Here Come The Toll Roads

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Metropolitan Planning Organization Approves Toll Road (http://www.ksat.com/news/14765169/detail.html)

[LaMarcus Bryant]

They approve these things by fabricating evidence to show the tollroad views amongst citizens is nearly equal, when in fact its not.

[Sapphire]

The vote was not unanimous. Groups against the toll roads have vowed to tie up the process and create delays with lawsuits.

They are gonna drag this thing out as long as possible. It's ridiculous. If you don't want to pay, stay off the damn road.

[jman3000]

is this thing gonna have an ez pass system like other toll roads ive seen? are we gonna just be able to drive through with an electronic tag, or are we gonna have to actually stop and pay?

[KEDA]

:clap :clap :clap :elephant :elephant :spin :spin :spin

[01Snake]

They approve these things by fabricating evidence to show the tollroad views amongst citizens is nearly equal, when in fact its not.

Yes. More people WANT them! :elephant

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

is this thing gonna have an ez pass system like other toll roads ive seen? are we gonna just be able to drive through with an electronic tag, or are we gonna have to actually stop and pay?

I would think there'd have to be an EZPass system.

[mrsmaalox]

Well let's get this show on the road then! Now if they begin construction next summer, will we see the completion in our lifetime??

[jman3000]

toll roads are usually built faster than normal free ways because the companies building them are actually going to see revenue from them.

i just hope they get these things built sooner rather than later, the more delays, the more headaches are going to pile up during construction.

[Steve Irwin]

welcome to the new world

[Shelly]

The one's in CA have a thing call FastTrak. You have transponder and believe me, they know when it's not registered to your car. My dad gave us one of his to use in our car and they got a letter stating that the transponder wasn't in the right car. However, if you don't have one, the every so often you have to stop and pay. I'm not sure how many miles apart the tolls are, though.

[Twisted_Dawg]

is this thing gonna have an ez pass system like other toll roads ive seen? are we gonna just be able to drive through with an electronic tag, or are we gonna have to actually stop and pay?

I think they are going to imbed a toll microchip in your forehead.

[Shelly]

I don't know if SA's rates will be like, but I doubt they'd be much less than CA's?

http://www.thetollroads.com/home/maps.htm

[Steve Irwin]

I don't know if SA's rates will be like, but I doubt they'd be much less than CA's?

http://www.thetollroads.com/home/maps.htm
CA's tolls are ridiculous

$4-6 depending on which bridge. :rolleyes

[Buddy Holly]

I don't know if SA's rates will be like, but I doubt they'd be much less than CA's?

http://www.thetollroads.com/home/maps.htm

17 cents a mile in SA.

[CubanMustGo]

Wow, 17 cents is REALLY high.

[Steve Irwin]

Wow, 17 cents is REALLY high.
That ain't shit

That's like what, a $2 toll?

[ChumpDumper]

is this thing gonna have an ez pass system like other toll roads ive seen? are we gonna just be able to drive through with an electronic tag, or are we gonna have to actually stop and pay?If the metro planners are smart -- I'll have to be convinced they are -- then your toll roads should be part of the TxTag system which works on most of the toll roads in Texas.

http://www.txtag.org/

[CubanMustGo]

The newer toll roads in D/FW are being built with NO way to pay on the highway. You either use a toll tag (eztag, etc) or you get a bill with a service charge tacked on making it even more expensive.

Not surprisingly something like 25% of the people so billed aren't paying so far.

[T Park]

Taxation without representation.

God Bless the red coats are back!!!

[T Park]

It's ridiculous. If you don't want to pay, stay off the damn road.



I already pay.

Its called the gas tax.

Keep up the genius takes :tu

[hibachi]

The premise seems good, but I can't help but think there is an implicit catch that I'm not catching because I never bothered to research toll roads.

[ShoogarBear]

I don't think this idea will work, because it didn't really help when they got their own forum.




Oh, wait, you said toll . . .

[J.T.]

The tolls in Austin aren't that bad on my wallet, granted, I don't take them every day, but I'd say I don't spend more than $10 a week on it. Probably less than that on average.

[KEDA]

Taxation without representation.

