Brent Barry running the Point (whottt)

[LaMarcus Bryant]

Thoughts?

[SequSpur]

Jacque Vaughn sucks.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

I think Barry has done a decent job, decent enough to warrant more PT at the spot

[whottt]

You mean big small ball?

It's an option...I don't know how well it works with other PG's besides Derek Fisher on the court....you need the little guy to defend the little guys if nothing else...Fish doesn't have much of a driving game so having Barry on him isn't that much of mismatch...but if the guy can drive, I still want a PG on the court to defend to the other PG.


I like Barry running the offense...always have, and it's always a good thing for us it seems.

[SuperManu!!!]

Trade Vaughn, bring barry as first backup PG

[LaMarcus Bryant]

You mean big small ball?

It's an option...I don't know how well it works with other PG's besides Derek Fisher on the court....you need the little guy to defend the little guys if nothing else...Fish doesn't have much of a driving game so having Barry on him isn't that much of mismatch...but if the guy can drive, I still want a PG on the court to defend to the other PG.


I like Barry running the offense...always have, and it's always a good thing for us it seems.


I was mostly referring to the offensive side of the ball
Brent ran it very well IMO, we saw playmaking ability circa Seattle Sonics 2003

[whottt]

He always runs it well offensively yeah...I agree. Always. Matter of fact he does a better job of looking for his teamates and getting them good shots than any body else on the team IMO...I mean like making a shot out of nothing for someone.

He can do a lot offensively....

Tonight it was weird because there wasn't even another PG on the court...I don't know how much I like that arrangement if it's not DFish playing point...I'm surprised Pop went with that as long as he did...



I guess you could put Bruce on the point though.


Who knows maybe Pop will file this away for future use...


IF he is going to let Barry do this without even putting another PG on the court...that gives the Spurs the option of playing some big lineups...something else to think about.

[porscha]

berry runs the game pretty well tonight

[SouthernFried]

Great on offense...bad on defense.

Pretty much sums it up.

[timvp]

Like I said in the game blog, THIS is what it looks like when Barry runs the point. Perhaps whottt can now tell the difference.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

The difference of what?
I think he did a good job during his first stint tonight as PG, in fact, we were making a solid run. What fucked us was offensive rebounds, and it ended the mini run. But tonight, a 6-7 point run was huge. He was less effective in his second point guard run later in the game though.

[whottt]

Like I said in the game blog, THIS is what it looks like when Barry runs the point. Perhaps whottt can now tell the difference.



No...this is what it looks like when Barry runs the point without another PG on the court.



In any case...maybe after tonight you'll finally start to realize Barry's playmaking potential on the offensive end of the court, and catch up to what I have been saying since the day we signed him...


Sorry it took 4 years for you to "get it".


In any case...an apology 4 years late is still an aplogy...so I graciously accept.

[whottt]

I didn't smoke a cig the entire second half of that game and now I am in a foul fucking mood...

I bbiab.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

I think its extremely arguable that tonight Barry alone created offense out of situations most point guards wouldn't have seen any openings in.
Granted, it was only like 3-4 possessions, but in this game, that was all she wrote.

[iminlakerland]

I thought Barry played well running the point for you guys. He was picking our defense apart, and he was really frustrating to watch.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

I think he did very well, and Pop had no choice than to have him there.

Vaughn was shooting the ball instead of runing the point
Washigton not quite ready for prime time I guess - not sure what Pop thinks
Manu on foul trouble

[timvp]

The difference of what?Every time Barry has a good game, whottt says it's because Barry got to run point guard. Every time Barry has a bad game, whottt says it's because Pop didn't let Barry play point guard.

The truth is Barry hadn't played point guard all year ... until tonight. Sure, he brought up the ball a couple times but never ran the show. This is what it looks like when Barry actually gets to play point guard.

[whottt]

I think its extremely arguable that tonight Barry alone created offense out of situations most point guards wouldn't have seen any openings in.

I been saying this for years...

I don't get why everyone all of a sudden gets it...


When he creates things happen, when he initiates the offense he gets guys shots...he's the best passer on the team...

And most importantly, he plays better.

I been saying this stuff for years now...




