Game Thoughts: Toros vs. 14ers - Dec. 14, 2007

[ChumpDumper]

Much closer game than last time, but the Toros won their sixth game in a row.

Box score. (http://www.nba.com/dleague/games/20071214/COLAUS/boxscore.html)

- Ian had a great game as his line shows, but he definitely should have had one on offense. 14ers coach Joe Wolf didn't want to risk getting Elton Brown in foul trouble and Julius Sensely was not available, so Ian was defended for most of the game by players that were half a foot shorter. Wolf seemed content to let Ian get his and concentrate on keeping Keith Langford from going off completely. Ian shot well, though he made some unnecessary spin moves on his small defenders when he was close enough to put one of his patented baby hooks over them. His rebounding mostly reflects the smaller competition as well. The big news is that Ian was able to play almost the full 48 minutes with only four fouls. He's calmed down quite a bit and cut down on the silly reaches that would get him benched early in other games. He had two recorded blocks, at least one more that was wiped out by someone else's foul, and numerous intimidations. Elton Brown did end up scoring a lot more than last time -- his teammates got him the ball a little better and he got several putbacks -- but the Spurs had to be happy with Ian's staying in the whole game and performing well.

- DerMarr Johnson had a good game, picking up 13 boards due in no small part to the height advantage he had over just about everybody, but he did put some decent efforts in to get them as well. Hopefully he can build on that against bigger, stronger rebounders. His three point shooting was key to the win; the team was doing a very good job finding him when he was hot. His defense was also good. The way he plays the lanes and gets deflections to disrupt the opposing offense is becoming common to the entire team. He has set a good example.

- Marcus Williams three opint shooting was nonexistent, but he shot six of ten inside the arc. He turned the ball over a lot. He doesn't seem to be that great a halfcourt passer for setting up teammates, but his passing is very good in transition and when inbounding the ball. Marcus got some good offensive boards and managed to play over 40 minutes without foul trouble as well.

- Cheyne Gadson was flirting with triple-double numbers tonight and continues to make strides toward running the offense smoothly. He's not as explosive as Washington of course, but he drew his share of fouls with his hustle tonight. His shot was off, but he was perfect from the line at nine of nine. He was guarding his man a little too tightly on the perimeter, especially since that guy wasn't a great 3pt shooter, and let him get by him too often but he didn't give up the middle. Squeaky Johnson played 12.5 important minutes in relief of Gadson, racking up four assists, a big steal and a big jumper when the game was still in doubt. If the Toros can get this kind of play out their point guards in Washington's absence, they have a good chance of keeping the strak alive.

- Langford had a steady if unspectacular night, mostly because he was the main focus of the 14er defense. He still managed to score 20 points on 50% shooting, as well as pulling down eight boards (three offensive) and dishing out four assists. It's getting easy to take him for granted, but he is critical to the Toros' success.

The Toros will have a big test Saturday against a much more balanced Idaho team featuring scoring true center Lance Allred and point guards Taurean Green and Randy Livingston.

[T Park]

DerMarr Johnson had a good game, picking up 13 boards due in no small part to the height advantage he had over just about everybody, but he did put some decent efforts in to get them as well. Hopefully he can build on that against bigger, stronger rebounders. His three point shooting was key to the win; the team was doing a very good job finding him when he was hot. His defense was also good. The way he plays the lanes and gets deflections to disrupt the opposing offense is becoming common to the entire team. He has set a good example


I've liked Demarr Johnson since he was with the Hawks.

IMO, hes the missing long 3, and would be PERFECT off the bench and guarding Dirk Nowitzki.

Just wish the Spurs saw it and signed him, and got him minutes.

[whottt]

Ian's shotblocking totals are a little disappointing...I don't think he's had more than 2 in a game yet and that's only happened once or twice right?

Not exactly the kind of totals you look for from a shotblocker...especially in a game where he has a clear size advantage.


Don't get me wrong...the 30/10 is nice as is the lack of foul trouble...but I was really hoping he'd be the guy who can block shots...

So far he's looking like an Elson/Nazr level shotblocker...and that's not what I was hoping to see.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Nice thoughts, thanks CD. :tu

[mystargtr34]

Ian looks like he had a great game... im impressed with his free throw shooting... hes a guy who should be able to get to the line a far bit in the league because of his exposiveness around the rim.

[timvp]

Nice report, per usual :tu

I don't know if I'm more impressed with Mahinmi's minutes played due to lack of fouls or the rest of his statline. :lol

This might literally be the first game he's played in summer league or D-League that he didn't end up in major foul trouble. Was he guarding Elton Br. or did the Toros keep him off the ball to avoid foul trouble?

The rebounding from DerMarr Johnson is a bit surprising considering he might be the worst rebounder in the history of the NBA who was at least 6-foot-9. However, that does point to how poor Mahinmi's rebounding has been so far.

