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Wild Cobra
11-25-2007, 01:15 PM
I don't like to quote entire articles like some here do, but I'll make an exception here, because each paragraph of this one is pretty good. I have said several times that democrats are invested in defeat. This article might persuade some of you I'm right.

The Stab That Failed (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/014/405lrbpc.asp?pg=1)


Eagerly anticipating the defeat in Iraq to which they are so much attached, some on the left have also been preparing for another contingency: the assault that they think they see coming, a drive to pin the whole wretched failure on them. Apparently, this will be "stab in the back" redux, a new iteration of the theme deployed so successfully in interwar Germany by a resourceful, ambitious Austrian corporal, who managed to propel his rise to power with the claim that World War I would have been won by his country, if not for sinister forces at home. Then, it was subversion by Jews and other disloyal elements. This time, in the left's imagining, the blame will fall on the press and the Democrats who, by pulling the plug at just the wrong moment, caused the loss of Iraq. "Nobody I know in a rational condition believes that the United States is going to have any kind of a military victory," Mark Shields said in August. "So the idea is going to be, 'We were on the cusp of victory and the rug was pulled out from under us by these willy-nilly, weak-kneed, nervous Nellies back home.'"

The problem with this is (1) that we may really win, and have no failure to blame upon anyone, and (2) that the nervous Nellies really did try to keep us from winning, indeed fought fang and claw to derail our best efforts. If they had had their way, Iraq would still be the quagmire they are so fond of invoking, and the United States--or George W. Bush, which may be the more relevant factor--would have incurred a definitive and, at least in his case, legacy-blasting defeat. It is unfair of course to call this a stab in the back, as the Democrats have been engagingly open about their intentions. In the course of the past year, they have gone from attacking a plan that had not been effective to attacking one that hadn't been tried yet, to attacking one that exceeded all expectations, while in the process ignoring reality, slandering a commanding general, and denying American forces in battle due credit for what they had done. If not backstabbing as such (see above), it is diverting enough a spectacle to merit a replay. Let us look back at this last year of battle and see how the story played out.

When our tale opens, it is the last month of 2006, Democrats have just scored a blowout in Congress, Iraq is in shambles, and the country is calling for Bush to change course. He does. But he changes course in the other direction, radically revising his Iraq strategy, adopting aggressive new rules of engagement, and sending in 30,000 more troops. Even before the plan was announced to the public on January 10, 2007, Democrats launched their assault. Senator Christopher Dodd declared the plan useless: "A 'surge' of American troops will do nothing." Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi, the top Democrats in the new Congress, released an open letter to Bush on January 5, decrying his redoubled effort as futile: "Surging forces is a strategy that you have already tried, and that has already failed." The surge was "a sad, ominous echo of something we've lived through in this country," according to Illinois senator Richard Durbin. "I'm confident it will not work," said John Kerry at a Senate hearing, a sentiment echoed by Barack Obama. "Verdict first, trial afterwards," said the Red Queen in Alice in Wonderland, unaware of her future as a role model for America's congressional Democrats. And then it really got strange.

Senate Democrats joined the Republicans in late January in unanimously confirming the appointment of General David Petraeus, a counterinsurgency expert and coauthor of the new surge proposal, sending him off with godspeed and good wishes to the front. Then they began to try to kneecap his efforts, seeking to deny him troops and/or money in an ongoing series of votes of no confidence, coupled with predictions that he would not succeed. Lest anyone at home or abroad not get their message, they rapidly passed two resolutions declaring their profound lack of faith in his mission. One, from Carl Levin on February 5, declared the Senate's disagreement with the "plan to augment our forces"; the other, from Harry Reid two weeks later, declared it the sense of Congress that "Congress disapproves of the decision of President George W. Bush announced on January 10, 2007, to deploy more than 20,000 additional United States combat troops to Iraq."

