I was wrong

[Findog]

Maybe the Mavericks will show something and salvage their season, but it's not looking good. I don't know where the blame lies, as it's not 100% one person's fault, from Dirk to Avery to the bench to whomever. They all share culpability.

Anyways, looks like I wasted a lot of time and keystrokes defending this team throughout the summer and fall. I thought the team's core (Dirk, JET, Josh, Devin) was too young to have peaked and they'd remain in contention. I thought it was prudent to not panic and overreact to the first-round loss to Golden State, that they did too many things right over the previous two years to blow it all up over what one team was able to do to them.

As it is, they've pretty much validated and confirmed everything negative that's ever been said about them. They ARE soft. They DO choke -- witness how many poor 4th quarters they've played this year. They ARE psychologically damaged by what happened in the past two playoff exits. They're not 'pacing themselves' or 'saving it for the playoffs.' If anything, they've gone from one extreme to the other, from overvaluing the regular season to undervaluing it.

The cap situation isn't looking very good either, since Stackhouse and Dampier have terrible contracts that will be difficult to move. I don't know if the team could benefit from a new coach or if the personnel needs to change. Maybe both. But the haters were right. I'm going to eat my crow.

[fitzgerald]

Well I am glad you came to your senses. There is no hiding it, they are damaged. Avery has lost them. They don't even play defense anymore. If they at least still played defense things would not be so bleak.

[mystargtr34]

Maybe the Mavericks will show something and salvage their season, but it's not looking good. I don't know where the blame lies, as it's not 100% one person's fault, from Dirk to Avery to the bench to whomever. They all share culpability.

Anyways, looks like I wasted a lot of time and keystrokes defending this team throughout the summer and fall. I thought the team's core (Dirk, JET, Josh, Devin) was too young to have peaked and they'd remain in contention. I thought it was prudent to not panic and overreact to the first-round loss to Golden State, that they did too many things right over the previous two years to blow it all up over what one team was able to do to them.

As it is, they've pretty much validated and confirmed everything negative that's ever been said about them. They ARE soft. They DO choke -- witness how many poor 4th quarters they've played this year. They ARE psychologically damaged by what happened in the past two playoff exits. They're not 'pacing themselves' or 'saving it for the playoffs.' If anything, they've gone from one extreme to the other, from overvaluing the regular season to undervaluing it.

The cap situation isn't looking very good either, since Stackhouse and Dampier have terrible contracts that will be difficult to move. I don't know if the team could benefit from a new coach or if the personnel needs to change. Maybe both. But the haters were right. I'm going to eat my crow.

Im not sure if youv come down from last nights game... or from the past two nights... but my guess is frustration. Ok...
the Mavs have struggled all season...

There defense has been shite....

Dirk is being passive and is shooting 27% from three...

Devin Harris still hasnt mastered his role as starting PG... in 20 games...

Theyve played probable the toughest schedule of any team in the league...

They are irrepairably emotinally scared...

Oh and theyre 12-8.

im sure that can improve a little with in the next... 60 games or so.

A little perspective.

[MadDog73]

If it's any consolation, the Mavs and the Spurs are still the teams to beat.

I know the Hornets and Celtics are somehow up there, but am I the only one who doesn't see them as a playoff threat?

[Findog]

If it's any consolation, the Mavs and the Spurs are still the teams to beat.

I know the Hornets and Celtics are somehow up there, but am I the only one who doesn't see them as a playoff threat?


I don't see the Mavs as a threat to anybody right now. I just don't understand it - regardless of what happened to them in the playoffs, they are/were an excellent regular season team. Ninety percent of the roster is the same.

[The_Game]

If it's any consolation, the Mavs and the Spurs are still the teams to beat.

I know the Hornets and Celtics are somehow up there, but am I the only one who doesn't see them as a playoff threat?

A team with KG on is always a threat. Nevermind when you add Ray Allen and Paul Pierce.

