Game Thoughts: Spurs vs. Jazz - Dec. 7

[timvp]

I won’t lie, I didn’t think the Spurs had much of a chance to beat the Utah Jazz. The Jazz are a rugged, mean team that I thought could really take advantage of the Spurs being minus Tim Duncan. And in the beginning of the game, it looked as if the Jazz were going to roll right over the Spurs.

But then a funny thing happened on the way to the Spurs’ first home loss of the year … they fought back, showed championship level heart and pulled out a very nice victory. I’m much more impressed with this win than I am the win against the Dallas Mavericks. While the Mavs are more of a rival, they also don’t play well against small ball lineups, as the Golden State Warriors showed the world last year. With the Spurs not having Duncan, it was going to be a lot of small ball and I thought the Spurs would have a shot to pull it out.

However, the Jazz destroy small ball. It’s suicide to go small against them because they’ll just beat you up, dominate you on the boards and win going away. For proof, just look at what they did against the Warriors in the playoffs last year. But this Spurs team found a way to pull out an improbable victory just on guts and guile alone.

As far as the Jazz are concerned, I’m impressed. That team is going to be good for a long time if they stay healthy. Ronnie Brewer makes them a much tougher matchup for the Spurs because you have to account for him all over the court, which wasn’t something true with Derek Fisher. Deron Williams and Carlos Boozer are highly skilled players who play really hard. Jerry Sloan, if he isn’t the best coach in the league, is definitely in the top five. I’d go as far as to say that the Jazz should be classified right up there with the Spurs, Mavs and Phoenix Suns.

-Manu Ginobili has had a lot of good games this year but this showing I think topped them all. Last game against the Mavs was flashier and he had some made for TV highlights during that game. But this game, Ginobili just willed the Spurs to victory. I love how he’s relentlessly driving the ball to the basket when in doubt. In past years, he might put up a jumper, but not this season. Unless you back off him, he’s going to take it to the hole and he’s going to make you stop him. That makes him almost impossible to guard because he can then use his step back three-pointer move much more effectively. His 37 points on offense were nice but what I really loved was his defense. This was by far his best defensive game of the season. His help defense and overall awareness on that end of the court was as good as I’ve ever seen out of him. How many times did he come over to disrupt a play? It seemed like practically every possession in the fourth quarter. Props to Pop for putting him on a non-offensive threat like Andrei Kirilenko and letting Ginobili roam. The Jazz shot north of 54% for the game but that would have been much higher if Ginobili wasn’t playing like a combination of Ronnie Lott and a tiger looking to swoop in on an unsuspecting antelope. *takes cold shower* [/endrant]

-For a lot of the game, Tony Parker was playing poorly. His defense early on was pretty pathetic and his offense was forced. To me, it looks like his ankle or calf or whatever is wrong with him was really limiting his movement. He didn’t have his usual blazing speed and his quickness was more ordinary. That said, I really liked how he battled through the adversity. Instead of folding tent he got angry and ended up hitting the last two field goals the Spurs made as a team. Those were championship worthy shots right there. It’s easy to knock down shots late when you are rolling all game. It’s a different animal to knock down shots when you couldn’t do anything right for the first three and a half quarters of the game.

-Bruce Bowen didn’t play as much as he usually does (only 24 minutes) but he was important to the victory. When Williams was lighting up Parker early on, Bowen switched onto him and put out the fire. Williams never really got it going against after Bowen harassed him. Pop made the right call in limiting Bowen’s minutes because the Spurs were in desperate need of offense, but Bowen did his part while he was in the game.

-Fabricio Oberto has played really well for a while now. He’s getting close to solidifying his spot as the fifth best player on the team. Coming off the bench for the first time this season, Oberto had four points, 12 rebounds, three assists and two steals while also leading the team in plus/minus at +12. Oberto’s smart, solid play is a very underrated aspect for this team. He’s quickly becoming a vital cog to the Spurs machine. In this game, his rebounding in the first half kept the Spurs close and then he had the game clinching play late when he drew an offensive foul on Boozer. Major props to Oberto for not only this game, but the last two to three weeks where he’s played exceptionally well.

-For the second straight game, Michael Finley played a huge role in the Spurs being able to pull out a victory. He scored 15 points in 29 minutes, while connecting on 5-of-8 shots from the floor including 4-of-7 from beyond the three-point arc. Also, for the second straight game, his rebounds (5) were vital. Hopefully he can continue this play because the Spurs are much better when Finley is on.

-I’ve been hard on Matt Bonner for about the last month but he came through today with an important outing. In 33 minutes, he scored 13 points and had four rebounds. While he played far from perfect, the Spurs desperately needed him to avoid resorting to small ball. Bonner played well enough to warrant a place on the court and ended up making a couple of big plays. His jumper was the bucket that gave the Spurs the lead for the first time in the fourth quarter. I do have to point out that Bonner let Mehmet Okur take him off the dribble not once but twice. I’ve never seen Okur take anyone off the dribble in his life. Obviously, Bonner still has a ways to go defensively but he came up with some big plays during this game and played perhaps his best game of the year.

-Francisco Elson started at center … and that turned out to be the most notable thing he did all night. Two points and two rebounds in 17 minutes of clueless play isn’t what the Spurs wanted to see out of Elson when the team desperately needed him to play well in Duncan’s absence. Outside of his block against the Mavs, he’s been stunningly poor as of late. His entire game seems to have regressed quite drastically. I would bash his defense but to call what he was doing “defense” would be too kind. Let’s just say his non-offense was very poor.

