The Emerging Face of The Immigration Debate...

[Nbadan]

...and it's not to pretty...


http://www.splcenter.org/images/imglib/W/ir123_deadly_force2_200.jpg
Friend of a friend?

Brandishing insults and a gun, Roy Warden routinely threatens Latinos with death. Some observers fear the worst.
(Jackie Mercandetti)



TUCSON, Ariz. -- Sunday services were under way inside St. Augustine's Cathedral. Outside, the summer air was still and quiet except for a few birds chirping in a courtyard near the entrance. But the serenity was doomed. A car pulled up, and a graying, bespectacled man carrying a handgun and a loudspeaker got out, two cameramen in tow.

Working fast, he positioned a collection of lawn chairs on the public sidewalk in front of the Catholic cathedral, then encircled the lawn chairs with what appeared to be a series of pink jump ropes and planted two American flags. With the bravado of a professional wrestler, he then stepped into the roped-off ring he'd constructed, threw down a Mexican flag, and ceremoniously stomped on it, grinding his heel for the cameras.

Then he turned on the loudspeaker and addressed the worshippers inside St. Augustine's.

"You people don't seem to understand forbidden territory, whether it's a child's anus or the American border! You just want to push on in, don't you?" he screamed, his face flushed with anger. "We are going to be driving you back to Mexico real goddamn soon!" Spit flew from his mouth. "Get used to it! My name is Roy Warden, and I burn Mexican flags!"

<skip>

"The demagoguery and scapegoating of immigrants by public figures in the national media has encouraged the Roy Wardens of the world to be more brazen and violent," says Rich Stolz, a Tucson-based immigrant rights organizer with the Center for Community Change. "As long as fundamentally violent policy proposals like border militarization, vigilantism, mass deportations, and migrant concentration camps go unchallenged in the public debate over immigration reform, anyone with a Roy Warden mindset will perceive that they have a free pass to use the anti-immigrant platform to preach hate and violence."

Link (http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=1142)

Not saying that everyone who seeks comprehensive Immigration reform is a Roy Wardens extremist, but there are a lot of Roy Wardens out there who are emboldened by the political expedient anti-immigrant demagoguery coming from the right...

[boutons_]

Cogito, Ergo Sum

... has become:

I'm (self-righteously) mad as hell, therefore I exist.

Somebody tell rabble Roy, and rabble-rousing, pro-business Lou Dobbs, that illegal immigrants will remain a permanent fixture of the US economy as long as businesses want them to be.

Hey Roy, what's with the "push on in (to a) ... child's anus" reference?
Got something on your mind after your 15 minutes of spittle-drenched fame?

America The Beautiful

[Clandestino]

:lol i just can't imagine someone doing that! too crazy. yeah, sp the child's anus part..

[xrayzebra]

...
Not saying that everyone who seeks comprehensive Immigration reform is a Roy Wardens extremist, but there are a lot of Roy Wardens out there who are emboldened by the political expedient anti-immigrant demagoguery coming from the right...

Dan, how bout you get one fact straight. People are not
anti-immigrant they are anti-ILLEGAL Alien.

I and many others don't like the idea of people jumping
the line. You want to come to the United States do so
in a legal manner. Illegals are causing much harm to
our country. Those that employ them are cheating
American workers and illegals depress wages.

Get that fact straight in your post.

[NASCARdad]

Close the borders and deport them all!!! Xray is right on the money.

[Nbadan]

Does anyone think people like Roy Warden distinguish between immigrants here legally and those not?....

How big of a factor will illegal immigration be in your vote?

Very 61%
Somewhat 21%
Not at all 18%

AOL (http://news.aol.com/?feature=20071204225609990001)

People seem to have caught anti-immigrant fever

[JoeChalupa]

No. Just like most people like Roy Warden don't distinguish between terrorists and people from the Middle East.

[boutons_]

Here's somebody taking Lou Dobbs down for his supposed bullshit points on illegal immigration.


http://www.alternet.org/images/site/logo.gif

Lou Dobbs Spreads Vile Misinformation about Immigrants

By Amy Goodman, King Features Syndicate
Posted on December 5, 2007, Printed on December 5, 2007
http://www.alternet.org/story/69769/

Truth matters. History and context count. "You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts," the late Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan famously observed.