God Bless the red coats are back!!!


I guess my question from the other thread has been answered.

[Sapphire]

I already pay.

Its called the gas tax.

Keep up the genius takes :tu
:flipoff
If you don't want to pay extra. You should have to pay a heavy load fee every day anyway. Damn, toss in a salad every now and then.

[Richard Cranium]

I won't be paying any tolls. There is nothing in that area that I can't find where I live now.

[TheQuattro]

I don't think this idea will work, because it didn't really help when they got their own forum.




Oh, wait, you said toll . . .

thequattro thread is the troll forum.

[Clandestino]

exactly, just like in houston and dallas... bumper to bumper on the toll roads!

[travis2]

http://radio.woai.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=119078&article=3003305

Toll Construction Could Begin by May

Plans to 'accelerate' construction
By Jim Forsyth
Tuesday, December 4, 2007

Now that the final hurdle for a massive toll road project in Bexar County has been approved, officials say the dirt could be turned on the first toll roads, on US 281 between Sonterra Road and Marshall Road, by next May, 1200 WOAI news reports.

"We're going to accelerate this project as quickly as we can,” said Bill Thornton, the head of the Regional Mobility Authority, which will have the responsibility for arranging the financing to build what is called the ‘starter system of toll roads,’ a $1.3 billion dollar project of toll lanes on US 281 and Loop 1604 that was approved Monday night by the Metropolitan Planning Organization.

“We know that it takes a long time to build the roads out, so let’s get started as quickly as possible,” Thornton said.

When the first toll lanes on US 281 open in 2011, the tolls will be 17 cents a mile for passenger cars and pickups. That toll rate will escalate at 2.75% a year through 2016, and at 3% a year beyond 2017. There are no provisions to cut the tolls or eliminate them altogether, even after the roads are paid for.

Emergency first responders would not have to pay tolls, and Via Metro Transit would be free to a ‘limit per year’ to be established by the RMA. Still to be determined, whether school busses will pay tolls.

Anti toll groups, which drowned out toll supporters at the contentious MPO meeting, say they will not stop their fight. Terri Hall of the anti toll group Texans Uniting for Reform and Freedom, pointed out that a lawsuit challenging the vote is still pending in federal court.

“We’re going to use every means possible to challenge this toll road,” she said.

But Thornton said if legal challenges delay the project, everybody loses.

“I will tell you if it delays the project, all of the citizens of San Antonio can look at 281 and 410 by the Airport and they ask ‘why did it take so long to build that?’ And the answer is, delays. Delays don’t benefit anybody. We plan to move along as quickly as possible.”

Hall and anti toll attorney David Van Os said they also plan to challenge the constitutionality of the MPO itself. Seven of the 12 votes in favor of toll roads were cast by non elected MPO members, including the director of the San Antonio Airport, the Infrastructure Services Director for Bexar County and, amazingly, two employees of the Texas Department of Transportation.

“TexDOT is actually voting in favor of putting more money in their coffers,” Hall said.

One big question concerns what percentage of the driving public will opt for toll roads over the access roads, which will remain free, although increasingly congested. Officials say no improvements will be made to free lanes of 281 or 1604 over and above ‘safety improvements.’

RMA Director Terry Brechtel at first said no more than 10% of motorists would opt for the toll lanes, but under intense questioning from State Senator Carlos Uresti, who voted against the toll plan, she revised that to 40% right away, and 75% after ten years, as San Antonians get more used to driving on toll roads.

Thornton agreed.

“There’s a saying, that no one likes a toll road until they get one, and then they love it. I think people will really warm to toll roads.”
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A saying? Where is that saying from? I've never heard it.

Sure enough...they plan to fuck up 281 to try and force people to pay the toll.

Also, it's obvious that Terry Brechtel doesn't have a clue as to how many people will use the toll roads. Makes me wonder what kind of studies, if any were done...and if so, what they actually said.

And this is just the beginning.

[Bigzax]

i can't lika da tolls.

[scott]

I guess my question from the other thread has been answered.

The bigger surprise was that you actually felt you needed to ask...

[Twisted_Dawg]

I already pay.