-Robert Horry is back with a vengeance. He ain’t messin’ around out there. You gotta love how he’s yelling at teammates and bringing playoff like intensity to a game in December. While he still has a lot of rust to shake off, I saw a lot of encouraging signs. He is crafty as ever and he knows exactly where to be on the court. He seems into things more than usual, which should bode well for the rest of the season. Especially once he gets in shape.

-Jacque Vaughn had another solid game. He took and made a couple of long jumpers that helped keep the Spurs within striking distance. With Parker hobbled and in foul trouble, he was the steadying hand that the Spurs need him to be when he’s out there.

-Brent Barry had his second straight very poor showing. I don’t know if he’s just not able to play the scrappy, all heart type game the Spurs used to win the last two contests, or whether he just really depends on Duncan. Whatever the case may be he’s been drastically less effective the last couple of games.

-This was one of Pop’s better coaching games of the year. He realized that small ball would get destroyed so he stayed away from it. He also realized that in the Mavs game, Ginobili got too tired. By bringing Ginobili off the bench, that forces Pop to somewhat limit his minutes. Otherwise, it’d be too hard to play Ginobili less than 40 minutes. I’m still trying to figure out what the exact reason was for Oberto to come off the bench. My guess is that the coaching staff thought Bonner was a better matchup for Okur on the perimeter than either Elson or Oberto would have been. While the Jazz shot the lights out, most of that was just great execution and the Spurs not having Duncan. Pop made some subtle defensive switches here and there to help slow down the Jazz just enough. Overall, I thought this was the best win of the season. I know it’s only early December and none of these games truly mean anything but it’s impossible to ignore the determination and will to win the Spurs have shown in the last two games.

[THE SIXTH MAN]

:tu nice as always.

Damn the Spurs could have easiley mailed it in through out the whole game. But they didn't. They fought for this win.

[E20]

I won’t lie, I didn’t think the Spurs had much of a chance to beat the Utah Jazz. The Jazz are a rugged, mean team that I thought could really take advantage of the Spurs being minus Tim Duncan. And in the beginning of the game, it looked as if the Jazz were going to roll right over the Spurs.
You gotta practice what you preach man! BELIEVE. I believe the Spurs can and will beat anybody on any given night, regardless of the situation.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

Great win by the Spurs. I really expected them to lose this game, because of all that effort in taking it to the Mavs. They did it again.

I like how Tony didn't give up, even though he was out of it. (I think he got mad at the end of third at himself mostly. )

It was hard to complain about any of the Spurs tonight, because we got a hard fought win.


This was by far his best defensive game of the season. His help defense and overall awareness on that end of the court was as good as I’ve ever seen out of him.

His block on Boozer was insane!

[whottt]

-Brent Barry had his second straight very poor showing. I don’t know if he’s just not able to play the scrappy, all heart type game the Spurs used to win the last two contests, or whether he just really depends on Duncan. Whatever the case may be he’s been drastically less effective the last couple of games.

.


It's called depth...just because Pop doesn't play a guy as many minutes doesn't mean he thinks they played poorly...this is a deep team with a deep bench and obviously Pop wanted to stay big against the huge ass Jazz frontline....probably for the rebounding.

Besides...if Finley's hitting shots, you know Pop is going to play him over Barry...it doesn't matter what Barry does.

Barry didn't play bad tonight...in fact he was scrapping and sticking his nose in there on D...Pop just wanted to play big...and Finley was hitting his shots.

Plus...Manu's getting more minutes with Duncan out.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

The scary thing out of all is this is that we're off to a franchise best 17-3 start......and our defense isn't even half of what it should be right now.

[whottt]

Saying Barry is dependent on Duncan is without a doubt the worst take you have ever had on this board...ever watch him play before he came to the Spurs? He was better.

[timvp]

Saying Barry is dependent on Duncan is without a doubt the worst take you have ever had on this board...ever watch him play before he came to the Spurs? His teams sucked.

[timvp]

And no, I'm not going to get into another Barry argument. If you want to make excuses for his poor play over the last two games, go ahead but I'm not going to argue back.

If Barry accidentally scored the winning basket for the other team you'd find a way to twist it around and somehow blame it on Pop, Finley, AJ or all three.

Let's be real.

[whottt]

Sticks and stones may break my bones but name calling doesn't keep that take from being your worst.

[Sweetey]

Saying Barry is dependent on Duncan is without a doubt the worst take you have ever had on this board...ever watch him play before he came to the Spurs? He was better.
I agree.

[whottt]

You're right....Barry couldn't hit the side of a barn tonight :tu

[timvp]

Sticks and stones may break my bones but name calling doesn't keep that take from being your worst.True because Barry without Duncan had all that team success. I mean I can't count how many big games he won before he played with Duncan.

Because there weren't any.








Barry post :pctoss

[E20]

It's gonna be nice to have 3 days off for Tony and Manu!

[Kori Ellis]

It's gonna be nice to have 3 days off for Tony and Manu!

Yeah, I'm not sure if Tony's problem is ankle/calf or both, but he needs the rest. And obviously Manu does too after playing big minutes, playing so hard, and taking such shots to the head/body.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

It's gonna be nice to have 3 days off for Tony and Manu!
Nice for them, torture for us

[ShoogarBear]

Steve Smith was better before he came to the Spurs, too.

[Kori Ellis]

Steve Smith was better before he came to the Spurs, too.

Ron Mercer averaged 20 ppg in Chicago.

