Can a relationship survive this?

[easjer]

I have a friend in real life who just confided to me that she is pregnant. This is wildly unplanned, complete accident sort of thing. Her fiance is really, really unhappy about it, because it really screws up their plans for the future (they were getting married in June, had plans to buy a house and a new car, she was supposed to start law school in August, which is when she's due).

In fact, he's asked her terminate the pregnancy.

She's really upset right now. She's unsure about whether or not she wants to have the baby (although she loves kids and really wants to be a mother - they had not planned on children until she passed the bar - over 3 years from now). But she is really upset that he asked her terminate, because she doesn't know what happens if she decides not to.

Without arguing over whether or not you personally believe abortion is a good/viable/necessary/evil/terrible option - do you think a relationship can survive such a thing? It seems very much like a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of thing.

[easjer]

And before rampant speculation starts - this is most definitely NOT SFIE and me. We are planning to start trying for kids sometime in the new year.

[duncan228]

It seems very much like a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of thing.

It does.

If he asked her to terminate the pregnancy without a discussion first about how they both felt about this unexpected event, it seems harsh.

If she's uncertain about what will happen if she doesn't terminate the pregnancy it sounds like that conversation didn't happen.

Rock and a hard place.

I hope whatever decision she makes sits well with her, because from what you've told us, he doesn't sound very loving.

[easjer]

No, I've met him, I believe he loves her very much. I just think this really threw him badly. He had not planned on trying for kids for over 3 years. I am guessing, based on what I know about him, that if she decided to keep the baby, he would stand by her - but it's pretty insidious how that could fuck with her head and how it could all affect things down the line, you know?

I get upset if I think I've forced Jason into eating someplace he didn't want to. I can't imagine how I'd feel about thinking I forced him into fatherhood, you know?

[dimsah]

I would think that if she goes through with the abortion but has doubts then it could possibly be one of the worst things she could do. Not only would it hurt emotionally if/when she does have a child and sees what she gave up but it could also lead to major resentment and cause a division between the couple anyway.

They really need to sit down and discuss it together and she should probably tell him how she feels.

Whatever the decision I wish the best of luck and hope the decision between the two is mutual.

[duncan228]

No, I've met him, I believe he loves her very much. I just think this really threw him badly. He had not planned on trying for kids for over 3 years. I am guessing, based on what I know about him, that if she decided to keep the baby, he would stand by her - but it's pretty insidious how that could fuck with her head and how it could all affect things down the line, you know?

I get upset if I think I've forced Jason into eating someplace he didn't want to. I can't imagine how I'd feel about thinking I forced him into fatherhood, you know?

That could bother the relationship forever.
And come out at the least expected times. Some silly spat and all of a sudden one of them blames the other for being a parent before they wanted to or were "ready."

I don't know if anyone is ever "ready" for children. You can try to be where you want in life before actively trying, but sometimes accidents happen.
And they can turn out to be the best thing that ever happened to you.

Lots of people have babies and continue to go to school, work, whatever.
But it should be welcomed by both of them.
Otherwise I think there could be trouble down the line.

[blizz]

I don't think there should even be a question. They're dumbasses for not being more careful...and if they were and it happened anyways, then it's supposed to happen. In either case...they should have it. Abortions can cause long term physical and emotional damage. It would go on to haunt them forever. Most pregnancies are blessings and should be treated as such. They may never get another chance. I know it throws their plans off...but too bad...suck it up and move on.

[bendmz]

NO.......
if he is this quick to terminate a new life, imagine how quick he will terminate their relationship when life's UNEXPECTED turns come their way again.
This man is not worth the time of day.......

[j-6]

At least he says what he thinks rather than some lame 'whatever you think is best' excuse. You're not automatically a candidate for a break up because you say something unpopular or uncomfortable in the cause of honesty and open communication. She doesn't know if she wants to keep it anyway so it's not like she's the pro-life poster child and he's the devil incarnate for saying something that's obviously on both of their minds.

I'd think that if they can get through this, whether she chooses abortion or parenthood, they can get through anything. Of course, if she aborts because of him (or her fears that if she has the child, he will resent her and/or the baby) and not as a mutual decision they make as a couple, all bets are off.

Good luck, nameless Houstonian college couple.

[THE SIXTH MAN]

Damn what a punk. How the hell are you asking a women to be your fiancee and then when she comes up pregnant you tell her to get an abortion? Its not his body so he really shouldn't have much say. If he didn't want a baby then he should have practiced safe sex. I mean its not like they're teenagers or something, they're adults. They should now better. And from what I've heard abortions are extremely hard on women both physically and emotionally. The ONLY time I see abortion even remotely understandable is when its a rape victim. But if he really loved her then he'd be happy. Not only is a baby a gift, but also a symbol of a a couples love for one another.

As for the question. Its 50/50. It all depends on how their situation is resolved. But yeah they do have a chance.

[Duff McCartney]

I think it can survive this but I also can see things from his point of view. I think that if a man doesn't feel he can be a father...then the woman should have an abortion. It's better for him to actually be ready than for him to grow up resentful about being a dad.

I think the relationship can survive if they are both strong...but I can understand why he is asking for it. I would too.

[curtismedellin]

they both need to move on....fuckin' waste of time trying to fix something that will always be used as ammuntion against her.


I speak from experience

[Borosai]

A relationship can survive this situation, but only if both people involved are in agreement (this is my opinion, of course). Compromises are necessary in relationships, but this is not an ordinary case. If either one feels obligated to choose one of the alternatives (abortion or parenthood), it will most likely cause serious problems later on (resentment comes to mind).

They need to sit down and talk. Personally, I would rather sacrifice school and future plans before terminating the life of my unborn child. I'm not a father, but I am an uncle - and like others have said, having children is a blessing. But they might view things differently, and that's fine - as long as they agree with each other.

Good luck to them.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Honestly, they don't sound very smart. If they didn't have plans to have kids in the near future and have discussed it, why the fuck didn't they discuss the possibility of an unexpected pregnancy?

Are they morons?

Destined for failure, IMO.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Damn what a punk. How the hell are you asking a women to be your fiancee and then when she comes up pregnant you tell her to get an abortion? Its not his body so he really shouldn't have much say. If he didn't want a baby then he should have practiced safe sex. I mean its not like they're teenagers or something, they're adults. They should now better. And from what I've heard abortions are extremely hard on women both physically and emotionally. The ONLY time I see abortion even remotely understandable is when its a rape victim. But if he really loved her then he'd be happy. Not only is a baby a gift, but also a symbol of a a couples love for one another.

As for the question. Its 50/50. It all depends on how their situation is resolved. But yeah they do have a chance.
oh give us a fucking break! Its not his body, so he shouldn't have a say? Fine, then if men don't have a say on weather or not to abort, they shouldn't be forced to pay child support huh? Its not that fucking simple.

Basically it boils down to wether you believe abortion is a viable option. Sixth Man over here obviously doesn't. Personally, I think its something both parents should discuss and make an informed, well thought out decision about what is in both their best interests.

In the end its a tricky question to ask on a message board. You'll always get righteous idiots trying to impose their beliefs on you. In the end, the right choice is something that your friends are going to have to come up with on their own.

