Game Thoughts: Spurs @ Lakers - Dec. 13

[timvp]

Overall, I was actually really happy with the way the Spurs performed in this game. In fact, I’m happier about this game than a lot of the wins the Spurs had this season. The Spurs were minus Tim Duncan and Tony Parker, got a horrible performance from Manu Ginobili and still stayed in it the whole way. You can’t be upset about that.

I also liked how the Spurs didn’t back down. The Lakers decided to get physical and the Spurs were willing to up their level of physicality. There was no backing down from the Spurs tonight. That’s great to see when you're out on the road and the other team has much more talent than you.

The Lakers can’t really take many positives out of this game. Their bench saved them. Without quality efforts from players like Vladimir Radmanovic and Ronny Turiaf, the Spurs could have easily won this game. For the first time in a long time the Lakers actually have a quality bench, which allows Phil Jackson to better use some of the coaching tricks he’s picked up throughout the years.

-Manu Ginobili was simply horrible or terrible or whatever other synonym you can think of that means really, really bad. It seemed as if every time he caught the ball, he thought he had to be the hero. And while sometimes he can be that hero, it wasn’t happening tonight when he had no energy, no explosion in his legs and a team focused to stop him. I would blame it on fatigue but a lot of it was just uncharacteristically dumb plays. For the game, Ginobili finished with 14 points on 5-for-17 shooting and seven turnovers. With Duncan sitting, Ginobili obviously missed having at least Tony Parker on his side because even if Parker isn’t playing well, he absorbs a lot of the defensive pressure from the opponents. Without Parker, Ginobili became the focal point and the Lakers were able to eat him up. It’s no mistake that Ginobili finished with a team worst plus/minus of -12, which was double as bad as anyone else on the team.

-If Bruce Bowen got to play against the Lakers every game, he might be in the league leaders in scoring. Earlier this year, Bowen had 23 against the Lakers. In this game, he went for 22 points on 8-for-14 shooting from the field. More impressively, he guarded Kobe Bryant amazingly well, especially considering Bowen literally had no shotblocker behind him at any point. For all those league pundits that say Bowen is only a good defender because he has Duncan behind him, this is a classic example of why that’s untrue.

-Fabricio Oberto had yet another good game. In a shade over 37 minutes, Oberto scored nine points and pulled down a career-high 16 rebounds. He also chipped in with three assists, one steal and one block. I also thought his defense on Andrew Bynum was rather solid and he was protecting the rim better than usual. Oberto gave it absolutely everything he had, which is all you can ask.

-Jacque Vaughn started and showed why he’s a bench player. He hit only 1-of-7 shots from the field and didn’t handle the defensive pressure very well. I loved his energy and toughness, but there’s more to basketball than energy and toughness. Overall though, Vaughn didn’t lose the game. He played his role well enough for the Spurs to win.

-Coming off the best game of his life, Matt Bonner came crashing back down to earth. In 16 minutes, Bonner went scoreless and only grabbed three rebounds. The Lakers did a good job of closing out on him, but Bonner was hesitating much more than he usually does. Bonner could have really made a case to for himself to earn consistent playing time when Duncan returns if he would have played well. Instead, Bonner laid an egg.

-Brent Barry got some rare minutes at point guard and performed rather nicely. He finished with 17 points, four rebounds and four assists while hitting 6-of-11 shots from the field. His defense suffered at points but he proved to be a capable option when it comes to running the show. Pop is never going to let him play extended minutes at point guard due to his defensive deficiencies, but for a few minutes here and there Barry can handle it. If nothing else, this game was valuable since it let Barry test the waters at point guard for the first time in a long time.

-Robert Horry is still out of shape but I thought he played very well, all things considered. He finished with six points, four rebounds, four assists, three blocked shots and two steals. That’s a vintage Horry line from his heyday. Since Horry has returned to the Spurs, I’ve been very impressed by his focus. He usually loafs through the regular season, but he’s playing with a purpose.

-Michael Finley is another Spur who went down swinging. He had 11 points, three rebounds and four assists and played physically on the defensive end of the court. He shot poorly (4-for-13) but he was at least taking good shots for the most part. He did a good job on Lamar Odom when Odom was giving the Spurs trouble. On the night, Finley led the Spurs in plus/minus at +6.

-Darius Washington stepped off the plane and played decently enough. He almost had a highlight reel dunk over a couple Lakers where he showed athleticism I didn’t know he had. He’s still early in his development but he continues to be relatively impressive.

-Ime Udoka came in and had a few possessions against Bryant. Bowen got in foul trouble early and Pop went with Udoka for his defense. Although Bryant scored a couple baskets on him, Udoka’s defense was fine. Obviously, he’s not going to play Bowen level defense but he’s proving himself to be the second best one-on-one perimeter defender on the team already.

-Francisco Elson came off the bench, blew some defensive assignments and found himself back on the bench. He actually had a nice move on the low block but bad defense and no rebounds in six minutes gets you some added pine time.

-On one hand, I want to give Pop props for getting the players ready to play and giving this good effort. However, I disagreed with a lot of his decisions. First of all, without Duncan and Parker in the lineup, I think you have to get the most offense as possible in the starting lineup. Going with Vaughn to start with was just asking for the offense to become stagnant. I would have rather seen Pop go with Barry, Ginobili or even Washington at point guard to start the game. And as tough of a decision as it would have been, I would have liked to have seen Pop keep Ginobili on the bench when the Spurs were rolling without him and Ginobili was so obviously out of rhythm. A lot of times during the game, the Spurs were best without Ginobili on the court. Keeping Ginobili on the bench while letting him get an extended rest for a late push made more sense to me than playing him 35 minutes. Overall though, I was more than pleased with the effort and it’s games like these that a team needs to build. You don’t improve much when you blowout a bad team by 30 points. However, you can improve when you are basically without your three best players in a hostile environment with your backs against the wall. Nice showing and should help down the line when the Spurs again face adversity.

[J.T.]

These last two games were definitely a ploy to get D'Antoni to coach the West at the ASG.

[E20]

-Darius Washington stepped off the plane and played decently enough. He almost had a highlight reel dunk over a couple Lakers where he showed athleticism I didn’t know he had. He’s still early in his development but he continues to be relatively impressive.
The near slam he had on the Lakers made me jump out of my seat. Pop looked really supportive towards DW, most I've ever seen him towards anybody. I still think he should have started, we needed points tonight, not defense and JV went for 1-100. D-Wash could have and had more to offer.

