If Manu were on the Suns, what would he average?

[Darkwaters]

I'm just curious what people think. But if Manu played his typical 28-30 MPG in an up-tempo system like the Suns, what would his numbers look like?

Obviously, this is simply hypothetical, since D'Antoni has never heard of substitutions or limiting players minutes, but I'm still curious.

[debo]

per game: 25 pg 8 rbs 3 ast

[Phenomanul]

per game: 25 pg 8 rbs 3 ast

His assists average would increase not decrease... even with Nash on the team.

32-33 MPG
24 PPG
6.1 RPG
6.0 APG
2 SPG
2.5 TPG

All a guess of course....

[debo]

His assists average would increase not decrease... even with Nash on the team.

well, you pretty much called out my reasoning

[timvp]

He'd probably average less on the Suns. Coming off the bench for the Spurs, he has the ball in his hands a ton and gets a huge amount of touches throughout the game. On the Suns, every possession goes through Steve Nash so Ginobili's playmaking opportunities would be far limited. Players who score a lot on the Suns are players who are strictly finishers who don't create much of their own offense ... for example, Shawn Marion. Ginobili would be lucky to get half the touches on the Suns that he gets on the Spurs. And I haven't even taken into account the Tim Duncan effect of making the game easier for everyone on the Spurs, without having to even touch the ball.

And really, Ginobili is already fourth in the league is points per minute behind LeBron, Kobe and Boozer. LeBron is averaging .77 points per minute, while Ginobili averages .72 points per minute. There really isn't that much room for improvement. Plus, he's not a chucker and I don't think the Spurs are holding him back from scoring at all. He's pretty much in the most optimal position. While a faster pace could help, Ginobili isn't much of a gunner ... he's more of a player who dissects the other team's defense.

I seriously couldn't think of a better situation for Ginobili ... just as I can't think of a player I'd rather having playing Ginobili's role rather than Ginobili.

[meta2007]

If Manu were on the Suns, he wouldn't be the Manu we know. I cannot imagine the Suns would give the ball to Manu rather than Nash during clutch time.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Forget his stats, imagine the ratings!

[ricketts]

21-25 PPG 7-10 ASST 3-4 REB. but i hope that never happens.

[WalterBenitez]

Forget his stats, imagine the ratings!
:eyebrows

[bdictjames]

If Nash were on the Spurs, what would he average?

[AnotherArgie]

If Nash were on the Spurs, what would he average?

A championship per year.

[meta2007]

I like both Manu and Nash, but I don't think they can co-exist in a team.

[E20]

How would the corpse of Wilt Chamberlain fare in today's game?

10 PPG and 14 RPG IMHO, Spurs should sign him.

[FromWayDowntown]

If Manu played for D'Antoni, he'd be playing 38-42 mpg and would be completely out of gas by mid-February.

[SouthernFried]

He'd probably average less on the Suns. Coming off the bench for the Spurs, he has the ball in his hands a ton and gets a huge amount of touches throughout the game. On the Suns, every possession goes through Steve Nash so Ginobili's playmaking opportunities would be far limited. Players who score a lot on the Suns are players who are strictly finishers who don't create much of their own offense ... for example, Shawn Marion. Ginobili would be lucky to get half the touches on the Suns that he gets on the Spurs. And I haven't even taken into account the Tim Duncan effect of making the game easier for everyone on the Spurs, without having to even touch the ball.

And really, Ginobili is already fourth in the league is points per minute behind LeBron, Kobe and Boozer. LeBron is averaging .77 points per minute, while Ginobili averages .72 points per minute. There really isn't that much room for improvement. Plus, he's not a chucker and I don't think the Spurs are holding him back from scoring at all. He's pretty much in the most optimal position. While a faster pace could help, Ginobili isn't much of a gunner ... he's more of a player who dissects the other team's defense.

I seriously couldn't think of a better situation for Ginobili ... just as I can't think of a player I'd rather having playing Ginobili's role rather than Ginobili.


