Disgusting Image *NSFW*

[timvp]

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I know I made excuses earlier in the year for the Spurs' poor showing in the opponent's field goal percentage category, but this is getting ridiculous. 26th in the league? Behind teams who don't even play defense such as the Sonics and the Knicks?

The Spurs have always been near the top of the league in this category and to a Spurs fan, it's arguably the most important stat year in and year out. 26th after one game is unacceptable. 26th after 15 games is unimaginable.

I don't overly care about winning and losing at this point of the season but the defense should never be this bad. I'd much rather the Spurs be 8-7 near the top of the league in this category than to be 12-3 and near the bottom of the league. All that winning how the Spurs are winning is doing is creating bad habits.

:madrun

[degenerate_gambler]

If this were Jan or Feb, I'd be concerned.

The point diff is a more telling stat.

They'll lock down when they're ready which will probably be after Pop throws the annual 'soft' label out. This team is too smart and too experienced not to realize what makes a champ.

[MagnusKrauss]

this just goes to show what kind of team we are supposed to be.

we don't care about the win-loss, we don't care about power rankings, we don't care about the division standings, we only care about our championship-winning defense.

and right now, our defense sucks the sweat off a dead man's balls.

but I'm pretty sure now that we lost one to the Kings, of all teams, it will dawn on the Spurs that maybe winning the way they've been winning is not the way to go. And I'm sure Pop is making sure that the point comes across to the players.

[Southwest Texas Fan]

Timvp I remember last year, though not as bad, the team seemed to be winning using offense instead of defense and some of the same issues were also brought up. Do you think that the trend continues as last year and sometime around Feb March things will eventually change or do you believe this might be a real problem?

[some_user86]

Pop already started the defense siren last night.

See: http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82328

[SAGambler]

Yet they are 3rd in PPG allowed and 2nd in +/- differential. I wouldn't get too upset just yet.

[JamStone]

Would you rather the Spurs be say #6 in the statistical ranking and be 3-9 in the win-loss column? Chillax. Your team is 12-3.

[JamStone]

By the way, I can't believe I just used the word "chillax."

[MoSpur]

26th in the league is pretty bad. Actually its really bad. The Spurs are usually top five if not top three in this category. Thank God its still early in the season.

[whottt]

So who do you blame for this atrocity?



And to think...we haven't even played the Suns yet.

[whottt]

What makes it even more strange is that Bruce Bowen is having one of the strongest starts to his career ever...and Brent Barry is actually trying on D...so where does the blame lie?

[SAGambler]

What makes it even more strange is that Bruce Bowen is having one of the strongest starts to his career ever...and Brent Barry is actually trying on D...so where does the blame lie?

There aren't enough Bruce Bowens to go around on D.

[jman3000]

it seemed as though it was the 2nd line of defense that was crumbling... everytime a player would drive on us, tim was a bit late and the shot was barely contested. at one point i swear they had about 5 layups in a row.

[BacktoBasics]

When you're the defending champs and in the middle of a dynasty teams have a tendency to step it up against you.

[boutons_]

"where does the blame lie?"

Apart from Francisco, our bigs don't seem very committed to shutting down Spurs' paint or closing out short jumper shooters. As Tim goes, so go the Spurs, on both ends.

The perim defenders don't seem to be staying close to their guy, permitting open jumpers.

Offense is fun, defense is hard, it's November.

[SouthernFried]

Finley has alway been terrible on D. I mean, absolutely horrible. I love the guy, but...it is what it is.

And nobody has ever said Parker is a defensive stopper.

Manu and Bruce have both been playing good D so far. Timmy seems to be way down on that. Fab seems to be doing ok.

Sooo...

Finley, Tony and Tim probably all need to step it up some on D. We all know Timmy can do that. Finley can't. And Tony...??

Start Brent. He's earned it...imho.

[timvp]

Timvp I remember last year, though not as bad, the team seemed to be winning using offense instead of defense and some of the same issues were also brought up. Do you think that the trend continues as last year and sometime around Feb March things will eventually change or do you believe this might be a real problem?I'm hopeful it's not a real problem. If there is one coach who can make a team flip the switch and start playing defense -- it's Pop.

But unless the Spurs turn it around on their own soon, they might need some losses to get their attention.



What makes it even more strange is that Bruce Bowen is having one of the strongest starts to his career ever...and Brent Barry is actually trying on D...so where does the blame lie?I was just trying to figure that out. The odd part is Bowen, Ginobili, Parker, Barry and even Finley are all playing right around their normal level of regular season defense. Bowen has actually been ahead of schedule this season.

