45 points in 12 minutes

[itzsoweezee]

that vaunted phoenix D is at it again. :clap

[Xylus]

Very bad, very bad defense. But it's the 1st quarter against one of the fastest, high-powered offenses in the league. We'll see how the rest of the game goes.

[dirk4mvp]

But Suns fans say Suns have underrated but good D...

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

See sig.

[Xylus]

But Suns fans say Suns have underrated but good D...
It's true. :)

But I won't deny the Suns are inconsistent. They go through a few defensive lapses per game.

[picnroll]

It's true. :)

But I won't deny the Suns are inconsistent. They go through a few defensive lapses per game.

True. First quarter, second quarter, third quarter and fourth. That's it, unless of course there's an overtime.

[yeahone]

lol.....well there is no excuse for giving up 45 points a quarter...Golden state is ssuch a better team with their captain in the line up

[Xylus]

You guys should check out opponents' field goal percentage, or points per possession to get an idea of why I think the Suns play D. The Suns allow 44.4% FG per game (the Spurs allow 45.9%). The Suns allow 102.4 points per 100 possessions. The Spurs allow 103.3. The Suns are 4th best in blocks (the Spurs are 23rd). The Suns are 5th best in steals (the Spurs are 20th).

Do I think the Suns play better defense? No, of course not. But stats don't lie, and the Suns have played some good D so far this season. Inconsistently good D.

[FlukeDynasty]

You guys should check out opponents' field goal percentage, or points per possession to get an idea of why I think the Suns play D. The Suns allow 44.4% FG per game (the Spurs allow 45.9%). The Suns allow 102.4 points per 100 possessions. The Spurs allow 103.3. The Suns are 4th best in blocks (the Spurs are 23rd). The Suns are 5th best in steals (the Spurs are 20th).

Do I think the Suns play better defense? No, of course not. But stats don't lie, and the Suns have played some good D so far this season. Inconsistently good D.

The problem with your fluke statistics is that the Suns give up a whole lot more possessions so who cares.

[dirk4mvp]

You guys should check out opponents' field goal percentage, or points per possession to get an idea of why I think the Suns play D. The Suns allow 44.4% FG per game (the Spurs allow 45.9%). The Suns allow 102.4 points per 100 possessions. The Spurs allow 103.3. The Suns are 4th best in blocks (the Spurs are 23rd). The Suns are 5th best in steals (the Spurs are 20th).

Do I think the Suns play better defense? No, of course not. But stats don't lie, and the Suns have played some good D so far this season. Inconsistently good D.


45 points in 12 minutes is also a stat. Count that one in there.

Really, when's the last time the Spurs have gave up 45 in a quarter?

[Xylus]

Yeah, possessions per game is not a defensive statistic.

[Xylus]

45 points in 12 minutes is also a stat. Count that one in there.

Really, when's the last time the Spurs have gave up 45 in a quarter?
45 minutes in 12 minutes is an isolated instance, not a trend. The Pacers scored 46 points in a quarter several nights ago, but it doesn't make them an offensive juggernaut.

The Spurs haven't given up 45 in a quarter because they allow fewer possessions, and they're more consistent on D.

[BUMP]

45 POINTS! Who are they playing?

EDIT: oh nevermind, of course :lol :lol

[Xylus]

Fuckin' Warriors.

[JamStone]

Phoenix giving up 46 points in a quarter is horrible. It's the equivalent to the Spurs giving up back to back 30 point quarters to say a 4-9 team ... oh wait ...

[Xylus]

Time to feed Hellboy. Amare needs to have the ball on every possession.

[Xylus]

This reminds me of the Lakers game earlier in the season where LA raped us. The Suns are being raped tonight.

[JamStone]

Stephen Jackson is Chuck Norris

[TDMVPDPOY]

stephen jackson made you his biatch tonite sonfans....

i make love to pressure in every fuckn quarter

[resistanze]

Monta Ellis is tossing their salad! Geez.

[Walter Craparita]

This reminds me of the Lakers game earlier in the season where LA raped us. The Suns are being raped tonight.

