begins and ends with Duncan.

I am not sure about that. You would have said the same for the MVP of the finals.
If Manu could play 35 minutes with the same efficiency he has right now (would translate to a 24/6/6 statsheet) with the spurs having a 60+ win record he would be in the MVP discussion.
The same would go for Parker if he could average 28/9.
This would be true because such statistics would probably means that Duncan offensive production is down well under 20 PPG (probably near 16). He would be considered declining (cause defense doesn't count in the MVP race) and Manu (or Parker) would be seen has the new leader.

This will not happen (Manu will not play 35 MPG and Parker can't have 28/9) so it is not really important. While Manu play ou of his mind (I hope he will do it in the playoff) and the Spurs repeat, I don't care who is the MVP.

ArgSpursFan.

11-14-2007, 09:09 AM

Let´s be honest,the reg season MVP is the guy who sales more jerseys at the stores.(Meaning:Garnet,Kobe,James,Nash,Dirk,D Wade, Duncan, etc)

mathbzh

11-14-2007, 09:13 AM

Let´s be honest,the reg season MVP is the guy who sales more jerseys at the stores.(Meaning:Garnet,Kobe,James,Nash,Dirk,D Wade, Duncan, etc)

Your argument doesn't really apply to Timmy... and despite all the hype arround Kobe and James I can't remember them being MVP.

ArgSpursFan.

11-14-2007, 09:27 AM

Your argument doesn't really apply to Timmy... and despite all the hype arround Kobe and James I can't remember them being MVP.

what I´m triyng to say is that popular players will have more chances to win the MVP tham underrated bench players.
That's just marketing business.

Kermit

11-14-2007, 09:29 AM

what I´m triyng to say is that popular players will have more chances to win the MVP tham underrated bench players.
That's just marketing business.

This is the greatest quote ever. I'm starting a Scalabrine for MVP website as we speak.

AFBlue

11-14-2007, 09:44 AM

Well the article itself seems to be prompted by the unexpected performances of players as of late.

But yeah, I think mathematical projections/track records are harder to quantify when the players's games aren't always predictable/conventional, I think some other Spurs fans have commented how normally a player at Manu's stage in his career would definitely take a step back. But Manu could be like a late bloomer or something so he could defy the statistics.

The "All-Decline Team" was based of "Projected PER", which K-State Spur stated correctly is a mathematical equation without any subjectivity.

I think Ginobili WOULD be on the decline if he continued to play the same herky jerky, slasher style that he used in his early 20s....but like Hollinger points out, Ginobili has become adept at knocking down set three-point shots and step-back threes. He has expanded his game to increase his effective basketball shelf-life.

It should also be noted that Ginobili took the summer off for the first time in years and has come into the season pain free and with more energy than ever before.

Bottom Line: With Ginobili well rested and armed with an expanding offensive repertoire, I look for him to continue the strong start well into the season.

And Hollinger has a right to be suprised....so am I. Very pleasantly suprised.

ArgSpursFan.

11-14-2007, 09:44 AM

This is the greatest quote ever. I'm starting a Scalabrine for MVP website as we speak.

Not really, the one that you mention that the great Reggie should be the clutchiest players ever is the greatest quote ever.

thousandth

11-14-2007, 09:52 AM

Let´s be honest,the reg season MVP is the guy who sales more jerseys at the stores.(Meaning:Garnet,Kobe,James,Nash,Dirk,D Wade, Duncan, etc)

Well, you was never one to accept nba autority without question, bro.

Kermit

11-14-2007, 09:54 AM

Not really, the one that you mention that the great Reggie should be the clutchiest players ever is the greatest quote ever.

:lol

You're right. Maybe someone should tell the NBA that Manu's legendary exploits in the clutch haven't been included on their Greatest 60 playoff moments, and that this must be a mistake because Manu is the clutchiest player ever, 100 million times greater than Reggie who for some reason is considered one of the more clutch players this league has ever seen but shouldn't be because he never won a ring. Reggie's definitely should have beat Shaq and Kobe in 2000. Lord knows the Spurs tore that team a new a-hole whenever they played them. Why, if that Spurs team had Manu, they would've swept the regular season and the playoffs.

MaNuMaNiAc

11-14-2007, 10:02 AM

Don't mind ArgSpursFan. he's applying for the Archbishop position in the Church of Manu, and someone must have told him he hasn't done enough preaching yet

ArgSpursFan.

11-14-2007, 10:20 AM

Don't mind ArgSpursFan. he's applying for the Archbishop position in the Church of Manu, and someone must have told him he hasn't done enough preaching yet

Not really.I don't really care if He gets any personal awards or not in the NBA.
As long as He keeps winning championships in the NBA and next year we're able to repeat in the Olympics,I'm cool with it.
But I just don't think Reggie Miller is on Manu's same level of chutchness ,coze He never played an NBA final or played a game for an Olympic Gold medal,that's all.

