Finley struggling...time to start Barry? [Archive]

AFBlue

12-02-2007, 06:12 PM

I know this will probably show up in the "game thoughts" thread, but it is a pattern that has stretched over multiple games.

For whatever reason, Finley has lost complete confidence in his shot from everywhere on the court. And that's not good, when your best (some would say "only") attribute is shooting.

Barry, conversely, has been on fire from behind the arc and in general. He is familiar with the offense and while he's still not a great defender, he has improved in that regard.

So it bares the question...should the Spurs start Barry and make Finley battle for backup G/F minutes with Udoka?

IMO, I think it's time for just that....

Dingle Barry

12-02-2007, 06:15 PM

Agree 100%

easjer

12-02-2007, 06:17 PM

No. I've seen enough arguments to convince me that it's not a good idea.

Whottt, of all people, convinced me with his thoughts on this in the Minnesota game thread. Basically boils down to Barry playing well where he is and providing extra oomph off the bench and not needing the wear and tear of starting.

I think I'm ok with leaving Fin in as a starter, but I wish that Barry (or Udoka) coming in a little sooner if he's not hitting.

But I don't think you want to make any confidence issues worse by pulling him for not making it - that will not help at all, I think.

itzsoweezee

12-02-2007, 06:18 PM

with duncan out, barry should be starting along with finley.

AFBlue

12-02-2007, 06:24 PM

But I don't think you want to make any confidence issues worse by pulling him for not making it - that will not help at all, I think.

I thought about how sitting him would affect his confidence, but at some point you just have to put the best squad on the floor and commit to winning despite the struggles of one player.

I would tend to agree with you if the Spurs didn't have other options, but in fact they do. One option playing considerably better (Barry) and another at least deserving of the opportunity to play more than garbage minutes in blowouts.

easjer

12-02-2007, 06:27 PM

I thought about how sitting him would affect his confidence, but at some point you just have to put the best squad on the floor and commit to winning despite the struggles of one player.

I would tend to agree with you if the Spurs didn't have other options, but in fact they do. One option playing considerably better (Barry) and another at least deserving of the opportunity to play more than garbage minutes in blowouts.

I agree, but I don't think early December is the cut off point. I also don't think you have to start Barry to put the best squad out (well, it might not hurt while Duncan is out, but not as a long term solution).

I do think that some of Fin's minutes can be sacrificed to Barry and/or Udoka if he's sucking though.

Walter Craparita

12-02-2007, 06:34 PM

I don't care who "starts" but Barry > Finley.

AFBlue

12-02-2007, 06:38 PM

My main thought for keeping him in the starting rotation is somewhat counterintuitive...

If a guy is struggling, what better way to hide his struggles than to put him out on the court with two of your three best players. Take the pressure off of him and let him and let him work through his issues when his scoring is not necessarily needed.

However, I would play Udoka with the second unit guys and bring Finley in when two of the big 3 are on the court.

Regardless, I really think Pop needs to open up the rotation and give Udoka a shot to prove he can be a regular contributor to this team sooner rather than later.

Mr.Bottomtooth

12-02-2007, 06:47 PM

Barry>Finley

easjer

12-02-2007, 06:52 PM

Regardless, I really think Pop needs to open up the rotation and give Udoka a shot to prove he can be a regular contributor to this team sooner rather than later.

Agreed.

loveforthegame

12-02-2007, 08:06 PM

If Barry starts where is the scoring going to come from off the bench besides Ginobli? At this point Barry deserves the shot to start but Finley won't bring the scoring off the bench nor the energy Barry's been bringing.

SouthernFried

12-02-2007, 08:54 PM

Barry has gotten real good at coming off the bench and contributing.

Finley coming off the bench? Man, I just dunno.

wildbill2u

12-02-2007, 10:06 PM

at this point Finley is not contributing. Find someone off the bench who will. I've been thinking about Barry starting for several games and I'm down with it.