[whottt]

True because Barry without Duncan had all that team success. I mean I can't count how many big games he won before he played with Duncan.

Because there weren't any.


His numbers were better...I don't care if he lost every game he played, his numbers were substantially better. Duncan doesn't improve his game...


He lead the NBA in 3 shooting...before he was a Spur. He shot over 50% from the field twice...before he was a Spur.


And if these last two games are your definition of a big game you just owned yourself...because he hit a game winner against us(and Tim Duncan) in Drob's last season.


The point is...he didn't play bad tonight...it had absolutely nothing to do with his limited PT.


You can make an argument he played bad in the Dallas game...but I thought all you cared about was if he was passing up shots? He didn't do that against Dallas.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

I'm just glad I finally got to watch a Spurs game from start to finish this season.

I couldn't stop yelling at Elson to ROTATE, though.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Steve Smith was better before he came to the Spurs, too.


as was michael finley

and nick van exel


and hedo got better after he left the spurs



we need a new coach!

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

His numbers were better...I don't care if he lost every game he played, his numbers substantially better. Duncan doesn't improve his game...


He lead the NBA in 3 shooting...before he was a Spur. He shot over 50% from the field twice...before he was a Spur.


And if these last two games are your definition of a big game you just owned yourself...because he hit a game winner against us in Drob's last season.


The point is...he didn't play bad tonight...it had absolutely nothing to do with his limited PT.


You can make an argument he played bad in the Dallas game...but I thought all you cared about was if he was passing up shots? He didn't do that against Dallas.

You forgot about the dunk contest.

[E20]

The game will be on ESPN 12AM PST again. For those who missed it or didn't get it to really watch it (like me).

[whottt]

You're right...those guys weren't dependent on Duncan either, in fact, they sucked once on Duncan's team...thanks for the assist :tu

[Kori Ellis]

His numbers were better...I don't care if he lost every game he played, his numbers substantially better. Duncan doesn't improve his game...


He lead the NBA in 3 shooting...before he was a Spur. He shot over 50% from the field twice...before he was a Spur.


And if these last two games are your definition of a big game you just owned yourself...because he hit a game winner against us in Drob's last season.


The point is...he didn't play bad tonight...it had absolutely nothing to do with his limited PT.


You can make an argument he played bad in the Dallas game...but I thought all you cared about was if he was passing up shots? He didn't do that against Dallas.

:lol

To say the Duncan makes Barry better on THIS SPURS TEAM doesn't have anything to do with what Barry has done in his life. It's just a note that maybe Barry plays better on this particular Spurs team with Timmy on the floor than without Timmy on the floor.

I don't know why you get so butt hurt ever time someone even remotely bashes Barry. It's a freaky phenomenon.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

:lol

To say the Duncan makes Barry better on THIS SPURS TEAM doesn't have anything to do with what Barry has done in his life. It's just a note that maybe Barry plays better on this particular Spurs team with Timmy on the floor than without Timmy on the floor.

I don't know why you get so butt hurt ever time someone even remotely bashes Barry. It's a freaky phenomenon.

God, we need another GTG to see this shit live again.

[SenorSpur]

Ronnie Brewer does make the Jazz much tougher in a lot of ways. A nice player. I'm jealous.

[Kori Ellis]

I couldn't stop yelling at Elson to ROTATE, though.

Don't waste your breath. Every one of his teammates and coaches have been yelling the same thing for a couple seasons now. :p:

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Don't waste your breath. Every one of his teammates and coaches have been yelling the same thing for a couple seasons now. :p:

:lol I'm making up for lost games this season.

[jdaveah]

I don't think the issue is Barry playing so poorly as much as it is that Finley has been playing very well. We all spoke in the off season of the crowded 2/3 spots. If you've got Finley going, obviously Manu is going to get a ton of touches, and Bruce needs his minutes. Expecting Barry to produce a ton in the 10-15 minutes left is asking alot. And anyway, why is it such a bad thing if Tim is making people better? Isn't that kind of the point?

[ShoogarBear]

Ron Mercer averaged 20 ppg in Chicago.I'll see your Mercer, and raise you:

http://www.nba.com/media/knicks/jackie_300_tv.jpg


(Beno being in the shot is just an added bonus.)

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Don't waste your breath. Every one of his teammates and coaches have been yelling the same thing for a couple seasons now. :p:


Do you think Elson is worth his contract?

I'm sure you already read the Church of Elson joke thread, but I actually think he's hurting the team more than helping at this point.

[SRJ]

The Spurs rebounded well against Dallas, and even held their own tonight against a team that pounds the boards. The Spurs grabbed 26.8% of potential offensive rebounds, Utah grabbed 24.2% of theirs.

I'm enjoying the boardwork of the past two games as much as anything else.

[E20]

Don't waste your breath. Every one of his teammates and coaches have been yelling the same thing for a couple seasons now. :p:
So is Elson worse or the same as Nazr when it comes to the D? IMO Elson IS Nazr. But I just have a feeling that Nazr has a knack for getting O rebounds better than Elson.

[anakha]

Finley's play these past two games suggests that he may be more comfortable coming off the bench than in past seasons.

Is there a possibility of a change at starting SG when Duncan returns?

[Amuseddaysleeper]

So is Elson worse or the same as Nazr when it comes to the D? IMO Elson IS Nazr. But I just have a feeling that Nazr has a knack for getting O rebounds better than Elson.


I would take Nazr any day of the week.

As a matter of fact, he was crucial to our 2005 run.