MaNuMaNiAc

11-14-2007, 10:32 AM

Not really.I don't really care if He gets any personal awards or not in the NBA.
As long as He keeps winning championships in the NBA and next year we're able to repeat in the Olympics,I'm cool with it.
But I just don't think Reggie Miller is on Manu's same level of chutchness ,coze He never played an NBA final or played a game for an Olympic Gold medal,that's all.
Christ! you DO realize Manu is playing with perhaps the GREATEST FORWARD TO EVER PLAY THE GAME!!! right? That fact doesn't escape your grasp, right? Who did Reggie Miller play with that even comes close to Duncan?? Manu is clutch, but until he does something along the lines of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtPaMgyz4ec, lets not insult Reggie, shall we!!?

anakha

11-14-2007, 10:32 AM

But I just don't think Reggie Miller is on Manu's same level of chutchness ,coze He never played an NBA final or played a game for an Olympic Gold medal,that's all.

Um, you might wanna recheck your NBA Finals history, buddy. :lol

MaNuMaNiAc

11-14-2007, 10:42 AM

Um, you might wanna recheck your NBA Finals history, buddy. :lolI can't believe I didn't catch that :lol I guess he wasn't watching WAAY back then :lol

MaNuMaNiAc

11-14-2007, 10:46 AM

Watch out for homerism! Its a disease! Symptoms may include self ownage and a complete loss of credibility. Only cure known to man... EXTREME FUCKING REALITY CHECK!

ArgSpursFan.

11-14-2007, 10:49 AM

I can't believe I didn't catch that :lol I guess he wasn't watching WAAY back then :lol

yeah,you didn't catch it coze you didn't know about it. :blah
I don't know why you speak as you know that much about him thought,I guess is just more of you trash talking thought :lol

1Parker1

11-14-2007, 10:52 AM

Manu's passing this season has seriously impressed me. He's always been good at getting others involved, but this season I find myself saying "Wow" to his crazy passes more so than he's crazy shot attempts!

coachmac87

11-14-2007, 10:52 AM

ok your point made no sense...how can u uses parker and duncan against manu but you cant use allen and pierce for kg?? please explain...i think if cleveland makes it in top 4 and lebron post numbers similar to last year...he wins it...but id love to see manu win it

ArgSpursFan.

11-14-2007, 10:54 AM

this is what I mean by clutch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8Mg6Zj2P7w

MaNuMaNiAc

11-14-2007, 10:54 AM

yeah,you didn't catch it coze you didn't know about it. :blah
I don't know why you speak as you know that much about him thought,I guess is just more of you trash talking thought :lolno, I actually thought you wrote he never won an NBA finals as opposed to Manu who has three rings. Point of fact, I didn't watch those finals, but at least I know who's been to the finals in the last couple of decades bro. Besides, we're not talking ancient history here if you get what I'm saying

MaNuMaNiAc

11-14-2007, 10:56 AM

this is what I mean by clutch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8Mg6Zj2P7woh just give it up! for every clutch Manu moment you come up with, you'll get three Reggie classics. Don't be stupid! I love Manu as well, but Reggie under pressure? not even close

anakha

11-14-2007, 10:56 AM

I can't believe I didn't catch that :lol I guess he wasn't watching WAAY back then :lol

Guess the results then didn't matter 'cause all those events happened B.M. - Before Manu. :lmao

ArgSpursFan.

11-14-2007, 10:58 AM

no, I actually thought you wrote he never won an NBA finals as opposed to Manu who has three rings. Point of fact, I didn't watch those finals, but at least I know who's been to the finals in the last couple of decades bro. Besides, we're not talking ancient history here if you get what I'm saying
Actually I knew Reggie never won an NBA championship,I just didnt recall him playing an NBA Final game.
But Still 0 championships vs 3 championships.

Kermit

11-14-2007, 10:59 AM

this is what I mean by clutch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8Mg6Zj2P7w

That's an excellent clip of Manu's performance in a NBA playoff or Finals game. You got me. Manu is the most supercalaclutchilistic dude ever. He shits game winning baskets. Just don't ask him not to foul a shooter when you have the lead in a game 7 and a win sends you to the Finals. Maybe he fouled Dirk just to prove that he's even more clutch.

ArgSpursFan.

11-14-2007, 11:02 AM

oh just give it up! for every clutch Manu moment you come up with, you'll get three Reggie classics. Don't be stupid! I love Manu as well, but Reggie under pressure? not even close

that's cool,that's just your opinion,like I have mine though.
we actually don't have to agree on anything.
I love reggie and shit,but Manu,in my opinion, is on a diferent level.

SpurOutofTownFan

11-14-2007, 11:04 AM

I do agree that Manu is playing as well or better than anyone in the league in a per minute basis. He's just balling like crazy right now. Even not considering his production per minute, he's got to be in the top five, at least.

That said, he's not going to win MVP. Voters will use Duncan and Parker against him. It's Garnett's MVP to lose at this point. Second in line is probably LeBron. The MVP voting is a popularity contest that is almost always decided early in the season or even sometimes before the season starts.

You pretty much put it all together as it is. Unfortunately they MVP trophy is a popularity contest and it usually goes to individuals who score a lot of points. It's very flashy.

They need to come up with another trophy that makes more sense and shows performance as a whole - something like that would suit people like Ginobili well and it would make more sense. Ginobili right now is probably the best player in the NBA all combined - if he is not he is top 3 at least.

I don't see MVP happening for Ginobili but if we get to the finals and win it again, I can see him getting MVP finals at last provided the voters get their heads out of their asses, not like in 2005 when he deserved it but didn't get it.