Afraid of moving directly to defund the armed forces, Democrats decided on a series of steps that would have the same effect without saying so, i.e., putting so many restrictions and regulations on troop deployments that the number available would in effect be greatly reduced. These would be sponsored by veterans (James Webb and John Murtha), and the stated goal would be to help the armed forces. The real goal, however, was to strangle the surge in its crib. "Top House Democrats, working in concert with antiwar groups, have decided against using congressional power to force a
quick end to U.S. involvement .  .  . and instead will pursue a slow-bleed strategy designed to gradually limit the administration's options," Politico reported on February 13, adding that the "goal is to limit or sharply reduce the number of U.S. troops available for the Iraq conflict, rather than to openly cut off funding for the war itself."

At the beginning, it had been made abundantly clear that the surge would take place in stages, that it would build gradually over a three- to five-month period, and would not begin to take full effect until June. This did not stop Reid from declaring in April that the surge had been tried, and had failed. "I believe myself that the secretary of state, the secretary of defense--and you have to make your own decision as to what the president knows--know that this war is lost and that the surge is not accomplishing anything," he said April 19.

Others piled on. "The surge was supposed to bring stability.... It hasn't and it won't," Ted Kennedy said on May 1. "The evidence is clear it is not happening and it will not happen," Dodd said May 15 of a potential American victory. Durbin said the day after: "This Senate knows that the administration's policy in Iraq has failed." Senator Joseph Biden agreed. "The surge has not worked and will not work," he said on June 1. And in a joint letter to the president on June 13, Reid and Pelosi said, "As many had foreseen, the escalation has failed to produce the intended results."

Having ordered Petraeus to make a progress report in September, the plan had been to wait until then--and the bad news they seemed sure would be coming--to deliver the coup de grâce. In July, however, the congressional Democrats decided September wouldn't come fast enough. As Harry Reid put it on July 9, "Democrats and military experts and the American people know the president's current strategy is not working and we cannot wait until September to act." As Dianne Feinstein put it, "Today, a majority of the Senate sees that the surge is not working.... Do we change course now or do we wait until September?... I believe the answer is clear." James Webb, sponsoring an amendment that would cripple the surge, made it clear that whatever Petraeus said wouldn't matter to him. "I don't care what the report says next week. I don't care what the report says in September."

At the end of July, as Congress left town for its midsummer recess, the Democrats took their first blow. An op-ed in the New York Times by Kenneth Pollack and Michael O'Hanlon of the Brookings Institution--both men who initially supported the war but had become harsh critics--said they had been to Iraq and seen a substantial change in the climate, and believed for the first time there was hope. (The headline on their piece was even more upbeat: "A War We Just Might Win.") Worse still, some Democrats who went to Iraq over the recess came back and said they had seen signs of progress themselves. While a few Democrats said that what they had seen made them less likely to call for retreat and more likely to give the troops time to accomplish their mission, most proved themselves more than up to the job of putting bad spin on good news.

"Democrats have been forced to recalibrate their own message in the face of recent positive signs on the security front," the Washington Post reported on August 22, 2007, "increasingly focusing their criticisms on what those military gains have not achieved." First on the list of things not accomplished was the creation of a strong central government. A pattern was emerging in which goalposts were moved steadily backward with each new accomplishment. First, military success was pronounced unattainable; when it occurred it was called insufficient. When once-hostile Sunni sheikhs begged to join the Shia-led police and armed forces, this too was called meaningless, as long as the "leaders" in Baghdad kept squabbling. Taking their lead from the media, where good news was no news and setbacks always resulted in large, screaming headlines, the war critics pronounced anything that was accomplished unimportant the moment it happened.

