Atlanta’s Al Horford Suspended

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Atlanta’s Al Horford Suspended

Posted Dec 13 2007 5:50PMAtlanta's Al Horford Suspended (http://www.nba.com//horford_suspended_071213.html)

NEW YORK, December 13, 2007 – Atlanta Hawks forward Al Horford has been suspended one game without pay for committing a Flagrant Foul Penalty Two by striking Toronto’s T.J. Ford on the head, it was announced today by Stu Jackson, NBA Executive Vice President Basketball Operations.
The incident occurred with 1:32 remaining in the fourth quarter of the Hawks 100-88 loss to the Raptors on Tuesday night at Philips Arena. Horford will serve his suspension Friday against the Detroit Pistons.

That is bullshit, how was it any different than what Josh howard did to Ginobili on his dunk the other day? I guess people can keep doing this to Ginobili (and other players) until he gets decapitated before they will throw out any suspensions for it. Fuckin Ridiculous.

[Tippecanoe]

ehh, tough one. to me, the foul didnt look intentional at all

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

It wasn't intentional, and he repeatedly tried to explain what happened. And he even visited TJ in the hospital and spent some time with him.

Completely uncalled for suspension, IMO.

[balli]

Fuck that shit. Especially against Detroit. I don't know if this one was Stern or Stu Jackson's call, but fuck, I just don't get the NBA's decision making?

[timvp]

The NBA is sensitive about any contact above the shoulders. Kobe got suspended even though he wasn't trying to hit Manu in the face. Same situation here. Doesn't make sense but it's in the rulebooks.

[ploto]

A flagrant 2 means an automatic one-game suspension. The league will always uphold a flagrant 2 if contact was made to the head.


The NBA is sensitive about any contact above the shoulders. Kobe got suspended even though he wasn't trying to hit Manu in the face. Same situation here. Doesn't make sense but it's in the rulebooks.
Even Pop and Manu said that Kobe did not mean to hit Manu in the face but Spurs fans surely called for his suspension.

[JamStone]

A flagrant 2 carries an automatic ejection from that particular game. A flagrant 2 is not an automatic one game suspension. I recently was reviewing the flagrant foul rules in a different discussion thread. Suspensions for either a flagrant 1 or a flagrant 2 is still at the discretion of the commissioner.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_b.html?nav=ArticleList

"A flagrant foul-penalty (1) is unnecessary contact committed by a player against an opponent.

A flagrant foul-penalty (2) is unnecessary and excessive contact committed by a player against an opponent. It is an unsportsmanlike act and the offender is ejected immediately.

The offender will be subject to a fine not exceeding $35,000 and/or suspension by the Commissioner. "

[timvp]

A flagrant 2 means an automatic one-game suspension. The league will always uphold a flagrant 2 if contact was made to the head.Nope.


Even Pop and Manu said that Kobe did not mean to hit Manu in the face but Spurs fans surely called for his suspension.Most Spurs fans thought the suspension was bogus.

[Obstructed_View]

Dumbest. Suspension. Ever.

[kingsfan]

That is really dumb, he felt awful about it. In the post game interview he was almost in tears. He wanted to get the hell outta there + go to the hospital and visit TJ.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

This is pretty weak, but I accept the logic behind the decision. Even though the chances of mandatory suspension influencing un-intentional flagrants is like 0.15%

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Weak sauce. I mean everybody feels sorry for TJ Ford, but they're trying to punish somebody for what was a freak occurrence. Stu Jackson and co. just need to realize that these things happen and there is nothing they can do about it. The discipline in this league sucks.

[Pistons < Spurs]

Terrible decision.

[monosylab1k]

it's all politics. this story was huge, it was the lead story on ESPN, and it looked bad for the NBA. that's the ONLY reason Horford was suspended.

Meanwhile Carmelo grabs Vujacic by the throat and nothing happens, only because ESPN didn't feel the need to give a shit about that one.

[tlongII]

They suspended him because he's a rookie.

[ShoogarBear]

Bogus.

