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View Full Version : Game Thoughts: Spurs vs. Nuggets Dec. 15



timvp
12-16-2007, 01:28 AM
First off, it was nice to see Tim Duncan back out on the court. It’s easy to take him for granted and forget how much easier he makes the game for everyone around him.

As far as the game, I thought it was a solid showing, especially considering Tony Parker was out with a sprained ankle. It wasn’t a great win because the Nuggets played horrible at times and made it easy for the Spurs, but it was at least nice to get back on the winning track. The Spurs got some good performances from a variety of players and were able to stay undefeated at home.

I wasn’t too impressed with the Nuggets. In the middle two quarters, their defense was pathetic. Offensively, it didn’t appear that they had a plan at all. I’ve seen them play better this season but this certainly was not one of their better outings. Without Kenyon Martin and Nene, Denver was much softer in the middle than usual.

-Tim Duncan’s stats are pretty ugly. He had eight points and five rebounds, while shooting 4-for-10 from the court. However, it didn’t take him long to show why he’s so valuable. Duncan attracts so much attention that the game become much easier for everyone around him. His defense wasn’t great but it was far better than anything the Spurs saw out of a bigman in his absence. Duncan looked relatively healthy even though he was moving painfully slow at times. Hopefully he was just taking extra caution as he worked his way back into action.

-Manu Ginobili looked good at times and bad at times. Most of the good came in the third quarter when he scored all 11 of his points and looked like the Ginobili we’ve come to expect this season. In the other three quarters, Ginobili was 0-for-6 from the field and failed to get to the line. You have to give him credit for his seven assists but overall he seemed out of sync and was forcing the action way too much, which led to a team-high four turnovers. Against the Nuggets specifically, Ginobili really missed having Parker at his side. For one, the Nuggets could put a better defender on him than they usually can because they didn’t have to worry about Jacque Vaughn. Secondly, Ginobili had to spend time defensively on Allen Iverson, which doesn’t happen if Parker is healthy. Overall though, this was a much better outing for Ginobili compared to the last two nightmares.

-Bruce Bowen had his hands full tonight spending time defensively on both Iverson and Carmelo Anthony. On the whole, Bowen did a very good job on whoever he was matched up against. There were a couple of possessions where he was out of position but there’s really no way you complain about his effort.

-Fabricio Oberto had yet another fantastic game. In one of the best games of his career, he had 21 points, 13 rebounds, five assists, one block and no turnovers, while hitting 10-of-11 shots from the field. He really played well in the first half, where he put up a team-high and already season-high 15 points. Oberto played great next to Duncan and his short jumper was as automatic as it’s ever been. Under the radar, Oberto has become a very legitimate NBA center. This nearly flawless outing was just another example of how well he has played this year.

-In a starting role, Michael Finley had one of his best games of the season. He had 21 points, six rebounds, four assists and knocked down 8-of-12 shots from the field and 4-of-5 shots from beyond the three-point line. His plus/minus showed just how well he played as he finished +27, which was far and away the best mark on the team. Finley has had a rollercoaster season but it seems that finally there are more ups than there are downs.

-Jacque Vaughn played much better in his second start of the season. In 34 minutes, he had ten points, six assists and three rebounds. The offense got stagnant at times while he was on the court but overall he played much, much better than he did against the Lakers. His all out hustle was on full display and his defense was quite good.

-Brent Barry was big early on in the game when the Spurs couldn’t make a basket. He came in and helped jumpstart the offense. He finished with 14 points, four rebounds and three assists, as he scored in double figures in back-to-back games for the first time this season. Defensively he wasn’t great but I liked how he stuck his nose in there and competed.

-I thought Darius Washington took a step back in his development tonight. His clock management, especially at the end of quarters and the end of shot clocks, was poor. He had a couple of possessions where he didn’t make the passes he needed to make. In fairness, he is still very raw but this game didn’t make Pop gain any confidence in him. He still has a lot of work to do before he’s capable of playing championship caliber basketball.