CNN's Lou Dobbs has migrated to a pre-eminent position in the debate on immigration in the U.S. Since he identifies himself as a journalist, he has a special responsibility to rely on facts and to correct misstatements of fact. CNN, which purports to be a news organization, touting itself as the "Most Trusted Name in News," has an equally strong obligation to its audience to tell the truth.

Dobbs was best known for anchoring CNN's "Moneyline," an early and influential program that helped create the televised financial-news genre. On "Moneyline," Dobbs featured corporate CEOs and generally lauded them.

About five years ago, Dobbs began changing his line, invoking populist rhetoric and championing the cause of the middle class. He thematically titled his coverage "War on the Middle Class" and "Broken Borders." Dobbs' signature issue of undocumented immigrants, or, as he calls them, illegal aliens, has tremendous influence on the debate nationally. So it matters if he is wrong.

On March 28, 2006, Dobbs said on his show, "And it's costing us, no one knows precisely how much, to incarcerate what is about a third of our prison population who are illegal aliens." As it turns out, the number of noncitizens incarcerated in the U.S. federal and state prisons is closer to 6 percent, not 33 percent. Note that the 6 percent includes legal immigrants as well.

On April 14, 2005, Lou Dobbs opened his show by saying: "The invasion of illegal aliens is threatening the health of many Americans. Highly contagious diseases are now crossing our borders decades after those diseases had been eradicated in this country."

CNN correspondent Christine Romans filed a report, then told Dobbs, "There have been 7,000 [cases of leprosy] in the past three years." CBS' "60 Minutes" later challenged the fact, pointing out that there had actually been 7,029 cases reported over 30 years. When Lesley Stahl confronted Dobbs on the statistic, he defended it, saying: "Well, I can tell you this. If we reported it, it's a fact."

Dobbs' reporter, Romans, said her source was "Dr. Madeleine Cosman, a respected medical lawyer and medical historian." Cosman, who died in March 2006, was a medical lawyer and staunch anti-immigrant activist. She was recorded saying publicly of Mexican men: "Recognize that most of these bastards molest girls under age 12, some as young as age 5, others aged 3, although, of course, some specialize in boys, some specialize in nuns, some are exceedingly versatile and rape little girls aged 11 and women up to age 79."

After I played the tape of Cosman for Dobbs, he conceded to me that his reporter's source, Cosman, was a "whack job."

On May 23, 2006, Dobbs aired a report on a state visit by Mexican President Vicente Fox. His correspondent, Casey Wian, called it a "Mexican military incursion" and displayed a map of the U.S. with the seven Southwest states highlighted as "Aztlan," which, Wian reported, "some militant Latino activists ... claim rightfully belongs to Mexico."

The graphic came from the Council of Conservative Citizens, which the Southern Poverty Law Center, a group that tracks hate groups, points out is the current incarnation of the old White Citizen Councils of the 1950s and 1960s, which Thurgood Marshall referred to as "the uptown Klan."

The SPLC has reported that several of Dobbs' guests and sources have had links to the CCC, such as Joe McCutchen of Protect Arkansas Now, part of the Minuteman vigilante movement, and Barbara Coe of the California Coalition for Immigration Reform. Another guest, Glenn Spencer, head of the anti-immigrant group American Patrol, speaks on the white-supremacist circuit. When CNN's Wolf Blitzer had Spencer on, he told his audience that the SPLC had designated American Patrol as a hate group. When Dobbs had him on, he never identified the connection.

In our conversation with Dobbs, "Democracy Now!" co-host Juan Gonzalez raised the issue of history, of how immigrants have been scapegoated: the Irish in the 1860s, the Chinese in the 1880s and, later, Southern Europeans. Dobbs rolled his eyes, saying, "Are you holding me responsible?"

No, and Dobbs knows better. But he must be held responsible for not bringing a historical context to this crucial discussion of immigration reform. The immigration issue will not be solved by vilifying a population. The SPLC has just released a report on the upsurge in anti-immigrant, anti-Latino violence in the U.S.

United Stations Radio Networks has just announced that Dobbs will soon be hosting a three-hour daily talk radio show. The Web site claims, "It's not about what's right and left ... it's about what's right and wrong." Let's hope that Lou Dobbs follows his own advice.

Amy Goodman is the host of the nationally syndicated radio news program, Democracy Now!

