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1Parker1
09-22-2004, 10:40 PM
These days, it's hard to fathom what a point guard in the NBA really is anymore.

What we do know is he's the guy who handles the ball the majority of the time, is likely to have the most assists on his team and should be the best on-the-ball defender among the starters.



Allen Iverson will run the show for the Sixers after several years at shooting guard. (Getty Images)
And most important, he's the guy who will make everybody better.

If you go by that theory, there is no doubt Jason Kidd -- with or without a surgically repaired left knee, whether he plays the first month of the season, whether the New Jersey Nets continue their deconstruction and deal him -- remains the best point guard in the NBA.

And that leaves everybody else.

Granted, the Phoenix Suns overpaid free agent Steve Nash because he is a proven floor leader who should help his young and restless teammates improve. And San Antonio Spurs prodigy Tony Parker has shown signs of being that kind of player.

But the rest of the group has proved to have me-first, you-next inclinations.

It's why Chauncey Billups struggled nearly the entire season and certainly into the playoffs as Pistons coach Larry Brown worked at transforming Billups into the kind of point guard who plays the right way. Ultimately it worked; the Pistons roared to the NBA title, and Billups was named MVP of the NBA Finals.

Then again, we'll have to wait and see Year 2 of the great experiment to either acknowledge the transformation is complete or learn the Finals were just an aberration.

His No. 2 ranking doesn't mean Allen Iverson isn't a special player and can't be a great point guard. New 76ers coach Jim O'Brien has made it clear he will play Iverson at the point despite Brown's insistence at playing Iverson at the shooting guard for their six seasons together in Philadelphia.

"It was coach Brown's choice," Iverson said in an extended interview before the 2004 All-Star Game. "I always thought I should have the ball in my hands. I see the floor and can help my teammates get better shots."

Of course, saying it and doing it are two different things. Brown went through a lot of the same pains during the Olympics with Stephon Marbury, another marvelously talented point guard who is inclined to shoot first. Although he and Oscar Robertson are the only players in history to average at least 20 points and eight assists for their careers, he was not the traditional playmaker Brown wanted either.

Last year's rankings
2004 Rank 2003 Stock
1. J. Kidd 1 SAME
2. A. Iverson 3-SG
3. B. Davis 5
4. C. Billups 9
5. S. Cassell --
6. S. Marbury 2
7. S. Francis 4
8. M. Bibby 7
9. T. Parker --
10. S. Nash 6
Complete 2003 Rankings

But Brown stuck with him throughout the Olympics and it got better, gradually.

"It was tough," Marbury said. "But I learned a lot from him. It just takes time to adjust."

And so it goes when it is instinctive to control the ball, but not include other players on a consistent basis.

Steve Francis might be the most naturally gifted point guard in the whole group, but his inclination to put on a dribbling exhibition that runs down the shot clock, and ultimately force an off-balance shot, nearly drove Rockets coach Jeff Van Gundy loony. Consequently, it precipitated a blockbuster trade that sent Francis to Orlando for Tracy McGrady.

And then you have a career-long shoot-first point guard like Sam Cassell, who just happens to be coming off the best season of his career at the age of 34, leading the Minnesota Timberwolves to the Western Conference finals.

So you see, it's possible to be effective as a shoot-first point guard. But it only works if there are mature players who accept it and are capable of helping the ball move.

But if you ask any player in the league what point guard they would prefer to play with, you'd be, uh, kidding yourself to consider there would be any choice other than Jason Kidd.

1. Jason Kidd, New Jersey Nets: He is 31 and his knee is a problem, but he's still the best at running an offense and his teammates love him.

2. Allen Iverson, Philadelphia 76ers: This will be the most interesting season for the most exciting guard in the league to prove he can run an offense.

3. Baron Davis, New Orleans Hornets: He is so gifted, and potentially better than any of these guys, but he's just too selfish too often.

4. Chauncey Billups, Detroit Pistons: When Joe Dumars signed him as a free agent, he saw a lot of himself in Billups. This season we'll find out.

5. Sam Cassell, Minnesota Timberwolves: Last season will be a tough act for him to follow, but if he does, the Timberwolves have a great shot to win the West.

6. Stephon Marbury, New York Knicks: Isiah Thomas invested the future of the Knicks and his own credibility in Marbury. Will he step up this year?

7. Steve Francis, Orlando Magic: It's impossible to know how getting traded will affect Francis, but he certainly has a lot to learn about running a team.

8. Mike Bibby, Sacramento Kings: Some might believe he should be higher in this ranking, but defensive shortcomings and unpredictability in big games linger.

9. Tony Parker, San Antonio Spurs: He could end up being the best of this group with his quickness and all-around ability, but only if he improves.

10. Steve Nash, Phoenix Suns: It appears age is catching up to him considering how he has tired the past couple of seasons. We'll see what he has left.

