Duncan sits, Bonner shines, Manu plays like trash [Archive]

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 05:55 PM

duncan228

12-12-2007, 06:01 PM

First of all, what the hell is Tim Duncan STILL sitting for?

Duncan is sitting because Pop thinks it's best.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA121207_SpursNotes.en.9220b0c.html

"In fact, Popovich said it is doubtful Duncan will play against the Los Angeles Lakers on Thursday.

“He's probably doubtful for L.A.,” he said, “and we hope he will be likely for Saturday's game (against the Denver Nuggets at the AT&T Center).

“I just think he's not 100 percent, that's for sure. This early in the season, I'm not sure what the wisdom is in playing him when he's 75 or 80 percent.”

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83212

ArgSpursFan.

12-12-2007, 06:02 PM

Ok, Them the 2 games we won last week without Timmy Don't count.
I bet we would´ve lost this game even with Timmy on the floor.
It was just one of those days when nothing goes your way.
Move on.

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 06:03 PM

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 06:04 PM

Ok, Them the 2 games we won last week without Timmy Don't count.
I bet we would´ve lost this game even with Timmy on the floor.
It was just one of those days when nothing goes your way.
Move on.

Those 2 teams don't play small ball. And if you consider Dallas to play small ball, a 7 footer on the floor isn't small ball.

FromWayDowntown

12-12-2007, 06:05 PM

Popovich should really rush players back from injury in the early stages of the regular season; if he doesn't the Spurs might not qualify for the playoffs or something.

Douche, indeed.

Tippecanoe

12-12-2007, 06:05 PM

First of all, what the hell is Tim Duncan STILL sitting for?

better safe than sorry

ArgSpursFan.

12-12-2007, 06:06 PM

Those 2 teams don't play small ball. And if you consider Dallas to play small ball, a 7 footer on the floor isn't small ball.

So, first Its Manu´s fault coze He aint no franchise type of player,now It´s Pop´s fault for going Small.
Make up your mind already.

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 06:06 PM

Popovich should really rush players back from injury in the early stages of the regular season; if he doesn't the Spurs might not qualify for the playoffs or something.

Douche, indeed.

Rush? He has a sprain. He didn't break his leg. Like I said previously, he isn't going to be 100%, unless he plans on sitting him a month. Douche, indeed.

duncan228

12-12-2007, 06:08 PM

That is hilarious. Of course he isn't 100%, they're playing an NBA season. Like I said, he isn't going to be 100%. Golden State is a perfect opportunity to bring him back, and not have him be beat up down low.

Pop doesn't see the wisdom of playing him now. I'll stick with Pop's thoughts on it. He's done pretty well for us.

Duncan is always beat up down low, no matter what the team. And with the running style of the Warriors I was just as glad to have him get more rest on that ankle.

FromWayDowntown

12-12-2007, 06:08 PM

Rush? He has a sprain. He didn't break his leg. Like I said previously, he isn't going to be 100%, unless he plans on sitting him a month. Douche, indeed.

Sprained ankles frequently keep players out for more than 9 days. I'd think the concern would be particularly great where you're dealing: (1) with your franchise player; and (2) with a franchise player who has a history of ankle injuries. But maybe that's just me. Win now, baby -- who cares about later?

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 06:08 PM

So, first Its Manu´s fault coze He aint no franchise type of player,now It´s Pop´s fault for going Small.
Make up your mind already.

It's a shared fault. It's partly Popovich's fault for not bringing Duncan back at an appropriate time, it's partly Manu's fault for playing like absolute garbage last night - add TP to that list as well.

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 06:09 PM

Sprained ankles frequently keep players out for more than 9 days. I'd think the concern would be particularly great where you're dealing: (1) with your franchise player; and (2) with a franchise player who has a history of ankle injuries. But maybe that's just me. Win now, baby -- who cares about later?

You're probably right. Let's wait until the playoffs to bring him back. That way he's perfectly fine. We won't have to worry about any ill effects.

timvp

12-12-2007, 06:10 PM

This thread has so much fail I can't pinpoint a silver lining.

FromWayDowntown

12-12-2007, 06:10 PM

We really should expect the Spurs to win about 75 games this season -- losses on the road to playoff teams playing red-hot basketball are just absolutely inexcusable.

And, really, what the hell are Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili thinking -- who said they were allowed to have bad nights on the exact same day? They're professionals for crissakes; they'd damned well better be absolutely excellent every night they play.

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 06:12 PM

This thread has so much fail I can't pinpoint a silver lining.

Elaborate please. Try using something intelligent instead of using internet nerd slang, such as "so much fail".

baseline bum

12-12-2007, 06:13 PM

Who gives a shit about a game in December? And Manu sucks because he had like one bad game this season? You're not really a Spurs fan are you?

CubanMustGo

12-12-2007, 06:13 PM

Try using something intelligent

Go back to your original post which started this thread and apply your own standard, then get back to us. Thanks.

Or better yet, just delete it because the only thing you're an authority on is stupidity.

Joe Schmoogins

12-12-2007, 06:14 PM

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 06:15 PM

We really should expect the Spurs to win about 75 games this season -- losses on the road to playoff teams playing red-hot basketball are just absolutely inexcusable.

When you're expected to win a game, and you don't... to me, that's something that shouldn't sit OK with a team. What can I say, I have a winner's mentality.

And, really, what the hell are Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili thinking -- who said they were allowed to have bad nights on the exact same day? They're professionals for crissakes; they'd damned well better be absolutely excellent every night they play.

I don't have a problem with them playing badly, if they give the proper effort. The effort wasn't there. They played like 2 scared bitches as soon as the warriors put the heat on them. They crumbled.

FromWayDowntown

12-12-2007, 06:15 PM

Elaborate please. Try using something intelligent instead of using internet nerd slang, such as "so much fail".

My guess is that he means that a thread ranting about some early season loss and complaining that Pop is being cautious with Duncan is probably not a very good thread.

That, or he's calling out you for those complaints while calling out the rest of us for being sucked in and responding to them.

Then again, he might be siding with you and taking the rest of us to task for being far too gullible.

In any event, I do appreciate your willingness to share your opinions. It's been a boring day around here. Not enough "sky is falling" threads, really.

ArgSpursFan.

12-12-2007, 06:15 PM

there´s no way in hell that a team will win all 82 fricking games and be at 1.000.
Shit! we just beated Dallas last week without Timmy!!!
This is a nonsense thread.

timvp

12-12-2007, 06:17 PM

Elaborate please. Try using something intelligent instead of using internet nerd slang, such as "so much fail".Wodie bes up dis ish frontin' like he finna regalate.

FromWayDowntown

12-12-2007, 06:18 PM

When you're expected to win a game, and you don't... to me, that's something that shouldn't sit OK with a team. What can I say, I have a winner's mentality.

The Spurs are expected to win just about every game they play. Despite that, they'll lose (most likely) somewhere between 15-25 of those games this season. Are you really going to be this pissed every time they lose to some inferior team? If so, it's going to be a long season for you.

I have a winner's mentality, too. I just understand that there is a reality that means that you don't always win.

I don't have a problem with them playing badly, if they give the proper effort. The effort wasn't there. They played like 2 scared bitches as soon as the warriors put the heat on them. They crumbled.

And we've seen over time that neither of those players ever comes up big when it really matters for the Spurs. I can definitely see your concern.

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 06:19 PM

My guess is that he means that a thread ranting about some early season loss and complaining that Pop is being cautious with Duncan is probably not a very good thread.

As opposed to the countless threads entitled "Is Manu a franchise player?", "Is Tony Parker a franchise player?", "Is The Coyote a franchise player?"? I can see your point. I definitely can.

Then again, he might be siding with you

That would be a smart decision.

Mister Sinister

12-12-2007, 06:20 PM

That would be a stupid decision.
Ficst.

ArgSpursFan.

12-12-2007, 06:21 PM

you´re a not a franchise ST poster.That´s for sure

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 06:21 PM

The Spurs are expected to win just about every game they play. Despite that, they'll lose (most likely) somewhere between 15-25 of those games this season. Are you really going to be this pissed every time they lose to some inferior team? If so, it's going to be a long season for you.

I have a winner's mentality, too. I just understand that there is a reality that means that you don't always win.

No, I won't be this pissed. Provided the coach does an acceptable job and the players give an acceptable effort on the court.

And we've seen over time that neither of those players ever comes up big when it really matters for the Spurs. I can definitely see your concern.

I vaguely remember Tony Parker sitting on the bench for the majority of the NBA Finals for half of the Spurs championships. Bad example, chief.

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 06:23 PM

Ficst.

Cool sig, bro. I thought this was a basketball forum. Not nerd appreciation forum.

Mister Sinister

12-12-2007, 06:24 PM

Cool sig, bro. I thought this was a basketball forum. Not nerd appreciation forum.
Oooh, nerd smack! You wound me!

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 06:25 PM

All your self esteem are belong to me.

Mister Sinister

12-12-2007, 06:25 PM

All your self esteem are belong to me.
You certainly seem like you need it.

Joe Schmoogins

12-12-2007, 06:26 PM

Cool sig, bro. I thought this was a basketball forum. Not nerd appreciation forum.

You're a dick.

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 06:28 PM

You're a dick.

:lmao

Why, because I speak truths? Well, I suppose...

Tippecanoe

12-12-2007, 06:29 PM

http://www.garmentdistrict.com/store/popculture/southpark/collectibles/ihaves.jpg

word

12-12-2007, 06:30 PM

The Coyote is DEFINETLY a franchise mutt. No doubt about it. WINNER baby !!

timvp

12-12-2007, 06:32 PM

First of all, what the hell is Tim Duncan STILL sitting for? Wasn't there some speculation he MIGHT even start against UTAH? GS is a perfect game for him to come back. They have no inside players whatsoever, he would have a field day inside, even at 70%. Obviously the Spurs are going to be in trouble without Duncan vs GS. GS is a better team than them without Duncan, especially at home. They showed it last night. Duncan is the difference maker against a small ball team like them. I have news for Popovich, unless you bring Duncan back in a month... he's not going to be 100%. You should have brought him back last night, when the team really needed him. Nice move, douche.It's early December. Pop didn't think Duncan was ready to play. Duncan didn't argue with Pop to try to get on the court.

You rest Duncan as long as he needs. Until Duncan is 95-100%, there is no need to bring him back.

I love the Matt Bonner haters. He has a game Kevin Garnett would aspire to have... and yet, people still manage to complain about something he does wrong. Excellent. Maybe it's because he has red hair? I don't know. What I do know is that I was right about him. I was particularly right about him being 10x better than Horry. Last night only confirms that. Yeah, you really believe Horry could put up 25 and 17, on 3-4 from 3? Riiight. :lmao Oh wait, Horry can block a shot every now and then! He's clearly more valuable to the team than Bonner!First of all, I've never even seen you say anything about Bonner. Don't try to front like you some MBFFL or some ish.

Second of all, I've liked Bonner before you knew who he was but he's not more valuable to this team than Horry. Horry is still the better defender and still understands understands the offense better than any other big on this team outside of Duncan. Bonner has started to play better as of late but he's not to the point where he's going to play Horry's minutes in the playoffs.

Another thing last night confirms is that when I said Manu cannot be a franchise player, I was also right. See, when Tim has a bad shooting game, it isn't nearly as bad as the game Manu had last night, because he impacts the game in so many other facets. That's because he is a franchise player. All Manu did was turn the ball over and play terrible defense. He looked like he was scared/rattled out there. Not surprisingly, they lost. Franchise players can bring it on a consistent basis. Manu can have great games. Manu cannot have great games consistently throughout a season being the primary option - being the defenses primary option to stop.Ripping Manu after two great games when he has his first bad game of the season is lame. If he has one bad game for every 20 good games, he's playing better than 98% of the NBA.

That is all.Thank Got.

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 06:33 PM

The Coyote is DEFINETLY a franchise mutt. No doubt about it. WINNER baby !!