© 2007 Independent Media Institute. All rights reserved.
View this story online at: http://www.alternet.org/story/69769/

============================

Vilifying immigrants by white/"Chrisitan"/American supremacists and xenophobes, Lou is right in there with them.

Illegal immigrants are here to stay, they are extremely important to the US economy and businesses.

America the Beautiful, Beacon of Civilization and Culture.

[BradLohaus]

Read about what happened to the Mexican economy in the years before the great wave of illegal immigrants and you will see that the financial elites here, and their sidekicks in Mexico, caused the whole thing while profiting greatly, partly from our own tax dollars.

Robert Rubin, George Shultz, Henry Kissinger and everyone like them here and around the world are our true enemies. The illegal aliens themselves are just pawns in their game, providing cheap labor and establishing a large percentage of Mexican citizens on US soil to further the continental integration that started with NAFTA.

http://www.webofdebt.com/excerpts/chapter-22.php

(The author mentions "vigilante border patrols" at the start, but don't stop reading there if you don't like that; I wouldn't call citizen a vigilante just for enforcing a law that the government refuses to. She gets into the economic history in the 2nd paragraph - it's fascinating stuff.)

The late Jude Wanniski was a conservative economist who was at one time a Wall Street Journal editor and adviser to President Reagan. He cynically observed of this banker coup:

There was a big party at Morgan Stanley after the Mexican peso devaluation, people from all over Wall Street came, they drank champagne and smoked cigars and congratulated themselves on how they pulled it off and they made a fortune. These people are pirates, international pirates.

[Nbadan]

Another sickening display of anti-immigrant fever...


http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/11/30/nyregion/30journal.1-190.jpg
Giovanni Rivera, who suffered a six-inch bite wound and other injuries, has been
vilified by some of the dog’s supporters in this well-to-do Ivy League town,


t’s man versus beast in Princeton, and the town is in an uproar over a dog on death row.

The curious case of Congo, an 85-pound German shepherd sentenced to die for attacking a Honduran landscaper, is making its way through New Jersey’s courts. Protesters have packed the courtrooms here and have staged rallies waving signs that say “Free Congo!” And the landscaper, Giovanni Rivera, who suffered a six-inch bite wound and other injuries, has been vilified by some of the dog’s supporters in this well-to-do Ivy League town, who have been sending newspapers and blogs angry anti-immigrant slurs.

“The dog deserves an award,” said one posting to The Princeton Packet Web site. “One less Mexican alien is a boost to society.”

NY TIMES (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/30/nyregion/30journal.html)

[Wild Cobra]

Does anyone think people like Roy Warden distinguish between immigrants here legally and those not?....

I would say most of them do. Sure, some, if not many, don't.



How big of a factor will illegal immigration be in your vote?

Very big. We have so many problems with illegal immigrants, yes, mostly Mexican. I will not vote for a candidate that speaks of amnesty or allowing the borders to femain so easily breached.



People seem to have caught anti-immigrant fever


Again, like Ray says...

You know, a partial truth is also considered a lie by many. Remember that. People are caught up in anti-ILLEGAL immigration! Only a very small segment of our population wants to cut off immigration.

Consider this however. When most the problems people see are created by those of brown skin, they are leery of all with brown skin. In general, legal Latinos immigrants are very good people. Far more than most others in this nation. They have pretty high ethical standards. Ever talk to one, how they are, in general pissed at there own race for making things worse for them? The illegal Latino population does give the legal Latino population a bad reputation.

[Wild Cobra]

Nothing new:

Boutons repeats the lies of the left, and takes their dogma as fact:


Here's somebody taking Lou Dobbs down for his supposed bullshit points on illegal immigration.


http://www.alternet.org/images/site/logo.gif

Lou Dobbs Spreads Vile Misinformation about Immigrants

By Amy Goodman, King Features Syndicate
Posted on December 5, 2007, Printed on December 5, 2007
http://www.alternet.org/story/69769/


From Information on Criminal Aliens Incarcerated in Federal and State Prisons and Local Jails (http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05337r.pdf):


“At the federal level, the number of criminal aliens incarcerated increased from about 42,000 at the end of calendar year 2001 to about 49,000 at the end of calendar year 2004—a 15 percent increase. The percentage of all federal prisoners who are criminal aliens has remained the same over the last 3 years—about 27 percent. The majority of criminal aliens incarcerated at the end of calendar year 2004 were identified as citizens of Mexico. “

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/GOA-IllegalInmates.jpg

With the talk of amnesty and many cities becoming friendlier, it wouldn’t be a surprise if the 27% rose up in numbers. If it changed to 30%, it would be closer to a third than a quarter!