[JamStone]

I don't think it was a punitive suspension. It was more of a future preventative measure so that other players are extra wary and cautious in similar situations where they are trying to block a shot over the head of a guy in transition. I don't have a problem with the suspension because I think that's the purpose behind it. The league is generally pretty good at giving an appropriate suspension or not giving a suspension at all.

[ambchang]

I don't see how Kobe's elbow was twice as impactful as Harford's slap.
If you want to go with intentions, neither seemed intentional and suspensions in either would be stupid.
If you want to go with results, sending a guy to hospital is definitely not 1/2 as damaging as ..... nothing.

[RonMexico]

This was a terrible decision... glad to see Stu is back up to his old tricks. I guess this was an "unnatural move" like Kobe to Manu last year... honestly, I don't even think it was worthy of a flagrant 2 since it was clearly not intentional and the refs ruled based on the result (Ford hitting his head) instead of the actual play.

This is surprising especially with TJ making it back to Toronto the next day to sit on the bench without a brace or anything on his neck, I thought the announcement would be that they were downgrading the foul. Then again, Stu Jackson is an idiot.

[Pistons < Spurs]

Suspended? Really? The NBA had the gall to suspend Al Horford for his flagrant foul on T.J. Ford?

I get the fact it looked bad. I get the fact it was horrific. I get the fact T.J Ford spent the night in the hospital. I get the fact no one wants to see this kind of incident happen.

But does anyone out there think Horford intentionally tried to hurt Ford? He felt horrible about it after it happened and even went to the hospital to spend time with Ford in Atlanta. He explained the foul, too, to anyone who would listen after that game on Tuesday.

"When it happened with a minute and a half left, we were still down by eight [92-84]," Horford said. "He got the steal. I just tried to go and block the shot. When he went up, I went up too. He tried to use the rim and I thought he was going to stay on [one] side so I went up and tried to hit the ball and I hit his head.

"He just made a good move and fooled me."

That quote has been seen repeatedly. And, if you ask the Raptors, they also won't say it was intentional. Heck, even T.J. Ford understands it wasn't intentional.

"It wasn't a dirty play at all," Ford said. "I think I just kind of tricked him with the move and he got caught in a bad spot. He's a good kid. I told him I'm not holding anything against him."

During those hours in the hospital, where Horford talked to Ford, it was Ford picking up Horford.

"I know that Horford feels awful about it," Colangelo said. "He spent a couple of hours at the hospital with (T.J.) last night and, true to T.J.'s form, he was probably doing more of the consoling. I think the kid (Horford) was pretty shaken up about it. He felt awful. I don't think there was any intention to do harm."

So, with these multiple accounts of no intent of harm on the record, again, why did Al Horford receive a one-game suspension? Is it because of how bad it looked? Is it because of the fragility of Ford given his past issues with his neck and spine? Is it because this could have been much worse than it was?

Honestly though, that's going to be true going forward too. No matter what anyone says, basketball is a contact sport. Sure, contact is regulated by the calling of personal fouls, but players get fooled all the time. To be real clear here, this is no different than a player going for a steal on a dribble and accidentally hitting the player with the ball in the groin. It happens. Fouls are called. Basketball moves on. Sometimes players have to leave games with injuries.

This is the reality of the sport. When a player drives to the hoop he is going to do whatever he can to avoid the defender getting a hand on the ball and for many players the result can be putting themselves in awkward positions. Allen Iverson does it all the time and that's something most people respect, one of the big reasons why he is so successful.

What has happened here is Al Horford, a rookie still learning the tendencies of players in the NBA, is being penalized for getting fooled on defense. A one-game suspension for getting fooled? Come on now. Most coaches wouldn't even take a rookie out of the game for that – yes, some would for sure – let alone give him a one-game suspension.

Here is what the league defines a Flagrant 2, the kind assigned to Horford:

"A flagrant foul-penalty (2) is unnecessary and excessive contact committed by a player against an opponent. It is an unsportsmanlike act and the offender is ejected immediately.

"The offender will be subject to a fine not exceeding $35,000 and/or suspension by the Commissioner."

Is that what Horford did?

