Game Thoughts: Spurs @ Warriors - Dec. 11

[timvp]

It’s tough to be satisfied with any aspect of the game tonight. If it weren’t for the Golden State Warriors missing a bunch of easy shots and Matt Bonner having the game of his life, the Spurs would have easily lost by 50.

The worst part of the game was the lack of effort. Some players showed effort at times but the Spurs never had five players on the court really going all out. With Tim Duncan sidelined, one would think that the Spurs would at least show up with a team effort knowing they are shorthanded.

You do have to give a good amount of credit to the Warriors. They played hard and wanted it more than the Spurs. They smelled blood and went in for the kill. The Spurs got outplayed badly in the second quarter and were never able to really make it a ballgame.

Extra props to Stephen Jackson. He has really developed into a very nice player. He’s never going to be a high percentage shooter but every other aspect of his game is vastly improved. His defense was outstanding, his court awareness was good and he’s obviously evolved into the leader of that team.

-Manu Ginobili had an absolute horrible game. I could live with his poor shooting. I could live with his five turnovers in his first ten minutes of action. What I can’t be satisfied with was his total lack of energy and effort for most of his 29 minutes on the court. A couple times he wasn’t even running back on defense hard. I counted at least three times where his lackadaisical transition defense cost the Spurs. Other than a quick flurry in the beginning of the third quarter where he hit three straight shots, he was simply atrocious. It’s no statistical fluke that he ended up with a team worst plus/minus of -21.

-Tony Parker was also pretty horrible. He one upped Ginobili by turning the ball over six times. Overall, he was putrid on the offensive end. Too much dribbling. Too much indecision. Defensively I thought he gave effort in spurts but it wasn’t anything to write to Paris about. I don’t know if he’s hurt or he just depends on Duncan a lot but hasn’t had a quality game since Duncan has been out.

-Bruce Bowen only played 21 minutes against the Warriors because the Spurs were desperate for offense. While he was in there, he did a good job harassing Baron Davis. However, with as difficult as it was for the Spurs to take care of the ball, the Spurs couldn’t afford to have Bowen out there.

-Matt Bonner was far and away the best Spur tonight. Not even close, really. He had a career-high in points and rebounds as he finished with 25 points and 17 rebounds. His energy was there throughout and it really seemed like he was the only Spur who wanted to come away with the win. He was also playing pretty good defense and seemed really comfortable offensively. In the 39 minutes he played, the Spurs had a plus/minus of +6. That means that in the 9 minutes he wasn’t on the court, the Spurs were outscored by 18 points.

-Francisco Elson started and he was horrible. He was constantly out of position defensively to the point of embarrassment. Offensively, he was getting pushed around by players half his size. His only deeming quality was his seven rebounds. But rebounding alone isn’t good enough when Elson is otherwise playing softly and stupidly in every other phase of the game.

-Fabricio Oberto couldn’t get much going tonight. In 21 minutes, he was able to pull down six rebounds and block two shots. However, he struggled with the speed of the Warriors and could never really get into any sort of rhythm.

-Michael Finley started but really didn’t impact the game at all. He hit only 3-of-9 shots from the court, including 1-of-6 three-pointers. His play in the last two games was a big reason why the Spurs got the two wins. Tonight he was invisible, which didn’t exactly help matters.

-I thought Brent Barry was pretty decent tonight. He hit only 1-of-4 shots from the floor but his energy was decently high. He got five rebounds and dished off three assists in 25 minutes of play. He was a part of the Spurs only halfway decent attempt at getting back into the game.

-Jacque Vaughn had a steady game. With Parker struggling, he was actually a welcome sight for once at different points in the game. After 2-for-3 in this game, Vaughn has now hit 11 of his last 13 shot attempts.

-Ime Udoka was called on by Pop to try to change the momentum in the game. Udoka had his moments but also showed why he’s still quite a bit away from being a regular contributor. He had some sloppy passes and forced up a couple of tough shots. The talent and needed skill set is there, he just hasn’t been indoctrinated into the system enough to be especially useful at this point. I don’t think he won any additional playing time with his lukewarm performance.

-Robert Horry was called on in the second half when it became obvious that the other bigs couldn’t play the needed defense. He stepped up and played well defensively. Offensively, he missed the only shot he took. Overall, his effort was good enough and he already seems to be in better shape compared to just a couple games ago.