Also receiving consideration: Gary Payton, Boston Celtics; Dwyane Wade, Miami Heat; Gilbert Arenas, Washington Wizards; Andre Miller, Denver Nuggets; Jason Terry, Dallas Mavericks; Jason Williams, Memphis Grizzlies; Carlos Arroyo, Utah Jazz; Eric Snow, Cleveland Cavaliers; Damon Stoudamire, Portland Trail Blazers.

www.sportsline.com/nba/story/7708485 (http://www.sportsline.com/nba/story/7708485)

DuffMcCartney
09-22-2004, 10:44 PM
If Steve Nash was still in Dallas, all the Mavs fans would be calling this list bullshit by putting TP ahead of Nash, now that he is gone...they have no problem with it. In fact, they'd probably rank him lower.

1Parker1
09-22-2004, 10:48 PM
You know what I found crazy? That STEVE FRANCHISE was placed at #7, ahead of Bibby and Tony. No way is that true. As for Stephen Marbury, I think he should be lower, probably around #8, switched with Bibby.

1Parker1
09-22-2004, 10:50 PM
Also, I think that if AI is placed in the PG position this year, he has the potential to knock out Kidd from the #1 spot.

Solid D
09-22-2004, 11:48 PM
I agree that Francis should be farther down the list. Bibby up the list.

1. J. Kidd
2. A. Iverson - better as a 2-guard in rhythm, catch and shoot or penetrating rubbing off screens.
3. B. Davis
4. M. Bibby
5. S. Cassell
6. C. Billups
7. T. Parker
8. D. Wade
9. S. Marbury
10. S. Nash

Somewhere down the line:
Steve Francis (right after Beno Udrih - hey at least Beno doesn't dribble the ball the last 13 seconds of a game, down a bucket, and jack up an off-balance 3 at the buzzer) 8)

ducks
09-22-2004, 11:59 PM
kidd was not the best point guard last season
he is to far up
kidd might be in top 3-4 but if his knee is bad as advertise he is down further
IMO he had 0 points in game 7

Brodels
09-23-2004, 12:02 AM
8. D. Wade

Solid, I agree with the rest of your list, but I can't understand why Wade would be considered the eighth best point guard in the entire league over Nash and others.

He is certainly hyped enough, it's true, and he did have a couple of good playoff games last spring, but what has he really done in the league?

He put up 16 and 4.5 on a bad team.

I think he'll eventually be a very good player, but I think he's overhyped for now. He does play defense though, and he's got that over some of the others.

I just need to see more before I'm sold, that's all.

SequSpur
09-23-2004, 12:12 AM
Kidd still #1. Parker barely breaking into the top 10....

Nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.... we don't need Kidd, we couldn't utilize his skills...... nnnnnnnnnnaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh.....

Whatever...

Kidd will still kick ass.

ducks
09-23-2004, 12:20 AM
Kidd will still kick ass.
is he kicking his wife now instead of hitting:Q

SequSpur
09-23-2004, 12:21 AM
Anybody that doesn't think that Kidd is an elite pg, then they are sniffin butt crack.

ducks
09-23-2004, 12:23 AM
what did webber do after all the time off last year due to injury?

I thought he sucked pretty bad did you not?

webber was not a mvp candiate before but he was not himself last year due to the injury

Solid D
09-23-2004, 12:24 AM
Solid, I agree with the rest of your list, but I can't understand why Wade would be considered the eighth best point guard in the entire league over Nash and others.

Aw, I threw Wade in there ahead of Marbury and Nash because of his all-around game, and yes, his solid d. It's my one flier. It seemed like the USA Olympic team did better with Wade in there in place of Marbury on the +/-. At season's end, I think this will be a pretty decent slot for Wade...although I know it's based on how much I like this kid more than anything else right now.

SequSpur
09-23-2004, 12:28 AM
This is my ranking:

Tony Parker
Beno Uldrich
Allen Iverson
Mike Bibby
Bobby Jackson
Jason Kidd
Steve Nash
Sam Broke Ass Cassell
Francis
Marbury

Solid D
09-23-2004, 12:39 AM
This is my ranking:

Tony Parker
Beno Uldrich
Allen Iverson

http://www.mainlesson.com/books/guerber/greeks/zpage058.gif
Blind Homer http://www.thesimpsons.com/bios/images/bios_family_homer.gif

Solid D
09-23-2004, 01:12 AM
Check out the stats and highlighted Efficiency Ratings
(doesn't tell the whole story but interesting, none-the-less)