But I think I found the answer. While the Spurs allow teams to shot only 33% on three-pointers, they allow teams to shoot 49.7% on two pointers. 49.7%. I haven't done the math but that might be the worst in the league.

When teams shoot that well on two-pointers, the problem usually lies in the middle of the defense. Duncan has been in full regular season mode defensively (in other words, not that good) but that has been compounded by the lack of defense the Spurs are getting out of the other big. Oberto, Elson, Bonner ... none of those guys have done much defensively so far this year. Oberto has been decent at times but sometimes he's loafs on that end of the court. Bonner has been horrible defensively and Elson has oscillated between horrible and very bad.

Also, not to be forgotten is the fact that Horry hasn't played yet. Even at 55 years old, Horry is by far the second best bigman defender on this team. By far. Without him and without dominant postseason defense out of Duncan, the middle of the Spurs defense is beyond weak. The Spurs are 24th in the league in blocked shots at 4.26 per game. That's probably one of the lowest marks in Spurs history. Duncan is averaging a career-low in blocks (1.9) and the player second on the team in blocks per game is Ian Mahinmi :depressed

Elson for being as tall and athletic as he is, is averaging a pathetic .47 blocks per game. Fabricio Oberto is averaging as many blocks as Tony Parker (.2).

The problem is the bigs. Get well soon, Horry. And get well soon to whatever has robbed Elson of his shotblocking ability.

[MoSpur]

Where's Rasho when you need him. I honestly think Tim needs to step up his defense, but its not all on him. Fabricio is doing a good job boards and getting layups, but I don't think anyone fears him when they get in the paint. The team as a whole needs to step up Whott. I don't think you can blame one person for the team's "soft" defense.

[timvp]

Apart from Francisco, our bigs don't seem very committed to shutting down Spurs' paint or closing out short jumper shooters.The only thing Francisco has been committed to this season is fumbling passes.

[MoSpur]

The only thing Francisco has been committed to this season is fumbling passes.

He is looking more like Nazr Mohammed.

[LEN BIAS 4EVER]

Well to improve the situation it's time for Pop to free Ime Udoka.

Ime hit 40% from 3 last season and with consistant minutes playing along Duncan should be able to match that mark. Udoka can also play some serious D and should be getting more run than he is now.

I also hate to say it but I think Elson needs to play a little more as well. He helps on the boards and makes it harder for opponents to get easy putbacks when he is out there.

As i see it, the minutes would have to come from Finley and Bonner and give Elson 6 more minutes a game and Udoka a solid rotation spot and 10 more minutes a game. Finley just isn't producing at a high enough level to warrant that much playing time and Bonner is getting too many minutes for what he contibutes on D and the boards.

[Streakyshooter08]

That is really interesting. I also believe that the problem is interior defense. I really hope this is a thing that can be turned around during the season.

I only thing i "like" about this is, that the Spurs still win. If they manage to go back to their usual defense along with their good offense they are tough to beat.

[jman3000]

robert horry was usually good for a block or 2 ... and sometimes even more than that in his occasional game where he plays 10 years younger.

looks like that might be the reason there.

[timvp]

Yet they are 3rd in PPG allowed.Opponent's PPG is a deceiving stat because the Spurs play at a slower pace than anyone and the Spurs don't foul. With those two traits combined, the Spurs have to be near the top of the league in opponent's PPG.

[[email protected]]

26th in the league is pretty bad. Actually its really bad. The Spurs are usually top five if not top three in this category. Thank God its still early in the season. That is true.Wait for december it will be different basketball category.GO Spurs Go.

[Bruno]

FG% allowed :
This year after 15 games : 0.466
Last year after 15 games : 0.454

Now take aside the last two games against Seattle and Sacramento.
FG% alllowed this year after 13 games : 0.454

I'm not saying that this year stat should be considered as a fluke. However, you had to be careful before drawing big conclusions from that. The reason for this high FG% allowed could just be Spurs being tired/lazy in the last couple of games and Spurs' defense starting slow.

Wake me up in one month. :sleep

[MoSpur]

Good lookup Bruno. I know the Spurs usually start off slow, but this team is not new like years in the past. Its the same as last year.