Marcus Williams is putting up decent stats. Nothing that has him in line to get called up by anyone but at least it looks like he's trying out there.

Is Pittsnogle fat, lazy or both? I assume he didn't play much today due to small ball but his stats look horrible on the season. It might be time to cut the cord on the Pittsnogle experiment because it's not like he can improve his skill level at this point. He's an undermotivated bigman who can shoot ... but that it doesn't appear as if the motivation has kicked in yet.

It's notable that while the Spurs were having Parker try to play through his injury, the Toros were preparing for the loss of Washington. I'm guessing that wasn't by accident.

[ChumpDumper]

Ian's shotblocking totals are a little disappointing...I don't think he's had more than 2 in a game yet and that's only happened once or twice right?

Not exactly the kind of totals you look for from a shotblocker...especially in a game where he has a clear size advantage.


Don't get me wrong...the 30/10 is nice as is the lack of foul trouble...but I was really hoping he'd be the guy who can block shots...

So far he's looking like an Elson/Nazr level shotblocker...and that's not what I was hoping to see.It seems like the staff's goal is to keep Ian in games as long as possible, and that has meant reining in his more instinctive defensive play that can get him into foul trouble. I'm not overly worried about the block totals at this point. He's changing his game so he is thinking about his actions out on the floor probably more than he ever has, and there is a bit of hesitation in some situations because his training has yet to become second nature. I'm good with giving it some time -- his length and leaping ability haven't changed at all.

[whottt]

Darius was putting up 28ppg to lead the D-league...and throwing in 8.5 boards to boot...I'm glad they called mini-Kidd up....

[whottt]

It seems like the staff's goal is to keep Ian in games as long as possible, and that has meant reining in his more instinctive defensive play that can get him into foul trouble. I'm not overly worried about the block totals at this point. He's changing his game so he is thinking about his actions out on the floor probably more than he ever has, and there is a bit of hesitation in some situations because his training has yet to become second nature. I'm good with giving it some time -- his length and leaping ability haven't changed at all.


Well that's cool, I guess the fouls are the priority...it's just a shame if he does that have that leaping ability, length and quickness...and then can't block shots...I've seen guys that have all the tools to be a great shotblocker, but for what ever reason just can't do it...hopefully Ian won't turn out that way...it'd be nice to have another great shotblocker on the team.

[timvp]

The rebounding from DerMarr Johnson is a bit surprising considering he might be the worst rebounder in the history of the NBA who was at least 6-foot-9.I scoffed at timvp's hyperbolic statement. Surely there had to be a worse rebounding player in NBA history who was 6-foot-9 or taller.

After checking it out, timvp was actually right :(. Of all players in NBA history who are 6-foot-9 and taller and played at least 300 games in the league, DerMarr Johnson averaged less rebounds per minute than all of them.

All of a sudden Mahinmi's 10 rebounds don't look that impressive . . .

[whottt]

I have to say...that 30points may be a career high for him in pro play(in any league)....that's definitely a good sign and not something I was even expecting. I don't think anyone was expecting his offense to be the strongest part of his game...but it's looking like that's the way it is for now.

[ChumpDumper]

I don't know if I'm more impressed with Mahinmi's minutes played due to lack of fouls or the rest of his statline. :lolIt's the fouls for me.


This might literally be the first game he's played in summer league or D-League that he didn't end up in major foul trouble. Was he guarding Elton Br. or did the Toros keep him off the ball to avoid foul trouble?Ian and DerMarr shared duties guarding him.


The rebounding from DerMarr Johnson is a bit surprising considering he might be the worst rebounder in the history of the NBA who was at least 6-foot-9. However, that does point to how poor Mahinmi's rebounding has been so far.Yeah, I want to see these numbers against a big team.


Marcus Williams is putting up decent stats. Nothing that has him in line to get called up by anyone but at least it looks like he's trying out there.Much better than summer league for sure. He's got kind of an unorthodox skill set and he can be inconsistent skill set so it's hard to peg him as a certain type of player. The best thing about him is he doesn't need plays run for him to be effective. He can be a scorer of last resort or garbage man.


Is Pittsnogle fat, lazy or both? I assume he didn't play much today due to small ball but his stats look horrible on the season. It might be time to cut the cord on the Pittsnogle experiment because it's not like he can improve his skill level at this point. He's an undermotivated bigman who can shoot ... but that it doesn't appear as if the motivation has kicked in yet.I pretty much agree with that. Just being able to shoot isn't going to get him to the next level -- it's not even getting him playing time on this level where a man his size with any post skill can dominate. Lance Allred just dropped 32 on the Vipers Friday, for example. Kevin needs to do, well, something. Anything. Otherwise there is no reason he should be getting time over Eric Dawson or Anthony Fuqua.