Also, nazr's rebounding >>>>>> Elson

and for that reason alone, I'd take Nazr


(and sorry, I know that question wasn't directed at me)

[bigfan]

Must say TIMVP does an excellent job in these post game breakdowns.

[E20]

I would take Nazr any day of the week.

As a matter of fact, he was crucial to our 2005 run.


Also, nazr's rebounding >>>>>> Elson

and for that reason alone, I'd take Nazr


(and sorry, I know that question wasn't directed at me)
It was actually directed towards everybody. :lol

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Do you think Elson is worth his contract?

I'm sure you already read the Church of Elson joke thread, but I actually think he's hurting the team more than helping at this point.

While I agree with the general consensus, I just don't see who else we'd get for the money.

As far as hurting the team, I wouldn't be surprised if there was an upcoming loss where an Elson goof could be seen as the turning point, but I don't think they'd happen frequently enough to move him to the far back of the rotation.

[whottt]

:lol

To say the Duncan makes Barry better on THIS SPURS TEAM doesn't have anything to do with what Barry has done in his life. It's just a note that maybe Barry plays better on this particular Spurs team with Timmy on the floor than without Timmy on the floor.

I don't know why you get so butt hurt ever time someone even remotely bashes Barry. It's a freaky phenomenon.



I don't...just depends on if the criticism makes any sense...


I'd be willing to bet some of Barry's best games as a Spur came with Duncan injured...


The point is..

You guys made absolutely no sense...

TimVP said he guess Barry is dependent on Duncan..I said he was better before he came here...

You guys listed a bunch of guys that Duncan didn't make better...


I appreciate you giving me Boardwalk..but I was plenty happy with Park Place.


Playing on the Spurs isn't a known way to improve a players numbers...


I can list about 50 players whose numbers went down on the Spurs..and I can only think of two whose numbers went up...DA and Bruce Bowen.


Less minutes don't always = poorer play


Barry didn't play bad tonight...he got 10 minutes of PT.

[some_user86]

Finley's play these past two games suggests that he may be more comfortable coming off the bench than in past seasons.

Is there a possibility of a change at starting SG when Duncan returns?

Why? Fin started today, and played great.

[anakha]

Why? Fin started today, and played great.

:lol Oops. Brainfart on my end.

[Kori Ellis]

I don't...just depends on if the criticism makes any sense...


I'd be willing to bet some of Barry's best games as a Spur came with Duncan injured...


The point is..

You guys made absolutely no sense...

TimVP said he guess Barry is dependent on Duncan..I said he was better before he came here...

You guys listed a bunch of guys that Duncan didn't make better...


I appreciate you giving me Boardwalk..but I was plenty happy with Park Place.


Playing on the Spurs isn't a known way to improve a players numbers...


I can list about 50 players whose numbers went down on the Spurs..and I can only think of two whose numbers went up...DA and Bruce Bowen.


Less minutes don't always = poorer play


Barry didn't play bad tonight...he got 10 minutes of PT.


You still aren't getting the point :lol No one said that Tim made Barry better than he was back on the Sonics. Just saying that he maybe plays better ON THIS TEAM with Tim rather than without. :lol

[Kori Ellis]

Anyway ... I'm not going to argue with Whottt because I have a lot of work to do and because I don't really care about Barry that much. :lol

Good night Whottt - you are one of the few people who I can't ignore your posts. :lmao

[jman3000]

I can't even put into words how i feel about this team at the moment. Ive tried my hardest to thinik that an inevitable slump is coming... a string of 3 or 4 games where we play like we did against sacramento. to be able to beat 1 powerhouse without duncan might be considered a fluke... but to do it twice, one oafter the other no less... is simply amazing and gives us a glimpse into how special this team can become.


with that said... i reeeaaaaaaaallly want a slump to come up. i dont know why. i always felt it was necessary to get things picked up a few notches.

i dont know what's better... spurs peak after march.... or spurs hit a really high platueau in november and kick ass all the way to another title.

[T Park]

Mohammed is making the mid level and putting up Elson numbers.

So thats hilarious :lol

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Mohammed is making the mid level and putting up Elson numbers.

So thats hilarious :lol


or maybe he's on a different team in a completely different environment

So thats hilarious :lol

[timvp]

Elson's saving grace this season is his rebounding. His rebounding rate is actually good. However, outside of his rebounding, he isn't doing anything to earn playing time.








Not long ago, whottt was on the Barry and Elson bandwagon. I guess he dumped Elson. Don't hear much complaining about how timvp is doing Elson wrong these days.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

I would take Nazr any day of the week.

As a matter of fact, he was crucial to our 2005 run.


Also, nazr's rebounding >>>>>> Elson

and for that reason alone, I'd take Nazr


(and sorry, I know that question wasn't directed at me)
I still think he's useful, just for his physique, and atheliticism.

He's a better body than our past centers. If only he could concentrate better or elevate his presence where he's not a liability. Horry yelled at him I noticed :lol

I still think Nazr's stone hands are way worse than Elson. Also Elson knows how to finish better than Nazr.

[T Park]

or maybe he's on a different team in a completely different environment

So thats hilarious

How does that make him better than Elson?

Shit the way Mohammed finished his last season in SA.

I'd say Elson is close to him.

[whottt]

Not long ago, whottt was on the Barry and Elson bandwagon. I guess he dumped Elson. Don't hear much complaining about how timvp is doing Elson wrong these days.


I still like Elson...