[timvp]

FG% allowed :
This year after 15 games : 0.466
Last year after 15 games : 0.454

Now take aside the last two games against Seattle and Sacramento.
FG% alllowed this year after 13 games : 0.454

I'm not saying that this year stat should be considered as a fluke. However, you had to be careful before drawing big conclusions from that. The reason for this high FG% allowed could just be Spurs being tired/lazy in the last couple of games and Spurs' defense starting slow.

Wake me up in one month. :sleepLast year, teams were still shooting 0.455 as of December 28th. So you may want to be wake up in two months. :)

Seriously though, I don't think it's as simple as pointing to last year and saying the Spurs are on the same pace. Last year the Spurs had the built in excuses that they were getting adjusted to the new centers and Ginobili was banged up early. This year everyone is back and the big three are each healthy.

Most likely the Spurs will turn it around like they always do. Weirdly enough, the worst case scenario is the Spurs just keep winning at their current pace and don't learn how to win with their defense until the playoffs come around ... and it's too late.

If the Spurs continue to struggle with their defense, the best thing may be for the Spurs to drop a few games until Pop has their ear again.

[Bruno]

And get well soon to whatever has robbed Elson of his shotblocking ability.

Spurs with Elson : 43.6 eFg% allowed
Spurs without Elson : 52.4 eFG% allowed

[timvp]

Spurs with Elson : 43.6 eFg% allowed
Spurs without Elson : 52.4 eFG% allowed

Sample size.

Unless you want to put stock in:

Points Per 100 Possessions
With Bonner on the court: 99.6
With Bonner off the court: 104.1

[Bruno]

If you want a reason why Spurs have a low start and only by looking at numbers, the most likely only by looking at numbers is Duncan being lazy.

From 2003 to 2007 (5 years), Spurs have always allowed a lower FG% with Duncan on the floor than without him (about 3% lower).
This year Spurs are 3% worst with Duncan than without him.

[LEN BIAS 4EVER]

Thank you Bruno. I thought Elson was useful.

The difference between him and Bonner on the boards is big. Bonner simply is eaten up on the boards.

Bonner even without regular minutes can be called upon out of the blue to hit a 3, he is that good a shooter.

I still say FREE IME UDOKA....

[some_user86]

If you want a reason why Spurs have a low start and only by looking at numbers, the most likely only by looking at numbers is Duncan being lazy.

From 2003 to 2007 (5 years), Spurs have always allowed a lower FG% with Duncan on the floor than without him (about 3% lower).
This year Spurs are 3% worst with Duncan than without him.

:tu

This is probably the laziest attitude I've seen of him as a Spur.

[timvp]

Thank you Brunoi. I thought Elson was making a difference.

The difference between him and Bonner on the boards is big.True. But in Bonner's favor.

With Elson on the floor, the Spurs get offensive rebounds 21.2% of the time. With him off the floor, 29.7% of the time. Defensive rebounds more of the same. 72.1% when he's on the floor and 75.3% when he's off the floor.

Bonner, when he's on the court, doesn't hurt the rebounding numbers at all.

[Bruno]

Sample size.

Unless you want to put stock in:

Spurs allowing .466 FG%

Fixed.

More seriously :
I'm not saying that Elson is a good defender but that if you want to know why Spurs allow a high FG%, you can't blame it on Elson because when he is on the floor Spurs allow a very low FG% .

[E20]

Nice going Timvp, I was about be thrown out of school for that fucking hideous image.

[Dex]

Somewhere, allas fans are pleasuring themselves to this post.

[bdubya]

My head is still spinning from seeing Boston at #1. I haven't watched them much, but I don't exactly think of them as a defense-first squad.

And how the hell Detroit's current "Red Carpet" paint defense gets them to #5 is beyond me.

As for the Spurs, maybe you guys are just taking away opponents' bad shots?

[Dex]

My head is still spinning from seeing Boston at #1. I haven't watched them much, but I don't exactly think of them as a defense-first squad.

And how the hell Detroit's current "Red Carpet" paint defense gets them to #5 is beyond me.

As for the Spurs, maybe you guys are just taking away opponents' bad shots?

I think it's just been an increased dependence upon our offense to win games.

Despite the defensive 'woes', the Spurs are still 2nd in the league in Point Differential at +8.00, primarily because this club is better at scoring the ball than years past and is averaging just over a 100 a game.

However, nights like last night show that the offense isn't always going to be there. If the Spurs were playing Spurs Defense, that game would've still been there for the taking. Instead, every time we made a push they just pushed right back, and we ended up fighting out of a hole for the last quarter and a half.