-When Pop went small in the second quarter that basically ended the game. The Spurs lost 13 points in the beginning of the second quarter when Pop sent the small ball lineup into the game. The bleeding didn’t stop until the Spurs returned to a bigger lineup. How Pop thought he could out small ball the kings of small ball, I’ll never know. Did the Spurs not watch the tape of the Warriors getting beat down by the Los Angeles Lakers because the Lakers refused to go small? And really, small ball is what the Spurs play when they have Duncan surrounded by four smalls. When they have a non-Duncan big surrounded by four small, that’s midget ball that would make Don Nelson blush. Other than that glaring mistake, Pop couldn’t really be blamed for much else. With Duncan out and Ginobili and Parker laying eggs, the Spurs aren’t going to win many games. Even if Bonner plays like the red headed reincarnation of a three-point shooting Wilt Chamberlain.

:smokin

[spurscenter]

I love the regular season, 82 games of drama. At least its not 162. Imagine.

When do the playoffs start? heh

[SenorSpur]

TP and Gino pressed too hard. They were constantly forcing the issue, dribbling too much and trying to do too much on their own. Which played right into the hands of the Warriors swarming defense.

Which leads me to the Spurs wings. Funny how the Spurs lead the league in fewest number of turnovers - until they play a team with quick, swarming, athletic, perimeter players. Players who swipe at the ball and pry it loose before the Spurs players can react. Players who trap them and force the Spurs into an uncharacteristically high number of costly turnovers. Players who seemingly get into passing lanes and disrupt the slow, telegraphed passes of the Spurs. Same thing happened during Warriors game also occurred during the first game versus Dallas. A season-high for turnovers.

As a fan, the shortcomings on the perimeter (the excessive age, lack of quickness, and limited athleticism) are now an old, sort spot for me. While 3-point shooting is desparately needed to space the floor, the fact is all the wing players on this team (not named Manu) get continously outhustled, outquicked and outrun by the younger wing players of the opposition at both ends. Losses like this only compound that deficiency at perimeter.

[ChumpDumper]

Seems like I was better off listening to this one online than watching it.

[whottt]

I agree with your takes although for once...I actually thought Barry sucked up until the Spurs made the run late...in fact I was actively rooting for Pop to pull him off the court at one point because he was so damn sloppy with the ball...the problem was that Manu was worse. He came alive a little bit at the end...which promptly lead to Pop benching him.

I actually thought this might have been one of Jacque Vaughn's best games as a Spur...he actually looked like a full fledged PG at times tonight.



Pop didn't want to win this game...or if he did, he wanted them to have to work for it...but I never saw Pop get pissed off or upset one time tonight...he was completely calm. This was one of those games where he was feeling experimental...Pop hates having a 2 game lead on hte rest of the conference...IMO. I don't think we've ever had a 3 game lead on the conference in his entire coaching tenure.


I don't know what the deal was with Manu and Parker...but they stunk it up and did not want it...they killed the rally...those two...they completely killed it. Even at the FT line...it was like they just didn't care. Possibly the worst game effort wise from Parker and Manu in the same game, ever...

Whole team sucked...except Bonner and Vaughn.



I will say one thing about the ultra small ball lineup...it worked pretty well when he ran it in against Utah and especially Dallas....but it's complete suicide to run it against the Warriors without Duncan in there...especially when Parker and Manu are stinking it up.

[WalterBenitez]

We need Beno when TP sucks, trade Manu and fire POP, that's my favorite combo in these situation :wakeup

[polandprzem]

combo my a$$


:smokin

[polandprzem]

From what I've read that was the night Pop wanted some experiment like whottt said. Going small ball to see how the backourt (possibly the best in the leauge) can handle the athletic guys from Oakland. They couldn't.

Spurs can't win in a b2b and can't win a game with more then 2 day rest. Is this team worth somethin?

[Bruno]

The loss isn't a big surprise. Spurs without Duncan have overachieved by beating Mavs and Jazz.
It's nice to see Vaughn and Bonner turning the corner. Vaughn was 7-27 from the field in November and is 11-13 in December. Bonner was really bad at the start of the season and is now better. With Elson sucking, it will be interesting to see if Bonner moves ahead of him in the rotation when Duncan will be back.
IMO, Parker sucking is because of his injuries and not of because of Duncan being out. Parker usually plays well when Duncan is on the bench.

[smeagol]

From what I've read that was the night Pop wanted some experiment like whottt said. Going small ball to see how the backourt (possibly the best in the leauge) can handle the athletic guys from Oakland. They couldn't.

Spurs can't win in a b2b and can't win a game with more then 2 day rest. Is this team worth somethin?
I think they won all of this years B2B but I guess you were being sarcastic.

[polandprzem]

I think they won all of this years B2B but I guess you were being sarcastic.

bit


But realy I was thinking about a perfect month.

We now got Denver, LA and Suns - pretty important games
Denver - rebounds
LA - Pop vs Jax
Suns - transition D

[team-work]

Even in a loss, it's nice to see a breakout game from Bonner.