This guy is good...

[BonnerDynasty]

25 ppg, 6 rpg, 8 apg, 3 spg, #1 Stunna on the Suns.
































0 Rings.

[Darkwaters]

If Manu played for D'Antoni, he'd be playing 38-42 mpg and would be completely out of gas by mid-February.

You will note the second part of my initial post.

[Phenomanul]

He'd probably average less on the Suns. Coming off the bench for the Spurs, he has the ball in his hands a ton and gets a huge amount of touches throughout the game. On the Suns, every possession goes through Steve Nash so Ginobili's playmaking opportunities would be far limited. Players who score a lot on the Suns are players who are strictly finishers who don't create much of their own offense ... for example, Shawn Marion. Ginobili would be lucky to get half the touches on the Suns that he gets on the Spurs. And I haven't even taken into account the Tim Duncan effect of making the game easier for everyone on the Spurs, without having to even touch the ball.

And really, Ginobili is already fourth in the league is points per minute behind LeBron, Kobe and Boozer. LeBron is averaging .77 points per minute, while Ginobili averages .72 points per minute. There really isn't that much room for improvement. Plus, he's not a chucker and I don't think the Spurs are holding him back from scoring at all. He's pretty much in the most optimal position. While a faster pace could help, Ginobili isn't much of a gunner ... he's more of a player who dissects the other team's defense.

I seriously couldn't think of a better situation for Ginobili ... just as I can't think of a player I'd rather having playing Ginobili's role rather than Ginobili.


That's the thing though.... Manu is such a special player and fully capable of adapting to any style of play; personally I'd imagine that Ginobili would be able to carve out a role for himself on any team, in any style. He is Mr. Efficient.

I still don't see how Nash's presence would diminish his own abilities. For example, Manu is a much better passer than Diaw or Barbosa, and yet they too are able to create for others on the Suns. You mention Marion's unique 'dependence' on Nash, now imagine Ginobili feeding him or Stoudemire off of pick 'n rolls... I believe that Ginobili is as creative as Nash. I just think that he picks his spots and dramatically restrains that aspect of his game for the best of the team (1, to cut back on turnovers and 2, to prevent Pop from having a cardiac arrest every trip down the floor :lol). If anything, the Suns' particular run'n'gun style could probably unleash a 'flashier' Ginobili - if such a thing were possible. Imagine how many lob passes he could throw to Stoudemire or Marion... Ginobili like Barry, are exceptional lob passers but unfortunately our personnel (the Spurs' bigs) don't complement that type of play (Oberto and Duncan - short hops, and Elson - bad hands).

I agree that Ginobili is in the perfect situation (I wouldn't want it any other way); but it would be hard to say that he couldn't succeed to the same degree if he were on a team like the Suns. It diminishes the value of his versatility and his uniqueness. His competitive fire alone would be enough to make that team championship worthy and perhaps even take them over the proverbial hump.

Having said that, it's all very speculative anyway. One thing is for sure, Ginobili's game never fails to surprise me... Which is why whenever he is on the floor, you can never count that team out.

[peskypesky]

With Nash feeding him the ball, Manu could easily average 25pts per game.

[2centsworth]

He'd probably average less on the Suns. Coming off the bench for the Spurs, he has the ball in his hands a ton and gets a huge amount of touches throughout the game. On the Suns, every possession goes through Steve Nash so Ginobili's playmaking opportunities would be far limited. Players who score a lot on the Suns are players who are strictly finishers who don't create much of their own offense ... for example, Shawn Marion. Ginobili would be lucky to get half the touches on the Suns that he gets on the Spurs. And I haven't even taken into account the Tim Duncan effect of making the game easier for everyone on the Spurs, without having to even touch the ball.

And really, Ginobili is already fourth in the league is points per minute behind LeBron, Kobe and Boozer. LeBron is averaging .77 points per minute, while Ginobili averages .72 points per minute. There really isn't that much room for improvement. Plus, he's not a chucker and I don't think the Spurs are holding him back from scoring at all. He's pretty much in the most optimal position. While a faster pace could help, Ginobili isn't much of a gunner ... he's more of a player who dissects the other team's defense.