The league came down hard on Horford because of T.J. Ford's past. We know Ford's past and recognize the issues he plays with, but if something bad happens on an accident the other player involved shouldn't be held responsible.

Horford is being penalized not only for being fooled, but for Ford's injury history and neuron-fragility (yep, that's a word now). And that's not fair to Horford.


http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=6474

[ploto]

And I suppose Amare did not intend to go onto the court and get suspended either.

If you hit a guy in the head while he is in mid-air, you get a suspension no matter what your intentions are or how bad you feel afterwards. It is not because he's a rookie or TJ has a history. It would not matter who did it, he would get suspended for hitting any guy from behind in the face and pulling his head backwards when he is in the air and defensless regardless of whether it was an accident or what the outcome was.

Those are the rules that everyone understands when it comes to contact above the shoudlers. Ask Kevin Willis.

[m33p0]

there has to be a suspension. this is not about al horford or tj ford. this is about protecting the players from harm.

[ambchang]

And I suppose Amare did not intend to go onto the court and get suspended either.

If you hit a guy in the head while he is in mid-air, you get a suspension no matter what your intentions are or how bad you feel afterwards. It is not because he's a rookie or TJ has a history. It would not matter who did it, he would get suspended for hitting any guy from behind in the face and pulling his head backwards when he is in the air and defensless regardless of whether it was an accident or what the outcome was.

Those are the rules that everyone understands when it comes to contact above the shoudlers. Ask Kevin Willis.

So why wasn't Josh Howard even called for a foul on Manu last week?
Manu was in midair, Josh Howard hit him in the head when he was defenseless.

[ambchang]

there has to be a suspension. this is not about al horford or tj ford. this is about protecting the players from harm.
The part I don't get is, how can this protect the players from harm? Is the NBA telling the players to be extra extra careful and avoid all contact in breakaway situations or I will suspend you?
These situations are freak accidents and unavoidable, unless players make a conscious attempt NOT to challenge shots.
Can't wait to see the day when players go for uncontested layups after layups because defenders are scared shitless that they will be suspended for challenging shots.

[m33p0]

The part I don't get is, how can this protect the players from harm? Is the NBA telling the players to be extra extra careful and avoid all contact in breakaway situations or I will suspend you?
These situations are freak accidents and unavoidable, unless players make a conscious attempt NOT to challenge shots.
Can't wait to see the day when players go for uncontested layups after layups because defenders are scared shitless that they will be suspended for challenging shots.

the rule is simple: avoid the head.

you hit a player on the head while he's in the air, he's gonna get acquainted with the floor. hard.

[balli]

And I suppose Amare did not intend to go onto the court and get suspended either.

Well yes, he did. Standing up and walking is not an involuntary act. It requires thought process and muscle coordination from someone who knew exactly where the floor was and where to put his foot on it so as to move him forward onto the playing surface.



If you hit a guy in the head while he is in mid-air, you get a suspension no matter what your intentions are or how bad you feel afterwards. It is not because he's a rookie or TJ has a history. It would not matter who did it, he would get suspended for hitting any guy from behind in the face and pulling his head backwards when he is in the air and defensless regardless of whether it was an accident or what the outcome was.

As several people have pointed out to your dumb ass already (manu, vujacic) players get hit in the head all the time without their intention-minded assailants even being punished in the slightest. Not to even speak of a guy who obviously had no intention of even commiting a foul.



Those are the rules that everyone understands when it comes to contact above the shoudlers. Ask Kevin Willis.

Are you some sort of special idiot, or just the regular kind? Do you know how to read?

Those are not the rules that everybody understands, they are the rules that your dumb ass understands.

The rest of us understand, y'know, the actual rule from, y'know, the actual rule book that several people have already posted.


The offender will be subject to a fine not exceeding $35,000 and/or suspension by the Commissioner.

In case you really can't read, the "and/or" clause gives Stu Jackson powers to forgo or impose suspensions. It is not automatic.

Not to mention the aforementioned precedents set in other cases with head contact where there were no suspensions. Even when the contact was intentional, which in this case, wasn't.

What the fuck is your problem? You've been all over Horford from minute 1 of this thing. Nobody else (see the rest of us normal people) seem to get it? Fuck you ploto.