Last year it was Parker and although I was happy for the guy I was very frustrated Ginobili didn't get it 2 years before who knows why. The 2005 finals were way more challenging than 2007's and that talks a lot about what you need to do to be a finals MVP. Parker had a much easier time going after the Cavs who had no real challenges for him at the PG position. We all knew before the finals started that the Cavs had no way to stop Tony from scoring 30+ points a night and just kill them again and again and again.

ArgSpursFan.

11-14-2007, 11:04 AM

That's an excellent clip of Manu's performance in a NBA playoff or Finals game. You got me. Manu is the most supercalaclutchilistic dude ever. He shits game winning baskets. Just don't ask him not to foul a shooter when you have the lead in a game 7 and a win sends you to the Finals. Maybe he fouled Dirk just to prove that he's even more clutch.

Actually there´s a better clip of Manu and his playoffs performance in 2005 and the finals that year.
I´ll find it for you,don't worry.

Kermit

11-14-2007, 11:04 AM

Actually I knew Reggie never won an NBA championship,I just didnt recall him playing an NBA Final game.
But Still 0 championships vs 3 championships.

Manu 3 championships, Wilt Chamberlain 2 championships.

Manu 1,000,000,000,000 times greater than Wilt.

Wilt Chamberlain 20,000 women, Manu?

Wilt 1,000,000,000 times greater STD's than Manu.

Praise be to our lord Manu Ginobili, who crossed over and dunked on Jesus Christ in the year of our Lord 2007 A.M. (After Manu).

ArgSpursFan.

11-14-2007, 11:06 AM

That's an excellent clip of Manu's performance in a NBA playoff or Finals game. You got me. Manu is the most supercalaclutchilistic dude ever. He shits game winning baskets. Just don't ask him not to foul a shooter when you have the lead in a game 7 and a win sends you to the Finals. Maybe he fouled Dirk just to prove that he's even more clutch.

thank you for showing everbody here that even spurs fans underrate him.
BTW,It was a game 6 dude.

anakha

11-14-2007, 11:08 AM

BTW,It was a game 6 dude.

Get your facts straight.

Good Lord (or is it Manu for you?). :lmao

ArgSpursFan.

11-14-2007, 11:09 AM

Manu 3 championships, Wilt Chamberlain 2 championships.

Manu 1,000,000,000,000 times greater than Wilt.

Wilt Chamberlain 20,000 women, Manu?

Wilt 1,000,000,000 times greater STD's than Manu.

Praise be to our lord Manu Ginobili, who crossed over and dunked on Jesus Christ in the year of our Lord 2007 A.M. (After Manu).

We're talking about being clutch here,not who's the better player.Of course Chamberlain is one of the best players in history.
but I really don't know how good was Chamberlain under presure,cose that's the point of discussion here.

Reggie Miller

11-14-2007, 11:12 AM

Christ! you DO realize Manu is playing with perhaps the GREATEST FORWARD TO EVER PLAY THE GAME!!! right? That fact doesn't escape your grasp, right? Who did Reggie Miller play with that even comes close to Duncan?? Manu is clutch, but until he does something along the lines of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtPaMgyz4ec, lets not insult Reggie, shall we!!?

Thanks. Rik Smits + Jermaine O'Neal < Tim Duncan.

In all seriousness, Manu is a better defender and probably a better all-around player than Miller. He does not have Reggie's shooting touch, however.

Kermit

11-14-2007, 11:12 AM

Manu one clutch basket in Italian League game which is not important to discussion 1,000,000 greater than Reggie Miller's numerous ass-rapings in the against numerous teams in the waning moments of important playoff games.

We sniff Manu's farts, all hail Manu.

Humble Billy Hayes

11-14-2007, 11:13 AM

Is that the same ArgSpursFan that was racist as shit and got banned?

MaNuMaNiAc

11-14-2007, 11:21 AM

Is that the same ArgSpursFan that was racist as shit and got banned?I don't think so. This guy may own himself a lot, but he does it in a very cortious manner

2centsworth

11-14-2007, 11:25 AM

Manu is not underrated. He gets major love from the media, especially Charles Barkley.

Manu did get robbed in '05, but it was to Tim so who cares.

MaNuMaNiAc

11-14-2007, 11:26 AM

thank you for showing everbody here that even spurs fans underrate him.
BTW,It was a game 6 dude.ok, so what exactly is the reason for this praticular blunder? :lol We're talking little more than a year ago, were you not watching then?

smeagol

11-14-2007, 11:29 AM

Manu started very hot in the 2005/6 season and then he came back to Earth.

I'm sure Nikos remembers.

howbouthemspurs

11-14-2007, 11:30 AM

That would be one of the craziest thing to ever happen in sports history!. win three awards all in one season!.. and what if (I mean when) the spurs win the title again this season he become MVP there too?... that would be awesome!

hater

11-14-2007, 11:32 AM

I don't like this playing great in November crap. Spurs need to start sucking and then SPAM

cherylsteele

11-14-2007, 11:40 AM

oh just give it up! for every clutch Manu moment you come up with, you'll get three Reggie classics. Don't be stupid! I love Manu as well, but Reggie under pressure? not even close
You can throw in some Robert Horry on top of that.
Manu is a different type of clutch player. He doesn't make the big shot, he just plays clutch during stretches when we need him to during the game as a whole.
Miller (and Horry) are more known for there clutch 3's than most anything else.