[ChumpDumper]

Darius Washington stepped off the plane and played decently enough. He almost had a highlight reel dunk over a couple Lakers where he showed athleticism I didn’t know he had.He makes one or two of those dunks every Toro game. Skies for boards too.

[E20]

He makes one or two of those dunks every Toro game. Skies for boards too.
Dump, how many D-League games do you attend? Is taht a side job or something?

[ChumpDumper]

I have season tickets to the Toros and occasionally watch their road games if the scheduling is right.

[Holt's Cat]

The near slam he had on the Lakers made me jump out of my seat. Pop looked really supportive towards DW, most I've ever seen him towards anybody. I still think he should have started, we needed points tonight, not defense and JV went for 1-100. D-Wash could have and had more to offer.


Pop likes backup points who actually care.

[THE SIXTH MAN]

Man I really liked what I saw from D Wash. That fearlessness is a really good thing to see in a young pg. :tu

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

Jacque Vaughn started and showed why he’s a bench player. He hit only 1-of-7 shots from the field and didn’t handle the defensive pressure very well. I loved his energy and toughness, but there’s more to basketball than energy and toughness. I thought Jacque Vaughn was annoying the whole game and D Wash should have started in his place. He's an offensive liability and isn't doing a good job at keeping the ball moving.







Manu Ginobili was simply horrible or terrible or whatever other synonym you can think of that means really, really bad. It seemed as if every time he caught the ball, he thought he had to be the hero. And while sometimes he can be that hero, it wasn’t happening tonight when he had no energy, no explosion in his legs and a team focused to stop him. I would blame it on fatigue but a lot of it was just uncharacteristically dumb plays.

Manu probably suffers from being his own worst enemy. He sometimes look like he's battling within himself, to either be an energy guy, a facilitator, or offensive quarterback. He's been like a malfunctioning robot these last two games...but oh well. I don't think he was tired, and last week, he was a lot more focused and calm, knew when to pass, knew when to attack, and the three guys draped all over him didn't affect him. He shouldn't be fatigued though at the beginning of the game. He could never be a franchise player. He's got too many issues :spin



If nothing else, this game was valuable since it let Barry test the waters at point guard for the first time in a long time. Barry was awesome leading the team as the point guard. He created for his teammates. I wish he was 4 years younger.

[E20]

Pop likes backup points who actually care.
Wash was picking up his man at full court!!! I saw intensity from Wash tonight on the defensive and offensive end. Plus, he couldn't have played any worse than Vaughn. The rook looks like one hungry mofo and he gots the talent. :hungry: :hungry:

[BonnerDynasty]

Vaughn has made some really nice J's the last couple games. Also he's driven to the basket and gotten the foul when the offense was stagnant. He's also got aggressive D.

I prefer to watch Washington because he is young, seems to have a pretty solid build, is the underdog noob battling for a spot, is more exciting to watch, and pushes the ball very well.

[whottt]

Yeah I like DW...I hope he's a Spur for a long time...you can see what he's going to be one day...and that's a beast.



RE: Ime Udoka

Ime Udoka is never going to be the perimeter defender Bruce Bowen is...I realized that for certain tonight...he's a lot more like Artest than he is like Bruce...


But he's a way better post defender than Bruce, way better interior defender...anyone that tries to post this dude up is going to get freaking owned...strong dude....I've watched him make Kobe and Baron Davis look like little kids on the school ground when they tried inside stuff on him and he was in position to defend it...

This guy is going to help against LeBron and long SF's more than we realized when he finally gets the chance to show it IMO.

But he doesn't have Bruce's feet, lateral movement, or moving backwards...so we can forget about him ever completely replacing Bruce.

I don't see us sticking him on many PG's either.

But I will say this...he's the guy that needs to be our PF in our small ball line up IMO...not Finley, at least defensively.

[polandprzem]

another happy loss ... :rolleyes

[melo061]

I watched the Kobe/bowen match up and to be honest, Bowen did not impress me. Most of Kobe's shots were shots he generally takes and makes. He just missed a lot of looks. Kobe got by him to the hole quite a few times to.

I remember back in the day when Bowen used to force Kobe to take unbalanced Jumpers. Not the case anymore.

Kobe isn't going to miss those shots in a series.

[whottt]

I watched the Kobe/bowen match up and to be honest, Bowen did not impress me. Most of Kobe's shots were shots he generally takes and makes. He just missed a lot of looks. Kobe got by him to the hole quite a few times to.

I remember back in the day when Bowen used to force Kobe to take unbalanced Jumpers. Not the case anymore.

Kobe isn't going to miss those shots in a series.



Keep judging everything by 1 game...that's the best way to do it :tu

[JamStone]

Well at least Manu got a very small taste of what LeBron and Kobe have had to go through over the last few years, except at least Manu has consistent three point shooters. I'm not knocking Manu because he is one of my top 5 favorite players to watch in the NBA. But, if it's only a microscopic glimpse of how amazing talents like LeBron and Kobe are in terms of night in and night out having to be the #1 and #2 and #3 guy on the team at the same time, it's somewhat impressive how much success each has had without much help. On the other hand, it shows how great the Spurs team was built in terms of matching and complimentary pieces.

[DazedAndConfused]

Damn near everyone on the Spurs can shoot lights out from 3pt land. That more than anything makes them the elite team that they are. Especially this season, they are using that weapon more and more to get back into games or put them out of reach.

[Kori Ellis]

He's been like a malfunctioning robot these last two games.

:lmao

[timvp]

Yeah I like DWAs do I. The problem is I don't think Pop overly likes or trusts him. He's gone away from Washington in the second half a number of times. That's what he used to do with Beno when he was mad at Beno.

Pop plays players he likes. Since the regular season has started, Pop has altered his lineup to find ways not to play Washington.

It's probably because Washington is young and still learning the system but as of right now, I can tell he doesn't have Pop's full confidence. Some young players (like Parker, Rose, SJax, Speedy) Pop has played them through all their struggles and always showed confidence in them. Other young players (Beno, AD, Devin) Pop has had a short hook with and found ways not to play them. Right now, Washington appears to be in that second category.

Hopefully he becomes a Pop favorite sooner than later or else he won't last.