[monosylab1k]

Avery's "take it easy" approach is the problem....his greatest strength as a coach was his fire & intensity. He's one of the worst IMO when it comes to X's and O's. He makes terrible adjustments. He regularly gets intimidated by more experienced coaches (Nellie, Riley). His INTENSITY was the ONE THING he had going for him, and now he's not doing that.

My only hope at this point is that Avery is planning on ramping up his intensity in a month or two and this team ramps up with him. Hopefully they aren't buried at the 7 seed mark by then.

[ArgSpursFan.]

Chill out Mavs fans,it's just the regular season for God's sake.
I guess you didn't learn from the past experiences. reg season Hype means shit in the playoffs.

[Findog]

I think it's partly Dirk being passive, and partly Avery misusing him. Dirk is a 2 in a 4's body...stop trying to make him Tim Duncan. He isn't. Not by a mile. Stop putting him at the five to anchor our defense. Dirk should always be on the floor with a true center alongside him.

[ArgSpursFan.]

I think it's partly Dirk being passive, and partly Avery misusing him. Dirk is a 2 in a 4's body...stop trying to make him Tim Duncan. He isn't. Not by a mile. Stop putting him at the five to anchor our defense. Dirk should always be on the floor with a true center alongside him.
Dirk should play the 3 spot and draw his defender to the low post from times to times.
He is what we call the LONG 3.
AJ is using him wrong that's all.
Give him a ton of Larry Bird's videos to show him what he has to do,that's all.

[Findog]

Rick Carlisle, Jeff Van Gundy and Larry Brown currently have lots of leisure time.

[ludda]

Yes I agree that Mavs are not "pacing", they look worse and other teams in the West have gotten better.
I also agree that Avery seems to want Dirk to be something he's not. At Dirk's stage, nothing is going to change much, take advantage of what you have, not what you don't have. I expect Avery will go back to his winning lineup from last season (no more 6th man for Terry) but still they have been exposed in a major way in the GS series and not much was done in the offseason except pick up old vets that no one wants.

The silver lining is that at least there might be a trade or something if they continue like this.

[Findog]

but still they have been exposed in a major way in the GS series and not much was done in the offseason except pick up old vets that no one wants.



Eddie Jones and Trenton Hassell are deadwood. Bass, on the other hand, has been a really nice pickup, but you can't really put him and Dirk on the floor at the same time, at least not with Dirk at the five and Bass at the four. I do like this lineup/rotation:

Starting Five:

5: Damp/Diop
4: Dirk
3: Bass
2: Howard
1: Devin

Bass has a midrange jumper on offense, and I think he's quick enough to guard most threes. You get the benefits of him and Dirk together without having a gaping vagina at the center spot. Going big like that is the only way to punish teams like Golden State that try to go small. Putting Josh at the two solves the crisis at shooting guard. Jet can be the sixth man. Diop can start against athletic uptempo teams and Damp can be used against Houston, San Antonio and other half-court teams. The other comes off the bench. Depending on the matchup and the teams, the big back of suck that is Stack/Eddie Jones/Hassell/George/Barea can be the 8th man to fill out the rotation.

Why would this not work?

[ArgSpursFan.]

Starting Five:

5: Damp/Diop
4: Dirk
3: Bass
2: Howard
1: Devin


Why would this not work?

I like that one,but If you switch Dirk at 3 and Bass at 4 it can be more effective though
Bass is stronger tham Dirk for the low post
While Dirk has more perimetral game that Bass all the long,and also can play the 4 spot from time to time.

[Findog]

I like that one,but If you switch Dirk at 3 and Bass at 4 it can be more effective though
Bass is stronger tham Dirk for the low post
While Dirk has more perimetral game that Bass all the long,and also can play the 4 spot from time to time.