SenorSpur

11-14-2007, 01:24 PM

The talking heads on local Dallas sports radio and even Mavs players themselves are touting Jason Terry as the supposed runaway favorite for Sixth Man of the Year. Even Terry himself is sqawking about his credentials - which is customary for him. It's typcial of the Mavs and their followers to focus on individual accolades.

Manu has better all-around numbers and is perhaps playing the best ball of anyone in the NBA at this point - besides Garnett. It's a long season, but I expect if he keeps up this pace, Manu will win the award.

Spurs will again hoist the Larry O'Brien trophy in the end, too. Book it!

FromWayDowntown

11-14-2007, 01:26 PM

I just love that Manu is now perhaps the clutchest player in NBA history (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2060423&postcount=8) and probably the most underrated player ever (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2061810&postcount=21). Can we come up with any more superlatives for Manu?

Again, I love the guy, but this is ridiculous. Manu has virtually no shot at winning MVP. He's the 2nd or 3rd best player on a dominant team, but even if he's the clutchest dude to ever lace up a pair of sneakers, he's too inconsistent from a statistical standpoint to be an MVP-type player. Add to that the fact that he'll never be seen as "the man" in San Antonio -- and for good reason -- and you end up with a guy whose top-out point is All-Star reserve and maybe Finals MVP.

Say what you will about the significance of an award like Finals MVP, but there are a number of historical examples to illustrate that a player who wins Finals MVP won't necessarily be a regular season MVP candidate: Tony Parker, Cedric Maxwell, Chauncey Billups, Joe Dumars, James Worthy, Dennis Johnson, Jo Jo White. For those sorts of players, multiple All-Star games is about the best regular season accolade they can reasonably expect.

There's a quantum difference between a guy who is an All-Star caliber player who might win an award like Finals MVP and a guy who is among the 5-10 best players in the game at any given moment and should be considered a true MVP candidate. Manu Ginobili is a wonderful basketball player -- a Hall of Famer if you ask me -- but not an MVP candidate.

WalterBenitez

11-14-2007, 01:32 PM

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=All-Decline-0708
From "All-Decline" to All-NBA in five days.

Nothing to be surprised, Manu is climbing like Intl's Oil Price :music

WalterBenitez

11-14-2007, 01:34 PM

Spurs Big 3 + Pop as the HC in the ASG.
Bostons Big 3 + Doc as the HC in the ASG.

See who wins.

Just a whish, could we avoid POP? you know ASG would be boring with POP on the bench!

diego

11-14-2007, 01:58 PM

SpurOutofTownFan

11-14-2007, 02:03 PM

Add to that the fact that he'll never be seen as "the man" in San Antonio .

Don't know about that. You might be surprised. If Duncan ever retires, Manu might very well become "the Man" in San Antonio and Parker right after him.

nfg3

11-14-2007, 02:11 PM

Manu has been fantastic so far. Whether he can continue we will see. Hope so. All of his contributions usually don't show up in the boxscore and his value comes out during the playoffs at crunch time. One of the best clutch players in the NBA today. Loved him from day one.

I hope El Contusion can stay healthy but with his fearless style of play he will get his bumps and bruises along the way.

smeagol

11-14-2007, 02:21 PM

Manu has as much chance as winning the regular MVP award as sequ playing for the Spurs.

FromWayDowntown

11-14-2007, 03:17 PM

Don't know about that. You might be surprised. If Duncan ever retires, Manu might very well become "the Man" in San Antonio and Parker right after him.

I stand corrected. Until 2012, Manu won't really have a chance to be considered "the Man" in San Antonio.

MaNuMaNiAc

11-14-2007, 03:25 PM

I stand corrected. Until 2112, Manu won't really have a chance to be considered "the Man" in San Antonio.

Man, imagine how many more championships Tim is going to have by then!

FromWayDowntown

11-14-2007, 03:55 PM

Man, imagine how many more championships Tim is going to have by then!

Yup -- and, fortunately for all of us, it appears that Manu will play a significant role in any other championships that the Tim Duncan era might bring, which makes it all the more likely that there will be other championships. That Manu is not "The Man" doesn't mean he isn't great; it just means that his contributions will always be the sort that augment Tim's greatness.

MaNuMaNiAc

11-14-2007, 04:00 PM

Yup -- and, fortunately for all of us, it appears that Manu will play a significant role in any other championships that the Tim Duncan era might bring, which makes it all the more likely that there will be other championships. That Manu is not "The Man" doesn't mean he isn't great; it just means that his contributions will always be the sort that augment Tim's greatness.

agreed! but unless Tim is actually retiring at the age of 146, my post didn't quite have the effect I intended :lol

ShoogarBear

11-14-2007, 04:01 PM

I said before if the Spurs role players continue to play smart and hungry and keep the Big 3 fresh, and the Spurs are on track for a unexpectedly superlative regular season (like 65+ wins), then some individual regular season awards (like having 3 All-Stars, 6th man, DPOY) are possible.

What is more likely, though, is they hit a slump, Pop pulls in the reins and they spend the latter half of the season just prepping for a top 4 seed and the playoffs, in which case there will be very few awards.

FromWayDowntown

11-14-2007, 04:03 PM

agreed! but unless Tim is actually retiring at the age of 146, my post didn't quite have the effect I intended :lol

I see it now. Good catch. That's two typos for me in the last 30 minutes.