[melo061]

Keep judging everything by 1 game...that's the best way to do it :tu

Kobe torched bowen all last season. Bowen used to force kobe to take bad shots. That isn't the case anymore. That's all i'm saying.

[timvp]

Bowen used to force kobe to take bad shots. That isn't the case anymore. That's all i'm saying.During this game, Kobe was 7-for-20 when Bowen was in the game. He was 3-for-4 when Bowen was out of the game.

But yeah, Bowen has no effect on Kobe anymore :rolleyes

[foodie2]

During this game, Kobe was 7-for-20 when Bowen was in the game. He was 3-for-4 when Bowen was out of the game.

But yeah, Bowen has no effect on Kobe anymore :rolleyes


Yes, it's always interesting how fans of the opposing team come in here and say the exact same thing:

" Bowen didn't exactly beat [insert opposing team's superstar name here]--he usually makes those shots. He's not going to miss them every night."

I think there's a reason that [x] is missing those shots, and his name is Bowen.

[polandprzem]

Manus grade

A+++

[slayermin]

Nice little westcoast retreat for the guys.

Hopefully it did TD and TP some wonders.

[m33p0]

Yes, it's always interesting how fans of the opposing team come in here and say the exact same thing:

" Bowen didn't exactly beat [insert opposing team's superstar name here]--he usually makes those shots. He's not going to miss them every night."

I think there's a reason that [x] is missing those shots, and his name is Bowen.


yeah... its getting to be like a generic post. how many times was kobe able to drive when bowen was guarding him again?

[Purple & Gold]

:sleep :sleep Lakers always play down to their competition.

[703 Spurz]

I watched the Kobe/bowen match up and to be honest, Bowen did not impress me. Most of Kobe's shots were shots he generally takes and makes. He just missed a lot of looks. Kobe got by him to the hole quite a few times to.

I remember back in the day when Bowen used to force Kobe to take unbalanced Jumpers. Not the case anymore.

Kobe isn't going to miss those shots in a series.

Have you watched Bowen's career rather then just 1 game? I mean the guy has made a fucking living by playing defense.

Even if he had a bad night defensively, which I don't think he did, that's the onl game you'd judge him on?

Nice

[diego]

Well at least Manu got a very small taste of what LeBron and Kobe have had to go through over the last few years, except at least Manu has consistent three point shooters. I'm not knocking Manu because he is one of my top 5 favorite players to watch in the NBA. But, if it's only a microscopic glimpse of how amazing talents like LeBron and Kobe are in terms of night in and night out having to be the #1 and #2 and #3 guy on the team at the same time, it's somewhat impressive how much success each has had without much help. On the other hand, it shows how great the Spurs team was built in terms of matching and complimentary pieces.

where were you the other two games when he went for 37/5/5? are you telling me kobe and lebron dont have games where they have 6+ turnovers and 35% FG%? without much help? last night the spurs team was awful compared to the lakers or the cavs. kobe has odom +a comparable roster, lebron has Z and a comparable roster. when manu had parker with him it was comparable to lebron + z or kobe + odom. but i guess you are going to tell me that vaughn-bowen-bonner-elson > fisher-walton-odom-kwame

[SAGambler]

During this game, Kobe was 7-for-20 when Bowen was in the game. He was 3-for-4 when Bowen was out of the game.

But yeah, Bowen has no effect on Kobe anymore :rolleyes

IIRC at halftime, Kobe was 1 for 7 when BB was on him. He was getting his points when someone else was guarding him.

[da_suns_fan__]

So much for those Ginobili/James/Bryant comparisons.

[SAGambler]

-Jacque Vaughn started and showed why he’s a bench player. He hit only 1-of-7 shots from the field and didn’t handle the defensive pressure very well. I loved his energy and toughness, but there’s more to basketball than energy and toughness. Overall though, Vaughn didn’t lose the game. He played his role well enough for the Spurs to win.

I disagree. The offense was stagnant with him in. Little to none moving the ball around. More often than not, it was "Watch Jacque dribble.....dribbble....dribble some more, and then pull up for a brick"......

Yeah, he showed why his is a backup. And a backup that should not spend much time trying to run the team. Especially when the team is minus two of it's main players.

I would have liked to seen Washington play a lot more last night. Sure, he will make some mistakes. But at least he has the energy and hustle that everyone seems to like about Vaughn, while also being an offensive threat.

If you are going to call Washington up, at least give him the PT to show what he can do......

I think if Washington gets JVs minutes, we win that game.

[VaSpursFan]

JV is just plain limited as to what he can do on a basketball court. he needs to know his limitations and his capabilities. he's not a strong finisher at the rim or a jump shooter. so he needs to move the ball instead of dribbling the ball for most of the shot clock and hoisting up a ridiculous j. now, this kid DWash is going to be decent once he puts it all together. he reminds me a lot of baron davis in terms of build and fearlessnes attacking the rim. i would be happy if pop took a chance on him and threw him to the wolves so he can really demonstrate his value to the team. i really like the intensity this guy gives at both ends of the court.

[ManuTastic]

Well at least Manu got a very small taste of what LeBron and Kobe have had to go through over the last few years...

Kobe had to run Shaq off so he could be the lone gunman? Methinks not.

And I don't think Manu needs to learn that lesson; he already knows it's a team sport and that he thrives playing with other great players.

[LEONARD]

Trade Manu???

[m33p0]

[/B]

I disagree. The offense was stagnant with him in. Little to none moving the ball around. More often than not, it was "Watch Jacque dribble.....dribbble....dribble some more, and then pull up for a brick"......

Yeah, he showed why his is a backup. And a backup that should not spend much time trying to run the team. Especially when the team is minus two of it's main players.

I would have liked to seen Washington play a lot more last night. Sure, he will make some mistakes. But at least he has the energy and hustle that everyone seems to like about Vaughn, while also being an offensive threat.

If you are going to call Washington up, at least give him the PT to show what he can do......

I think if Washington gets JVs minutes, we win that game.

agree but not with the washington part. vaughn got caught underneath the basket a few times with no where to go and ended up turning the ball over.

i would have played either brent or manu at the point and just screw the defense on fisher especially at the last 6 minute mark. we needed to outscore them at that point. and given darius' less than stellar performance from the outside and at the free throw line, i would pull him out.