Yeah, the problem with Dirk and Bass together is that Dirk cannot defend at the five... at all. He gets into foul trouble and it's a layup line. So the benefits of actually having a guy who can punish teams for swarming Dirk with double-teams is negated at the other hand. The way this team is constructed, Dirk should always be accompanied by a center. It's partly why Nash was let go, because the team understood it could only go so far with him and Dirk in the starting lineup together and the quality of defense that would ensue. Dirk + center + Bass, imo, is what you do when teams go small. You go even bigger. It's a battle of wills, they want to play a trackmeet and you need to turn it into a half-court rugby fest. It's why Golden State just can't touch Utah or San Antonio.

[Hook Dem]

The biggest problem for the Mavs as I see it is changing players every year. They don't give them time to gell together. Case in point, look at the Spurs returning all the players familiar with one another.

[ArgSpursFan.]

Yeah, the problem with Dirk and Bass together is that Dirk cannot defend at the five... at all. He gets into foul trouble and it's a layup line. So the benefits of actually having a guy who can punish teams for swarming Dirk with double-teams is negated at the other hand. The way this team is constructed, Dirk should always be accompanied by a center. It's partly why Nash was let go, because the team understood it could only go so far with him and Dirk in the starting lineup together and the quality of defense that would ensue. Dirk + center + Bass, imo, is what you do when teams go small. You go even bigger. It's a battle of wills, they want to play a trackmeet and you need to turn it into a half-court rugby fest. It's why Golden State just can't touch Utah or San Antonio.

I was actually saying play Dirk at the 3,Bass at the 4 and Diop/Dampier at 5,moving Howard at the 2 spot and playing eather Harris or Terry at the PG poss.
I know People is used to seeing Dirk playing the PF spot,but I think it could be something to give it a try,to play Dirk at SF and Howard at SG.

[Cry Havoc]

I think one problem for the Mavs that I've noticed is that they seem to be relatively one-dimensional. By that I don't mean that they only have one shot, but each player seems to be falling into too much of a set role. Terry and Dirk mostly shoot 3s. Harris doesn't have a reliable outside shot. Howard is great but hasn't stepped up as a leader. Stack has been wildly inconsistent. Diop and Damp bring nothing offensive to the floor and are there just to ensure that the team plays a bit of post defense.

It's amazing to think of this team winning 67 games last year. They were going to the tin and fighting for everything. This year, it just seems like they are all comfortable playing a single role and that's it. At least, that's how I've felt watching them. There is no ferociousness in their offense, and their defense is a bit lackluster.

But hey, I would have said the exact same thing about the Spurs last year at this time. There is ample opportunity to turn it around. But in that respect I'm not sure if Harris is the answer at point. He's undersized and attempts to compensate for his defensive deficiency by falling to the court a lot. Terry may be a jerk and a bit of a headcase but he's lethal and he takes personal offense when someone scores on him. All the Mavs need to see it like that.

The bench needs an identity as well.

[Findog]

But hey, I would have said the exact same thing about the Spurs last year at this time. There is ample opportunity to turn it around

There was nothing really wrong with the Spurs last year, they just didn't win 29 out of 31 regular season games like the Suns, or 51 out of 56 like the Mavs. Given the way Phoenix and Dallas tore through the league, it didn't inspire confidence that the Spurs were as good as those two teams. We sure found out differently in May.

[ArgSpursFan.]

you have to give it time until the ASG to find their identity.
there are a couple of new players added to the rotation and surely AJ is trying something diferent from last year in order to get to the WCFs again.
It all needs time to gel up.

[monosylab1k]

There was nothing really wrong with the Spurs last year, they just didn't win 29 out of 31 regular season games like the Suns, or 51 out of 56 like the Mavs. Given the way Phoenix and Dallas tore through the league, it didn't inspire confidence that the Spurs were as good as those two teams. We sure found out differently in May.
Last year after 20 games the Spurs were 15-5, averaging 100 points a game and giving up 91.

This year after 20 games, the Mavericks are 12-8, averaging 102 points a game and giving up 99.

If they're trying to copy the Spurs they're doing a pretty shitty job at it.

[RonMexico]

Diop also blows chunks - I picked him up on fantasy for his blocks potential and I think he's had 0 in the past 3 games.