-First of all, I hope his ankle injury at the end of the game turns out to be not serious. It looked like he twisted it pretty good. Best wishes to him. But Francisco Elson was horrible. He had a plus/minus of -16 in less than 12 minutes of action. His defense remains clueless while his offense doesn’t help matters. He was going up against his idol Marcus Camby and didn’t do much of anything. Hopefully the ankle injury was Elson’s way of honoring Camby and wasn’t an actual injury that will sideline him.

-Ime Udoka was like the swingman version of Elson tonight. He had a -12 plus/minus in eight minutes of play. He looked out of sync more than usual and wasn’t really helping in any area. Udoka has shown glimpses but remains a project at this point.

-Robert Horry played just six minutes and missed all three of his shots, all from downtown. This was the first game that Horry looked his age. He wasn’t moving too well and his lack of conditioning was evident. But then again, this is Robert Horry and he’s going to have regular season games like this.

-Matt Bonner was victim of a classic Pop DNP-CD. After starting two consecutive games, Bonner didn’t get off the bench for the Spurs tonight. It’s tough to blame the coaching staff though because last game against the Lakers Bonner put up a goose egg when he could have really made a case for himself in terms of getting minutes in the rotation.

-Pop did a good job overall. He let Duncan get out there for 20 minutes to shake the rust off and kept him on the bench when the Nuggets were making their late run. I also liked how he didn’t overplay Ginobili even though Parker was out. The Spurs stuck to their guns after a difficult first quarter and broke through in the middle two quarters, outscoring the Nuggets 68-41. The fourth quarter got ugly but that’s what happens when Duncan is on the bench, Parker is out and Ginobili is out of rhythm. Bottomline is it was a good win but more importantly it was nice to have Duncan back in the fold.

RuffnReadyOzStyle
12-16-2007, 01:38 AM
Great as always, timvp. :) :tu

I have 3 comments:
1. I love watching Oberto stick that 12-15fter. You know he's going to get hustle baskets, but having seen him do it time and again, I now fully trust his jumper and it adds another dimension to his hustle game. He has become a solid contributor for this team since the playoffs last year.
2. Udoka - wtf? He has looked HORRIBLE of late, especially turning the ball over with poor, dumb passes. Hope he comes on a bit soon and shows us something.
3. Bonner - I think a DNP is a bad move by Pop at this stage. If he keeps yanking him in and out of the lineup like this he'll ruin his confidence like he did to Beno (amongst others). So he had a bad game at the Lakers, so what - you give him some 1st half minutes today and tell him to hustle his arse off or he'll sit... but you don't just freeze him out like that. If I'm Bonner right now I'm shrugging my shoulders and saying "wtf is up with this guy?"

AnotherArgie
12-16-2007, 01:42 AM
About Manu: it's me or he wasn't getting any calls in the offensive side? He struggled like tonight many more times, but usually he was able to, at least, get to the FT line.

BeerIsGood!
12-16-2007, 01:45 AM
About Manu: it's me or he wasn't getting any calls in the offensive side? He struggled like tonight many more times, but usually he was able to, at least, get to the FT line.

You have to take care of the ball long enough to get fouled if you want to get to the line.

AFBlue
12-16-2007, 01:53 AM
Fabricio with two turnaround jumpers tonight...WTF? Dude was en fuego. Seriously though, I completely agree that Oberto has turned into a legit starting Center in this league. What's amazing is that he's done it while playing within the confines of his ability and the system....this guy epitomizes Spurs basketball.

Also agree on Darius. I think he's a great scorer and a good individual talent, but he still has a ways to go in regards to playing Spurs (a.k.a. smart) basketball.

I can recall one specific play at the end of a quarter where he got the ball with less than 30 seconds on the clock and instead of bringing the ball up slowly and working for the final shot, he decided to go on a crazy fastbreak....that resulted in a turnover and subsequent Nugget basket.

Again, I think this kid has enough talent, work ethic, and smarts to be a long-term piece to this team...but he's still a "rookie" that played to that label in many cases tonight.

