Greatest International player of all Time?

[yeahone]

Dirk Reigning League MVP...Hakeem...2 time NBA Champion, Steve Nash, Double League MVP, Manu 3 times NBA Champions, Tony parker 3 times nba Champion and finals mvp...how would you rank these players based on their abilites and impact on their team?

[duncan228]

My only question was how to rank Manu and Parker.
Manu was a close choice for co-MVP in '05, the vote was 6-4 for Duncan.
Hardware wise, Parker is a Finals MVP above all of them.
So I'd go like this:

Parker
Manu
Hakeem
Nash
Dirk

But I could switch Parker and Manu and be happy too.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

You need to specify a little more bro. I mean, if we're talking international titles, Manu has so many more than any of those that its not even close. On the other hand, no one in their right mind would choose any of those over Hakeem if we're talking more talented player of them all. Plus, some people seem to think Duncan is an international player, so...

SO, are we talking best international player based on NBA accomplishments? are we talking about ALL international accomplishments? are we talking about overall skills? what?

[duncan228]

Oh...I guess Duncan isn't considered international?
The minute Duncan is on any "not American" list, the conversation is over.

[romain.star]

1/ Hakeem
2/ Parker
3/ Manu
4/ Nash
5/ Dirk

[duncan228]

I don't know why I don't put Hakeem first.
I was a fan in his day, watched plenty of him.
I know how great he was.
For some reason he doesn't make my number one.

Maybe because the rest of your list are active players so it seems fresher, more currrent.

[romain.star]

I don't know why I don't put Hakeem first.
I was a fan in his day, watched plenty of him.
I know how great he was.
For some reason he doesn't make my number one.

Maybe because the rest of your list are active players so it seems fresher, more currrent.


you're just a huge spurs fan !!

[duncan228]

you're just a huge spurs fan !!

True, but if we're being honest...

Duncan fan.
Then Spurs fan.

Of course, the two are permanently tied together so it works out well for me. :)

[MaNuMaNiAc]

here are my lists:

Skill wise:

1. Hakeem
2. Dirk
3. Nash
4. Manu
5. Parker

Heart wise:

1. Hakeem
2. Manu
3. Parker
4. Nash
5. Dirk

Personal accomplishments in the NBA:

1. Hakeem
2. Nash
3. Dirk
4. Parker
5. Manu

Personal OVERALL accomplishments:

1. Hakeem
2. Manu
3. Nash
4. Dirk
5. Parker

Disclaimer: When I say overall I mean everywhere, throughout their careers, be it FIBA or NBA.

[yeahone]

You need to specify a little more bro. I mean, if we're talking international titles, Manu has so many more than any of those that its not even close. On the other hand, no one in their right mind would choose any of those over Hakeem if we're talking more talented player of them all. Plus, some people seem to think Duncan is an international player, so...

SO, are we talking best international player based on NBA accomplishments? are we talking about ALL international accomplishments? are we talking about overall skills? what?

am speaking on accomplishments in the NBA...not international ball...if then i guess Manu would have ot be near the top of the list

[duncan228]

here are my lists:

Skill wise:

1. Hakeem
2. Dirk
3. Nash
4. Manu
5. Parker

Heart wise:

1. Hakeem
2. Manu
3. Parker
4. Nash
5. Dirk

Personal accomplishments in the NBA:

1. Hakeem
2. Nash
3. Dirk
4. Parker
5. Manu

Personal OVERALL accomplishments:

1. Manu
2. Hakeem
3. Nash
4. Dirk
5. Parker

Disclaimer: When I say overall I mean everywhere, throughout their careers, be it FIBA or NBA.

Nice way to break it down. :tu
Now I have to re-think my list this way.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

On second thought, Hakeem should be on top of the overall accomplishments really.

[Cloud786]

Hakeem no contest.

[romain.star]

Overall accomplishments:

1/ Hakeem (2 NBA titles, several allstar selections, one of the greatest center ever)

2/ Parker (3 NBA titles, 1 MVP Finals, still 25...)

3/ Manu (3 NBA titles, 1 sixth man award.... in process)

4/ Nash (2 times MVP, several allsta selections... a great PG but has never played in the NBA Finals)

5/ Dirk (on time MVP, several allstar selection... he led his team to the NBA finals but...... 2007 Golden State)

6/ Mutombo (several times DPOY, one NBA Finals with the Sixers, one of the greatest defensive player out of Georgetown)

7/ Kukoc (3 NBA titles, 1 sixth man award, a great shooter)

8/ Drazen Petrovic (no all star, no title but possibly the more gifted of all)

9/ Yao Ming (several all star selections, a dominant force in the paint who fails year after year when Playoffs come)

10/ Sabonis (too bad he didn't enter the league during his prime, Jordan or Isiah would have one less ring)

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Overall accomplishments:

1/ Hakeem (2 NBA titles, several allstar selections, one of the greatest center ever)

2/ Parker (3 NBA titles, 1 MVP Finals, still 25...)

3/ Manu (3 NBA titles, 1 sixth man award.... in process)

4/ Nash (2 times MVP, several allsta selections... a great PG but has never played in the NBA Finals)

5/ Dirk (on time MVP, several allstar selection... he led his team to the NBA finals but...... 2007 Golden State)

6/ Mutombo (several times DPOY, one NBA Finals with the Sixers, one of the greatest defensive player out of Georgetown)

7/ Kukoc (3 NBA titles, 1 sixth man award, a great shooter)

8/ Drazen Petrovic (no all star, no title but possibly the more gifted of all)

9/ Yao Ming (several all star selections, a dominant force in the paint who fails year after year when Playoffs come)

10/ Sabonis (too bad he didn't enter the league during his prime, Jordan or Isiah would have one less ring)
What's overall? You're talking NBA, overall. Parker isn't even close to Manu or Hakeem overall.

[Tippecanoe]

hakeem is #1. and its not even close

[Tippecanoe]

Parker
Manu
Hakeem
Nash
Dirk


that is messed up. no way hakeem gets ranked below parker and manu

[some_user86]

How is this even a contest?

I'm a Spurs fan, but Hakeem was NBA MVP, 2-Time NBA Champion, 2-Time NBA Finals MVP, 2-Time Defensive POY, one of the fifty greatest NBA Players of all time, 12-Time All Star, Olympic Gold medalist. It's not even a close.

[romain.star]

What's overall? You're talking NBA, overall. Parker isn't even close to Manu or Hakeem overall.

i'm talking NBA... not FIBA...

[MaNuMaNiAc]

i'm talking NBA... not FIBA...
Well, that's not overall all now, is it? NBA I agree that Parker is above Manu in accomplishments, but above Dirk and Nash? Sorry, no dice.

[Freeze]

Hakeem is US citizen, gold medalist with the US team in 1996 Olympic games, and learn BB at the University of Houston.

IMO you can't consider him as an international player...

[romain.star]

Well, that's not overall all now, is it? NBA I agree that Parker is above Manu in accomplishments, but above Dirk and Nash? Sorry, no dice.


yeah that's not overall then.. sorry, my english sucks

btw IMO both manu and tony are above Dirk and Nash because of what they'v acheived during the playoffs (Nash never played NBA Finals, Dirk... well.... let's say "Golden State"....)

[some_user86]

Hakeem is US citizen, gold medalist with the US team in 1996 Olympic games, and learn BB at the University of Houston.

IMO you can't consider him as an international player...

Why not? He was born in and spent his formative years (up to age 18) in Nigeria. Even now, he spends most of his time in Jordan, doing Islamic studies.

[diego]

here are my lists:

Skill wise:

1. Hakeem
2. Dirk
3. Nash
4. Manu
5. Parker

Heart wise:

1. Hakeem
2. Manu
3. Parker
4. Nash
5. Dirk

Personal accomplishments in the NBA:

1. Hakeem
2. Nash
3. Dirk
4. Parker
5. Manu

Personal OVERALL accomplishments:

1. Hakeem
2. Manu
3. Nash
4. Dirk
5. Parker

Disclaimer: When I say overall I mean everywhere, throughout their careers, be it FIBA or NBA.


agreed, hakeem is still best overall. the question is to what point does hakeem qualify, when he really learned the game in the US (i believe he came at HS age?) and represented the US internationally. basically the same case as duncan, and if duncan is considered as well, it immediately becomes hakeem vs duncan, or in other words, too close to call, unless timmy continues as expected, in which case he would be #1. also, if parker continues improving, he may well eclipse everyone on the list

[diego]

also, i would fit sabonis somewhere in those lists, skill wise i'd take him over dirk any day, and as a big, coordinated, smart center i might take him over nash too. his nba accomplishments are basically 0 but he had some international success and like i said skill wise may have been the best outside of hakeem and duncan

[polandprzem]

maniac are you talking about Europe and NBA on equal standards?

I mean the european champion and MVP is the same as an NBA champ and MVP?

[romain.star]

maniac are you talking about Europe and NBA on equal standards?

I mean the european champion and MVP is the same as an NBA champ and MVP?

clearly not.. I would say: a first round of NBA Playoffs (Eastern Conference) and a Final Four are equal in term of achievement

[MaNuMaNiAc]

maniac are you talking about Europe and NBA on equal standards?

I mean the european champion and MVP is the same as an NBA champ and MVP?
no I'm not, but I consider an Olympic gold medal a bigger achievement than a Finals MVP. I definitely consider an NBA regular season MVP to be of more importance than a European MVP. Still, in Manu's case, the sheer number of accolades in FIBA play have to put him up there among the greatest international players out there. In terms of OVERALL accomplishments, I firmly believe Manu has Dirk beat, and Parker isn't even close.

[Freeze]

clearly not.. I would say: a first round of NBA Playoffs (Eastern Conference) and a Final Four are equal in term of achievement

uhh ???
Half of the NBA teams are in playoff, only the four best Euro teams are in the final four...

Euroleague is very hard, even if the overall NBA level is higher, because of the numerous teams in there, the fact there are also the domestic leagues, and the fact they don't compete on a several games series as in NBA playoff.

So even if the level of play is lower, an euroleague title is IMO equal of a conf champion in term of achievement.

That said here's the way I do rank titles :
Olympics
World Championship
NBA
Euroleague
European championship

[Freeze]

I firmly believe Manu has Dirk beat, and Parker isn't even close.

I agree even if Manu has a way better cast in NT than Dirk (Germany definitively sucks when we're talking about BB) so he can't win anything with it. Moreover, he left early Europe while Manu were playing in the best Euro team of that time.

In fact the point that I agree the most is that both of them are way over tony right now, even if 25yo TP is ahead of 25yo Dirk and 25yo Manu.

[romain.star]

uhh ???
Half of the NBA teams are in playoff, only the four best Euro teams are in the final four...

Euroleague is very hard, even if the overall NBA level is higher, because of the numerous teams in there, the fact there are also the domestic leagues, and the fact they don't compete on a several games series as in NBA playoff.

So even if the level of play is lower, an euroleague title is IMO equal of a conf champion in term of achievement.

That said here's the way I do rank titles :
Olympics
World Championship
NBA
Euroleague
European championship


Ok so you clearly underestimate NBA there

For ANY basketball player, a NBA title is the greatest achievement (Manu might said the contrary when he led his country to Olympic Gold but he was not telling the truth)

Therefore, here's my ranking:
- NBA
- Olympics
- World Championship
- Euroleague
- European Championship

[tmtcsc]

C'mon now...I like Tony but he's not even the best international player on his own team.

Manu Ginobili is a beast.

1. Hakeem
2. Manu
3. Parker
4. Dirk
5. Petrovich

[meta2007]

Without a doubt, Manu is the greatest international player ever. Olympics golden medelist, nba champions, europ league champion, no one is close to him. :)

If you cannot see it, I have to say you are a MOH!

