The last inbounds play by the Mavs: legal?

[ShoogarBear]

The recap: Howard (?) is throwing the ball in from the right baseline with Manu defending. Dirk cus left-to-right out of bounds underneath the basket, then cuts between the inbounder and Manu, bumping Manu off the baseline slightly. Bruce, who was supposed to be guarding Dirk, gets caught up in no man's land in the lane, and Dirk pops free in the right corner for a wide-open look on the pass.

If that was the design, it's brilliant, but is it legal? According to the NBA Rulebook, Rule 8 ("The Throw-In"), Section IIIa:


Until the passed ball has crossed the plane of the boundary, no player shall have any part of his person over the boundary line and teammates shall not occupy positions parallel or adjacent to the baseline if an opponent desires one of those positions. The defensive man shall have the right to be between his man and the basket. It seems to me that both of those were violated when Dirk a) circled out of bounds and then b) cut in front of Manu. Although it seems it would have been equally illegal, although maybe even sneakier, if he had gone behind the inbounds passer.

Anyone seen this before?

[THE SIXTH MAN]

Good point. I've never seen that before and for that split second I tried thinking if I had ever seen a play like that before.

[T Park]

Dirk got slightly pushed out by Elson, but still, I don't think he reestablished himself totally before getting back in.

[hanto03]

Good eye dude. I wondered how dirt was so wide open in the corner.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

and where the hell was bowen on that last play?

[ShoogarBear]

Although I'd need to see it again, I'm pretty sure Dirk had re-established himself before getting the pass. My question is him going out of bounds in the first place.

[Kori Ellis]

and where the hell was bowen on that last play?

He was where he was supposed to be. It was Elson guarding airspace and out of position on the last play.

[ShoogarBear]

and where the hell was bowen on that last play?As I said above, Bowen got caught looking when Dirk went out of bounds. He was kind of loitering in the paint, I think waiting for Dirk to cut in to the basket. When Dirk went to the corner Bowen was still in the paint.

[2centsworth]

He was where he was supposed to be. It was Elson guarding airspace and out of position on the last play.
Look at the play again, it was Finley who was truly out of position.

[Kori Ellis]

Until the passed ball has crossed the plane of the boundary, no player shall have any part of his person over the boundary line

Is that part referencing the passer? The defender? Or anyone?

[Hemotivo]

elson sucks

[Tippecanoe]

there was also a moving screen by the mavs that allowed dirk to break free

[Kori Ellis]

Look at the play again, it was Finley who was truly out of position.

I looked at it. And saw Elson getting ripped by Bowen and Tim about f'ing up.

[SenorSpur]

He was where he was supposed to be. It was Elson guarding airspace and out of position on the last play.

Wow! I should've known.

Still someone still should've rolled over and contested that shot. No way you leave THAT GUY wide open. He hits that shot, and we're having a very different conversation right now.

[Solid D]

I thought it was a legal play but I'd have to look at it again. Elson probably should have been on Dirk but Elson looked and saw Manu over there near the corner and went back to protect the right side of the lane. If Elson had run to Dirk, he would have left the whole right side of the lane open for the cutter.

[SequSpur]

> 5 seconds also.

[Kori Ellis]

Wow! I should've known.

Still someone still should've rolled over and contested that shot. No way you leave THAT GUY wide open. He hits that shot, and we're having a very different conversation right now.

Bowen and Elson were supposed to switch. Elson didn't switch and that's why he was just standing there in relative proximity to Bruce.

That's why as soon as Dirk missed, Bowen was tapping Elson on the back and then "explaining" to him that he f'd up and didn't switch.

[ShoogarBear]

Is that part referencing the passer? The defender? Or anyone?I quoted it verbatim. It's not very well-worded, but this is my interpretation:

Once the ref hands the ball to the inbounds passer, the passer is the only guy who can be out of bounds. Nobody else on either team can be.

Now, the rule book makes an exception after a made basket, which most of us are aware of:


After a score, field goal or free throw, the latter coming as the result of a personal foul, any player of the team not credited with the score shall put the ball into play from any point out-of-bounds at the endline of the court where the point(s) were scored. He may pass the ball to a teammate behind the endline; however, the five-second throw-in rule applies. This rule also applies to the player of the team with possession at the start of the second, third and fourth periods.

[Hemotivo]

manu was there too

raising arms like inthe 0.4 shot

[2centsworth]

I looked at it. And saw Elson getting ripped by Bowen and Tim about f'ing up.
at first glance yes, but look at Finley giving up position under the basket. Cisco saw that and guarded the Rim. If Cisco runs at Dirk, there's an easy two down low. Cisco made the right decision IMO, though he was suppossed to run at Dirk.