AFBlue

12-02-2007, 10:23 PM

Barry has gotten real good at coming off the bench and contributing.

Finley coming off the bench? Man, I just dunno.

Barry has gotten good at letting the offense come to him and not forcing up shots out of the flow of the game.

I think with his attitude, it doesn't matter whether he starts or comes off the bench.

It's Finley that you have to worry about. And I understand the calls for patience and the concerns about further damaging his psyche if the starting job is taken away....but at some point you have to say that he's hurting this team more than he's helping it with his 10-12 wasted possesions a night.

Maybe Easjer is right that he doesn't necessarily have to be deprived of "starting", but that Pop bring Barry off the bench sooner and give Udoka a chance to earn some of the minutes that might otherwise go to Finley.

Bottom Line: If Finley HAS to start, make him a "starter" only in name and make him earn his minutes through competition with Barry & Udoka.

I still hold firm that the Spurs cannot keep the status quo and must give opportunity to the other capable players.

whottt

12-02-2007, 10:41 PM

If anything you move Manu to the starting rotation where he belongs...you know Manu is not going to struggle. Barry might, and he's at the age now where his minutes need to be monitored...I wouldn't move him the way he is playing right now. Plus, Manu is pretty much a starter anyway.

I just don't know what result you are aiming for by jacking with the rotation...

AFBlue

12-02-2007, 10:52 PM

I just don't know what result you are aiming for by jacking with the rotation...

Making Finley accountable for his poor play on the offensive end.

I've read the articles, as I'm sure so have you, about how Finley is his toughest critic and so on...but it's clear that something is wrong and it needs to be fixed external to Finley's self-motivation.

Moving him to the bench and/or giving some of his minutes to Udoka will make him work to earn his minutes on the court. Finley is a clutch guy that doesn't shy away from competition. I'm confident that he would step up, play well, and reassert himself as a rotation regular and "starter".

Bottom Line: If Pop keeps giving Finley the go-ahead to shoot at will and is not limiting his minutes or role it is to the detriment of this team and at some point it will come back to bite them. Something needs to be done.

whottt

12-02-2007, 10:53 PM

Yeah but he starts over Barry because he plays better D....

Pop will never go against that mindset...and after 4 titles...I'm sold.

T Park

12-02-2007, 11:06 PM

Bottom Line: If Pop keeps giving Finley the go-ahead to shoot at will and is not limiting his minutes or role it is to the detriment of this team and at some point it will come back to bite them. Something needs to be done

So in other words, you know more than Pop.

Got it.

AFBlue

12-02-2007, 11:10 PM

Yeah but he starts over Barry because he plays better D....

Pop will never go against that mindset...and after 4 titles...I'm sold.

So you're on record as saying Barry won't ever start if Finley is availabe then?

You're also on record as saying the Spurs staff won't do anything to mix it up with regards to Finley?

We'll see....

And regardless of what they WILL do, this was a thought on what they SHOULD do. Finley is in a BAD slump, Barry is playing well, and Udoka is just sitting there waiting for more than garbage minutes to prove he can play.

The Spurs SHOULD consider reducing Finley's role and minutes...that's my point.

THE SIXTH MAN

12-02-2007, 11:10 PM

Yeah but he starts over Barry because he plays better D....

Exactly! He may be in a pretty bad slump offensively. But on the defensive end he's doing a pretty decent job. And in pops mind defense > offense.

THE SIXTH MAN

12-02-2007, 11:12 PM

IMO, if it ain't broke don't break it. At 15-3 there shouldn't be a need to tinker with the rotations.

AFBlue

12-02-2007, 11:14 PM

So in other words, you know more than Pop.

Got it.

:rolleyes

If nothing changes with regard to roles or minutes played and Finley gets out of this extended slump with a significant hot streak...I'll start an apology thread.

Does that suffice?