MaNuMaNiAc

11-14-2007, 04:04 PM

I see it now. Good catch. That's two typos for me in the last 30 minutes.
shame on you! :nerd

Reggie Miller

11-14-2007, 04:19 PM

i could care less about all the individual awards, but i agree with "reggie miller" (the poster) that manu is a better overall player than reggie. all reggie had on manu was a great shooting stroke and a bigger mouth.

both have had their clutch moments, and both have choked. you cant win them all.

once upon a time, a team led by manu, sans duncan, beat a team led by reggie, + several all stars (baron davis, paul pierce, elton brand, jermaine oneal), in reggie's very own canseco field house. it was the first time a foreign team beat a US team of NBA players.

and as far as "clutchiest" player in NBA history, I can't believe reggie miller is even being mentioned. larry bird is far and away the best candidate for that title.

He has had some phenomenal performances over the years. Earlier in his career, Miller would often have to put the entire team on his back for 48 minutes in order for the Pacers to win a playoff game. The problem with Miller is that no one really knew about the guy until the Pacers became respectable in the mid '90s. Apart from some spectacular games against the Knicks, not too many people saw him play his best basketball. He has his rep because late in games teams knew it would be Miller who would beat them or no one, he would have an entire team collapse on him, and he would still drain a jumper with four hands in his face.

timvp

11-14-2007, 04:31 PM

:lol @ Manu being The Clutchest Human Ever and The Most Underrated Primate In Molecular History. It's hard to classify someone as underrated who has their own church, who is currently being hailed as the best Spur by the national media, is already a sure-fire Hall of Famer and is the most popular player in San Antonio. I mean, the man doesn't exactly fly under the radar these days. People know how good he is ... or at least they're reasonably close.

I do agree that Manu is pretty clutch but what is the last game-winning basket he hit in an important game? Seriously.

ManuTim_best of Fwiendz

11-14-2007, 04:48 PM

For the Spurs that's probably one of the only things he hasn't done yet. Hit a game winner in an important game.

It's kind of ironic in a way where he has the reputation where the defenses wouldn't dare leave Manu open, even though he hasn't had to hit a gamewinner yet in an important game, so usually I just remember Manu being involved in a few game winning passes in past playoff games .

There was one potential gamewinning shot...but... :pctoss :pctoss

diego

11-14-2007, 04:52 PM

He has had some phenomenal performances over the years. Earlier in his career, Miller would often have to put the entire team on his back for 48 minutes in order for the Pacers to win a playoff game. The problem with Miller is that no one really knew about the guy until the Pacers became respectable in the mid '90s. Apart from some spectacular games against the Knicks, not too many people saw him play his best basketball. He has his rep because late in games teams knew it would be Miller who would beat them or no one, he would have an entire team collapse on him, and he would still drain a jumper with four hands in his face.

I didnt mean it like he has no clutch moments or is a choker, my best friend is a hard core pacers fan so I've heard plenty about reggie! i just meant it as me being surprised reggie was being used as a standard, when IMO thats larry bird. I'd be interested to hear what the greybeards here have to say about that.

ManuTim_best of Fwiendz

11-14-2007, 04:54 PM

Larry Bird could do what Manu does in rallying in crunch time, AND will his shot in, like Reggie Miller's 3 barrage plays in limited seconds.

Kermit

11-14-2007, 04:57 PM

I didnt mean it like he has no clutch moments or is a choker, my best friend is a hard core pacers fan so I've heard plenty about reggie! i just meant it as me being surprised reggie was being used as a standard, when IMO thats larry bird. I'd be interested to hear what the greybeards here have to say about that.

Just to be clear, the only reason I've argued the Reggie angle, and the reason his name has become so prevalent in this thread is that the archbishop of the Church of Manu equated Reggie's NBA exploits to a pile of shit, mainly because he hadn't won a ring, as if Reggie wasn't in the same class with Jack Haley because Jack has one.

E20

11-14-2007, 04:58 PM

I do agree that Manu is pretty clutch but what is the last game-winning basket he hit in an important game? Seriously.
Game winning baskets can be defined as being clutch, but clutch can also be defined as hitting big shots/big plays when it counts and in tight situations near the end of the game/regulation. Clutch isn't just limited to always making a game winner.

Here are some:
Game 4 07 Finals: Manu Ginobili poured in 13 of his game-high 27 points in the fourth quarter, including six free throws in the final 24 seconds, to keep the charging Cavs at bay. Cleveland had scored the first 11 points of the period, but needed Damon Jones' 3-pointer at the buzzer to produce the final one-point margin.

Game 3 07 Finals: all free throws in the final 10.4 seconds - to hold off the Cavaliers and crush the hopes of their rowdy, towel-waving crowd, who had never before seen their team play a finals game in person.

Game 7 06 Finals: That one three to give us a 3pt lead.

But,the last game winner Manu hit, was the one in the olympics against Serbia, I think.

timvp

11-14-2007, 05:00 PM

I'm on record as saying Reggie Miller is one of the most overrated players of his generation. That said, he was damn clutch. To say that Manu was more of a clutch shooter than Miller you'd have to be the most blind homer to ever live. Miller hit game winners in his sleep.