Fearful that Petraeus and Ambassador Ryan Crocker might report too much progress in their much-anticipated testimony to Congress in September, Democrats launched a preemptive assault on the duo. "Leading Democrats .  .  . preemptively assailed the expected findings on Iraq due this week from Gen. David H. Petraeus as 'dead, flat wrong' and said President Bush's likely call for continued patience in the war would simply extend an 'unconscionable' and 'completely unacceptable' policy," reported the International Herald Tribune on September 9, two days before the hearing was scheduled. "The pointed comments from the Democrats .  .  . seemed designed to undercut the impact of the much-awaited reports." Representative Ed Markey of Massachusetts referred to the general's testimony as a "Petraeus village .  .  . a façade to hide from view the continuing failure of the Bush administration's strategy." Rahm Emanuel said, "We don't need a report that wins the Nobel Prize for creative statistics, or the Pulitzer for fiction." The testimony required the "willing suspension of disbelief," said Hillary Clinton (a past master at the skill, as she had suspended it often enough in regard to her husband). "By carefully manipulating the statistics, the Bush-Petraeus report will try to persuade us that the violence in Iraq is decreasing, and the surge is working," said Dick Durbin. In an unintentional echo of the New York Times's famous "fake but accurate" defense of Dan Rather's fictional documents about President Bush's presumed derelictions of duty in the Texas Air National Guard, Durbin said: "Even if the figures are right, the conclusion is wrong." In less than a year, the Democrats had gone from demanding a change in a policy that was failing, to demanding a change in a policy that hadn't been tried yet, to demanding a change in a policy that at the very least had forestalled disaster and was proving to have some success.

October 2006 was the worst month in Iraq since the war started, with violence spiking all over the country, and death numbers reaching new highs. In November 2006, the Democrats had their best midterm election in 20 years, winning back both the House and the Senate and gaining a large lead in the generic ballot heading into the election of 2008. The two incidents were not unrelated, and, as a result, the party laid down a huge bet on Iraq the Debacle, calculating that the disaster would drive swing voters into their column. "Senator Schumer has shown me numbers that are compelling and astounding," a gleeful Harry Reid said on April 12, 2007, to reporters. "We are going to pick up Senate seats as a result of this war." A poll taken by Fox News in September showed that 19 percent of Democrats thought it would be good for the world if the United States lost in Iraq, and another 20 percent weren't sure either way. The depth of the left's investment in an Iraq defeat came out during the last week in July, when, hearing from General Jack Keane that the surge might be working, Representative Nancy Boyda was so shaken she fled a congressional hearing. "There was only so much that you could take until we in fact had to leave the room for a while," she explained. "Democrats like Boyda would like to preserve in amber the state of public opinion that prevailed during the 2006 election and the first half of this year," noted Michael Barone. "The more cynical among them want to make political gain from that; the less cynical want to end a conflict that is taking American lives as fast as they can." Democrats claim that their motives are pure, but it is a strange form of patriotic dissent that attacks a plan as having failed before it has started, anoints a commander, attacks him, and then tries to sandbag his efforts; calls a plan a failure in April when it has been explained many times that it will be June before it can be implemented, and then, when qualified observers see some signs of progress, either collapses in an attack of the vapors or erupts in howls of unrelieved rage.

Since then, the Democrats have moved on to controlling nondamage; i.e., putting the worst face on good news. First, they said military success was impossible; then they said only political success was important; when political success began to happen at the local and provincial levels, they said it was the wrong kind or had come about for all the wrong reasons. When Sunni tribes in Anbar Province turned on al Qaeda and allied themselves with American forces, Chuck Schumer was there to explain it away. "Let me be clear: the violence in Anbar has gone down despite the surge, not because of the surge," Schumer said in early September. "The lack of protection for these tribes from al Qaeda made it clear to these tribes, 'we have to fight al Qaeda ourselves.' It wasn't that the surge brought peace here." Memo to Schumer: (1) Before they turned, the Sunnis of Anbar were fighting with al Qaeda against us, not seeking protection from us; (2) Sunnis drove al Qaeda from Anbar in collaboration with American forces; (3) while the Sunnis had been becoming displeased with al Qaeda for some time, it was only when surge-added security made it possible for them to defect without being murdered that they began to come over in droves. Likewise, when casualty rates started falling off drastically among Iraqi citizens, David Obey rose to the occasion, telling a bemused audience at the National Press Club that this was because there was no one left in Iraq to be killed by insurgents.

Earlier this month, when General Petraeus reported that al Qaeda had been cleared out of Baghdad, and when American and Iraqi forces held a unity march in Ramadi (which you surely saw reported in your daily newspapers and newscasts, didn't you?), the Gang That Couldn't Stab Straight announced they would make their 41st effort to force a change of course in the war. Against all the evidence, Reid and Pelosi announced that things in Iraq were now worse than ever. (Translation: We owe it to our base to get this thing throttled, before things improve even more.) "It's not getting better, it's getting worse," Reid intoned solemnly. Other Democrats persisted in claiming against all evidence that Americans were "refereeing a civil war" and continued to demand a "change" in a strategy that exceeded all expectations. They talked as they had for nearly a year of "peeling off" disaffected Republicans who, if they had not peeled off earlier when things really were dire, were surely not peeling off now.