PS...I want to give a :tu to ShoogarBear for bringing up Beno...yeap...Duncan makes everyone better. For sure...



Anyway...I enjoyed the Kori/Timvp argument...reminds me of all those Barry VS Beno VS Devin arguments :smokin

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I still think he's useful, just for his physique, and atheliticism.

He's a better body than our past centers. If only he could concentrate better or elevate his presence where he's not a liability. Horry yelled at him I noticed :lol

I still think Nazr's stone hands are way worse than Elson. Also Elson knows how to finish better than Nazr.


Does he? I mean Nazr wasn't much of a stud in my eyes, though I am grateful for his contributions in 2005, but it feels like Elson only finishes well around the basket if he's got a wide open dunk.

It's just that Elson's brain farts on defense are killing me.

Either way, at 17-3 it's hard to really nitpick, but the more I'm seeing of Elson, the less I'm thinking he'll be in a Spurs uniform next year.

[timvp]

I hate Tim Duncan. He makes players worse. Did you see how good Barry's stats were before Duncan ruined his game?

[slayermin]

Damn, I wish I was in SA this weekend.

[whottt]

PS...it's hilarious that Bonner hitting a meaningul shot in the fourth quarter for the first time 2 years is such a big deal to you, forget about the fact that there were like 25 minutes left in the fourth when he hiit it...desperate times call for desperate measures I suppose...

[whottt]

I hate players who don't get minutes, they suck

[SRJ]

The Venus de Milo has better hands than Nazr. A convicted thief in Saudi Arabia has better hands than Nazr.

Elson plays like Nazr in a lot of ways, but at least he can catch.

[timvp]

I still like Elson...The man of many words comes up with four in defense of Elson? :lmao

Sound the alarms in Holland ... the end may be near.

[T Park]

PS...it's hilarious that Bonner hitting a meaningul shot in the fourth quarter for the first time 2 years is such a big deal to you, forget about the fact that there were like 25 minutes left in the fourth when he hiit it...desperate times call for desperate measures I suppose

Nah there was 4 minutes left and it was their first lead of the game.


Heaven forbid it be thought of as a big shot.

I guess had it been made against the Suns it would've counted for more.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

How does that make him better than Elson?

Shit the way Mohammed finished his last season in SA.

I'd say Elson is close to him.


dude, Nazr got the shaft from Pop in his final SA days. He took a 3 at the shot clock buzzer against the Kings and that was the last we ever got to hear from him.


Yeah, Pop opted for small ball against the Mavs, nullifying Nazr and Rasho, but I'd take Nazr over Elson, even though I'm not exactly smitten with either of them.

But who knows where Elson will be in March, I was really annoyed with Oberto last season (prior to the playoffs) but he's come around quite nicely.

I just don't know if Elson has the basketball smarts to make it on this team.

[T Park]

Elson plays like Nazr in a lot of ways, but at least he can catch.

Yeah they both are pretty stupid, but at least Elson will catch.

[whottt]

The man of many words comes up with four in defense of Elson? :lmao

Sound the alarms in Holland ... the end may be near.


http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82988

[T Park]

dude, Nazr got the shaft from Pop in his final SA days

:lol

I knew the Pop basher in you couldn't be held back.

[Kori Ellis]

Elson and Nazr are pretty much the same to me, though Elson is a cheetah and Nazr is a turtle. Nazr was freakin slower than Rasho.

But the end result is the same - 5/5 guys, who play very little D, but can sometimes out-tall some people.

[T Park]

Elson and Nazr are pretty much the same to me, though Elson is a cheetah and Nazr is a turtle. Nazr was freakin slower than Rasho.

But the end result is the same - 5/5 guys, who play very little D, but can sometimes out-tall some people

and makes wayyyyy less money

that points the scales twords Elson.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

:lol

I knew the Pop basher in you couldn't be held back.

:lol

touche'


though like I said in the other thread, after the Spurs winning it all last year, I truly realized anything can happen. So I've kept most of my bitching to a minimum.

[whottt]

I like Elson a lot better than Nazr....Nazr could dunk and rebound...inconsistently.


Elson can do a lot more stuff than Nazr inconsistently.

.

[SRJ]

Anyone have the story on why Pop was so pissed about that three by Nazr?

[T Park]

Hes a better shot blocker than Nazr.

he contests alot more shots as well.

[SRJ]

Nazr wasn't as long as Elson either.

[T Park]

Anyone have the story on why Pop was so pissed about that three by Nazr?

Because the team was up 30, and it was a bush league shot.

That isn't what brought him down.

His performance in games 2 through 6 is what sunk him.

[Kori Ellis]

and makes wayyyyy less money

that points the scales twords Elson.

Not really that much less money on an annual basis - 3M to 5.5M or whatever.

Elson's speed makes him useful in some situations, which is what makes him better than Nazr to me. But they are both low BB IQ players, and both never caught on to much about Spurs defense. Elson still has some time though. I see flashes of the light bulb coming on, sometimes.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Anyone have the story on why Pop was so pissed about that three by Nazr?


Pop thought Nazr was running up the scoreboard against the Kings in a blowout win, but in reality the shot clock was winding so Nazr had no choice.


Pop went a bit overboard in benching Nazr, but whatever.

[timvp]

Hes a better shot blocker than Nazr.Negative.

Nazr is a better scorer, rebounder and shot blocker per minute than Elson and always has been. If Elson ever played as well as Nazr did in the 2005 playoff run, I'd be ecstatic.