[1Parker1]

Bonner's defense is non-existent. Elson doesn't get playing time so he can't be in there to block and defend the paint, and Oberto is really too short to really deter anyone from roaming into the lane. Add to it, Parker's defense has been slow, Ginobili is gambling way too much on steals, and Finley is an average defender, I don't think these things help the Spurs cause. Not to mention their team defense and help defense has been bad....especially evident in the Dallas game.

[bdictjames]

One word: Bonner sucks.

[1Parker1]

Oh and small ball does not help their defense!

[bdubya]

I think it's just been an increased dependence upon our offense to win games.

The Flip Saunders School of Basketball. Be afraid..be very afraid.

[2centsworth]

Tim needs to be more involved. GET HIM THE BALL! Big men play D when they are involved in the O.

4 Down BABY.

[bdictjames]

Tim needs to be more involved. GET HIM THE BALL! Big men play D when they are involved in the O.

4 Down BABY.
I agree, Im wondering the same thing. I think they'd do that in the playoffs more.

Can you please explain what 4 down is? When all four other players are spread on the three point line?

[whottt]

I'm hopeful it's not a real problem. If there is one coach who can make a team flip the switch and start playing defense -- it's Pop.

But unless the Spurs turn it around on their own soon, they might need some losses to get their attention.


I was just trying to figure that out. The odd part is Bowen, Ginobili, Parker, Barry and even Finley are all playing right around their normal level of regular season defense. Bowen has actually been ahead of schedule this season.

But I think I found the answer. While the Spurs allow teams to shot only 33% on three-pointers, they allow teams to shoot 49.7% on two pointers. 49.7%. I haven't done the math but that might be the worst in the league.

When teams shoot that well on two-pointers, the problem usually lies in the middle of the defense. Duncan has been in full regular season mode defensively (in other words, not that good) but that has been compounded by the lack of defense the Spurs are getting out of the other big. Oberto, Elson, Bonner ... none of those guys have done much defensively so far this year. Oberto has been decent at times but sometimes he's loafs on that end of the court. Bonner has been horrible defensively and Elson has oscillated between horrible and very bad.

Also, not to be forgotten is the fact that Horry hasn't played yet. Even at 55 years old, Horry is by far the second best bigman defender on this team. By far. Without him and without dominant postseason defense out of Duncan, the middle of the Spurs defense is beyond weak. The Spurs are 24th in the league in blocked shots at 4.26 per game. That's probably one of the lowest marks in Spurs history. Duncan is averaging a career-low in blocks (1.9) and the player second on the team in blocks per game is Ian Mahinmi :depressed

Elson for being as tall and athletic as he is, is averaging a pathetic .47 blocks per game. Fabricio Oberto is averaging as many blocks as Tony Parker (.2).

The problem is the bigs. Get well soon, Horry. And get well soon to whatever has robbed Elson of his shotblocking ability.



I was about to say...so in summary...we miss Robert Horry.

Which in a way verfies a long held theory I have had...that Robert Horry is the reason this team was able to overcome the loss of David Robinson without much of a loss defensively. It's not to say that Horry is the same caliber of player that David Robinson was...but by the end of David Robinson's career...David Robinson was, as Pop described it...a role player to the Nth degree...and that's exactly what Horry has been for virtually his entire career. A HOF Caliber role player...to the nth degree. Now Drob did stuff on the offensive end...but IMO, Manu was the guy who picked up the slack there....but the combination of those two are what offset the loss of the Admiral. Horry being the one that offset the major loss of Drob's defensive prowess...not a really a surprise, since the main reason Pop and Duncan wanted Rob on this team was because he was best Duncan defender in the NBA(by their own words).


This has huge ramifications beyond this season should Horry retire....while Pop is arguably a genius level defensive mind...he's not capable of turning just anyone into a role player to the nth degree...and I don't see anyone in the pipeline capable of filling that void. Ironically...the guy that comes closest to having the talent set to pull it off...is Elson, but he doesn't have the mind for it....Oberto OTOH, has the mind, but not the physical talent...and there's not really a way we can have both of them on the floor at the same time with Duncan.



Better win it all this season...could be a while before we get another shot.

[2centsworth]

I agree, Im wondering the same thing. I think they'd do that in the playoffs more.

Can you please explain what 4 down is? When all four other players are spread on the three point line?
give it to Tim and get out of his way.