For the first time, even reporters were starting to -giggle. Doubtless this has to do with new polling data, which show views on the war ticking upward from the disastrous nadir of early this year. Though the successes have been underreported, a Pew Research Poll found that 44 percent of Americans think the war is going "very" or "fairly" well, while a CBS poll found the number of Democrats thinking the war was going "very badly" had fallen 12 points (to 45 percent) over three months. According to Charles Franklin, a nonpartisan pollster, "Republicans (including the president) have made real progress in swaying opinion to their side, while 10 months of Democratic efforts have failed to persuade citizens that the war continues to be a disaster. The war of partisan persuasion has tilted towards Republicans and away from the Democrats, at least in this particular aspect," he said on his blog.

Denying reality is seldom sound politics. President Bush is still suffering from the aftereffects of the reality gap of 2006, when he insisted, in the face of mounds of contrary evidence, that things were improving in Iraq when it was clear they were not. The Democrats are now doing the same thing in reverse, closing their minds to all news that is not catastrophic, or, on the rare occasions they admit to a small sign of progress, denying all credit to our strategy, to our leaders, or, worst of all, to our troops. Perhaps what the Democrats really want is for the surge to succeed, but to appear to be failing, at least until the 2008 elections are over. But this seems a fairly hard thing to explain to the public.

As they took control of Congress at the start of 2007, the Democrats vowed this would be a year of historic importance, and it seems they were prescient: Seldom before in the annals of governance have so many politicians fought so long and so hard to completely screw up a winning strategy being waged on their country's behalf. Some cruelly define this as treacherous conduct, but this is imprecise and unkind. They tried, it is true, to do serious damage, but were compromised in the event by their chronic incompetence, as well as by being too above-board and open to try to do things on the sly. A stab in the back as a concept was wholly beyond their capacities. This was not a stab in the back that works via guile and subterfuge. It was 41 different stabs in the front, that always fell far short of serious damage, unless you count the damage they did to their own reputations (the approval ratings for Congress are now in the twenties). It was the Stab in the Front, the Surge-against-the-Surge, the Pickett's Charge of the Great War on Terror. It was a year to remember, that will live in the annals of fecklessness. It was historical. It was hysterical. It was the Stab that Failed.

boutons_
11-25-2007, 01:34 PM
"defeat", defeat-ocrats, total right-wing shill, checklist bullshit.

We The People want out of Iraq by overwhelming majority and are really pissed the Dems haven't even slowed down the occupation, never mind withdrawal.

How can our kick-ass military be "defeated" when they slam-dunk removed Saddam and got "regime change",

prevented Saddam from bombing the fuck of the USA with his "nuclear paperwork",

claim the Bagdad surge resulted in the big dropoff in violence (no other reason is possible),

overwhelmingly occupied, broke, and oppressed Iraq ???

Iraq democracy is established

dubya-created AQI defeated.

So why have dubya and dickhead staying in Iraq? The Iraqis have not voted to give away their oil to US oilcos.

The only victory that dubya really wants is that oil to enrich the US oilcos, and his intention is to stay their for decades to make sure the US oilcos the Iraqi people.

And of course, the ultimate prize is to "regime change" Iran and grab their oil.

boutons_
11-25-2007, 02:12 PM
With victory (aka oil grab) still elusive and unapproved by the Iraqi parliament, the Repugs dumbdown "victory" in their spin campaign to prolong the Iraqi occupation, no matter what.

Eternally lying and moving the goalposts (without ever stating the true goal of oil grab) is the Repug / neo-cunt game.