[m33p0]

the league needs to review that play

[ShoogarBear]

Bowen and Elson were supposed to switch. Elson didn't switch and that's why he was just standing there in relative proximity to Bruce.

That's why as soon as Dirk missed, Bowen was tapping Elson on the back and then "explaining" to him that he f'd up and didn't switch.That makes sense. Except how are you supposed to switch off on a guy when he running out of bounds behind a wall of players?

[Kori Ellis]

at first glance yes, but look at Finley giving up position under the basket. Cisco saw that and guarded the Rim. If Cisco runs at Dirk, there's an easy two down low. Cisco made the right decision IMO, though he was suppossed to run at Dirk.

He didn't really guard the rim though :lol He just stood in no man's land. There was a pick - he was supposed to switch. That's part of Spurs basics and something that he messes up a lot. Bowen and Duncan both talked to him about it as the game ended.

[Kori Ellis]

That makes sense. Except how are you supposed to switch off on a guy when he running out of bounds behind a wall of players?

I don't know about the running out of bounds part :lol When it was happening, I was thinking what the hell? But I'm really not sure of that rule at all.

[violentkitten]

They cheated and they still can't beat the Spurs. With Duncan out.

:smokin

[LaMarcus Bryant]

Very Very sad that Elson is this stupid when it comes to his job, his profession, his livelihood. Very sad. But shoog, you bring up a very important subject.

So what you are saying is that Dirk had no right to cut in between Ginobili and Howard after he went out of bounds, correct?

[ShoogarBear]

When I saw it live, I thought "you can't do that!", but I wasn't sure. and after only one replay some of my details may be wrong. If anyone has a way to mount a youtube, I'd be most grateful.

[T Park]

Elson was having alot of things "explained" to him tonight.

Fucker is dumber than snot.

[Solid D]

Elson may have missed some assignments tonight...but his block on Terry with 3.5 seconds left was HUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!

[2centsworth]

He didn't really guard the rim though :lol He just stood in no man's land. There was a pick - he was supposed to switch. That's part of Spurs basics and something that he messes up a lot. Bowen and Duncan both talked to him about it as the game ended.
I already said he was suppossed to switch, so he screwed up there. However, the play took long enough to develop where he still could have run out there to contest the shot. He didn't, because IMO Finley was giving up an easy two. Bowen and Duncan knew what Cisco was suppossed to do too, but I wonder if they saw Fin giving up the basket.

My point is Fin was brutal that last play.

[Kori Ellis]

Elson may have missed some assignments tonight...but his block on Terry with 3.5 seconds left was HUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!

:tu

[ShoogarBear]

Elson may have missed some assignments tonight...but his block on Terry with 3.5 seconds left was HUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!It was gigantic. And I'm not going to give Elson crap for the last play because even David freaking Robinson might have gone, "what the hell?"

[Kori Ellis]

Off topic almost but ... this is a game that I wouldn't mind the Spurs showing the league in regards to the elbows being thrown. What was with the Mavs? Whether they were up or down, they were throwing 'bows.

[2centsworth]

they have no class. the karate chop by diop on Manu is deserving of a two game w/o pay.

[T Park]

The Mavs were pissed off for some reason tonight.

Terry was throwing elbows and on one drive about kicked Elson's nuts into the baseline Bums.

[SequSpur]

Elson fuckin came through tonight. The Spurs won, shit, I didn't see anything wrong.

[Kori Ellis]

Dirk even threw an elbow :lol so you know something was up.

[ShoogarBear]

Elson fuckin came through tonight. The Spurs won, shit, I didn't see anything wrong.Nice that you were able to see anything, period.

http://marshallbrain.com/gif/phone-book1.jpg

[whottt]

Elson fuckin came through tonight. The Spurs won, shit, I didn't see anything wrong.


I did...

Vbookie:

SequSpur: $1000 other




And I don't know why you guys are surprised about Elson...Pop doesn't play him in these situations usually..

Stop drinking timvp's coolaid.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

Off topic almost but ... this is a game that I wouldn't mind the Spurs showing the league in regards to the elbows being thrown. What was with the Mavs? Whether they were up or down, they were throwing 'bows.

That is what I am saying!! They were being slightly dirty-esque physical style from the start, which is why Bowen got pissed very early in the game. If you read his facial and body language, he got UBER pissed very early by the shit they called on us compared to all the elbows and uncalled shit by the Mavs.

[SequSpur]

:lmao

I have no bookie money left....

[LaMarcus Bryant]

I did...

Vbookie:

SequSpur: $1000 other




And I don't know why you guys are surprised about Elson...Pop doesn't play him in these situations usually..

Stop drinking timvp's coolaid.