I could respond with something funny to that, but the Mods will just edit it again.

dg7md

12-12-2007, 06:35 PM

I'm glad Duncan is still sitting. He shouldn't push himself for the regular season too much. I'd feel pretty good if he waited until next week to return to the lineup.

Mister Sinister

12-12-2007, 06:37 PM

I could respond with something funny to that, but the Mods will just edit it again.
You don't need the mods to make yourself look like an idiot.

ambchang

12-12-2007, 06:38 PM

See, when Tim has a bad shooting game, it isn't nearly as bad as the game Manu had last night, because he impacts the game in so many other facets.
Didn't Duncan play like crap earlier this year vs. the Lakers? Parker and Ginobili saved his ass, didn't they?

FromWayDowntown

12-12-2007, 06:38 PM

No, I won't be this pissed. Provided the coach does an acceptable job and the players give an acceptable effort on the court.

And what if the coach is experimenting, knowing that his team will face some different circumstances over the course of a long playoff run and will have to adapt to those circumstances. Experimenting during the regular season, even at the cost of losing games, has never worked out for Popovich. You know, Pop's famous "win 'em all at all costs" strategy is really his hallmark.

As to the players -- meh, they gave a bad effort last night; on the whole they give a great effort far more often than most NBA teams do over the course of a long season. These guys fight much bigger battles than a mid-December game in Oakland. Talk to me when the effort isn't there as we get closer to the playoffs.

I vaguely remember Tony Parker sitting on the bench for the majority of the NBA Finals for half of the Spurs championships. Bad example, chief.

Well, I vividly remember Tony Parker hoisting an MVP trophy during the Spurs most recent championship. I also remember him playing 38 mpg against the Pistons in 2005 and 37 mpg against Cleveland in 2007, leaving very little time for him to be "sitting on the bench" in either of those series. Since the Spurs have won 4 titles, and Parker has played an overwhelming fraction of the minutes played during 2 of those title runs, I'm thinking its your retort, not my example, that needs fixin'.

ChumpDumper

12-12-2007, 06:40 PM

spurfans lose their minds after a regular season loss.

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 06:41 PM

You rest Duncan as long as he needs. Until Duncan is 95-100%, there is no need to bring him back.

So in other words, you want Duncan to sit until January 13th, if need be. I agree completely.

First of all, I've never even seen you say anything about Bonner. Don't try to front like you some MBFFL or some ish.

I've frequently bashed Horry in favor of Bonner.

Second of all, I've liked Bonner before you knew who he was

Unless you liked him when he played at Florida, then you're wrong in your assumption.

Horry is still the better defender and still understands understands the offense better than any other big on this team outside of Duncan. Bonner has started to play better as of late but he's not to the point where he's going to play Horry's minutes in the playoffs.

His understanding of the game doesn't stop him from shooting 30%. If I have Duncan on the floor controlling the inside on D, I want somebody that can actually make shots with Duncan on offense. I guess you're not a big fan of logic.

Ripping Manu after two great games when he has his first bad game of the season is lame. If he has one bad game for every 20 good games, he's playing better than 98% of the NBA.

Great games? Well, he scored 37 in that previous game, but he shot horribly. Most NBA players can score if they're given a ton of opportunities. Depends what you consider a great game.

word

12-12-2007, 06:41 PM

Those aren't really Spurs fans.

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 06:44 PM

Didn't Duncan play like crap earlier this year vs. the Lakers? Parker and Ginobili saved his ass, didn't they?

If I remember correctly, he shot badly but still impacted the game, something Parker and Ginobili typically don't do when they aren't scoring.

Tippecanoe

12-12-2007, 06:44 PM

spurfans lose their minds after a regular season loss.

imagine a playoff loss :wow

duncan228

12-12-2007, 06:44 PM

spurfans lose their minds after a regular season loss.

"TheAuthority" didn't have a mind to lose when he got here.

Mister Sinister

12-12-2007, 06:45 PM

"TheAuthority" didn't have a mind to lose when he got here.
Oh, wait...I see what you did there.

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 06:47 PM

"TheAuthority" didn't have a mind to lose when he got here.

Wow, good one, bro. I bet that took a lot of use out of that great mind of your's. You really showed me!

timvp

12-12-2007, 06:48 PM

So in other words, you want Duncan to sit until January 13th, if need be. I agree completely.Then wipe away the tears.

I've frequently bashed Horry in favor of Bonner.I don't think you should be proud of bashing Horry. Did you forget to watch the playoffs last year?

Unless you liked him when he played at Florida, then you're wrong in your assumption.Looks like I was right.

His understanding of the game doesn't stop him from shooting 30%. If I have Duncan on the floor controlling the inside on D, I want somebody that can actually make shots with Duncan on offense. I guess you're not a big fan of logic.Again, did you watch the playoffs last year? Horry shot 42% from the floor, even around 60% of his attempts were three-pointers. I guess you aren't a big fan of the playoffs.

Great games? Well, he scored 37 in that previous game, but he shot horribly. Most NBA players can score if they're given a ton of opportunities. Depends what you consider a great game.That previous game? You mean those previous two games? You must not be a big fan of the Spurs if you don't even know what's going on.

And shot horribly? Manu shot 47% during that two game stretch. You must not be a big fan of math.

Mister Sinister

12-12-2007, 06:48 PM

Wow, good one, bro. I bet that took a lot of use out of that great mind of your's. You really showed me!
Simple smack for a simpleton.

ChumpDumper

12-12-2007, 06:48 PM

37 points from 21 shots is horrible?

timvp

12-12-2007, 06:49 PM

37 points from 21 shots is horrible?He's not a big fan of box scores.

Tippecanoe

12-12-2007, 06:49 PM

Wow, good one, bro. I bet that took a lot of use out of that great mind of your's. You really showed me!

duncan228, you should start keeping some kinda tally on your sig or something :p:

FromWayDowntown

12-12-2007, 06:50 PM

Great games? Well, he scored 37 in that previous game, but he shot horribly. Most NBA players can score if they're given a ton of opportunities. Depends what you consider a great game.

Yeah, Manu didn't impact that Utah game at all, despite his "horrible" shooting -- he shot 43% from the floor for the game and 50% on shots inside the arc; we really should expect more from the guy!!

How can anyone think that a guy impacts a game when he only collected 8 boards, rolled up 6 assists, grabbed 3 steals, blocked one shot, forced Utah to change its defense to account for him, contested numerous passes on the defensive end, and forced who knows how many turnovers?

duncan228

12-12-2007, 06:52 PM

duncan228, you should start keeping some kinda tally on your sig or something :p:

I stopped counting after I got a spur for it! :lol

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 06:57 PM

I don't think you should be proud of bashing Horry. Did you forget to watch the playoffs last year?

Yes, I watched them. Elaboration coming later in the post.

Again, did you watch the playoffs last year? Horry shot 42% from the floor, even around 60% of his attempts were three-pointers. I guess you aren't a big fan of the playoffs.

Where he shot 42% from the field? 35% from 3? Those numbers are absolutely atrocious, especially for a big man. Make no mistake about it.

That previous game? You mean those previous two games? You must not be a big fan of the Spurs if you don't even know what's going on.

I mean the game where he shot 9-21 against Utah. Where he had to get 17 of his points from the referees.

And shot horribly? Manu shot 47% during that two game stretch. You must not be a big fan of math.

9-21. Point made.

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 07:00 PM

37 points from 21 shots is horrible?

When you're getting Dwayne Wade treatment it is.

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 07:02 PM

Yeah, Manu didn't impact that Utah game at all, despite his "horrible" shooting -- he shot 43% from the floor for the game and 50% on shots inside the arc; we really should expect more from the guy!!

How can anyone think that a guy impacts a game when he only collected 8 boards, rolled up 6 assists, grabbed 3 steals, blocked one shot, forced Utah to change its defense to account for him, contested numerous passes on the defensive end, and forced who knows how many turnovers?

Where did I say he didn't have a solid game? People are acting like he was some sort of Godsend. Simply wasn't the case.

timvp

12-12-2007, 07:03 PM

Where he shot 42% from the field? 35% from 3? Those numbers are absolutely atrocious, especially for a big man. Make no mistake about it.Those are good numbers for a guy who mostly shoot threes. His true shooting percentage after factoring in the three-pointers was 52.5% from the field. Still atrocious? Looks like you made a mistake about it.

I mean the game where he shot 9-21 against Utah. Where he had to get 17 of his points from the referees.37 points on 21 shots. You are seriously going to complain about that?

9-21. Point made.37 points on 21 shots. Point lost.

Mister Sinister

12-12-2007, 07:04 PM

When you're getting Dwayne Wade treatment it is.
http://masklinnscans.free.fr/4chan/doing_it_wrong.jpg

Mr.Bottomtooth

12-12-2007, 07:04 PM

http://masklinnscans.free.fr/4chan/doing_it_wrong.jpg
:lmao

E20

12-12-2007, 07:05 PM

Hmmmmmmmmm Page number 3 going on page number 4.

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 07:09 PM

Those are good numbers for a guy who mostly shoot threes. His true shooting percentage after factoring in the three-pointers was 52.5% from the field. Still atrocious? Looks like you made a mistake about it.

Throw whatever fancy stats out you want. Fact of the matter is, he is there to contribute 3 point shooting and spread the floor for Duncan on offense. He converted at a 35% success rate. That is terrible. There's no way around it.

37 points on 21 shots. You are seriously going to complain about that?

Not going to complain. I'm going to say the referees gave him the majority of his points. Handed them to him, on a platter.

37 points on 21 shots.

20 points and 17 from the referees.

FromWayDowntown

12-12-2007, 07:10 PM

Where did I say he didn't have a solid game? People are acting like he was some sort of Godsend. Simply wasn't the case.

You're talking throughout this thread about players impacting a game when they aren't shooting well. Taking at face value your assertion that Manu didn't shoot the ball well against Utah, it's clear that he did impact that game significantly, despite his "poor" shooting. And the Spurs don't win that game if Manu doesn't impact it the way that he did. I'm not sure why you fight against those seemingly-apparent truths.

BonnerDynasty

12-12-2007, 07:11 PM

First of all, what the hell is Tim Duncan STILL sitting for? Wasn't there some speculation he MIGHT even start against UTAH? GS is a perfect game for him to come back. They have no inside players whatsoever, he would have a field day inside, even at 70%. Obviously the Spurs are going to be in trouble without Duncan vs GS. GS is a better team than them without Duncan, especially at home. They showed it last night. Duncan is the difference maker against a small ball team like them. I have news for Popovich, unless you bring Duncan back in a month... he's not going to be 100%. You should have brought him back last night, when the team really needed him. Nice move, douche.

I love the Matt Bonner haters. He has a game Kevin Garnett would aspire to have... and yet, people still manage to complain about something he does wrong. Excellent. Maybe it's because he has red hair? I don't know. What I do know is that I was right about him. I was particularly right about him being 10x better than Horry. Last night only confirms that. Yeah, you really believe Horry could put up 25 and 17, on 3-4 from 3? Riiight. :lmao Oh wait, Horry can block a shot every now and then! He's clearly more valuable to the team than Bonner!

Another thing last night confirms is that when I said Manu cannot be a franchise player, I was also right. See, when Tim has a bad shooting game, it isn't nearly as bad as the game Manu had last night, because he impacts the game in so many other facets. That's because he is a franchise player. All Manu did was turn the ball over and play terrible defense. He looked like he was scared/rattled out there. Not surprisingly, they lost. Franchise players can bring it on a consistent basis. Manu can have great games. Manu cannot have great games consistently throughout a season being the primary option - being the defenses primary option to stop.

That is all.

Way to take one horrible game and generalize it as the norm.

Can't argue about Bonner. He is a modern day Viking just conquering Warriors he is suppose to conquer.

Mr.Bottomtooth

12-12-2007, 07:12 PM

20 points and 17 from the referees.

:lol

Tippecanoe

12-12-2007, 07:12 PM

Kori Ellis

12-12-2007, 07:13 PM

.

20 points and 17 from the referees.