With no defense you guys have shit chance of getting back into these games. I watched this game when Spurs were on commercial and it is like 10 sg/sf going at it nonstop lol.

[Stabbin' Cabin]

Not a good day to talk shit about other teams' defense Spurs fans :lol

[Walter Craparita]

Not a good day to talk shit about other teams' defense Spurs fans :lol

We were able to almost climb back from ownage because of our semi-non-shitty defense :read:

[ludda]

fun game to watch. hope the warriors make the playoffs again.

[Nashfan]

We were able to almost climb back from ownage because of our semi-non-shitty defense :read:

Your said team also allowed 50% shooting tonight, just like the Suns and the Mavs did. :rolleyes

[jman3000]

i dont get it... how can a phx fan be talking shit about a spurs defense that has been one of the most consistently good defenses in NBA history? a few early hiccups in a young season and all of a sudden we're on the same level of defense as phx?

:wtf:

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

My fantasy team with S-Jax and Nash is very happy after tonight.

[Nashfan]

i dont get it... how can a phx fan be talking shit about a spurs defense that has been one of the most consistently good defenses in NBA history? a few early hiccups in a young season and all of a sudden we're on the same level of defense as phx?

:wtf:

Well, we were rated fourth in defense behind the Spurs at third before tonight. Dallas was rated eighteenth. We probably blew it all to hell tonight with the horrible performance we had against the Warriors. Nice to know that the Spurs and the Mavs gave up 50% shooting also to their opponents tonight also though. :) All the biggies tonight lost except the Magic.

[ludda]

I dont see the suns being 4th throughout the season.

[Nashfan]

I dont see the suns being 4th throughout the season.

Not if they play like they did tonight. :lol They have been playing better defense of late but I am not going to hold my breathe.

[BillsCarnage]

Wait a minute... You all are mocking the Suns for giving up 45 in the 1st Q, yet that's the same Suns team that dropped 47 in the 1st (80 at half) on the same Kings team that just shut down the Spurs..

Oh that's right, this is Spurs talk :lmao

[Nashfan]

Wait a minute... You all are mocking the Suns for giving up 45 in the 1st Q, yet that's the same Suns team that dropped 47 in the 1st (80 at half) on the same Kings team that just shut down the Spurs..

Oh that's right, this is Spurs talk :lmao

Yeah, I was going to point that out but felt too embarrassed by our play tonight. :lol

[Matchman]

Wait a minute... You all are mocking the Suns for giving up 45 in the 1st Q, yet that's the same Suns team that dropped 47 in the 1st (80 at half) on the same Kings team that just shut down the Spurs..

Oh that's right, this is Spurs talk :lmao

It's not that hard to shut down the Spurs, but its harder to OUT-defend the Spurs. If they cant score they can still win by playing defense, and on most nights their defense will own every offense in this league.

See You Tomorrow Suns Fans!

GO ROCKETS~!

[jman3000]

match ups, match ups.

ron artest always gives us headaches... not to mention we had beno on a mission to prove something... it doesnt speak highly to their professionalism... but the game meant a lot more to the kings than it did the spurs.

it's the same reason dallas struggles against the warriors and we destroy them.

it's the same reason why we generally handle the suns but they can excel against most other teams in the league.

[BillsCarnage]

The NBA, more that any other sport, is about match-ups and creating mis-matches. GS is much like the Suns except more physical and actually try to play some D. They're probably the only team in the league that can out shoot the Suns and i wouldn't be surprised to see them win the season series 3-1 or 4-0. They're just a bad match for the Suns.

Much the same as they have been for Dallas.

But after the game when Baron and Nash had words I could have sworn Nash said, "Hey, come play for us next season when you opt out." ;-)

[SRJ]

i dont get it... how can a phx fan be talking shit about a spurs defense that has been one of the most consistently good defenses in NBA history? a few early hiccups in a young season and all of a sudden we're on the same level of defense as phx?


PHOENIX MATH

Less than 1/4 of the season played = incontrovertible proof

[exstatic]

Wait...was Phoenix playing their 5th game in 7 days? Thought not...