[Findog]

Last year after 20 games the Spurs were 15-5, averaging 100 points a game and giving up 91.

This year after 20 games, the Mavericks are 12-8, averaging 102 points a game and giving up 99.

If they're trying to copy the Spurs they're doing a pretty shitty job at it.

There doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to anything they're doing. And I think it gets worse before it gets better. This team really reminds me of the 03-04 year.

[Budkin]

The way they are starting reminds me of how the Spurs have started many seasons. The Mavs are a really talented team and I'm sure they will break out of their funk at some point.

[Findog]

The way they are starting reminds me of how the Spurs have started many seasons. The Mavs are a really talented team and I'm sure they will break out of their funk at some point.

The Mavs didn't lose in the first round because they won 67 games. It's a false dichotomy that they "burned themselves out" last year and they're "pacing themselves" now. Just to be clear, I don't want our guys playing 42 minutes a night, but I also want hustle and intelligence when they're out on the floor. This team played lock-down defense for huge stretches last year, that's how they won all those games. It's not as if that great regular season was completely meaningless, you can't win that many games with smoke and mirrors. And they have 90% of the same roster, so it's a mystery as to how they have completely become discombulated.

I didn't lend any credence to the psychology talk, because they didn't feel sorry for themselves last year, they just went out and played. But I'm beginning to think that there is credence to it. They got screwed by the refs in Miami*, they were completely picked apart by Nellie, and that might be too much to forget about and move on. They're not the first team that lost a series in which they had a lot of questionable calls go against them, nor are they the first victims of a huge upset. But maybe back to back has created lingering problems.

* I'm not blaming the refs for the loss to Miami, ultimately our lack of perimeter defense against Wade did us in, but the officiating in Game Five was unbalanced and the Stackhouse suspension was bullshit. A team like the Spurs could probably shrug it off and just play, but this team couldn't.

[Purple & Gold]

It's early. Regular season means nothing.






Well other than making the playoffs and getting a good seed. :madrun :madrun

[Lp26]

I read through the thread quickly and this is already being discussed, but from an outsider's perspective, the problem seems to me to be that Avery 1/ is still reacting to the GS loss, and 2/ he seems to have lost confidence in Dirk, and Dirk seems to know it. You guys won 67 games last year with the lineup of Jiop/Dirk or Damp/Dirk. This Bass/Dirk lineup is retarded. Going small with Dirk at the 5 is retarded. From what i can tell about Bass in the few games i watched he's like fool's gold. He may score but he's a defensive liabilty. Put him out there with Dirk at the 5, and your just asking to get scored on in the paint.

And this passive team Dirk is not effective. I was watching a game where you guys needed a score, and watched you go through 3 different people (including Bass) before you went to Dirk. Also i don't know if this has been happening alot, but i watched Dirk get hot last night, and he was kinda demanding the ball (getting into position), and then i watched the rest of Dallas completely ignore him after that.

Avery is playing away from Dirk's strength. I understand the logic, but it screams i've lost faith in Dirk, When he inevitably falls apart in the post-season, it won't matter b/c we won't be dependant on him anyway. The problem is the Mavs are dependant on him. He's your superstar and your not going to really be successful any other way. Everybody else on the team is a role player.

The Mavs have never had strong bench IMO. They had one or two guys that contributed (Stack, and Jiop when he wasn't starting), and Stack besides last night has been miserable.

Just my 2 cents. I don't think you guys are doomed, but Avery needs to figure some things out and quick.

[BonnerDynasty]

Still too early. I still think they are the Spurs biggest competition.

[Findog]

Still too early. I still think they are the Spurs biggest competition.

There's nothing that inspires confidence in me that the two teams will meet in the playoffs.

[leemajors]

did i see isos for bass last night, or was he just not passing the ball?

[monosylab1k]

did i see isos for bass last night, or was he just not passing the ball?
brandon bass redefines the term "black hole".

that said, I wish Dirk had a little more Bass in his game this year.