Having said that, if the dude gave your friend an ultimatum, then yes, he is a fucking douche! He's not considering her feelings on this, which is bullshit.

[Fillmoe]

hes a bitch..... i hope someones shoots him dead for forcing a woman to make that kind of decision....

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

A relationship can survive this situation, but only if both people involved are in agreement (this is my opinion, of course). Compromises are necessary in relationships, but this is not an ordinary case. If either one feels obligated to choose one of the alternatives (abortion or parenthood), it will most likely cause serious problems later on (resentment comes to mind).

Good luck to them.

Absolutely agree. The guy did the wrong thing in telling her what to do - that is a decision that they should be making together, neither side should be commanding the other.

Any couple that are serious about each other should discuss pregnancy ASAP after they know they are serious about a future IMHO. It's important to know where you each stand on pregnancy/abortion/etc. before this kind of thing arises.

[E20]

Terminate the baby. You could end up losing owning a house, a car, and being a lawyer. Single-celled organisms come and go, the faster the termination, the faster it is from being considered a sentient being/human.

[AFBlue]

I think this question is entirely dependent on the people involved.

Could my wife and I have handled this situation had it occured when we were engaged and I was about to be sent off on my job....absolutely, without any heistation. I wouldn't imagine that to be the best situation for having a child, but the two most important things would shine through in that moment....love for eachother and respect for life.

However, as I said at the top, it is entirely dependent on the two individuals. I would expect a great deal of resentment by either party for whatever decision is made, unless they can come to an agreement of what is more important.

If I were her, I'd have the kid and bank on "daddy" falling in love. If his heart is in the right place, he'll come around.

[AFBlue]

Terminate the baby. You could end up losing owning a house, a car, and being a lawyer. Single-celled organisms come and go, the faster the termination, the faster it is from being considered a sentient being/human.

I hope you're...

a) a troll

b) a kid with no significant relationship or understanding of true responsibility

c) kidding

or

d) all of the above

[easjer]

Any couple that are serious about each other should discuss pregnancy ASAP after they know they are serious about a future IMHO. It's important to know where you each stand on pregnancy/abortion/etc. before this kind of thing arises.

Well, I think the problem is that those opinions can change when abstract situations are staring you in the face and the reality is that this is happening to you. I think it's easy to say you would never have a baby if you weren't financially prepared until you see two pink lines and realize that your baby is growing inside you, and I think it's easy to say that you could never have an abortion until you realize you have no possible means for caring for a child because you cannot possibly pay for both rent and daycare.

I have no idea what is going to happen - and frankly, she is still so early (just 4 weeks) that there is still a very high risk of miscarriage. Thanks for the good thoughts for them.

[E20]

I hope you're...

a) a troll

b) a kid with no significant relationship or understanding of true responsibility

c) kidding

or

d) all of the above
:lol My e-self falls into all three of the catogeries. Well, let me ask a serious question: When did she become pregnant and how long has it been since then.

IMHO if it's really early in the pregenancy then there should be no moral guilt, because it's isn't even considered human, there are no major organ developing etc..., if there is moral guilt in that, then there should be guilt in the morning after pill and other contraceptives.

[easjer]

I think E20 was being sarcastic, since the things mentioned in the first post in regards to my friend's fiance were materially based. I could be wrong.

[Shelly]

They can survive. I got pregnant just as my husband was starting med school. In San Francisco, which y'all know is $$$. That's when I started telecommuting, but what I made was peanuts for the cost of living there. My son was not planned at the time (we had already been married 2.5 years). Like Ducan228 said, no matter how you plan, you're never ready.

It was very tough at times and we even had another kid during med school years, but we pulled through and I wouldn't have changed a thing.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Well, I think the problem is that those opinions can change when abstract situations are staring you in the face and the reality is that this is happening to you. I think it's easy to say you would never have a baby if you weren't financially prepared until you see two pink lines and realize that your baby is growing inside you, and I think it's easy to say that you could never have an abortion until you realize you have no possible means for caring for a child because you cannot possibly pay for both rent and daycare.

I have no idea what is going to happen - and frankly, she is still so early (just 4 weeks) that there is still a very high risk of miscarriage. Thanks for the good thoughts for them.

Yeah, attitudes to things do change when they actually occur, but if you've had the conversation at least you have a starting point. He made a big mistake in telling her to terminate - that's just a horrible thing to say to a woman and she may resent him for it regardless of her decision.

Good luck to them, glad I'm not in their situation.

On an abstract level, isn't this a sign of how materially focussed we have become (to a large extent out of necessity)? It has become so expensive to live, let alone raise kids, that people have to base their important life decisions almost entirely on finances, although in her case it's also about career. if they didn't have financial pressure, this would be a much easier decision, but because they have to worry about money too, it could destroy their relationship.

[mrsmaalox]

Tough situation. The first thing she needs to do is ask him what happens if she decides not to terminate and go from there. Really they already decided to have kids, so now the schedule is just altered. And if he can't handle a major schedule change now, can he in 3 years? What's going to be the reason then? Well we need to pay off the car,etc. They are fooling themselves if they think there will ever be a perfect time.
I personally would feel very hurt and betrayed if the man I loved, the man who wanted to be part of my life, good or bad, didn't just say "Hey, we love each other and we can make it work. Everything's gonna be okay." I don't think I could stay with him. Also I don't believe he should stick around out of a feeling of obligation to her or the kid. Kids always figure that kind of thing out and it's just not fair to anyone involved.

[Shelly]

On an abstract level, isn't this a sign of how materially focussed we have become (to a large extent out of necessity)? It has become so expensive to live, let alone raise kids, that people have to base their important life decisions almost entirely on finances, although in her case it's also about career. if they didn't have financial pressure, this would be a much easier decision, but because they have to worry about money too, it could destroy their relationship.

It was a big financial strain on us. My husband's school was private and we had to take out student loans to pay for that and survive. Our rent was like $1000/mo for an okay place and this was in 92-96, so Lord know what it would be like now. Obviously, my husband wasn't working during this time.

It can be done.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

:lol My e-self falls into all three of the catogeries. Well, let me ask a serious question: When did she become pregnant and how long has it been since then.

IMHO if it's really early in the pregenancy then there should be no moral guilt, because it's isn't even considered human, there are no major organ developing etc..., if there is moral guilt in that, then there should be guilt in the morning after pill and other contraceptives.

Anti-abortionists will tell you that a foetus is human from the moment it is conceived, so it all depends on your beliefs. They will also tell you that the morning after pill is evil, although I don't agree. And the foreign policy of your federal government is predicated on no contraception (the US will not fund sex ed programs that advocate condom use, or use of any other contraceptives), so they obviously have a moral problem with it, although I think that denying people sex education and condoms on the basis of religious beliefs is far more evil than any contraceptive ever could be.

Unfortunately, the definition of "what is a human being" is a conundrum that philosophy and science have struggled with for the last 500 years and there is no universal answer.

[easjer]

Yeah, attitudes to things do change when they actually occur, but if you've had the conversation at least you have a starting point. He made a big mistake in telling her to terminate - that's just a horrible thing to say to a woman and she may resent him for it regardless of her decision.

Good luck to them, glad I'm not in their situation.