Hope he can keep on the good work & be a regular contributor during the playoffs.

No disrespect to Horry, but it's not realistic to expect him to be suddenly on fire in Spring time 2008. Though he has done it many times before, this year he has been playing sparingly up till now. Also, it implies that the frontoffice & the coaches are not doing a good job, having to rely on the same guys to turn up every year.

[wildchild]

When Pop went small in the second quarter that basically ended the game. The Spurs lost 13 points in the beginning of the second quarter when Pop sent the small ball lineup into the game. The bleeding didn’t stop until the Spurs returned to a bigger lineup. How Pop thought he could out small ball the kings of small ball, I’ll never know. Did the Spurs not watch the tape of the Warriors getting beat down by the Los Angeles Lakers because the Lakers refused to go small? And really, small ball is what the Spurs play when they have Duncan surrounded by four smalls. When they have a non-Duncan big surrounded by four small, that’s midget ball that would make Don Nelson blush. Other than that glaring mistake, Pop couldn’t really be blamed for much else. With Duncan out and Ginobili and Parker laying eggs, the Spurs aren’t going to win many games. Even if Bonner plays like the red headed reincarnation of a three-point shooting Wilt Chamberlain.

:smokin

What's fucking Pop smoking? that shit hits... in the 2nd quarter Parker Barry Bonner Udoka Elson? small balls with Elson????? 8:19 remaing second quarter and Elson in when Spurs 27 GSW 30 after those 8 minutes SAS 37 GSW 53.
Without Duncan and with Elson the small isn't a great deal on the contrary it's really killing us:rolleyes

[manubili]

Wow, I didn't see the game... lucky me.

[ATXSPUR]

Trade manu parker and FIRE POP!!! We suck! J/K

That's what I love about the NBA regular season...nobody will remember this game come april.

[sa_butta]

I missed most of the 2nd quarter so I was in shock when we were down by 16 at the half. It seemed like offensive rebounding and turnovers had alot to do with the loss. I also didn't understand why Pop pulled the starters in the middle of the 3rd when we still had a chance at a run, looked like he threw in the towel. But starters back in during the 4th for a late run. Parker's play or lack there of really hurt the offense.

[sa_butta]

Trade manu parker and FIRE POP!!! We suck! J/K

That's what I love about the NBA regular season...nobody will remember this game come april.Manu for Matt Barnes.:spin

[oligarchy]

I could live with his poor shooting. I could live with his five turnovers in his first ten minutes of action. His lacksidasical effort stems from his problems shooting and turning the ball over. I couldn't live with either of those (poor shooting / turnovers). You gave Finley a poor quarterly grade because of poor shooting, yet he has still hustled and increased his assists and rebounds. What's with the double standards?

Everything else is fairly accurate.

[SAGambler]

Guess it was just "one of those games" the Spurs had. Nobody seemed comfortable on the floor. Most of the second quarter they looked like they had heavily buttered popcorn at the break, the way they were handling the ball.

The turnovers which led to god knows how many points, was the difference in the game. You can't keep turning it over and expect to win.

Tony, surprisingly, didn't seem to be interested in driving the lane, and Manu just seemed completely out of sync.

Maybe Pop intended to lose this game to play with different lineups. Like someone else said, I never saw Pop upset at the way things were going. Not like Pop at all.

Maybe the players were trying to tell Pop they want Duncan back on the floor.

Who knows why they played like they did. Almost reminded me of Game 7 in the Pistons-Cavs matchup in the playoffs last year, when Detroit looked like they weren't even interested in playing the game, much less winning it.

I guess we'll see Thursday if this was just one of those "fluke" games that the Spurs have been known to have in the past.

It was hard to watch though.

[m33p0]

Guess it was just "one of those games" the Spurs had. Nobody seemed comfortable on the floor. Most of the second quarter they looked like they had heavily buttered popcorn at the break, the way they were handling the ball.

The turnovers which led to god knows how many points, was the difference in the game. You can't keep turning it over and expect to win.

Tony, surprisingly, didn't seem to be interested in driving the lane, and Manu just seemed completely out of sync.

Maybe Pop intended to lose this game to play with different lineups. Like someone else said, I never saw Pop upset at the way things were going. Not like Pop at all.

Maybe the players were trying to tell Pop they want Duncan back on the floor.

Who knows why they played like they did. Almost reminded me of Game 7 in the Pistons-Cavs matchup in the playoffs last year, when Detroit looked like they weren't even interested in playing the game, much less winning it.

I guess we'll see Thursday if this was just one of those "fluke" games that the Spurs have been known to have in the past.