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Without a doubt, Manu is the greatest international player ever. Olympics golden medelist, nba champions, europ league champion, no one is close to him. :)

If you cannot see it, I have to say you are a MOH!
Do everyone a favor and go check Hakeem's resume please!?

You're hurting your own cause bro

[some_user86]

uhh ???
Half of the NBA teams are in playoff, only the four best Euro teams are in the final four...

Euroleague is very hard, even if the overall NBA level is higher, because of the numerous teams in there, the fact there are also the domestic leagues, and the fact they don't compete on a several games series as in NBA playoff.

So even if the level of play is lower, an euroleague title is IMO equal of a conf champion in term of achievement.

That said here's the way I do rank titles :
Olympics
World Championship
NBA
Euroleague
European championship

idk, I feel the modern NBA Championship supercedes any FIBA competition because it has the best players on the planet (moreso than even the Olympics or World Championships) competing for a title. The best players migrate to the NBA. The best players do not always compete for the Olympics or World Championships. I think both of these competitions have been regulated to 'B' status by even the Euroleague players. In fact, I would rate Euroleague above Olympics or World Championships in terms of importance.

[romain.star]

Do everyone a favor and go check Hakeem's resume please!?

You're hurting your own cause bro

that's something i appreciate about you.. it's quite clear you're a huge fan of Manu and you're sometimes a bit biased when you talk about him (just like any other fan) but you're trying to stay as objective as possible... that's appreciated

[meta2007]

In 1996, Olajuwon assisted in the gold medal-winning performance of the United States national team.

Same as Duncan, I don't think Hakeem can be seen as a pure international player!


Do everyone a favor and go check Hakeem's resume please!?

You're hurting your own cause bro

[Kibic]

Obviously we are talking from year 1992. So there was no BB before. 
Ignorance at its best possible performance.
Anyway, one must take in account that in time of Petrovic and Kukoc those players didn’t have the same time to present their capabilities.

1. Petrovic
2. Kukoc
3. Dirk
4. Divac
5. Manu
6. TP

[meta2007]

I guess you are an european!

If you think those players are better than Manu, please give evidence to prove your point!


Obviously we are talking from year 1992. So there was no BB before. 
Ignorance at its best possible performance.
Anyway, one must take in account that in time of Petrovic and Kukoc those players didn’t have the same time to present their capabilities.

1. Petrovic
2. Kukoc
3. Dirk
4. Divac
5. Manu
6. TP

[romain.star]

Obviously we are talking from year 1992. So there was no BB before. 
Ignorance at its best possible performance.
Anyway, one must take in account that in time of Petrovic and Kukoc those players didn’t have the same time to present their capabilities.

1. Petrovic
2. Kukoc
3. Dirk
4. Divac
5. Manu
6. TP


you have to be from the Balkans

Good for you... Petrovic was possibly the most gifted of all but he died too young Divas was great but he is not even in the top 10 (Parker, Nash, Hakeem, Sabonis, Ming...)

[Freeze]

idk, I feel the modern NBA Championship supercedes any FIBA competition because it has the best players on the planet (moreso than even the Olympics or World Championships) competing for a title. The best players migrate to the NBA. The best players do not always compete for the Olympics or World Championships. I think both of these competitions have been regulated to 'B' status by even the Euroleague players. In fact, I would rate Euroleague above Olympics or World Championships in terms of importance.

That's why it's hard to win, iy's not just a single tournament, you have to qualify first, and then win the championship. Plus you don't choose your country, if the coach doesn'tfit you, or your teammates, you can't switch to an other country.
Parker has never played the Olympics (last shot in 2012 ?) or a world championship despite being a final MVP, 3 times NBA champion. Look at US national teams over the last years who can't win those tournaments too (I know I know, Timmy said it, FIBA sucks) despite having the best cast on paper.

[Kibic]

Just don't put Drazen and TP in same sentence. Thanks.

[exstatic]

1. Hakeem
2. Petrovic
3. Manu
4. Dirk
5. Parker

Sarunas Marciulionis also got serious consideration for my list. He was the first Euro guard (1989) to succeed in the NBA, twice being runner up for the 6th man award while playing for Nellie in GS. In the end, though, he wasn't as talented as Petrovic or as successful as Manu and Parker. Nash is a one way player, so he didn't make the five, either. Sorry, that's the way I roll. Kukoc was left off for the same reason.

[exstatic]

Just don't put Drazen and TP in same sentence. Thanks.
Why not? You just did.

[romain.star]

Just don't put Drazen and TP in same sentence. Thanks.


woh... what's up with TP?

[SpurOutofTownFan]

idk, I feel the modern NBA Championship supercedes any FIBA competition because it has the best players on the planet (moreso than even the Olympics or World Championships) competing for a title. The best players migrate to the NBA. The best players do not always compete for the Olympics or World Championships. I think both of these competitions have been regulated to 'B' status by even the Euroleague players. In fact, I would rate Euroleague above Olympics or World Championships in terms of importance.

Main reason why NBA has the best players in the planet is because of the paychecks they get. Otherwise, it would be just in par with Europe. NBA has the luxury of being able to do this. It's like the soccer Italian or Spanish league that pay the best salaries so they have the most competitive leagues.

Having said all of this, winning a Gold medal in the Olympics must be the hardest thing to accomplish. You have very few games and you have to win them all to reach the finals. If you make a mistake you mostly don't have a second chance to fix it. NBA finals still give you a chance to make amends and in fact games are usually won after coaches' adjustments.

Olympics is definitely over the NBA in prestige and difficulty (played only every 4 years and I would love to hear what Jordan has to say about it). And Manu is the only player ever to have won a piece of each big tournament on the planet. I consider him over everyone else in that category; however, Hakeem is above others NBA-wise.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Just don't put Drazen and TP in same sentence. Thanks.Drazen was a bit before my time I have to admit. I had heard of him, but never seen him play really. Having said that, accomplishments wise, he doesn't hold a candle to Hakeem, or even Manu for that matter.

[exstatic]

Drazen Petrovic may have been the best pure shooter in the history of basketball on the planet earth.

[timmy21_4rings]

1. Hakeem
2. Manu (check his international records. Led his team to Olympic Gold Medal, MVP in Euro/Spanish League in addition to his NBA achievements.
3. Dirk
4. Parker/Nash..Nash is way overrated. While Parker's MVP is fluke. I am not sure Nash is better than Parker.

[timmy21_4rings]

If Manu retires today, he will goto HOF based on his achievements (more specifically for the role he played in these achievements). He is a winner and has won everywhere he has gone. That is why I ranked him 2nd. For others HOF is still distinct.

[remingtonbo2001]

This thread is suppose to be about THE GREATEST INTERNATIONAL PLAYER.

Please explain why most are only judging by NBA measurements.

Back in the day, such an argument might have been qualified, but the quality of play in the league has deteriorated.

Manu's got a Gold Medal. That is non-NBA related.
Hakeem has one too.
Really, I'd say it's a lock between Manu and Hakeem.

[Texas_Ranger]

Hakeem.

[meta2007]

In 1996, Olajuwon assisted in the gold medal-winning performance of the United States national team.



Hakeem.

[exstatic]

In 1996, Olajuwon assisted in the gold medal-winning performance of the United States national team.
He naturalized when he was in his 30s. His basketball career was almost over at that point. The preponderance of his career was spent as a foreign player.

[meta2007]

I remember Yao was considered as the first international player to be the no.1 pick in nba history. That means Hakeem was not an international player when he was the no.1 pick!


He naturalized when he was in his 30s. His basketball career was almost over at that point. The preponderance of his career was spent as a foreign player.

[exstatic]

I remember Yao was considered as the first international player to be the no.1 pick in nba history. That means Hakeem was not an international player when he was the no.1 pick!
They differentiate between players who come straight from abroad, and those who play some HS or college ball here. Hakeem was born outside the US, and was a non-US citizen until his 30s. This isn't even a debate. Stop the madness.

[meta2007]

Without a doubt, Hakeem is not a pure international player. He was trained in USA, and get his olympic gold with USA team.

In addition, Manu is 30 years old now. When Hakeem was 30 years old, he even didn't get his first ring! 30 years old Manu >>>> 30 years old Hakeem!

Manu is in his prime time now, and he still will have some amazing achivements ahead. If you guys want to compare Manu to Hakeem, you should do it when Manu is retired.


They differentiate between players who come straight from abroad, and those who play some HS or college ball here. Hakeem was born outside the US, and was a non-US citizen until his 30s. This isn't even a debate. Stop the madness.

[Toni61]

Drazen Petrovic was at time the best national Player in the leage !!!

[exstatic]

I refuse to acknowledge that a player born and drafted as a Nigerian citizen is an international player.

[some_user86]

That's why it's hard to win, iy's not just a single tournament, you have to qualify first, and then win the championship. Plus you don't choose your country, if the coach doesn'tfit you, or your teammates, you can't switch to an other country.
Parker has never played the Olympics (last shot in 2012 ?) or a world championship despite being a final MVP, 3 times NBA champion. Look at US national teams over the last years who can't win those tournaments too (I know I know, Timmy said it, FIBA sucks) despite having the best cast on paper.

It's not a matter of qualification, rules, or things such as that. It's the fact that the best players refuse to play for their respective teams. That's why it is a useless metric for performance or 'greatness'. It doesn't mean anything if some players refuse to compete. Why else is Euroleague considered a comparatively worse league to the NBA? Because the level of competition isn't as stringent as in the NBA (though that is changing), not because of some flaw in Euroleague design. It's all about the level of competition, and the NBA has the best of such a metric.

[Pero]

For ANY basketball player, a NBA title is the greatest achievement (Manu might said the contrary when he led his country to Olympic Gold but he was not telling the truth)

And you know this since you read Manu's mind right? :lol
For most international players I'd dare say that an Olympic Gold is much more important than an NBA title.

[meta2007]

Bush: "I am proud to call Hakeem the citizen of the united states!" :lol

[romain.star]

And you know this since you read Manu's mind right? :lol
For most international players I'd dare say that an Olympic Gold is much more important than an NBA title.

Manu loves his country too much to say so, he just doesn't want to disapoint his fans abroad

[Pero]

Manu loves his country too much to say so, he just doesn't want to disapoint his fans abroad

Yeah, right. :rolleyes

[romain.star]

thanx for agreeing

[exstatic]

I refuse to acknowledge that a player born and drafted as a Nigerian citizen is an international player.

[meta2007]

Bush: "I am proud to call Hakeem the citizen of the united states!" :lol



...

[dallaskd]

I remember Yao was considered as the first international player to be the no.1 pick in nba history. That means Hakeem was not an international player when he was the no.1 pick!

Based on that, ill go with Dirk. Manu has the awards but if you go by who is a better basketbal player...DIRK>MANU

[meta2007]

:lmao :lmao :lmao


Based on that, ill go with Dirk. Manu has the awards but if you go by who is a better basketbal player...DIRK>MANU

[exstatic]

I refuse to acknowledge that a player born and drafted as a Nigerian citizen is an international player.