Elson was terrible once again, but I hope he's okay. I wonder if his injury is serious enough for the Spurs to recall Mahinmi. Personally, I hope they don't recall Mahinmi, who needs to continue his development in Austin and turn in consistent performances. Sad to say, but I think I'd still rather have Elson at this point...

Lastly, Ime has been awful but I'm hoping it's more of him trying to regain confidence and learn the system. Something about this guy tells me he's got more Oberto in him than Elson. I think the guy will "get it", I just think he needs more time.

AFBlue
12-16-2007, 02:01 AM
I really liked how Williams chipped in 29 points and shot so effectively from the field. While it's apparent he doesn't have much of a three-point game, maybe the Austin coaching staff can convince him to play within his means and not take so many.

I also like how Cheyne has come in for a called-up Washington and done....wait, what "game thoughts" thread is this?

Dude, Chump where are you with the Toros v. Stampede game thoughts?

urunobili
12-16-2007, 02:27 AM
i'm addicted to this shit... thanks timvp

DariusWashington
12-16-2007, 03:02 AM
-I thought Darius Washington took a step back in his development tonight. His clock management, especially at the end of quarters and the end of shot clocks, was poor. He had a couple of possessions where he didn’t make the passes he needed to make. In fairness, he is still very raw but this game didn’t make Pop gain any confidence in him. He still has a lot of work to do before he’s capable of playing championship caliber basketball.


Hey, it's not my fault if they sent me to the D-league and I don't know the system.

NuGGeTs-FaN
12-16-2007, 03:47 AM
Nuggets took a night off. Saving themselves for the playoffs :smokin :lol I must be hanging around here too much coz im starting to use the 'its only December' excuse :lol

roycrikside
12-16-2007, 04:22 AM
I don't think Manu's defense was all that bad. He did draw three charges on AI.

timvp
12-16-2007, 04:36 AM
I don't think Manu's defense was all that bad. He did draw three charges on AI.It was actually pretty decent. Holding AI to 30 in a regular season game is a job well done. Manu, Bowen and even Vaughn had some pretty good possessions against him.

m33p0
12-16-2007, 04:50 AM
manu is in some kind of funk. is it simply because he's trying too hard?

RuffnReadyOzStyle
12-16-2007, 07:41 AM
manu is in some kind of funk. is it simply because he's trying too hard?

Manu is streaky (great example last playoffs - he was cold until the middle of the Suns series, then hot as hell), and it makes sense when you think about the energy it must have cost him to get 37 two nights in a row. With Tim, and now TP out, he's had to play a lot harder and basically become "the man".

He'll be back in form soon enough.

m33p0
12-16-2007, 09:05 AM
Manu is streaky (great example last playoffs - he was cold until the middle of the Suns series, then hot as hell), and it makes sense when you think about the energy it must have cost him to get 37 two nights in a row. With Tim, and now TP out, he's had to play a lot harder and basically become "the man".

He'll be back in form soon enough.

:tu

LaMarcus Bryant
12-16-2007, 09:44 AM
Did Carmelo even play in last night's game?

m33p0
12-16-2007, 09:49 AM
Did Carmelo even play in last night's game?


i remember someone mentioning melo staring down someone, possibly duncan, when he dunked one time. probably his only appearance that night.

Cherry
12-16-2007, 09:53 AM
Manu is streaky (great example last playoffs - he was cold until the middle of the Suns series, then hot as hell), and it makes sense when you think about the energy it must have cost him to get 37 two nights in a row. With Tim, and now TP out, he's had to play a lot harder and basically become "the man".

He'll be back in form soon enough.


:tu :stirpot:

FromWayDowntown
12-16-2007, 10:25 AM
The Nuggets spent the entire evening carping at the officials. They got what they deserved for taking that approach -- it's tough to win when you're complaining to an official on just about every possession.