BTW, Pop is not immune to making poor decisions or sticking with veterans far past their effective use....just thought I'd throw out that little tidbit as a side note.

Capt Bringdown

12-02-2007, 11:15 PM

We need production from that position in order to repeat. Right now I don't feel very comfortable betting the farm on Finley.

He was a valuable contributor in last year's run. Does he have anything left? I hope so, but he has a tendency to fall into terrible slumps. We really can't afford that, and we should explore other options.

After all, isn't Pop the "no guaranteed minutes" guy?

TDMVPDPOY

12-02-2007, 11:18 PM

i say we trade him seriously....

he got what he wanted, now time to moved on..

THE SIXTH MAN

12-02-2007, 11:21 PM

WTF? :lol

Seriously, I know Finley is sucking ass right now. But those 3 losses weren't due to Finley's play or lack there of.

AFBlue

12-02-2007, 11:22 PM

Exactly! He may be in a pretty bad slump offensively. But on the defensive end he's doing a pretty decent job. And in pops mind defense > offense.

A "pretty decent job" doesn't make up for how horrible he has been on the offensive side of the ball.

Bowen could get away with that excuse because he does better than a "pretty decent job" on defense and that's his role.

Unfortunately, Finley's primary role is not to be a lockdown defender, but instead to knock down shots...both wide open or contested. And in his primary role he's been downright awful.

BTW, there's this other guy who is said to be a pretty good defender....his name is Ime Udoka. If he were given an opportunity to hit those wide open jumpshots, maybe he might be the better option...

But we'll never know if no changes are made.

AFBlue

12-02-2007, 11:29 PM

IMO, if it ain't broke don't break it. At 15-3 there shouldn't be a need to tinker with the rotations.

True, the Spurs are off to one of their best starts in franchise history. It's hard to make the argument that a change HAS to be made...

BUT, why would you not want the Spurs to make a change that could put the best team on the floor?

Is giving Barry the start or more minutes to Udoka the answer(s)? I'm not sure, but unless either is given the opportunity those questions will remain unanswered.

WTF? :lol

Seriously, I know Finley is sucking ass right now. But those 3 losses weren't due to Finley's play or lack there of.

Tough to see how Finley contributed POSITIVELY in those losses....

3-8, 0-6, & 3-11

THE SIXTH MAN

12-02-2007, 11:32 PM

A "pretty decent job" doesn't make up for how horrible he has been on the offensive side of the ball.

Bowen could get away with that excuse because he does better than a "pretty decent job" on defense and that's his role.

Unfortunately, Finley's primary role is not to be a lockdown defender, but instead to knock down shots...both wide open or contested. And in his primary role he's been downright awful.

BTW, there's this other guy who is said to be a pretty good defender....his name is Ime Udoka. If he were given an opportunity to hit those wide open jumpshots, maybe he might be the better option...

But we'll never know if no changes are made.

Well there you go. Finley is a role player. If he was options 1,2,and or 3 then we'd be in a world of trouble. But fact is he's not. We have enough fire power to get us W's and we don't rely on Fin to carry the offensive load either. As is the case with Bowen there are no stats that I can throw out there to prove his worth on defense. But Spurs defense is based on rotations and help. Pretty complex defensive schemes mind you. And as much as Ime has the tools, pop wont play him if he can't get the rotations right. Finley on the other hand knows these schemes.

whottt

12-02-2007, 11:32 PM

So you're on record as saying Barry won't ever start if Finley is availabe then?

You're also on record as saying the Spurs staff won't do anything to mix it up with regards to Finley?

We'll see....

And regardless of what they WILL do, this was a thought on what they SHOULD do. Finley is in a BAD slump, Barry is playing well, and Udoka is just sitting there waiting for more than garbage minutes to prove he can play.

The Spurs SHOULD consider reducing Finley's role and minutes...that's my point.