On an abstract level, isn't this a sign of how materially focussed we have become (to a large extent out of necessity)? It has become so expensive to live, let alone raise kids, that people have to base their important life decisions almost entirely on finances, although in her case it's also about career. if they didn't have financial pressure, this would be a much easier decision, but because they have to worry about money too, it could destroy their relationship.

That right there is why we had to push off trying to start our family for at least a year. Hard and painful decision to make, but ultimately the right one, because when we laid it out, we simply could not afford everything when you factored in daycare and monthly insurance premiums. I mean, you don't have to buy $1200 cribs and designer clothes and you can save money using cloth diapers and breastfeeding - but damn, kids are expensive.

[AFBlue]

On an abstract level, isn't this a sign of how materially focussed we have become (to a large extent out of necessity)? It has become so expensive to live, let alone raise kids, that people have to base their important life decisions almost entirely on finances, although in her case it's also about career. if they didn't have financial pressure, this would be a much easier decision, but because they have to worry about money too, it could destroy their relationship.

"Financial pressure" as you put it is almost entirely self-imposed.

What I mean to say is that there are very few basic needs that are required in life and that the decisions we make for things beyond those needs are entirely up to us.

For example....

A military member making $30K, but driving a used car and living on base, has the "financial stability" to support at least one child...and comfortably.

On the other hand, a doctor making $200K, but driving a Maserati and living in Beverly Hills, barely has the "financial stability" to support himself.

Bottom Line: Our "lifestyle" is almost entirely of our choosing.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

It was a big financial strain on us. My husband's school was private and we had to take out student loans to pay for that and survive. Our rent was like $1000/mo for an okay place and this was in 92-96, so Lord know what it would be like now. Obviously, my husband wasn't working during this time.

It can be done.

Yeah, just read your post. I guess this is a true test of the strength of a relationship. You guys obviously passed with flying colours! :)

[E20]

Unfortunately, the definition of "what is a human being" is a conundrum that philosophy and science have struggled with for the last 500 years and there is no universal answer.
Everybody has their own personal defintion. IMO The best way to do is lay out all the facts and form your own belief/opnion that you feel satisfied with. (About fetus's / when is it actually human)

[duncan228]

... but damn, kids are expensive.

For many, many years.
And as they grow the expenses grow.

And they're worth every penny and every sacrifice to make it work.

[easjer]

"Financial pressure" as you put it is almost entirely self-imposed.

What I mean to say is that there are very few basic needs that are required in life and that the decisions we make for things beyond those needs are entirely up to us.

For example....

A military member making $30K, but driving a used car and living on base, has the "financial stability" to support at least one child...and comfortably.

On the other hand, a doctor making $200K, but driving a Maserati and living in Beverly Hills, barely has the "financial stability" to support himself.

Bottom Line: Our "lifestyle" is almost entirely of our choosing.

I think this is true to an extent. Obviously, there are things we like in our life that we weren't willing to exchange in order to have a baby last year. One example might be cable television. Not a necessity, but important enough to us to balance with our desire for children.

But factor in something like daycare - I have friends who have to pay over $1600 a month for daycare (nearly twice my mortgage payment) - because of the area of the country they live in. But because of the money inflow-outflow in their families and how the insurance was divided, they truly could not afford to have children - they couldn't afford for both to work or one to stay home.

But then, I suppose the argument could be made that being a teacher in a HCOL is their choice, and that they could move to a lower col area. But that's not always feasible either.

Damn, life is always so fucking complicated.

[Shelly]

For many, many years.
And as they grow the expenses grow.

And they're worth every penny and every sacrifice to make it work.

Until they become teenagers! :lol Then you start wondering why you ever became a mother!!

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

"Financial pressure" as you put it is almost entirely self-imposed.

What I mean to say is that there are very few basic needs that are required in life and that the decisions we make for things beyond those needs are entirely up to us.

For example....

A military member making $30K, but driving a used car and living on base, has the "financial stability" to support at least one child...and comfortably.

On the other hand, a doctor making $200K, but driving a Maserati and living in Beverly Hills, barely has the "financial stability" to support himself.

Bottom Line: Our "lifestyle" is almost entirely of our choosing.

Tony, I utterly agree with you, and I wish more people saw it that way. I live a wonderful lifestyle that costs me very little because I am not really a consumer of much beyond food. My budget is about $15,000 a year including all bills, food etc etc. But so many people see luxuries as "needs" today.

I guess what I meant is that today people will often choose material comfort first and want everything else (such as when they plan to have kids) to fit with that... in this case, they have a tough choice to make because the timing is not to their schedule, but if they want each other and the child enough they could certainly do it, just as Shelly and her hubby did.

[duncan228]

Until they become teenagers! :lol Then you start wondering why you ever became a mother!!

My youngest turned 13 last week.
My oldest will be 18 next month.
Two teenagers under my roof at once.

There are days I do wonder. :lmao

[easjer]

Tony, I utterly agree with you, and I wish more people saw it that way. I live a wonderful lifestyle that costs me very little because I am not really a consumer of much beyond food. My budget is about $15,000 a year including all bills, food etc etc. But so many people see luxuries as "needs" today.

I guess what I meant is that today people will often choose material comfort first and want everything else (such as when they plan to have kids) to fit with that... in this case, they have a tough choice to make because the timing is not to their schedule, but if they want each other and the child enough they could certainly do it, just as Shelly and her hubby did.


And we are back to the original question. I have no doubt that if they made the effort, they could do as Shelly and many others have done and make do.

But can a relationship survive when one person doesn't want to be in the situation they are in? Can it survive his asking her to get an abortion? Or will there always be lingering doubts and resentments and fears?

I suppose, as previously mentioned, it comes down to communication and honesty and trust.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Everybody has their own personal defintion. IMO The best way to do is lay out all the facts and form your own belief/opnion that you feel satisfied with. (About fetus's / when is it actually human)

Sure, I agree, but you said "...if it's really early in the pregenancy then there should be no moral guilt, because it's isn't even considered human", and I was just pointing out that many people would disagree with you that a foetus isn't human. Personally, I have no problem with abortion, but many people do primarily because they believe a foetus is a human being...

...and this is territory we were trying to avoid... :lol

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

And we are back to the original question. I have no doubt that if they made the effort, they could do as Shelly and many others have done and make do.

But can a relationship survive when one person doesn't want to be in the situation they are in? Can it survive his asking her to get an abortion? Or will there always be lingering doubts and resentments and fears?

I suppose, as previously mentioned, it comes down to communication and honesty and trust.

Yes, we have come full circle, loops within loops within loops!

And you nailed it - honesty, trust, communication. Good luck to them.

[easjer]

Sure, I agree, but you said "...if it's really early in the pregenancy then there should be no moral guilt, because it's isn't even considered human", and I was just pointing out that many people would disagree with you that a foetus isn't human. Personally, I have no problem with abortion, but many people do primarily because they believe a foetus is a human being...

...and this is territory we were trying to avoid... :lol

Eh, argue away, you just won't get anywhere with it. There is no legitimate way to answer the question of when life begins or is worth something, because it's about personal belief, and legally (and to some extent, morally) you cannot impose your beliefs on someone else, when it involves their bodies and their lives.