I'm trying to think of the plays which a Manu homer would use to prove Manu's clutchness. You have the pass to Horry against Detroit, which was a nice yet obvious pass. The pass to Duncan against Seattle, which was a bonafide great play. However, you also have the foul and missed layup (and miss pass to Horry wide open) versus Dallas, you have the game losing turnover to Kevin Martin and the Kings and you have another play against Dallas where he got the ball tipped away.

Again, Manu is pretty damn clutch and he'd be one of the first players I'd want on my team going into the fourth quarter of a big game, I just don't understand what he's done to be considered the clutchest player of all-time. Perhaps I'm forgetting some plays . . .

Deimosfobos

11-14-2007, 05:01 PM

I do agree that Manu is pretty clutch but what is the last game-winning basket he hit in an important game? Seriously.

To be fair.... when was the last time spurs won or lost a really close game? Or how many really close games spurs have every year?

I don't know the actual number, but i'm sure it must be low. And when the game is close, manu usually goes for the sure thing, by ataccking the basket and getting fouled.

Back on the topic, i think the fact that Manu is even mentioned as a mvp candite, as imposible as it may be, is something amazing for us... so why don't we enjoy it and relax? :smokin :toast

timvp

11-14-2007, 05:03 PM

Game winning baskets can be defined as being clutch, but clutch can also be defined as hitting big shots/big plays when it counts and in tight situations near the end of the game/regulation. Clutch isn't just limited to always making a game winner.

Here are some:
Game 4 07 Finals: Manu Ginobili poured in 13 of his game-high 27 points in the fourth quarter, including six free throws in the final 24 seconds, to keep the charging Cavs at bay. Cleveland had scored the first 11 points of the period, but needed Damon Jones' 3-pointer at the buzzer to produce the final one-point margin.

Game 3 07 Finals: all free throws in the final 10.4 seconds - to hold off the Cavaliers and crush the hopes of their rowdy, towel-waving crowd, who had never before seen their team play a finals game in person.

Game 7 06 Finals: That one three to give us a 3pt lead.

But,the last game winner Manu hit, was the one in the olympics against Serbia, I think.Manu did a good job of hitting his free throws when the Spurs were trying to ice games last year in the playoffs (except versus Phoenix in Game 1). Does that make him the clutchest player of all-time?

diego

11-14-2007, 05:03 PM

manu is not a "game-winner" type clutch. somebody else in this thread mentioned that. its just that in the 4th, he plays harder, anticipates better, i dont know. but he isnt really a clutch shooter, as much as he is a gamer, getting the play the team needs at the right time. of course, no one is perfect and in 06 he messed up an otherwise brilliant performance.

come to think of it, i think horry and duncan are the best "clutch shooter" currently on the team. weird for that list to be bigs instead of smalls.

E20

11-14-2007, 05:07 PM

Manu did a good job of hitting his free throws when the Spurs were trying to ice games last year in the playoffs (except versus Phoenix in Game 1). Does that make him the clutchest player of all-time?
I agree the point you're trying to make that Manu is not the clutchest player in all of history. I actually didn't really read this whole thing and just read your post, so I didn't really knwo what we're talking about. :lol But yeah Manu is pretty clutch. He probably ranks third or second on the current Spurs squad in terms of clutchness.

timvp

11-14-2007, 05:23 PM

To be fair.... when was the last time spurs won or lost a really close game? Or how many really close games spurs have every year?The Spurs had plenty of close games in last year's playoffs. Against Denver, the big shots and big plays were authored by Robert Horry. He had that series changing blocked shot and he had the game clinching three on a pass from Parker.

Against Phoenix, in Game 1 Parker hit the clutch basket late. In Game 5, Bowen on a pass from Parker made the biggest shot of the entire Spurs playoff run. Against the Cavs in Game 3, Parker's three-pointer virtually ended the game late.

However, I do agree with the notion that Manu is a different kind of clutch. He's a guy who will dig you out of a 10 point hole on the road in a must win playoff game. He's a guy who will draw a charge on one end and then draw the foul on the other end to put the game away. Manu has more game situational and competitive type clutchness. He's a guy who can win you a game with his play throughout the game and you can count on him 100% to never back down from pressure.

I just don't get where he's all of a sudden the clutchest sportsman ever.

Deimosfobos

11-14-2007, 05:29 PM

The Spurs had plenty of close games in last year's playoffs. Against Denver, the big shots and big plays were authored by Robert Horry. He had that series changing blocked shot and he had the game clinching three on a pass from Parker.

Against Phoenix, in Game 1 Parker hit the clutch basket late. In Game 5, Bowen on a pass from Parker made the biggest shot of the entire Spurs playoff run. Against the Cavs in Game 3, Parker's three-pointer virtually ended the game late.

However, I do agree with the notion that Manu is a different kind of clutch. He's a guy who will dig you out of a 10 point hole on the road in a must win playoff game. He's a guy who will draw a charge on one end and then draw the foul on the other end to put the game away. Manu has more game situational and competitive type clutchness. He's a guy who can win you a game with his play throughout the game and you can count on him 100% to never back down from pressure.

I just don't get where he's all of a sudden the clutchest sportsman ever.

Then we agree.

And who ever is saying he's the "clutchest sportsman ever" are just homers imo. I would always have Manu on clutch time, but not because of his winning shoots, but his winning effort.

meta2007

11-14-2007, 05:34 PM

Manu is the clutchest playmaker ever! :)

Overall, Manu and MJ are the clutchest basketball players ever.