[ploto]

"Drazen Petrovic was an extraordinary young man, and a true pioneer in the global sports of basketball. I know that a lasting part of his athletic legacy will be that he paved the way for other international players to compete successfully in the NBA. His contributions to the sport of basketball were enormous." -- David Stern

[meta2007]

NBA CAREER AVERAGES

YEAR TEAM G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
89-90 POR 77 0 12.6 .485 .459 .844 .60 .80 1.40 1.5 .30 .03 1.25 1.70 7.6
90-91 POR 18 0 7.4 .451 .167 .682 .60 .40 1.00 1.1 .33 .00 .67 1.20 4.4
90-91 NJN 43 0 20.5 .500 .373 .861 1.00 1.20 2.10 1.5 .86 .02 1.60 2.60 12.6
90-91 -- 61 0 16.6 .493 .354 .832 .80 1.00 1.80 1.4 .70 .02 1.33 2.20 10.2
91-92 NJN 82 82 36.9 .508 .444 .808 1.20 2.00 3.10 3.1 1.28 .13 2.62 3.00 20.6
92-93 NJN 70 67 38.0 .518 .449 .870 .60 2.10 2.70 3.5 1.34 .19 2.91 3.40 22.3
Career 290 149 26.4 .506 .437 .841 .80 1.50 2.30 2.4 .91 .09 2.06 2.60 15.4
Playoff 29 9 21.0 .474 .324 .696 .60 1.20 1.80 1.4 .41 .03 1.72 2.30 10.2

International

Medal record
Competitor for Yugoslavia, Croatia
Basketball
Olympic Games
Bronze 1984 Los Angeles Yugoslavia
Silver 1988 Seoul Yugoslavia
Silver 1992 Barcelona Croatia
FIBA World Championship
Bronze 1986 Spain Yugoslavia
Gold 1990 Argentina Yugoslavia
FIBA European Championship
Bronze 1987 Greece Yugoslavia
Gold 1989 Yugoslavia Yugoslavia



"Drazen Petrovic was an extraordinary young man, and a true pioneer in the global sports of basketball. I know that a lasting part of his athletic legacy will be that he paved the way for other international players to compete successfully in the NBA. His contributions to the sport of basketball were enormous." -- David Stern

[Rip-Hamilton32]

wow i can't believe people saying manu is better then hakeem, i know this is spurstalk but come on this guy is a legend and a hall of famer, manu is not

[meta2007]

Manu is still in his prime time, and he will be a HOF.


wow i can't believe people saying manu is better then hakeem, i know this is spurstalk but come on this guy is a legend and a hall of famer, manu is not

[whottt]

You guys have to excuse excstatic...he clearly doesn't understand what being an American means....to the degree that he insults Hakeem Olajuwon.


I guess Bob Hope isn't an American either....

[ashbeeigh]

Why has no one said Beno?


:lmao


continue.

[exstatic]

You guys have to excuse excstatic...he clearly doesn't understand what being an American means....to the degree that he insults Hakeem Olajuwon.


I guess Bob Hope isn't an American either....
No, he's dead. That makes him a corpse.

Hakeem was born, drafted, and played over half his career as a Nigerian citizen. I really don't think he'd be insulted to be considered in discussions of the best foreign players ever, whoooot.

[Freeze]

It's not a matter of qualification, rules, or things such as that. It's the fact that the best players refuse to play for their respective teams. That's why it is a useless metric for performance or 'greatness'. It doesn't mean anything if some players refuse to compete. Why else is Euroleague considered a comparatively worse league to the NBA? Because the level of competition isn't as stringent as in the NBA (though that is changing), not because of some flaw in Euroleague design. It's all about the level of competition, and the NBA has the best of such a metric.

You're kidding right ?

[polandprzem]

hakeem is from the american basketball

[whottt]

No, he's dead. That makes him a corpse.

Hakeem was born, drafted, and played over half his career as a Nigerian citizen. I really don't think he'd be insulted to be considered in discussions of the best foreign players ever, whoooot.



He also wanted to become an American citizen...and considers himself an American. He considers himself a Muslim and a Nigerian as well...but being an American doesn't exclude him from being either of those...which has a lot to do with why he wanted to become one..

He was married here, his kids were born here, he was educated here.

Hakeem's an American...you don't have to be born here to be one, and I shouldn't have to explain that...


And he is a product of the American basketball system as well....just for the sake of argument. IF he'd stayed in Nigeria you'd have never heard of Hakeem the baketball player...you'd have heard of the biggest goalie ever instead.



Why aren't you guys listing Patrick Ewing? He was born in Jamaica...

[whottt]

Manumaniac...you should checkout Sarunas Marculonis(sp?)...he's the guy Manu is most often compared too(Manu's better, but Sarunas did have that same kind of herky jerky game).




Anyway...my list.

Duncan is an American Citizen so I won't insult him by excluding him...nor will I do that to Hakeem since he considers himself an American.


My top 5:

1. Sabonis - the guy who indirectly lead to the creation of the Dream Team.
2. Manu - Manu hasn't won an NBA MVP...but he's won everything and everywhere else. I'd much rather have his career than that of any other International player.
3. Steve Nash
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Toni Kukoc or Vlade Divacs, can't decide.



Tony's day will come....

[timmy21_4rings]

Why has no one said Beno?


:lmao


continue.

we are talking abt GREATEST...lol

[polandprzem]

Not includding Petro in the top 5 is out of mind

[sendman]

My top 5:

1. Sabonis - the guy who indirectly lead to the creation of the Dream Team.
2. Manu - Manu hasn't won an NBA MVP...but he's won everything and everywhere else. I'd much rather have his career than that of any other International player.
3. Steve Nash
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Toni Kukoc or Vlade Divacs, can't decide.



Tony's day will come....

How about you don't have a clue.
Yugoslavian team is the reason that forced US to put that original dream team together. Ask Alonzo Mournig and his teammates haow they felt in Argentina WC.
Petrovic
Kukoc
Divac
Radja
Danilovic
Paspalj
Zdovc
Djordjevic

Do this names ring a bell? If they don't than you are very young or you know shit about international bball. This team trashed any team they played by 20 points (average) and US took international competition for real for the first time. All this guys played in NBA except for Zdovc (maybe the best European defender of all times) who also had some offers (Lakers I think).

[whottt]

How about you don't have a clue.
Yugoslavian team is the reason that forced US to put that original dream team together. Ask Alonzo Mournig and his teammates haow they felt in Argentina WC.
Petrovic
Kukoc
Divac
Radja
Danilovic
Paspalj
Zdovc
Djordjevic

Idiot...obviously some of those names ring a bell since 2 of them made my list of the top 5 international players ever...


However, are you now claiming that any of those guys are fit to hold Sabonis jock? Either have the balls to make that claim directly and be an idiot who's not afraid to be an idiot...or shut up.


It was the defeat of the 88 Olympic Team to the Soviet Union that lead directly to the creation of the Dream Team...trust me I was here when it happened. The decision happened in America...I know why we made it.

[bdictjames]

Manumaniac...you should checkout Sarunas Marculonis(sp?)...he's the guy Manu is most often compared too(Manu's better, but Sarunas did have that same kind of herky jerky game).




Anyway...my list.

Duncan is an American Citizen so I won't insult him by excluding him...nor will I do that to Hakeem since he considers himself an American.


My top 5:

1. Sabonis - the guy who indirectly lead to the creation of the Dream Team.
2. Manu - Manu hasn't won an NBA MVP...but he's won everything and everywhere else. I'd much rather have his career than that of any other International player.
3. Steve Nash
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Toni Kukoc or Vlade Divacs, can't decide.



Tony's day will come....
I saw Marciulonis at one NBA vintage game, I thought he was real horrible. Not at any way compared to Ginobili, although he did get to the line often. It was the highest scoring game in NBA history if Im correct.

For me I'd put:

1. Hakeem
2. Manu
3. Parker
4. Nash
5. Petrovic

[sendman]

Idiot...obviously some of those names ring a bell since 2 of them made my list of the top 5 international players ever...


However, are you now claiming that any of those guys are fit to hold Sabonis jock? Either have the balls to make that claim directly and be an idiot who's not afraid to be an idiot...or shut up.


It was the defeat of the 88 Olympic Team to the Soviet Union that lead directly to the creation of the Dream Team...trust me I was here when it happened. The decision happened in America...I know why we made it.
And I thought I'm the one that has problems with English.

Those are members of that famous Yugoslavian team that wracked havoc in international competitions. I mentioned THEIR NAMES to show you why US established that DREAM TEAM. US team did lose against Russians, but up and coming team was Yugo team that lost to Russians in semis in Seoul. In the next few years they simply destroyed international competition everywhere.
Russians were a lot weaker at that time.
I never claimed that any of those players I mentioned is better that Sabonis as an individual player (there are at least 2, but that is not an issue here). But as a TEAM they were invincible and original DREAM TEAM would have quite a game against them.
So you illiterate clown...READING IS GOOD! JUST DO IT!

[mystargtr34]

Hakeem is a legend of the game... After the six untouchables (MJ, Russell, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Bird) Hakeem is probably the greatest to every play the game.

After that its tough to say... Are Manu's 3 titles and FIBA accomplishments more impressive than Dirk leading his team to the NBA Finals as lead dog and winning individual honours... same as Nash and Parker... do we take Parker's rings as second/third option or Nash's individual accomplishments.

Out of the list you made...

Hakeem

-------------

Out of the front runners playing now...

Dirk
Nash
Manu
Parker

But then you so much more... Kukoc and Drazen,... even Vlade ...

[LEN BIAS 4EVER]

It was the defeat of the 88 Olympic Team to the Soviet Union that lead directly to the creation of the Dream Team...

That loss in 88 was entirely the fault of John Thompson; he should have never been the coach in the first place after Lute Olson brought back gold in the 86 world championships for the first time in 32 years knocking off both Yugoslavia and Russia, and he most certainly should not have been allowed to pick the roster because of how biased he was.

With the 3 point shot in use and knowing in order to win the gold we would have to go through Russia, he doesn't have Sean Elliot on the team who was way too quick for any Russian to guard, and either Steve Kerr or Glen Rice should have been on the roster to hit 3's. And knowing Sabonis was coming about a 2nd center on the roster like Ron Seikaly ??

I agree Sabonis was a great basketball player by any measure, but John Thompson alone was the reason that Russia won the gold in 1988.

[diego]

petrovic and marcilonis (sp?!) may have been great individually, but accomplishments wise they didnt have especially great careers (in the case of petrovic, we'll never really know). some europeans tend to overrate guys like petrovic, and the yugo national team of that time. they will always be remembered for being good players and for opening the NBA to internationals, but are you really telling me petrovic is the best international player ever, and that that yugo team was the best national team ever????

if we're just basing this on skills, then this is between sabonis and hakeem, and like whottt i consider hakeem american, because he learned the game there. sabonis learned to play ball in russia and he had an amazing combination of size, coordination, and ball iq- he played both ends of the court to perfection.

[Freeze]

It's not a matter of qualification, rules, or things such as that. It's the fact that the best players refuse to play for their respective teams. That's why it is a useless metric for performance or 'greatness'. It doesn't mean anything if some players refuse to compete. Why else is Euroleague considered a comparatively worse league to the NBA? Because the level of competition isn't as stringent as in the NBA (though that is changing), not because of some flaw in Euroleague design. It's all about the level of competition, and the NBA has the best of such a metric.

Still thinking that you're kidding...

here's from a Steve Nash interview (check the other thread) and this guy has even never played an NBA Final !!!!

Q. Steve - What do you think would be more gratifying, scoring the winning basket on the buzzer to win the NBA Championship or scoring the winning goal in the dying seconds of the (football) World Cup Final (for Canada!) Vince Small, Paris

A. Great question. The simple answer is, you can't go wrong with either choice. BUT, for me, there is something about the World Cup, having the whole country behind you and the whole world watching you, that makes that unbeatable. The NBA Finals are every year, the World Cup is every four years. I just think there is nothing like the World Cup. Then add the fact, you've got me scoring the winner for Canada ...! I guess that sounds far fetched but it strikes me Canada have as much chance as England of winning the World Cup these days!

[sendman]

some europeans tend to overrate guys like petrovic, and the yugo national team of that time. they will always be remembered for being good players and for opening the NBA to internationals, but are you really telling me petrovic is the best international player ever, and that that yugo team was the best national team ever????