[RonMexico]

Wait, wait. The Suns scored 47 points in the first quarter on the Kings and you guys are making fun of 46 by Golden State. Isn't this the same Kings team that put up 30 and 34 in the 2nd and 3rd on the Spurs last night? The same Kings team that had one Beno Udrih go for 27?

And remind me... did the Wizards go for 110, with Caron Butler getting 32 on the Mavs or did I make that up?

I would have no problem if you guys made fun of the Suns tonight, but both of your teams lost by double digits. Both Suns and Warriors play at a fast pace and isn't this the Golden State team that put up over 120 on the Mavs in the playoffs fairly easily last year?

I'm still pissed the Suns played like pussies, got screwed on pick-n-rolls, gave up 31 assists to the Warriors and had approximately 300 unforced turnovers, but don't try to bring up a discussion about defense because we all know that neither team played any. At one point, in the 4th, the Suns had 28 rebounds and G-State had 25... that tells you a little bit about how well each team was shooting and therefore, the Suns' turnovers doomed them from getting in a rhythm on either end of the court.

[Stargazer]

The problem with your fluke statistics is that the Suns give up a whole lot more possessions so who cares.

I can't tell if this is supposed to be a joke or not. There are more overall possessions in a typical Suns game, yes, because the Suns play faster. But both teams in a basketball game always have essentially the same number of possessions. That's why the true measure of a defense is on a per possession basis, not per game basis.

One thing no one has commented on about the GS game -- the Suns, ironically, are in many ways more vulnerable to a run-and-gun offense than any other team, because they are the only team in the league that never gets to see it (because they never play themselves). Even as a Suns fan, I was sort of taken aback by the GS game, because I'm simply not used to ever seeing any opposing team push the ball hard and shoot early in the clock. I kept thinking, "This must be what it's like for other teams that play the Suns." I'm guessing there may be a similar effect for the Suns players.

[da_suns_fan__]

The problem with your fluke statistics is that the Suns give up a whole lot more possessions so who cares.


How fucking stupid can you be?

How do you "give up a possession"? I guess the Suns should score so quickly, because every time the other team gets the ball back, theyre "giving up" a possession.

All Teams should attempt to use every second of the shot clock to keep the number of possessions they "give up" down.

What a tool.

[Walter Craparita]

My point was that even if the Spurs are getting raped any given night you can never count them out because their defense will weather the storm and get them back in the fight. We are not just going to rely on the hope that the other team's shooting will go cold.

When I watch a team like the Suns, when I watch Nash not not playing defense..but just standing! haha That's got to be annoying if you are cheering for them I would think. I never got the feeling they would get back into that game, especially against a team like GS.

Tonight for the Spurs, Pop seemed like he gave up late in the 3rd but since our DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP bench starting decrowning the Kings, we almost got back into that game.

Spurs giving away a future HOF PG because we needed more competition wasn't the smartest move, but gotta do what you gotta do. :toast

[PoleSmoking]

I think you're all missing the point here. All 3 of the West's best teams lost last night. All of them. All of them by pretty big margins. But that doesn't make any of them crappy teams. 45 points in one quarter against the Warriors, and allowing 51%+ shooting is obviously not good. Giving up 30 points or more in two quarters, and allowing 55%+ shooting against the Kings isn't the best defense in the world, obviously. And giving up 38 points in a quarter, and allowing 50%+ shooting to the Wizards is obviously not very good defense either. But it's one game only. One game does not define any of these teams. All of these teams have proven that they will win far more often than they lose. All of these teams usually play much better defense. And every team has a few bad games every year. All of them. No team has ever won 82 games. In defense of the defense of the Mavs, Suns & Spurs, it must be admitted that the Wizards, Warriors & Kings have been known to score a few points once in a while. But what's really important is how each of these teams respond to an embarrassment like last night. Do they bounce back, or go on a slide (or continue to slide, like Mavs)? My guess is that all of these teams will have a game or two like this in 2007-2008, but that all of them will win 50+ and see each other in the playoffs. So enough shit talking already.