That said, with Oberto playing at his current level, it doesn't really matter what Elson does. As long as he keeps having his one good game every other week, that's probably good enough out of a backup center.

[E20]

Anyone have the story on why Pop was so pissed about that three by Nazr?
It was Game 2 against Sac and Nazr had to shoot it to avoid a 24 second violation and that made Pop furious because it was basically kicking somebody when they were down. It gave the Kings a 'reason' to play harder in Game 3, according to Pop.

The only way Nazr could have been spared the wrath of Pop if he bricked the three.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Negative.

Nazr is a better scorer, rebounder and shot blocker per minute than Elson and always has been. If Elson ever played as well as Nazr did in the 2005 playoff run, I'd be ecstatic.

That said, with Oberto playing at his current level, it doesn't really matter what Elson does. As long as he keeps having his one good game every other week, that's probably good enough out of a backup center.

:tu

but sadly, I don't think that'll happen.


I'd actually rather have Mahinmi in over Elson, as crazy as that sounds.

[wildbill2u]

This is a great team with a will to win that shows their heart of a champion. You could see them encouraging each other out there in the 4th quarter. They knew they could win if they worked together.

Anyone who loves basketball played within a team concept has got to love this team.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

This is a great team with a will to win that shows their heart of a champion. You could see them encouraging each other out there in the 4th quarter. They knew they could win if they worked together.

Anyone who loves basketball played within a team concept has got to love this team.


Even Steve Nash admits to enjoying the way Spurs play ball :lol

[SRJ]

It was Game 2 against Sac and Nazr had to shoot it to avoid a 24 second violation and that made Pop furious because it was basically kicking somebody when they were down. It gave the Kings a 'reason' to play harder in Game 3, according to Pop.

The only way Nazr could have been spared the wrath of Pop if he bricked the three.

I remember the play, but I thought there was more to it than that, since the shot clock was running down and he had it. I guess he should have missed it on purpose.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

even if you saw the shot, it wasn't even a swish, it hit the the rim like 3 times before popping in.


I don't get what a player is supposed to do in that situation, get a shot clock violation on purpose?

gimme a break.

[whottt]

Pop was pissed because Nazr tied AJ's career playoff 3 point mark with that shot...

[FromWayDowntown]

It was Game 2 against Sac and Nazr had to shoot it to avoid a 24 second violation and that made Pop furious because it was basically kicking somebody when they were down. It gave the Kings a 'reason' to play harder in Game 3, according to Pop.

The only way Nazr could have been spared the wrath of Pop if he bricked the three.

That was all at the end of Game 1, not Game 2 -- the end of Game 2 (or at least the end of regulation) was Barry's Bounce.

[Dex]

I’m still trying to figure out what the exact reason was for Oberto to come off the bench. My guess is that the coaching staff thought Bonner was a better matchup for Okur on the perimeter than either Elson or Oberto would have been.

Maybe it was also a move to limit Fabricio's and, to a lesser extent, Elson's foul trouble. Both are known for picking them up quick, especially with a physical presence of the Jazz inside. Knowing that Oberto is probably going to be your best rebounder, better to have him on the court at the end of the game, rather than at the beginning.

Not only could Bonner step out of the paint a little more, but you might as well let him pick up those four early fouls.

And as it turned out, Fab was able to be on the floor for the last play, and well...we know how the story goes from there.

[whottt]

Pop started Bonner so he could clear some of the Jazz' big butts out of the paint to hinder their rebound and open it up for Manu and Parker...


I think he brought Manu off the bench because he wanted to take advantage of a somewhat weak Jazz bench..and he wanted Oberto to get more minutes with Manu...because Manu really knows how to get the most out of Oberto.


It would have been cool to have Team Argentina coming off the bench...too bad Paxon is an idiot who would rather have 15 SF than a winning record.

[E20]

That was all at the end of Game 1, not Game 2 -- the end of Game 2 (or at least the end of regulation) was Barry's Bounce.
Samething.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Great thoughts LJ. :tu

Bonner should be ashamed by the drive and dunk Okur put on him. Hell, Okur is one of the slowest players in the NBA, and he's a right hander while Bonner over-guarded him to the left. WTF?

Anyway, great, gutsy win. :)

[2centsworth]

This is easily TIMVPs best effort. Plus, there have been some way above average replies. IMO, this is a Classic!

[peskypesky]

Elson's speed will be an asset when we play the run&gun teams like Phoenix and Golden State. Pop will use Oberto against slower, power teams like Utah.

That being said, it is sad to see Elson struggling. You can see that he WANTS to contribute, but he's so often clueless. I guess no amount of effort and coaching and desire can raise someone's IQ.

[peskypesky]

It would have been cool to have Team Argentina coming off the bench...too bad Paxon is an idiot who would rather have 15 SF than a winning record.

:lol

[FromWayDowntown]

I agree with the notion that tonight's win was more impressive than the win against the Mavs, if only because the automatic "up" of playing against the Mavs didn't exist and the Spurs had every reason to be satisfied and pack it in tonight. Manu was absolutely spectacular again and with all of that Parker hit the biggest bucket of the game, IMO with about 1 minute to go in the 4th. Oberto's work on the glass was gigantic -- for that Spurs team to be as close as they were on the boards tonight was remarkable and due largely to the fact that Oberto was so good in that facet of the game.

I was pleased to see the Spurs defense improve -- at least a little bit -- as the game progressed; early on, it sure looked like the Jazz were just going to pick the D apart and get nothing but layups and dunks all night. The Spurs did a good job of plugging at least a few of the leaks and did what they had to do to beat Utah: keep everyone not named Williams and Boozer in check.