I won't talk about who is best. Is it Sabonis, Parker, Dirk, Kukoc...or somebody else. How can somebody determine something like that. You can't compare Jordan and say Chemberlain (different era, different rules, different equipment...) OK you can, but with no real result. The same goes for teams. You can only state your personal preferences. And my personal preference is that Yugo team. I like Argentina with Manu, Sanchez, Oberto, Scola and others very much, I liked that "Lietuva" team with Sarunas and Sabonis too. Still, the best BBALL team of all times probably is that original dream team from USA, but I really do believe that that Yugo team would give them run for their money (International rules).

[diego]

that yugo team was great, but i dont think they could have given the 92 dream team any more than a good challenge. ive heard too many times people arguing they could be better than the 92 dream team when there is really no reason to believe that. the 92 final against croatia, was about half of that yugo team, and they lost by 30, to a team that had less than a month preparation. i dont see how 4-5 players (mostly from the bench) would change that deficit, moreso taking into account that dream team never showed us more than 3rd gear.

[Kibic]

In 1992 Croatian team are only Petrovic, Kukoc, Rađa and Vrankovic from Yugo team. So you miss 8 players. Kukoc and Petrovic were starters in Yugo team. So you have 2/5 of original starting 5. Great coaching.
And even Petrovic, Rađa and Kukoc were enough to lead 25-23 in finals. Yes, they eventually lost by 30. But Dream team have to play Jordan and Magic so they didn't give game a strange direction before half time. Of course those 3 players can't win against selection of 2 ½ generation (10 years) best USA basketball players. But with full Yugo roster… where Dream team wouldn't compare against 19 years old Croatian players but would have to against 23-26 years old »veterans«, still quick, skilful….
NBA is all marketing. It is business. Players are so promoted that they actually start to believe they are better by margin. Thank god we have WC and Olympics where they can prove how good they are. Please don't give me »rules issues«…. Will continue (if you wish)

[Kibic]

And yes, we all have completely forgot about Galis. Put Nikos Galis (in his best years) in game and Sabonis and others can just sit and cry.

[mookie2001]

Khrapa and Garbajosa

[sendman]

that yugo team was great, but i don't think they could have given the 92 dream team any more than a good challenge.
I respect your opinion, but will never know.
That yugo team was undefeated for years. Not only that. Nobody couldn't come even close. I have just one regret about former Yugoslavia falling apart and that is that I couldn't see that particular game. Again,this is my personal opinion and nothing more.
OK, I'm lying, my real regret is about all this people that got killed and destruction that goes with it. Just sad.

[Kibic]

i know! :)

[diego]

a lot of those same things you can say about the dream team- undefeated for years, no one ever came close (well, for 8 years at least, then finally 10 till they lost).

like i said, i think they were a great team, just not quite as great as the dream team.

and, though a bit off topic, my condolences to anyone here who lived through the separation, i know it was more than just your basketball and futbol teams that suffered.

[ORION]

did anyone mention Drazen?

[Kibic]

a lot of those same things you can say about the dream team- undefeated for years, no one ever came close (well, for 8 years at least, then finally 10 till they lost).

like i said, i think they were a great team, just not quite as great as the dream team.

and, though a bit off topic, my condolences to anyone here who lived through the separation, i know it was more than just your basketball and futbol teams that suffered.
Of course, they were Dream team (I mean No.1) Later they didn’t have real competition. Yugo fall apart… SSSR fall apart.
What I want to say is TP, Dirk, Nash couldn’t compete with DT No. 1 (Magic, Jordan, Bird, Ewing, Drexler, Pippen, Barkley, Malone, Stockton...) while Yugo can (89, 90, and 91 and if still together 92, 93, 94...).
That is why I think is very wrong to simply forget those players just because one never see them play BB. I would even put aside accomplishments because BB is team sport and it means nothing to me if TP has 3 rings if he has Manu, TD, Bruce Bowen on his side. I can only compare TP with other international players when he plays on international tournaments. Sorry. I saw him this summer and last summer.
I saw him playing for France (64mil.)They lose a game against 2mil. Country of Slovenia which was without (Beno, Nachbar, Vujacic, Becirovic, Milic and Brezec) I can’t put him above any of Yugo (90) team.

[mookie2001]

tp, dirk and nash did compete against jordan, pippen, barkey and malone?

[ORION]

Drazen was one of my favorite players. In my opinion he was the best shooter of all time.

[diego]

we dont and wont know whether anyone else could compete with DT1, because no one ever did. leading by 2pts in the first quarter doesnt count as competing.

I dont understand the logic of saying you cant compare with accomplishments because bball is a team game, then going on to say parker is a worse player because france lost to slovenia. yes, france is a bigger country than slovenia. so what? what does that have to do with parker? criticize how he ran the offense, his %, his D, shot selection, whatever. those are better reasons to put him below the yugo players than whether france lost that game.

[whottt]

And I thought I'm the one that has problems with English.

Those are members of that famous Yugoslavian team that wracked havoc in international competitions. I mentioned THEIR NAMES to show you why US established that DREAM TEAM. US team did lose against Russians, but up and coming team was Yugo team that lost to Russians in semis in Seoul. In the next few years they simply destroyed international competition everywhere.
Russians were a lot weaker at that time.
I never claimed that any of those players I mentioned is better that Sabonis as an individual player (there are at least 2, but that is not an issue here). But as a TEAM they were invincible and original DREAM TEAM would have quite a game against them.
So you illiterate clown...READING IS GOOD! JUST DO IT!


Your logic is completely backwards...

You think the impetus for the creation of the Dream Team was because the USA feared Yugoslavia was on the verge of becoming a dominant Olympic Power...

Potentially.



In reality...the freaking Soviet Union had become the dominant Olympic Power.


Reality > Potentially



Furthermore, in the eyes of America...the Soviet Union was our most hated rival. Yugoslavia was not even on the map...regardless of how good their basketball program was becoming...it was all about the USA VS the USSR and the opposing ideologies.

Period.

[Kibic]

Your logic is completely backwards...

You think the impetus for the creation of the Dream Team was because the USA feared Yugoslavia was on the verge of becoming a dominant Olympic Power...

Potentially.



In reality...the freaking Soviet Union had become the dominant Olympic Power.


Reality > Potentially



Furthermore, in the eyes of America...the Soviet Union was our most hated rival. Yugoslavia was not even on the map...regardless of how good their basketball program was becoming...it was all about the USA VS the USSR and the opposing ideologies.

Period.
Genius. American ignorance. They don't even know who their greatest opponent - enemy is.
If on the line at 90 and 91 Yugo is 9 and USSR is 6. What have you achive if you win against USSR thinking "now we are the best"
Boy will you be surprised again.

[Kibic]

1990
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_FIBA_World_Championship

1991
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EuroBasket_1991

Where is USSR? Just look at the margins.

Reality or ignorance?
Look, American perception is not a problem of all other participants.

[whottt]

Not American ignorance...your arrogance, douche.


American did not give two shits about the World Championships until the Dream Team era began. Nor did they give a shit about Yugoslavia.


We used to send corporate teams to play in them...guys that weren't pro basketball players to play in them. Like the Chrysler basketball team...to play in them.


I'm not the one that arrogant or ignorant...you are you fucking douche, for presuming that you know us better than we know ourselves...


Let me spell it for you real clearly in terms your insecure ass can undersand...


Who won the Gold Medal in 1988? The first time it could be argued America was legitimately beaten in the Olympics?

Was it fucking Yugoslavia? Or was it our ideological arch enemy? At the apex of the Cold War no less?

There's no potential loss there...there is an actual loss there.

You are the arrogant ass for presuming you understand that better than we do...it was US VS the Russians..douche. Plain and simple. Period. End of subject. That was what we cared about. The World Championship didn't mean shit to us...and neither did Yugoslavia...I don't give a fuck how good you think they were.


Now stop being an arrogant ass and either read up on the history of the US Dream Team, not to mention the 50 fucking year rivalry between the US and the USSR in virtually every aspect of competition...or continue to be someone who doesn't know what the fuck they are talking about.


PS: We stil don't really give a shit about the World C...the only reason it matters now is because we lost the Olympics. Most of us can't even tell you who won the last WC's.

[sendman]

OK, slow down. We are talking about sports.
I can agree with Whottt on the fact that average American fan didn't know shit about YU basketball program, previous successes and stuff. They didn't and still don't give a shit about International ball in general (pity it's not only ball, but that is another story).
Only International competition worth something are Olympics. But this goes for general public.
American bball experts knew very well that basketball is growing fast in Europe (South America joined the party later). They also knew political situation. Soviet empire was crumbling at that time faster than YU. Their team was falling apart as well. In 1988 and Junior WC in Bormio (Italy) all eyes were on the YU young guns that won the tournament. G. Payton led the US team that was beaten in the finals (first one in history). Alonzo Mourning and his team was the second victim in the WC that took place in Argentina. Suddenly American teams, that ruled the world, couldn't win one single tournament. Whole situation and POTENTIALLY long haul without any gold or even medal was to much for such powerhouse as USA.
Dream team was established to promote NBA and to teach the world a lesson. And the world took some notes. As I said before, I believe that original dream team is the best team that was ever put together. But that Dream team was not firing on all cylinders. They were not prepared for the real competition. Because of that I think we would witnessed a game that would be closer than many would thought and maybe, just maybe we would have seen one of the biggest upsets in the history of the sport in general. Yes, that Yugo team was good enough to pull off something like that in the right circumstances.
It

[Kibic]

Not American ignorance...your arrogance, douche.


American did not give two shits about the World Championships until the Dream Team era began. Nor did they give a shit about Yugoslavia.


We used to send corporate teams to play in them...guys that weren't pro basketball players to play in them. Like the Chrysler basketball team...to play in them.


I'm not the one that arrogant or ignorant...you are you fucking douche, for presuming that you know us better than we know ourselves...


Let me spell it for you real clearly in terms your insecure ass can undersand...


Who won the Gold Medal in 1988? The first time it could be argued America was legitimately beaten in the Olympics?

Was it fucking Yugoslavia? Or was it our ideological arch enemy? At the apex of the Cold War no less?

There's no potential loss there...there is an actual loss there.

You are the arrogant ass for presuming you understand that better than we do...it was US VS the Russians..douche. Plain and simple. Period. End of subject. That was what we cared about. The World Championship didn't mean shit to us...and neither did Yugoslavia...I don't give a fuck how good you think they were.


Now stop being an arrogant ass and either read up on the history of the US Dream Team, not to mention the 50 fucking year rivalry between the US and the USSR in virtually every aspect of competition...or continue to be someone who doesn't know what the fuck they are talking about.


PS: We stil don't really give a shit about the World C...the only reason it matters now is because we lost the Olympics. Most of us can't even tell you who won the last WC's.
Do not insult me anymore, please!
OT.
how many international player do you know and see their play before 1990? :wakeup

[Kibic]

Not to mention, Yugo give a great shit on spanking USA. It was a pleasure every and each time. We know how important it is.

[Kibic]

And yes, you were in USA vs USSR mode even when USSR fall apart. and you still are. Who gives a shit if you are playing for 5th to 8th place with Russians now?

[sendman]

Do not insult me anymore, please!

You can't do nothing about that. That comes with domestic upbringing or better lack of it. With this kind of behavior certain individual is trying to hide his own insecurity (Ask DR. Phil).
He also called me an idiot just because I have a different opinion on some things here on this forum. :rolleyes

His life must be hell...imagine, HE IS RIGHT ALL THE TIME! Scary!

[some_user86]

Still thinking that you're kidding...

here's from a Steve Nash interview (check the other thread) and this guy has even never played an NBA Final !!!!

Q. Steve - What do you think would be more gratifying, scoring the winning basket on the buzzer to win the NBA Championship or scoring the winning goal in the dying seconds of the (football) World Cup Final (for Canada!) Vince Small, Paris

A. Great question. The simple answer is, you can't go wrong with either choice. BUT, for me, there is something about the World Cup, having the whole country behind you and the whole world watching you, that makes that unbeatable. The NBA Finals are every year, the World Cup is every four years. I just think there is nothing like the World Cup. Then add the fact, you've got me scoring the winner for Canada ...! I guess that sounds far fetched but it strikes me Canada have as much chance as England of winning the World Cup these days!