[Findog]

Eh, the Suns can get away with crap defense against most teams because nobody is as efficient as they are on offense. They increase the # of possessions per game and most teams can't keep up. I don't care what stats say 15 games into this seaon, I'm talking over the last three years with Nash.

The Mavs don't have that luxury. As they are constructed, they have to play good defense to win. We suck right now.

[PoleSmoking]

My point was that even if the Spurs are getting raped any given night you can never count them out because their defense will weather the storm and get them back in the fight. We are not just going to rely on the hope that the other team's shooting will go cold.

When I watch a team like the Suns, when I watch Nash not not playing defense..but just standing! haha That's got to be annoying if you are cheering for them I would think. I never got the feeling they would get back into that game, especially against a team like GS.

Tonight for the Spurs, Pop seemed like he gave up late in the 3rd but since our DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP bench starting decrowning the Kings, we almost got back into that game.

Spurs giving away a future HOF PG because we needed more competition wasn't the smartest move, but gotta do what you gotta do. :toast

Well good for you. I watched that Suns-Warriors game & I sure had a different feeling about the game. I thought the Suns looked like they were hanging in with them all game long. I didn't think it was over until about 1 minute left. In fact, I think that very few teams could have even stayed that close to Golden State the way they were shooting. I mean, it wasn't all dunks and layups and uncontested shots all day for the Warriors. They were making improbable & contested 3-pointers all night as well. Those jokers shot 46.4% (13-28) on threes! But still, each time the Warriors scored a clutch shot, the Suns answered right back.

If you look at the box score, you'll see that it was really just that 45 point 1st quarter bulge that won them the game, and the Suns played pretty even with them for the rest of the night. Really, I think it was just an off night for Nash (8 turnovers) and Marion (5-14 shooting), and a golden night for pretty much everyone on the Golden State roster. Just too many turnovers more than anything else, but they were still answering back every bucket until the very end. In fact, they even had their best defensive quarter of the game in the 4th (26 opp points). Not a good defensive game at all ... but not a bad offensive game for the Warriors either.

[PoleSmoking]

It's not that hard to shut down the Spurs, but its harder to OUT-defend the Spurs. If they cant score they can still win by playing defense, and on most nights their defense will own every offense in this league.

See You Tomorrow Suns Fans!

GO ROCKETS~!

Hey, guess what? Even if you hold your opponent to 0 points, you still don't win unless you make a basket. So technically, it's impossible to actually win on defense alone. I can say with supreme confidence that the Spurs have never won a game on defense alone, no matter how good it is.

[PoleSmoking]

I can't tell if this is supposed to be a joke or not. There are more overall possessions in a typical Suns game, yes, because the Suns play faster. But both teams in a basketball game always have essentially the same number of possessions. That's why the true measure of a defense is on a per possession basis, not per game basis.

One thing no one has commented on about the GS game -- the Suns, ironically, are in many ways more vulnerable to a run-and-gun offense than any other team, because they are the only team in the league that never gets to see it (because they never play themselves). Even as a Suns fan, I was sort of taken aback by the GS game, because I'm simply not used to ever seeing any opposing team push the ball hard and shoot early in the clock. I kept thinking, "This must be what it's like for other teams that play the Suns." I'm guessing there may be a similar effect for the Suns players.

I agree with much of what you're saying, but dude ... the Suns play themselves more than any other team in the league. They practice against themselves.

[Stargazer]

I agree with much of what you're saying, but dude ... the Suns play themselves more than any other team in the league. They practice against themselves.

That's a good point, but I'm not sure practices are really the same. For one thing, the Suns practice defense (I assume) by trying to copy the half-court offenses they always see in other teams. And then Suns' practices tend to be mostly walk-through stuff. D'Antoni's philosophy is to save it for the games.

[Stargazer]

My point was that even if the Spurs are getting raped any given night you can never count them out because their defense will weather the storm and get them back in the fight. We are not just going to rely on the hope that the other team's shooting will go cold.

When I watch a team like the Suns, when I watch Nash not not playing defense..but just standing! haha That's got to be annoying if you are cheering for them I would think. I never got the feeling they would get back into that game, especially against a team like GS.