The Spurs were helped a lot tonight by the number of times they got to the line, but I thought they played aggressively and earned their trips tonight -- and they did a good job of converting when they got there.

All in all, it's the most impressive victory this season, if you ask me. Most past Spurs teams lose that game, I think. This might be the grittiest, guttiest team in recent Spurs history.

[peskypesky]

This might be the grittiest, guttiest team in recent Spurs history.

It was a huge win, because Utah was having one of those games where they could not miss. Everything was going in for them, and for every player. And I don't think it was due to bad defense by the Spurs. The Jazz were in a zone and they were sinking contested shot after contested shot. I mean how many times did Boozer drill that spin and fade shot?

To beat an elite team that's shooting out the lights, and to do it without your franchise player? That is huge. Major props.

[Spurs Brazil]

Elson is playing very bad. His defense is terrible. I thought after a year learning the system he'd get better but yesterday was the worst game I've seen him play

[SAGambler]

I thought after the WC Finals last year, and I still think that Utah is going to be a force in the WC this year. Think someone mentioned on the telecast last night, that the Jazz mirror the Spurs probably more than any other team.

They are tough. They have good players that can knock down the shots...Williams is going to be one of the great PGs around and Boozer.....Well, what can you say about the guy? He is just an awesome player that brings it every night.

Wouldn't surprise me at all to see the Jazz in the WC Finals again this year.

Yet as tough and tenacious as they are, they still haven't learned to keep their cool the last 5 minutes in a close game with a team that has had their number for years.

We shot possibly our highest number of FTs for the year against them. And they have to learn to hold onto the ball, especially in the final quarter. But right now I give them as good a chance as Phoenix or Dallas to be in the WC Finals.

Also they play with intensity, good hard fouls, without being cheapshot artists like the Mavs try to be. In the end, I think, this will only help them.

I still think the Spurs are the "team you have to beat" to make the Finals, but it may be a tougher road this year than last. This could be the year that HCA is huge to the Spurs, considering how they are playing on their home court. I didn't think it mattered much last year, but if they can capture HCA, I think it will be a big advantage this year.

Now if the Spurs improve during the Rodeo Road Trip, and they seem to every year, then you have to say the Spurs are the one team you don't want to face in the playoffs. It's almost scary how good this team may be come May '08.

Personally, I can hardly wait for the Celtic matchups. I would love to see the Spurs put a damper on "The great Celtics are back" routine.

[bdictjames]

First time I heard Tony cuss, must've been from hanging out with Coach Pop all these years, "that was a fucking foul!", lol. We got some stops at the end, we won, just like Pop said, defense is the key to this team and not offense.

[baseline bum]

Slightly off topic, how sweet is it that the Spurs haven't lost to Utah in San Antonio since the infamous loss when Mario Elie called out David Robinson and Tim Duncan on NBC, almost 9 years ago?

[AFBlue]

:lol @ the Nazr-Elson comparisons. It's like arguing about what smells better...dogshit or horseshit.

Elson sucks...BAD. But, the reality is that there just isn't another option right now (no, Mahinmi is not a legitimate option at present).

Having said that, it's no time to panic. The Spurs have three things going for them right now...

1. Oberto is playing very well. Yes his offense is limited and he fouls alot, but he gets KEY offensive rebounds and knows how to play off the ball and get easy opportunities to score (specifically w/ Duncan and Ginobili). Plus, his defense isn't bad.

2. Bonner is slowly improving. While I emphasize the word "slowly", Bonner does seem to be getting better because the effort is always there. He provides a solid shooting touch and rebounding toughness.

3. Horry is coming back. Last night Horry looked to be regaining that trademark confidence when he releases the ball. He has also shown flashes of his ability to affect the game in other ways (rebounding, blocked shots, etc.). While I don't think he should be playing a ton of minutes in the regular season, he looks like he can certainly bring the pain one more time.

Bottom Line: Elson is almost worthless and will most likely be jettisoned at the end of the season (in favor of Splitter/Mahinmi). But in the meantime, be thankful that the other frontline role players are stepping up to minimize Elson's negative effect.

[AFBlue]

First time I heard Tony cuss, must've been from hanging out with Coach Pop all these years, "that was a fucking foul!", lol. We got some stops at the end, we won, just like Pop said, defense is the key to this team and not offense.

Probably Eva....I heard she cusses like a sailor.

http://www.hollywoodtuna.com/images/bigimages/eva_longoria_engaged_big.jpg

"No she didn't...THAT B*TCH"

[AFBlue]

My thoughts...

Agree with most everything that was said in the original post and have to echo how impressed I was that the Spurs battled to come back in this game and keep pace with a solid frontline, to include a dominant Carlos Boozer. Great, scrappy win!

There was one thing that I didn't think received enough attention, someone who deserved more props....

Tony Parker for his DEFENSE in the fourth quarter and down the stretch. Yes, I know he was manhandled in the first quarter causing Pop to switch Bowen to Williams in the second. But, in the fourth quarter Parker was switched back to Williams and did a phenomenal job. He was constantly applying pressure (even out to the halfcourt line), staying on Williams hip at every moment, and not getting blown by once.

Bottom Line: Parker showed that when he applies defensive intensity to his solid understanding, speed, and hands he can be a defensive stopper. I was very impressed with his late-game play....especially on defense.

Overall, great win!