[m33p0]

Trade Manu???

sure. and watch AT&T burn to the ground. don't forget to bring the marshmallows.

[JamStone]

where were you the other two games when he went for 37/5/5? are you telling me kobe and lebron dont have games where they have 6+ turnovers and 35% FG%? without much help? last night the spurs team was awful compared to the lakers or the cavs. kobe has odom +a comparable roster, lebron has Z and a comparable roster. when manu had parker with him it was comparable to lebron + z or kobe + odom. but i guess you are going to tell me that vaughn-bowen-bonner-elson > fisher-walton-odom-kwame

You mean those two games where Tony Parker was playing?

No, I'm not saying Kobe and LeBron don't have poor games. I'm saying Manu gets a glimpse of what Kobe and LeBron have had to go through for the last several years. That's all.

By the way, last year, Odom missed 26 games, Walton missed 22 games, Kwambe Brown missed 41 games. And there were long stretches where Kobe was missing all three of those regular starters at the same time and had play with much worse than what Manu had last night. Radmanovic also missed 27 games and Turiaf 10.

I'll tell you Bowen-Oberto-Barry-Finley-Horry-Vaughn is better than Smush Parker-Mo Evans-Brian Cook-Bynum-Vujacic.

As for LeBron, he hasn't had help his whole career in Cleveland. If you want to say Z is a pretty good player, that's fine. He's far from a player that substantially helps consistently at either end of the floor.

My original post wasn't a blast on Manu. It's to say how truly incredible Kobe and LeBron have been the last few seasons because they have to deal with what Manu had to deal with last night for the last couple seasons and still found ways to win while being everything for the team offensively. Manu slappies will get offended at anything that could be perceived as insulting to him. That's not what I was doing.

[JamStone]

Kobe had to run Shaq off so he could be the lone gunman? Methinks not.

And I don't think Manu needs to learn that lesson; he already knows it's a team sport and that he thrives playing with other great players.

There you go bringing up a point that had nothing to do with my comment. And, you take a jab at Kobe for something that pretty much has been determined didn't happen. It's pretty much acknowledged now that it was all about Dr. Buss why Shaq was traded and that Kobe didn't play a role in the decision. But, anything to take a shot at Kobe.

And, I didn't say it was a lesson for Manu. Just expressing my "thought" from the game, as that is the point of the thread.

[MoSpur]

Its hard to say if the Spurs really well considering no Duncan or Parker or if the Lakers were not playing as hard because of no Duncan or Parker. Either way, the game was entertaining at times. I liked from what I saw from Darius. The guy is athletic for his size and fearless. Manu looks tired and the Spurs really need Duncan back.

[ManuTastic]

There you go bringing up a point that had nothing to do with my comment. And, you take a jab at Kobe for something that pretty much has been determined didn't happen. It's pretty much acknowledged now that it was all about Dr. Buss why Shaq was traded and that Kobe didn't play a role in the decision. But, anything to take a shot at Kobe.

And, I didn't say it was a lesson for Manu. Just expressing my "thought" from the game, as that is the point of the thread.

I think it's 'pretty much been determined' that it did happen. But if there's good evidence out there that it didn't, I'd be interested in seeing it. Where are you getting this?

[JamStone]

Kobe's vehement claims that he didn't ask for Shaq to be traded, and Dr. Buss and the rest of Lakers brass not denying that claim. Kobe and Shaq may have not gotten along well. But, Kobe did not "run Shaq off." He didn't not have a vote in the decision to trade him. Where are you getting that it "did happen?"

[Manudona]

JamStone,

You also need to consider that Lebron and Kobe are used to play like that for is the way they play all season, is different when you find yourself in that position for a bunch of games, you need to re-adapt your game and that is not easy either.

[JamStone]

JamStone,

You also need to consider that Lebron and Kobe are used to play like that for is the way they play all season, is different when you find yourself in that position for a bunch of games, you need to re-adapt your game and that is not easy either.


Take that into consideration all you want. That's fine. Again, my comments are not a slight to Manu. Manu is one of my favorite players to watch. And, seeing him struggle having to carry the bulk of the offensive responsibilities tells me how hard Kobe and LeBron have had it. My comments are complimentary of Kobe and LeBron, not insulting towards Manu.

[meta2007]

Manu and spurs are not used to this situation. They were not sure how to do. But, if this situation continued, Manu and spurs would figure out an efficient way to deal with it.

[LakeShow]

The long layoff hurt the lakers last night but they won a game they should have won.

Didn't care for the change in the starting lineup last night. It was waltons first game back from injury and I don't know what the heck is wrong with Odom but they were not having the best of games. Maybe they would be better coming off the bench. The Lakers are so deep it shouldn't matter who starts or not. I would like to see a little more energy at the beginning of the game. Turiaf should start and get Ariza primed to start at the 3 and the Lakers future looks pretty bright.

Good to see the Lakers finally getting a little recognition.

[BonnerDynasty]

Good to see the Lakers finally getting a little recognition.

:lol

[FromWayDowntown]

I agree with seeing the silver lining from the Spurs' perspective on this one. Take two all-star caliber players away from any team and it will struggle. Take away a big who commands double-teams and controls the paint defensively and a point who constantly attacks and creates shots by drawing defense (even if his assist totals might not show it) and that team is in a bad way. With that adversity, the Spurs experimented and almost found their way to a win. It's become the Popovich formula with this group of role players -- play hard and see what happens. They did that last night and nearly got out of Staples with another win.

I suppose I'm always inclined to take a broader view than just one game, and I have to say that the broader view of the last week or so strikes me as being extremely rosy for the Spurs if they can stay healthy. We've seen now that the depth of this team is good enough to split 4 games against playoff teams without Duncan while having a legitimate shot to take 3 of those 4. They were sloppy for huge chunks of last night's game, but were still right there. History certainly suggests that the sloppiness is something that will improve. I don't think this team is going very far without Tim Duncan, but these 4 games have certainly shown that if you take Duncan away, the Spurs can be fairly competitive in the short run against quality teams at home or on the road. I don't think it's just as simple as adding Duncan back in and assuming they'll roll in games like these last 4, but I do think that we'll see just how Tim can make the game easier for his teammates (Manu, in particular) and that gives me great hope for where this team can go.

[duncan228]

I don't think it's just as simple as adding Duncan back in and assuming they'll roll in games like these last 4, but I do think that we'll see just how Tim can make the game easier for his teammates (Manu, in particular) and that gives me great hope for where this team can go.