Its called the gas tax.

Keep up the genius takes :tu

Exactly!! Except the majority of our "gas taxes" go to the General Fund so our good federal government can waste them on everything EXCEPT building/maintaining roads. For those that don't mind paying tolls, there should be a voluntary box on the IRS tax form that allows them to pay an additional $750.00 in taxes that would go to building toll roads. I bet you wouldn't see to many of those boxes checked.

[Twisted_Dawg]

In the meeting last night, it was announced that there are plans to toll Loop 1604 from IH-10 to Hwy 90. WTF?? Loop 1604 is alrady a freeway from IH-10 to 2 miles south of Bandera.

So they want to take an existing freeway already paid for and turn it into a toll road that a private managemt company will make a ton of money from? Damn I am in the wrong business.

[midgetonadonkey]

I don't really give a shit either way. I never travel up that way.

[1369]

Exactly!! Except the majority of our "gas taxes" that were set up for building/maintaining roads go to the General Fund so our good State Government can waste them on everything EXCEPT building/maintaining roads.

FTFY

[midgetonadonkey]

it's like dogs on skateboards

Dogs on skateboards are funny.

[Sunshine]

plus

even if these brand-new toll roads are SO BIGGG AND GREATT!!! what happens in 10, 20, 50 years? Traffic catches up and you now have a bigger, more polluting, more expensive, plain ol road.

These toll roads are band-aid fixes. The only good thing about them is tolls might discourage people to drive...poor people, of course.


But the people who live over here are all rich. :rolleyes

[ATRAIN]

The tolls in Austin aren't that bad on my wallet, granted, I don't take them every day, but I'd say I don't spend more than $10 a week on it. Probably less than that on average.


I use the toll road to get to work everyday. They A. Save me 30 mins on my drive to work. B. Save me on gas. The Toll roads in Houston are convenient as well. Its a great second option to have.

[xrayzebra]

The tolls in Austin aren't that bad on my wallet, granted, I don't take them every day, but I'd say I don't spend more than $10 a week on it. Probably less than that on average.

Gee only $520.00 a year. What, about one weeks salary to
drive on a road you help to subsidize to build.

[angel_luv]

I don't think this idea will work, because it didn't really help when they got their own forum.




Oh, wait, you said toll . . .

:lol
I actually did misread the thread title at first.

[xrayzebra]

And this is just the beginning.

Are you ever correct travis2. Just the beginning.
But the movers and shakers are trying to tell us how we
are now in the bigtime, like other bigtime cities..... :rolleyes

[JoeChalupa]

I don't really give a shit either way. I never travel up that way.

Me either.

[mrsmaalox]

Exactly!! Except the majority of our "gas taxes" go to the General Fund so our good federal government can waste them on everything EXCEPT building/maintaining roads. For those that don't mind paying tolls, there should be a voluntary box on the IRS tax form that allows them to pay an additional $750.00 in taxes that would go to building toll roads. I bet you wouldn't see to many of those boxes checked.

It's a repeat of the "let's start the Lottery to help education" debacle.

[ATRAIN]

Gee only $520.00 a year. What, about one weeks salary to
drive on a road you help to subsidize to build.


you should figure what some use on gas if they don't use the toll roads.

[CubanMustGo]

If we had lawmakers who would (a) increase the state gas tax which has not been adjusted for over a decade now, and (b) actually send all that money to TxDOT, the majority of this toll road crap would not be necessary. Gas price has tripled, but the per gallon tax hasn't changed ...

The current bunch of TxDOT leadership are all Rick Perry cronies who have their hands in the pockets of the toll road lobby. Getting rid of them would help, too.

[Useruser666]

I would support a gas tax.

I would support a higher inspection sticker fee.

I would support a higher sales tax.



I will not ever support a toll road (tax) system.


Answer the following questions for yourselves:

Why not use the system of taxing the people already in place to get the needed funds?

Why should people pay for the creation and maintenance of a redundant system of taxing them when its not needed?

Why build infrastructure that can not be utilized by 100% of the people?

Who truly benefits from toll roads?