Absolutely not kidding. What does the above quote have to do with anything? That's a pride factor, not a competitive factor. Some of the world's best players refuse to play in the competition. When that occurs, it destroys the legitimacy of the competition.

[Kibic]

You can't do nothing about that. That comes with domestic upbringing or better lack of it. With this kind of behavior certain individual is trying to hide his own insecurity (Ask DR. Phil).
He also called me an idiot just because I have a different opinion on some things here on this forum. :rolleyes

His life must be hell...imagine, HE IS RIGHT ALL THE TIME! Scary!
Don't worry, he will be just fine. I have a nice pocket just for his kind.

[whottt]

I can only assume that I must have stepped on Slovenian toes here...or innocently stumbled into a former Soviet Bloc country/USSR pissing contest...I assure you, that was not my intent.

First of all, let me attempt to make things more civil by saying...


The late 80's early 90's Lithuanian contingent of the Soviet Basketball team would have owned Yugoslavia by itself.

There, friends again?


I insult because you call me ignorant...let's be clear about this.



Let me put it another way...the Yugoslavian team at that point could have been the greatest basketball team ever assembled in the history of mankind...


It still was not the impetus for the creation of the Dream Team...the 88 loss to the Soviet Union in the Olympics was...what made it even more painful, was that an American military man was a part of that 88 basketball team.


That is what you call a slap in the face, that is what you call, a wake up call.



Finally...I think you guys are severely underating the USSR Team on it's own merits...it had plenty of pro players on it....including a big ass Lithuanian that was making a serious push at being considered the greatest basketball player in the World...and he wasn't playing in the NBA.


IT's not that I am ignorant my Slovenian friends...it's that you just don't understand Americans...and even more strangely, you seem completely clueless of half a century heated rivalry between America and the Soviet Union...in virtually every aspect of human endeavor.

Call us arrogant self centered all you want...just don't call us stupid. And make sure you call the Russians arrogant and self centered while you are doing that....

[whottt]

You guys are the douche bags here...not I.

I said Sabonis is the player that indirectly responsible for the creation of the Dream Team...

You guys got fucking outraged over some imagined impuning of the Yugoslavain Team...


Ya'll are the ones over-reacting, not I....and more importantly, you remain wrong...the Yugoslavian team had jack shit to do with the creation of the Dream Team...I don't care what ya'll tell yourselves over there were our reasons for doing it...I don't care how good the Yugoslavian team was...I'm telling you why we created the Dream Team....


It was because for the first time in our history we were legitimately beaten in the Olympics in basketball...by the Soviet Union. That was the outrage...


I assure you, we weren't sitting here saying...oh shit, in four years the Yugoslavians will beat us...

We were saying, oh shit, the Russians just beat us in basketball. Fix this shit now.

[sendman]

I
Finally...I think you guys are severely underating the USSR Team on it's own merits...it had plenty of pro players on it....including a big ass Lithuanian that was making a serious push at being considered the greatest basketball player in the World...and he wasn't playing in the NBA.


Results between USSR and YU from that time are speaking for themselves. With or without that big lumbering one.

:p: :p: :p: Before you declare a war on Slovenia because of two individuals please at least read what I wrote and then call me out.
It must be my damn English again.

[Extra Stout]

Sorry, Slovenian friends, the impetus for the creation of the Dream Team was the loss to the USSR in 1988. Any heed paid to Yugoslavia was only as part of the general perception that the world was starting to catch up.

The Olympics were all that mattered then. Nobody in the USA cared about the World Championships. They were irrelevant here until 2002, when the NBA put on a marketing blitz as part of its ongoing campaign to globalize the game.

Of course it makes sense that your media would put the spin on it to make it sound like the great superpower America was really concerned about little Yugoslavia. But we weren't. And if Yugoslavia really had been on the nation's consciousness, especially after the Iron Curtain fell, the response would not have been ominous fear and loathing, but rather admiration, because Americans love the plucky underdog, which is exactly why the Lithuanian team gained such a following in the 1990's.

[whottt]

Results between USSR and YU from that time are speaking for themselves. With or without that big lumbering one.

:p: :p: :p: Before you declare a war on Slovenia because of two individuals please at least read what I wrote and then call me out.
It must be my damn English again.



And I'm saying right now? I take the Lithuanians over the Slovenians with their current lineups...


Show me something Slovenia...

I know ya'll are some big tall motherfuckers that drink and play basketball...but I don't think ya'll drink and play basketball as well as the Russians(and their former territories).


When Rasho and Beno get drunk they suck ass the next day...the Lithuanians have proven they can get drunk and still bring it the next day.


Prove it...all I'm sayin.


Edit: I do give Vlade credit for proving you can smoke and play basketball at a good level...but so far he's the aberration. And he's not a Slovene...

Show us something Slovenia. Right now Slomo is the only one showing he's got game.

[Extra Stout]

And I'm saying right now? I take the Lithuanians over the Slovenians with their current lineups...


Show me something Slovenia...

I know ya'll are some big tall motherfuckers that drink and play basketball...but I don't think ya'll drink and play basketball as well as the Russians(and their former territories).


When Rasho and Beno get drunk they suck ass the next day...the Lithuanians have proven they can get drunk and still bring it the next day.


Prove it...all I'm sayin.


Edit: I do give Vlade credit for proving you can smoke and play basketball at a good level...but so far he's the aberration.
Vodka is a good bit stronger than Lasko... and in Slovenia one can find things to do besides get drunk during the winter...

[sendman]

And now I WILL QUOTE MYSELF:

OK, slow down. We are talking about sports.
I can agree with Whottt on the fact that average American fan didn't know shit about YU basketball program, previous successes and stuff. They didn't and still don't give a shit about International ball in general (pity it's not only ball, but that is another story).
Only International competition worth something are Olympics. But this goes for general public.
American bball experts knew very well that basketball is growing fast in Europe (South America joined the party later). They also knew political situation. Soviet empire was crumbling at that time faster than YU. Their team was falling apart as well. In 1988 and Junior WC in Bormio (Italy) all eyes were on the YU young guns that won the tournament. G. Payton led the US team that was beaten in the finals (first one in history). Alonzo Mourning and his team was the second victim in the WC that took place in Argentina. Suddenly American teams, that ruled the world, couldn't win one single tournament. Whole situation and POTENTIALLY long haul without any gold or even medal was to much for such powerhouse as USA.
Dream team was established to promote NBA and to teach the world a lesson. And the world took some notes. As I said before, I believe that original dream team is the best team that was ever put together.

So EXTRA STOUT what is your problem?
I wrote everything YOU ARE SAYING. Do I have to repeat it till I drop dead?

[Extra Stout]

:p: :p: :p: Before you declare a war on Slovenia
I don't think Slovenia has any oil.

[Kibic]

I can only assume that I must have stepped on Slovenian toes here...or innocently stumbled into a former Soviet Bloc country/USSR pissing contest...I assure you, that was not my intent.

First of all, let me attempt to make things more civil by saying...

Not my problem.

The late 80's early 90's Lithuanian contingent of the Soviet Basketball team would have owned Yugoslavia by itself.

Is 1990 late 80's or early 90's? YU vs USSR - 92:72
Now tell me who played for USSR please.

There, friends again?
I insult because you call me ignorant...let's be clear about this.

How nice.


Let me put it another way...the Yugoslavian team at that point could have been the greatest basketball team ever assembled in the history of mankind...
My men

It still was not the impetus for the creation of the Dream Team...the 88 loss to the Soviet Union in the Olympics was...what made it even more painful, was that an American military man was a part of that 88 basketball team.
That is what you call a slap in the face, that is what you call, a wake up call.
I know that. I never said it was not so. It still doesn't mean YU wasn't even better at that time.


Finally...I think you guys are severely underating the USSR Team on it's own merits...it had plenty of pro players on it....including a big ass Lithuanian that was making a serious push at being considered the greatest basketball player in the World...and he wasn't playing in the NBA.
I know that. I never said it was not so. It still doesn't mean YU wasn't even better at that time.


IT's not that I am ignorant my Slovenian friends...it's that you just don't understand Americans...and even more strangely, you seem completely clueless of half a century heated rivalry between America and the Soviet Union...in virtually every aspect of human endeavor.
Wrong, wrong, wrong! I understand an know all that. But I still think that if you play with Russians for 7th place on WC or 3'th place with Puerto Rico, you are not better than gold and silver medalist at that same competition. It is not fair. And if someone refuse to understand that fact itself he is extremely rude. An if someone can't understand that fact he is ignorant.


Call us arrogant self centered
all you want...just don't call us stupid. And make sure you call the Russians arrogant and self centered while you are doing that....
:wakeup
how many international player do you know and see their play before 1990?

[Extra Stout]

And now I WILL QUOTE MYSELF:

So EXTRA STOUT what is your problem?
I wrote everything YOU ARE SAYING. Do I have to repeat it till I drop dead?
If the USA had lost to anybody other than the USSR, say for example Yugoslavia, it's more likely that the USA just decides that it's better to continue to send college kids and not win as much, than to introduce professionals and violate the so-called "sanctity" of Olympic amateur sports, and that there is no Dream Team until much later, if at all.

Conjuring up the will necessary to make the jump from amateur to professional players required the kind of psychic damage inflicted by a loss to the USSR.

[sendman]

And I'm saying right now? I take the Lithuanians over the Slovenians with their current lineups...


Show me something Slovenia...

I know ya'll are some big tall motherfuckers that drink and play basketball...but I don't think ya'll drink and play basketball as well as the Russians(and their former territories).


When Rasho and Beno get drunk they suck ass the next day...the Lithuanians have proven they can get drunk and still bring it the next day.


Prove it...all I'm sayin.


Edit: I do give Vlade credit for proving you can smoke and play basketball at a good level...but so far he's the aberration. And he's not a Slovene...

Show us something Slovenia. Right now Slomo is the only one showing he's got game.

Man, Slomo is playing with you. Is Lasko the thing he showed you?
Slomo did you good, but it's allways the quiet ones. Ask that MoFo about Viliamovka, Medica or šnops.
Dude, now we are talking real stuff!
:drunk :smokin :fro

[whottt]

:p: :p: :p: Before you declare a war on Slovenia because of two individuals please at least read what I wrote and then call me out.
It must be my damn English again.


I like Slovenians...but that's neither here nor there.

You guys got like 10 players in the NBA...I think Lithuania has 2 or 3 maybe...I don't even recall Slovenia making the Olympics in 04...but Lithuania damn sure did, in fact they hung a loss on our asses.


Biggest thing I see...is you guys are in such a hurry to proclaim your players National Heroes...that ya'll overlook when they slack. They know they can slack and still be National Heroes.


The Russians didn't do that...if Sabonis sucked in a big game he would have been a national disgrace and had to eat piss borcht for a month.

[sendman]

I don't think Slovenia has any oil.
I think you would bomb us, you just can't find us on the map!
:p:

[whottt]

:wakeup
how many international player do you know and see their play before 1990?


I know the ones I needed to know...read some of my older posts...I might shatter your ignorant American stereotype. I can play the Ugly American on command though...and frankly, it's fun.


Anyway...you can read my list of the top 5 in this thread and make your judgement there...please notice, I included some Yugos on my list....and then was asked if I'd ever heard of those same players in the very next post..as I was being called stupid.

[Extra Stout]

I think you would bomb us, you just can't find us on the map!
:p:
We're not smart, but our bombs are!