As always, your entire post is wonderful. I agree with everything you said and appreciate your calming influence on this board. I also have great hope for this team and believe a repeat seems more likely this season than in past chances.

I hope that people who seem to forget what Duncan brings to this team will rediscover him when he comes back.
It easy to miss things that don't show in a boxscore. Duncan is way more than a double-double player to this team.
His season so far has not been great by his standards but I'm hoping the respect for him comes back.
The Spurs do not win a Championship without him.

[m33p0]

one thing that the team could take away from that game was the roleplayers found out that they had it in them to win. just have to figure out what went right. of course, having horry with his experience really helps.

[SpursFanFirst]

These last two games were definitely a ploy to get D'Antoni to coach the West at the ASG.

I'm missing something here. What does this mean?
People keep saying it, but I don't know where they're getting this.
Anyone?

[SpurOutofTownFan]

[/B]

I disagree. The offense was stagnant with him in. Little to none moving the ball around. More often than not, it was "Watch Jacque dribble.....dribbble....dribble some more, and then pull up for a brick"......

Yeah, he showed why his is a backup. And a backup that should not spend much time trying to run the team. Especially when the team is minus two of it's main players.

I would have liked to seen Washington play a lot more last night. Sure, he will make some mistakes. But at least he has the energy and hustle that everyone seems to like about Vaughn, while also being an offensive threat.

If you are going to call Washington up, at least give him the PT to show what he can do......

I think if Washington gets JVs minutes, we win that game.

Trade JV for Vujacic

[diego]

You mean those two games where Tony Parker was playing?

No, I'm not saying Kobe and LeBron don't have poor games. I'm saying Manu gets a glimpse of what Kobe and LeBron have had to go through for the last several years. That's all.

By the way, last year, Odom missed 26 games, Walton missed 22 games, Kwambe Brown missed 41 games. And there were long stretches where Kobe was missing all three of those regular starters at the same time and had play with much worse than what Manu had last night. Radmanovic also missed 27 games and Turiaf 10.

I'll tell you Bowen-Oberto-Barry-Finley-Horry-Vaughn is better than Smush Parker-Mo Evans-Brian Cook-Bynum-Vujacic.

As for LeBron, he hasn't had help his whole career in Cleveland. If you want to say Z is a pretty good player, that's fine. He's far from a player that substantially helps consistently at either end of the floor.

My original post wasn't a blast on Manu. It's to say how truly incredible Kobe and LeBron have been the last few seasons because they have to deal with what Manu had to deal with last night for the last couple seasons and still found ways to win while being everything for the team offensively. Manu slappies will get offended at anything that could be perceived as insulting to him. That's not what I was doing.

right, those two games that, as i referenced in my post, are comparable in that there is a 2nd all star on the floor (like it or not, Z and Odom are both all stars, though i wouldnt trade either for TP :spin ).

i understand your post, and know that you arent hating for the sake of it. but i think its an unfair comparison because you make it sound like thats how it is for them all the time. do lebron and kobe go through stretches where the only decent help they have is injured? sure. but thats not the whole season for them, just like this is not the whole season for manu. manu had two good games without duncan, 1 bad one without him, and another bad one without parker or duncan. I havent bothered to get the averages for the 4, but rounding it it pretty much like kobe or lebron's season average usually looks like: 20+ ppg by volume, with plenty of boards, assists, turnovers, and about .500 record.

i havent proclaimed manu a franchise player or a super star or anything like that based on those 37pt games. and because of that i reserve the right to call out the people who'll say he is incapable of it based on two 15pt 6 TO games.

[FromWayDowntown]

I'm missing something here. What does this mean?
People keep saying it, but I don't know where they're getting this.
Anyone?

The coach whose team has the best record in the conference a couple of weeks before the ASG earns the right to coach the all-star team. Pop was 3 games up on everyone before the game in Oakland, but now the Spurs are only 1 game ahead of Phoenix. As the gap narrows, the chances go up that the Suns, not the Spurs, will have the best record at the cutoff and that D'Antoni, not Pop, will coach the West team at the All-Star game.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

You mean those two games where Tony Parker was playing?

No, I'm not saying Kobe and LeBron don't have poor games. I'm saying Manu gets a glimpse of what Kobe and LeBron have had to go through for the last several years. That's all.

By the way, last year, Odom missed 26 games, Walton missed 22 games, Kwambe Brown missed 41 games. And there were long stretches where Kobe was missing all three of those regular starters at the same time and had play with much worse than what Manu had last night. Radmanovic also missed 27 games and Turiaf 10.

I'll tell you Bowen-Oberto-Barry-Finley-Horry-Vaughn is better than Smush Parker-Mo Evans-Brian Cook-Bynum-Vujacic.

As for LeBron, he hasn't had help his whole career in Cleveland. If you want to say Z is a pretty good player, that's fine. He's far from a player that substantially helps consistently at either end of the floor.

My original post wasn't a blast on Manu. It's to say how truly incredible Kobe and LeBron have been the last few seasons because they have to deal with what Manu had to deal with last night for the last couple seasons and still found ways to win while being everything for the team offensively. Manu slappies will get offended at anything that could be perceived as insulting to him. That's not what I was doing.

With all respect you deserve, you are comparing apples to oranges. Kobe and Lebron know from the very beginning they have to do that every game. Manu doesn't have to do that every day, his team is not supposed to go thru what is going on now. If Manu was the only guy in the spurs, then I'm sure that coaching, practices and whatnot would be different and pointing towards making him adapt to anotehr way of playing. He would know before the season starts that he needs to score 30+ per game or be out. He would know he's the only guy with teh ball when it counts. That's what Lebron and Kobe go thru each season.

I would recommend you to get acquanted with what manu has done overseas before coming to the US for a totally different role he's ever had. When he was over there he had to play Kobe/Lebron many times and he was expected to do so.

So, totally different worlds that can't be translated like 1+1 = 2. The spurs are not built to have TP and TD out for long periods of time. Physically Manu can't play 35 mins a game during the entire season - he hasn't done that in years and the style of play doesn't require that. I honestly don't think manu needs to "taste" what the other guys go thru. He's done that alreayd many times.