I seriously couldn't think of a better situation for Ginobili ... just as I can't think of a player I'd rather having playing Ginobili's role rather than Ginobili.
can't disagree more. Ginobilli is a way above average finisher and would get 10 points on the break alone. Add in his 3 point shooting and cutting ability and he averages 25ppg without a problem. Guys like Marion and the rest of the scrubs would get less. Also, Ginobilli would more than likely be the backup PG in Phoenix.

[meta2007]

Nash cannot play with a sg, like Manu, Kobe, Tmac, or Wade.

I think Ray Allen is probably a perfect fit for Nash!

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

How he be allow on team with such coach as the Dantoni? He not allow player the understand what defense be.

[Nashfan]

Manu would do just fine on the Suns. It is ridiculous to think that he and Nash could not exist on the floor at the same time. Nash would get him so many open looks and Manu could be the backup point guard and have plenty of scorers to get assists off of. The Suns share the ball just fine, Nash is not a ballhog and Hill is getting quite a few assists himself while playing with and without Nash on the floor as is Barbosa. Manu seems like the kind of player who likes to go full speed and would increase his scoring if he played on the Suns in my opinion.

[TDMVPDPOY]

if he played on the suns?



dont cry too me when bowen feet shuffles :D:D his ass

[The Truth #6]

I thought Manu was already on a team with D'Antoni in Italy and they did well together. So I think they could co-exist. And overall, its hard for me to imagine a team that Manu couldn't contribute on.

I think if his stats were really to explode it would be on a young athletic team like Atlanta that could his use his talent and leadership.

[timvp]

can't disagree more. Ginobilli is a way above average finisher and would get 10 points on the break alone. Add in his 3 point shooting and cutting ability and he averages 25ppg without a problem. Guys like Marion and the rest of the scrubs would get less. Also, Ginobilli would more than likely be the backup PG in Phoenix.You do realize Manu is averaging over 21 points already, right? And nobody in league history has averaged 10 fast break points per game.

If Manu averaged 25 points per game in the minutes he's playing now, that'd give him the highest point per minute mark since Michael Jordan in his prime. That'd be a stretch of the imagination to say that Manu would be averaging more points per minute than anyone has in the last two decades. Not that Manu isn't a great player, but mass scoring isn't even the best aspect to his game.

I think those who think Manu could be doing better elsewhere don't realize exactly what Ginobili is doing this season. He almost literally couldn't be playing any better.

[timvp]

That's the thing though.... Manu is such a special player and fully capable of adapting to any style of play; personally I'd imagine that Ginobili would be able to carve out a role for himself on any team, in any style. He is Mr. Efficient.Agree. I said he was in the perfect situation on the Spurs. I didn't say he'd be a failure elsewhere. I'm sure he'd be doing just fine in just about any situation.


I still don't see how Nash's presence would diminish his own abilities. For example, Manu is a much better passer than Diaw or Barbosa, and yet they too are able to create for others on the Suns. Some in this thread seem to think that I insinuated that Ginobili and Nash couldn't coexist. That wasn't the point I was trying to make. My point is that if Ginobili were on a team with Nash, his amount of touches would be greatly diminished. Nash handles the ball much, much more than Parker handles the ball. Ginobili would still be a great player next to Nash, but he wouldn't be the pseudo point guard he is now. Other players on the Suns have good assist numbers, but nobody on their team handles the ball even half as much as Ginobili handles the ball on the Spurs.