Amy is another good lying liberal. Her words cannot be trusted.

Notice that this report on the 27% is inclusive of all illegals. Amy might be talking about only the Mexican, but the latest BOP report has that at 17% if I remember right, not 6%. Also, I believe Dobbs was talking only about the federal jails. The mix could be different.

[scott]

I find it hysterically ironic how people who supposedly support the free trade of goods are so against the free trade of labor. The only illegal immigration problem this country has is the one we've created by establishing quotas on who is able to come to the "land of the free" to seek a better life for themselves.

It is no surprised that we have half-wits like mookie and boutons running around proclaiming the evils of a free market. It isn’t because there is anything wrong with the free market system, but because a large number of Americans urging for them are too stupid to know that free markets only work when they are truly free, as opposed to only free when they work in your favor.

People respond to incentives, and the incentives that immigrants are responding to is the potential for a higher standard of living. No person should be forced to accept a lower real wage simply on account of where they were born. Should any American be able to earn a higher real wage by working somewhere else, they should be able to take such an opportunity if there is a party willing to hire them on the other side. The same is true of people yearning to come to this country.

“They are stealing our jobs” yells the ignorant peanut gallery. As big of a fallacy as this is, even if they were stealing your jobs it is only because they operate at a higher level of wage productivity than you. Americans feel a sense of entitlement because they were blessed with the luck of being born in this country, as though they had anything to do with it. The immigration quotas established by our government only serve to protect the under-producing and over-paid American laborer, and result in a net decline in social welfare. But this is okay, so long as its brownie that is out of a job instead of them.

The sense of entitlement prevails throughout our society, and is evident in our substandard educational attainment rates. Is it any wonder we are severely lagging behind other industrialized nations given the protections we are granted? With no fear of having to ever compete in the global market, there is no incentive to go beyond local attainment levels.

The ironic beauty of the whole mess is that the long term solution to an immigration “problem” is to allow for the market (immigration being the rationing mechanism for the labor market) to correct itself. Let’s assume a world with only two countries, the US and Mexico. With trade restrictions (immigration quotas) in place, once a rift of inequality in terms of standard of living is in place, it can never be abolished. By the very nature of our quota system and the selection of who gets in and who doesn’t, the richer country will continue to ween the poorer’s best and brightest, while the poorer country continues to writhe away in poverty (since the trade restriction does not allow wages to equalize), thus creating even greater incentive for illegal immigration.

On the other hand, with no trade restrictions in place, real wages in the respective countries will equalize over time and the incentive to immigrate will eventually dissipate. This applies in a multiple-country model as easily as it does in the two-country model. Like any good or service, trade restrictions only serve as a disruption to the pricing and rationing mechanisms of free market economics and shift surplus away from the producers and consumers of said good or service and into hands of third parties and, worse, deadweight loss.

Of course, none of this will matter to anyone because I’m sure God hates Immigrants almost as much as he hates Fags.

[FromWayDowntown]

Nothing new:

Boutons repeats the lies of the left, and takes their dogma as fact:



From Information on Criminal Aliens Incarcerated in Federal and State Prisons and Local Jails (http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05337r.pdf):


But you haven't disproven Boutons' facts.

Your fancy little chart deals with aliens (whether legal or not -- the memorandum attached to the data specifically says that "criminal aliens" includes "noncitizens convicted of crimes while in this country legally or illegally") and only with those who are incarcerated in federal prisons -- there's no reference in that specific data (at least not one that I can see) that provides information about the number of illegal aliens who are incarcerated in local, state, and federal prisons.

As one might surmise, the number of incarcerated persons in the United States in local, state, and federal prisons is much closer to 2.25 million than to the less than 200,000 shown in your graphic. Based on that nearly 2.25 million number, I've twice just today read the 6% number. Working from the 2,258,983 number that the Bureau of Justice (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm#related) has published as a total prison/jail population at the end of 2006, the 30% argument would require proof that upwards of 675,000 illegal aliens are incarcerated in US facilities.