CLASSIX. If there was no whottt this site would be called timvptalk.com

[easjer]

Dirk even threw an elbow :lol so you know something was up.

Maybe they expected it to be easier? They didn't play particularly well in the first half (or the second, come to think of it). With the poor shooting and stupid turnovers, they should have had a double digit lead at the half. Frustration that the Spurs were playing them hard? Knowing that if they lost it would consistently repeated throughout the season that they lost to a Duncan-less Spurs team, and that would shake their overly inflated confidence about their awesome ability to obliterate the Spurs?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Re: the elbows.

What do you expect? The Mavwrecks were expecting to waltz into SA and whip the Spurs without TD playing, and then Manu and Parker bitch slapped their sorry asses back to Highland Park.

Think back to Miami owning them in the Finals or GS last year, and they became a bunch of entitled punk ass bitches. They are the embodiment of their elitist, entitlement prick ass city.

Fun to watch the meltdown :tu

[carina_gino20]

somebody do a video montage of all the cheap shots those guys threw during the game.

[mikekim]

Yeah...i thought the play was very weird.

About that...I always thought it was like football (american football). If you go out of bounds, you're out of the play. And I thought in basketball, that someone else had to touch the ball (probably have to do more...like "establish possession") before you got it back -- if you go out of bounds, you can't be the first person to touch the ball. I think that's sort of how it works in football.

I don't know how or why I applied the same logic to basketball but I did, and I've always thought that. But I think it's right.

Which makes the mavs play ILLEGAL! Avery...should've stayed an assistant coach -- with the Spurs

[Budkin]

I just watched the last play a few times. Bruce got called on the screen, Elson gave Dirk a little push out of bounds but never switched onto him. Dirk practically ran all the way out to the first row of chairs before cutting back to the corner. I'm not positive if it's illegal but I've never seen anyone do that. Elson fucked up for sure, but thank God he didn't make that 3.

[J.T.]

Yeah...i thought the play was very weird.

About that...I always thought it was like football (american football). If you go out of bounds, you're out of the play.

I believe, in the NFL at least, that you can go out of bounds on the sideline without the ball and come back in to the play as long as you establish yourself in the field of play first.

[Hemotivo]

look at the elbow of stack
http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=u3HZZdYs1c4

[T Park]

And I don't know why you guys are surprised about Elson

Uh, Elson, other than that block, was absolutely HORRID.

I like Elson, but tonight, he was god awful.

[K-State Spur]

I believe, in the NFL at least, that you can go out of bounds on the sideline without the ball and come back in to the play as long as you establish yourself in the field of play first.

incorrect. in the nfl, if you go out of bounds for any reason, you can't be the first person to touch the ball.

in ncaa, if you are forced out of bounds by the defender, you can come back in and make a play on the ball so long as you re-establish.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

Re: the elbows.

What do you expect? The Mavwrecks were expecting to waltz into SA and whip the Spurs without TD playing, and then Manu and Parker bitch slapped their sorry asses back to Highland Park.

Think back to Miami owning them in the Finals or GS last year, and they became a bunch of entitled punk ass bitches. They are the embodiment of their elitist, entitlement prick ass city.

Fun to watch the meltdown :tu


Best AHF quote of all time? Or just this year?

[mikekim]

I believe, in the NFL at least, that you can go out of bounds on the sideline without the ball and come back in to the play as long as you establish yourself in the field of play first.

really? I remember back in jr. high football I was told, as a receiver, to never go out of bounds because it takes you out of the play. Now, these were of course Jr. High coaches as well.

[FromWayDowntown]

When I saw it live, I thought "you can't do that!", but I wasn't sure. and after only one replay some of my details may be wrong. If anyone has a way to mount a youtube, I'd be most grateful.

For whatever it's worth, I had the same thought. My explanation to myself (short of just simply acknowledging that the officiating was curious at times tonight) was that Dirk didn't screen anyone while out of bounds -- though it certainly seemed from a distance that he might have rubbed Manu -- and without a screen, there wasn't going to be a call.

[mikekim]

content moved to manu dunk on diop thread

[ShoogarBear]

For whatever it's worth, I had the same thought. My explanation to myself (short of just simply acknowledging that the officiating was curious at times tonight) was that Dirk didn't screen anyone while out of bounds -- though it certainly seemed from a distance that he might have rubbed Manu -- and without a screen, there wasn't going to be a call.He definitely came into contact with Manu coming back inbounds. It wasn't much, but it was there.


About that...I always thought it was like football (american football). If you go out of bounds, you're out of the play. And I thought in basketball, that someone else had to touch the ball (probably have to do more...like "establish possession") before you got it back -- if you go out of bounds, you can't be the first person to touch the ball. I think that's sort of how it works in football.
During live play you can run out of bounds all you want. You just have to establish inbounds position before you touch the ball. But this was during a dead ball.