Granted, it was only like 3-4 possessions, but in this game, that was all she wrote.


I think did it more than 3 or 4 posessions tonight...there's no doubt he did it more tonight than any other game of his Spurs career...plus there was no second PG on the court, which has only happened I think in the finals and only briefly then...

But anytime he's the guy creating this sort of thing happens...that's why I have been lobbying for it for years now.


He finds the open guy better than anyone on the team...


Funny how after he's finally acclimated to the Spot up Shooter role everyone figures out what else he can do...it was obvious to me years ago...and it was equally obvious to me that he wasn't that good as a spot up shooter in a half court offense.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

I say for the first schtick of tonight's point guard dabbling, he succeeded. By the time he ran the point again it was point-less, bc ginobili and finley were chunking up shots with 21 seconds left on the shot clock.

[timvp]

No...this is what it looks like when Barry runs the point without another PG on the court.



In any case...maybe after tonight you'll finally start to realize Barry's playmaking potential on the offensive end of the court, and catch up to what I have been saying since the day we signed him...


Sorry it took 4 years for you to "get it".


In any case...an apology 4 years late is still an aplogy...so I graciously accept.:lol

Link to me saying Barry wasn't a playmaker? Link to me saying Barry wasn't capable running the offense?

I'll be waiting for those links. After you can't find the links, you'll realize that my point all along was he hasn't played point guard, not that he can't play point guard.

[m33p0]

barry was first option in his early sonic days and he does have a hall of famer for a father.

[timvp]

I've always been for Barry being the backup point. Multiple times last year in the playoffs I called for him to play point over Vaughn. I just know Pop would never do it because Barry has no chance to guard the opposing point guard. Even Derek Fisher was blowing by him and Fisher is one of the slowest point guards in the league.

Offensively, Barry can run point guard no problem. Defensively, it'd be a trainwreck. That lack of defense was why after Seattle traded Gary Payton and Barry was handing out assists by the dozens, Seattle still went out and got a point guard. IIRC, Barry had 16 assists in his first game as the Sonics' starting point guard. That wasn't enough for Bob Weiss or whoever it was who was coaching the Sonics to make Barry a full-time point guard. If Weiss or Bob Hill or Paul Westhead or whoever the heck it was couldn't live with Barry's defense, Pop surely couldn't.

[whottt]

The funny thing is...the PG situation in the West is freaking brtual...3-4 years ago I thought he could pull off being substituted with no second PG on the court...

Now? Chris Paul? Deron Williams? All those guys in Memphis? Now Pop decides to do it? Freaking insane...


Not sure we'll see it again if DFish isn't on the floor...although you never know...once Pop starts jacking around with certain lineup formations he gets kind of infatuated with them...maybe this will be one of those.


Does anyone remember the triple towers? When Pop would put Perdue, Drob and Duncan on the court at times? Back in 99?


Anyway...


I originally liked the idea of using him at the point and us running a pretty damn big lineup out there...but that was back when I thought Horry could still pull minutes at SF and before the PG situation in the West got as choppy as it is now...I honestly think PG is the dominant position in the NBA now.

[whottt]

I've always been for Barry being the backup point. Multiple times last year in the playoffs I called for him to play point over Vaughn. I just know Pop would never do it because Barry has no chance to guard the opposing point guard. Even Derek Fisher was blowing by him and Fisher is one of the slowest point guards in the league.

Offensively, Barry can run point guard no problem. Defensively, it'd be a trainwreck. That lack of defense was why after Seattle traded Gary Payton and Barry was handing out assists by the dozens, Seattle still went out and got a point guard. IIRC, Barry had 16 assists in his first game as the Sonics' starting point guard. That wasn't enough for Bob Weiss or whoever it was who was coaching the Sonics to make Barry a full-time point guard. If Weiss or Bob Hill or Paul Westhead or whoever the heck it was couldn't live with Barry's defense, Pop surely couldn't.




Well see....you can use Parker as the 2 guard...that's what we were going to do if we signed Kidd. Hell you could do it with Beno...if the guys got a halfway decent shot you use Barry as the creator on offense and let them pick up the PG on D. I don't care who's matched up with who...it's about Barry's passing...he gets Duncan easy baskets. Plus if they do try to guard him with PG he can do all sorts of shit to the guy guarding him...