It was hard to watch though.


season-high 21 turnovers with the warriors converting 24 points off of them.

probably experimenting again. or he might be giving a hand to team who could defeat a certain, eh-em, team?

[41times]

It's one stupid game out of 82. The Spurs were bound to have a let down sooner or later.

When your 2 best shooters go 9 for 28 and the team shoots in the mid 30% and you turn the ball over 21 times. You lose. period no matter who you play.

It's one game, you re-group and move on. No one really cares unless you have 2 or 3 like this in a row and no one will remember it come Playoff time.

[CubanMustGo]

His lacksidasical effort stems from his problems shooting and turning the ball over. I couldn't live with either of those (poor shooting / turnovers). You gave Finley a poor quarterly grade because of poor shooting, yet he has still hustled and increased his assists and rebounds. What's with the double standards?


Shit, dude, Manu scored 74 points the previous two games and has played brilliantly all season. When you can say the same about Fin, get back to us.

What more do you want timvp to say than:


I counted at least three times where his lackadaisical transition defense cost the Spurs. Other than a quick flurry in the beginning of the third quarter where he hit three straight shots, he was simply atrocious.

Seems pretty consistent to me, Mrs. Finley.

[Saguaro]

Ha ha Sperms. The Suns would never lose to a crappy team like Golden State. We always whip their ass just like we do the Lakers.

[oligarchy]

Shit, dude, Manu scored 74 points the previous two games and has played brilliantly all season. When you can say the same about Fin, get back to us.

What more do you want timvp to say than:



Seems pretty consistent to me, Mrs. Finley.
First, I didn't ask for your dumb ass opinion. Secondly, your retort is simply he scored 74 points the previous 2 games? Get a clue and some reading comprehension. The statement was directed at timvp, and I could care less about Finley and his crappy playing. My point, it's not "okay" that Manu was shooting poorly, just the same as it's not "okay" that Finley is shooting poorly. Excuses are lame.

Mrs. Finley -- ha. Finley sucks!

[lurker]

Ha ha Sperms. The Suns would never lose to a crappy team like Golden State. We always whip their ass just like we do the Lakers.
Except when they lost to them by 15 points this season. :lol

[Cry Havoc]

What did Bonner have for breakfast that morning? What did he do so differently that allowed him to... and I never thought I would say this with Bonner... dominate the boards and seemingly score at will?

[T Park]

4 losses out of 21 games.

I'll take that.

Next.

[Saguaro]

Except when they lost to them by 15 points this season. :lol
The Suns had 31 assists on 43 baskets, so it shouldn't really count as a loss.

[SpurYank]

Go out and get yourselves a beer and forget this game. There will be between 16 and 18 more of them.

You will all be singing a different tune come April, May and June.

[peskypesky]

Tony Parker was also pretty horrible...I don’t know if he’s hurt or he just depends on Duncan a lot but hasn’t had a quality game since Duncan has been out.
:smokin

As much as I like Tony Parker, his success is dependent on Tim Duncan, and not the other way around. That's why I still think the Finals MVP shoulda gone to Duncan last year, even if his stats weren't as good as Parker's.

[Cry Havoc]

As much as I like Tony Parker, his success is dependent on Tim Duncan, and not the other way around. That's why I still think the Finals MVP shoulda gone to Duncan last year, even if his stats weren't as good as Parker's.

The same could be said for every penetrating point guard in the league, though. Very few players can dominate without a post-presence if they dive into the lane frequently.

[BonnerDynasty]

No mention of Udoka's defense?

[Bruno]

So Parker is only a good player because of Duncan ?

Let's see what Parker do with Duncan and without Duncan (stats per 40 minutes) :

Parker in 06-07 :

With Duncan :

2155 minutes
FGA : 16.9
FG% : .524
FTA : 5.3
Ast : 6.8
TO : 3.1
Points : 22.2

Without Duncan :

343 minutes
FGA : 21.3
FG% : .494
FTA : 7.5
Ast : 6.1
TO : 3.1
Points : 27.4

Parker in 05-06 :

With Duncan :

2138 minutes
FGA : 16.4
FG% : .564
FTA : 4.5
Ast : 6.4
TO : 3.4
Points : 21.7

Without Duncan :

573 minutes
FGA : 18.3
FG% : .488
FTA : 8.3
Ast : 8.3
TO : 4.8
Points : 24.5


Without Duncan, Parker carry more the offensive load and lost some efficiency but it's not a disaster. It's about the same thing concerning Manu with or without Duncan.
Truth is that, Duncan or not, Parker and Manu are great players. Haters can just STFU.