Tonight for the Spurs, Pop seemed like he gave up late in the 3rd but since our DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP bench starting decrowning the Kings, we almost got back into that game.

Spurs giving away a future HOF PG because we needed more competition wasn't the smartest move, but gotta do what you gotta do. :toast

This may just be the difference in expectations between watching an offensive team and watching a defensive team. The Suns were in the game until the final minute or two, because they are always capable of a 10-0 run at any point. I understand that defense can keep a team in a game until the offense comes around, but it's also true that offense can keep a team in a game until the defense comes around.

[Xylus]

I think you're all missing the point here. All 3 of the West's best teams lost last night. All of them. All of them by pretty big margins. But that doesn't make any of them crappy teams. 45 points in one quarter against the Warriors, and allowing 51%+ shooting is obviously not good. Giving up 30 points or more in two quarters, and allowing 55%+ shooting against the Kings isn't the best defense in the world, obviously. And giving up 38 points in a quarter, and allowing 50%+ shooting to the Wizards is obviously not very good defense either. But it's one game only. One game does not define any of these teams. All of these teams have proven that they will win far more often than they lose. All of these teams usually play much better defense. And every team has a few bad games every year. All of them. No team has ever won 82 games. In defense of the defense of the Mavs, Suns & Spurs, it must be admitted that the Wizards, Warriors & Kings have been known to score a few points once in a while. But what's really important is how each of these teams respond to an embarrassment like last night. Do they bounce back, or go on a slide (or continue to slide, like Mavs)? My guess is that all of these teams will have a game or two like this in 2007-2008, but that all of them will win 50+ and see each other in the playoffs. So enough shit talking already.
:clap

[RonMexico]

I think you're all missing the point here. All 3 of the West's best teams lost last night. All of them. All of them by pretty big margins. But that doesn't make any of them crappy teams. 45 points in one quarter against the Warriors, and allowing 51%+ shooting is obviously not good. Giving up 30 points or more in two quarters, and allowing 55%+ shooting against the Kings isn't the best defense in the world, obviously. And giving up 38 points in a quarter, and allowing 50%+ shooting to the Wizards is obviously not very good defense either. But it's one game only. One game does not define any of these teams. All of these teams have proven that they will win far more often than they lose. All of these teams usually play much better defense. And every team has a few bad games every year. All of them. No team has ever won 82 games. In defense of the defense of the Mavs, Suns & Spurs, it must be admitted that the Wizards, Warriors & Kings have been known to score a few points once in a while. But what's really important is how each of these teams respond to an embarrassment like last night. Do they bounce back, or go on a slide (or continue to slide, like Mavs)? My guess is that all of these teams will have a game or two like this in 2007-2008, but that all of them will win 50+ and see each other in the playoffs. So enough shit talking already.

Awesome.

The irony of this thread was that it didn't seem like Spurs fans even realized their great defense sputtered last night.

Perhaps because it was at the hands of Beno, they chose not to acknowledge it for fear of destroying the universe.

[PoleSmoking]

That's a good point, but I'm not sure practices are really the same. For one thing, the Suns practice defense (I assume) by trying to copy the half-court offenses they always see in other teams. And then Suns' practices tend to be mostly walk-through stuff. D'Antoni's philosophy is to save it for the games.

Good point. It's the same with every team's practice, probably. Except that I know for a fact that Suns' practices are legendarily short and fast-paced. They seem to practice offense mostly, and figure that the burden of working out defensive schemes are on the other team. And it works for most of the 82 games. Exception Warriors games, apparently. But I don't think the explanation for last night against the Warriors was a lack of exposure to the fast-break style. It was turnovers and bad decisions by Nash & Marion mostly, but defensive rotation was a big problem for the whole team I guess. Maybe they need to stop focusing on offense during practice and work on defense. I mean, really, they should be able to take offense for granted at this point. But, hey, it's early in the season. All the good teams (Suns included) are still good. A lot of teams are still trying to find their preferred niche and style.

[PoleSmoking]

Awesome.