[sendman]

We're not smart, but our bombs are!
I'm not saying that you are not smart, I'm saying that we are that small!
:p:
As for that bomb smartness...I don't think so. If you throw a bomb on us, you will damage Italy, Austria and Hungary.
Croats are damaged by default, so no worries there. :elephant

[Extra Stout]

I'm not saying that you are not smart, I'm saying that we are that small!
:p:
As for that bomb smartness...I don't think so. If you throw a bomb on us, you will damage Italy, Austria and Hungary.
Croats are damaged by default, so no worries there. :elephant
I don't think Austria or Hungary have any oil either. Italy has olive oil, but Exxon doesn't sell that kind.

[whottt]

The Olympics were all that mattered then. Nobody in the USA cared about the World Championships. They were irrelevant here until 2002, when the NBA put on a marketing blitz as part of its ongoing campaign to globalize the game.

To tell you the truth...I don't think anyone really cared about the Olympics either...until we lost.


Of course it makes sense that your media would put the spin on it to make it sound like the great superpower America was really concerned about little Yugoslavia. But we weren't. And if Yugoslavia really had been on the nation's consciousness, especially after the Iron Curtain fell, the response would not have been ominous fear and loathing, but rather admiration, because Americans love the plucky underdog, which is exactly why the Lithuanian team gained such a following in the 1990's.

While you're right that most of America would have probably admired the Yugos...especially since they themselves were in the process of telling the Soviet Union to go eff itself...

There would still have been some changes...I mean, we didn't admire Argentina's pluckiness as they took our Gold.


But it was losing to the Soviets that called for pulling out all the stops(as in Jordan, Magic, Bird) and not even chancing another loss....

[Extra Stout]

I mean, we didn't admire Argentina's pluckiness as they took our Gold.
I did.

[whottt]

I did.


Do you still?

I personally want to whip Argentinas ass in the next Olympics. I love Manu...but still..losing sucks.

[da_suns_fan__]

Overall accomplishments:

1/ Hakeem (2 NBA titles, several allstar selections, one of the greatest center ever)

2/ Parker (3 NBA titles, 1 MVP Finals, still 25...)

3/ Manu (3 NBA titles, 1 sixth man award.... in process)

4/ Nash (2 times MVP, several allsta selections... a great PG but has never played in the NBA Finals)

5/ Dirk (on time MVP, several allstar selection... he led his team to the NBA finals but...... 2007 Golden State)

6/ Mutombo (several times DPOY, one NBA Finals with the Sixers, one of the greatest defensive player out of Georgetown)

7/ Kukoc (3 NBA titles, 1 sixth man award, a great shooter)

8/ Drazen Petrovic (no all star, no title but possibly the more gifted of all)

9/ Yao Ming (several all star selections, a dominant force in the paint who fails year after year when Playoffs come)

10/ Sabonis (too bad he didn't enter the league during his prime, Jordan or Isiah would have one less ring)

Mother of all homerisms thread.

Tony Parker is an international point guard.

In 2005, 2006, and 2007, an international point guard was named the NBA's most valuable player (the highest individual award for a basketball player) twice and came in second the third time. He became only the second international player to win the award, and the only international player to win it multiple times.

It wasn't Tony Parker.

In 2005, 2006 and 2007 (and probably 2008), an international point guard led the league in assists. Not only was he the first international player to do so, he did it each year by a comfortable margin.

It wasn't Tony Parker.

In 2005, 2006 and 2007 (and probably 2008), an international point guard was named to the All-NBA first team. The first international guard ever to do so.

It wasn't Tony Parker.

In 2001-2007, an international point guard was named an All-Star (once voted in by the fans) five times.

It wasn't Tony Parker.

In 2006, an international player became the fourth player in NBA history to shoot better than 50% from the field, 40% from three-point range (43.9), and 90% from the line, joining Larry Bird, Reggie Miller and Mark Price.

It wasn't Tony Parker.

An international player is currently second on the all time career frew throw percentage list.

It isn't Tony Parker.

Tony Parker played on three championship teams. He was was named the NBA Finals MVP in 2007. He was selected as an All-Star twice.

To this day, Parker's crowning achievement was marrying tv star Eva Longoria.

[diego]

the link kibic gave of the argentina wc, shows yugoslavia losing to puerto rico in the first round... so when exactly was the unbeaten streak from?

also, kept going from there... the olympic leader board up to 92 reads:

US 9 gold 1 silver 1 bronze
ussr 2 gold 4 silver 3 bronze
yugoslavia 1 gold 3 silver 1 bronze

i know yugoslavia has more WC success (though in 86, they came 3rd behind us and ussr), but from the american point of view, ussr was the bigger threat.

[sendman]

I don't think Austria or Hungary have any oil either. Italy has olive oil, but Exxon doesn't sell that kind.
We have some natural gas, maybe you can at least shoot us with a gun? A small one maybe?
:makemyday

[Extra Stout]

We have some natural gas, maybe you can at least shoot us with a gun? A small one maybe?
:makemyday
We can send in some tacky real estate developers to turn Lake Bled into an eyesore. Is that enough?

[Extra Stout]

Do you still?

I personally want to whip Argentinas ass in the next Olympics. I love Manu...but still..losing sucks.
Admiring them doesn't mean I want the USA to keep losing to them.

[whottt]

:wakeup
how many international player do you know and see their play before 1990?


I just found this post...


The point that lead to this argument was never about how good the Yugoslavian team was...it was about what lead to the creation of the Dream Team. Anything else is just you guys imagining an insult when there was none....until there were some :smokin

[sendman]

We can send in some tacky real estate developers to turn Lake Bled into an eyesore. Is that enough?
That would be perfect!
:spin
And while you are at it, can you throw in some no good plastic surgeons? They would make a fortune screwing people over.

[Extra Stout]

That would be perfect!
:spin
And while you are at it, can you throw in some no good plastic surgeons? They would make a fortune screwing people over.
We'll trade you one money-grubbing California plastic surgeon in exchange for each world-class cardiac surgeon you send us.

[sendman]

We'll trade you one money-grubbing California plastic surgeon in exchange for each world-class cardiac surgeon you send us.
But...But we only have one. And we might need him once we buy him some surgical equipment. We all chipped in last year and we bought him a nice shiny saw. Next year we will buy him a set of needles. He will be good to go then and you can have him as a proof of good will (just provide him with some thread). :eyebrows

[whottt]

I got a better idea...you guys send us Slomo...and we'll send you mouse in return...deal?

[whottt]

the link kibic gave of the argentina wc, shows yugoslavia losing to puerto rico in the first round... so when exactly was the unbeaten streak from?

also, kept going from there... the olympic leader board up to 92 reads:

US 9 gold 1 silver 1 bronze
ussr 2 gold 4 silver 3 bronze
yugoslavia 1 gold 3 silver 1 bronze

i know yugoslavia has more WC success (though in 86, they came 3rd behind us and ussr), but from the american point of view, ussr was the bigger threat.



I notice no Slovene wants to get within a hundred miles of this post...

Thanks Diego...


Argentina > Slovenia

[sendman]

I got a better idea...you guys send us Slomo...and we'll send you mouse in return...deal?
Can he drink?
:drunk

[Extra Stout]

But...But we only have one. And we might need him once we buy him some surgical equipment. We all chipped in last year and we bought him a nice shiny saw. Next year we will buy him a set of needles. He will be good to go then and you can have him as a proof of good will (just provide him with some thread). :eyebrows
Sorry... but once you get past 20,000 euros per capita, you can't pretend to be poor anymore. The Irish still try that, and they're wealthier than we are.

[sendman]

I notice no Slovene wants to get within a hundred miles of this post...

Thanks Diego...


Argentina > Slovenia
I don't get it. Did anybody wrote that Slovenia is better than any of this big teams?

Our nation is 16 years old. We have 2.000.000 people. What would satisfy your appetite? How big is SA and how many NBA players are coming from that area?
10 Slovenian NBA players, as you said (it's 5 to be correct), apparently is not enough.

But you know all that, you are just playing with me.


So you are saying Argentina is better than USA and it's not annoying?

[Extra Stout]

I don't get it. Did anybody wrote that Slovenia is better than any of this big teams?

Our nation is 16 years old. We have 2.000.000 people. What would satisfy your appetite? How big is SA and how many NBA players are coming from that area?
10 Slovenian NBA players, as you said (it's 5 to be correct), apparently is not enough.

But you know all that, you are just playing with me.


So you are saying Argentina is better than USA and it's not annoying?
SA does not specialize in NBA players. SA specializes in diabetes patients. It is very good at producing diabetes patients.

[whottt]

Can he drink?
:drunk


Mouse? He drinks his peach brandy with flies in it...

No joke.

[whottt]

I don't get it. Did anybody wrote that Slovenia is better than any of this big teams?

Our nation is 16 years old. We have 2.000.000 people. What would satisfy your appetite? How big is SA and how many NBA players are coming from that area?
10 Slovenian NBA players, as you said (it's 5 to be correct), apparently is not enough.

But you know all that, you are just playing with me.

I'm just saying that Diego kind of debunked your entire point about the Yugoslavian team being the bigger threat.





So you are saying Argentina is better than USA and it's not annoying?

Well...for now at least...Argentina is better than the US in basketball...and yes, it is annoying. Really annoying.

It's wouldn't be a big deal if it was Soccer...but what Argentina did in 04 was the biggest upset in Olympic Baketball History.....even if they were the favorite.

[sendman]

SA does not specialize in NBA players. SA specializes in diabetes patients. It is very good at producing diabetes patients.

Sorry to hear. I'm not even going to try to joke about that.

Anyway, it's well past midnight over here. I'm done with my English practice for today. Must go to sleep, tomorrow I have to get up early, to earn a part of that 20.000 € you were talking about.

[Kibic]

I notice no Slovene wants to get within a hundred miles of this post...

Thanks Diego...


Argentina > Slovenia
Yes I gave a link. And I didn't talk about wining streak. I have just said In late 80's and early 90's YU was even better than USSR. I gave a link to prove that.

And the same was in late 70's an early 80's.

But I never claim that one nation is better forever. There are ups and downs.

And I never claim that wasn't Sabonis and USSR win in 88 who indirectly lead to Dream Team No.1. And the "war" between USA and USSR. I know all about that. Never.
But I still think that in that time YU was even better than USSR. (74-80, 89-91). And if your greatest opponent is USSR, and one can not admit that there is even better team.... What would you like from me to say? I know those things. You never say or prove you know them too?

I ask you about players before 90's...ok you have those 2 in your list but they were playing in 90's too. Who are the idols of all that Lithuanian, Russian, Yugo , Argentina, Brassil late 80's and early 90's players and international stars. You can imagine Sabonis, Kukoc, Petro...at age 10-15. They were all very excited watching EC, WC and Oly. finals, semis, even classification rounds. They have their idols too. And they don't think they have accomplished something better than their idols, given the circumstances their idols live in.

OT. Best international players. One should say "after Dream Team" or "from 88 on"

But it was never "what was the thing which lead to creation of DT No.1?" topic.

I am from Slovenia. Did I mention any Slovene player? Maybe because they don't deserve it to be in this thread.
Slovenija was a part of Yugoslavia, yes.
What do you know about "YU vs USSR" from 1948 to 1980? Do you think that this was anything smaller thing in Yugoslavia citizens eyes than "USSR vs USA" in your eyes? :)
If you read all what I was saying, I don't think Slomo is on your side in this one. OT of coarse.

[AnotherArgie]

The greatest: Sabonis.

I'll talk about Manu, TP and Dirk when they retire.

[slayermin]

I remember that Soviet team from '88. They had their big three in Sabonis, Marciulionis, and Volkov. They were damn good. But of course, they were pros.

Anyone remember watching Oscar Schmidt? I remember watching a tournament that he absolutely dominated. I always wondered why he never made it to the NBA.