Did the 17 "from the referees" not count or something?
:lol

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 07:13 PM

You're talking throughout this thread about players impacting a game when they aren't shooting well. Taking at face value your assertion that Manu didn't shoot the ball well against Utah, it's clear that he did impact that game significantly, despite his "poor" shooting. And the Spurs don't win that game if Manu doesn't impact it the way that he did. I'm not sure why you fight against those seemingly-apparent truths.

See, I'm going to go back to the playoffs 2 years ago against Dallas, when Dirk was winning the game at the foul line. That is essentially what Manu did against Utah. Granted, Manu is a better penetrator than Dirk, but it's still the same. Games should not be won at the foul line. Getting nearly 20 attempts at the foul line is ridiculous. I watched the game also, some of those calls given to him were questionable. Sorry, I'm not as biased as everyone else here.

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 07:14 PM

that may be the most idiotic thing you've said all day

35% is good? I don't see what you're trying to say. I could shoot 35% on wide open 3's.

Que Gee

12-12-2007, 07:15 PM

Timmy is still not moving around that well. He could get by if it was the playoffs, but against a run and gun team like the Warriors, it wouldn't have been a good idea. He was moving around "all right" in shoot around, but he was HEAVILY icing afterwards. I think if it were slower teams they were playing instead of the Warriors and Lakers, he'd probably be in the line up.

timvp

12-12-2007, 07:15 PM

Throw whatever fancy stats out you want. Fact of the matter is, he is there to contribute 3 point shooting and spread the floor for Duncan on offense. He converted at a 35% success rate. That is terrible. There's no way around it.First of all, 35% is above average in the NBA. Above average does not equal terrible. There's no way around it.

Second of all, would you rather have a player who shoots 50% who never shoots three-pointers or a three-point shooter who only shoots threes but makes 35% of his attempts? Thanks in advance.

Not going to complain. I'm going to say the referees gave him the majority of his points. Handed them to him, on a platter.You obviously didn't see him earning all those calls. Watch more. Thanks in advance.

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 07:16 PM

Did the 17 "from the referees" not count or something?
:lol

They counted. They also counted when Dirk owned the Spurs from the line in the playoffs. Spurs fans were pretty irate about that. They're perfectly fine with it when it's Manu, though.

ArgSpursFan.

12-12-2007, 07:16 PM

Tippecanoe

12-12-2007, 07:16 PM

35% is good? I don't see what you're trying to say. I could shoot 35% on wide open 3's.

actually, thats exactly what im trying to say. 35% three point shooting is pretty good. while its not mindblowing, its definitely not, in your words, "terrible"

timvp

12-12-2007, 07:17 PM

They counted. They also counted when Dirk owned the Spurs from the line in the playoffs. Spurs fans were pretty irate about that. They're perfectly fine with it when it's Manu, though.The Jazz send players to the line more than any team in the NBA. It's part of their strategy.

There's no way around it.

ChumpDumper

12-12-2007, 07:17 PM

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 07:17 PM

You obviously didn't see him earning all those calls. Watch more. Thanks in advance.

I watched the game. I like Manu, but he flails around too much when there is minimal contact. I could just imagine my thoughts on him if he wasn't on the Spurs.

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 07:18 PM

You said all the calls were bad and Manu deserved none of them. Why back off from that now?

Way to over-exaggerate.

Manu-of-steel

12-12-2007, 07:20 PM

FromWayDowntown

12-12-2007, 07:23 PM

See, I'm going to go back to the playoffs 2 years ago against Dallas, when Dirk was winning the game at the foul line. That is essentially what Manu did against Utah. Granted, Manu is a better penetrator than Dirk, but it's still the same. Games should not be won at the foul line. Getting nearly 20 attempts at the foul line is ridiculous. I watched the game also, some of those calls given to him were questionable. Sorry, I'm not as biased as everyone else here.

Fine, he shot a lot of free throws; my point has little to do with how many points he scored and a whole lot to do with the fact that Manu made a substantial difference in that game in areas that have little to do with scoring the basketball. Again, I thought your point in distinguishing Manu from Duncan was saying that Tim can impact a game (in a positive way) even when he isn't shooting the ball well; my response to you is that for as much as you want to blast Manu for not doing that in Oakland, I can counter you with the non-scoring contributions that Manu made against Utah (and frankly, has made in a significant number of games this season).

I'm not arguing that Manu is more important to the Spurs than Tim or that Manu is a franchise player. The point is that Manu is a player who can (and frequently does) have a significant positive impact on the game even when he isn't scoring the basketball.

ChumpDumper

12-12-2007, 07:23 PM

Way to over-exaggerate.

20 points and 17 from the referees.

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 07:24 PM

everyone wants to be a winner. it feels like sh.. everytime our team loses. But we have to take it in stride, let's rest timmy and make sure he's healthy before he plays. Haven't we learned popovich's principle? we play in the regular season to prepare for greater battle ahead. Go spurs go!

I'm not even going to fuck with this response, because I agree with it almost totally. I will say one thing, there isn't much to learn that's positive from Popovich. He's cost the Spurs at least one championship. I have no doubt in my mind that's the truth.

E20

12-12-2007, 07:25 PM

The Authority, answer me this:

FromWayDowntown

12-12-2007, 07:26 PM

I'm not even going to fuck with this response, because I agree with it almost totally. I will say one thing, there isn't much to learn that's positive from Popovich. He's cost the Spurs at least one championship. I have no doubt in my mind that's the truth.

Hmm, and I'm sure that .4 and a bad foul cost the Spurs 2 titles -- it's probably time to deal Manu since the dude just doesn't get it done when it matters most and obviously doesn't know how to contribute to winning titles.

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 07:27 PM

Fine, he shot a lot of free throws; my point has little to do with how many points he scored and a whole lot to do with the fact that Manu made a substantial difference in that game in areas that have little to do with scoring the basketball. Again, I thought your point in distinguishing Manu from Duncan was saying that Tim can impact a game (in a positive way) even when he isn't shooting the ball well; my response to you is that for as much as you want to blast Manu for not doing that in Oakland, I can counter you with the non-scoring contributions that Manu made against Utah (and frankly, has made in a significant number of games this season).

I'm not arguing that Manu is more important to the Spurs than Tim or that Manu is a franchise player. The point is that Manu is a player who can (and frequently does) have a significant positive impact on the game even when he isn't scoring the basketball.

I don't question he impacts the game in other areas. My assertion was that he doesn't impact the game the way a franchise player does. Manu is not used to be the guy they key in to stop night in and night out. Like a Vince Carter, Kobe Bryant, AI(6ers), etc. He's never proven that he can be "the man".

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 07:30 PM

Hmm, and I'm sure that .4 and a bad foul cost the Spurs 2 titles -- it's probably time to deal Manu since the dude just doesn't get it done when it matters most and obviously doesn't know how to contribute to winning titles.

You're getting the wrong impression. lol I do like Manu. I have a fucking Manu jersey. I don't discredit anything he's done for the Spurs. My main points are:
1) He doesn't impact the game the way Duncan, or any other franchise player does.
2) He didn't bring the effort I expect of a professional basketball player against the Golden State Warriors.

ChumpDumper

12-12-2007, 07:31 PM

Like a Vince Carter:rollin

Tippecanoe

12-12-2007, 07:31 PM

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 07:32 PM

:rollin

Like it or not, Spurs fans... Vince Carter is one of, if not the most talented offensive player in the league. He is like the Randy Moss of the NBA. If he tries and his head is right, the guy cannot be guarded. That's what seperates him and Kobe, Kobe has the fire... Vince used to have it, and now it's gone.

timvp

12-12-2007, 07:32 PM

First of all, 35% is above average in the NBA. Above average does not equal terrible. There's no way around it.

Second of all, would you rather have a player who shoots 50% who never shoots three-pointers or a three-point shooter who only shoots threes but makes 35% of his attempts? Thanks in advance.Bump.

FromWayDowntown

12-12-2007, 07:32 PM

I don't question he impacts the game in other areas. My assertion was that he doesn't impact the game the way a franchise player does. Manu is not used to be the guy they key in to stop night in and night out. Like a Vince Carter, Kobe Bryant, AI(6ers), etc. He's never proven that he can be "the man".

I don't know any reasonable poster around here who has ever argued that Manu is a franchise player. Certainly, there is a big leap from being an All-Star to being a franchise guy, but I have no doubt that Manu is in the former category and not the latter category. I'm not sure why there's any point in really arguing that -- I'm not sure who might have argued that Manu was anything more than an All-Star caliber player.

timvp

12-12-2007, 07:36 PM

Ironically enough, Vince Carter's career shooting percentage translates close to 9-for-21 . . .

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 07:36 PM

First of all, 35% is above average in the NBA. Above average does not equal terrible. There's no way around it.

35% in my eyes is terrible. Sorry, there's no way to change my mind. I don't care what the league average is. Do they count half court 3's at the end of quarters? Probably. Do they count 3's hoisted up by big men to beat a shot clock every now and then? Probably.

Second of all, would you rather have a player who shoots 50% who never shoots three-pointers or a three-point shooter who only shoots threes but makes 35% of his attempts? Thanks in advance.

I would rather have Matt Bonner.

FromWayDowntown

12-12-2007, 07:37 PM

You're getting the wrong impression. lol I do like Manu. I have a fucking Manu jersey. I don't discredit anything he's done for the Spurs. My main points are:
1) He doesn't impact the game the way Duncan, or any other franchise player does.
2) He didn't bring the effort I expect of a professional basketball player against the Golden State Warriors.

I'm not questioning whether you like or dislike Manu, I'm questioning your apportionment of blame for the seasons in which the Spurs tragically failed to win titles.

That aside, what strikes me as odd about this thread is the fact that you've gone to such lengths to bash a guy whose supreme effort is unquestionable in 99% of the games that he plays. Manu had a bad night and didn't appear to play very hard; I don't think any reasonable person would dispute those statements. The question is whether he should be ripped to shreds because, for the first time this season, those things could be said about him. Ginobili's effort is one of the few constants for the Spurs over the last 4-5 years; to lambaste him for having one subpar game in that regard strikes me as ridiculously over-demanding.

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 07:37 PM

I don't know any reasonable poster around here who has ever argued that Manu is a franchise player. Certainly, there is a big leap from being an All-Star to being a franchise guy, but I have no doubt that Manu is in the former category and not the latter category. I'm not sure why there's any point in really arguing that -- I'm not sure who might have argued that Manu was anything more than an All-Star caliber player.

There are a lot of people around this board that think he has the capability to be a franchise player after he has a couple of good games.

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 07:39 PM

Ironically enough, Vince Carter's career shooting percentage translates close to 9-for-21 . . .

Vince Carter has gotten double and triple teamed his entire career. It's a little different from Manu. He doesn't have a Tim Duncan to divert all of the attention away from him. Also, factor in that some nights he just doesn't care. He'll take 32 foot 3's, etc. etc.

FromWayDowntown

12-12-2007, 07:40 PM

There are a lot of people around this board that think he has the capability to be a franchise player after he has a couple of good games.

So your post is aimed entirely at those who are most unreasonable around here?

FromWayDowntown

12-12-2007, 07:42 PM

Vince Carter has gotten double and triple teamed his entire career. It's a little different from Manu. He doesn't have a Tim Duncan to divert all of the attention away from him. Also, factor in that some nights he just doesn't care. He'll take 32 foot 3's, etc. etc.

So wait, Carter gets a pass (and, actually, a bump in esteem) because there are some nights that he just doesn't care, but Manu should be ripped a new one because last night he cared but didn't give the balls out effort we're all so used to seeing?

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 07:45 PM

I'm not questioning whether you like or dislike Manu, I'm questioning your apportionment of blame for the seasons in which the Spurs tragically failed to win titles.

I would need an entire post to place the blame on everyone needed. I will mention 3 names that come to mind. Gregg Popovich, Tony Parker, Hedo Turkoglu.

That aside, what strikes me as odd about this thread is the fact that you've gone to such lengths to bash a guy whose supreme effort is unquestionable in 99% of the games that he plays.