You mention Marion's unique 'dependence' on Nash, now imagine Ginobili feeding him or Stoudemire off of pick 'n rolls... I believe that Ginobili is as creative as Nash. I just think that he picks his spots and dramatically restrains that aspect of his game for the best of the team (1, to cut back on turnovers and 2, to prevent Pop from having a cardiac arrest every trip down the floor :lol). If anything, the Suns' particular run'n'gun style could probably unleash a 'flashier' Ginobili - if such a thing were possible. Imagine how many lob passes he could throw to Stoudemire or Marion... Ginobili like Barry, are exceptional lob passers but unfortunately our personnel (the Spurs' bigs) don't complement that type of play (Oberto and Duncan - short hops, and Elson - bad hands).I would agree that Ginobili on the Suns would probably average more assists. The Suns have a lot of good catch-and-finish type players. The Spurs have ....... Duncan, who isn't even really that kind of player.


I agree that Ginobili is in the perfect situation (I wouldn't want it any other way); but it would be hard to say that he couldn't succeed to the same degree if he were on a team like the Suns. It diminishes the value of his versatility and his uniqueness. His competitive fire alone would be enough to make that team championship worthy and perhaps even take them over the proverbial hump.I don't disagree that Ginobili would turn the Suns into a championship team. I don't disagree that Ginobili would succeed wildly in Phoenix. I was simply answering the question the thread starter asked regarding whether Ginobili would average more points on a team like the Suns. I just don't see Ginobili averaging more points than he's averaging now given the same number of minutes. His scoring is already at historic levels ... there really isn't that much room for improvement.

[xamila rey]

Manu and D'antoni in the same team? i never heard about that. which one?

I thought Manu was already on a team with D'Antoni in Italy and they did well together. So I think they could co-exist. And overall, its hard for me to imagine a team that Manu couldn't contribute on.

I think if his stats were really to explode it would be on a young athletic team like Atlanta that could his use his talent and leadership.

[ArgSpursFan.]

If Manu can average 20 ppg with TP at the PG getting around 6 apg, I really son't see why he shouldn't average 25 ppg with Nash getting around 11 apg and playing on a faster paced team.

[101A]

If Nash were on the Spurs, what would he average?DNP - Coaches Decision (at least until he learned to guard somebody)

[WalterBenitez]

25 ppg, 6 rpg, 8 apg, 3 spg, #1 Stunna on the Suns.
0 Rings.

or ... 3 rings :nerd

[SpursIndonesia]

A championship per year.

Not with his matador like defense. :donkey

[meta2007]

Manu is a great playmaker, and he doesn't need to depend on other players' assists. Moreover, he is so unique because of his clutch, creation, and imagination. He is not a person who needs other people to feed.

[TMTTRIO]

Well on a no defense team like the Suns where he wouldn't have to work so hard on defense he would probably average around 25-26 points a game.

[meta2007]

Honestly, I think the only team who is better fit for Manu is Rockets rather than Suns!

[anakha]

Honestly, I think the only team who is better fit for Manu is Rockets rather than Suns!

My head a splode. :dizzy

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

Honestly, I think the only team who is better fit for Manu is Rockets rather than Suns!
I don't see it. Also the Rockets are kind of a hodgepodge of pieces right now with an ambiguous style. They're kind of an ugly team to watch to be honest.



Well on a no defense team like the Suns where he wouldn't have to work so hard on defense he would probably average around 25-26 points a game.

I think it'd be more of the inverse. It'd be probable that he might actually influence other players around him to play the other side of the court harder.

[ancestron]

If I saw Manu Ginobili in a suns uniform I would have to shoot myself.
Even hypothetically, this notion is blasphemy.

But....
If Ginobili was on the suns, they would probably kick everyone's ass fairly efficiently. What has seemed to be the Sun's big problem in the Nash era is that there really hasn't been a highly skilled ball handler/playmaker that can spell Nash when he sits, which means he doesn't rest much, and offensive production tends to decline when he is sitting. Manu could remedy that problem. Get Nash more rest without an offensive decline. Plus Manu is consistently clutch.

Bottom line, Ginobili automaticlly makes whatever team he is on a title contender.

[meta2007]

If there was no Manu, actually, spurs would be also a boring team to watch!

Rockets still lack of one piece to be a championship team, and I think that piece is a player like Manu.