[mikekim]

During live play you can run out of bounds all you want. You just have to establish inbounds position before you touch the ball. But this was during a dead ball.

Sort of another issue...but what if you're dribbling and you lose the ball, run after it, toss the ball in bounds while flying out of bounds, then come back in and resume dribbling? That's gotta be illegal.

But I'm pretty sure you were talking about off-the-ball movement, like in the mav's inbounds play.

[FromWayDowntown]

He definitely came into contact with Manu coming back inbounds. It wasn't much, but it was there.

I couldn't tell from where I was standing.

Of course, even if it had been a textbook violation, I'm certain that tonight's crew wasn't about to call it. Frankly, I was only mildly surprised that Salvatore didn't come up with some obscure rule to give the Mavs .4 to shoot again after Dirk's miss. I won't ever blame outcomes on officials, but damn, those guys were horrendous tonight, particularly, I thought, in that 4th quarter.

[T Park]

I personally didn't let the officials bother me, cause, well, Salvatore was there.

Hes about 3 steps ahead of violet and the others.

[FromWayDowntown]

I personally didn't let the officials bother me, cause, well, Salvatore was there.

Hes about 3 steps ahead of violet and the others.

That's a wise way to approach the game. I was pleased that the Spurs persevered through what I thought were some pretty bad calls and found a way to in the game -- proof positive of my general point that teams decide games, even when officials are bad.

[2centsworth]

proof positive of my general point that teams decide games, even when officials are bad then why all the Donaghy commotion if refs don't matter?

[LaMarcus Bryant]

proof positive of my general point that teams decide games, even when officials are bad.


Amen brotha. That's definitely the truth. But I find it interesting I was not alone in thinking the officiating was "curious"...

[jcrod]

Elson may have missed some assignments tonight...but his block on Terry with 3.5 seconds left was HUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!

Yep, exactly. Kind of glad Fab had fouled out, or he would've been there waiting to try to take a charge.

[jmard5]

Off topic almost but ... this is a game that I wouldn't mind the Spurs showing the league in regards to the elbows being thrown. What was with the Mavs? Whether they were up or down, they were throwing 'bows.

Parker might have noticed that too, or am I reading this article wrong...

----------
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/viewcast/2007/12/05/index.html?contestId=22638&vendorId=2007120524&vendorVisitTeam=6&vendorHomeTeam=24&pageType=recap

The matchup between the Texas rivals was physical at times, but both teams said it was just a result of the type of intense play that should be expected when they meet.

''That's just good, tough basketball. I'm sure that's the way they play, and so do we,'' Terry said.

With 7:50 left in the first half Parker fell to the floor after running the court alongside Terry on a fast break. Terry was called for a clear-path foul and Parker, apparently OK, hit two free throws. Terry also got a technical early in the third quarter.

''It's always that fine line between physical and all those extra hits we don't need,'' Parker said. ''You know, it was just a physical game. That's it.''

----------

[mikekim]

''It's always that fine line between physical and all those extra hits we don't need,'' Parker said. ''You know, it was just a physical game. That's it.''

----------

Nicely put.

[jmard5]

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3143611&categoryId=2459788&n8pe6c=2

Just saw the clip of that last play from ESPN's video. Elson was tentative to leave his spot since he was kind of jostling for position under the basket with #5 Josh Howard.

That could have been an easy 2 had Dirk found a way to dump the ball into Howard since Finley was way out of the rotation.

Ginobili however contested Nowitzki's shot and probably has had his heart stopped for a second after that. You could see him at the sidelines watching Nowitzki's 3-ball heading toward the basket.

He could easily have said "oh f&ck..." in Spanish.

[ShoogarBear]

Thanks for the link.

I'd like to see somebody explain how that play is legal in the context of the written rule. Both Dirk being OOB and him jostling Manu when he came inbounds.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

He could easily have said "oh f&ck..." in Spanish.


me and manu were on the same page :lol

[GSH]

Sorry, didn't see this thread before I posted mine. You haven't seen that play before because it isn't legal...for several reasons. I listed my reasons below, and included text from the NBA's rules below that. (But reason #1 is enough all by itself.)