That is a good point. But if you remember, originally... the thread was about a single game in the effort department. People here are keen on defending Manu to the death, so I simply responded to any questions directed at me about him. I called out Tony, nobody seemed to care. Yet, he's arguably the Spurs second best player.

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 07:46 PM

So your post is aimed entirely at those who are most unreasonable around here?

That part of the post is to cement the idea that Manu does not have what it takes to be a franchise player. It was directed at anyone that thinks that. If you deem them unreasonable, that's your choice.

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 07:48 PM

So wait, Carter gets a pass (and, actually, a bump in esteem) because there are some nights that he just doesn't care, but Manu should be ripped a new one because last night he cared but didn't give the balls out effort we're all so used to seeing?

I can't defend Vince Carter. The guy has everything needed to be one of the greatest, and just doesn't care half of the time. Rather, I should say... I can't defend his demeanor, but I will defend his skill.

FromWayDowntown

12-12-2007, 07:51 PM

That is a good point. But if you remember, originally... the thread was about a single game in the effort department. People here are keen on defending Manu to the death, so I simply responded to any questions directed at me about him. I called out Tony, nobody seemed to care. Yet, he's arguably the Spurs second best player.

And my point, all along, has been that with Manu in particular, it seems rather unreasonable to make such a stink about a single game effort when those single games are such anomalies for the guy. You devote a paragraph of your original post to a scathing attack on a guy whose effort is so frequently great that his anomalous games are difficult to remember.

I'll defend Manu against that attack because I think it's generally unfounded. The dude plays his tail off for the Spurs; that he has a bad effort game once a season or so hardly warrants a thread ripping him.

I doubt you've gotten much argument about Tony primarily because your assertions about Manu seem absolutely unwarranted.

FromWayDowntown

12-12-2007, 07:52 PM

That part of the post is to cement the idea that Manu does not have what it takes to be a franchise player. It was directed at anyone that thinks that. If you deem them unreasonable, that's your choice.

I don't know how one could deem Manu a franchise player and not be unreasonable. With the basketball knowledge that you boast about, I'd think you'd be able to discern that fact.

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 07:57 PM

And my point, all along, has been that with Manu in particular, it seems rather unreasonable to make such a stink about a single game effort when those single games are such anomalies for the guy. You devote a paragraph of your original post to a scathing attack on a guy whose effort is so frequently great that his anomalous games are difficult to remember.

My main argument was that he doesn't have what it takes to be a franchise guy, which you seem to agree with. You also agree that he didn't bring the effort needed last night, so I'm not sure what you're still arguing about.

I'll defend Manu against that attack because I think it's generally unfounded. The dude plays his tail off for the Spurs; that he has a bad effort game once a season or so hardly warrants a thread ripping him.

He plays hard most of the time, yes. I'm not questioning that. I'm saying he didn't bring it last game, and that isn't acceptable to me, especially with Tim down.

I doubt you've gotten much argument about Tony primarily because your assertions about Manu seem absolutely unwarranted.

Really? So he brought the effort necessary last night? He also is capable of being a franchise player? Despite that going against everything you've said, OK.

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 07:59 PM

I don't know how one could deem Manu a franchise player and not be unreasonable. With the basketball knowledge that you boast about, I'd think you'd be able to discern that fact.

No, I would just call those people biased or homers.

FromWayDowntown

12-12-2007, 08:00 PM

Really? So he brought the effort necessary last night? He also is capable of being a franchise player? Despite that going against everything you've said, OK.

Poor syntax on my part -- attacking him for lacking effort in one game is absolutely unwarranted.

Mister Sinister

12-12-2007, 08:01 PM

No, I would just call those people biased or homers.
Oh, wow. We lol'd. We lol'd HARD.

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 08:02 PM

Poor syntax on my part -- attacking him for lacking effort in one game is absolutely unwarranted.

That's your opinion.

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 08:04 PM

Oh, wow. We lol'd. We lol'd HARD.

Kind of like what I do at your signature, fucking dork. rofl

Mister Sinister

12-12-2007, 08:06 PM

Kind of like what I do at your signature, fucking dork. rofl
Yeah, dude, if I gave a shit about what people thought of my unending and omnipresent nerd-itude, I A) wouldn't register with a screen name of a character from a rather obscure anime series, B) I wouldn't occasionally talk in Venom-speak, and C) I wouldn't have a screenshot and a quote of the character I took my screen name from in my sig.

FromWayDowntown

12-12-2007, 08:10 PM

That's your opinion.

Which is equally as valid as yours.

E20

12-12-2007, 08:11 PM

TheAuthority = rascal.

Mister Sinister

12-12-2007, 08:12 PM

TheAuthority = rascal.
Totally. He's trying to be a rapscallion or a ne'er-do-well, but he's just a rascal. A rascally rascal, at that.

E20

12-12-2007, 08:14 PM

Totally. He's trying to be a rapscallion or a ne'er-do-well, but he's just a rascal. A rascally rascal, at that.
:lol

Actually, there is a poster by the name of rascal who dogs Manu and praises Vince Carter. And the Authority is using rascal-esque logic.

Mister Sinister

12-12-2007, 08:15 PM

:lol

Actually, there is a poster by the name of rascal who dogs Manu and praises Vince Carter. And the Authority is using rascal-esque logic.
:lmao Disregard that, I'm still a n00b.

TheAuthority

12-12-2007, 08:17 PM

I'm out for awhile, it doesn't look like there are any more questions anyway, but if there are... I'll answer them when I return to the board.

Mister Sinister

12-12-2007, 08:18 PM

I'm out for awhile, it doesn't look like there are any more questions anyway, but if there are... I'll answer them when I return to the board.
I have a question. Were you dropped on the head as a child? Often?

diego

12-12-2007, 08:29 PM

Cry Havoc

12-12-2007, 08:40 PM

Dallas is getting blown out the building and they have all players playing.

I think we'll be fine this season.

FirebatMIV

12-12-2007, 08:54 PM

Elaborate please. Try using something intelligent instead of using internet nerd slang, such as "so much fail".

Using the word "internet nerd" as an insult while partaking in a message board? The Irony is the silverlining.

Doctor J

12-12-2007, 10:25 PM

"Ripping Manu after two great games when he has his first bad game of the season is lame. If he has one bad game for every 20 good games, he's playing better than 98% of the NBA."

I do agree with this statement.

urunobili

12-12-2007, 11:11 PM

Guys... Tony and Manu were both disappointed that Timmy wasn't out there qwith them... and also... why to waste that many energy and avoid letting Tim think they're ok without him.. it was a classic "i miss you" act by both of them... i LOVE MY SPURS :clap

ChumpDumper

12-12-2007, 11:39 PM

Vince Carter
:lmao :lmao :lmao

greens

12-12-2007, 11:45 PM

TheAuthority, I didn't really want to post anything...since I'm tired of the BASHING threads of all the players...However, some thoughts...Manu had a left SHOOTING hand injury during all of last week, was "questionable" to play even(read some articles to confirm that)...but hounded Pop to let him play, cuz he knew the team needed him since Tim was not playing...He was STILL able to get 37pts back to back against DALLAS and UTAH, two very physical teams...YET, he has ONE bad game, and all this bashing...That's just sad...for you that is.

and another thing...Tony also had an injury all of last week with his ankles...(you can also confirm the articles...just google it...)

I think BOTH Manu and Tony would be seating out right now if Tim was playing...instead, they're doing their best out there...give them a break there...

Why can't people just respect the WHOLE team for a change and not bash anyone...I mean they are all on the same team, winning championships together, instead every day there is a thread bashing Tony or Manu or Bruce...etc...It's ridiculous...

Basketball is a TEAM sport...not one player vs the other...

I actually like that this is a real team, not "I'm better than you...I'm the superstar...etc..." These people play together...That is WHY they win. Individuals do not win championships...teams do!

Cry Havoc

12-13-2007, 12:17 AM

Kind of like what I do at your signature, fucking dork. rofl

You know, people who think you can buy "class" in a clearance sale at Wal-mart should really be a little less bold with some of the things they say. Degrading someone over the internet for something in their sig is absolute hypocrisy of the worst kind. He's a dork, that's why you're flaming him on an NBA message board. :lol

SequSpur

12-13-2007, 12:29 AM

You guys are gay.

TheAuthority

12-13-2007, 12:37 AM

you're comparing manu's shitty game last night (his only of the season) to wince carter who QUIT on his team (some franchise player), and ironically enough he almost got booed out of the arena last night for shooting like crap. at least manu gets to the line (and hits most)! and in that game he was intentionally fouled twice, if not 3 times (dont remember exactly), in the last minute. that makes his FTs 13 or 11.

You need to learn to read a bit better. I didn't compare Manu to Carter. That would not be fair to Manu. For one, Carter is better than he is. For another, one gives good effort 90% of the time, the other gives good effort 22% of the time. One shoulders all of the defenses attention, the other has a ton of help around him. It isn't really fair to compare the 2.

but what really makes me laugh is that you dog manu for not doing anything outside of scoring, then you're saying you'll take bonner over horry. horry > bonner because he's the 2nd best defensive big we have, not because he shoots at a nice clip from 3.

Cool, he plays defense. How old is Bonner? 25? What kind of position defense was Horry playing at 25? He may have been a better defender, but I'm willing to bet he was just as lost as Bonner is at times on D. Besides that, Bonner gives 110% every time out. And he rebounds. I'm satisfied with his defense as long as he's playing it as hard as he can. Horry is a bum. The guy slacks off the entire season, he even admits to doing so. Hey, Robert, you're not Shaquille O'Neal, bro. You sure as hell shouldn't have the privilege of only playing hard during the playoffs, because you've done nothing to earn it. Wow, you won some rings? How many of those teams were you even the 3rd best player on? 0? Oh...

but carry on using your basketball knowledge to boil the game down to shooting percentages, its not like those percentages are affected by whats happening on the court or anything...

That makes sense, I suppose. Just kidding, it doesn't at all.

TheAuthority

12-13-2007, 12:42 AM

You guys are gay.

That doesn't stop you from being a fan of Tony Parker.

TheAuthority

12-13-2007, 12:46 AM

TheAuthority, I didn't really want to post anything...since I'm tired of the BASHING threads of all the players...However, some thoughts...Manu had a left SHOOTING hand injury during all of last week, was "questionable" to play even(read some articles to confirm that)...but hounded Pop to let him play, cuz he knew the team needed him since Tim was not playing...He was STILL able to get 37pts back to back against DALLAS and UTAH, two very physical teams...YET, he has ONE bad game, and all this bashing...That's just sad...for you that is.

and another thing...Tony also had an injury all of last week with his ankles...(you can also confirm the articles...just google it...)

I think BOTH Manu and Tony would be seating out right now if Tim was playing...instead, they're doing their best out there...give them a break there...

Wow, people have bumps and bruises during an NBA season? You're kiiiidding me. Honestly, dude, who isn't hurt during an NBA season? Suck it up.

Why can't people just respect the WHOLE team for a change and not bash anyone...I mean they are all on the same team, winning championships together, instead every day there is a thread bashing Tony or Manu or Bruce...etc...It's ridiculous...

I'll call out anyone on the team, including Tim.

Basketball is a TEAM sport...not one player vs the other...

I actually like that this is a real team, not "I'm better than you...I'm the superstar...etc..." These people play together...That is WHY they win. Individuals do not win championships...teams do!

I agree with that. I also would like to say basketball, more than any other sport, can be affected most by one player. It's probably the most individualistic major sport there is.