The irony of this thread was that it didn't seem like Spurs fans even realized their great defense sputtered last night.

Perhaps because it was at the hands of Beno, they chose not to acknowledge it for fear of destroying the universe.

Yeah, it is kinda interesting that it was the Spurs (of the 3 W. Powers) that gave up the 55% shooting. Conventional wisdom would hang that stat on the Suns, probably. I mean, if someone asked me: Mavs, Suns & Spurs all lost last night; which one gave up the highest opponent fg%? probably my last choice would have been Spurs for sure. Funny how these quirky fluke games go down, eh?

But that's what last night was, in fact. A quirky coincidence of fluke games for the Western conference powers. Probably won't see an alignment of misfortune like that for another 10 years. A lot of people lost a lot of money in Vegas last night, for sure.

[dubsball]

Hey guys I'm new here and this is my first post! This is an amazing forum, very well put together. Me and a couple of my buddies just started a Warriors blog, check out the link in my signature.

And as far as the 45 in the 1st quarter, did you guys ever take a minute to think that maybe the Warriors are just hot again? I mean we cannot handle the Spurs, but other than you guys, and maybe the Jazz, we can handle anyone when we have Baron AND Jack! (You guys know about Jack!) 1-6 without him, 5-1 with him, and I think we're going to continue to be hot and start to get some recognition soon.

Anyways, look forward to chatting with you guys. Stay up.

[Stargazer]

Good point. It's the same with every team's practice, probably. Except that I know for a fact that Suns' practices are legendarily short and fast-paced. They seem to practice offense mostly, and figure that the burden of working out defensive schemes are on the other team. And it works for most of the 82 games. Exception Warriors games, apparently. But I don't think the explanation for last night against the Warriors was a lack of exposure to the fast-break style. It was turnovers and bad decisions by Nash & Marion mostly, but defensive rotation was a big problem for the whole team I guess. Maybe they need to stop focusing on offense during practice and work on defense. I mean, really, they should be able to take offense for granted at this point. But, hey, it's early in the season. All the good teams (Suns included) are still good. A lot of teams are still trying to find their preferred niche and style.

I've notice the Suns have adopted a new defensive strategy this year (at least I think it's new; I didn't notice it last year). On almost every possession, they double team the ball the second it gets into the post, and then scramble like mad trying to rotate to cover when the pass comes out. All teams to this, but the Suns seem to do it constantly now. It's almost as if the team has given up on being able to defend straight up, and is hoping to perfect a new strategy that capitalizes on their speed. The result seems to be more steals and turnovers, but also a lot more open layups and looks when the rotation breaks down. I'm not sure yet what I think of it.

[anakha]

I've notice the Suns have adopted a new defensive strategy this year (at least I think it's new; I didn't notice it last year). On almost every possession, they double team the ball the second it gets into the post, and then scramble like mad trying to rotate to cover when the pass comes out. All teams to this, but the Suns seem to do it constantly now. It's almost as if the team has given up on being able to defend straight up, and is hoping to perfect a new strategy that capitalizes on their speed. The result seems to be more steals and turnovers, but also a lot more open layups and looks when the rotation breaks down. I'm not sure yet what I think of it.

Doesn't that put a lot of pressure on the team athletically? Especially considering that D'Antoni still seems to have a problem with extending his rotation...

[phyzik]

I've notice the Suns have adopted a new defensive strategy this year (at least I think it's new; I didn't notice it last year). On almost every possession, they double team the ball the second it gets into the post, and then scramble like mad trying to rotate to cover when the pass comes out. All teams to this, but the Suns seem to do it constantly now. It's almost as if the team has given up on being able to defend straight up, and is hoping to perfect a new strategy that capitalizes on their speed. The result seems to be more steals and turnovers, but also a lot more open layups and looks when the rotation breaks down. I'm not sure yet what I think of it.

now that you mention it, I have noticed that. Its going to be interesting to see how that pans out. I dont see it working for the suns. I mean, despite what people like to think, they are one of the older rosters in this league. I'd be curious to see how it would work with a younger team like Seattle or Chicago, or even Goldenstate just because of their lineup.