That said, this was a vintage Team is Everything performance from the Spurs. Survive off nights from Duncan and Ginobili (and no Parker) by getting huge nights from Finley, Oberto, and Barry (at least in the first half). Take advantage of a distracted team's lack of focus and blow them out when the opportunity presents itself.

To me, the win was more important than impressive; important because while regular season games are, at this point, largely meaningless, you hate to give up a winnable game against a conference playoff team -- and particularly a game at home.

SAGambler
12-16-2007, 10:25 AM
Great as always, timvp. :) :tu

I have 3 comments:
1. I love watching Oberto stick that 12-15fter. You know he's going to get hustle baskets, but having seen him do it time and again, I now fully trust his jumper and it adds another dimension to his hustle game. He has become a solid contributor for this team since the playoffs last year.
2. Udoka - wtf? He has looked HORRIBLE of late, especially turning the ball over with poor, dumb passes. Hope he comes on a bit soon and shows us something.
3. Bonner - I think a DNP is a bad move by Pop at this stage. If he keeps yanking him in and out of the lineup like this he'll ruin his confidence like he did to Beno (amongst others). So he had a bad game at the Lakers, so what - you give him some 1st half minutes today and tell him to hustle his arse off or he'll sit... but you don't just freeze him out like that. If I'm Bonner right now I'm shrugging my shoulders and saying "wtf is up with this guy?"

Agree on all points. Are we about to see a barage of "Trade Bonner" threads? WTF is it with Pop and his "once in the doghouse, always in the doghouse" bullshit? A few nights ago, Pop couldn't praise Bonner enough, and then he has a bad game, and it's "sit on the bench, boy". Wonder how long before he sits Duncan for having a 5 point game? Pop is a great coach, no doubt..But damn he knows how to shred a guys confidence all to hell.

wildbill2u
12-16-2007, 10:41 AM
I tend to agree with the comments about Pop and Bonner. It looks like Pop is playing head games with players even if he isn't but just doesn't realize it.

When Pop plays a very raw rookie like Washington who doesn't do much and a player who's been something of a disappointment all year (I'm Okeydokey) and Elson (what can you say good about him?) and they don't contribute either, then what is Bonner to conclude when he can't get any minutes even when it was a garbage time blowout with the Spurs up 26?

I love what Pop has done with this team overall, but sometimes his rotations and minutes just don't make sense and appear to be made by some arbitrary judgment he makes about a player's errors.

fred33
12-16-2007, 10:55 AM
how was tony?

exstatic
12-16-2007, 11:06 AM
how was tony?
I can't find my ass with two hands and a magnifying glass forum.

I'm not nearly as happy with Vaughn's play this year as last. He seems to be trying to do WAY too much, and fucking up a LOT of possessions. If we're going to have a backup PG who's going to dribble the clock out and then try to create something, fucking plug Darius in right now. Vaughn isn't talented enough to pull that one off.

MaNuMaNiAc
12-16-2007, 11:08 AM
I can't find my ass with two hands and a magnifying glass forum.
:lol

LaMarcus Bryant
12-16-2007, 11:09 AM
timvp---not counting this game's comments, but especially the laker game's comments--are you being a pessimist about Washington's role and performance so people don't get let down or do you seriously believe he's one of these ron mercer-lite spurs that people see alot of good but Pop is secretly hating everything about him and will soon get him off the team?

duncan228
12-16-2007, 11:13 AM
how was tony?

Parker looked very nice on the bench in a sports coat and jeans.
Where he will be for the near future.


Pop said he had no plan to rush Parker back and wished he had sat him a game earlier.

duncan228
12-16-2007, 11:30 AM
First off, it was nice to see Tim Duncan back out on the court. It’s easy to take him for granted and forget how much easier he makes the game for everyone around him.

This was all that mattered to me last night.
Everything else was secondary.

I thought Duncan moved well for the time he missed. He was heavily taped, more than usual, but I didn't notice him moving "painfully slow at times" as you say. I'll watch it again to see what I missed. I'm sure you're right and I didn't notice it.
Duncan's presence on the court and with his team makes so much impact I don't know where to start. His stats mean nothing to me at this moment. He will work back in and it will fall into place.