1. An offensive player can't leave the floor on the endline in the frontcourt for the purpose of setting a screen. No question Nitwitzki stepped out the endline. No question that he screened Ginobili off the guy making the throw-in. And he had to step out of bounds, to keep from completely running him over. It's specifically illegal. The fact that he kept running to the corner is immaterial.
2. The rule states that until the throw-in has passed the plane of the boundary "no person" shall have any part of his body over the boundary line. Nitwitzki didn't just reach over the plane, he stepped over the boundary.
3. The throw-in was made as the result of an out-of-bounds, which means the Mavs had to designate a person to throw-in, and he was only allowed to take a single step. The ball became live when it was placed in his hands, and I'm pretty sure Nitwitzki was not entitled to enter that "box" where the thow-in was being made, without a time-out being called. (Different from a throw-in after a made basket, where they can run along the baseline, or even pass to another player out of bounds.)
4. You could make a case that the moment Nitwitzki passed between Ginobili and the player making the throw-in, he "occupied a position adjacent to the baseline" that his opponent wanted. Ginobili was entitled to the spot - Nitwitzki wasn't.

From the NBA Rules:

Section XIV—Offensive Screen Set Out-of-Bounds
An offensive player shall not leave the playing area of the floor on the endline in the frontcourt for the purpose of setting a screen.
Section X—Screen
A screen is the legal action of a player who, without causing undue contact, delays or prevents an opponent from reaching a desired position.
3. Screening
When a player screens in front of or at the side of a stationary opponent, he may be as close as he desires providing he does not make contact.

RULE NO. 8—OUT-OF-BOUNDS AND THROW-IN
e. After the ball is out-of-bounds, the team shall designate a player to make the throwin. He shall make the throw-in at the spot out-of-bounds nearest where the ball crossed the boundary. The designated thrower-in shall not be changed unless the offensive team makes a substitution or there is a regular or 20-second timeout.

Section III—The Throw-In
a. The throw-in starts when the ball is at the disposal of a player entitled to the throw-in. He shall release the ball inbounds within 5 seconds from the time the throw-in starts. Until the passed ball has crossed the plane of the boundary, no player shall have any part of his person over the boundary line and teammates shall not occupy positions parallel or adjacent to the baseline if an opponent desires one of those positions. The defensive man shall have the right to be between his man and the basket.

[whottt]

I've said it from day 1 that Elson is more effective than a lot of bigs to play for the Spurs just because he is big, can jump, and he is so fucking fast.

And tonight that opinion was seconded by a coach in the post game...they said the entire reason the defense worked so well tonight was because of Elson's athleticism, and, ability to guard anyone on the floor. He may not ever master the schemes...but physically he wreaks fucking havock...even if his head is entirely up his ass as he does it...just because he's so damn fast and so damn big.

I don't think people realize just how fucking fast Elson is...although I will admit Pop does, because he made note of it recently in a post game as well.



I didn't see the game ending play...but I've seen every bigman in history miss a rotation on a game ending shot like that...including Tim Duncan. It happens.


Anyone that doesn't see the way Elson fucks stuff up for the other team, even at his most clueless, has got tunnel vision of hate.




You aren't going to get David Robinson for 2 million a year...and Elson is what he is...but anyone that doesn't like having a guy like that on the roster...I just don't get it. He can shoot, he can dunk, he can block shots, he can rebound, he can jump, he can run, he can hit his ft, and he can defend, on the perimeter even...I think he's even got a post up game. He's also got a good attitude.

IF he did all that stuff well game in and game out...he wouldn't be on our team, he'd the be the franchise player on some other team and probably the best player in the NBA. For 2 mil a year he's a complete steal. He's worth more than he is getting paid...and anytime you can say that about a bigman....you should be happy.


Edit: Forgot to add..tonight he showed he is capable of making plays in the clutch as well...in one of the few opportunities he's been given...this dude is a key to beating the Mavs make no mistake about it. And looking down the road at next season...Elson is the only big guy we have capable of being a true X-factor after Horry retires. Oberto won't ever be an X-Factor(and neither will freaking Bonner)...Splitter and Mahinmi will be too green.


Anyway...I am getting the definite vibe that Pop likes having a guy like Elson on the bench, regardless of whether or not he feels he's a big minutes candidate...his versatility makes him very valuable.

[GSH]

I didn't see the game ending play...but I've seen in every bigman in history miss a rotation on a game ending shot like that...including Tim Duncan. It happens.


Elson didn't miss a rotation. Period. Anyone who says he did either didn't see that last play, or doesn't understand the rule. I know you aren't saying that he did, but some others have.

Nitwitzki ran out the end of the court. If Elson had followed, he would have drawn a whistle. But it wasn't legal for Nitwitzki to do, either.

It was a cute play put in by A.J. I don't know if he doesn't know it is illegal, or if he just thought he could get by with it. (It would be legal, on the other end of the floor, and following a made basket. But not in the front court, following an out-of-bounds.)

I think the refs just got caught flat-footed, and it almost worked for them. And yes, the Spurs should refer it to the league office for clarification.