Mister Sinister

12-13-2007, 12:48 AM

That doesn't stop you from being a fan of Tony Parker.
:lmao Someone just came out.

diego

12-13-2007, 05:56 AM

You need to learn to read a bit better. I didn't compare Manu to Carter. That would not be fair to Manu. For one, Carter is better than he is. For another, one gives good effort 90% of the time, the other gives good effort 22% of the time. One shoulders all of the defenses attention, the other has a ton of help around him. It isn't really fair to compare the 2.

this is my last response because you obviously live in a fantasy world (and avoid anything that might take you out of it).

carter gives good effort 90% of the time? you do know HE QUIT ON HIS TEAM???? that is NOT 90% of the time, and i'd like you to go ask a raptors fan what he thinks of vince carter. This is a guy who showed up late to a game 7 ecf to go get his university degree (its not like he had a million dollar job to honor). But, let bygones be bygones. that's in the past. lets talk about the night before last, the same 24 hour period as manu's shit game.

you say carter shoulder's all the defenses attention, and has no help. last i checked, the nets have one of the best "big 3´s " in the league: a certain HOF point guard

( Ranks 5th on the NBA all-time list for assists per game (9.2) behind Magic Johnson, John Stockton, Oscar Robertson and Isiah Thomas... Named All- NBA First Team five times (2003-04, 2001-02, 2000-01, 1999-00, 1998-99) and Second Team in 2002-03... Named First Team All-Defensive in 2005-06, 2001-02, 2000-01 and 1998-99 and Second Team in 2004-05, 2003-04, 2002- 03 and 1999-00... Played in the All-Star Game as a starter four times (2002, 2001, 2000, 1996) and a reserve in 1998, 2003 and 2004, AND 3RD IN ASSISTS SO FAR THIS SEASON )

the current 5th ppg player in the league, who leads carter by almost 5 ppg (the amazing super star franchise player, richard RJ jefferson).

and finally, the great carter, who has already missed 5 games this season, at a pace of 25% of the season.

the other night carter had 16 points on 17 shots in 41 minutes and got his ass booed out the stadium.

the nets (kidd + RJ + kmart) went to 2 finals. the nets (kidd + rj + carter) have made it to the 2nd round.

go continue your vince man love and stop pretending to be a spurs fan. spurs fans know what defense is.

TheAuthority

12-13-2007, 06:05 AM

this is my last response because you obviously live in a fantasy world (and avoid anything that might take you out of it).

carter gives good effort 90% of the time? you do know HE QUIT ON HIS TEAM???? that is NOT 90% of the time, and i'd like you to go ask a raptors fan what he thinks of vince carter. This is a guy who showed up late to a game 7 ecf to go get his university degree (its not like he had a million dollar job to honor). But, let bygones be bygones. that's in the past. lets talk about the night before last, the same 24 hour period as manu's shit game.

you say carter shoulder's all the defenses attention, and has no help. last i checked, the nets have one of the best "big 3´s " in the league: a certain HOF point guard

( Ranks 5th on the NBA all-time list for assists per game (9.2) behind Magic Johnson, John Stockton, Oscar Robertson and Isiah Thomas... Named All- NBA First Team five times (2003-04, 2001-02, 2000-01, 1999-00, 1998-99) and Second Team in 2002-03... Named First Team All-Defensive in 2005-06, 2001-02, 2000-01 and 1998-99 and Second Team in 2004-05, 2003-04, 2002- 03 and 1999-00... Played in the All-Star Game as a starter four times (2002, 2001, 2000, 1996) and a reserve in 1998, 2003 and 2004, AND 3RD IN ASSISTS SO FAR THIS SEASON )

the current 5th ppg player in the league, who leads carter by almost 5 ppg (the amazing super star franchise player, richard RJ jefferson).

and finally, the great carter, who has already missed 5 games this season, at a pace of 25% of the season.

the other night carter had 16 points on 17 shots in 41 minutes and got his ass booed out the stadium.

the nets (kidd + RJ + kmart) went to 2 finals. the nets (kidd + rj + carter) have made it to the 2nd round.

go continue your vince man love and stop pretending to be a spurs fan. spurs fans know what defense is.

Boy, this is a funny post. First of all, I'm saying Carter gives good effort 22% of the time, not Manu. Second, Jason Kidd is not the player he was 5 years ago. I watch him on a regular basis. The guy's lost a step... or 3. Yeah, yeah... averaging almost a triple double, say what you want, I know what I see. Jefferson has been playing decent, but he's as inconsistent as they come. They look great on paper as a "big 3", but it's hardly that. The offense consists of repeated isolations and no ball movement. Half of the time they sit around and watch Vince until he gives it to them for a wide open look they're not ready to take, or don't have the capability to make. Seeing as how both RJ and Kidd are pretty bad 3 point shooters.

edit: Jason Kidd, who you speak so highly of, missed a game with a migraine. Need I say more?

travis2

12-13-2007, 08:46 AM

TheAuthority = rascal.

nice call...

m33p0

12-13-2007, 09:27 AM

Yeah, Manu didn't impact that Utah game at all, despite his "horrible" shooting -- he shot 43% from the floor for the game and 50% on shots inside the arc; we really should expect more from the guy!!

How can anyone think that a guy impacts a game when he only collected 8 boards, rolled up 6 assists, grabbed 3 steals, blocked one shot, forced Utah to change its defense to account for him, contested numerous passes on the defensive end, and forced who knows how many turnovers?

manu is a scrub. we're doomed!

Waily! Waily! Waily!

ancestron

12-13-2007, 09:30 AM

wow, another parade of stupid!

m33p0

12-13-2007, 10:09 AM

... Cool, he plays defense. How old is Bonner? 25? What kind of position defense was Horry playing at 25? He may have been a better defender, but I'm willing to bet he was just as lost as Bonner is at times on D...

sorry to butt in. i just wanted to point out something.

i do remember a time in horry's early career when he was the focal point of that houston rockets team. not sure what his age was back then or what record the rockets had (i'm sure it was shitty). this happened because hakeem was lost for the season due to kidney problems and drexler already retired. the rockets were somewhere .500 and wasn't doing all that bad until horry himself got injured.

now, please continue.

:corn:

v2freak

12-13-2007, 10:17 AM

I definitely agree with you that Duncan's bad games don't impact the team as negatively as others'. I also used to think that there was a relationship between Duncan's bad games and Ginobili's bad games (NBA Finals 05 games 3, 4) but the two 37 point outbursts have proved me wrong.

m33p0

12-13-2007, 10:31 AM

last year there was around 4 or 5 games where manu, tim and tony had bad games all at the same freaking time. needless to say, spurs lost those games. i think this year they should learn to schedule their bad games so they won't be taking their night offs at the same time. :lol

ambchang

12-13-2007, 10:35 AM

If I remember correctly, he shot badly but still impacted the game, something Parker and Ginobili typically don't do when they aren't scoring.

You are trying to say Manu can't impact a game when he is not scoring? Are we talking about the same Manu? The man who goes all out in every possession, get his hands on passing lanes, make great passes, scramble for loose ball, etc .... that Manu.

ambchang

12-13-2007, 10:55 AM

Throw whatever fancy stats out you want. Fact of the matter is, he is there to contribute 3 point shooting and spread the floor for Duncan on offense. He converted at a 35% success rate. That is terrible. There's no way around it.

What day and age we live in, when 35% 3 pt shooting is considered terrible. The league average last year in the playoffs was around 35%. Not to mention that Horry threw in his low post defense, passing, and timely clutch shots.

Not going to complain. I'm going to say the referees gave him the majority of his points. Handed them to him, on a platter.

20 points and 17 from the referees.

So first, we are looking at one single game, then we should take out all the FTs? Ever occur to you that Manu got those FTs because he earned it by continuously driving to the basket?
So he scored 20 points (not including FTs) on 21 shots, that's an effective FG% of close to 50%, what do you want?

ambchang

12-13-2007, 11:00 AM

Way to over-exaggerate.
How did he over-exaggerate (btw, what is under-exaggerate then? How about right-in-the-middle-exaggerate?) when it was you who said Manu scored 20 on 21 shots, because we should not count any of the 17 points from the line? Are we somehow to assume that FTs that are deserved should not be counted?

ambchang

12-13-2007, 11:03 AM

I don't question he impacts the game in other areas. My assertion was that he doesn't impact the game the way a franchise player does. Manu is not used to be the guy they key in to stop night in and night out. Like a Vince Carter, Kobe Bryant, AI(6ers), etc. He's never proven that he can be "the man".

Vince Carter? A franchise player? Really?
Could you enlighten me of how Vince Carter has demonstrated that he is/was a franchise player night in and night out? Hell, start with his college days when he was "the man".

ambchang

12-13-2007, 11:12 AM

35% in my eyes is terrible. Sorry, there's no way to change my mind. I don't care what the league average is. Do they count half court 3's at the end of quarters? Probably. Do they count 3's hoisted up by big men to beat a shot clock every now and then? Probably.

I would rather have Matt Bonner.

So you would expect half court 3s and shot clock beating 3's to be significant enough to affect the 3 pt % to a large degree? Please tell me you didn't major in statistics, better yet, please tell me you don't know what statistics mean because you are a person who is trying to argue Manu stinks and overreacts based on one game in December.

You would rather have Matt Bonner over Horry because one shoots a higher % on 3s than the other. I am sure you would rather have Daniel Gibson than Tayshaun Prince.

ambchang

12-13-2007, 11:15 AM

ambchang

12-13-2007, 11:25 AM

ambchang

12-13-2007, 11:26 AM

I'll call out anyone on the team, including Tim.
I wish Tim could only give effort 22% of the time, by giving effort 90% of the time, he is getting in your doghouse.

TheAuthority

12-15-2007, 04:26 AM

What day and age we live in, when 35% 3 pt shooting is considered terrible. The league average last year in the playoffs was around 35%. Not to mention that Horry threw in his low post defense, passing, and timely clutch shots.

42% FG, 35% 3pt FG is terrible. Sorry, there just isn't any arguing it.

So first, we are looking at one single game, then we should take out all the FTs? Ever occur to you that Manu got those FTs because he earned it by continuously driving to the basket?
So he scored 20 points (not including FTs) on 21 shots, that's an effective FG% of close to 50%, what do you want?

He earned... I would say, about half. The others he flailed because of minimal contact, or he initiated that contact himself, and got to the line. Moral of the story: 20 free throws is ridiculous. No matter what.

Are we somehow to assume that FTs that are deserved should not be counted?

Deserved? Nobody deserves 20 free throws.

Vince Carter? A franchise player? Really?
Could you enlighten me of how Vince Carter has demonstrated that he is/was a franchise player night in and night out? Hell, start with his college days when he was "the man".

Let's see, taking the Raptors... who had absolutely nobody on their team, no business being in the position they were, 1 shot away from the NBA finals? Alvin Williams was clearly the man on that squad. My mistake. Silly me.

You really need to brush up on your basketball, bro. VC wasn't the man in college. Jamison was. Don't spew retarded bullshit around when you don't know what you're talking about.

You would rather have Matt Bonner over Horry because one shoots a higher % on 3s than the other. I am sure you would rather have Daniel Gibson than Tayshaun Prince.

Daniel Gibson and Prince play the same position? Nice example, moron. rofl And no, I want Bonner over Horry, because Horry is fucking done. He's been done for a good 2 years now.

Reallly? Weren't you arguing that 35% 3 pt shooting is terrible when that is league average, and how FTs shouldn't count?

Yes, 35% from 3 is terrible. And no, I was saying nobody should get 20 free throws, and pointing out he shot 9-21... and that he had half of his points come from the foul line.

So giving effort 22% of the time is > giving effort 90% of the time? I should tell this to my boss after I get back from vacation.

Who was arguing that? I certainly wasn't. Learn to read a little better.

Horry was arguable the 3rd best player on the Rockets the Lakers, when he was younger.
And at 25, Horry won two championships with the Rockets by being an integral part of the offense and defense.
Finally, Horry is 36, he earned the rest during the regular season when he knows what's going on.

Sorry, in the grand scheme of things, Horry has earned nothing, besides being the biggest coattail rider of all-time. What's his career scoring average? 9 points a game? ROFL

I wish Tim could only give effort 22% of the time, by giving effort 90% of the time, he is getting in your doghouse.

I still don't get where you came to the conclusion I believe 22% > 90%.

carina_gino20

12-15-2007, 05:35 AM

where is aaronstampler when you need him? :lol

and who's going to remember a regular season game against the Warriors in freaking December?