Well the main reason they wouldn't reduce his minutes right now is because there offense isn't hurting, in fact it's looking to be one of the best offensive seasons of the Duncan era...Pop won't usually sacrifice defense for offense when the offense sucks...he's really not going to want to do it when the offense doesn't suck.

Additionally...Finley sucked all of last season and eventually was beaten out of the rotation by Barry more or less...but the second he picked up he was back in the rotation ahead of Barry...Finley's not sucking as badly this season as he did last season, so I think Pop is going to give him a while to shoot his way out of it.

I really don't see the need for a change right now...if the Spurs hit a bump, then you'll see some changes.

And one final point...the Spurs bench is why they are kicking everyone's butt right now...if they don't have the best bench(higthest scoring) in the league...they are close to it...they are literally rolling the second units of teams...you move Barry and you move arguably the second best bench player after Manu...add in the fact that the reason the bench is so dominant is because of the ball movement, and Barry is excellent at ballmovement...

It just seems you be hurting the bench and the defense more than you'd be helping the offense or the starting rotation....

I just don't see what you are hoping to gain by making changes. The Spurs offense is kicking butt....

AFBlue

12-02-2007, 11:33 PM

i say we trade him seriously....

he got what he wanted, now time to moved on..

The way he's shooting right now, I don't think you could pay someone to take him...

And besides, I'm not saying that Finley is "done". I'm just saying I think something needs to be done external to his self-motivation in order to get him back on track.

I still think Finley has value for this ballclub, but he doesn't have it while he's playing this poorly....and there are others that could step up in his place if given the opportunity.

It is an interesting point you bring up about Fin getting his ring though....

Something tells me there is a mutual seperation at the end of this year.

AFBlue

12-02-2007, 11:40 PM

Well there you go. Finley is a role player. If he was options 1,2,and or 3 then we'd be in a world of trouble. But fact is he's not. We have enough fire power to get us W's and we don't rely on Fin to carry the offensive load either. As is the case with Bowen there are no stats that I can throw out there to prove his worth on defense. But Spurs defense is based on rotations and help. Pretty complex defensive schemes mind you. And as much as Ime has the tools, pop wont play him if he can't get the rotations right. Finley on the other hand knows these schemes.

That argument sort of works against you....

As you pointed out, Finley is a role player.

Role players, by definition, are susceptible to "swap out" in case there are matchup issues or in case one of them is not playing very well.

And last time I checked, the big 3 don't account for 100% of the point total each game. It takes those role players to fill out the rest of the stat sheet and contribute, even if only in a minor way.

If Barry doesn't kill you on defense and/or Udoka can shoot better than 30% from the field, I'd say you'd be nuts to just maintain the status quo.

AFBlue

12-02-2007, 11:54 PM

Well the main reason they wouldn't reduce his minutes right now is because there offense isn't hurting, in fact it's looking to be one of the best offensive seasons of the Duncan era...Pop won't usually sacrifice defense for offense when the offense sucks...he's really not going to want to do it when the offense doesn't suck.

I think what you're getting at is that Finley's lack of offense hasn't hurt the Spurs overall in that category thus far....but eventually the black hole that is his offense will catch up to the Spurs.

Once the Spurs experience a close loss in which Finley does diddly with a good 10 possessions, I think you might re-think your stance.

Additionally...Finley sucked all of last season and eventually was beaten out of the rotation by Barry more or less...but the second he picked up he was back in the rotation ahead of Barry...Finley's not sucking as badly this season as he did last season, so I think Pop is going to give him a while to shoot his way out of it.

Interesting....

You say that Finley lost his job/minutes to another player and then all of the sudden became effective? What a coincidence!

Perhaps the competition and the pressure of earning minutes actually helped Finley get back on track.

And one final point...the Spurs bench is why they are kicking everyone's butt right now...if they don't have the best bench(higthest scoring) in the league...they are close to it...they are literally rolling the second units of teams...you move Barry and you move arguably the second best bench player after Manu...add in the fact that the reason the bench is so dominant is because of the ball movement, and Barry is excellent at ballmovement...