2003-04 Statistics

J. Kidd
PPG 15.5
RPG 6.40
APG 9.2
EFF + 20.45

A. Iverson
PPG 26.4
RPG 3.70
APG 6.8
EFF + 18.19

B. Davis
PPG 22.9
RPG 4.30
APG 7.5
EFF + 19.81

M. Bibby
PPG 18.4
RPG 3.40
APG 5.4
EFF + 17.93

S. Cassell
PPG 19.8
RPG 3.30
APG 7.3
EFF + 20.67

C. Billups
PPG 16.9
RPG 3.50
APG 5.7
EFF + 16.45

T. Parker
PPG 14.7
RPG 3.20
APG 5.5
EFF + 13.76

D. Wade
PPG 16.2
RPG 4.00
APG 4.5
EFF + 15.26

S. Marbury
PPG 20.2
RPG 3.20
APG 8.9
EFF + 20.27

S. Nash
PPG 14.5
RPG 3.00
APG 8.8
EFF + 18.51

Tommy Duncan
09-23-2004, 03:46 AM
Perhaps I am missing something but out of all of the points on the lists in this thread Parker seems to be the only one who last season ran an offense with a dominant low post bigman. That kept Parker's assists average down significantly.

Tommy Duncan
09-23-2004, 03:59 AM
Ok I suppose you could count Francis as another. Yao had slightly fewer field goal and free throw attempts than TD but the real indicator of import is that TD had double (3.1) the number of assists per game that Yao did (1.5). In the Spurs' offense Parker is sharing the playmaking duties with Duncan and thus the average sports writer is going to give Parker short shrift because his assist average will trail those point guards who aren't so confined.

Yes, playing with Duncan has its obvious advantages. But most of those other point guards on the list have some pretty good offensive talent to play with themselves.

The comparison of TP/TD with Francis/Yao last season shows that the problem for TP's assists average is that Duncan is a significant decisionmaker in the Spurs' O.

Anyways, I don't understand. Someone once told me that the Spurs had "no talent" outside of Duncan on the team.

Personally I don't see why Parker today is not a top 5 point.

http://www.11-11-productions.com/ghostbusters.jpg

Solid D
09-23-2004, 10:37 AM
Perhaps I am missing something but out of all of the points on the lists in this thread Parker seems to be the only one who last season ran an offense with a dominant low post bigman. That kept Parker's assists average down significantly.

You know, Tommy, I was thinking the same thing yesterday when pulling together the Efficiency ratings and stats.

To expand your point, Tim ends up with the ball frequently in a read-and-react scenario and becomes the hub of the wheel, when not running motion offenses. When the Spurs go 4-down, Parker may bring the ball up and enter the offense with the first pass but that pass often goes to the wing. The wing makes the 2nd or 3rd pass to the post, so Parker may not get as many assist opportunities.

Secondly, the Spurs ran more motion last season than they have at any time since Pop has been coaching the Spurs. Parker gets his share of screen/rolls in the two-man game but a motion offense does not normally generate a high assist total for any one player. The scoring and passing is a little more balanced among the players.

Thus, Tony's assist totals will tend to be more moderate until he can begin to get them more off the break and early offense.

Tommy Duncan
09-23-2004, 12:09 PM
Great points SD. This will probably be why Parker will not get the recognition he deserves, at least in the media. Stats drive most 'analysis' you see by color commentators, pundits, and sports writers. I suspect he'll get more recognition as his scoring average rises over the next couple of seasons, which I suspect it will. That's my "fake, but accurate" analysis.

Also, I'd say there's a Ghost of a chance that everyone in this forum will give him the credit he deserves.

Nikos
09-23-2004, 12:13 PM
Thus, Tony's assist totals will tend to be more moderate until he can begin to get them more off the break and early offense.

Tony's assists will probably always be on the low side for an upper echelon PG (which he will likely become at some point).

Spurs basketball is just too slow paced and geared towards dumping into Tim Duncan to allow other guards to rack up huge assists totals.

With that said Tony Parker hopefully should be able to rise his apg from 5.5apg to something like 6.7apg with a smaller proportion of turnovers.

The Spurs are one of the better passing teams in the league IMO with the addition of Brent Barry. If TP can improve his overall PG skills they can become a very good offensive team instead of a mediocre one like last season.

Right now I see Parker as more of a drive and dish passer, as opposed to pure PG who makes good decisions often, and never misses the open man or cutter. He is improving in that regard, but IMO still has some ways to go in that area.

SickDSM
09-23-2004, 07:01 PM
Anybody that doesn't think that Kidd is an elite pg, then they are sniffin butt crack.

Posted 9/16/04 8:33 pm


Sam Cassell is old and washed up.

Today.

Dude, you want to challenge me? Mofo, they are unloading your sorry ass talent for a fucking broken knee point guard.

That is how shitty your team is. Wake the **** up.


Posted 9/17/04 12:18 am

ut your team is trading 3 so called starters, lmao by the way, for a broken down point guard that may never be the same player again



How's that butt crack smelling? You have more sides than Kerry's campaign. You kiss Cassell's ass last year, he has a minor injury compared to Kidds major injury and later you pile on both of them.

Broken down point guard that may never be the same player again or fucking broken knee point guard are your EXACT description of Kidd just about a week ago so STFU. Must have a helluva training schedule huh?