I became pro-choice in a very roundabout method, as you might divine from the above.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Eh, argue away, you just won't get anywhere with it. There is no legitimate way to answer the question of when life begins or is worth something, because it's about personal belief, and legally (and to some extent, morally) you cannot impose your beliefs on someone else, when it involves their bodies and their lives.

I became pro-choice in a very roundabout method, as you might divine from the above.

And E20 made the same comment that it's an utterly personal decision. I agree. I just had to point out the emboldened bit in what he said because someone could front him over that if he says it to the wrong person. He said it as if it were an objective fact, not an assumption on his part and a part of his personal opinion.

[Shelly]

My youngest turned 13 last week.
My oldest will be 18 next month.
Two teenagers under my roof at once.

There are days I do wonder. :lmao

15 next month and 12.

There are days I want to drink my breakfast :drunk

Back to the original question...I'm sure the "OMG, how did this happen" factor went into overdrive at first, so after it's fully sunk in, they need to sit down and figure out what to do. But if she's always going to resent that fact that he asked her to terminate...whether she does or not...then no, they will not survive.

When are they supposed to get married?

[AFBlue]

I think this is true to an extent. Obviously, there are things we like in our life that we weren't willing to exchange in order to have a baby last year. One example might be cable television. Not a necessity, but important enough to us to balance with our desire for children.



Oh, don't get me wrong...I'm not saying that people should forfeit everything outside of the "Needs" category and have a bunch of babies. Nor am I saying that people, including you, should feel bad for making trade-offs that prevent them from having and raising a child.

I'm just saying that if they wanted to make trade-offs in favor of having a child, for the most part they could.

For your situation (holding off for a year), it's obvious that you and your significant other discussed the situation (step #1) and that you agreed what would be the ideal situation. I think you've obviously handled the situation well. Your friend with the issue is another story...and I wish her the best with her decision.

[easjer]

15 next month and 12.

There are days I want to drink my breakfast :drunk

Back to the original question...I'm sure the "OMG, how did this happen" factor went into overdrive at first, so after it's fully sunk in, they need to sit down and figure out what to do. But if she's always going to resent that fact that he asked her to terminate...whether she does or not...then no, they will not survive.

When are they supposed to get married?

June.

They've been together for . . . I can't remember how long. Living together for at least 3 years.

I don't know if she'll always resent it or not. I know she resents it at this moment, because it puts an enormous pressure on her. I don't think she'd ever for a moment considered termination. Certainly her conversations with me were of the shocked OMG, how the fuck did this happen? variety, with references to how she would have to put off law school for at least a year (her school is fall admission only, and she'd be giving birth around the same time school started). So I think the same shock factor that prompted him to ask is the same shock she feels about being asked, if that makes sense.

[AFBlue]

And we are back to the original question. I have no doubt that if they made the effort, they could do as Shelly and many others have done and make do.

But can a relationship survive when one person doesn't want to be in the situation they are in? Can it survive his asking her to get an abortion? Or will there always be lingering doubts and resentments and fears?

I suppose, as previously mentioned, it comes down to communication and honesty and trust.

Love is a pretty big one that you forgot.

You can get through ALOT of shit with love.

About this situation, I think she should be a little selfish and do what she feels is right for her.

If that means she'd have the baby, then I would hope that this guy embraces the role of being a father and that they work through whatever financial hiccups may come without him throwing the "lawyer" thing in her face.

[Shelly]

June.

They've been together for . . . I can't remember how long. Living together for at least 3 years.

I don't know if she'll always resent it or not. I know she resents it at this moment, because it puts an enormous pressure on her. I don't think she'd ever for a moment considered termination. Certainly her conversations with me were of the shocked OMG, how the fuck did this happen? variety, with references to how she would have to put off law school for at least a year (her school is fall admission only, and she'd be giving birth around the same time school started). So I think the same shock factor that prompted him to ask is the same shock she feels about being asked, if that makes sense.

Someone close to me, married at the time, terminated a pregnancy soon after the second child was born (first two are only 14 months apart). She did end up having another child a few years later, but that was the beginning of the end for them. Other situations factored into the divorce. However, even though it was a mutual decision, it always weighed heavily on her mind.

[Shelly]

Of course, every situation is different.

[Sapphire]

Survive? Yes.

Thrive? No.

That resentment will grow like a cancer and one day it will kill the marriage. But the days leading up to the death will be days full of hurt and anger. This is not a happy situation at all, obviously. It's so sad for the children conceived this way--when the two people who created said child are not completely overjoyed at what they've done there will always be pain. Sure, she can take the chance that "Daddy" will fall in love with the child once it comes, but, wow, that's a huge chance to take, IMO.

Me? I would dump the guy, forgo law school for now, have the baby, and get on with it. He screwed up, but better to find out now that he's a heartless SOB. Heartless, you may ask? Yes, anyone who loves their things more than they love their kids is, to me, heartless. This kid is interfering in his plans to acquire more things. Bottom line.

[easjer]

Oh, don't get me wrong...I'm not saying that people should forfeit everything outside of the "Needs" category and have a bunch of babies. Nor am I saying that people, including you, should feel bad for making trade-offs that prevent them from having and raising a child.

I'm just saying that if they wanted to make trade-offs in favor of having a child, for the most part they could.

For your situation (holding off for a year), it's obvious that you and your significant other discussed the situation (step #1) and that you agreed what would be the ideal situation. I think you've obviously handled the situation well. Your friend with the issue is another story...and I wish her the best with her decision.

No, I understand. I mean to say something more and sidetracked myself. :lol I was going to add that if it is necessary, things can frequently be done to better prepare financially for children or adapt. If we found out I was pregnant tomorrow, well, we'd cancel the cable and internet and put that money towards paying off the debt and Jason would probably get a second job. We just didn't want to live that way, and didn't want that stress on our relationship or in our lives.

Of course, good financial situation always has to be balanced against things like biological clocks and emotional readiness. What is the point of waiting for the perfect financial situation if it means you wait until you are in your late 30's (for women) and end up unable to get pregnant and have a harder time adopting because you are outside ideal adoption ranges?

I think you are totally right about people not seeing where they can cut back and afford children, if not the lifestyle they would prefer. I remember one woman from the internets (baby website) that was complaining about how she couldn't afford kids and what was she going to do? and she was completely aghast when several of us suggested that they sell the extra car, pay off their debt, cancel their extensive cable package or cut back to basic, breastfeed (I particularly remember her aversion to b/fing - not to start any debates here on it - because she liked her perky boobs and b/fing would ruin them), and cloth diaper. She wanted to know where she could get foodstamps instead. Frustrating, to say the least.

[AFBlue]

But factor in something like daycare - I have friends who have to pay over $1600 a month for daycare (nearly twice my mortgage payment) - because of the area of the country they live in. But because of the money inflow-outflow in their families and how the insurance was divided, they truly could not afford to have children - they couldn't afford for both to work or one to stay home.

But then, I suppose the argument could be made that being a teacher in a HCOL is their choice, and that they could move to a lower col area. But that's not always feasible either.

Damn, life is always so fucking complicated.

I understand that there are some unavoidable costs that must be incurred when you have a child, but the scenario above begs MANY questions...