It's notable that while the Spurs were having Parker try to play through his injury, the Toros were preparing for the loss of Washington. I'm guessing that wasn't by accident.Maybe not, but like I said: if there is a quality point guard available to you, you should just take him and figure the rest out later. Darius' being called up was going to happen at some time this season; I'm just glad the Toros were able to get someone to cover his minutes while he is gone.

[mattyc]

Mahinmi's box score is only a good thing for his development.

[ChumpDumper]

Oh, I forgot. Justin Bowen played but was pretty gimpy on his ankle. He got a couple of offensive boards and hit a nice straight-on three pointer late, but was a step slow guarding the smaller 14er players, and fouled out in a little over fifteen minutes.

[jdaveah]

After watching every game of Marcus' career, a few things to point out about his D league play. His transition decision making and inbounds passing being strengths are nothing new. Arizona is a big time fast break team so he's had plenty of practice adn he was lmost always the inbounder on out of bounds plays since he really isn't a catch and shoot guy.

I would be shocked if he ever develops the NBA 3, and I think it behooves the Toros coaching staff to get him to stop trying for now at least. He had problems with the college 3, and every possesion where he attempts an NBA level 3 is a possesion where the only positive that can possibly come is Ian working on offensive rebounding. Also, if he is able to not shoot that 3 then he is working on his mid range game and creating for others, which would truly be his ticket is he is ever to be called up by anyone.

Also, in a half court style game, expect Marcus to lead the team in turnovers. He doesn't really understand how to use his strengths in a half court game, and the process of figuring it out will no doubt be messy.

My question for CD having not been able to see this or any other Toros game is how has his (and really everyone's) defense looked so far? I would imagine they're trying to play with the Spurs defensive principles as far as forcing guys baseline to shotblockers and help D and all that, but I can't imagine that would work so well with a group that hasn't ever played together prior to this season. Are there any big time individual defensive standouts?

[ChumpDumper]

After watching every game of Marcus' career, a few things to point out about his D league play. His transition decision making and inbounds passing being strengths are nothing new. Arizona is a big time fast break team so he's had plenty of practice adn he was lmost always the inbounder on out of bounds plays since he really isn't a catch and shoot guy.

I would be shocked if he ever develops the NBA 3, and I think it behooves the Toros coaching staff to get him to stop trying for now at least. He had problems with the college 3, and every possesion where he attempts an NBA level 3 is a possesion where the only positive that can possibly come is Ian working on offensive rebounding. Also, if he is able to not shoot that 3 then he is working on his mid range game and creating for others, which would truly be his ticket is he is ever to be called up by anyone.

Also, in a half court style game, expect Marcus to lead the team in turnovers. He doesn't really understand how to use his strengths in a half court game, and the process of figuring it out will no doubt be messy.Thanks for the insights.


My question for CD having not been able to see this or any other Toros game is how has his (and really everyone's) defense looked so far? I would imagine they're trying to play with the Spurs defensive principles as far as forcing guys baseline to shotblockers and help D and all that, but I can't imagine that would work so well with a group that hasn't ever played together prior to this season. Are there any big time individual defensive standouts?Actually the funneling defense works ok because of the sheer length of the players the Toros have on the floor much of the time. Their length also enables them to really do a job on opponents' passing lanes, racking up a lot of steals and deflections. There aren't any tremendous straight up defenders so far this season. Last year Justin Bowen had that designation and could be a pretty effective stopper. This season he lost a lot of time to Johnson and Williams even before his injury. Ian has the most potential to shut down a player, but there aren't that many good post players in the league and he has yet to achieve that without getting into major foul trouble. Williams and Johnson should get plenty of challenges for their individual defenses, as this has really become a swingman's league this season.

[wildbill2u]

Great for the players and the teams to have a 'farm' league that can develop players while giving smaller town venues some idea of how entertaining pro ball, or at least the next step up from college ball can be.

[picnroll]

Mahinmi is building on his good FT shooting in pre-season by shooting at a .789 clip in D-league. Maybe that means he won't be an eternally hopeless mid-range clunker and can develop a reliable 12-16 ft shot.

[whottt]

Mahinmi is building on his good FT shooting in pre-season by shooting at a .789 clip in D-league. Maybe that means he won't be an eternally hopeless mid-range clunker and can develop a reliable 12-16 ft shot.

Sin,

Tim Duncan

[bpergrem3]

I was at the game last night and had a great time. $40 ticket got my second row courtside. Pretty good seat when the referee is blocking your veiw.

[Bruno]

It looks like Mahinmi doesn't play tonight against Idaho. If he is injured, let's hope it's not too serious.

[FirebatMIV]

It's a hip flexor, he's day to day.

[AFBlue]

It's a hip flexor, he's day to day.

Obviously it'll be in Chump's game thoughts for tonight's game against the Stampede, but Williams with 29 on 11-15 shooting... :wow

This is a guy that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn in SL play.