[JoeChalupa]

I find it hysterically ironic how people who supposedly support the free trade of goods are so against the free trade of labor. The only illegal immigration problem this country has is the one we've created by establishing quotas on who is able to come to the "land of the free" to seek a better life for themselves.

It is no surprised that we have half-wits like mookie and boutons running around proclaiming the evils of a free market. It isn’t because there is anything wrong with the free market system, but because a large number of Americans urging for them are too stupid to know that free markets only work when they are truly free, as opposed to only free when they work in your favor.

People respond to incentives, and the incentives that immigrants are responding to is the potential for a higher standard of living. No person should be forced to accept a lower real wage simply on account of where they were born. Should any American be able to earn a higher real wage by working somewhere else, they should be able to take such an opportunity if there is a party willing to hire them on the other side. The same is true of people yearning to come to this country.

“They are stealing our jobs” yells the ignorant peanut gallery. As big of a fallacy as this is, even if they were stealing your jobs it is only because they operate at a higher level of wage productivity than you. Americans feel a sense of entitlement because they were blessed with the luck of being born in this country, as though they had anything to do with it. The immigration quotas established by our government only serve to protect the under-producing and over-paid American laborer, and result in a net decline in social welfare. But this is okay, so long as its brownie that is out of a job instead of them.

The sense of entitlement prevails throughout our society, and is evident in our substandard educational attainment rates. Is it any wonder we are severely lagging behind other industrialized nations given the protections we are granted? With no fear of having to ever compete in the global market, there is no incentive to go beyond local attainment levels.

The ironic beauty of the whole mess is that the long term solution to an immigration “problem” is to allow for the market (immigration being the rationing mechanism for the labor market) to correct itself. Let’s assume a world with only two countries, the US and Mexico. With trade restrictions (immigration quotas) in place, once a rift of inequality in terms of standard of living is in place, it can never be abolished. By the very nature of our quota system and the selection of who gets in and who doesn’t, the richer country will continue to ween the poorer’s best and brightest, while the poorer country continues to writhe away in poverty (since the trade restriction does not allow wages to equalize), thus creating even greater incentive for illegal immigration.

On the other hand, with no trade restrictions in place, real wages in the respective countries will equalize over time and the incentive to immigrate will eventually dissipate. This applies in a multiple-country model as easily as it does in the two-country model. Like any good or service, trade restrictions only serve as a disruption to the pricing and rationing mechanisms of free market economics and shift surplus away from the producers and consumers of said good or service and into hands of third parties and, worse, deadweight loss.

Of course, none of this will matter to anyone because I’m sure God hates Immigrants almost as much as he hates Fags.

I concur. Excellent post.

[violentkitten]

i never realized there were so many americans willing to dig ditches, hang drywall all day in texas in july, or make beds and clean toilets.

people act as though companies are picking up jose or hector off the street and bringing them to the office to reconcile a few accounts, finish up a design, or draw up a contract for a deal.

immigrants aren't taking the jobs of hard working americans. they are doing the shitty jobs that most americans regard themselves as above taking.

in fact most americans have a shitty work ethic nowadays. the american dream has morphed from the opportunity to work hard to earn and mold the life you want into a birthright to avoid hard work at all costs but still enjoy all of the benefits as if you actually earned it.

most american kids shun any discipline that requires any serious effort at studying. large numbers are socially promoted in grades K-12 and those who make it to the university level have the benefit of generous curves in their courses. forget about science and engineering, we'll leave that to diligent foreign students who bust their asses and go through a lot of shit just to have the opportunities that their american counterparts shun and piss away.

the immigration "issue" does allow for middle aged white dudes to engage in some thinly veiled racism under the guise of concern for constitutional liberties and the economic well being of their countrymen. but just like the nonsensical contempt displayed towards a major retailer like wal-mart who reduces the cost of living for many, so too must many morons rail against a sizable immigrant work force that bears the work burden they are unwilling to shoulder and who also helps to keep the price of goods and services their work creates down.

[JoeChalupa]

:tu

[Purple & Gold]

Consider this however. When most the problems people see are created by those of brown skin, they are leery of all with brown skin. In general, legal Latinos immigrants are very good people. Far more than most others in this nation. They have pretty high ethical standards. Ever talk to one, how they are, in general pissed at there own race for making things worse for them? The illegal Latino population does give the legal Latino population a bad reputation.