It was wonderful to see Oberto and Finley go off. Oberto has the knack of being in the right place under the glass, those offensive rebounds and tip outs are one of my favorite parts of his game.

Finley felt it. I hope it happens more often and I really hope he's got something in him by the playoffs.

I thought Barry was our x factor last night. Like you said, he stuck his nose in there and competed. He kept us in it in the early going when it could have gotten ugly, uglier, and the Nuggets could have run away with it early.

Vaughn took a lot of shit in the game blog, especially early. But I thought his hustle was to be commended. He may not be what people want him to be but last night I didn't think he hurt us and I like the hustle. That energy will always make good things happen for a team.

As always, love your thoughts. Thanks for giving us your time and energy to do them.

BonnerDynasty
12-16-2007, 12:00 PM
Maybe if Bonner played some defense and didn't always hesitate to shoot he'd play more.

After that pitiful performance in L.A. he didn't deserve to play last night.

Fuck confidence, 3 mil a year is confidence.

whottt
12-16-2007, 12:06 PM
I'm not nearly as happy with Vaughn's play this year as last. He seems to be trying to do WAY too much, and fucking up a LOT of possessions. If we're going to have a backup PG who's going to dribble the clock out and then try to create something, fucking plug Darius in right now. Vaughn isn't talented enough to pull that one off.


At this point last season Vaughn sucked 10 times worse than he does now...

This is not to say he doesn't suck right now...because he does....but he also didn't have a training camp and is still playing his way into shape and knocking off the rust.

zekes
12-16-2007, 12:24 PM
Elson’s way of honoring Camby


:lol

SAGambler
12-16-2007, 12:24 PM
Maybe if Bonner played some defense and didn't always hesitate to shoot he'd play more.

After that pitiful performance in L.A. he didn't deserve to play last night.

Fuck confidence, 3 mil a year is confidence.

He played a total of 16 fucking minutes and had 2FGAs. How many times have we watched Fin put up brick after fucking brick and stay on the floor?

And another thing, if that had been Beno on the floor performing like Vaughn played the first quarter, he would have been yanked and benched for the rest of the year.

I for one am damn tired of watching Vaughn try to be a dribbler until the shot clock is down to 2 seconds and then either put up a brick or pass it to someone who has about a second to get a shot off. I don't give a damn if he "hustles" so much he gets rebounds while sitting on the floor on his ass, this guy does not help our offense. It becomes stagnant while everyone stands and watches him dribble. Maybe he thinks he can become another AI. Well, he can't, not that I would even want him too. I think AI kills a lot of offensive possessions for the Nuggets the same way.

If Washington isn't the guy to replace Vaughn, then they need to find someone who can.

Que Gee
12-16-2007, 02:57 PM
Manu is streaky (great example last playoffs - he was cold until the middle of the Suns series, then hot as hell), and it makes sense when you think about the energy it must have cost him to get 37 two nights in a row. With Tim, and now TP out, he's had to play a lot harder and basically become "the man".

He'll be back in form soon enough.

I hope so because he was attrocious this week, and killed me on my fantasy squad. Hopefully an up and down run and gun affair against the Suns will kickstart him this week.

exstatic
12-16-2007, 03:36 PM
At this point last season Vaughn sucked 10 times worse than he does now...

This is not to say he doesn't suck right now...because he does....but he also didn't have a training camp and is still playing his way into shape and knocking off the rust.
You expect that in year one. You don't expect him to forget everything about this offense and turn into Steve Francis. He's taken a huge step backwards from late last year and the playoffs, and I'm calling his talentless ass out.

Jacques, bring the ball up the court, give it to a talented player, and move to get open for the jumper you KNOW they're going to give you. Don't do anything else on offense. D up. That is all.

ShoogarBear
12-16-2007, 04:45 PM
I can't find my ass with two hands and a magnifying glass forum.