Well, that was just my opinion

[BonnerDynasty]

As always, your entire post is wonderful. I agree with everything you said and appreciate your calming influence on this board. I also have great hope for this team and believe a repeat seems more likely this season than in past chances.

I hope that people who seem to forget what Duncan brings to this team will rediscover him when he comes back.
It easy to miss things that don't show in a boxscore. Duncan is way more than a double-double player to this team.
His season so far has not been great by his standards but I'm hoping the respect for him comes back.
The Spurs do not win a Championship without him.

No one has forgotten who T.D is :sleep

His absense shows the complete lack of interior defense and the fact that we NEED an inside outside game.

If we had another big who could actually post someone up, who could clog up the middle with DECENT defense, and if Manu would have showed up in the last two games, the Spurs would be 4-0 without TD.

We've got the deepest bench in the league but we are missing huge components without T.D. I'm glad T.D. has been out so we could see what we were missing in our bench players. I'd be fine with him sitting out 10 more games just to see if the bigs could step it up each game.

[FromWayDowntown]

My original post wasn't a blast on Manu. It's to say how truly incredible Kobe and LeBron have been the last few seasons because they have to deal with what Manu had to deal with last night for the last couple seasons and still found ways to win while being everything for the team offensively. Manu slappies will get offended at anything that could be perceived as insulting to him. That's not what I was doing.

I think it illustrates the difference between an All-Star and a true franchise player. Kobe and Lebron, whatever else they are, are true franchise players (as is Tim Duncan). Manu is good enough to do what Kobe and Lebron do at times -- and that's no small feat; it's what makes him an All-Star -- but it's clear that there's a difference between a guy who can do that from time-to-time and a guy who does it every night (or at least most nights).

[bdictjames]

I'd be fine with him sitting out 10 more games just to see if the bigs could step it up each game.
That is the only trouble I had with your post. I enjoyed reading the whole thing though.

For some reason, Spurs for me are more boring without Duncan, and I dont want him not to deserve to go to the All-Star game, as a reserve or as a starter. I want Duncan to go back ASAP, get 20-10 games, and put up a great winning record in December.

[SpursWoman]

The coach whose team has the best record in the conference a couple of weeks before the ASG earns the right to coach the all-star team. Pop was 3 games up on everyone before the game in Oakland, but now the Spurs are only 1 game ahead of Phoenix. As the gap narrows, the chances go up that the Suns, not the Spurs, will have the best record at the cutoff and that D'Antoni, not Pop, will coach the West team at the All-Star game.


D'Antoni would be eligible to do it again this year if Phoenix passes San Antonio?

[kolko]

D'Antonio would be eligible to do it again this year if Phoenix passes San Antonio?
Avery Johnson coached it last year.

[SpursWoman]

Avery Johnson coached it last year.


Avery coached it in 2006, D'Antoni coached it in 2007

[meta2007]

That's very ridiculous! Without Duncan and Parker who take more than 30 millions per year, only about half salaries were working. If took out 30 millions salary from lakers and cavaliers, Kobe and Lebron could not win either. Also, if Spurs used those 30 millions dollars to sign other players to play with Manu, Manu and spurs also could win.


I think it illustrates the difference between an All-Star and a true franchise player. Kobe and Lebron, whatever else they are, are true franchise players (as is Tim Duncan). Manu is good enough to do what Kobe and Lebron do at times -- and that's no small feat; it's what makes him an All-Star -- but it's clear that there's a difference between a guy who can do that from time-to-time and a guy who does it every night (or at least most nights).

[Uncle Donnie]

With all respect you deserve, you are comparing apples to oranges. Kobe and Lebron know from the very beginning they have to do that every game. Manu doesn't have to do that every day, his team is not supposed to go thru what is going on now.

Not only that but look at who Manu was playing with.

Vaughn < Fisher
Oberto < Odom
Bowen > Walton
Bonner < Bynum

It's hardly a valid comparison. No one would put Manu in the same category as Lebron or Kobe but to say that his struggles last night mean anything about how good Kobe or Lebron are is a reach.

[timvp]

If the worst thing someone says about Manu is he isn't as good as LeBron or Kobe, I'd take that as a compliment. Fighting the fight to equate Manu to LeBron or Kobe is pretty ridiculous.

Is Manu as good as Kobe or LeBron? Not on a nightly basis. Is Manu damn good? Yes.

[meta2007]

You know what, for Manu's fans, he is the best. For LeBron's fans, he is the best. For Kobe's fans, he is the best. Different person has different aesthetic judgment.

This is just like that, for a man, his wife is the most beautiful woman in the world, and his children are the cutest children in the world.



If the worst thing someone says about Manu is he isn't as good as LeBron or Kobe, I'd take that as a compliment. Fighting the fight to equate Manu to LeBron or Kobe is pretty ridiculous.

Is Manu as good as Kobe or LeBron? Not on a nightly basis. Is Manu damn good? Yes.

[FromWayDowntown]

Avery coached it in 2006, D'Antoni coached it in 2007

I forgot about that -- swept up in the Mavs' 06-07 successes.

SW is absolutely right.

[JamStone]

right, those two games that, as i referenced in my post, are comparable in that there is a 2nd all star on the floor (like it or not, Z and Odom are both all stars, though i wouldnt trade either for TP :spin ).

It's not about me liking it or not, but Lamar Odom has never played in an all star game. And, the two times Zydrunas was an all star, the best the East had to offer to start at center was an offensively challenged Ben Wallace. For several years, the East had no good centers and Zydrunas was an all star by default. That's hardly comparable to Tony Parker who is a Finals MVP and looks to have many more all star appearances than 2 or zero. Neither Odom or Zydrunas is as impactful on a game the way Tony Parker is. And, again, at least as it pertains to Kobe, he's played without Odom in about 50 games since Odom became a Laker.

At any rate, you have your opinion. In my opinion, Manu and Spurs fans got a glimpse of what players like Kobe and LeBron have to go through night in and night out over the last few seasons.

[JamStone]

With all respect you deserve, you are comparing apples to oranges. Kobe and Lebron know from the very beginning they have to do that every game. Manu doesn't have to do that every day, his team is not supposed to go thru what is going on now. If Manu was the only guy in the spurs, then I'm sure that coaching, practices and whatnot would be different and pointing towards making him adapt to anotehr way of playing. He would know before the season starts that he needs to score 30+ per game or be out. He would know he's the only guy with teh ball when it counts. That's what Lebron and Kobe go thru each season.