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November 25, 2007
U.S. Scales Back Political Goals in Iraq

By STEVEN LEE MYERS (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/m/steven_lee_myers/index.html?inline=nyt-per) and ALISSA J. RUBIN
WASHINGTON, Nov. 24 — With American military successes outpacing political gains in Iraq (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/iraq/index.html?inline=nyt-geo), the Bush administration has lowered its expectation of quickly achieving major steps toward unifying the country, including passage of a long-stymied plan to share oil revenues and holding regional elections.

Instead, administration officials say they are focusing their immediate efforts on several more limited but achievable goals in the hope of convincing Iraqis, foreign governments and Americans that progress is being made toward the political breakthroughs that the military campaign of the past 10 months was supposed to promote.

( The "political breakthrough" is a obscuring euphemism for passage of the revenue-sharing oil program )


The short-term American targets include passage of a $48 billion Iraqi budget, something the Iraqis say they are on their way to doing anyway; renewing the United Nations (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/u/united_nations/index.html?inline=nyt-org) mandate that authorizes an American presence in the country, which the Iraqis have done repeatedly before; and passing legislation to allow thousands of Baath Party members from Saddam Hussein (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/h/saddam_hussein/index.html?inline=nyt-per)’s era to rejoin the government. A senior Bush administration official described that goal as largely symbolic since rehirings have been quietly taking place already.


( if the Iraqi parliament votes down their approval of the US occupation, is anybody so deluded to think dubya respect the democratic will of the Iraqi people? )

Bush administration officials have not abandoned their larger goals and emphasize the importance of reaching them eventually. They say that even modest steps, taken soon, could set the stage for more progress, in the same manner that this year’s troop “surge” opened the way, unexpectedly, for drawing Sunni tribesmen to the American side. A senior official said the administration was intensifying its pressure on the Iraqi government to produce some concrete signs of political progress.

“If we can show progress outside of the security sector alone, that will go a long way to demonstrate that we are in fact on a sustainable path to stability in Iraq,” the senior official said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

( "Iraq stability" is just a straw man invented by neo-cunts. The Brits withdrew from Basra, and instability broke out, with violence dropping 90% http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif )

On Saturday, Ryan C. Crocker (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/c/ryan_c_crocker/index.html?inline=nyt-per), the American ambassador to Baghdad, said that the military had created an opportunity for progress, adding that there were some indications that Iraqis on the local as well as the national level want to move forward. But he cautioned against expecting quick results on the core issues. “We are seeing encouraging signs of movement,” he said, but added, “This is going to be a long, hard slog.”

( yep, decades and decades dubya said, like in Korea, spending 100s of $Bs to occupy Iraq paid for by US debt so the oilco's can grab the oil and gouge the US market )


“It is going to be one thing at a time, maybe two things at a time, w
e hope with increasing momentum,” he said. “It is a long-term process.”

( The US was to have only 30k troops left in Iraq by September 2003. Nobody trusts the Repugs and neo-cunts to have any idea of what the fuck is going on in Iraq, and certainly not what will be going on )


The White House has been elated by the drop in violence since the increase in American forces, now 162,000 troops. Public comments by President Bush and his aides, though, have been muted, reflecting frustration at the lack of political progress, a continuation of a pattern in which intense American efforts to promote broader reconciliation have proved largely fruitless. There have been signs that American influence over Iraqi politics is dwindling after the recent improvements in security — which remain incomplete, as shown by a deadly bombing Friday in Baghdad. While Bush officials once said they aimed to secure “reconciliation” among Iraq’s deeply divided religious, ethnic and sectarian groups, some officials now refer to their goal as “accommodation.”

“We can’t pass their legislation,” a senior American official in Baghdad said. “We can’t make them like each other. We can’t even make them talk to each other. Well, sometimes we can. But we can help them execute their budget.”

Ambassador Crocker drew a distinction between the effectiveness of the American military buildup in quelling violence and the influence the United States could bring to bear at a political level.

“The political stuff does not lend itself to sending out a couple of battalions to help the Iraqi’s pass legislation,” he said.

Still, he said, there were some positive signs that Iraqis were interested in making headway on some thorny issues. Provincial governors, he said, were pressing for a law to define their powers. “We are past the point where it is an American agenda,” the ambassador said. “It is what needs to be done in Iraqi terms.”