Manu would get more honors in the rockets, and doesn't have to lose his identity.


I don't see it. Also the Rockets are kind of a hodgepodge of pieces right now with an ambiguous style. They're kind of an ugly team to watch to be honest.

[anakha]

Manu would get more honors in the rockets, and doesn't have to lose his identity.

Are you saying Ginobili has no identity now on the Spurs? And that he doesn't get the respect you think he deserves?


If there was no Manu, actually, spurs would be also a boring team to watch!

Oy fucking vey.

[meta2007]

Of course not! I say 'identity' means his identity that he has already have!

But, I think if he went to suns to play with Nash, he probably would lose his identity.


Are you saying Ginobili has no identity now on the Spurs? And that he doesn't get the respect you think he deserves?

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

If there was no Manu, actually, spurs would be also a boring team to watch!

Well, now, obviously, because we've been spoiled they wouldn't be as exciting to watch without Manu. But I disagree that they'd be boring. I still found the Spurs pretty damn entertaining since Duncan and Pop's defense game plan. They've done it better than Houston and Dallas. I'd always have to say "They're not boring. They're Good!" to hecklers when Duncan was alone. Because the inside out game, was always cool. but I guess it's subjective.


Rockets still lack of one piece to be a championship team, and I think that piece is a player like Manu. Maybe. I don't pay enough attention to the Rockets. I just think from what I've seen, it's more mental and coaching, rather than pieces, since they already have T-Mac and Yao. They've been up 2-0 and always choked. So I guess a player like Manu is where they'd get their killer instinct.

[anakha]

Glad you cleared that up.

[meta2007]

It's a great honor for me to make you glad! :drunk


Glad you cleared that up.

[SpursIndonesia]

Fuck Manu Only Fans in this forum ! http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/madrun.gif

[We born to be bad]

Ginobili has 3 offensive options before him (Amare, Marion, Nash/Hill) in Spurs he has only 2 (Duncan/Parker) I think he could 18ppg 30mpg like Barbosa but more rpg and apg.

[Shred]

Obsession noted.

[da_suns_fan__]

If I saw Manu Ginobili in a suns uniform I would have to shoot myself.
Even hypothetically, this notion is blasphemy.



If Suns fans ever saw Ginobili in a Suns uniform, we would shoot ourselves as well.

You can have him.

[JamStone]

18, 5, 5

With a hypothetical like this, you have to go further by saying who he replaces on the current Suns roster in order to get 28 mpg. Raja Bell? Grant Hill? Barbosa? At any rate, as long as Phoenix would still have Nash, Stoudemire, and crybaby Marion, Manu would not get as many touches as he does with the Spurs, despite being on an uptempo team with more possessions. He'd be lucky to get as many touches as he does now.

I think 18, 5, 5 is generous.

[WalterBenitez]

You do realize Manu is averaging over 21 points already, right? And nobody in league history has averaged 10 fast break points per game.

If Manu averaged 25 points per game in the minutes he's playing now, that'd give him the highest point per minute mark since Michael Jordan in his prime. That'd be a stretch of the imagination to say that Manu would be averaging more points per minute than anyone has in the last two decades. Not that Manu isn't a great player, but mass scoring isn't even the best aspect to his game.

I think those who think Manu could be doing better elsewhere don't realize exactly what Ginobili is doing this season. He almost literally couldn't be playing any better.

Good post, taking seriously Manu could do what he's doing because he's "the man" in some situations, not sure he'll be that man in other team.

[SenorSpur]

First off, Manu would be a starter for the Suns. He would create enough offense to balance out Steve Nash's heavy playmaking responsibilities.

Secondly, with more easy baskets off Nash's passing and his open opportunity baskets, his scoring avg would likely be higher.

Third, his assist totat would also be either at or below where he is now. Mainly because he is probably the best passer on the Spurs. He would not be the best passer on the Suns.

[smrattler]

He would average absolute zero titles per year for a career.