Again, it's not a slight on Manu. I'm not saying he's a lesser player because of it. All I've said is that Manu got a chance to experience what Kobe and LeBron have had to experience for several seasons, being the facilitator, the scorer, the guy that gets the entire defense focused on him and see how difficult it can be sometimes. My comments were not directed at Manu. They were to speak on how much credit Kobe and LeBron should get for continuing to play at high levels despite having little help.



I would recommend you to get acquanted with what manu has done overseas before coming to the US for a totally different role he's ever had. When he was over there he had to play Kobe/Lebron many times and he was expected to do so.

I would recommend you to re-read my first post and realize my comments were not a slight against Manu but complimentary praise to players like Kobe and LeBron.



So, totally different worlds that can't be translated like 1+1 = 2. The spurs are not built to have TP and TD out for long periods of time. Physically Manu can't play 35 mins a game during the entire season - he hasn't done that in years and the style of play doesn't require that. I honestly don't think manu needs to "taste" what the other guys go thru. He's done that alreayd many times.

Didn't say they were the same world. Wasn't translating any mathematic formula. If you can place your bias aside for a moment, you'll realize my comments, though including Manu, aren't about Manu.



Well, that was just my opinion

Cool.

[LakerLanny]

The officiating was atrocious, but that isn't exactly a news flash.

If Duncan and Parker didn't exist, I would like our chances in the West. Methinks they may have been good for 5 or more pts combined though.

Meaningless regular season game, but I'll take it.

By the way, your fellow SpursTalk fans DESTROYED me in Fantasy Football....I didn't even make the playoffs despite having the first pick in the draft, the HORROR! You know how long it took me to save up that $10?

[JamStone]

Not only that but look at who Manu was playing with.

Vaughn < Fisher
Oberto < Odom
Bowen > Walton
Bonner < Bynum

It's hardly a valid comparison. No one would put Manu in the same category as Lebron or Kobe but to say that his struggles last night mean anything about how good Kobe or Lebron are is a reach.


And, the long stretches of games Kobe played with Smush Parker, Sasha Vujacic, Brian Cook, and Ronny Turiaf as the main role players around him when Odom, Kwame, and Luke Walter were injured and Andrew Bynum was sucking last year?

And, it wasn't a comparison of individuals between Kobe/LeBron and Manu. It's a comparison of a situation where one player has to do everything for a team, especially offensively, in order to have success.

[JamStone]

I think it illustrates the difference between an All-Star and a true franchise player. Kobe and Lebron, whatever else they are, are true franchise players (as is Tim Duncan). Manu is good enough to do what Kobe and Lebron do at times -- and that's no small feat; it's what makes him an All-Star -- but it's clear that there's a difference between a guy who can do that from time-to-time and a guy who does it every night (or at least most nights).


That wasn't my point. I have no doubt that if Manu had to play without Duncan and Parker for long stretches of games, he'd figure a way to have some outstanding performances. My point is that when an entire offense requires your playmaking and scoring almost all throughout the game and the defense is completely focused on you and geared to stop you, it's extremely difficult.

Manu could have gone for 30, 10, and 10 last night and my comment would essentially be the same. Everyone would be proclaiming how great Manu was without Duncan and Parker, and I'd say yeah it was amazing, and think about Kobe and LeBron having to do that 50-60 games a season where they have to put up those kinds of performances to help their teams win.

People are focusing on my comments thinking it's somehow me trying to explain how Manu is not as good as Kobe or LeBron. That's not what my comments are intended for at all. They are saying how difficult it is for an individual player to carry the load offensively especially when a team's one and only priority is to stop that one individual player.

Again, it's more praise on players like Kobe and LeBron than it is anything negative on Manu.

[Slippy]

Since we making comparisons. I don't think i saw even one instance where Kobe got double teamed or trapped on the perimeter like Manu did. At Timvp's thoughts suggested, the lakers ate him up.

Come to think of it , I don't remember the Spurs employing that type of D on Kobe in years. Having Bruce to guard him and Tim to back you up does make things easier .

[Slippy]

although, i do remember the Spurs giving the same looks on D to lebron in the finals and we know how that went.

[Medvedenko]

But lets be honest here..Lebron and Kobe are better. No way that is an insult because Lebron and Kobe could be one of the 5 best offensive players ever in the game once they retire!

Kobe is already in the Top 3 for offensive players of all time....this is a lock. You can't base it on pure PPG either.
Wilt
MJ
Kobe

[JamStone]

Kobe is already in the Top 3 for offensive players of all time....this is a lock. You can't base it on pure PPG either.
Wilt
MJ
Kobe

Have you heard of Oscar Robertson, and I'm not basing it on just PPG.

[Medvedenko]

I love the Big O....but he's not in the Top 3.

[JamStone]

I love the Big O....but he's not in the Top 3.

He's not in YOUR Top 3. Unbiased opinions would differ.

[Medvedenko]

That is true...no argueing here Jamstone.....

[SpursFanFirst]

The coach whose team has the best record in the conference a couple of weeks before the ASG earns the right to coach the all-star team. Pop was 3 games up on everyone before the game in Oakland, but now the Spurs are only 1 game ahead of Phoenix. As the gap narrows, the chances go up that the Suns, not the Spurs, will have the best record at the cutoff and that D'Antoni, not Pop, will coach the West team at the All-Star game.

OK...Thanks, FWD!

[LaMarcus Bryant]

timvp you seriously think Darius' wont last long on the Spurs based on what we've seen so far?

I don't get why Pop would think like that, the guy is already better at running the point than beno ever was. He does a little trigger happy i guess.

[lefty]

another happy loss ... :rolleyes

:lol

[ShoogarBear]

I think it illustrates the difference between an All-Star and a true franchise player. Kobe and Lebron, whatever else they are, are true franchise players (as is Tim Duncan). Manu is good enough to do what Kobe and Lebron do at times -- and that's no small feat; it's what makes him an All-Star -- but it's clear that there's a difference between a guy who can do that from time-to-time and a guy who does it every night (or at least most nights).People have been making this same point for, oh, only about five years now. To no avail.

Save this for a cutapasta.