[ShoogarBear]

And yes, the Spurs should refer it to the league office for clarification.Actually, if I was Pop, what I would do is keep my mouth shut and wait for the playoffs. Then before each game, just quietly make sure the refs know that the play is illegal and wait for him to try it.

[Kori Ellis]

Elson didn't miss a rotation. Period. Anyone who says he did either didn't see that last play, or doesn't understand the rule. I know you aren't saying that he did, but some others have.



I guess Bowen and Duncan didn't see the last play. :lol They were both very upset that Elson didn't switch like he was supposed to.

But no one is saying that Elson was supposed to go out of bounds with Nowitzki.

[jman3000]

i was never able to find that video of bowen and tim chastising him... and i was too busy fist pumping to see it when it happened... any links?

[The Truth #6]

I watched the play a few times on replay. I'm sure Elson missed the switch but if he had left the paint it looked like he would have left Josh Howard all alone for a layup. I can see Bowen's frustration, probably because Elson often misses his assignments and switches, but in this case I didn't think it was as bad as others.

Who knows, maybe he thought Dirk was going out of bounds so he could hide and not have to shoot the ball. Joking?

[tmtcsc]

He was where he was supposed to be. It was Elson guarding airspace and out of position on the last play.

Yep....Bowen and Elson were discussing it with "damn, dude..we got away with one" expressions on their faces.

[GSH]

I guess Bowen and Duncan didn't see the last play. :lol They were both very upset that Elson didn't switch like he was supposed to.

But no one is saying that Elson was supposed to go out of bounds with Nowitzki.

Bowen and Duncan hadn't had the luxury of looking at the game film when that happened, had they? Tell you what...before you laugh at me any more, go have a look at a clip of that play, and tell me what the switch was supposed to look like. http://youtube.com/watch?v=BoSmisqC5ss

Just before the ball gets thrown in-bounds to Nitwitzki, pause the video. Exactly who the hell is Finley guarding? Better still...back up a few seconds and try to figure out how and why Finley got there. If Elson had left Howard, what would have kept him from getting the inbounds pass for a gimme 2-points?

The truth is, it didn't matter who was guarding Howard. His only job was to clear out anyone coming across the paint - which he did, shoving Elson backwards beyond the restricted circle. By that time, there wasn't much chance that Elson could have seriously challenged Dirk in the corner.

So where was Elson supposed to have switched? At the beginning of the play, Bowen got screened off Dirk by Brandon Bass, and Elson picked him up. Then Dirky ran out the end line - and that's when Howard cleared Elson to just above the restricted circle. So what, exactly, was the switch that Elson missed? Was he supposed to come out and cover Bass, so that Bowen could make a run at Nitwitzki? Was he just supposed to somehow not get cleared out by Howard, and follow Dirky while he was out-of-bounds? Was he supposed to leave Howard alone, a couple of feet from the basket, and with no one between him and the guy in-bounding the ball?

[LB7]

I'm going to venture to guess the play wasn't designed that way. Dirk was supposed to cut down the baseline and Josh Howard was to set the back screen. However, Elson extended his arm and forced him out of bounds. Some of yall are such homers. You can obviously tell he wasn't trying to run out of bounds. You can see Josh coming for the back screen. Geez. Then, he was probably supposed to get the ball as soon as he got around it. We didn't need the three, only two. He was forced out of bounds and then took an awful route to the open spot. He even said he ran the wrong way. Open your eyes guys. AJ didn't draw out an illegal play. Whoever said Pop needs to wait for the playoff game and tell the ref to watch out for it...yeah you made me crack up. You really think the play was designed for Dirk to start down the baseline, get shoved out, stumble his way back onto the court to run through Manu (which just took longer and didn't gain anything and also allowed Manu to see where he was going) instead of running behind where he wouldn't see? Oh geez give me a break.

[Budkin]

i was never able to find that video of bowen and tim chastising him... and i was too busy fist pumping to see it when it happened... any links?

Right after the final buzzer sounds you can see Bowen talking with Elson and he looks irritated. I didn't know Duncan got on him though. That would have been devastating had he hit that shot, especially since it seems like the whole play was illegal to begin with.

[samikeyp]

then why all the Donaghy commotion if refs don't matter?

Some Phx fans still need an excuse. :)

[travis2]

I'm going to venture to guess the play wasn't designed that way. Dirk was supposed to cut down the baseline and Josh Howard was to set the back screen. However, Elson extended his arm and forced him out of bounds. Some of yall are such homers. You can obviously tell he wasn't trying to run out of bounds. You can see Josh coming for the back screen. Geez. Then, he was probably supposed to get the ball as soon as he got around it. We didn't need the three, only two. He was forced out of bounds and then took an awful route to the open spot. He even said he ran the wrong way. Open your eyes guys. AJ didn't draw out an illegal play. Whoever said Pop needs to wait for the playoff game and tell the ref to watch out for it...yeah you made me crack up. You really think the play was designed for Dirk to start down the baseline, get shoved out, stumble his way back onto the court to run through Manu (which just took longer and didn't gain anything and also allowed Manu to see where he was going) instead of running behind where he wouldn't see? Oh geez give me a break.

ummmmm...reading comprehension is something you need to work on.