This deserved a good :lol :lol



BTW did anybody post how the illegal immigrant saved a boys life after a car crash killed his mother and left him stranded in the desert?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22013748/

[Holt's Cat]

WC likes the "good" brownies.

[xrayzebra]

i never realized there were so many americans willing to dig ditches, hang drywall all day in texas in july, or make beds and clean toilets.

people act as though companies are picking up jose or hector off the street and bringing them to the office to reconcile a few accounts, finish up a design, or draw up a contract for a deal.

immigrants aren't taking the jobs of hard working americans. they are doing the shitty jobs that most americans regard themselves as above taking.

in fact most americans have a shitty work ethic nowadays. the american dream has morphed from the opportunity to work hard to earn and mold the life you want into a birthright to avoid hard work at all costs but still enjoy all of the benefits as if you actually earned it.

most american kids shun any discipline that requires any serious effort at studying. large numbers are socially promoted in grades K-12 and those who make it to the university level have the benefit of generous curves in their courses. forget about science and engineering, we'll leave that to diligent foreign students who bust their asses and go through a lot of shit just to have the opportunities that their american counterparts shun and piss away.

the immigration "issue" does allow for middle aged white dudes to engage in some thinly veiled racism under the guise of concern for constitutional liberties and the economic well being of their countrymen. but just like the nonsensical contempt displayed towards a major retailer like wal-mart who reduces the cost of living for many, so too must many morons rail against a sizable immigrant work force that bears the work burden they are unwilling to shoulder and who also helps to keep the price of goods and services their work creates down.

Who in the world do you think did these jobs before
these most wonderful illegals came here? Mother Goose?

You need to open your eyes and look around too and see
all the skilled jobs these illegals are doing. And they
depress the wages for the skilled and unskilled workers
because they will work for less.

Oh, and the bipartisan GAO says they are costing
our country more than they are putting into it in
taxes.

And I still haven't figured out why someone jumping
line to get into our country should be given any
consideration. If we need all these workers, how bout we just increase the
LEGAL immigrant quotas for those that want to come
into the country legally.

[BonnerDynasty]

Why should Americans pick grapes when they can just get a check in the mail from Billary.

[JoeChalupa]

Why should Americans pick grapes when they can just get a check in the mail from Billary.

Or Rudy or Mitt.

[JoeChalupa]

Who in the world do you think did these jobs before
these most wonderful illegals came here? Mother Goose?

You need to open your eyes and look around too and see
all the skilled jobs these illegals are doing. And they
depress the wages for the skilled and unskilled workers
because they will work for less.

Oh, and the bipartisan GAO says they are costing
our country more than they are putting into it in
taxes.

And I still haven't figured out why someone jumping
line to get into our country should be given any
consideration. If we need all these workers, how bout we just increase the
LEGAL immigrant quotas for those that want to come
into the country legally.

My parents worked the migrant fields for years back n the 50's and 60's and I don't ever remember anyone else fighting for the jobs. Employers consider them cause THEY WILL DO THE JOB. Quite simple.

[Extra Stout]

If we need all these workers, how bout we just increase the
LEGAL immigrant quotas for those that want to come
into the country legally.
Because that would make sense. See, you're making the mistake of thinking in terms of what is in the best interest of the entire population, rather than just the wealthy elites. If we allow these workers in as legal immigrants:

1) The employers have to pay them more
2) All our worker protection laws apply to them
3) Employers have to pay payroll taxes for them
4) Employers can't use threat of deportation to coerce them into putting themselves in danger
5) They could unionize

Keeping them illegal, but staying lax on enforcement, provides the cut-rate disenfranchised labor American businesses demand!

[violentkitten]

Who in the world do you think did these jobs before
these most wonderful illegals came here? Mother Goose?

Other minorities. The last time an illegal took a job from a white man was probably before Man made it to the moon.




You need to open your eyes and look around too and see
all the skilled jobs these illegals are doing. And they
depress the wages for the skilled and unskilled workers
because they will work for less.


How much skill does it take to dig a ditch? Clean a toilet? Clean dishes?



Oh, and the bipartisan GAO says they are costing
our country more than they are putting into it in
taxes.


Probably.




And I still haven't figured out why someone jumping
line to get into our country should be given any
consideration. If we need all these workers, how bout we just increase the
LEGAL immigrant quotas for those that want to come
into the country legally.