Toll roads would never be needed if the people in charge could manage the needs of the people correctly. "Let them eat cake."

[johnsmith]

As I said in a different thread, TxDot requires (much like most government agencies) that complaints in regards to a developing project be sent via postmail in the form of a written complaint. The amount of complaints needs to be a certain percentage of the estimated vehicles on the road on any given day.

TxDot received less then 100 complaints.

All you folks against, you had your chance and you chose to bitch about it on spurstalk.com rather then doing something constructive to have your voice heard.

Too late.........and far, far too little.

Bring on the roads.

[johnsmith]

Good news too. Since the job got shut down initially, costs have gone up 20%, so that was a sweet move by the anti-toll party.

Oh, and what more is that the job is going to have to be re-bid, which means your local construction company (Zachry), might not get it this time and will bring in their own labor from other areas.

Finally, if they would have let it be built the first time (by the way, nothing has changed in the environmental scope of work), it would be done by now, and the folks that are so miserable up and down 281 would have nice, pretty overpasses to drive on that wouldn't be tolled yet because they wanted to wait for the rest of 281 as well as 1604 to be complete...........but those plans have changed.


Sweet, anti-toll party, that was sweet indeed.

[1369]

Good news too. Since the job got shut down initially, costs have gone up 20%, so that was a sweet move by the anti-toll party.

Oh, and what more is that the job is going to have to be re-bid, which means your local construction company (Zachry), might not get it this time and will bring in their own labor from other areas.

Finally, if they would have let it be built the first time (by the way, nothing has changed in the environmental scope of work), it would be done by now, and the folks that are so miserable up and down 281 would have nice, pretty overpasses to drive on that wouldn't be tolled yet because they wanted to wait for the rest of 281 as well as 1604 to be complete...........but those plans have changed.


Sweet, anti-toll party, that was sweet indeed.

Well, that nose wasn't really needed now, was it?

[Extra Stout]

The ignorance on the issue of toll roads is pervasive, but not surprising. Generally, people like public goods, but don't like paying for them.

In Texas, road construction and maintenance is supposed to be funded by the gas tax. This worked well for a long time. Then the Legislature got the bright idea to amend the state Constitution so that 25% of the taxes go to fund public education.

The other problem is that the gas tax is a fixed amount that is not indexed to inflation, much less the price of gas, and it hasn't been raised since 1992. In the last 15 years, the US dollar has lost a third of its value, so in effect, gas taxes have gone down by a third.

However, Texas has a whole lot more people, most of whom live in cities, and people in cities tend to need big, wide, controlled-access expressways to get around, since so many of them are trying to get around at the same time. Those kind of facilities are super-expensive, even more so in cities where the land itself is costlier. The roads also are more expensive to build than they were 10-15 years ago because of tighter design standards and more stringent environmental requirements.

So, we have more people, but each paying less tax in real dollars, and now a big hunk of the proceeds now go to fund education. This does not add up to a huge windfall to build nice, wide, expensive freeways everywhere to relieve traffic in major cities.

So, this leaves the state some choices:

1. Restore the 25% cut of the gas taxes back to roads, raise the gas tax by 5-10 cents a gallon or so to make up the remaining shortfall, and slash education spending.

Who likes this option?

2. Same as #1, except some other tax, like sales tax or property tax, gets raised to cover the shortfall in education.

Who likes this option?

3. Raise the gas tax around 15-20 cents a gallon or so in order to make up the shortfall.

Who likes this one?

4. Delay building expanded roads for a couple of decades until the funding becomes available.

Anyone like this one?

5. Use tolls on the new roads themselves to finance their building and maintenance.

Obviously people don't like this one.

6. Find people somewhere else and take their money to pay for roads in San Antonio.

Ooh, free ice cream!! This is the option people usually prefer. Unfortunately, those other people somewhere else don't exist in reality.

Thus... toll roads.

Toll roads are prone to abuse. The intended idea is for toll roads to justify themselves, that is, for demand to be such that the tolls on the road itself pay for its construction. If any of you are project engineers, you know that is how projects are supposed to work.