Thomas

12-15-2007, 05:52 AM

Barkley yelling: GINOWBELI GINOWBELI

timvp

12-15-2007, 06:24 AM

Yes, 35% from 3 is terrible.I've seen some bad takes in the history of SpursTalk but this might take the cake. Despite being repeatedly informed that the league average is less than 35%, this guy sticks with his take that 35% from three-point land is terrible. Amazing.

Here's some players who on their career shoot less than 35% on threes:

Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
Tracy McGrady
Dominique Wilkins
Allen Iverson

If 35% is terrible, these guys must be horrrrrrrrible three-point shooters.

Oh and Larry Bird had a playoff career three-point percentage of 32%. Another terrrrrrrrrrrible shooter.

TheAuthority

12-15-2007, 07:54 AM

I've seen some bad takes in the history of SpursTalk but this might take the cake. Despite being repeatedly informed that the league average is less than 35%, this guy sticks with his take that 35% from three-point land is terrible. Amazing.

Here's some players who on their career shoot less than 35% on threes:

Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
Tracy McGrady
Dominique Wilkins
Allen Iverson

If 35% is terrible, these guys must be horrrrrrrrible three-point shooters.

Oh and Larry Bird had a playoff career three-point percentage of 32%. Another terrrrrrrrrrrible shooter.

Maybe I should have clarified a bit better. 35% is terrible when the good majority of your looks are wide open. How many players on that list you just made up get wide open looks? Here, I'll answer it for you, 0.

Also, I definitely would classify everyone on that list as a sub-par to bad 3 point shooter, besides Larry Bird.

SouthernFried

12-15-2007, 11:18 AM

Maybe I should have clarified a bit better. 35% is terrible when the good majority of your looks are wide open. How many players on that list you just made up get wide open looks? Here, I'll answer it for you, 0..

Seriously dude...that has got to win some sorta award for being one of the stupidest things anyones said in a forum on the internet.

I mean really, is there a stat somewhere that says:

..."34.6% of a players shots were deemed 'wide open', while 23.2% of his shots were deemed "covered" shots. 52% of his shots were questionable as to being "wide open" or "covered" because the statiticians could not come to agreement on the fucking definition.

Some thought 2-3 feet was open...some thought it was covered. While a dissenting minority boycotted making the decision on the grounds the stat was completely fucking worthless and decided to measure distance the shooter is to the cheerleaders instead."

smeagol

12-15-2007, 12:21 PM

If I remember correctly, he shot badly but still impacted the game, something Parker and Ginobili typically don't do when they aren't scoring.
So Manu does not impact the game when he is not scoring?

You are either (i) blind, (ii) not a Spurs Fan, or (iii) stupid beyond hope.

ManuTim_best of Fwiendz

12-15-2007, 12:49 PM

:lol this thread is still going?

Seriously dude...that has got to win some sorta award for being one of the stupidest things anyones said in a forum on the internet.

Not only that. This thread was stupid to begin with, because he was originally refuting the first two game sample with a one game sample of Manu's performances as if it were absolute and definitive. :lol

It was a weak argument from the get go. Now it's just focused on his inability to look at the curb for decent 3-pt shooting percentage, over what constitutes 'terrible.'
Now the argument has shifted toward conditional measures, "Ok, 35 percent is Not 'technically' terrible, but only when a certain percentage of shots are NOT wide open. "

That's arbitrary subjectiveness. Also, Manu creates the 3 off his drive and step back, almost half the time he takes them from watching the games.

Kermit

12-15-2007, 05:21 PM

The Authority...on poop.

TheAuthority

12-16-2007, 04:36 AM

So Manu does not impact the game when he is not scoring?

You are either (i) blind, (ii) not a Spurs Fan, or (iii) stupid beyond hope.

Funny, 3 games in a row Manu hasn't contributed anything.

m33p0

12-16-2007, 04:49 AM

Funny, 3 games in a row Manu hasn't contributed anything.

yeah.. and 37 points in each of the 2 wins before that.

will you shut up already?

MaNuMaNiAc

12-16-2007, 05:04 AM

I stopped reading after this little piece of idiocy

If I remember correctly, he shot badly but still impacted the game, something Parker and Ginobili typically don't do when they aren't scoring.

TheAuthority

12-16-2007, 08:56 AM

Also, Manu creates the 3 off his drive and step back, almost half the time he takes them from watching the games.

Who was talking about Manu's 3 point percentage?

TheAuthority

12-16-2007, 08:57 AM

yeah.. and 37 points in each of the 2 wins before that.

will you shut up already?

I'll give him one of those games. The next game he shot 9-21. It's decent. Everyone really needs to stop acting like he was Michael Jordan during both of those games. He quite simply wasn't.

TheAuthority

12-16-2007, 08:59 AM

I stopped reading after this little piece of idiocy

Take the Manu blinders off and start bringing something relevant to the table. Like the rebuttal to Manu playing like absolute trash, 3 games in a row. Where has he impacted the game in these last 3? Besides, you know, handing the ball directly to the other team for easy buckets on their end.

m33p0

12-16-2007, 09:01 AM

I'll give him one of those games. The next game he shot 9-21. It's decent. Everyone really needs to stop acting like he was Michael Jordan during both of those games. He quite simply wasn't.

not me. noone in the league is acting like michael jordan, for me at least. but he is the closest thing to mj that we've got. i'll take him. especially over someone like mcgrady or carter.

TheAuthority

12-16-2007, 09:05 AM

not me. noone in the league is acting like michael jordan, for me at least. but he is the closest thing to mj that we've got. i'll take him. especially over someone like mcgrady or carter.

Well then, you're a fool. The only reason ANY GM takes Manu over McGrady or Carter is because they make way more money. Otherwise McGrady and Carter would destroy Manu. We've seen the previous 2 games where Manu shot what... 28%...? Bottom line: he can't carry a franchise like both of those 2 have done.

edit: Almost forgot to comment on the MJ thing. I hope you mean closest thing to MJ on the Spurs. If not, I'm going to have to go ahead and laugh at your basketball knowledge.

m33p0

12-16-2007, 09:10 AM

Well then, you're a fool. The only reason ANY GM takes Manu over McGrady or Carter is because they make way more money. Otherwise McGrady and Carter would destroy Manu. We've seen the previous 2 games where Manu shot what... 28%...? Bottom line: he can't carry a franchise like both of those 2 have done.

edit: Almost forgot to comment on the MJ thing. I hope you mean closest thing to MJ on the Spurs. If not, I'm going to have to go ahead and laugh at your basketball knowledge.

i did say we as in "we, the spurs". why would i take manu over mcgrady and carter? carter quits on his team. mcgrady has no idea how to lead his team to a win. manu has led argentina to a gold medal and his european team to a euroleague champion. i like a proven winner. but that's just me.

TheAuthority

12-16-2007, 09:16 AM

i did say we as in "we, the spurs". why would i take manu over mcgrady and carter? carter quits on his team. mcgrady has no idea how to lead his team to a win. manu has led argentina to a gold medal and his european team to a euroleague champion. i like a proven winner. but that's just me.

Carter has been known to quit on his team, but when has Manu faced a situation where he's been on a terrible team year after year? The answer is never. So it isn't really fair to compare that aspect. It isn't really fair to say Manu is the major reason those teams have won either. Argentina has some good players on their squad. We all know with the Spurs, Duncan is the be all and end all, as for the Euroleague, who really gives a shit? That's garbage basketball. I can't disagree that Manu is a better leader than McGrady, because Manu is the leader of that argentina squad, but I'm sure you also can agree that Manu has nowhere near the talent and physical gifts McGrady has.

I give Manu props on the gold, but let's be real... the US doesn't send their best players, or they would destroy everyone. The year they beat the USA, Stephon Marbury and Allen Iverson were featured players on the team. Need I say more?

m33p0

12-16-2007, 09:46 AM

Carter has been known to quit on his team, but when has Manu faced a situation where he's been on a terrible team year after year? The answer is never. So it isn't really fair to compare that aspect. It isn't really fair to say Manu is the major reason those teams have won either. Argentina has some good players on their squad. We all know with the Spurs, Duncan is the be all and end all, as for the Euroleague, who really gives a shit? That's garbage basketball. I can't disagree that Manu is a better leader than McGrady, because Manu is the leader of that argentina squad, but I'm sure you also can agree that Manu has nowhere near the talent and physical gifts McGrady has.

I give Manu props on the gold, but let's be real... the US doesn't send their best players, or they would destroy everyone. The year they beat the USA, Stephon Marbury and Allen Iverson were featured players on the team. Need I say more?

no argument here. but you have manu at a disadvantage over carter and mcgrady in that manu was never groomed to be a franchise player for the spurs.

talent-wise, carter has never been in a bad team either. in toronto, he had mcgrady with him. in new jersey, he has with jason kidd and richard jefferson. that nets team had more talent than the cavs that beat them last year.

mcgrady has had yao with him the past 4 years and yet they still have to break through the first round. every year that they've been together, experts figure them to be playing deep in the playoffs and yet they've been left scratchng their heads for every 1st round exit.

TheAuthority

12-16-2007, 10:07 AM

no argument here. but you have manu at a disadvantage over carter and mcgrady in that manu was never groomed to be a franchise player for the spurs.

talent-wise, carter has never been in a bad team either. in toronto, he had mcgrady with him. in new jersey, he has with jason kidd and richard jefferson. that nets team had more talent than the cavs that beat them last year.

mcgrady has had yao with him the past 4 years and yet they still have to break through the first round. every year that they've been together, experts figure them to be playing deep in the playoffs and yet they've been left scratchng their heads for every 1st round exit.

When McGrady played with Carter, he was like 21-years-old, still trying to figure out how to make it in the league. He was hardly the player he is now. He averaged 15 points playing with Carter. In Jersey, yes he has 2 good players playing with him, but they have Jason Collins, arguably the worst starter in the league, starting in their front court.

McGrady and Yao play in the West. That's a difficult road. Both are soft players mentally, which doesn't really help them.

Mister Sinister

12-16-2007, 10:55 AM

When'll it end? -_-;;

SpurOutofTownFan

12-16-2007, 12:14 PM

This thread has so much fail I can't pinpoint a silver lining.

Agree completely - I can't even start making a comment because I would have to write pages refuting every single piece of fail this thread has. Not the authority whatsoever.

SpurOutofTownFan

12-16-2007, 12:16 PM

:lol this thread is still going?

Not only that. This thread was stupid to begin with, because he was originally refuting the first two game sample with a one game sample of Manu's performances as if it were absolute and definitive. :lol

It was a weak argument from the get go. Now it's just focused on his inability to look at the curb for decent 3-pt shooting percentage, over what constitutes 'terrible.'
Now the argument has shifted toward conditional measures, "Ok, 35 percent is Not 'technically' terrible, but only when a certain percentage of shots are NOT wide open. "

That's arbitrary subjectiveness. Also, Manu creates the 3 off his drive and step back, almost half the time he takes them from watching the games.

Not only that, this is like those threads where we have Bonner or TP playing like Garbage and you see comments like "I knew he would play like garbage so he's no good for teh team, we should trade right away. The when they have a monster game, I knew he would bounce back or they dissapear altogether"

This thread DOES NOT deliver.

SpurOutofTownFan

12-16-2007, 12:19 PM

I'll give him one of those games. The next game he shot 9-21. It's decent. Everyone really needs to stop acting like he was Michael Jordan during both of those games. He quite simply wasn't.

Look at box scores from Kobe's, Tmacs games - they shoot 20, 30 times and score 50%, total 30 pts out of 30 attempts. If they would score in every single attempt, they would get 60 pts a game which doesnt happen too often. Yes, you watch a lot of BB.

SpurOutofTownFan

12-16-2007, 12:25 PM

I give Manu props on the gold, but let's be real... the US doesn't send their best players, or they would destroy everyone. The year they beat the USA, Stephon Marbury and Allen Iverson were featured players on the team. Need I say more?