[exstatic]

Barry didn't play bad tonight...he got 10 minutes of PT.
He got 10 minutes because CJ Miles LIT HIS ASS UP due to lack of defensive hustle in the first half. It wasn't just an arbitrary decision.

[exstatic]

Elson - Bleh! There is nothing else to say. Someone asked after one of his non-sucky performances earlier if this was really his last year. I'd say yes. Next year:

Elson, Horry --------------->
<-------------Mahinmi, 'Tiago

[exstatic]

Someone earlier called the Jazz a Spurs clone. That's true offensively, but on defense, they're a donut team. They have a LONG way to go in that regard, and they also only have Booz and Deron, where we have T,T, and M. If they come up with a truly viable 3rd option, and go and get a shotblocker that can play a minimum of 30 mpg, then they'll be a clone. Until then, we have clear separation.

[Southwest Texas Fan]

Two gutsy wins. This can only give the team confidence when the playoffs begin. This reminds me when the team stepped it up a couple seasons ago and Timmy rolled this ankle.

[T Park]

Nazr is a better scorer, rebounder and shot blocker per minute than Elson and always has been. If Elson ever played as well as Nazr did in the 2005 playoff run, I'd be ecstatic.



Im talking getting to and challenging.

Im not talking about stats.

He gets to more balls, doesn't block em, but challenges alot more than Nazr did.

[wildbill2u]

All in all, it's the most impressive victory this season, if you ask me. Most past Spurs teams lose that game, I think. This might be the grittiest, guttiest team in recent Spurs history.
I've been thinking the same thing all season. This isn't the first time we've won by coming from behind because the veteran players simply refuse to lose.

I always considered the '99 team the "grittiest and guttiest" Spurs team because they had that 'will to win' character trait. You had confidence that they'd step it up in the 4th and win somehow.

This Spur team may be the best of all time.

[wildbill2u]

I agree with the notion that tonight's win was more impressive than the win against the Mavs...
All in all, it's the most impressive victory this season, if you ask me. Most past Spurs teams lose that game, I think. This might be the grittiest, guttiest team in recent Spurs history.
I always considered the '99 team as the gold standard for "grittiest and guttiest" Spur team ever. No matter how far they were down, you always knew they'd step it up and find a way to win in the 4th.

But this version has impressed me with the same character in several games this season that they could have lost. You can just see those vets out there encouraging each other with positive vibes and plays. And Manu is almost Jordanesque in his 'will to win' in the 4th, putting the team on his shoulders with spectacular all around fearless play and absolutlely killer free throw shooting.

They may be the best Spur team of all time.

[wildbill2u]

Sorry about the double post with similar thoughts. My browser crashed as I was posting and I didn't think it got on the thread.

On the other hand, fuck it, this team deserves a double helping of praise.

[T Park]

Honestly I'm not afraid of Utah, because they can't handle pressure situations.

They turn the ball over or will put up a god awful stupid shot.

Utah isn't the force in the west that they are cracked up to be.

Had they had this team last year as opposed to last years, the differences beeing Brewer and Watson playing and not Fisher and Giricek.


Fisher CARRIED the Jazz out of the second round.

Could Brewer do that? I don't know, I'm not totally 100% sold on Ronnie Brewer yet.

[DannyT]

[QUOTE=timvp]Brent Barry had his second straight very poor showing. I don’t know if he’s just not able to play the scrappy, all heart type game the Spurs used to win the last two contests, or whether he just really depends on Duncan. Whatever the case may be he’s been drastically less effective the last couple of games.

QUOTE]


i thought this was vintage brent choking barry that were have been pleasured with seeing in big games

[Altromondo]

His block on Boozer was insane!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=769uA8qfdrE&NR=1

[Budkin]

timvp your post game analysis needs to be in the Express News or at least on WOAI SpursZone! Excellent as always!

[Altromondo]

timvp your post game analysis needs to be in the Express News or at least on WOAI SpursZone! Excellent as always!

it is on WOAI SpursZone.

[td4mvp21]

[QUOTE=timvp]Brent Barry had his second straight very poor showing. I don’t know if he’s just not able to play the scrappy, all heart type game the Spurs used to win the last two contests, or whether he just really depends on Duncan. Whatever the case may be he’s been drastically less effective the last couple of games.

QUOTE]


i thought this was vintage brent choking barry that were have been pleasured with seeing in big games
:lol

Be prepared for whottt to jump all over you and write a page long response about how Barry is so much better than Finley, even though you did not even mention Finley in your post. :rolleyes

[Budkin]

it is on WOAI SpursZone.

Kick ass... didn't even notice!

[Cry Havoc]

Someone earlier called the Jazz a Spurs clone. That's true offensively, but on defense, they're a donut team. They have a LONG way to go in that regard, and they also only have Booz and Deron, where we have T,T, and M. If they come up with a truly viable 3rd option, and go and get a shotblocker that can play a minimum of 30 mpg, then they'll be a clone. Until then, we have clear separation.

Perhaps it's a bit early, but Ronnie Brewer is quickly becoming a beast on the defensive side of things. I think Utah has the potential to be the 2nd best team in the West if they keep improving.

[Sec24Row7]

I didnt read all 5 pages of replies so if this has been said already... sorry.

The reason that Fabricio came off the bench probably has a lot to do with his Chemistry with Ginobili.

Tony doesn't really play off of Oberto the way that Manu and Tim do.

Without Timmy in the lineup... it's kind of a waste to have him in there when Ginobili is out.