What type of house did they live in? Cars did they drive? Jobs did they have? Bills/Debt? Was there family around (daycare substitute)?

These are just a bunch of rhetorical questions and more "food for thought" than anything....but I guess what I'm getting to is that there were probably some non-essential "must haves" that prevented them from making the decision and not just the outragous cost of daycare.

[spurster]

The two most important things to learn in life is that "Life is not fair." and "Fantasy is not reality." Sure, you can make great plans, but what do you do when they fail? You have to be prepared for contingencies, and if this relationship can't handle that, then, yes, it is doomed.

[easjer]

Love is a pretty big one that you forgot.

You can get through ALOT of shit with love.


True, but in my experience, love isn't enough without the other things - respect, trust, honesty, communication. If trust and communication are gone, love is a thin bandaid on a gaping wound.

If the love is strong enough to bridge the gap and reopen communication. . . then I'd guess trust can be rebuilt and respect will come in time again, and they can make it through anything.

It's hard to remember that you love and are loved when you can't feel it - when sadness or anger are blocking it out. That's why the other things are important.

[AFBlue]

No, I understand. I mean to say something more and sidetracked myself. :lol I was going to add that if it is necessary, things can frequently be done to better prepare financially for children or adapt. If we found out I was pregnant tomorrow, well, we'd cancel the cable and internet and put that money towards paying off the debt and Jason would probably get a second job. We just didn't want to live that way, and didn't want that stress on our relationship or in our lives.

Fortunately, you two are agreeable to making the sacrafices necessary if confronted with having to make this decision. And presumably, you've talked about it.

Again, this is apparently not the situation for the two involved. It's pretty apparent what the guy is focused on at the moment, but the girl needs to sit down and really think what she wants to do, then she needs to talk it over with this guy.

It sounds as if she has aspirations of her own that would prevent her from having the child, but I would really discourage her from making the decision based on his desire. As I said before, IMO this is one of those times that she needs to be selfish, make the decision she feels is right, and hope that he jives with the decision.

[easjer]

I understand that there are some unavoidable costs that must be incurred when you have a child, but the scenario above begs MANY questions...

What type of house did they live in? Cars did they drive? Jobs did they have? Bills/Debt? Was there family around (daycare substitute)?

These are just a bunch of rhetorical questions and more "food for thought" than anything....but I guess what I'm getting to is that there were probably some non-essential "must haves" that prevented them from making the decision and not just the outragous cost of daycare.

Oh, I don't know all the financial details. I know that it boiled down to working would cost them 80% of her salary after taxes and that if she didn't work, it would add $400 a month in insurance costs to their bills and they could not afford that on his salary alone. I'm sure that if they hadn't ended up moving back to Nebraska, they would have looked more closely into her finding part-time work (harder to do for teachers) to offset costs, or finding less-expensive in home daycare or nanny-sharing or something. If absolutely necessary, they could have moved into a smaller apartment, but that is rather a temporary solution.

[leemajors]

no, it will always invariably resurface later. my wife got pregnant again 6 months after our first child was born, and basically made the decision to abort. i supported her, but i continually feel guilty about it. catholic upbringing can bring the pain, even if you are no longer a practicing one.

[Borosai]

True, but in my experience, love isn't enough without the other things - respect, trust, honesty, communication. If trust and communication are gone, love is a thin bandaid on a gaping wound.

If the love is strong enough to bridge the gap and reopen communication. . . then I'd guess trust can be rebuilt and respect will come in time again, and they can make it through anything.

It's hard to remember that you love and are loved when you can't feel it - when sadness or anger are blocking it out. That's why the other things are important.

So true.

[AFBlue]

Oh, I don't know all the financial details. I know that it boiled down to working would cost them 80% of her salary after taxes and that if she didn't work, it would add $400 a month in insurance costs to their bills and they could not afford that on his salary alone. I'm sure that if they hadn't ended up moving back to Nebraska, they would have looked more closely into her finding part-time work (harder to do for teachers) to offset costs, or finding less-expensive in home daycare or nanny-sharing or something. If absolutely necessary, they could have moved into a smaller apartment, but that is rather a temporary solution.

Well I gotta take the dog out to pee and then head to bed. Yep, the dog that I got my wife in lieu of a baby because it's just not the right time or place to have a kid and we're holding off for a bit.... :lol

Still, if we were to get pregnant tomorrow, I have no doubt of what we would do....having already discussed it and prepared accordingly (lots of $$$ saved up from a second income).

Just thought you should know that I too make decisions that affect having a baby.

[AFBlue]

True, but in my experience, love isn't enough without the other things - respect, trust, honesty, communication. If trust and communication are gone, love is a thin bandaid on a gaping wound.

If the love is strong enough to bridge the gap and reopen communication. . . then I'd guess trust can be rebuilt and respect will come in time again, and they can make it through anything.

It's hard to remember that you love and are loved when you can't feel it - when sadness or anger are blocking it out. That's why the other things are important.

I didn't mean to suggest that love and those other things were mutually exclusive.

Just that love between two people is the foundation on which relationships are built and maintained...even in hard times.

I have no disagreement that honesty, trust, and open communication are necessary elements to a successful relationship.

[easjer]

Well I gotta take the dog out to pee and then head to bed. Yep, the dog that I got my wife in lieu of a baby because it's just not the right time or place to have a kid and we're holding off for a bit.... :lol

Still, if we were to get pregnant tomorrow, I have no doubt of what we would do....having already discussed it and prepared accordingly (lots of $$$ saved up from a second income).

Just thought you should know that I too make decisions that affect having a baby.


It's easier when you aren't alone, surely. In real life - I'm surrounded by babies. Had 9 babies born among my friends and family this year!

And we have one of those dogs too. Didn't get it with the intention of being in lieu of baby or for training, but he's been both. My hope is that a baby won't try to eat his own tail (and really, that he doesn't have one) or bark at the cat. :lol

[easjer]

I didn't mean to suggest that love and those other things were mutually exclusive.

Just that love between two people is the foundation on which relationships are built and maintained...even in hard times.

I have no disagreement that honesty, trust, and open communication are necessary elements to a successful relationship.


I think we agree on a lot of things, Tony. Have a good night.

[AFBlue]

It's easier when you aren't alone, surely. In real life - I'm surrounded by babies. Had 9 babies born among my friends and family this year!

And we have one of those dogs too. Didn't get it with the intention of being in lieu of baby or for training, but he's been both. My hope is that a baby won't try to eat his own tail (and really, that he doesn't have one) or bark at the cat. :lol

My wife has been wanting a dog since we moved away from home b/c of my job. I finally conceded, and I have to be honest that it was partially due to the fact that we had decided to hold off on trying, but that a baby was something we still both wanted.

My wife sees alot of babies and pregnant women too. Seems like every woman she knows either gets pregnant within 2 days of trying or has some disturbing story about endless in-vitro treatments and all kinds of issues. I can only hope our story is more like the former...

My hope is that a baby's teeth don't grow in too quickly or that he/she won't enjoy teething on my hands, socks, or shoes... :lol

[AFBlue]

I think we agree on a lot of things, Tony. Have a good night.

Night...