[stretch]

did i see isos for bass last night, or was he just not passing the ball?
Honestly, I think Avery has been trying to develop him as much as possible during the regular season by forcing him to take shots and run ISO's, which isn't a bad idea at all. We know that this team is still going to win 50 games and make the playoffs. And Bass really hasn't been taking too many bad shots, and he's been getting more and more confidence each game.

[stretch]

Plus, there is no way in hell that the offense against the Spurs in the 4th quarter should not be getting run through Howard, Terry, and Dirk every play, but instead, they would just funnel it into Bass almost every play, and just stand back and watch him work. That's why I think Avery is doing it intentionally.

[monosylab1k]

there's teams that grow a pair and get the job done (Spurs, Lakers, Pistons, Heat) and there's teams that get so close but never get it done, then everyone on the team turns into moping little bitches and slowly the thing dies and the team sucks (Kings, T-Wolves, Pacers). Right now it looks like the Mavs are turning into that second category of team.

[Findog]

there's teams that grow a pair and get the job done (Spurs, Lakers, Pistons, Heat) and there's teams that get so close but never get it done, then everyone on the team turns into moping little bitches and slowly the thing dies and the team sucks (Kings, T-Wolves, Pacers). Right now it looks like the Mavs are turning into that second category of team.

yeah, it sucks, but I'm coming along to this line of thinking. Stop whining at the fucking refs and get a stop. Make a shot. Refs aren't going to bail out whiny bitches. Champs don't beg for calls, they get it done in spite of the calls.

[mavsfan1000]

This is getting so old. Everyone knee jerking about early in the season games. Yes if the playoffs were close by, I'd be worried. We still got 62 games to play before that. A lot of things can change before that.

[to21]

Is this a replay from last season?

Relax....they'll be fine.

[LakeShow]

The Mavs will be alright and win some games to make the playoffs. They are a talented team BUT it is FOOLS GOLD to think that they can turn it up in the playoffs. In fact, I look for Dirk to have a Doug Christie game 7 of the 2002 WCF in the playoffs choke job this season.

I understand Avery wanting to go to post more often. He understands that without a low post presence in the Playoffs, they're toast. He wants his team to learn to win with a low post game and not having to depend on Dirk. He has seen over and over that Dirk is not the player to depend on when it's win or go home. Now is the time for Avery and the mavs to work on that part of their game. Hell, it's only December!

[stretch]

The Mavs will be alright and win some games to make the playoffs. They are a talented team BUT it is FOOLS GOLD to think that they can turn it up in the playoffs. In fact, I look for Dirk to have a Doug Christie game 7 of the 2002 WCF in the playoffs choke job this season.

I understand Avery wanting to go to post more often. He understands that without a low post presence in the Playoffs, they're toast. He wants his team to learn to win with a low post game and not having to depend on Dirk. He has seen over and over that Dirk is not the player to depend on when it's win or go home. Now is the time for Avery and the mavs to work on that part of their game. Hell, it's only December!
Great. What about the Rockets?

[LakeShow]

Great. What about the Rockets?

The Rockets are not having the best of seasons either but they will get better. Tracy's inability to win a first round matchup and Ming's soft play in the post will be a factor in their title hopes as always. It will be tough to win it all with that hanging over their heads.

[jman3000]

when the mavs started last season 0-4 and all the spurs fans were circle jerking at their dismay i said that they would reel off a couple of 10 game winning streaks soon and that the record wasnt indicative of how they play...

this time however the bad play has been more spread out pretty evenly throughout the season and has to be contributed to more than just "taking the regular season off" as some people perceive the spurs as doing... which they do.... the fact that we have the 2nd best record in the league dumbfounds me. If a few bounces had gone the other way this mav team might be a .500 ball club and that's pretty scary.

[ShoogarBear]

It's early. Regular season means nothing.
I agree with the first statement. Avery's been doing do much experimenting with lineups, but that another thing that Pop's done in years past that he seems to have taken from him.

Mavs still have a lot of talent and could easily turn things around. It would be huge if Dirk would just step up and tell Avery he wants to be the man again.