MaNuMaNiAc

11-14-2007, 06:17 PM

The Spurs had plenty of close games in last year's playoffs. Against Denver, the big shots and big plays were authored by Robert Horry. He had that series changing blocked shot and he had the game clinching three on a pass from Parker.

Against Phoenix, in Game 1 Parker hit the clutch basket late. In Game 5, Bowen on a pass from Parker made the biggest shot of the entire Spurs playoff run. Against the Cavs in Game 3, Parker's three-pointer virtually ended the game late.

However, I do agree with the notion that Manu is a different kind of clutch. He's a guy who will dig you out of a 10 point hole on the road in a must win playoff game. He's a guy who will draw a charge on one end and then draw the foul on the other end to put the game away. Manu has more game situational and competitive type clutchness. He's a guy who can win you a game with his play throughout the game and you can count on him 100% to never back down from pressure.

I just don't get where he's all of a sudden the clutchest sportsman ever.
you do understand that it was just one or two people saying that, right? and one of them owned himself. I don't think you have to worry about this becoming a widespread notion bro

E20

11-14-2007, 06:24 PM

you do understand that it was just one or two people saying that, right? and one of them owned himself. I don't think you have to worry about this becoming a widespread notion bro
Timvp has a paranoia growing about the CoM. Everybody is a CoM member and they're out to get him. :lol

romain.star

11-14-2007, 07:26 PM

i had a great time reading this thread...... that's was really......... let's say funny!
To conclude : there are people from argentina who are fucked up for real !!!!!

ManuTim_best of Fwiendz

11-14-2007, 07:30 PM

Eh there are homers for every team, and player, national sportsmen, etc....

Statements like "Manu is the CLUTCHIEST player evarrr!!" are self-disputing. :lol

SpurOutofTownFan

11-14-2007, 07:49 PM

OK GUYS, let's stop the train!!!

I consider myself a Manu lover and still think he got robbed in 05, etc but Manu is not the clutchest player ever in the sense given to clutchness as we understand it.

Clutchness is usually associated to Robert Horry's type of game winning shots and the like.

The clutchness about Manu is a state of mind. He is just a winner under pressure. He would draw a foul while attempting a three pointer while your team is down 5 points and the game is going away. He will make a steal at the beginning of the key, drive into the basket for a lay-up, come back, steal another ball, make a brilliant around the back pass and let a team-mate dunk. People love him for that.

He is a guy who would go histerical after hitting a three and the team ties the game. He would pump up the crowd with his fists up. He would yell out like a possessed individual making weird faces and people would just jump on his wagon.

He is just that kind of player that can take a team to win almost anything no matter what the odds are.

How many times have we seen Manu taking the team by himself and winning impossible games? Do you guys remember the Denver series, the first one 3 years ago? when he single-handly beat the entire Nuggest team and Karl started calling him the biggest flopper ever, in a bastard attempt at killing his character? I remember the rest of the team having an incredible off night that day.

Or single-handly raping the Suns in their own turf? They got to the point that Manu couldn't touch a ball without being booed constantly. If my memory is correct I have never ever seen anything like it from a crowd before. All the time, the entire game.

Manu just has an incredible vision of the floor and his senses become very sharp under pressure. When others fail, he comes out victorious. Of course mistakes can happen but we've seen they are mostly flukes.

Manu has helped the Spurs put games away just by being "clutch" at the right moment. I remember almost the entire year last year when he would come back in the 3rd period with his unit and just put the game away for good. Some teams were so afraid of this that asked their players to pay special attention on 3rd quarters.

Somebody mentioned Horry and wining shots. I remember game 5 against Pistons when Horry hit that three, it was an impossible pass from Manu with almost no room and with Sheed all over him. That was it.

Anyway, that's all I have to say. Don't need to add anything else.

meta2007

11-14-2007, 08:34 PM

Robert Horry is the clutchest shooter ever! :)

timvp

11-14-2007, 11:35 PM

Timvp has a paranoia growing about the CoM. Everybody is a CoM member and they're out to get him. :lolDid you miss where timvp was baptized by the Church of Manu? I am one of them now.

T Park

11-14-2007, 11:41 PM

Manu is a BIG GAME PLAYER.

He is CLUTCH in big games.

But i wouldn't classify him as a clutch shooter.

To be honest, I don't remember the last time he even shot a clutch shot.

MaNuMaNiAc

11-14-2007, 11:42 PM

Did you miss where timvp was baptized by the Church of Manu? I am one of them now.Altar boy at best

timvp

11-15-2007, 12:00 AM

In last year's playoffs, here is how each player faired in the clutch. (With clutch defined as less than 5 minutes left in the 4th quarter or overtime with neither team ahead by more than 5 points.)

Tim Duncan
.429 field goal percentage
.688 free throw percentage (+5% from the regular season)
3 assists
0 passing turnovers

Manu Ginobili
.273 field goal percentage
.840 free throw percentage (+1% from the regular season)
2 assists
5 passing turnovers

Tony Parker
.583 field goal percentage
100% free throw percentage
3 assists
0 passing turnovers

Robert Horry
100% field goal percentage
no free throws
no assists
no turnovers

Bruce Bowen
.400 field goal percentage
no free throws
2 assists
0 passing turnovers

Fabricio Oberto
.500 field goal percentage
100% free throw percentage
no assists
no turnovers

Pretty interesting numbers. Not sure what to take out of them other than Horry's clutchness is even apparent in the numbers. :lol

E20

11-15-2007, 12:04 AM

E20

11-15-2007, 12:05 AM

And you left out the most compelling stat: Points.

timvp

11-15-2007, 12:09 AM

Compelling stats, but you have to take this into consideration who handles the ball the most in crunch and who takes the most shots during clutch time.I don't see the stats as compelling? Tough to take much out of them, actually.