Officials in Washington and in Baghdad share the view that military gains alone are not enough to overcome the deep distrust among Iraqi factions caused by nearly five decades of dictatorship and war. And in both capitals there are leaders who continue to hold out hope for broad political gains, eventually.

“We need a grand bargain among all the groups,” said one senior member of Iraq’s government, speaking on the condition of anonymity.

But with that not yet in sight, Bush administration officials said they hoped approval of a few initial steps might lead to more substantive agreements next year, including provincial elections, which the White House wants to see held before Mr. Bush leaves office in less than 14 months.

The prospect of such elections has been politically delicate because of the fear that some regions, like Shiite-dominated southern Iraq, are most likely to vote for leaders who support stronger regional governments at the expense of the Baghdad administration.

While one Bush administration official called the renewed pressure on Baghdad a “political surge” after the increase in troop levels this year, most of what Washington is seeking appears to reflect a diminished and more realistic set of expectations after months of little political progress.

The troop increase at the beginning of the year was intended to create the conditions to improve Iraq’s political stability, measured by so-called benchmarks, including a broad agreement on sharing oil revenues.

But those benchmarks remain largely unfulfilled. The administration’s critics in Congress have cited the lack of progress toward those benchmarks as evidence that the White House is on the wrong track and ought to begin a rapid pullout of combat forces.

Perhaps the most achievable of the administration’s short-term targets, American and Iraqi officials said, is legislation that would allow thousands of members of the Hussein-era Baath Party, most of them Sunnis, to return to government positions.

A senior administration official described that legislation as largely symbolic — since the Shiite-dominated government had begun to accommodate some Sunni officials in practice — but important in that it would at last signal some progress, capitalizing on the relative lull in violence.

Other immediate steps the Bush administration is pressing the Iraqi government to take include passing a budget, $48 billion for the coming year, and again renewing the United Nations mandate for the American troop presence before it expires at the end of the year.

In Baghdad, Iraqi officials indicated that the various parties, which like much of the country are defined largely by sect or ethnicity, remained far apart on the more difficult issues of sharing power and revenues. But some seemed surprised by the idea that the Bush administration would apply more pressure.

Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/m/nuri_kamal_al-maliki/index.html?inline=nyt-per)’s political adviser, Sadiq al-Rikabi, said none was needed to persuade the Iraqi leaders and Parliament to approve a budget. “Every state needs a budget,” he said. “It’s impossible to function without a budget. It does not need any push from anyone.”

At the same time, though, he expressed an appreciation for the Bush administration’s effort to keep all sides talking.

American officials note that as routine as it may seem to pass a budget, the Iraqis did not quickly adopt the current one.

Although the White House no longer faces the immediate prospect of losing crucial political support for the war — because the opponents lack the votes needed in Congress to force a policy change — the imperative for political progress remains, if only because of the American elections in less than a year.

Despite the reduction in violence, with attacks now down to levels last seen in early 2006, some Democrats in Congress have continued to press for a timeline for a withdrawal. Most recently, the House tried to tie a deadline to a $50 billion war spending bill, although that proposal died in the Senate.

When Congress debated the war earlier this year, the administration pushed hard for the Iraqis to approve some of the legislation. Several times, for example, the law on dispensing oil revenues, which are now surging because of high world oil prices, appeared on the brink of adoption, only to stall.

One of the immediate American concerns is getting Iraq to request extending the United Nations mandate. In Baghdad, a senior Iraqi government official said that the extension would not be a problem, but that there was little progress in negotiating the longer-term agreements on a “strategic partnership” with the United States.

“It’s the status of forces agreement that we have to start on,” the official said. That agreement, although not an issue until 2009 or later, is a far more delicate matter because it will frame the future military relationship between the countries.

The most important thing the Americans can do is keep Iraq’s political blocs — Shiite and Sunni Arab and Kurds — talking to one another and help them understand legislation now being debated, several Iraqi politicians said. Only with concrete information, they said, could rumors be dispelled that legislation might help or hurt certain groups.

“So far, the activities of the American Embassy are a bit limited in this regard,” said Qassim Daoud, an independent Shiite in Parliament, who served as a minister for security in the government of Ayad Allawi (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/a/iyad_allawi/index.html?inline=nyt-per) before Iraq regain its own sovereignty.