[SAGambler]

If it's any consolation, the Mavs and the Spurs are still the teams to beat.

I know the Hornets and Celtics are somehow up there, but am I the only one who doesn't see them as a playoff threat?


I watched that Celt - Bull game last night, and quite frankly, I don't see what the big deal of the Celts is supposed to be. They certainly weren't impressive. Yeah, they won, but only because the Bulls couldn't hit a bull in the ass with a base fiddle.

Hell, the great PP had no field goals the entire first half. Ray Allens 3 point shooting is what won them the game, but we all know Allen will completely disappear when Bowen is on the court.

Most of the time they only had 2 of the big 3 on the floor, even though they all started. Taking another page from Pops coaching tips perhaps.

I can't wait until they hit a four or five game roadtrip, with a few WC games thrown in there. I think then they just become another mediocre team, and the media will lose all this interest and hyperbole that is currently being layed upon them.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Relax....they'll be fine.

[dude1394]

The mavs are trying to develop a few things both with the team(coach) and with the players.

1. Avery is trying to not be the all-controlling nanny that he has been the last few years. Unfortunately with Avery, he seems to peg-out anything he tries so he goes too far. I've noticed that he's starting to ratchet back up a little. He's begun to call a few more plays out there.

2. Having Devin Harris call all of the offensive sets. Again as is Avery's way, he went from not calling anything last year to having devin calling everything this year. We need a balance there until devin is better at it, he needs a little help.

3. Finding a way to deal with zones and teams that take the ball out of dirks hands...PERIOD.. There is nothing that has hurt us like this and to the mavs/avery's credit this is the plan and they will sacrifice the season record and just about any playoff seeding to try and get this right.

4. Getting the rest of the team to quit waiting on dirk to save 'em.

5. Finding a solid small-ball team. Strangely enough since going small against the spurs in the playoffs we've seen a steady diet of small-ball teams. We are much better with a center out there but teams have been taking it away if possible. The mavs have to find a decent way to play without dampier/diop. Right now that's working on Dirk/Bass as that tandem.
It was strange last night that the mavs did not play dirk/bass together last night, they really needed to win that game and that small-ball tandem is still confused.

The defensive intensity is disturbing and that one I don't have an answer for. Unless Avery is also trying to find a way to get the team to be more responsible for it instead of himself nagging them to death about it. But that one I'm not sure about.

The mavs are making some pretty significant changes in what they've done and the coach is trying to make some much-needed changes in his style of coaching.

So I agree with most, there is no reason to think this team cannot play solid defense (they have) or solid offense (they have). But I don't think fans understand the fine line between average and great in this game. Just incorporating a new role player (10 minutes or so) many times throws a team off.

I would also say that around Feb we'll know if it's a bust or not.

[The_Game]

I watched that Celt - Bull game last night, and quite frankly, I don't see what the big deal of the Celts is supposed to be. They certainly weren't impressive. Yeah, they won, but only because the Bulls couldn't hit a bull in the ass with a base fiddle.

Hell, the great PP had no field goals the entire first half. Ray Allens 3 point shooting is what won them the game, but we all know Allen will completely disappear when Bowen is on the court.

Most of the time they only had 2 of the big 3 on the floor, even though they all started. Taking another page from Pops coaching tips perhaps.

I can't wait until they hit a four or five game roadtrip, with a few WC games thrown in there. I think then they just become another mediocre team, and the media will lose all this interest and hyperbole that is currently being layed upon them.

do you get extra points in the standings for winning by playing amazing? please....boston have been blowing teams out by an average of like 16 points so far..they have been very impressive. 17-2 is a great record no matter what.

i think it is wishful thinking on your part that they will struggle and be average. a team with KG, Allen and pierce makes them a huge threat to everybody. they are a title contender.

[BonnerDynasty]

There's nothing that inspires confidence in me that the two teams will meet in the playoffs.

Well with the way Dallas is playing, it could be the first round lol.