I'm not nearly as happy with Vaughn's play this year as last. He seems to be trying to do WAY too much, and fucking up a LOT of possessions. If we're going to have a backup PG who's going to dribble the clock out and then try to create something, fucking plug Darius in right now. Vaughn isn't talented enough to pull that one off.The thing I've noticed this year is that the Spurs don't seem to change the offense when Vaughn is playing. They're running the same plays as if TP was still in there. I don't understand why, but I'm not sure Vaughn doing all that dribbling and taking all those shots is completely his fault.

Bruno
12-16-2007, 04:48 PM
-Matt Bonner was victim of a classic Pop DNP-CD. After starting two consecutive games, Bonner didn’t get off the bench for the Spurs tonight. It’s tough to blame the coaching staff though because last game against the Lakers Bonner put up a goose egg when he could have really made a case for himself in terms of getting minutes in the rotation.


i don't get why he hasn't played the garbage time. Even when Elson was injured Pop put back Oberto instead of using Bonner.
Maybe Bonner was injured or Pop wanting to send him a message.
The crazy theory is that a trade is in the block with him. Tomorrow is the first day where he can be traded.

ChumpDumper
12-16-2007, 04:50 PM
The thing I've noticed this year is that the Spurs don't seem to change the offense when Vaughn is playing. They're running the same plays as if TP was still in there. I don't understand why, but I'm not sure Vaughn doing all that dribbling and taking all those shots is completely his fault.Yeah, I think it's some early-season experimentation by Pop to see if there are ways to maximize Jacque's offensive potential.

ShoogarBear
12-16-2007, 05:34 PM
Yeah, I think it's some early-season experimentation by Pop to see if there are ways to maximize Jacque's offensive potential.If that's true, then Pop's ego has gotten out of control. :lol

SAGambler
12-16-2007, 06:12 PM
Yeah, I think it's some early-season experimentation by Pop to see if there are ways to maximize Jacque's offensive potential.

Another NVE experiment, no doubt. We all know how that worked out.

exstatic
12-16-2007, 07:18 PM
Jacques Vaughn's offensive potential was maximized at KU. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

ChumpDumper
12-16-2007, 08:10 PM
Another NVE experiment, no doubt.
That doesn't make any sense.

Mr.Bottomtooth
12-16-2007, 08:12 PM
That doesn't make any sense.
Well they've done research you know. 60% of the time it works every time.

FromWayDowntown
12-16-2007, 08:49 PM
Another NVE experiment, no doubt. We all know how that worked out.

If it turns out, as most of us suspect, that Vaughn is offensively-challenged, we all know that Vaughn can do enough -- not make mistakes and provide at least some relatively high level of defensive ability -- to help the Spurs to win playoff games (or at least do enough to not make the Spurs lose playoff games).

The improvement over Van Exel in last year's playoffs was, I thought, rather clear. I'd argue that had Jacque Vaughn played for the Spurs in 2006, we'd be talking about the possibility of a three-peat.

m33p0
12-16-2007, 10:07 PM
If it turns out, as most of us suspect, that Vaughn is offensively-challenged, we all know that Vaughn can do enough -- not make mistakes and provide at least some relatively high level of defensive ability -- to help the Spurs to win playoff games (or at least do enough to not make the Spurs lose playoff games).

The improvement over Van Exel in last year's playoffs was, I thought, rather clear. I'd argue that had Jacque Vaughn played for the Spurs in 2006, we'd be talking about the possibility of a three-peat.


last year, he was doing quite well filling in for tony. this year, someone has to remind him of his job description and that the job of lead point is already taken.

SouthernFried
12-16-2007, 10:31 PM
Vaughn reminds me so much of Avery. Took years for Avery to develop that ugly shot with any consistency. Vaughn's shot looks better. He's not much of a penetrate/dish kinda guy, more of a "dribble to the top of the key, and give to Manu" type of guy. If he does that, and plays good D, I can live with him as a backup.