[E20]

I agree, Im wondering the same thing. I think they'd do that in the playoffs more.

Can you please explain what 4 down is? When all four other players are spread on the three point line?
4 Down, the 4 stands for PF aka Timmy. Basically you throw the ball down in the paint to the PF and let him do his thang. I think Spurs also have 5 down as well.

[timvp]

Ironically...the guy that comes closest to having the talent set to pull it off...is Elson.As a card carrying Elson supporter, how do you rate Elson's play as of late?

Thanks in advance.

[ShoogarBear]

This is even more data in support of the greatness of Beno.

[whottt]

As a card carrying Elson supporter, how do you rate Elson's play as of late?

Thanks in advance.

Read my edit....


Elson doesn't have the mind to do it....he's definitely got the talent though.


Ian is too green...I imagine Splitter will be as well...and no way can Bonner do it...


So basically even if Splitter or Ian is capable of growing into that role, you are looking at a year learning curve..and you are looking at a 33-34 year old Duncan and a 32 year old Manu by that time.


So this could concievably be the last season we are contenders for a title in the Duncan era....unless Pop has a rabbit in his hat somewhere, or Horry can turn the clock back....


When is Udonis a FA?

[LEN BIAS 4EVER]

Bonner, when he's on the court, doesn't hurt the rebounding numbers at all.

Sure he does. He is too slow to be a good rebounder. Elson is averaging 5 boards a game vs Bonner's 3.5 in about equal time. Bonner is grabbing about 17% of defensive rebounds vs Elson's 23%. Offense doesn't seem to be a problem, we don't need Bonner out there 17-18 minutes a night or Finley shooting 35%. I rather have more Elson/Udoka than Bonner/Finley, at least until the playoffs start. Then it's Horry time :elephant

[ploto]

Manu learned to take those risks when he had Tim and Dave and then Tim and Rasho behind him. He is taking the same risks he always has just without the same back-up behind him.

It is very obvious that the interior defense is not good.

[ShoogarBear]

Manu learned to take those risks when he had Tim and Dave and then Tim and Rasho behind him. He is taking the same risks he always has just without the same back-up behind him.

It is very obvious that the interior defense is not good.:rolleyes :rolleyes

Conveniently forgot about last year.

And the Spurs never won a championship playing Rasho significant minutes.

[whottt]

And Rasho didn't even get off the bench during the 05 title run



Fixed

[hsxvvd]

What makes it even more strange is that Bruce Bowen is having one of the strongest starts to his career ever...and Brent Barry is actually trying on D...so where does the blame lie?

Duncan is playing weak. Rebounds down, Blocks down.

Opponents FG% up.

[ShoogarBear]

Can I see you in my office?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

After the Sonics game I actually looked up this statistic and laughed my ass off. Then we drop even further after the Kings game. Pretty bleak if we keep this up.

[whottt]

:lol
actually something like like happened earlier this year... so I am very careful these days, and I stay out of the Troll forum while at work. Somehow, someway they are watching me...


You can pretty much bank on the fact that any thread started by timvp will be suitable for work...at least before the regs get involved.


I'm trying to work some Pat Boone smack into this but I just can't make the full connection right now...

[Extra Stout]

Yet they are 3rd in PPG allowed and 2nd in +/- differential. I wouldn't get too upset just yet.
Fool's gold. If opponents are routinely shooting 47%, a shooting slump by one or two Spurs can snowball into a 2-8 stretch.

[RC's Boss]

yeah, the only reason I finally decided to click on it at work... after 8 hours... was that it was timvp that started it. I took the chance that it wouldn't really be NSFW...

If someone else started it, especially the Troll Forum posters, I wouldn't have taken the chance at work!
You mean the Sequ threads aren't safe? How about my posts w/ the badonkadonk pics :lol ... Anyway, while Bonner may hustle on the rebounding end, his arms are wayyyy to short to ever become a significant defender. I hate to say it, but if we met PHX in the playoffs like this, we would lose b/c we would not be able to outscore them! I believe it was Whott that said it... This may indeed be the last year unless someone is signed (don't know if they could), or someone was traded for a Biedrins-type player. Hey is that Williams dude from Jersey that got busted for toking @Boston College a 2nd rounder? Can't remember, but if so.... I've watched him several times on league pass. The kid may like the green pastures (so do I :smokin ), but his game is actually pretty good. Maybe Okafor will take a mid-level salary so he can win (just dreaming).