[lefty]

Overall, I was actually really happy with the way the Spurs performed in this game. In fact, I’m happier about this game than a lot of the wins the Spurs had this season. The Spurs were minus Tim Duncan and Tony Parker, got a horrible performance from Manu Ginobili and still stayed in it the whole way. You can’t be upset about that.

I also liked how the Spurs didn’t back down. The Lakers decided to get physical and the Spurs were willing to up their level of physicality. There was no backing down from the Spurs tonight. That’s great to see when you're out on the road and the other team has much more talent than you.

The Lakers can’t really take many positives out of this game. Their bench saved them. Without quality efforts from players like Vladimir Radmanovic and Ronny Turiaf, the Spurs could have easily won this game. For the first time in a long time the Lakers actually have a quality bench, which allows Phil Jackson to better use some of the coaching tricks he’s picked up throughout the years.

-Manu Ginobili was simply horrible or terrible or whatever other synonym you can think of that means really, really bad. It seemed as if every time he caught the ball, he thought he had to be the hero. And while sometimes he can be that hero, it wasn’t happening tonight when he had no energy, no explosion in his legs and a team focused to stop him. I would blame it on fatigue but a lot of it was just uncharacteristically dumb plays. For the game, Ginobili finished with 14 points on 5-for-17 shooting and seven turnovers. With Duncan sitting, Ginobili obviously missed having at least Tony Parker on his side because even if Parker isn’t playing well, he absorbs a lot of the defensive pressure from the opponents. Without Parker, Ginobili became the focal point and the Lakers were able to eat him up. It’s no mistake that Ginobili finished with a team worst plus/minus of -12, which was double as bad as anyone else on the team.

-If Bruce Bowen got to play against the Lakers every game, he might be in the league leaders in scoring. Earlier this year, Bowen had 23 against the Lakers. In this game, he went for 22 points on 8-for-14 shooting from the field. More impressively, he guarded Kobe Bryant amazingly well, especially considering Bowen literally had no shotblocker behind him at any point. For all those league pundits that say Bowen is only a good defender because he has Duncan behind him, this is a classic example of why that’s untrue.

-Fabricio Oberto had yet another good game. In a shade over 37 minutes, Oberto scored nine points and pulled down a career-high 16 rebounds. He also chipped in with three assists, one steal and one block. I also thought his defense on Andrew Bynum was rather solid and he was protecting the rim better than usual. Oberto gave it absolutely everything he had, which is all you can ask.

-Jacque Vaughn started and showed why he’s a bench player. He hit only 1-of-7 shots from the field and didn’t handle the defensive pressure very well. I loved his energy and toughness, but there’s more to basketball than energy and toughness. Overall though, Vaughn didn’t lose the game. He played his role well enough for the Spurs to win.

-Coming off the best game of his life, Matt Bonner came crashing back down to earth. In 16 minutes, Bonner went scoreless and only grabbed three rebounds. The Lakers did a good job of closing out on him, but Bonner was hesitating much more than he usually does. Bonner could have really made a case to for himself to earn consistent playing time when Duncan returns if he would have played well. Instead, Bonner laid an egg.

-Brent Barry got some rare minutes at point guard and performed rather nicely. He finished with 17 points, four rebounds and four assists while hitting 6-of-11 shots from the field. His defense suffered at points but he proved to be a capable option when it comes to running the show. Pop is never going to let him play extended minutes at point guard due to his defensive deficiencies, but for a few minutes here and there Barry can handle it. If nothing else, this game was valuable since it let Barry test the waters at point guard for the first time in a long time.

-Robert Horry is still out of shape but I thought he played very well, all things considered. He finished with six points, four rebounds, four assists, three blocked shots and two steals. That’s a vintage Horry line from his heyday. Since Horry has returned to the Spurs, I’ve been very impressed by his focus. He usually loafs through the regular season, but he’s playing with a purpose.

-Michael Finley is another Spur who went down swinging. He had 11 points, three rebounds and four assists and played physically on the defensive end of the court. He shot poorly (4-for-13) but he was at least taking good shots for the most part. He did a good job on Lamar Odom when Odom was giving the Spurs trouble. On the night, Finley led the Spurs in plus/minus at +6.

-Darius Washington stepped off the plane and played decently enough. He almost had a highlight reel dunk over a couple Lakers where he showed athleticism I didn’t know he had. He’s still early in his development but he continues to be relatively impressive.

-Ime Udoka came in and had a few possessions against Bryant. Bowen got in foul trouble early and Pop went with Udoka for his defense. Although Bryant scored a couple baskets on him, Udoka’s defense was fine. Obviously, he’s not going to play Bowen level defense but he’s proving himself to be the second best one-on-one perimeter defender on the team already.

-Francisco Elson came off the bench, blew some defensive assignments and found himself back on the bench. He actually had a nice move on the low block but bad defense and no rebounds in six minutes gets you some added pine time.

-On one hand, I want to give Pop props for getting the players ready to play and giving this good effort. However, I disagreed with a lot of his decisions. First of all, without Duncan and Parker in the lineup, I think you have to get the most offense as possible in the starting lineup. Going with Vaughn to start with was just asking for the offense to become stagnant. I would have rather seen Pop go with Barry, Ginobili or even Washington at point guard to start the game. And as tough of a decision as it would have been, I would have liked to have seen Pop keep Ginobili on the bench when the Spurs were rolling without him and Ginobili was so obviously out of rhythm. A lot of times during the game, the Spurs were best without Ginobili on the court. Keeping Ginobili on the bench while letting him get an extended rest for a late push made more sense to me than playing him 35 minutes. Overall though, I was more than pleased with the effort and it’s games like these that a team needs to build. You don’t improve much when you blowout a bad team by 30 points. However, you can improve when you are basically without your three best players in a hostile environment with your backs against the wall. Nice showing and should help down the line when the Spurs again face adversity.

:tu

[SenorSpur]

Vaughn has made some really nice J's the last couple games. Also he's driven to the basket and gotten the foul when the offense was stagnant. He's also got aggressive D.

I prefer to watch Washington because he is young, seems to have a pretty solid build, is the underdog noob battling for a spot, is more exciting to watch, and pushes the ball very well.

Totally agree. I thought Pop should have gone with Wash instead of Vaughn to start. Wash was active, quicker to the ball and fearless.

Vaughn is a tough, smart defender - but the offense DOES tend to stagnate with him running the point. With all his veteran experience you wonder why he's not much more of a definitive penetrator and distributor.