[balli]

the rule is simple: avoid the head.


Kay.. You go and find me the rule, from the rule book mind you, that says any player who touches another's head gets an automatic suspension. Go look it up. Find it. And post it.

If you're so sure it exists.

[samikeyp]

Weak suspension.

[Cry Havoc]

I don't think it was a punitive suspension. It was more of a future preventative measure so that other players are extra wary and cautious in similar situations where they are trying to block a shot over the head of a guy in transition. I don't have a problem with the suspension because I think that's the purpose behind it. The league is generally pretty good at giving an appropriate suspension or not giving a suspension at all.

I completely agree with this.


The suspension is basically just a warning to other players: Be careful about initiating hard contact.

I think it was unintentional, but at the same time, he hit TJ REALLY hard. The NBA has to be very pro-active about preventing their players from being carried off on a stretcher.

[balli]

I completely agree with this.


The suspension is basically just a warning to other players: Be careful about initiating hard contact.

I think it was unintentional, but at the same time, he hit TJ REALLY hard. The NBA has to be very pro-active about preventing their players from being carried off on a stretcher.

I can agree with this; that is in fact the reason he got suspended.

However, I'd contend that the message was already and strongly felt league-wide, without the suspension. All anyone needed to get as a warning about the perils of hard contact was a single viewing of the footage.

This argument is far better than that of the morons repeatedly claiming it was a mandatory suspension because of head contact, the flagrant 2, etc.

[m33p0]

Kay.. You go and find me the rule, from the rule book mind you, that says any player who touches another's head gets an automatic suspension. Go look it up. Find it. And post it.

If you're so sure it exists.

"Section IV—Fouls
g. A flagrant foul is unnecessary and/or excessive contact committed by a player against an opponent whether the ball is dead or alive."

[m33p0]

I don't think it was a punitive suspension. It was more of a future preventative measure so that other players are extra wary and cautious in similar situations where they are trying to block a shot over the head of a guy in transition. I don't have a problem with the suspension because I think that's the purpose behind it. The league is generally pretty good at giving an appropriate suspension or not giving a suspension at all.

that's what i've been saying. its not about who were involved or what situation it was in. it had to be done.

almost the same thing happened during the mavs-spurs game when ginobili went for that dunk over diop. howard whacked manu's face and would have went down hard if manu hadn't been able to reach the ring.

[ambchang]

the rule is simple: avoid the head.

you hit a player on the head while he's in the air, he's gonna get acquainted with the floor. hard.

Still does not explain why Josh Howard wasn't suspended, ejected, or even called for a foul for what he did to Manu last week when Manu was in the air.

I thought that play deserves a foul, not an ejection, flagrant or ejection despite the fact that the result could be dangerous because it was obvious Howard was going for the ball, which is the same as the Harford/Ford situation.

Both victims got hit in the head, and yet there is such a drastic difference in discipline. I would just say that the league is highy unpredictable and inconsistent with suspensions, ejections and discipline.

[balli]

"Section IV—Fouls
g. A flagrant foul is unnecessary and/or excessive contact committed by a player against an opponent whether the ball is dead or alive."

This isn't what I asked about. After you said he needed a suspension because;


The rule is simple: avoid the head

I asked where it said he had to be suspended for this and you come up with the definiton of a Flagrant? We all know what a flagrant foul is man. I want to know where it says he had to be suspended for it, as you claimed. Try again.

[ambchang]

"Section IV—Fouls
g. A flagrant foul is unnecessary and/or excessive contact committed by a player against an opponent whether the ball is dead or alive."

This rule neither addresses contact above shoulders nor an automatic suspension.

[m33p0]

This rule neither addresses contact above shoulders nor an automatic suspension.

you don't consider hitting someone on the head intentionally or otherwise, excessive? the league thinks so. however, i do concur that the flagrant 2 call was more an outcome of the severity of the fall and not the excessive contact itself.

still, it had to be done.

[balli]

still, it had to be done.


And you still support the suspension? GMAFB!