It just seems you be hurting the bench and the defense more than you'd be helping the offense or the starting rotation....

Isn't the point to put the best overall team on the court? I don't care if the most points or effective minutes come from starters or bench players...I care that the Spurs give minutes to the players that will give them the best chance to win night in and night out.

As of right now, it's my opinion that Finley gives this team less of a chance to win than Barry with more minutes/increased role and potentially Udoka.

That may mean the Spurs beat an opponent by 15 instead of 8, but it could also mean that the Spurs beat an opponent by 3 instead of losing by 1. Again, we won't know until the Spurs make a move.

THE SIXTH MAN

12-02-2007, 11:56 PM

That argument sort of works against you....

As you pointed out, Finley is a role player.

Role players, by definition, are susceptible to "swap out" in case there are matchup issues or in case one of them is not playing very well.

And last time I checked, the big 3 don't account for 100% of the point total each game. It takes those role players to fill out the rest of the stat sheet and contribute, even if only in a minor way.

If Barry doesn't kill you on defense and/or Udoka can shoot better than 30% from the field, I'd say you'd be nuts to just maintain the status quo.
:lol Since when have the Spurs ever needed a high octane offense to win games? As is the offense is kicking ass right now. Theres nothing wrong with the offense...at all. What pop and company are concerned with right now is defense. You threw Fin's stats for the last 3 losses up. But the stat you should have posted was opponents field goal %. Like I said earlier, in pops mind defense > offense.

whottt

12-02-2007, 11:57 PM

And it's my opinion that your suggestion would do more harm than good at this particular moment in time. Our bench is a huge factor in our offensive surge and prstine W-L record...and you want to mess with that.

And no...Finley didn't start playing better after losing his spot in the rotation. Indeed, he sucked worse...it was getting guaranteed PT due to an injury that snapped him out of it.

Honestly...Finley's about done with his NBA career...at the same time, he's still a better defender than Barry...and our offense is doing fine.

And when our offense struggles and we lose a game because of it...Pop is not going to say, we need better offense, he's going to say, we need better defense.

BeerIsGood!

12-03-2007, 12:00 AM

AFBlue

12-03-2007, 12:06 AM

And it's my opinion that your suggestion would do more harm than good at this particular moment in time.

Obviously then, we'll just agree to disagree.

THE SIXTH MAN

12-03-2007, 12:21 AM

:lol for the record I'm not a Finley homer or anything like that. But at this point in time I do believe there are bigger fish to fry then Finley's offensive production. But if he does prove to be a liability on both ends of the floor, then I'm all for yanking him from the line up and rotations all together.

Ime is still a little too green when it comes to the knowing the ins and outs of the Spurs system. And Barry right now has been a huge spark off the bench with Manu.

BonnerDynasty

12-03-2007, 12:27 AM

Starting Five:

Duncan
Bonner
Bowen
Barry
Parker

Killer B's.

Demo Dick Marcinko

12-03-2007, 03:37 AM

FWIW:

Finley's stats:

Min FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF TOT AST PTS
07-08 24.5 .338 .342 .818 0.2 2.6 2.8 1.6 8.1
06-08 22.2 .412 .364 .918 0.4 2.3 2.7 1.3 9.0

I know it's not a complete picture, more along the lines of a snap shot of his offensive production which this year has gotten progressively moreso offensive. I'm not sure how to quantify his defensive impact, but it's clear to see that on the offensive end his lack of a viable game is hurting us. The above stats don't even include tonight's pitiful production. Part of me is still likes and admires Michael Finely and he has meant alot to the organization. I don't think we ought to take him out of the starters role, but I definitely think that Barry and Udoka should be getting the lions share of his minutes. Cut him down to maybe 12-15 minutes a game until he regains what ever mojo it is that he has lost. Just a thought, don't slam me.