Shoog specifically said "if the play was designed..." So obviously he doesn't "...really think the play was designed for Dirk to start down the baseline, get shoved out, stumble his way back onto the court to run through Manu"

And in any case, the meat of the question didn't have anything to do with whether or not the play was designed that way or not. It was whether or not it was legal. Period.

And by the rules as posted (which you would do well to actually read and attempt to comprehend), it would appear that at least the action of moving through the box occupied by Manu was not in accordance with the rules.

[LB7]

Actually, if I was Pop, what I would do is keep my mouth shut and wait for the playoffs. Then before each game, just quietly make sure the refs know that the play is illegal and wait for him to try it.
Um this is the quote I was referring too. And, yes, looks like to me Shoog is implying that Avery drew it up illegally. Otherwise, why would he say "wait for him to try it"? Yes, I understand what everyone is saying about the rule. And if it was an illegal play, then so be it, you still won the game. My point is, why send it to the league office? They didn't do it on purpose, they aren't going to draw a play like that up to try knowing it is illegal. Illegal things happen in every single game that don't get called. The only way you need to do something about it is if you thought it was done on purpose and it clearly was not. Thats all I was saying. To be honest, I thought it should have been a 5 second call. Congrats on the win tho.

[GSH]

I just got a response from a friend who is a game official. He says that the NBA rule that "no player may cross the boundary once a designated thrower has been identified" means the same thing as the NCAA rule that states:
Art. 2. No player other than the thrower-in shall:
a. Perform the throw-in or be out of bounds after a designated-spot
throw-in begins.

Assuming he is correct (I consider him a good source) it means that in this situation, Nitwitzki was not allowed to go out of bounds. Which means the play was illegal. I looked at every clip of front court baseline inbounds plays I could find. I didn't see a single one where a player ran out of bounds.

If you assume that Nitwitzki was not supposed to run OOB, then Elson did exactly what he should have done. He picked up Nitwitzki after Bowen got screened off by Bass, and got between him and the inbounds passer. Bowen should have been able to stick with Bass, since Nitwitzki wasn't supposed to be popping up on the opposite side of the court.

I don't know if AJ knew the play was illegal, or even thought about it. He drew up a play that he thought would work. And it would have worked if Nitwitzki had made that shot. I just think the Spurs and the refs were both caught flat-footed, because that same play would have been legal on the other end of the floor, after a made field goal.

But don't have any doubts that was the way the play was drawn up. As soon as Bass made contact with Bowen, Nitwitzki headed straight OOB (and deep OOB) and headed straight for the point on the court where Ginobili was guarding the inbound pass. Howard stayed low to clear out anyone coming across the paint, which was Elson. Legal or not, the Mavs ran the play to perfection.

[As I was writing I got an e-mail from another friend. We may see that play discussed on a national sports show this evening or tomorrow. (I'll post if I find out for sure.) Should get some confirmation from a more "official" source if that happens.]

[travis2]

Um this is the quote I was referring too. And, yes, looks like to me Shoog is implying that Avery drew it up illegally. Otherwise, why would he say "wait for him to try it"? Yes, I understand what everyone is saying about the rule. And if it was an illegal play, then so be it, you still won the game. My point is, why send it to the league office? They didn't do it on purpose, they aren't going to draw a play like that up to try knowing it is illegal. Illegal things happen in every single game that don't get called. The only way you need to do something about it is if you thought it was done on purpose and it clearly was not. Thats all I was saying. To be honest, I thought it should have been a 5 second call. Congrats on the win tho.

OK, in that case I can see where you might think that. Shoog's been around a long time and I personally don't think he really meant that, but I can see your point.

Suggest quoting the post you are referring to next time...we won't have this confusion anymore. :)

[travis2]

I just got a response from a friend who is a game official. He says that the NBA rule that "no player may cross the plane of the boundary once a designated thrower has been identified" means the same thing as the NCAA rule that states:
Art. 2. No player other than the thrower-in shall:
a. Perform the throw-in or be out of bounds after a designated-spot
throw-in begins.

Assuming he is correct (I consider him a good source) it means that in this situation, Nitwitzki was not allowed to go out of bounds. Which means the play was illegal. I looked at every clip of front court baseline inbounds plays I could find. I didn't see a single one where a player ran out of bounds.