And tell your friend that this guy on the "internets" thinks she should ultimately make the decision she feels is best for her (it's okay to be selfish on this one).

I'm sure she'll consider the source, but hey...I think it's pretty good advice.

[easjer]

My wife has been wanting a dog since we moved away from home b/c of my job. I finally conceded, and I have to be honest that it was partially due to the fact that we had decided to hold off on trying, but that a baby was something we still both wanted.

My wife sees alot of babies and pregnant women too. Seems like every woman she knows either gets pregnant within 2 days of trying or has some disturbing story about endless in-vitro treatments and all kinds of issues. I can only hope our story is more like the former...

My hope is that a baby's teeth don't grow in too quickly or that he/she won't enjoy teething on my hands, socks, or shoes... :lol


If she hasn't already, your wife might consider reading Taking Charge of Your Fertility by Toni Wesschler (yeah, double check the spelling of author's name). It explains (very well, very understandable) about charting fertility signs to achieve or avoid pregnancy. Charting is very useful for getting an overall grasp of fertility and fertile periods and when you are ovulating. It can also tell you if you are ovulating and help diagnose some other potential fertility issues before you pay a doctor good money on expensive and invasive fertility tests.

Charting may not be ideal for her (I know lots of women who feel stressed out by it or feel it's too clinical), but I love it. I learned so much more about my body that I didn't know. We've successfully used charting to avoid pregnancy for five years - and it's easy to switch to trying to achieve pregnancy - no time wasted regulating off hormones.

[AFBlue]

If she hasn't already, your wife might consider reading Taking Charge of Your Fertility by Toni Wesschler (yeah, double check the spelling of author's name). It explains (very well, very understandable) about charting fertility signs to achieve or avoid pregnancy. Charting is very useful for getting an overall grasp of fertility and fertile periods and when you are ovulating. It can also tell you if you are ovulating and help diagnose some other potential fertility issues before you pay a doctor good money on expensive and invasive fertility tests.

Charting may not be ideal for her (I know lots of women who feel stressed out by it or feel it's too clinical), but I love it. I learned so much more about my body that I didn't know. We've successfully used charting to avoid pregnancy for five years - and it's easy to switch to trying to achieve pregnancy - no time wasted regulating off hormones.

Don't have the book, but we know all about the charting and methods to get/avoid being pregnant. Oh and we've already checked on the fertility thing (ovulation/sperm count), mostly because I have unbelievably good/cheap medical insurance... :tu

I don't perceive any issues when we want it to happen <<knocking on wood>>, but thanks for the advice.

Okay, I think I just heard my name being called....time for bed. After all, it is 2 AM here in Georgia.

Thanks again.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Me? I would dump the guy, forgo law school for now, have the baby, and get on with it. He screwed up, but better to find out now that he's a heartless SOB. Heartless, you may ask? Yes, anyone who loves their things more than they love their kids is, to me, heartless. This kid is interfering in his plans to acquire more things. Bottom line.


What if she agreed to not have children at all costs until the set date?

Is it out of the realm of possibility that she is the one changing the rules of their agreement?

There never is a clear-cut bottom line. Bottom line.

[blizz]

You'll always get righteous idiots trying to impose their beliefs on you.
kinda like what you're doing?

[Nbadan]

I think Sapphire was commenting on his basically telling her to abort the kid without them talking about the pregnancy rationally together first and how it would affect their future plans ...I'm never in favor of a abortion when the couple are in a loving relationship that they both think will last, especially because the main reason against having the baby is because it would set them back financially some...now if they already had 3 kids and were barely making it as it is, circumstances might be different....but ultimately, If you believe in God, then you gotta believe that he has a purpose for everything...one thing is for sure though, this will test their relationship.....

[blizz]

Yep, the dog that I got my wife in lieu of a baby because it's just not the right time or place to have a kid and we're holding off for a bit.... :lol


I was in the same boat. My wife and I have been together for over 12 years...married for just under 2. We JUST got pregnant. Why? Because we weren't ready..and guess what? We were responsible and careful adults who took that seriously and took every precaution so that we would NOT get pregnant. Once we were ready to, we did. I regret waiting so long...but we're much more stable now and the time is right. I'll say this....with all of the problems we've had so far with this pregnancy...ie the threat of a misscarriage for 4 weeks then a false positive triple screen test...it just kills me to think that someone would voluntarily abort a pregnancy. I'd never wish how those early days felt. Just to let yall know, we have a healthy baby girl coming in less than 2 months and even though it's going to be hard...going to test our patience and wallets...I cannot wait! It's what parents do....they sacrifice for their children.

[THE SIXTH MAN]

oh give us a fucking break! Its not his body, so he shouldn't have a say? Fine, then if men don't have a say on weather or not to abort, they shouldn't be forced to pay child support huh? Its not that fucking simple.

Basically it boils down to wether you believe abortion is a viable option. Sixth Man over here obviously doesn't. Personally, I think its something both parents should discuss and make an informed, well thought out decision about what is in both their best interests.

In the end its a tricky question to ask on a message board. You'll always get righteous idiots trying to impose their beliefs on you. In the end, the right choice is something that your friends are going to have to come up with on their own.

Having said that, if the dude gave your friend an ultimatum, then yes, he is a fucking douche! He's not considering her feelings on this, which is bullshit.
Are you this fucking stupid? Scratch that I already know the answer. And get the fuck out of here thinking you know what I believe in by one fucking post. If the dude didn't want a baby then he shouldn't be fucking her in the first place. And where in my post did I say that abortion wasn't a viable option? Do you know any one personally who has went through an abortion? If you do then you know that it fucks up chicks both emotionally and physically. It's not like some fucking simple operation or something like that. There are some girls who get hysterical during and after the procedure. So if they're both adults and they know better. Then why should they abort? I do believe there are certain instances when abortion is and should be an option. But this is not one of those situations. You have to be a real fucking chump to be fucking a girl ask her to be your wife and then when you find out that she's pregnant tell her what to do all because it's not in the "plans".

By no means well I ever try to impose my beliefs on any one that I don't personally have a connection too, especially on a message board :rolleyes . So get that straight. I simply gave my 2 cents on the subject. I could care less what some random strangers do with their own personal lives. But I am entitled to my opinion. And when looking back at my post I wasn't trying to impose my beliefs on any one, just stating my opinion.

[ploto]

Let me start by saying I am pro-life, so that affects my views- but probably not in the way that people think.

I actually am not as hard on the guy as some people here are because the notion has been placed in the minds of many men that most women are pro-choice, and I think that quite possibly he thought that she was considering an abortion already.

Consider if the story were the other way around- what if she was pregnant and did not think it was in the plans right now and said she was going to get an abortion and he was the one who was broken up about having what he perceived to be his child killed by the woman he loves. People would think that situation was OK because of their pro-choice views and the preceived rights of the woman. Fathers have no legal rights in these cases and that is why I am not as hard on them as some are. She could get an abortion tomorrow- even against his wishes- and no one would care about him.

[xrayzebra]

He will walk if she keeps the baby. If she caves in to his
desires she will regret it somewhere down the line. She will
always wonder how the child would have turned out.
It's a no win situation, unless the marriage occurs and
the child is born.