ChumpDumper

12-03-2007, 03:52 AM

it's clear to see that on the offensive end his lack of a viable game is hurting us.How badly is it hurting us? Would we be 18-0 if Finley wasn't starting?

TDMVPDPOY

12-03-2007, 04:26 AM

finley collects 2 paychecks, and his playin like crap :( theres no excuse for that

and his no mango

AFBlue

12-03-2007, 09:21 AM

How badly is it hurting us? Would we be 18-0 if Finley wasn't starting?

Obviously you can't speculate that playing Barry or Udoka for more minutes in those losses would've changed the outcome because they may or may not have had the "touches" that Finley got and/or played the defense Finley did....

BUT, you can reasonably assume that any other bench player would've had a more positive impact on the offensive end than Finley, simply by looking at the FG%.

Based on FG%, Finley is this team's worst offensive option, yet he starts and averages the fourth-most FGs on the team.

Bottom Line: While you can't be certain the outcome would change, you can make a statistical case that the offense would've scored more points in those losses.

SouthernFried

12-03-2007, 09:54 AM

I don't understand why people think Finley is playing "decent" D. I've never really seen him play decent D.

Barry is no Defensive stopper (except on transition D where he's broken up a few fast breaks). But, he has those long arms he likes to use to swipe from behind and has gotten himself a few steals. He also seems more active than Finley on D. Finley is one of the easier guys in the NBA to get around and shoot over. Very slow reaction and foot speed on the defensive end.

When he's hot on the offensive end, you can sorta live with it. Only real pure jump shooter the Spurs have. And I like Finley...good guy, and good chemistry with the team.

Still...

TMTTRIO

12-03-2007, 10:17 AM

Since Tim is going to be out maybe it's about time to start Manu and have both offensive threats out there too start. Also we've been starting lately without any energy so we're going to start needing some from the very start. That's why Manu's been coming in sooner and sooner lately. Brent's doing so well he can continue to bring the energy and scoring off the bench. Just go ahead and give him more of Finley's minutes.

Demo Dick Marcinko

12-03-2007, 10:41 AM

How badly is it hurting us? Would we be 18-0 if Finley wasn't starting?

Come on Chump that's just plain dumb and you know it, unless I missed the sarcasm smiley. But since you brought that up Fin is shooting 24% in the games we lost. Those are Chris Dudley numbers. Even so we're still 15-3. However I think that you'll agree that with Duncan possibly less then 100% and with a tough Dec schedule coming up we're going need to be firing on all cylinders, everyone. 2 for 10 on 20% FG% is going to hurt us against a good opponent. Let's hope he does better against _allas. Reread my post, I'm not saying bench Fin or even take him out of his starters role, what I'm saying is give more of his minutes to Barry and Udoka until Fin regains some of his color and a bit of a pulse.

nfg3

12-03-2007, 12:06 PM

Pop will probably do nothing for awhile becasuse he usually lets his players shoot their way out of slumps. So we'll see this for some time. How long I don't know but it will continue at least through this year and midway Jan IMO.

As for starting Manu and Barry I am a little reluctant at this point. Both are in a groove coming off the bench and if they now start who is going to replace the energy that they bring? I'd like to see Ime with more time but he's got to earn it and so far hasn't - you know the 1st year blues/learning curve.

I'd also like to see Elson get more touches at the 15 - 18 ft range. I'd like to see him hitting that shot with consistency and spreading the floor by doing so.

Ed Helicopter Jones

12-03-2007, 12:27 PM

If it ain't broke....

Keep Barry coming off the bench. Our bench play is what has us at 14-3.

AFBlue

12-03-2007, 12:51 PM

If it ain't broke....

Keep Barry coming off the bench. Our bench play is what has us at 14-3.

I don't understand the "If it ain't broke" logic.

If a team is doing well but has an opportunity to tinker and make themselves better...why wouldn't they?