The temptation, though, is to abuse this system, by erecting or raising tolls on existing roadways and tollways for new roads that are non-justifiable. This is generally done in return for kickbacks, campaign donations, or other favors from developers. This was done, for example, on the Fort Bend Toll Road near Houston, which was built largely to accomodate a new housing development. It was funded by raising tolls on the highly successful Sam Houston Tollway by 25 cents. Developers are clamoring for something similar to build the Grand Parkway, a far-outer loop in Houston that would go through what today is empty prarie and wetland, but on which developers would like a nice, wide road to be built so they can start putting up more tract homes 35 miles from downtown Houston.

This same corrupt idea has been proposed by a Cintra employee named Rick Perry, who purportedly is also the governor of the state of Texas. He proposed erecting toll booths on rural Interstate highways in Texas to help fund the Trans-Texas Corridor, a.k.a. "The Golden Calf of Road Builders."

I think tolls are OK on NEW lanes only. if you have six at-grade free lanes on 281 now, and you're going to have six at-grade free lanes on 281 after the project, you haven't lost anything; you simply have a new toll road in the median. If that's not good enough, then basically you're expecting a free lunch, and there is no such thing as a free lunch.

[Fillmoe]

Tolls in SA, I hope they know half of SA can't afford a 1 dollar toll fee.

[CubanMustGo]

I would rather pay an additional $0.20-0.25 per gallon gas tax than pay $5 to use a damned road every day, which is what it's getting to in Dallas. As I have said on many occasions, gas has gone from $1 to $3 and you know what, people are still driving. Another quarter is just noise.

But tax increases are the third rail these days and we don't have any leaders willing to take on the idea. Pity.

[mookie2001]

we all know that building more roads always fixes traffic problems


historically speaking

[katyon6th]

:flipoff
If you don't want to pay extra. You should have to pay a heavy load fee every day anyway. Damn, toss in a salad every now and then.

I'm a little late but damn, that made me laugh out loud.

[Twisted_Dawg]

Last night at the meeting, the planners voted for $475 million to be spent tolling 8 miles of Highway 281 from 1604 to the county line. This is to put in toll lanes, three overpasses, and the non-toll frontage roads. But in testimony, TXDot said that 2.5 years ago they had a plan to to improve Hwy 281 by adding one additional lane north and south and build three overpasses......all for a whopping $100 million plus inflation.

There is a little better profit margin for the toll road gig for all the whores at the toll road feed trough: road builders (H. B. Zachary), engineers, lawyers, landscapers, etc and of course all those lobbyist like Terry Brectel, Bob Thornton, et al getting real rich on this deal!!!!

[Extra Stout]

Last night at the meeting, the planners voted for $475 million to be spent tolling 8 miles of Highway 281 from 1604 to the county line. This is to put in toll lanes, three overpasses, and the non-toll frontage roads. But in testimony, TXDot said that 2.5 years ago they had a plan to to improve Hwy 281 by adding one additional lane north and south and build three overpasses......all for a whopping $100 million plus inflation.

There is a little better profit margin for the toll road gig for all the whores at the toll road feed trough: road builders (H. B. Zachary), engineers, lawyers, landscapers, etc and of course all those lobbyist like Terry Brectel, Bob Thornton, et al getting real rich on this deal!!!!
That $475 million is quite obviously thievery. That's a higher cost per mile than the freaking Katy Freeway project!

And the Katy Freeway is being built as:
4 toll lanes
8 free lanes
6 frontage lanes
2 flyover stack interchanges at the Sam Houston Tollway and at IH-610

The frontage that had to be purchased was fully developed land heading into the interior of Houston.

And yet 281 is more expensive than that? Bull. Y'all need to go shoot somebody. You're being robbed.

[Extra Stout]

And $112 million for the project is coming from public funds????

Look, I don't oppose toll roads in principle, but those details are telling me that your elected officials are stealing $300 million of your money, San Antonio. That project should cost $175 million, tops. Light your freaking torches.

[Sapphire]

I'm a little late but damn, that made me laugh out loud.

To think I've left threads before thinking, "Damn, they are sure tough on Tpark." Asshole brings it on himself as far as I'm concerned. Tear him up fellas.