Sounds like he is like a lot of men these days, he wants his
cake and eat it to. Sex with no consequences, it just doesn't
happen. There are always consequences.

A new home and a car will never replace a family.
If he were half a man he would marry the lady and enjoy his
family, especially if he loves her as much as you say.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

God gave us abortions for a reason. I guess I'm spoiled, but if my chick and I had this problem both of us would be breaking each other's necks trying to get out the door and onward to the clinic. Worry about your own lives. Breeding is not an automatic requirement in a marriage.

[angel_luv]

I have a friend in real life who just confided to me that she is pregnant. This is wildly unplanned, complete accident sort of thing. Her fiance is really, really unhappy about it, because it really screws up their plans for the future (they were getting married in June, had plans to buy a house and a new car, she was supposed to start law school in August, which is when she's due).

In fact, he's asked her terminate the pregnancy.

She's really upset right now. She's unsure about whether or not she wants to have the baby (although she loves kids and really wants to be a mother - they had not planned on children until she passed the bar - over 3 years from now). But she is really upset that he asked her terminate, because she doesn't know what happens if she decides not to.

Without arguing over whether or not you personally believe abortion is a good/viable/necessary/evil/terrible option - do you think a relationship can survive such a thing? It seems very much like a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of thing.


I think the relationship is in trouble because the fiancee doesn't seem equipped to deal with curve balls that life throws.

Things that are unexpected and inconvenient ( although I believe babies are a blessing and should not be considered in that category) are always going to come up.

If all this guy can't adjust and team up to make the best out of situations, he is not going to do well as a husband.

I am really sorry for your friend. I am sure she had envisioned being pregnant as a joyful experience.
I hope she doesn't let this guy dictate her decision making because it doesn't sound like he cares enough about her best interest and desires.

In the guy's defense, he may have reacted badly initially out of stress.
Maybe he will be more supportive in a few days once his head is better together.

[inconvertible]

killing babies for shelfish "life goals not yet achieved" reasons. Is inherently very evil.

DONT DO IT.

[Jimcs50]

Cars, Houses and material things can wait. Either keep the baby or give it up for adoption.

[Sapphire]

What if she agreed to not have children at all costs until the set date?

Is it out of the realm of possibility that she is the one changing the rules of their agreement?

There never is a clear-cut bottom line. Bottom line.
They were having sex, so there is not a 100% guarantee that a baby is not in the realm of possibility. Both of them are grown-ups so I am sure they understood this little tidbit. If she duped him by becoming pregnant on purpose, then she's made a huge mistake. I just feel this relationship is not off to a good start at all, and my prediction is that it's doomed. And I stand by my "bottom line" statement, whatever the circumstances are surrounding the pregnancy. The baby is going to get in his way.

Sounds like Scott Peterson.

[easjer]

I can 100% guarantee that she did not trick him into pregnancy or become pregnant on purpose. I can also guarantee that her fiance would not do anything physically to harm her. I can't guarantee that he would stand by her if she decided to have a baby (though I suspect he would, because I believe he's a fundamentally good guy who got really thrown for a loop), but I can guarantee he wouldn't harm her.

[Sapphire]

That's good to hear. I just thought about Scott Peterson while I was responding. And statistics show that pregnancy is a very dangerous time for women as far as domestic abuse is concerned. I'm glad to know that your friend is not in any danger.

It's a very sad situation, especially when so many couples suffer from infertility. I know your friends want a child in the future, and I would never want them to be denied that joy. My only point is that so many couples would be completely overjoyed to finally be pregnant, and it just sucks to have ANY sadness at all during what should be such a happy time. Life can be so cruel.

[Kori Ellis]

I can 100% guarantee that she did not trick him into pregnancy or become pregnant on purpose. I can also guarantee that her fiance would not do anything physically to harm her. I can't guarantee that he would stand by her if she decided to have a baby (though I suspect he would, because I believe he's a fundamentally good guy who got really thrown for a loop), but I can guarantee he wouldn't harm her.

Sorry, but I don't think you can guarantee any of those things. You might believe they are highly unlikely, but you don't know for sure.

My guess is the guy initially freaked out and jumped right to thinking that she should have an abortion. After they talk about it, if they make a mutual decision (either way), then their relationship can survive fine. If it's not a mutual decison (she gives in and has an abortion to keep him, or he agrees to have a baby even though it's not what he wants), then it will always be a point of problems. And though their relationship may survive, they won't necessarily get passed it.

[whottt]

I think if the guy just flat out told her to terminate it...he's a prick.


It can work out if she doesn't want to be in control of her own life and just wants to put him in charge of it...which, since he obviously gave her no consideration on whether or not to have the abortion...is going to be a bad idea on her part. Then again...some women like that kind of man...I think they think they're strong or something.

It can work out if she let's this guy have control...and if the is that type...then this baby is probably better off aborted(or put up for adoptionl).





The rest of the stuff people are talking about...abortion right or wrong....that's not the issue here. It's about the fact that he just told her to terminate it...he's a dickhead IMO.

[PM5K]

Couple things to add:

First, to those that say he can't handle lifes curvballs, having a kid isn't a curvball, it's getting hit in the head with a fastball, having your car break down is a curvball.

Second, yes they can survive, these types of decisions are made every day and couples get through it.

[Sapphire]

Fast ball, curve ball, knuckle ball, either way. He is a knee-jerk reactor. I bet if you look at his history he reacts in similar ways to the "curve balls" as well. I'm not putting the guy down for that. It's a behavior that he's learned and she is better off discovering that now, rather than later. And like I said before--survive, yes? Thrive and grow, probably not--if there is resentment it will manifest in countless other ways. Yes, people make decisions like this every day, but that doesn't mean their relationships are good.

[ploto]

I wonder though if the story is 100% accurate as to how the conversation went because we are only hearing from one person- one very emotional upset person. It did not sound to me like he just flat out demanded she do this with no regard to her. Didn't the original post say she was considering an abortion herself? So, if she asked what he wanted and that is what he said then why is she so up in arms if she was aready considering it as an option. I did not get the impression that she was jumping for joy and he was discussing something that she is morally opposed to.


I am sorry but women who get pregnant take this option in vast quantities on a daily basis- so where is the claim that they are all unable to handle the curve balls of life. People are claiming this man does not want to take responsibility but look at all the women who seem to think it fine when they do not. Again, I am sorry, but women have the power to keep from getting pregnant, and given that they have to carry the baby they need to take that primary responsibility.

[MannyIsGod]

You really think anyone can possibly answer this question with any shred of validity? I mean seriously? Its funny to see people form opinions on the man based on a story told in 2 paragraphs as though this situation could be explained so simply.

[mrsmaalox]

I wonder though if the story is 100% accurate as to how the conversation went because we are only hearing from one person- one very emotional upset person. It did not sound to me like he just flat out demanded she do this with no regard to her. Didn't the original post say she was considering an abortion herself? So, if she asked what he wanted and that is what he said then why is she so up in arms if she was aready considering it as an option. I did not get the impression that she was jumping for joy and he was discussing something that she is morally opposed to.