This post smells fail. The US doesn't send their best players overseas because they would never make the same kind of money. Those US players who play overseas usually have failed in the US - didn't get picked up during drafts, etc. They come back once they are old or have achieved a great status in Europe to make even more money than they could ever make in Europe. Thanks for your time.

smeagol

12-16-2007, 02:08 PM

Well then, you're a fool. The only reason ANY GM takes Manu over McGrady or Carter is because they make way more money. Otherwise McGrady and Carter would destroy Manu. We've seen the previous 2 games where Manu shot what... 28%...? Bottom line: he can't carry a franchise like both of those 2 have done.

edit: Almost forgot to comment on the MJ thing. I hope you mean closest thing to MJ on the Spurs. If not, I'm going to have to go ahead and laugh at your basketball knowledge.

So Manu is only judged on his crappy games?

It is a waste of time even responding to you.

You would do very nicely in the Troll Forum. I'm beginning to think you are somebody else's troll.

Cherry

12-16-2007, 03:03 PM

m33p0

12-16-2007, 10:26 PM

http://www.greghornjudge.com/images/Large/4%20Magazine%20art/Olympic_team_USA_basketball.jpg

Mister Sinister

12-17-2007, 02:51 AM

That looks pretty badass. Save'd!

Ignignokt

12-17-2007, 03:38 AM

That looks pretty badass. Save'd!

Shagaya's mouth is watering over that acreage of hard mandingo warrior meat in that picture.

TheAuthority

12-17-2007, 06:34 AM

Not only that, this is like those threads where we have Bonner or TP playing like Garbage and you see comments like "I knew he would play like garbage so he's no good for teh team, we should trade right away. The when they have a monster game, I knew he would bounce back or they dissapear altogether"

This thread DOES NOT deliver.

Try reading it a bit better. While you're at it, try using different terminology instead of internet nerd slang such as "fail".

Look at box scores from Kobe's, Tmacs games - they shoot 20, 30 times and score 50%, total 30 pts out of 30 attempts. If they would score in every single attempt, they would get 60 pts a game which doesnt happen too often.

You fail to mention they are every defenses #1 option to stop, night in and night out. Andrew Bynum isn't exactly Tim Duncan.

Yes, you watch a lot of BB.

Yes, I do.

This post smells fail. The US doesn't send their best players overseas because they would never make the same kind of money. Those US players who play overseas usually have failed in the US - didn't get picked up during drafts, etc. They come back once they are old or have achieved a great status in Europe to make even more money than they could ever make in Europe. Thanks for your time.

Wow... make sense much? :lmao What are you... foreign?

TheAuthority

12-17-2007, 06:36 AM

So Manu is only judged on his crappy games?

We can judge him on crappy or great games, the bottom line is... he can't hold McGrady or Carter's jock.

TheAuthority

12-17-2007, 06:41 AM

You still don't get it, right? :rolleyes

Nobody in this world is better that US players.
But is not about the best players, is about the best Team

Yes, and the best TEAM would be the USA, if they chose to send all of their best players.

TheAuthority

12-17-2007, 06:42 AM

http://www.greghornjudge.com/images/Large/4%20Magazine%20art/Olympic_team_USA_basketball.jpg

Damn, that team was garbage.

smeagol

12-17-2007, 07:37 AM

We can judge him on crappy or great games, the bottom line is... he can't hold McGrady or Carter's jock.

:lol :lol

Sure he can't . . . :rolleyes

smeagol

12-17-2007, 07:37 AM

Damn, that team was garbage.

Stupider by the minute . . .

ambchang

12-17-2007, 12:12 PM

42% FG, 35% 3pt FG is terrible. Sorry, there just isn't any arguing it.

Why not, because you said so? Because 35 3pt FG is league average and Horry launches an unnaturally high # of FGs from 3s, which statistically pulls down his average?

He earned... I would say, about half. The others he flailed because of minimal contact, or he initiated that contact himself, and got to the line. Moral of the story: 20 free throws is ridiculous. No matter what.

Why is that? You seem to be making up random "rules" about what is acceptable is what is not. So even if by your admission half of them is waranted, why would you say he scored 20 points on 21 shots? Why not count 1/2 the FTs? Why none in the 1st place and 1/2 now? Why does everybody else has to run by what you deem as acceptable?

Deserved? Nobody deserves 20 free throws.

Again, why not? If he gets fouled on 10 shot attempts, then he deserved 20 FTs. Teams are known to purposedly rough up certain players, and 20 FTAs is not anything unrealistic. It happens quite a few times.

Let's see, taking the Raptors... who had absolutely nobody on their team, no business being in the position they were, 1 shot away from the NBA finals? Alvin Williams was clearly the man on that squad. My mistake. Silly me.

I would appreciate it if would actually research things about the player you jock, the Raptors were a shot away from the ECF, not the Finals. And that was in the EAST, where the 76ers made the finals that year lead by another one man team with a notably weaker supporting cast than the Raptors. Hey, and how convenient for you to ignore the contributions of Antonio Davis (all star, Charles Oakley (Who busted Carter's ass, noted by how the Raptors nosedived out of contention with Oakley traded), Mo Pete, Mark Jackson, etc ...
Besides, one man teams making the ECSF is not really that impressive, in that same year, Iverson made it to the finals and the Hornets led by Jamal Mashburn had the same success as the Raptors.

You really need to brush up on your basketball, bro. VC wasn't the man in college. Jamison was. Don't spew retarded bullshit around when you don't know what you're talking about.

Did I say Carter was the man? See those quotes, it meant that I said he wasn't even the man in COLLEGE. Get it now?
BTW, tell me again about Carter's near miss to the finals?

Daniel Gibson and Prince play the same position? Nice example, moron. rofl And no, I want Bonner over Horry, because Horry is fucking done. He's been done for a good 2 years now.

:lol when did I say they had to play the same position? YOU were the moron who compared the two players based on shooting 3pters, it wasn't me. Hey, if you want same position, fine, you want Gibson over Baron Davis?

Yes, 35% from 3 is terrible. And no, I was saying nobody should get 20 free throws, and pointing out he shot 9-21... and that he had half of his points come from the foul line.

What is your point? I don't care if he was shooting 9-21, the Spurs won, and he earned 20 FTs. What rule in the NBA said nobody should get 20 FTs?
And you continue to argue 35% from 3 is terrible, despite the fact that it's league average/

Who was arguing that? I certainly wasn't. Learn to read a little better.

YOU were arguing that. YOU said

You need to learn to read a bit better. I didn't compare Manu to Carter. That would not be fair to Manu. For one, Carter is better than he is. For another, one gives good effort 90% of the time, the other gives good effort 22% of the time. One shoulders all of the defenses attention, the other has a ton of help around him. It isn't really fair to compare the 2.

In justifying why Carter > Manu despite similar #s.

Sorry, in the grand scheme of things, Horry has earned nothing, besides being the biggest coattail rider of all-time. What's his career scoring average? 9 points a game? ROFL

What does PPG has to do with anything? Ben Wallace was a coattail rider? Bruce Bowen was one? Horry hit timely shots time after time. You think he was just being lucky? Anybody with any knowledge of basketball would have noticed that Horry:
1) Was a superb low post defender.
2) Smart player who positions himself at the right spots.
You saw him play in Houston? He killed the opposition with his combination of size and quickness. Then he reinvented himself with the Lakers by bulking up and played the PF position to complement Shaq. When he was with the Spurs, he paired up with Duncan and allowed Duncan to dominate the lowpost with Horry roaming the perimeter.

I still don't get where you came to the conclusion I believe 22% > 90%.

Then why is Carter better than Manu? One of your arguments was because Carter gave 22% effort vs. Manu giving 90%.

You need to learn to read a bit better. I didn't compare Manu to Carter. That would not be fair to Manu. For one, Carter is better than he is. For another, one gives good effort 90% of the time, the other gives good effort 22% of the time. One shoulders all of the defenses attention, the other has a ton of help around him. It isn't really fair to compare the 2.

Know what, we can't compare the two, because one plays halfassed, and the other goes fullout, and guess what? The halfassed guy is better.

ambchang

12-17-2007, 12:14 PM

Maybe I should have clarified a bit better. 35% is terrible when the good majority of your looks are wide open. How many players on that list you just made up get wide open looks? Here, I'll answer it for you, 0.

Also, I definitely would classify everyone on that list as a sub-par to bad 3 point shooter, besides Larry Bird.

No, you are not clarifying, you are backpaddling.

This is your direct response to my question "Weren't you arguing that 35% 3 pt shooting is terrible when that is league average?"

Yes, 35% from 3 is terrible.

ambchang

12-17-2007, 12:21 PM

Take the Manu blinders off and start bringing something relevant to the table. Like the rebuttal to Manu playing like absolute trash, 3 games in a row. Where has he impacted the game in these last 3? Besides, you know, handing the ball directly to the other team for easy buckets on their end.

Duncan was 8 and 5 in 20 mins last game, had 5 and 5 vs. the Lakers with 4 TO and 3 PF, then followed that game up with 24 points (but on a poor slightly decent 11-21 shooting, compared to 9-21 of Ginobili), but only 5 rebounds, and had 5 TOs vs. the Mavs. Duncan is absolutely USELESS.

MaNuMaNiAc

12-17-2007, 01:34 PM

Why are people STILL arguing with this idiot??

Demo Dick Marcinko

12-17-2007, 05:24 PM

Stupider by the minute . . .

sshhh he's the THE AUTHORITY of ignorance is bliss.

Demo Dick Marcinko

12-17-2007, 05:25 PM

Why are people STILL arguing with this idiot??

They're not arguing with him, their talking him down off that ledge.

SpurOutofTownFan

12-17-2007, 07:49 PM

Wow... make sense much? :lmao What are you... foreign?

As far as trying to reason with you, I see there's no point. You lack pure basketball knowledge and credible people in this forum have already put you in your place. That has to say something.

About your comment above, I detect some disguised xenophobia behind your words - I can tell you now that's not going to fly in this place. You can post your ignorance all you want and Kori in all her mercy will let you continue posting in this forum but if you choose to go down the path of racism, xenophobia, and being divisive, I would recommend you to back up and think twice.

You have just been stamped with the seal of failure.

TheAuthority

12-20-2007, 05:51 AM

:lol :lol

Sure he can't . . . :rolleyes

He's proving it game after game.

TheAuthority

12-20-2007, 06:48 AM

So even if by your admission half of them is waranted, why would you say he scored 20 points on 21 shots? Why not count 1/2 the FTs? Why none in the 1st place and 1/2 now? Why does everybody else has to run by what you deem as acceptable?

To point out that half of those points were handed to him at the stripe. How many times do I have to answer the same exact questions from you over and over again?

Again, why not? If he gets fouled on 10 shot attempts, then he deserved 20 FTs.

But he didn't.

I would appreciate it if would actually research things about the player you jock, the Raptors were a shot away from the ECF, not the Finals.

The bucks had no one on their team that could have checked Carter. That series would have been done quick, and would have had a variety of clips of Carter booming on Tim Thomas.

And that was in the EAST, where the 76ers made the finals that year lead by another one man team with a notably weaker supporting cast than the Raptors.

UM ROFL... noticably weaker supporting cast? Do you just talk out of your ass casually, and sort of try to play it off as something that is actually true? The Raptors starting line-up consisted of the following players:
C-Antonio Davis
PF-Charles Oakley
SF-Vince Carter
SG-Alvin Williams
PG-Chris Childs

Just looking at that line-up makes me laugh.

Hey, and how convenient for you to ignore the contributions of Antonio Davis (all star, Charles Oakley (Who busted Carter's ass, noted by how the Raptors nosedived out of contention with Oakley traded), Mo Pete, Mark Jackson, etc ...

Davis was decent. He made the All-Star team by default. I remember Jamal Magloire making it the same way. Oakley, terrible. Reminds me a lot of Horry now. Morris Peterson, played 13 minutes per game. Mark Jackson wasn't even on the team. etc ...