The Patriots had a perennial title-contender, but they went out and got Randy Moss and an entirely new offense. They have been the best NFL franchise since 2000....and they still made changes to get better.

And what I'm suggesting isn't anywhere NEAR that level of change. I'm simply suggesting that the Spurs remove a struggling player from the rotation and replace his role/minutes with players that are/can perform better at this time.

I don't understand the hesitation because of the "bench" squad either. Tim, Tony, Manu, and Bruce are winning these games...not the bench. They're getting help from game to game from a couple components of the bench, but the only one to really step up consistently has been Barry...so why not give him more burn?

Another point....aren't we at a point in the season when changes should be made and rotations should be experimented with?

If the Spurs were going to make a move and test out their roster, it should be now, when the Spurs have time to recover if the experiment fails.

ChumpDumper

12-03-2007, 01:53 PM

Come on Chump that's just plain dumb and you know itIt's not dumb. Everyone says we will be so much better if we get rid of Finley.

Bottom line it -- the Spurs have been on a pace to win 68 games with the current lineup. How would they do with Barry or Udoka getting those minutes? 75? 82?

wildbill2u

12-03-2007, 01:56 PM

Is Udoka an energy player? Even though he's not as familiar with the system, could he replace Barry off the bench since Barry is admittedly no defensive whiz and let Barry start in place of Finley.

This may be the perfect time, early in the season with some meaningless games on tap, for Pop to replace Finley and do some tinkering.

AFBlue

12-03-2007, 02:09 PM

It's not dumb. Everyone says we will be so much better if we get rid of Finley.

Bottom line it -- the Spurs have been on a pace to win 68 games with the current lineup. How would they do with Barry or Udoka getting those minutes? 75? 82?

With Finley, no championship? With Barry/Udoka, repeat? Who knows....

Pose all the hypotheticals you want, but it's about putting the best team on the floor with the best shot at winning. Bottom line that.

ChumpDumper

12-03-2007, 02:09 PM

ChumpDumper

12-03-2007, 02:12 PM

it's about putting the best team on the floor with the best shot at winning. Bottom line that.The team on the floor wins 83% of the games they play.

AFBlue

12-03-2007, 02:21 PM

So are the games meaningless or do we think our record could be better?

Both actually.

I'm of the opinion that a "green" Ime couldn't possibly do worse than Finley and giving more minutes to Barry while he's playing at this level can't be a bad thing....

However, if the experiment does fail (Udoka fails to impress and Finley responds by shooting an even worse percentage), it is early enough in the season to reinstitute the the rotation that the Spurs began with and hope that Finley's shot isn't irreparably damaged.

I'm of the mind that Udoka isn't quite ready for regular minutes and if I want to monitor anyone's minutes with the playoffs in mind it's Manu first then Barry. If Udoka starts getting it, he can take some of Bowen and Finley's minutes.

Solid points. Udoka's readiness and Barry's ability to handle a few more minutes a night are things that you and I will have to disagree on.

ChumpDumper

12-03-2007, 02:28 PM

So if the games mean something, there's no need to fix the lineup.

If the games mean nothing, allowing Finley to play through his slump is as legitimate an experiment as any others proposed.

Bruno

12-03-2007, 02:30 PM

THE SIXTH MAN

12-03-2007, 02:36 PM

is one of the easier guys in the NBA to get around and shoot over. Very slow reaction and foot speed on the defensive end.

:lol You just described Barry right there too. In reality both Finley and Barry suck on D. I mean who are we trying to kid here? I'd also like to point out that me labeling Finley's D as decent, thats me being generous right there.

But there's always a method to pops madness. And I'm guessing pop sees that Barry and Manu's spark off the bench as of late, trumps Finley's lack of production on the offensive end starting.

And Pop has stated on numerous occasions that he's not worried about Finley and his slump. And thats the thing when it comes to shooters. I remember a time when Barry sucked ass too on offense. And now look at him. I doubt the people that wanted to trade him then would want to trade him now. And Finley was in the same sort of funk last year too. But when the playoffs came around he became a solid contributer.