I think it might work with Darius...he seems to have a decent shot...but it won't work with freaking Vaughn.


In any case...welcome to the Barrywagon...better late than never :tu

[whottt]

I've always been for Barry being the backup point. Multiple times last year in the playoffs I called for him to play point over Vaughn. I just know Pop would never do it because Barry has no chance to guard the opposing point guard. Even Derek Fisher was blowing by him and Fisher is one of the slowest point guards in the league.

Offensively, Barry can run point guard no problem. Defensively, it'd be a trainwreck. That lack of defense was why after Seattle traded Gary Payton and Barry was handing out assists by the dozens, Seattle still went out and got a point guard. IIRC, Barry had 16 assists in his first game as the Sonics' starting point guard. That wasn't enough for Bob Weiss or whoever it was who was coaching the Sonics to make Barry a full-time point guard. If Weiss or Bob Hill or Paul Westhead or whoever the heck it was couldn't live with Barry's defense, Pop surely couldn't.



Bob Weiss sucks....


The difference is...the Spurs being a defensive team can cover that weakness better than the Sonics could...

And they played the crap out of Barry at PG....even Payton said he could run the point great.

[timvp]

In any case...welcome to the Barrywagon...better late than never :tuStill waiting for those links . . .

[whottt]

Dude for 4 years you've been saying Barry playing like this is entirely up to him...and I've been saying it's what Pop lets him do....when Pop doesn't let him do it, you say Barry sucked...when Pop does let him do it, you say he played well.

I've been saying since day 1 when Pop let's him run the offense he plays better...that's his game. He's not a true shooting guard....he's a combo guard, but really he's a point guard.

You guys have been the ones trashing him for not being a spot up shooter when he never was one...now he finally is one and everyone saying...oh shit, this guy can do shit when he actually initiates the offense.

Welcome to my world.

Link that.


It's about Pop and control....


Barry didn't come here to suck, nor was he afraid...if he was afraid of big games, he wouldn't come to the freaking Spurs...and that's what you guys have been claiming. I told you it was bogus.


Pop had a lot to do with it. He finally started playing like Pop wanted, Pop won his control battle(even thought it was never about control for Barry, it was about changing his game) and now Pop is saying...damn, you know he's actually pretty good at initiating the offense.

[polandprzem]

Does anyone remember the triple towers? When Pop would put Perdue, Drob and Duncan on the court at times? Back in 99?

Perdue siad it was his idea and then ... in the playoffs he bearly played any minutes :lol

As for Barry - he was running the poing in the past.

I do not get it where is this missunderstanding.

Is he playing a PG or is he just a guy who brings the ball up and then in the half-court offense he changing into a combo combo SG combo

[whottt]

THe misunderstanding is because timvp is a fucking stathead....


If Barry's not bringing the ball up or there is another PG on the court, timvp doesn't consider that running the point...and while 82 games might agree with him...a lot of people don't have that strict of a definition...


Using timvp's catholic school definition of playing the point...then David Robinson wasn't a point forward in 94...and he damn sure was that...even though he never brought the ball up and there was almost always some kind of PG on the floor with him.

[whottt]

Next thing you know you guys will finally realize I never lost that bet to chump about Barry's minutes...since Devin Brown got injured :smokin

[The Truth #6]

Barry could run the point if Bowen was guarding the other team's point guard. That might leave other defensive liabilities, but with certain teams, this could be a viable situation.

Vaughn just plays it safe, which is great when he's backing up Tony but when we need to be aggressive on offense to overcome a deficit, I don't think Vaughn is typically the answer.

Darius could be the answer in another year. The energy is there, but he might have the worst handle of any point guard in the league. He dribbles way too high and had problems bringing the ball up against the press. Put another way, his handle might even be worse than Beno circa 2005 Finals. Nonetheless, since we pulled him up from the D league we need to play him a little bit to get the most out of that move.

[timvp]

Dude for 4 years you've been saying Barry playing like this is entirely up to himLink to where I criticized Barry for not being a playmaker? I'm sure that link is where those other links are. :rollin


...and I've been saying it's what Pop lets him do....when Pop doesn't let him do it, you say Barry sucked...when Pop does let him do it, you say he played well. I've never criticized Barry for his playmaking. Unless, of course, you can produce any of these links I've asked for.