[m33p0]

And you still support the suspension? GMAFB!


you wanna know why? because i saw someone who drove to the basket and got hacked in mid-air, flipped over, head hitting the floor. that was last year. last month he finally got use of his legs. all because his defender didn't want to get beat.

it wasn't even an important game. it was only in one of the local leagues we had here.

this is not an indictment on hortford. he's a great kid. this is about when games becoming more important. especially during the playoffs when tempers are high.

if you can let things slide when things aren't as important, what makes you think you won't let it slide when things are important?

i'm done with you.

[balli]

Okay. Well be done with me. But I hate to break it to you, whatever the fuck terrible thing you saw happen in your local league has no and should have no bearing on the rulings of the National Basketball Association. Again, GMAFB!

[ancestron]

They should suspend Horford for more than one game. What he did was reckless and seriously out of control. He wasn't trying to make a play on the ball. It was a dangerous, desperate swat that hurt someone. I'm surprised the whole Toronto bench didn''t get up and kick his ass.

[bdubya]

$.02

-The ejection was enough; I don't see the need for the suspension. But the Hawks will be fine; the Pistons are already looking ahead to Boston, and by the time they remember they have a game tonight, it could be too late.

-The refs didn't call the Howard foul for the most obvious of reasons: they honestly thought it was another flop.

[ambchang]

you don't consider hitting someone on the head intentionally or otherwise, excessive? the league thinks so. however, i do concur that the flagrant 2 call was more an outcome of the severity of the fall and not the excessive contact itself.

still, it had to be done.

No I don't, I play ball and get hit above shoulders all the time unintentionally, I don't consider those to be excessive contact. It hurts, but it's not malicious or excessive.

And why is above the shoulder any more "excessive" that a punch in the nuts, pulling someone's leg in midair, undercutting, or stepping on someone's ankles while they jump? And yet those things happens all the time without consequences.

Finally, the rule you posted said nothing about suspension, it said flagrant foul and ejection.

[ambchang]

you wanna know why? because i saw someone who drove to the basket and got hacked in mid-air, flipped over, head hitting the floor. that was last year. last month he finally got use of his legs. all because his defender didn't want to get beat.

it wasn't even an important game. it was only in one of the local leagues we had here.

this is not an indictment on hortford. he's a great kid. this is about when games becoming more important. especially during the playoffs when tempers are high.

if you can let things slide when things aren't as important, what makes you think you won't let it slide when things are important?

i'm done with you.

You are saying that the league is trying to cut out contact? What are defenders supposed to do? Yield wide open layups after layups to avoid potentially hitting a defender? I just don't get how this suspension does ANYTHING to avoid freak accidents.

[BeerIsGood!]

It does seem like more of a PR suspension than one based on intent or actual conduct. It just looked bad even though Horford wasn't malicious.

[timvp]

Horford also was a victim of Ford being so light. Ford probably weighs in at about 155-160 pounds. If Horford hit 99% of the rest of the league with the same force, they probably keep going up and get a layup and a foul. Ford's slight build and proneness to stingers is why he landed so awkwardly.

[Fillmoe]

the league is soft as fuck..... we need to bring the 80s back.... when what Horford did wouldn't even be considered a foul

[balli]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6SSK9dHfasQ

Not a single suspension I recall. Why has David Stern destroyed parts of this league?

[Armando]

I don't think Horford made an intentional play for his head but I can see why the League suspended him. My problem is the League is not consistent. I have yet to hear a peep about Carmelo's grab on Vujacic. It seems if ESPN makes a deal out of it then the League reacts.

[samikeyp]

I don't think Horford made an intentional play for his head but I can see why the League suspended him. My problem is the League is not consistent. I have yet to hear a peep about Carmelo's grab on Vujacic. It seems if ESPN makes a deal out of it then the League reacts.

QFT

[Armando]

the league is soft as fuck..... we need to bring the 80s back.... when what Horford did wouldn't even be considered a foul


Somewhere Bill Laimbeer is saying you call that a foul.

[Armando]

QFT


What does QFT mean?

[samikeyp]

Quoted For Truth.

Basically, I agree with you.

[Armando]

Quoted For Truth.


Thanks