Has Chip worked with him on his shot? Does he still have the odd mechanics? Or, is he just shooting his wierd shot with more confidence?

[Mr. Body]

After watching every game of Marcus' career, a few things to point out about his D league play. His transition decision making and inbounds passing being strengths are nothing new.

When basketball starts having a Special Teams unit, Williams will fit right in.

[timvp]

Obviously it'll be in Chump's game thoughts for tonight's game against the Stampede, but Williams with 29 on 11-15 shooting... :wow

This is a guy that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn in SL play.

Has Chip worked with him on his shot? Does he still have the odd mechanics? Or, is he just shooting his wierd shot with more confidence?I obviously didn't watch the game but with Mahinmi out, it looked like Williams started at power forward. Weirdly enough, PF is Williams' natural position.

As I said in another thread, Williams' ticket back to the NBA might be in the form of a smallish all-around big rather than the long three some projected him to be. That said, 6-foot-7 is awfully small for a PF in the NBA . . .

[AFBlue]

I obviously didn't watch the game but with Mahinmi out, it looked like Williams started at power forward. Weirdly enough, PF is Williams' natural position.

As I said in another thread, Williams' ticket back to the NBA might be in the form of a smallish all-around big rather than the long three some projected him to be. That said, 6-foot-7 is awfully small for a PF in the NBA . . .

The 7'1 wingspan and his shot-blocking ability should negate some of the height disadvantage...

My concern would be the weight....210lbs is awfully light.

I know this guy is not a great athlete, but is he really not able to play the SF position? Somehow, I think he'd be okay as a long 3/small ball 4 if he bulked up a bit.

Not saying he's ready to contribute now, but his play of late is certainly encouraging....and he's still young.

[FirebatMIV]

I obviously didn't watch the game but with Mahinmi out, it looked like Williams started at power forward. Weirdly enough, PF is Williams' natural position.

As I said in another thread, Williams' ticket back to the NBA might be in the form of a smallish all-around big rather than the long three some projected him to be. That said, 6-foot-7 is awfully small for a PF in the NBA . . .

He was matched up mainly against threes the entire game on both offense and defense, save for a period where he was guarding Taurean Green.

[ChumpDumper]

Sorry, had an obligation I couldn't get out of and didn't make the game. FWIW, my spies tell me some scouts were on hand to take a look at Marcus Williams and DerMarr Johnson.

[duncan228]

Sorry, had an obligation I couldn't get out of and didn't make the game. FWIW, my spies tell me some scouts were on hand to take a look at Marcus Williams and DerMarr Johnson.

Wow. I'm disappointed that you couldn't make the game.

I'm learning so much about the Toro's and the D League overall from you that not having your thoughts feels like I'm missing something.

I never would have believed I would care!

Thanks ChumpDumper.
It's good to learn about the D League and you've been one of the main reasons I am learning. Your stuff is much more interesting than the dry stuff I find on line.

I look forward to more as the season goes on.

[Bruno]

FWIW, my spies tell me some scouts were on hand to take a look at Marcus Williams and DerMarr Johnson.

If Williams is called up and contribute at the nba level, it will be a huge blow at Spurs FO credibility.

[kyleo]

If Williams is called up and contribute at the nba level, it will be a huge blow at Spurs FO credibility.
Some hyperbole there, I think.

[ChumpDumper]

If Williams is called up and contribute at the nba level, it will be a huge blow at Spurs FO credibility.Given the luxury tax situation, it may not have been their call.

[ChumpDumper]

Wow. I'm disappointed that you couldn't make the game.

I'm learning so much about the Toro's and the D League overall from you that not having your thoughts feels like I'm missing something.

I never would have believed I would care!

Thanks ChumpDumper.
It's good to learn about the D League and you've been one of the main reasons I am learning. Your stuff is much more interesting than the dry stuff I find on line.

I look forward to more as the season goes on.Thanks for the kind words. I hate missing games, but I have to earn some money every once in awhile.

[timvp]

If Williams is called up and contribute at the nba level, it will be a huge blow at Spurs FO credibility.I'd be happy in that scenario. At least it'd restore some faith in the domestic scouts.

Plus Williams by all accounts tries hard and has had a good attitude about everything.

[Bruno]

I'd be happy in that scenario. At least it'd restore some faith in the domestic scouts.

Plus Williams by all accounts tries hard and has had a good attitude about everything.

Yes but mis evaluating a player who is for months with your team is a bigger mistake than drafting a big bust.
Spurs had financial reason to waive him but they could have managed their cap space differently if they wanted to keep him.
Anyway, Williams had first to be called up and then to do well in nba and there is a huge step between doing well in D-League and doing well in nba.
But I wish him good luck wherever he plays. He seems to be a good guy.