Besides, one man teams making the ECSF is not really that impressive, in that same year, Iverson made it to the finals and the Hornets led by Jamal Mashburn had the same success as the Raptors.

I'm not exactly sure why you're singling out the Hornets and trying to degrade them? They had a ton of talent on that team. And I'm sure you just started watching basketball, but I remember a time when Jamal Mashburn was a top 25 player.

Did I say Carter was the man? See those quotes, it meant that I said he wasn't even the man in COLLEGE. Get it now?

Very nice attempt. Unfortunately I'm going to expose you for the dumbass you are. Here is what you said.
"Hell, start with his college days when he was "the man"."

Now, if you were going to try to play it off like you were saying he wasn't even the man in college, you would have had to have worded it differently. You didn't. Therefore, I win.

:lol when did I say they had to play the same position? YOU were the moron who compared the two players based on shooting 3pters, it wasn't me. Hey, if you want same position, fine, you want Gibson over Baron Davis?

Wow your arguments are absolutely terrible. Nobody said they had to play the same position, it was supposed to be recognized as common sense. Considering that comment stemmed from me wanting Bonner over Horry. And now you're comparing Baron Davis to Daniel Gibson? Wow, you're spot on.

What is your point? I don't care if he was shooting 9-21, the Spurs won, and he earned 20 FTs.

If you considering flailing your arms around and acting earning them, then I suppose.

What rule in the NBA said nobody should get 20 FTs?

The one where Spurs fans everywhere were outraged when Dirk did it in the playoffs.

And you continue to argue 35% from 3 is terrible, despite the fact that it's league average/

And you continue to type on and on about it after I've given you an explanation for it 15 different times previously.

YOU were arguing that. YOU said

In justifying why Carter > Manu despite similar #s.

Manu and Vince Carter have similar numbers? What world are you living in? Carter's career numbers destroy Manu's.

What does PPG has to do with anything? Ben Wallace was a coattail rider? Bruce Bowen was one?

2 absolutely TERRIBLE examples. They're both all-nba first team defense all of the time. One has won like 4 DPOY. Are you going to argue Horry is even CLOSE to the defender either of them are? Has he ever even made an all-defense THIRD team? OK, I didn't think so. Accept defeat, move on.

Horry hit timely shots time after time. You think he was just being lucky?

Truthfully? Yes.

Anybody with any knowledge of basketball would have noticed that Horry:
1) Was a superb low post defender.
2) Smart player who positions himself at the right spots.

Never said he wasn't either of those things. Although superb is going too far.

You saw him play in Houston? He killed the opposition with his combination of size and quickness.

... HAHA.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. He killed them man! To the tune of a whopping 10 points per game! Wooooooo! Unstoppable! He was a regular LeBron James back in that day, boy!

Then why is Carter better than Manu? One of your arguments was because Carter gave 22% effort vs. Manu giving 90%.

Well, let's see... probably because, despite his lack of effort, his career scoring average is 24 points per game, as opposed to Manu's 14. He also puts up better numbers in almost every other area. This is silly to even argue. Carter is head and shoulders above him.

Know what, we can't compare the two, because one plays halfassed, and the other goes fullout, and guess what? The halfassed guy is better.

14PPG > 24PPG

TheAuthority

12-20-2007, 06:58 AM

As far as trying to reason with you, I see there's no point. You lack pure basketball knowledge and credible people in this forum have already put you in your place. That has to say something.

Put me in my place? Boy, have they ever. I had to take some time off from the site to tend to my emotional wounds. Just kidding, I've schooled them on every single point that I've made.

About your comment above, I detect some disguised xenophobia behind your words - I can tell you now that's not going to fly in this place. You can post your ignorance all you want and Kori in all her mercy will let you continue posting in this forum but if you choose to go down the path of racism, xenophobia, and being divisive, I would recommend you to back up and think twice.

Let me break it down for you. There's no disgusing going on. Yes, I am a racist. I am a filthy racist. Yes, I hate foreigners. Illegal immigrants fuck America's economy up. They have no right to be here. Getting banned from an obscure forum on the internet really isn't any sweat off my balls. This is just something I go to when I'm insanely bored. If I was banned and I cared about being banned, I'd just access the site via proxy and continue to post.

You have just been stamped with the seal of failure.

You have just been slapped with my dick on your forehead.

smeagol

12-20-2007, 07:12 AM

He's proving it game after game.
He is proving what . . .?

McGrady was part of a 20 pt losing streak?

VC is a pussy who is known to put little effort on purpose because he is pissed off with his team.

Manu has accomplished 10 times more than what those two have. With and without Tim.

Again, in case you missed it, no Manu = less rings for the Spurs. That is a fact, wether your slow mind can grasp it or not.

smeagol

12-20-2007, 07:14 AM

To point out that half of those points were handed to him at the stripe. How many times do I have to answer the same exact questions from you over and over again?

So he goes to the basket, is fouled, but the resulting points from th FTs should not count?

Ok . . .

But he didn't.

Says who? You . . . ?

Ok . . . I forgot, you are the authority :rolleyes

smeagol

12-20-2007, 07:17 AM

TA, quit making us believe you are a Spurs fan.

TheAuthority

12-20-2007, 07:35 AM

Again, in case you missed it, no Manu = less rings for the Spurs. That is a fact, wether your slow mind can grasp it or not.

So Duncan didn't win a ring without him?

TA, quit making us believe you are a Spurs fan.

I am a Spurs fan. Fans have the right to critique players harshly. Nobody should feel sorry for pro athletes. They make millions of dollars to play a game.

smeagol

12-20-2007, 09:44 AM

So Duncan didn't win a ring without him?

When did I say that?

No Duncan = 0 rings for the Spurs.

That being said,

No Manu = Spurs have only 2 rings (the first two).

I am a Spurs fan. Fans have the right to critique players harshly. Nobody should feel sorry for pro athletes. They make millions of dollars to play a game.

You are as much a Spurs fan as rascal is.

ambchang

12-20-2007, 11:12 AM

To point out that half of those points were handed to him at the stripe. How many times do I have to answer the same exact questions from you over and over again?

So he made 17 FTs, but you discounted all of them to point out about half of them were not deserved? How does that work? How many times can you answer the same exact questions incorrectly?

But he didn't.

According to you? Apparently, he did, he got 20 FTs

The bucks had no one on their team that could have checked Carter. That series would have been done quick, and would have had a variety of clips of Carter booming on Tim Thomas.

Oh viewer of a parallel universe, please reveal to me the secrets of other things that were meant to happen but never did!

UM ROFL... noticably weaker supporting cast? Do you just talk out of your ass casually, and sort of try to play it off as something that is actually true? The Raptors starting line-up consisted of the following players:
C-Antonio Davis
PF-Charles Oakley
SF-Vince Carter
SG-Alvin Williams
PG-Chris Childs

Just looking at that line-up makes me laugh.

Davis was decent. He made the All-Star team by default. I remember Jamal Magloire making it the same way. Oakley, terrible. Reminds me a lot of Horry now. Morris Peterson, played 13 minutes per game. Mark Jackson wasn't even on the team. etc ...

Antonio Davis was an all-star nonetheless. He was a good interior defender, fierce rebounder and decent interior scorer. Guess why he made the all-star team by “default”? Oh right, it was because the other East centers were even worse! Now guess what teams they had to go through to get to the ECSF? Oh, East teams!

Oakley was this year’s Horry? Were you even watching the 01 Raptors? I was, I watched lots and lots of Raptors game back then, and Oakley was integral to their success. He provided a fire under their ass, strong interior defense, mid-range shooting and great rebounding. Now look at the stats, he averaged 35.5 mpg, 9.5 rpg, and 9.6 ppg.

Alvin Williams was a steady floor general before he was hobbled. No he wasn’t an all-star by any stretch of imagination, but he was intelligent with the ball, ran the offense well and played decent defense.

And Chris Childs? What the hell are you talking about, he was NOT the starting PG on the team, he played 26 games with the Raptors that season, averaging only 21.2 mpg. Their lineup that year was Williams at PG, Carter, Mo Pete, Oakley and Davis.

I'm not exactly sure why you're singling out the Hornets and trying to degrade them? They had a ton of talent on that team. And I'm sure you just started watching basketball, but I remember a time when Jamal Mashburn was a top 25 player.

Anywhere where I said Mashburn was NOT a top 25 player? But guess what? There were 29 teams back then! So he was the best player on a middle-of-the-pack team, that would basically put him in the top 25 by definition. That team was not as talented as noted on paper. Wesley was an OK player, Baron Davis was not the Davis of today (crazy chucker, not that intelligent on the court, oh wait, the whole team were crazy chuckers back then). PJ Brown was basically the Oakley of Charlotte, etc ….

Very nice attempt. Unfortunately I'm going to expose you for the dumbass you are. Here is what you said.
"Hell, start with his college days when he was "the man"."

Now, if you were going to try to play it off like you were saying he wasn't even the man in college, you would have had to have worded it differently. You didn't. Therefore, I win.

Learn to understand the use of quotation marks to express sarcasm. Ever heard of Quote-unquotes? As in, “TheAuthority has quote-unquote arguments”.

Wow your arguments are absolutely terrible. Nobody said they had to play the same position, it was supposed to be recognized as common sense. Considering that comment stemmed from me wanting Bonner over Horry. And now you're comparing Baron Davis to Daniel Gibson? Wow, you're spot on.

Those were YOUR arguments, YOU came up with looking at 3pt shots as the sole evaluator of contribution, and ignored things such as ball movement and defense when comparing Horry to Bonner. Oh wait, you just failed to see the similarity in comparing Baron Davis to Daniel Gibson and comparing Horry to Bonner was to show how idiotic your original comparison was, nevermind.

If you considering flailing your arms around and acting earning them, then I suppose.

Videos please.

The one where Spurs fans everywhere were outraged when Dirk did it in the playoffs.

Perhaps that got you enraged.

And you continue to type on and on about it after I've given you an explanation for it 15 different times previously.

What explanation? Those add-on criteria? You specifically said shooting 35% on 3s were terrible, regardless of situations, then you start to tack on new criteria.

Manu and Vince Carter have similar numbers? What world are you living in? Carter's career numbers destroy Manu's.

Look at PER.

2 absolutely TERRIBLE examples. They're both all-nba first team defense all of the time. One has won like 4 DPOY. Are you going to argue Horry is even CLOSE to the defender either of them are? Has he ever even made an all-defense THIRD team? OK, I didn't think so. Accept defeat, move on.

Again, you came up with the criteria that Horry was a coatrider because he was a 9-point per gamer. YOU continue to come up with terrible examples of why Horry was not valuable to any of the title teams he was on, and I came up with obvious examples to dispute your claims.

If you were to argue and say that examples were terrible, learn to read your original arguments and reasons for refute.

Truthfully? Yes.

:lol, you really are dumber than I thought, and that is saying a lot. The court is 94 by 50, Horry just so happens to be at the correct spot multiple times and nail down clutch shot after clutch shot.

Never said he wasn't either of those things. Although superb is going too far.

... HAHA.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. He killed them man! To the tune of a whopping 10 points per game! Wooooooo! Unstoppable! He was a regular LeBron James back in that day, boy!

Again, simply looking at PPG as some kind of gauge, while ignoring facts that Horry was a matchup nightmare for the opposition. Put a small guy on him, and he can shoot over you, put a big guy on him, and he will drive right past. Ever wonder how he could put up 35 mpg on a championship team in the playoffs? Ever wonder why Phoenix would trade Barkley for Horry and Cassell? Horry destroyed Rodman in the 95 playoffs.

Well, let's see... probably because, despite his lack of effort, his career scoring average is 24 points per game, as opposed to Manu's 14. He also puts up better numbers in almost every other area. This is silly to even argue. Carter is head and shoulders above him.

14PPG > 24PPG

John Stockton has a career average of 13.1 ppg, Stephon Marbury is at 20.7 ppg.

Marbury > Stockton.

So is Steve Francis.

And both Francis and Marbury > Parker.