[sendman]

I remember that Soviet team from '88. They had their big three in Sabonis, Marciulionis, and Volkov. They were damn good. But of course, they were pros.

Anyone remember watching Oscar Schmidt? I remember watching a tournament that he absolutely dominated. I always wondered why he never made it to the NBA.
Oscar Schmidt is a LEGEND! There is not many people that could do what he did back then.

[slayermin]

Oscar Schmidt is a LEGEND! There is not many people that could do what he did back then.

I remember he had incredible range on his jump shot.

[ArgSpursFan.]

I personally want to whip Argentinas ass in the next Olympics. I love Manu...but still..losing sucks.

Not an easy task boy.
Not easy at all.

[urunobili]

Not an easy task boy.
Not easy at all.
i think for both ARG and USA the tough task will be getting rid of Spain first... don;tget me wrong.. i am a golden generation homie but... Spain is the only team that has their number...

[sendman]

Not an easy task boy.
Not easy at all.
I hate to break it to you, but I have a feeling that your team is past their expiration date. Wolkowyski, Sanchez and Prigoni are on their last legs. Manu, Oberto, Delfino and Scola are "fat" (I mean that they don't have to prove nothing to nobody). They already are Olympic champions.
This Argentinian team has all the tools needed, but I seriously doubt they still have that desire. The same story happened to the last World champions, Greeks. They looked really "old" and washed up in this years European championships. I hope I am wrong, because there isn't many teams that can give USA some trouble in winning their Olympic gold. I only see Argentina, Spain and maybe Lithuania with some crazy day. And we all know what is the real question in any games for the rest of the world. Can anybody surprise USA?

[ArgSpursFan.]

i think for both ARG and USA the tough task will be getting rid of Spain first... don;tget me wrong.. i am a golden generation homie but... Spain is the only team that has their number...

true Spain has a great team. And they are the actual world Champs.(Chapu missed a wide open shot from the corner in the last sec vs. Spain in the semis.)
But I got the feeling Beijim will be a total diferent deal though.
Manu is having right now his best NBA season,even better tham 2004/2005 when we won the gold medal in Athems.
Oberto is also having his best NBA season as well.
Delfino finally got some playing time by being traded to the Raps,and he been playing great for the last 5 or 6 games.
Chapu is being the only one stepping up for the bulls this year.
And Scola finally got a chance to play at the best BB level,and He's getting used to play with real big men.
Same for Herrmann,He showed that when given minutes he can put some big numbers.

We'll see what happens,to me the Beijim Arg team will be in better shape tham the 2006 world championship team.

[ArgSpursFan.]

QUOTE=sendman]They already are Olympic champions.
maybe USA has the best players individually.
But we'll see who's got the best TEAM.




Can anybody surprise USA?
yes,Spain and Argentina are very capable to beat USA team under FIBA rules.

[diego]

oscar schmidt said many times, that he didnt have nba athleticism, and would not go to be a bench warming, 5 mpg type of guy. some euro pro teammates told him about their nba experiences and he concluded no one would pass to him and he'd barely play 10 min. for a guy used to being the #1 option, that was no good. he still got offers particularly after he upset a US junior team and torched them for 40-some points (i think drob was on that team). i guess he knew his limitations!

anyways oscar had a long career and supposedly scored something ridiculous, i cant remember the numbers but supposedly almost twice than kareem abdul jabbar (outside the nba, of course).

[diego]

oh, and whottt was right, kibic is totally ignoring my responses, and being quite rude in my humble opinion. kibic accuses of whottt of being disrespectful, when he has done nothing but attack the american team and its fans. since when is beating the US junior and collegiate teams a great success?? why do you take "great shit" when you do? why is it that team accomplishments dont matter comparing players, but if parker's france loses to a slovenia B team it means he is a bad player? anyways, carry on ignoring me

[ArgSpursFan.]

oscar schmidt said many times, that he didnt have nba athleticism, and would not go to be a bench warming, 5 mpg type of guy. some euro pro teammates told him about their nba experiences and he concluded no one would pass to him and he'd barely play 10 min. for a guy used to being the #1 option, that was no good. he still got offers particularly after he upset a US junior team and torched them for 40-some points (i think drob was on that team). i guess he knew his limitations!

anyways oscar had a long career and supposedly scored something ridiculous, i cant remember the numbers but supposedly almost twice than kareem abdul jabbar (outside the nba, of course).

Oscar was one of my fabs FIBA players back in the 80's and 90's. He had probably the best fiba range of all times.
High BBIQ and ball handling,but poor D. and athletisism, and that would've killed him in the NBA.

[urunobili]

true Spain has a great team. And they are the actual world Champs.(Chapu missed a wide open shot from the corner in the last sec vs. Spain in the semis.)
But I got the feeling Beijim will be a total diferent deal though.
Manu is having right now his best NBA season,even better tham 2004/2005 when we won the gold medal in Athems.
Oberto is also having his best NBA season as well.
Delfino finally got some playing time by being traded to the Raps,and he been playing great for the last 5 or 6 games.
Chapu is being the only one stepping up for the bulls this year.
And Scola finally got a chance to play at the best BB level,and He's getting used to play with real big men.
Same for Herrmann,He showed that when given minutes he can put some big numbers.

We'll see what happens,to me the Beijim Arg team will be in better shape tham the 2006 world championship team.
tell me about it... i couldn't believe the open shot he missed... i cryied as i wanted them to have won it all... the ONLY team in history to have been in semi finals of the last three important bkb FIBA international championships... and i HATE the Spaniards more since then... (never liked their cocky attitude and their coach is a prick).. it will all depend on the desire they have come money time against them (both USA and SPA)... i am SUPER sure they won;t underestimate them this time... and they'll get the whole treatment... the match they lost for the 3rd position in the world cup counts even less than the final lost in lats america's championship... Manu was really pissed they have to play the following day in the morning.. got in foul trouble early.. and actually the game was tied at halftime... then we ran out of legs...

[Kibic]

oh, and whottt was right, kibic is totally ignoring my responses, and being quite rude in my humble opinion. kibic accuses of whottt of being disrespectful, when he has done nothing but attack the american team and its fans. since when is beating the US junior and collegiate teams a great success?? why do you take "great shit" when you do? why is it that team accomplishments dont matter comparing players, but if parker's france loses to a slovenia B team it means he is a bad player? anyways, carry on ignoring me
I am really sorry. You have must misunderstood me. I have never attack USA team and their fans. Maybe I wrote something wrong. I think that DT No.1 is the greatest team ever.

All other is just speculations of coarse.

[Kibic]

oh, and whottt was right, kibic is totally ignoring my responses, and being quite rude in my humble opinion. kibic accuses of whottt of being disrespectful, when he has done nothing but attack the american team and its fans. since when is beating the US junior and collegiate teams a great success?? why do you take "great shit" when you do? why is it that team accomplishments dont matter comparing players, but if parker's france loses to a slovenia B team it means he is a bad player? anyways, carry on ignoring me
About accomplishments. I'll give you one example why I think they doesn't count so much in this category of players.

We have one Oscar Schmidt, Drazen Petrovic, Sabonis…who were all great players in their time. They never accomplished anything in NBA of course. Then we have Beno Udrih who has 2 rings. We even have a lot of great NBA players never won NBA title. When Drazen came in NBA as a great European Superstar he first has to sit down for 2 seasons. Portland has Drexler and Porter on his position already. Drexler himself say Drazen can play from first minute big minutes if talent, competiveness were in question. Porter was so scare of losing his position he played ill and injured. On trainings he gives them both big troubles. How can we compare his position and accomplishments with today’s Gasol, Parker, Calderon and others? Just wouldn't be fair.

But with international players we have a great opportunity to compare them in international competitions when they play against each other. These day's players.
We can directly compare Parker Tony with Dragic as they play this summer. TP is much, much better. (But when it counts…he missed his FT). But I can't even imagine comparing Drazen Petrovic with this generation of Slovenian players. It is ridiculous. Even if we maybe could? So these great gaps happened where marketing came in game.

We are exposed to NBA great marketing machine all over the year. All those dunks, expectations, great blocks, 40pts, 45 pts…great series in playoffs…internet, magazines TV, forums…10 best dunks, 10 best blocks, 10 best buzzer shots …best 100 seconds from 100 hours of play….big contracts..10 mil. $ Per year… Marketing did his job really well...Man…It seems those players are so good, so good they can't even be compared to someone from Euroleague who American fan can hardly ever seen. But then..What?

Then comes Olympics or WC. Big paradox happened. Those players who everyone on EART can see their plays all over the year have to play against some players they have never saw them before. Marketing did the damage on TD, James, Boozer, Iverson, Mel o…(not as much on Manu or TP, they know quite well what to expect…)

Qualifying round…saluting after each dunk… It is really nice patriotic thing to do. But it shows little respect for opponent. Great motivation action…for opponents of course. And then eventually come a game where you a little underestimate your opponent, not you best shooting day..And a great day of your opponent. On these tournaments you have 5 to 6 teams who will really surprise you with their skills, especially if they have a great form that day. Not to lose even one of these 4 to 5 games is really something special. Every 4 years!!! You lose it. And someone else gets GOLD. No meter who. They all play against you with great respect. But you can't motivate you if you are ignorant about their skills! They know everything about you. They at firs even think that Le Bron will dunk on every possession. They think that will be good if they lose with margin lesser than 30-20.

Of course this was in 1992. Today it is 2007. International teams know there is no gap any more. USA team has their brain washed every year...Remember NBA marketing?
Make no mistake. I don't say there is better team than USA. But …take into account all written above. Last 3 times they think they take into account everything needed. We all know how it ended.

Of course an ARG fan knows a lot of excellent players from Latin America I never heard of them. This is where I am ignorant about. I admit. I only know recent players because I saw most of them only play at OG and WC. European players I can see in Euroleague and EC. So we will always praise those we saw play and saw their greatness.
The same is for Spain fans, Greek fans….

I have no intent to be rude or insulting when I say to man that he is ignorant about all international players. I just assume he knows today’s int. players from NBA. And he knows very little about all others who have never played in NBA. And they maybe never have so great teammates that their great skills can be seen. From where I come we say »My grandmother can give great assists to Tim Duncan. But can she do the same to Vaugn?«

[polandprzem]

When you accomplish something as a leading man it's much more indication of a greatness then a 12th guy on the roster winning 6 rings.

Sabas, petro they were main guys who were leading teams.

And the marketing did a demage or did not. It's how you look at it. You've got many aspects of a game and yopu choose what is more important. If you want to take away the marjeting you are doing so.

To the olympics and the international.
Well in 1992 it was a matter of a athleticism more then anything. The Europe was more about fundamentals and technic then the phisical aspect (esp. the power).

[Kibic]

OT.
In 1992 no team was even close to DT No.1. Croatia have 3 or 4 who wouldn't look really bad if they would play with DT no.1. On positions from 6 to 12.

Other teams have 1 or 2 maybe. DT No.1 was as I said a set of best USA players of 2,5 generations.

[diego]

About accomplishments. I'll give you one example why I think they doesn't count so much in this category of players.

We have one Oscar Schmidt, Drazen Petrovic, Sabonis…who were all great players in their time. They never accomplished anything in NBA of course. Then we have Beno Udrih who has 2 rings .... How can we compare his position and accomplishments with today’s Gasol, Parker, Calderon and others? Just wouldn't be fair.