I am sorry but women who get pregnant take this option in vast quantities on a daily basis- so where is the claim that they are all unable to handle the curve balls of life. People are claiming this man does not want to take responsibility but look at all the women who seem to think it fine when they do not. Again, I am sorry, but women have the power to keep from getting pregnant, and given that they have to carry the baby they need to take that primary responsibility.

You make several good points. But I have to disagree with the last sentence. If a girl is out playing the field then, yes, she would have to be stupid not to take primary responsibility. But in a committed relationship that is supposed to change. If it doesn't then there is a serious problem that will doom the relationship anyway.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

They were having sex, so there is not a 100% guarantee that a baby is not in the realm of possibility. Both of them are grown-ups so I am sure they understood this little tidbit. If she duped him by becoming pregnant on purpose, then she's made a huge mistake. I just feel this relationship is not off to a good start at all, and my prediction is that it's doomed. And I stand by my "bottom line" statement, whatever the circumstances are surrounding the pregnancy. The baby is going to get in his way.

Sounds like Scott Peterson.

You misunderstood me.

What if they both agreed to have an abortion if she were to become pregnant and now she's changed her mind?

It is possible for a woman to change her mind, you know.

[easjer]

Well, Manny, you almost never have the full story on the internet, yet people form judgments all the time. I was interested in other people's reactions, especially since I can't talk to anyone else about this.

And it's been a very interesting discussion. It's not like I planned to forward the link this thread to her and tell her, hey, this is what lots of random people said about your situation and you so you should take it all to heart!

[Quasar]

I get upset if I think I've forced Jason into eating someplace he didn't want to. I can't imagine how I'd feel about thinking I forced him into fatherhood, you know?

How do you force someone into fatherhood? Did she rape him?

No one was forced into having sex, and there IS a good reason why condoms and pills have a 99.x% chance of preventing pregnancy instead of 100%.

My baby girl was just born 5 weeks ago... and I must say I have been amazed with the whole process ever since day 1 of the pregnancy. At a few weeks old during our first echography session, the baby was already 'swimming' around the uterus and reacting to outside influences (e.g. pushing the scanner 'deeper' to get a better reading). It was only after experiencing this that I really understood the horror of abortion... It really IS a life since day 1!

[BacktoBasics]

It doesn't matter how good a man's plan is. If a woman is involved the plan will surely be redirected to the "long way" of getting shit done. As shallow and trival as most people take relationships these days, I doubt a substantial issue like this is something that will be indicative of surviving the long haul.

[Bigzax]

sad to hear. i hope they keep the kid and push on together!

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

It seems to me that this guy let his fiance know where his heart lies when he asked her to terminate. Your friend may forgive him for asking her to end the pregnancy, but I guarantee you that she will never forget.

In my opinion this is one of those foundation cracking events. Regardless of what these two decide to do about the pregnancy, his reaction to her announcement will forever be etched into their relationship. Now, if she terminates, she'll be haunted by the pregnancy she gave up for the rest of her life, and she always know she did it because of her fiance. If she has the baby he'll forever look back at everything he gave up and sacrificed to make it work.

To be honest, the only thing that can really salvage the relationship would be for him to man up, have a change of heart and support her. Things will undoubtedly be tougher financially, than they had planned, but since when does life go according to plan? Overcoming obstacles together will bind them together. Ending the pregnancy because it is more economically and planning convenient will leave permanent scars.

The ball is really in his court I think. He needs to go and support her and love her, and let her know that his initial reaction was out of fear and panic. If he can screw his head back on straight and think past his own needs this relationship can be salvaged. If they have the baby they'll look back someday and not only have that child as a reflection of their love, but will also have the strength in their relationship in knowing what they overcame to bring her/him into this world and be a family.

But, as I said, it's going to take his being able to get past a feeling that he's giving something up, or losing out, or his 'plans' have been wasted.

[JoeChalupa]

Every relationship is different and where as one relationship may be able to survive such a situation another will not. Some couples can survive adultery while others can not. Personally I don't play the forgiveness card when it comes to adultery. No way.
The only sure way to avoid an unwanted or planned pregnancy is abstinence. I for one would never ask for an abortion. Life has many bumps and curves and they must be dealt with together if you are in a serious relationship. Together we stand, divided we fall.
Good luck.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

How do you force someone into fatherhood? Did she rape him?

No one was forced into having sex, and there IS a good reason why condoms and pills have a 99.x% chance of preventing pregnancy instead of 100%.

My baby girl was just born 5 weeks ago... and I must say I have been amazed with the whole process ever since day 1 of the pregnancy. At a few weeks old during our first echography session, the baby was already 'swimming' around the uterus and reacting to outside influences (e.g. pushing the scanner 'deeper' to get a better reading). It was only after experiencing this that I really understood the horror of abortion... It really IS a life since day 1!
Welcome to a world of differing opinions! You think its a life since day one, other people don't. Its a never ending argument. The point here is the relationship, NOT weather or not she should do the abortion!

[MaNuMaNiAc]

You really think anyone can possibly answer this question with any shred of validity? I mean seriously? Its funny to see people form opinions on the man based on a story told in 2 paragraphs as though this situation could be explained so simply.
I completely second this!

[JoeChalupa]

Well, Manny, you almost never have the full story on the internet, yet people form judgments all the time. I was interested in other people's reactions, especially since I can't talk to anyone else about this.

And it's been a very interesting discussion. It's not like I planned to forward the link this thread to her and tell her, hey, this is what lots of random people said about your situation and you so you should take it all to heart!

Does anyone besides the parties involved ever know the full story? Impossible I say. But it doesn't mean one cannot form an opinion based on what they know or think they know. We all do it almost constantly.

[easjer]

Does anyone besides the parties involved ever know the full story? Impossible I say. But it doesn't mean one cannot form an opinion based on what they know or think they know. We all do it almost constantly.

That's what I was getting at.

[MannyIsGod]

You can always form an opinion and that doesn't mean its not baseless.

[easjer]

You can always form an opinion and that doesn't mean its not baseless.


That's very true. Fair, excellent point.

[JoeChalupa]

You can always form an opinion and that doesn't mean its not baseless.

Then wouldn't that make almost all opinions baseless since only the parties involved really know all the story? But I get what you mean. Good point.

[tlongII]

Terminate the baby. You could end up losing owning a house, a car, and being a lawyer. Single-celled organisms come and go, the faster the termination, the faster it is from being considered a sentient being/human.

I agree.

[ploto]

Do we even know what she wanted to do BEFORE she talked to him? It sounded to me like she was considering this even before he mentioned it. Does she want to have this baby? I have never seen that stated. What if she decided she doesn't want to- or any woman who decides that- will people have the guts to say the same things about them as they have about this man?

[easjer]

She wasn't sure about being a mother, but she had not considered termination prior to his bringing it up. Does that help?

[Cry Havoc]

You really think anyone can possibly answer this question with any shred of validity? I mean seriously? Its funny to see people form opinions on the man based on a story told in 2 paragraphs as though this situation could be explained so simply.

Thirded. It's almost silly.

[Sapphire]

Thirded. It's almost silly.
Why even read the thread then?

[JoeChalupa]

Why even read the thread then?

I second that.

[travis2]

Cars, Houses and material things can wait. Either keep the baby or give it up for adoption.

:tu:tu