Earlier this month, the White House dispatched several senior aides to Baghdad to work with the Iraqis on specific legislative areas. They include the under secretary of state for economic, energy and agricultural affairs, Reuben Jeffery III, who is working on the budget and oil law; the State Department’s senior Iraq adviser, David M. Satterfield, who is focused on the elections and de-Baathification law; and Brett McGurk, the National Security Council (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/n/national_security_council/index.html?inline=nyt-org)’s Iraq director, who is pressing for the United Nations mandate and a longer security agreement. All have been meeting with a variety of officials and party leaders across Iraq, a senior administration official said.

American officials in Baghdad appear to understand the limitations they face and are focusing on pragmatic goals like helping the Iraqi government spend the money in its budget. That, officials in both countries said, could do more than anything else to ease tensions and build support for the national government.

“I think reconciliation will eventually come,” a senior Bush administration official said, but added, “That’s a long way down the path.”

Steven Lee Myers reported from Washington, and Alissa J. Rubin from Baghdad. Michael R. Gordon contributed from London.

===================

How many 100s of $Bs and 1000s of lives will dubya sacrifice for the oil grab?

Wild Cobra
11-25-2007, 02:14 PM
"defeat", defeat-ocrats, total right-wing shill, checklist bullshit.

They may not actually want to lose, but like I said they are invested in defeat. A win in Iraq puts the democrat party in shame.



We The People want out of Iraq by overwhelming majority and are really pissed the Dems haven't even slowed down the occupation, never mind withdrawal.

Count me as one who wants us out.

Sure we want out, but remember how polls are questioned. I am one that wants us out of Iraq too. However, I don't want us to leave until Iraq is stable enough to govern itself.



How can our kick-ass military be "defeated" when they slam-dunk removed Saddam and got "regime change",

Defeat is if we leave, and Iraq returns to anything like it was under Saddam. It will no doubt be worse if we leave now, and allow the radicalized extremists prevail. The democrats keep trying to impose timetables, which will surely lead to defeat.



prevented Saddam from bombing the fuck of the USA with his "nuclear paperwork",

That was never a fear. Who's propaganda are you listening to anyway?



claim the Bagdad surge resulted in the big dropoff in violence (no other reason is possible),

But it did. Now it isn't newsworthy anymore, being push back to the back pages of the New York Times. Cannot put liberal spin on the real news coming out very often any more.



overwhelmingly occupied, broke, and oppressed Iraq ???

The people are far less oppressed than under Saddam. Their incomes are rising as a whole. We are there as peace keepers, not occupiers. This talk of 'occupation' from our officials should be considered at the least, seditious, and perhaps treasonous. These words embolden the enemy, as it would us, if we were occupied.



Iraq democracy is established

Yes, but it cannot yet protect itself.



dubya-created AQI defeated.

So why have dubya and dickhead staying in Iraq? The Iraqis have not voted to give away their oil to US oilcos.

They won't give it away either, nor are they expected to. Long term contracts for the building of facilities in exchange for buying oil is not giving it away. It’s a fair exchange.



The only victory that dubya really wants is that oil to enrich the US oilcos, and his intention is to stay their for decades to make sure the US oilcos the Iraqi people.

Prove it, or shut up about that slander. No one yet has produced any valid evidence. Opinion pieces are not evidence.



And of course, the ultimate prize is to "regime change" Iran and grab their oil.

More propaganda. It is very unlikely we will do anything against Iran except for actions through the UN.

Walter Craparita
11-25-2007, 02:30 PM
Of course the dems would love for us to fail in Iraq. They don't want to inherit this clusterfuck and then look like idiots because they can't retreat.

They'll just blame the tanking economy, chaos overseas, etc on the Reps. No biggie.

boutons_
11-25-2007, 02:41 PM
"they are invested in defeat."

the Dems are trying accomplish what We The People want accomplished. Neo-cunt/Repug victory is being dumbed down while they slime We The People as defeatists, responsible for dubya/dickhead's failures and incompetences in Iraq, while the Taliban ascend to 50% control of Afghanistan, and OBL operates with impunity in FATAs.