[BigVee]

I agree that Parker and Ginobili were horrible last night, but I thought their apparent "lack of effort" was more out of frustration with the offense than just don't give a shit tonight. Maybe because of the line-up, I don't know, but the spacing stunk, there was no where to go, guys were not in position to receive a pass when they did get stuck....leading to turnovers, etc. etc., overall a very very poor offensive scheme.

[SpursFanFirst]

What did Bonner have for breakfast that morning? What did he do so differently that allowed him to... and I never thought I would say this with Bonner... dominate the boards and seemingly score at will?

Maybe it was the fact that he really didn't have anyone to compete with on the team, so he was able to play more freely...just a thought. Duncan was out; Gino, Parker, and pretty much everyone else was having an awful showing.
It's kind of like having nothing to lose, so you go all out.

Whatever it was, I'm so glad he had an awesome game! I get tired of all the Bonner hate on this board.

[Russ]

The Spurs are following the typical pattern after a team loses its star. The first few games are overachievement and unexpected success. Guys "step up" as they say and optimism prevails. Then the wall -- like the bumblebee who finally realizes that science says he can't fly. Guys like Bonner start leading the team in scoring and rebounding (and that's not a good sign, it's a bad sign). I wouldn't expect much success from here until Duncan gets back.

[meta2007]

I think this game is more about coaches than players. Nelson won the 1st half, and Pop won the 2nd half. Overall, warriors won this game, but we will win future games. :smokin

[timvp]

His lacksidasical effort stems from his problems shooting and turning the ball over. I couldn't live with either of those (poor shooting / turnovers). You gave Finley a poor quarterly grade because of poor shooting, yet he has still hustled and increased his assists and rebounds. What's with the double standards?First of all, Finley's increases in those categories weren't that big. Second of all, 90% of Finley's value lies in his shooting. It's not like he can help the team in other areas on a consistent basis.

Ginobili on the other hand can go scoreless and still do enough to help the Spurs win.

[timvp]

The Spurs are following the typical pattern after a team loses its star. The first few games are overachievement and unexpected success. Guys "step up" as they say and optimism prevails. Then the wall -- like the bumblebee who finally realizes that science says he can't fly. Good point. That is usually how it goes when a team loses its star. Short term overachieving followed by reality.


No mention of Udoka's defense?Udoka's defense was really good for the most part. The two times he was slow on rotations to shooters, the shooters ended up missing the shots anyways. His defense on Baron Davis was really good and showed promise for the future. If he, like Bowen, can defender multiple positions, that'd make him much more valuable in the future.

As far as this game, the numbers back up Udoka playing good defense:

Points Allowed Per 48 Minutes
I. Udoka 78.0
M. Finley 84.7
R. Horry 90.4
M. Bonner 92.3
F. Oberto 93.8
J. Vaughn 94.6
T. Parker 95.5
F. Elson 98.8
B. Bowen 102.1
B. Barry 107.5
M. Ginobili 107.8

The numbers also highlight the amazingly poor defensive effort displayed by Ginobili.

[E20]

Good thing I didn't attend this game, I would have been harrased so badly. People from Oakland are savages.

[lrrr]

Pop gave the Warriors that game to move them up in the stanings. That way there is a greater probability they will play the Mavs in the first round.

[oligarchy]

Ginobili on the other hand can go scoreless and still do enough to help the Spurs win.
or basically go scoreless, turn the ball over, and help them lose. :cooldevil

[Que Gee]

.

-Michael Finley started but really didn’t impact the game at all. He hit only 3-of-9 shots from the court, including 1-of-6 three-pointers. His play in the last two games was a big reason why the Spurs got the two wins. Tonight he was invisible, which didn’t exactly help matters.

-

I'm not a huge Finley fan...thing was he did start off well, but then he sat forever...I thought Pop left him on the bench way to long. Hard to regain your shooting stroke after you sit for 25min.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm not a huge Finley fan.
:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[ducks]

the problem with the spurs is they thought duncan would play then he did not
they played like they thought duncan would have played
know pop saying he will not play against lakers spurs will know what they have to do

[ducks]

ps spurs with duncan suck with long days off

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

This game reminded me of game one versus Denver last year - no energy, seemingly no desire whatsoever to play basketball. The difference that day was that Duncan was also playing and looked like he should retire.

I am annoyed that we got handled so easily by the Warriors, but not worried. This was a natural let-down game. If they play like this again tomorrow I will start to worry a bit, but I think the moral of the story is that you bet against the Spurs after three or more days of rest! :lol

[mikejones99]

Stephen Jackson would not let them lose this game. It is ok to give ex Spurs a few wins. Beno and Sjax will not be able to do that n a 7 game series