If you assume that Nitwitzki was not supposed to run OOB, then Elson did exactly what he should have done. He picked up Nitwitzki after Bowen got screened off by Bass, and got between him and the inbounds passer. Bowen should have been able to stick with Bass, since Nitwitzki wasn't supposed to be popping up on the opposite side of the court.

I don't know if AJ knew the play was illegal, or even thought about it. He drew up a play that he thought would work. And it would have worked if Nitwitzki had made that shot. I just think the Spurs and the refs were both caught flat-footed, because that same play would have been legal on the other end of the floor, after a made field goal.

But don't have any doubts that was the way the play was drawn up. As soon as Bass made contact with Bowen, Nitwitzki headed straight OOB (and deep OOB) and headed straight for the point on the court where Ginobili was guarding the inbound pass. Howard stayed low to clear out anyone coming across the paint, which was Elson. Legal or not, the Mavs ran the play to perfection.

[As I was writing I got an e-mail from another friend. We may see that play discussed on a national sports show this evening or tomorrow. (I'll post if I find out for sure.) Should get some confirmation from a more "official" source if that happens.]


That would be very interesting. Thanks.

[FromWayDowntown]

Yes, I understand what everyone is saying about the rule. And if it was an illegal play, then so be it, you still won the game. My point is, why send it to the league office? They didn't do it on purpose, they aren't going to draw a play like that up to try knowing it is illegal. Illegal things happen in every single game that don't get called. The only way you need to do something about it is if you thought it was done on purpose and it clearly was not.

I appreciate the nuance in your view, but I'll also note that it seems to me that this is exactly the sort of thing that Mark Cuban would be likely to complain about to the league.

[GSH]

I appreciate the nuance in your view, but I'll also note that it seems to me that this is exactly the sort of thing that Mark Cuban would be likely to complain about to the league.

Heh...Cuban is still bitter about the refs not calling an over-and-back in the finals a couple of years ago. But if the Mavs had benefitted instead? He would be the first to call the other team whiners.

I was being too diplomatic about AJ's intentions. I guarantee you that little troll knew the play was illegal. Even if nothing else was wrong, brushing Manu off the inbounds passer like that can't be defended. But he also had a pretty good idea he could get by with it, and I'm sure he had been saving it for just such an occasion. Give him credit for trying hard to win the game. He may be a little troll, but he used to be our little troll.

Why get clarification from the league office? If, by some miracle, the play really is legal by NBA standards, the Spurs better know about it and have some idea how to defend it - becuase a lot of other teams will pick up on it pretty quickly. But even if it didn't happen to the Spurs again, a game here or there between other teams could affect home court advantage down the road.

And if that play isn't legal, getting clarification would make sure the refs know how to call it correctly the next time. It would have been a shame to lose that game on an illegal play. Because a protest is just something you do to keep your interns busy.

[fyatuk]

If the officials would have stopped the play there, it would have been to call a foul on Elson (for pushing Dirk, the reason he went out of bounds), and the Mavs would have gotten 2 free throws and the ball.

That would have sucked, huh...

[jcrod]

looking at the replays i think Finely is at fault.

The Spurs have been switching on picks all game, going by this and the replay:

Bowen was guarding Dirk, Elson on Bass, and Finely on Howard.

Bass picks Bowen - switch, Howard picks Elson, Elson switchs but Finely steps a couple of steps back guarding no one. Leaving Dirk roaming by himself for the open shot.

If Elson had stayed on Dirk, Howard would've had an open layup.

[Joe Schmoogins]

looking at the replays i think Finely is at fault.

The Spurs have been switching on picks all game, going by this and the replay:

Bowen was guarding Dirk, Elson on Bass, and Finely on Howard.

Bass picks Bowen - switch, Howard picks Elson, Elson switchs but Finely steps a couple of steps back guarding no one. Leaving Dirk roaming by himself for the open shot.

If Elson had stayed on Dirk, Howard would've had an open layup.


Those are my thoughts about the play as well. Elson did switch on to Dirk, but then after Howard's pick, he stuck with Howard while Finley was supposed to switch to Dirk. Finley was left floating in the middle like a fool. I think Bowen probably got into it with Elson becuase he didn't realize at the time that there was a second screen set for Dirk from Howard. Elson should not be taking crap for this play. No way.

[2centsworth]

Those are my thoughts about the play as well. Elson did switch on to Dirk, but then after Howard's pick, he stuck with Howard while Finley was supposed to switch to Dirk. Finley was left floating in the middle like a fool. I think Bowen probably got into it with Elson becuase he didn't realize at the time that there was a second screen set for Dirk from Howard. Elson should not be taking crap for this play. No way.
Well he did get lost, but if he didn't screw up Finley would have allowed an easy two.