Why on Earth would we want to keep out hard working people willing to work shit jobs for shit pay? Do you sprout a woody when you can drive by a job site and see a bunch of white faces?

[Extra Stout]

You need to open your eyes and look around too and see
all the skilled jobs these illegals are doing. And they
depress the wages for the skilled and unskilled workers
because they will work for less.
They work for less at first, until they realize what their market value is.

When that happens, I don't know why the contractors don't just go up to Michigan and hire some of those laid-off workers with 20 years' experience who are forced to work at Wal-Mart because all the mills closed. Not all of them are willing to relocate, but some are.

[Extra Stout]

How much skill does it take to dig a ditch? Clean a toilet? Clean dishes?Not much, but it takes a fair amount of skill to be a good welder, machinist, woodworker, electrician, etc.

They're becoming skilled craftsmen now, because this generation of American youth increasingly thinks any kind of blue-collar work is beneath it.

[violentkitten]

Not much, but it takes a fair amount of skill to be a good welder, machinist, woodworker, electrician, etc.

They're becoming skilled craftsmen now, because this generation of American youth increasingly thinks any kind of blue-collar work is beneath it.

sure, american kids are supposed to make more than their parents and have more prestigious jobs, by God.

it's that studying and working your way up thing that seems to get in their way.

how many times is it the child's fault for their educational and/or professional failings? johnny can't help it he has adhd.

oh, and those kids at the science fair are non-pussy getting nerds, not like johnny. johnny also can name the starting qb and rb for the 'boys.

[Extra Stout]

sure, american kids are supposed to make more than their parents and have more prestigious jobs, by God.

it's that studying and working your way up thing that seems to get in their way.

how many times is it the child's fault for their educational and/or professional failings? johnny can't help it he has adhd.

oh, and those kids at the science fair are non-pussy getting nerds, not like johnny. johnny also can name the starting qb and rb for the 'boys.
What's happening happened to every prosperous country that ever was. They always lose their edge and rest on their laurels.

[Spawn]

i never realized there were so many americans willing to dig ditches, hang drywall all day in texas in july, or make beds and clean toilets.

people act as though companies are picking up jose or hector off the street and bringing them to the office to reconcile a few accounts, finish up a design, or draw up a contract for a deal.

immigrants aren't taking the jobs of hard working americans. they are doing the shitty jobs that most americans regard themselves as above taking.

in fact most americans have a shitty work ethic nowadays. the american dream has morphed from the opportunity to work hard to earn and mold the life you want into a birthright to avoid hard work at all costs but still enjoy all of the benefits as if you actually earned it.

most american kids shun any discipline that requires any serious effort at studying. large numbers are socially promoted in grades K-12 and those who make it to the university level have the benefit of generous curves in their courses. forget about science and engineering, we'll leave that to diligent foreign students who bust their asses and go through a lot of shit just to have the opportunities that their american counterparts shun and piss away.

the immigration "issue" does allow for middle aged white dudes to engage in some thinly veiled racism under the guise of concern for constitutional liberties and the economic well being of their countrymen. but just like the nonsensical contempt displayed towards a major retailer like wal-mart who reduces the cost of living for many, so too must many morons rail against a sizable immigrant work force that bears the work burden they are unwilling to shoulder and who also helps to keep the price of goods and services their work creates down.

It really gets me when people say that illegal immigrants take jobs that Americans don't want. You cannot tell me that any American man would not take a job if it meant putting a roof over his and his family's head and food on their table. It is not the back-breaking job that they don't want, it is the shit pay for these jobs that they don't want that many illegals will jump at. 3 and 4 dollars an hour that's slavery.

[violentkitten]

It really gets me when people say that illegal immigrants take jobs that Americans don't want. You cannot tell me that any American man would not take a job if it meant putting a roof over his and his family's head and food on their table.

bullshit. there's no shame in taking assistance. there's apparently also no shame in public begging anymore.




It is not the back-breaking job that they don't want, it is the shit pay for these jobs that they don't want that many illegals will jump at. 3 and 4 dollars an hour that's slavery.

sure, americans want to be paid excessively for menial tasks. somebody is willing to do it for less. the rest of us benefit. are americans afraid of competition now?

[Nbadan]

http://images.chron.com/photos/2007/11/16/8785174/311xInlineGallery.jpg
...Shoots people in the back....