"Iraq is stable enough to govern itself."

The perfect open-ended, decades-long pretext for oppressive occupation and oil-grabbing. Basra is damn stable after the Brits withdrew.

"unlikely we will do anything against Iran"

Google for "US moving ship fuel and ships to the Arabian sea", that'ls either sabre-rattling, or a military buildup in preparation for an attack, or both. Dubya/dickhead/Repugs will be running the Exec for only 14 more months, and the window to attack Iran, and commit the next Exec to Iran, will probably be closed a couple months before the 08 election, so the attack-Iran window is probably only 8 or 9 months.

You can't prove that dubya DIDN'T go into Iraq for oil, while all the "proof" for invading Iraq (WMD, Saddam-WTC, Saddam-AQ, Saddam-terra) all have been disproven, so what's left? As Greenspan said, and as many other observers have believed for years, Iraq invasion is all about the oil.

I'll stop "sliming" about the oil grab, when you stop sliming We The People about defeatism.

PixelPusher
11-25-2007, 04:17 PM
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16464885

George Gervin's Afro
11-25-2007, 04:46 PM
Eagerly anticipating the defeat in Iraq to which they are so much attached, some on the left have also been preparing for another contingency:


you lost me here. sorry but you cannot have a serious conversation with someone who starts a piece like this.... You have bigger problems than Democrats if you entertain the thought that anyone wants to lose this war.. in fact I would counter we have already won the war.

George Gervin's Afro
11-25-2007, 04:52 PM
They may not actually want to lose, but like I said they are invested in defeat. A win in Iraq puts the democrat party in shame.


Count me as one who wants us out.

Sure we want out, but remember how polls are questioned. I am one that wants us out of Iraq too. However, I don't want us to leave until Iraq is stable enough to govern itself.


Defeat is if we leave, and Iraq returns to anything like it was under Saddam. It will no doubt be worse if we leave now, and allow the radicalized extremists prevail. The democrats keep trying to impose timetables, which will surely lead to defeat.


That was never a fear. Who's propaganda are you listening to anyway?


But it did. Now it isn't newsworthy anymore, being push back to the back pages of the New York Times. Cannot put liberal spin on the real news coming out very often any more.


The people are far less oppressed than under Saddam. Their incomes are rising as a whole. We are there as peace keepers, not occupiers. This talk of 'occupation' from our officials should be considered at the least, seditious, and perhaps treasonous. These words embolden the enemy, as it would us, if we were occupied.


Yes, but it cannot yet protect itself.


They won't give it away either, nor are they expected to. Long term contracts for the building of facilities in exchange for buying oil is not giving it away. It’s a fair exchange.


Prove it, or shut up about that slander. No one yet has produced any valid evidence. Opinion pieces are not evidence.


More propaganda. It is very unlikely we will do anything against Iran except for actions through the UN.

Ok for fun we'll play with your premise. Let's assume that everyting goes perfect over the next 12 months in Iraq. How does that affect Democrats? Somehow you and Yoni seem to think that the public will all of a sudden support the Iraq war. What you fail to acknowledge is that the one reason why people will never support our presence in Iraq is because they don't connect Iraq with the war on terror. Most people, and rightfully so, see Iraq was a mistake and want us out as soon as possible.

Mr. Peabody
11-25-2007, 04:53 PM
They may not actually want to lose, but like I said they are invested in defeat. A win in Iraq puts the democrat party in shame.



It's amazing how those on the right were able to reframe the goals of the war so that a Pyrrhic victory in Iraq means the war was the right thing to do. We were promised swift victory in the beginning and now, more than four years and billions of dollars later, any victory in Iraq is labeled as a victory for the Republican party. It's as if everyone on the right forgot the pretenses under which we went into war and are now counting any victory as proof that we did the right thing. It's bullshit. The war was a failure and the administration should not get a pat on the back for finally doing what was promised years ago. Likewise, a victory in Iraq should not be an albatross around the neck of the Democratic party. If anything, their true albatross should be the fact that they allowed the war to continue when they were put into power to bring it to a close.