Yes, I understand this point completely, although it must be said, beno udrih also had a career in europe, quite successfull for his age, and is now showing he can be a rotation player in the NBA. he also shows that he is not a fiery competitor and im sure if drazen was asked to be 3rd sg for a champ team he would have left. so still, drazen > beno. now, compare with say gasol, who led his national team to WC over powerhouse teams, and is the franchise player of a decent nba team- i think it is safe to say gasol = drazen. but drazen was more competitive and, a better specialist (shooting). Sabonis did not have accomplishments in the NBA, but even in old age, with bad health, was a very good role player for a good blazers team. he also had club and national team success outside the NBA and a historic win over a US collegiate team. sabonis > drazen. manu has had success everywhere he plays, is the spurs closer in a 3 of 5 title run, and was the protagonist of 2 historic upsets, in indiana and athens. also, manu is more well rounded player with better athleticism. manu > drazen. now, drazen > oscar, because oscar never even tried to compete in NBA. I understand this is unfair to drazen because his life and career were tragically cut short. but from what i know, those are the opinions i make, and if accomplishments dont matter, then street ballers are the best players on earth because they do fancy tricks. Drazen's most important achievemnt is not scoring 112 pts in a yugoslavian league game, but breaking the boundary for international players, you could say he is the jackie robinson of international bball.


But with international players we have a great opportunity to compare them in international competitions when they play against each other. These day's players.
We can directly compare Parker Tony with Dragic as they play this summer. TP is much, much better. (But when it counts…he missed his FT). But I can't even imagine comparing Drazen Petrovic with this generation of Slovenian players. It is ridiculous. Even if we maybe could? So these great gaps happened where marketing came in game.

more than marketing, it is a problem of generations- who and what you see most, and the change in style/quality of play. 20 years ago, european basketball was not as developed as today- less leagues, less players, less quality. but we dont notice it because we see it all the time. like sendman said, it is impossible to objectively say one is better than another because of these differences, but we go with preference and opinion. i'm not very familiar with the current slovenian team but i'll take your word there is no one as good as drazen. but, to make an example, and note i've been very critical of leandro barbosa, leandro barbosa doesnt have half the accomplishments of oscar schmidt, and his ball iq is not as good. but he is 10x the athlete, and has become a good role player for an NBA team. for now, oscar > leandro. but leandro has a chance to be > oscar, even if he doesnt score more points, because he is competing on a higher level.


From where I come we say »My grandmother can give great assists to Tim Duncan. But can she do the same to Vaugn?«

yes we have a similar saying. thats why i found it rude for you to say :
Not to mention, Yugo give a great shit on spanking USA. It was a pleasure every and each time. We know how important it is. when it was not even close to the best US team of the time (and not because it was poorly chosen team, but because they had rules to limit what players could go).

[diego]

sorry, i was going to add, that i understand whottt is a master of provocation and that is probably why you were rude. still, you should learn not to take him too seriously

[Kibic]

We didn't go in doping and steroids in NBA. While all other teams are doping tested in Olympics, American professionals are not.

What is the big difference between USA team that Sabonis have won and Drazen and Yugo have won?

[Kibic]

And now there is are no limit who can play. Look at the rosters of last USA teams.
indianapolis 2002 http://www.usabasketball.com/history/mwc_2002.html
japan 2006 http://www.usabasketball.com/history/mwc_2006.html
greece 2004 http://www.usabasketball.com/seniormen/2004/04_moly_schedule.html

You can't go to a tournament saying we will win, we chose our best players who are wiling to compete for our nation...salute after every dunk in preliminary round....then finished 6th, 3rd...and then said "we don't really give a shit, because Russians are even worse".
:lol

[diego]

see doping and steriods, without proof, is just stupid to bring that up. its not like IOC officials are clean and they're drug tests trustworthy.

there is no difference, i did not say there was, i said it was rude to be arrogant "great shit on spanking USA" when they were playing against a collegiate team. sabonis nor russians made this comment that is why i called it what it is, a upset. its one thing to be proud, another to be rude. i say sabonis > drazen, because great centers are less common, because sabonis victory against USA was against a great center (drob), and because sabonis also had a pretty good nba career. drazen, if not for the accident, could have been more, but from what he played, i must say he was a very good guard, but there are many good guardss all over the world.

and i agree, now that the US selects whatever players they want, it is their responsibility to put their best team, not ours.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Just give it up diego. He's not going to be satisfied until everybody says Drazen was the best guard to ever live... :rolleyes

[ArgSpursFan.]

Manu>Petrovic
I used to love watching play Darzen in Real Madrid and in the NBA as well,but Manu has taken it to a higher level.

[whottt]

Um...if you test NBA players for dope, you will find plenty...but it won't be steroids. Steroids are more useless in basketball than any other sport.

[senorglory]

Detlef Schrempf. Hands down. End of discussion.

[senorglory]

Detlef Schrempf. Hands down. End of discussion.

Manute Bol. Hands down. End of discussion.

[senorglory]

Manute Bol. Hands down. End of discussion.

Sharunas Marchulionis or Rony Seikaly. Hands down. End of discussion.

[senorglory]

Check out the wikipedia entry for international players:
here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Basketball_Association_players_by _country)

:elephant

[senorglory]

Apparently, Dominique Wilkins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominique_Wilkins) was born in Paris. 'Nique should make the list.

[LEN BIAS 4EVER]

What is the big difference between USA team that Sabonis have won and Drazen and Yugo have won?

What Yugo team specifically are you speaking of ?

Is it the 1990 World Championship team ??

If that is the team you are comparing to the 1988 Russian olympic team that won the gold then yes there is a difference in their accomplishments. The 1988 USA olympic team had college players who had just been drafted and about to be pro were as the 1990 world championship team did not have any of the college players who had just been drafted. So the team USA that Drazen beat was not at full strength, team usa did not have Derrick Coleman, Gary Payton and Dennis Scott who would have been playing if it was the olympics.

I have to say then that beating the 1988 USA olympic team is a better accomplishment than beating the 1990 USA world championships team.

[whottt]

diego...I do my share of provoking...but in this case, all I did was rank Sabonis as the best International player ever and say he indirectly lead to the creation of the Dream Team...Correcly IMO, because without him, the Soviets would not have beaten us in 88(they barely beat us with him and we were missing 2 key players)...and all of sudden I incurred the wrath of Slovenia...clueless, American Ignorance...

I was innocent on this one...and I'm still right.

They are outraged that we didn't percieve them as a threat to our basketball dominance or something...but our basketball dominance was ended by the Soviets. Add the ideological differences and ColdWar propaganda....you know, every victory by one country over the other was viewed by the leaders of those countries as a victory for their way of life...of course it was the Soviets that caused it...Ronald Reagan was the President at that time....and basketball was our game.

The other thing is...it wasn't all up to the USA...FIBA wouldn't let America use NBA players but other countries were using their pros....that rule was no longer fair after their pros beat our college kids in the Olympics...again, the Soviets did that. We had lost many WC's without that rule being changed.

Anyway....this whole argument was about Slovenian/Yugo grief/frustration that their great team was denied it's moment in time...and had nothing to do with any provocation by me. Hell I actually think Sabonis is over-rated...but nontheless...without him the Dream Team would not have happened and he does rate as the best International developed player ever IMO.

America was always losing the World Championships and were never really dominant in them...it was the Olympics where we dominated. Losing WC's had nothing to do with the Dream Team...it was 100% the Olympics.

We didn't really start dominating the WC's till after the Dream Team era began.


But anyway...nice job :D

[whottt]

Here's a list of the FIBA World Champions:

Team Gold Silver Bronze Fourth-place
USA 3 (1954, 1986, 1994)
Yugoslavia# 3 (1970*, 1978, 1990)
Soviet Union# 3 (1967, 1974, 1982)
Brazil 2 (1959, 1963*)
Serbia^ 2 (1998, 2002)
Argentina 1 (1950*)
Spain 1 (2006)



America has won 3 of them total, since 1950.

The 86 win was the first time we had won the FIBA World Championship in 30 years.


Now that I look at it...we didn't care about the WC after the Dream Era began. We only won one of them.


The World Championships had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the creation of the Dream Team....if it mattered, the Dream Team would have been instituted at some point in our 30 year drought from winning it.



Sorry Slovenes...you're wrong.

[polandprzem]

Um...if you test NBA players for dope, you will find plenty...but it won't be steroids. Steroids are more useless in basketball than any other sport.

Nice joke

[sendman]

Here's a list of the FIBA World Champions:

Team Gold Silver Bronze Fourth-place
USA 3 (1954, 1986, 1994)
Yugoslavia# 3 (1970*, 1978, 1990)
Soviet Union# 3 (1967, 1974, 1982)
Brazil 2 (1959, 1963*)
Serbia^ 2 (1998, 2002)
Argentina 1 (1950*)
Spain 1 (2006)



America has won 3 of them total, since 1950.

The 86 win was the first time we had won the FIBA World Championship in 30 years.


Now that I look at it...we didn't care about the WC after the Dream Era began. We only won one of them.


The World Championships had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the creation of the Dream Team....if it mattered, the Dream Team would have been instituted at some point in our 30 year drought from winning it.



Sorry Slovenes...you're wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIBA_World_Championship#Summaries

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao
Sorry Whottt...but I must say YOU ARE FULL OF IT!

So you don't care?! Why are you sending top tier pros to this shitty tournaments then? Since 1990 every single team (except 1998) you sent was full of "stars".
You even had a need to organize one of this tournaments that nobody cares about. I understand that you have to downplay the importance of this Championships. Your team got punke'd regularly so there was nothing to brag about. I dare you to check out rosters of USA teams and then tell me that you sent nobodies. Olympic team (you said that you care about those) that you sent to Athens was no different (talent wise) than any of these sent to WC's.
To help you out, here is the link that will help you check out team USA WC rosters since the beginning:
http://www.usabasketball.com/history/mwc_2002.html

But I'm sure that we'll be witnesses to some major fact screwing just to prove your point. Enjoy.

[Extra Stout]

Um...if you test NBA players for dope, you will find plenty...but it won't be steroids. Steroids are more useless in basketball than any other sport.
There are plenty of performance-enhancing drugs out there besides steroids.

[Kibic]

Again. Look Whott, I never claim anything about which defeat leads to DT No.1. It is not this topic.
I don't care about it.

But I steel think (it is evidently) 89-91 Yugo team was better then USSR. The same for 74-80.

So I was not wrong and still am not.

And I was really nice to you. I am still. I don't even tell you what is called not to know who is you real opponent.

Who were the boys who played against DT in 92 finals, Russians ? :wakeup

[cherylsteele]

I know he had a short career which was tragically cut short, but I thought Drazen Petrovic could been one of the great international players.

[whottt]

There are plenty of performance-enhancing drugs out there besides steroids.



I've never heard of weed being described as performance enhancing...you do a test on the avg NBA player...that's the drug you are going to find.

[mavs>spurs2]

Stupid thread, Hakeem in a landslide

This really isn't even an issue

[SpurYank]

Hakeem, Nash, and Duncan, are only American players. That I know of, they never played "internationally." Now Tony, Manu, and Dirk (I think) did. So it's between these last three. It's Manu hands down.

[SpurYank]

Now, if you are talking about being foreign born, that's a completely different category. Base on accomplishments, championships, etc, it's Timmy.

[Hemotivo]

Manu and Scola

[Kibic]

1. Manu (skills to, not just accomplishments)

[100%duncan]

Hakeem, Nash, and Duncan, are only American players. That I know of, they never played "internationally." Now Tony, Manu, and Dirk (I think) did. So it's between these last three. It's Manu hands down.
being an international player isn't really about if you played in the euroleague or other leagues but it is all abou being from another country than America.FOR ME THE GREATEST INTERNATIONAL AND NBA PLAYER TODAY IS TIM DUNCAN AND IF ANYONE DOES NOT NOW THAT,THEIR BORN YESTERDAY! :lol

[100%duncan]

Stupid thread, Hakeem in a landslide

This really isn't even an issue
STUPID?WHY WOULD YOU EVEN JOIN THIS THREAD IF IT'S STUPID? :dizzy MAVS FANS WHO JOINED THIS THREAD ARE STUPID!