Police say Horn shot 2 men in the back
1 man had been deported in '99; officials looking at possible ties to a burglary ring
By CINDY HORSWELL
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle


Two men suspected of burglarizing a neighbor's home were shot in the back by Pasadena homeowner Joe Horn after the suspects ventured into his front yard, Pasadena police disclosed Friday.

Also, for the first time, investigators revealed the Nov. 14 shooting was witnessed by a plainclothes Pasadena detective, who had pulled up in an unmarked car seconds before Horn fired three shots from his 12-guage shotgun.

The detective's name was not released as the new details emerged about the controversial shootings that have outraged minority activists but also brought an outpouring of support from others.

"We have now documented a summary of what we think happened. We will turn it over to the district attorney in a couple of weeks after we finish our extensive quality control review," said Pasadena Police Department Captain A.H. "Bud" Corbett. The Harris County district attorney will then present the case to a grand jury to determine if any charges should be filed against Horn.

The suspects were illegal immigrants from Colombia, and one man had been deported nearly 10 years ago, authorities said.

Authorities have said they are investigating whether Diego Ortiz, 30, and Hernando Riascos Torres, 48, were part of a crime ring linked to burglaries and the use of fake immigration documents.

The two — killed by Horn after he said they were trying to steal his neighbor's property — were in the country illegally, according to Leticia Zamarripa, a spokeswoman for the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

Horn, 61, shot Ortiz and Torres, who went by the alias Miguel Antonio DeJesus. Horn called police after hearing breaking glass. He ignored an operator's warning to not go outside with his gun.

Corbett said Torres was deported to Colombia in 1999 after a 1994 cocaine-related conviction. He was on parole until 2017, Corbett said.

Police found a Puerto Rican identification card on Ortiz. He had two aliases.

Torres had identification cards from Colombia, Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic. He had three aliases.

State and federal authorities are investigating whether the two men, who lived in southwest Houston, were involved in the crime ring, Corbett said.

Police found almost $2,000 in cash in a white bag the men allegedly took from the home in the 7400 block of Timberline before Horn shot them.

Investigators also are trying to determine whether the men knew about the home or family before burglarizing it.

"I don't believe the victim was a random choice ... but there's no evidence of a relationship either," between the homeowners and suspects, Corbett said.

Horn told the operator that he did not know his neighbors well. Neighbors said the family moved into the home next to Horn's house about four months ago.

"I can't comment," a woman at the home said over the phone Thursday night.

A source told police that Ortiz and Torres burglarized the home, in part, because the homeowners were immigrants.

"They targeted foreign-born people," Corbett said. "They felt they were easier victims."

Little is known about the homeowners, who have Vietnamese surnames.

Neighbors said they own a small business near their Village Grove East subdivision.

Records filed with the Office of the Secretary of State of Texas show that the family owns a dry cleaning business on Fairmont Parkway.

Horn has received an outpouring of support from some neighbors, friends and strangers, but the incident also has outraged activists and other neighbors.

Activists and Horn supporters clashed Sunday when they staged dueling protests outside his home. The homeowners association is trying to prevent more protests from being held in the subdivision.

[BradLohaus]

^ There is no way that 12 people on a Texas jury will unanimously agree to send that man to prison.

[Purple & Gold]

If we allow these workers in as legal immigrants:

1) The employers have to pay them more
2) All our worker protection laws apply to them
3) Employers have to pay payroll taxes for them
4) Employers can't use threat of deportation to coerce them into putting themselves in danger
5) They could unionize

Keeping them illegal, but staying lax on enforcement, provides the cut-rate disenfranchised labor American businesses demand!

Ding...Ding...Ding... We have a winner.


Big Business/U.S. Govt. needs illegal labor. If they really wanted to they could stop it by going after the employers with fines and what not. Illegal immigrants are not hiring themselves. If there are no jobs they won't come. But the fact is that the Govt. needs this form of cheap labor and just haphazardly throws money at it to keep their voters happy. They could actually collect revenue and put an end to it by aggressively targeting the businesses. But yet they choose not too.

[violentkitten]

http://images.chron.com/photos/2007/11/16/8785174/311xInlineGallery.jpg
...Shoots people in the back....

Police say Horn shot 2 men in the back
1 man had been deported in '99; officials looking at possible ties to a burglary ring
By CINDY HORSWELL
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle


that's a rather poor example.