AFBlue

12-03-2007, 02:48 PM

So if the games mean something, there's no need to fix the lineup.

If the games mean nothing, allowing Finley to play through his slump is as legitimate an experiment as any others proposed.

I can play that game too...

If the games mean something, then the Spurs must be proactive and not simply wait for Finley to get out of his slump.

If the games mean nothing, then the Spurs have nothing to lose by allowing a "green" Ime the opportunity to earn some additional minutes.

THE SIXTH MAN

12-03-2007, 02:48 PM

Finley was very bad last year in November before playing well at the end of the season. It's too soon to do a lineup change. If in a couple of months, he is still that bad and if he hurts the team, a lineup change could make some sense.
Exactly. The offense will be tinkered with this season thats for sure. But I don't think it will be that much like it was last season because players 1 through 11 are back from last years championship run. So in essence pop has more of an idea then he did last year on what line ups are better for the situation. People are arguing the problem when the solution isn't that much more of an improvement.

ChumpDumper

12-03-2007, 02:54 PM

I can play that game too...

If the games mean something, then the Spurs must be proactive and not simply wait for Finley to get out of his slump.Except they are winning more than anyone expected.

If the games mean nothing, then the Spurs have nothing to lose by allowing a "green" Ime the opportunity to earn some additional minutes.I said it was as legitimate as any other experiment.

ArgSpursFan.

12-03-2007, 03:35 PM

I say Pop sticks to the same lineup and brings in Elson to play Center and Oberto plays the PF spot.
If it was a mistake to keep Mike another year in the roster giving him minutes or not it will be a matter of time, too early in the season right now to tell.
After all we still have a great record and the best reg season start in a long time.

wildbill2u

12-03-2007, 03:51 PM

So are the games meaningless or do we think our record could be better?

I'm of the mind that Udoka isn't quite ready for regular minutes and if I want to monitor anyone's minutes with the playoffs in mind it's Manu first then Barry. If Udoka starts getting it, he can take some of Bowen and Finley's minutes.
Trust you to leap onto one word--"meaningless" and make it the centerpiece of a quibbling arguement.

My point was that Pop has always said he doesn't think that coming in first in the conference is necessary. He apparently believes it doesn't matter if you lose a few games--and we will--as long as the goal is to find the means to win the championship at the end of the season.

It's a given that we won't go 79-3 so we don't know whether we'd lose more games with a different lineup or not. But during the regular season, and most especially the early part of the season, experimentation with lineups and with players is less likely to affect the team chemistry. By March, Pop wants to know what to expect from each player and his rotations tighten up.

We know what Fin can give us, at least when he's playing well. What can a different look give us? Why not give it a try while Fin isn't playing well.

ChumpDumper

12-03-2007, 04:30 PM

Trust you to leap onto one word--"meaningless" and make it the centerpiece of a quibbling arguement. Well, you said it.
We know what Fin can give us, at least when he's playing well.We know what Barry can give as well. As for Udoka, I said giving him welfare minutes is as legitimate as giving them to Finley if that is what we are doing with him.

If we don't care about winning at all, we should play Udoka, Washington and Mahimni 40 mpg and shoot for the eight seed.

Demo Dick Marcinko

12-03-2007, 06:43 PM

Except they are winning more than anyone expected.
True, we are winning in spite of Fin's shooting and confidence problems.
I just think we can compromise, keep Fin as the starter, reduce his minutes marginally and give those to Udoka and Barry, continue with the green light for Fin to continue to shoot in the event that he regains his mojo and until he does make him earn is minutes. I'd rather tinker with the rotation now then towards the end of the season. You see it's just a tweak rather then a major overhaul. I do see the merits of your point, not only that but you after all are one of the great basketball minds of this or any other generation. :toast