And you left out the most compelling stat: Points.The site, 82games.com, doesn't list straight up points. I guess I can figure it out given the shooting percentages . . .

E20

11-15-2007, 12:11 AM

I don't see the stats as compelling? Tough to take much out of them, actually.

The stats are compelling, because people hail Manu as being clutch, but isn't it compelling that he only averages 27% shooting FG in crunch time?

The site, 82games.com, doesn't list straight up points. I guess I can figure it out given the shooting percentages . .
I expected better from 82games, but you never know, what if Manu takes a butt load of attempts and makes like 1/4 of them and averages like 10-15 points during the clutch?

E20

11-15-2007, 12:15 AM

meta2007

11-15-2007, 12:16 AM

I guess they include those shots that Manu was fouled!

The stats are compelling, because people hail Manu as being clutch, but isn't it compelling that he only averages 27% shooting FG in crunch time?

I expected better from 82games, but you never know, what if Manu takes a butt load of attempts and makes like 1/4 of them and averages like 10-15 points during the clutch?

E20

11-15-2007, 12:20 AM

I am going to indulge in the Manu homerism and say that although Manu was averaging 27% FG's in the clutch, it is judged by per 48 minutes, and he also averages 40.6 points in the clutch too. :lol

You can't make much out of these stats.

timvp

11-15-2007, 12:25 AM

http://www.82games.com/0607/06SAS4E.HTM RS
http://www.82games.com/0607/playoffs/06SAS4E.HTM PO's
There are Manu's stats during the clutch for 06-07 RS/PO. Since we're talking about Manu here I left out everybody else.It looks like Manu was 3-for-11 last year in clutch situations. He went 21-for-25 from the free throw line, but if I understand the stats right 18 of those attempts were on intentional fouls.

Comparing to others, Duncan was 6-for-14 from the field and 11-for-16 from the line. Parker for 8-for-12 from the field and 4-for-4 from the line.

E20

11-15-2007, 12:29 AM

It looks like Manu was 3-for-11 last year in clutch situations. He went 21-for-25 from the free throw line, but if I understand the stats right 18 of those attempts were on intentional fouls.

Comparing to others, Duncan was 6-for-14 from the field and 11-for-16 from the line. Parker for 8-for-12 from the field and 4-for-4 from the line.
So with Manu having a sub par FG%, and garnering the most passing TO's, yet averaging 40.6 points in the clutch, would you still say it is safe to have the ball in his hands in the clutch?

timvp

11-15-2007, 12:35 AM

So with Manu having a sub par FG%, and garnering the most passing TO's, yet averaging 40.6 points in the clutch, would you still say it is safe to have the ball in his hands in the clutch?Yeah. If the chips are down and you need a play, Manu is one of the first players in the league I'd trust to make that play.

ManuTim_best of Fwiendz

11-15-2007, 12:36 AM

I think this is one of those instances where you had to watch the actual games in those clutch situations.

timvp

11-15-2007, 12:41 AM

It looks like Manu was 3-for-11 last year in clutch situations. In the first 19 games of the playoffs, Manu was 1-for-9 from the field in clutch situations. In Game 4 of the Finals, Manu was 2-for-2.

Pretty good timing. :smokin

meta2007

11-15-2007, 01:17 AM

If this stats was from the last 5 mins of every playoff games, I do not think they can be called clutch time because Spurs often lead.

Clutch time should be 'behind or tie or lead by little', and that is 'Manu Time'. And that could happen at the first half of the 4th quarters.

Don't change the concept!

In the first 19 games of the playoffs, Manu was 1-for-9 from the field in clutch situations. In Game 4 of the Finals, Manu was 2-for-2.

Pretty good timing. :smokin

Manudona

11-15-2007, 01:43 AM

Of course I agree Manu's shot is everything but clutch, but then we have this posted in a different thread (bold is mine):

He also will make fools of everyone who measures players by their numbers. He's averaged only about 14 points a game over his NBA career, for example. But in just the fourth quarters of the last road games in each of the Phoenix, Utah and Cleveland series last season, he averaged about 15 points.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/...en.34225c4.html

ShoogarBear

11-15-2007, 03:02 AM

The Most Underrated Primate In Molecular HistoryGigaLOL

ShoogarBear

11-15-2007, 03:05 AM

Manu Ginobili
.273 field goal percentage
.840 free throw percentage (+1% from the regular season)
2 assists
5 passing turnovers

Tony Parker
.583 field goal percentage
100% free throw percentage
3 assists
0 passing turnovers
Can a Church have a collective Chode Explosion?

MB20

11-15-2007, 09:46 AM

Manu´s a clutch free throw shooter.
He plays harder during 4th quarters. Sometimes he forces it, and commits turnovers....But he has the balls to take those risks.

About the clutchiest primate whatever...that´s just plain stupidity.