I've been saying since day 1 when Pop let's him run the offense he plays better...that's his game. He's not a true shooting guard....he's a combo guard, but really he's a point guard. He's been playing well this year without playing point guard. This was the first time he played point all season outside of a couple possessions in the preseason.

Barry doesn't depend on playing point to be a good player. You just owned yourself on your own take.


Welcome to my world.

Link that.

Whottt's World. (http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/madrun.gif)


It's about Pop and control....Cue the violins. When Barry doesn't play well it's because Pop's mean to him.

:violin


Pop had a lot to do with it. He finally started playing like Pop wanted, Pop won his control battle(even thought it was never about control for Barry, it was about changing his game) and now Pop is saying...damn, my starting point guard is injured, my backup point guard can't hit a shot and I don't trust my third string point guard because he's just off the boat from the D-League.Fixed.


THe misunderstanding is because timvp is a fucking stathead....

If Barry's not bringing the ball up or there is another PG on the court, timvp doesn't consider that running the pointRawfull.

I'm a stathead because Barry hasn't played point guard this year and I call you out on it? Now that he actually did play point guard, you are still trying to call scoreboard on things I've never argued with you about. Unless, of course, you could produce any of those half dozen links I've asked for.

It's also pretty funny that now Barry doesn't even need to bring the ball up the court to be considered the point guard in your eyes. No one sees when Barry is playing point except for whottt, of course. whottt even knows when Barry plays point guard in games he doesn't even watch. Props on that talent :tu


Next thing you know you guys will finally realize I never lost that bet to chump about Barry's minutes...since Devin Brown got injured I don't even remember that bet. You've lost so many bets during your SpursTalk career that it's hard to keep track. Have you ever won a bet on SpursTalk? Seriously. I've had to change your signature and avatar more times than I can count due to you losing bets.

Bottomline is Barry is a good offensive point guard. I've never said he wasn't. He simply can't defend well enough to play point guard full time. That was true when he was with the Clippers and the team needed a point guard. That was true when he was with the Sonics and Payton got traded. And that's true now. I've actually lobbied for Barry to play as the backup point, but I can't really blame Pop for not doing it since no coach has ever played Barry full-time at point guard.

But, of course, it'd big bad Pop being mean to little, helpless Brent Barry.

:violin



*cue whottt posting an eight post reply*

[polandprzem]

Okay kids ... go to sleep!

[SouthernFried]

Barry is a good offensive playmaker. Use him like we do Manu, when Parker will give the ball to Manu to make a play.

Bench Finley, and start Barry.

Everyone's happy.

Am I good or what?

[ploto]

Brent Barry at PG- who'd have thunk it?

[MoSpur]

I think Barry playing point guard is good at times. It just depends on the matchup.

[ancestron]

Brent Barry is great at PG. Much better than Jacque Vaughn. My personal Jacque Vaughn approval rating is plummeting fast.
I think it's interesting that Pop usually has Manu run the point during really important situations, though.

[timvp]

Brent Barry at PG- who'd have thunk it?Coaches of Barry have all thunk it, but no coach has ever given him the full-time keys to play exclusively at point guard. Not even in college or high school.

The lack of dependability on defense has always ended that discussion.

[polandprzem]

As far as I know you always can switch the guy you are guarding

you thunk?

[timvp]

As far as I know you always can switch the guy you are guarding

you thunk?You can but the offensive point guard still has to be the first line of defense in transition defense. Getting back on transition defense is a weak point for Barry. Other teams would just run back on the Spurs to take advantage of the mismatches and worse transition D.

[polandprzem]

You can but the offensive point guard still has to be the first line of defense in transition defense. Getting back on transition defense is a weak point for Barry. Other teams would just run back on the Spurs to take advantage of the mismatches and worse transition D.

Could not be the second guard?

All in all it all depends how you coach the team and what's your plan on the game. You play different opponents. And the Suns are better transition team then Utah for excample.
Although almost every team like to push the ball up the court these days, there are always roles for players in a team.