Suns more ripe for the picking than ever.

[T Park]

IMO this game tonight, if I'm a SUns fan, raises ALOT of red flags.

First the obvious, Tim Duncan is back to putting recockulas numbers on the Suns and he did that missing alot of point blank shots he 99% of the time always makes.

The interior defense of the Suns is about as soft as butter in a 500 degree oven. When the Spurs were agressive they took the Suns to the hole at will and got whatever they wanted. THe Suns are back to 05 level defense, and theres no Kurt Thomas to bail em out.

Grant Hill is a nice addition, but IMO hes not gonna bag turn around shots all night like he did tonight and ESPECIALLY if TOny Parker is in the lineup and Bowen slides over to him. Hope you liked some of the shots tonight Grant, you wont see em again against a healthy Spurs team.


I loved Jacque Vaughn's play tonight. He did as told, gave up the ball to Barry or Manu and got out of the way. His jumper looked fluid and spectacular, and the Suns did nothing to adjust. The comeback to that is "Thats who you want shooting it" True, but if the guy bags the first 3 shots of a quarter to tie the game, think a hand in the face might be warranted?


Amare Stoudamire while he looked solid, was a practical no show. HIs defense as always was horrid, but the Spurs denied him the ball VERY easily. I couldn't believe when the Suns would run a play for him he was so passive to not giving a shot. Props to Duncan but dude, WTF?


If Tony Parker plays the game tonight, this is a DECIDEDLY different outcome.
There were countless times tonight where Barbosa got baskets that he didn't even SNIFF in the playoffs last year. Barbosa is usually guarded by Parker and Parker shuts him down. Evidence Spurs v Suns game 6 last year.



All that being said, the Suns scare me MUCH less this year than last. Skinner while decent on defense, is NO Kurt Thomas. Grant Hill does add a little punch but he trails every single Suns fastbreak and that will kill the Suns when guys like Bowen or Ginobili are allowed to slide over to him.


All in all lots of silver linings.

Keep shooting Bruce :tu

[Darkwaters]

I agree. Even in victory, the Suns should be very worried.

[K-State Spur]

tough to come away overly impressed with the Suns.

they had better hope that Nash and Amare are just coasting, because if they play like that in the playoffs, it will be the first Spurs 'sweep' of the Suns.

no parker, manu's still in a funk, SAS shot 20% from 3 - most of them open, had multiple chances to either get a rebound or a score to win it in the final minute, and the Suns had a 2:1 FT advantage (was this game in Phoenix??????)

if PHX banks on those things happening in the summer, they're building their foundation out of sand.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

The biggest key for Phoenix to beat SA in a series is this:


Stop Tim Duncan


until then, I am not worried


props to skinner, but I don't think he's nearly as good as Kurt Thomas.

[Nash2Amare]

Well, if they (Suns) get back to feeding Amare consistently, I'm far from worried. Skinner will suffice if given minutes. (good minutes)

[K-State Spur]

Skinner had a couple of plays where he gave Tim problems - and he's an upgrade over Amare (who isn't).

But unlike Kurt Thomas, he let Tim get low position time and time again. More often than not, that'll = 2 points or a trip to the line.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Amare is impressive no doubt, but he is gonna be more vulnerable than ever defensively because he doesn't have KT to save his ass from foul trouble.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

funny thing about Skinner is that he had a +/- of -6 tonight

[Stargazer]

Of course, there's red flags in every game, and silver linings in every game. But here's what I see that gives me hope:

1. Even with all of the mistakes and errors that you point out, the Suns still won -- so that tells you that those mistakes aren't enough to put the Suns out of the game. If the Suns had played flawlessly and squeaked a win, that would be cause for concern.

2. TP didn't play, so maybe that's a difference maker -- but as you point out, Vaughn had a great game tonight, so maybe that cancels it a bit (or maybe not, it's always hard to predict how a missing player might have impacted a game).

3. I'm not sure how much press it's gotten outside of Phoenix, but Nash has been playing with an injured shoulder for a couple weeks now. It mostly seems to impact his shooting, which is why his assists are up and his scoring down. I agree Nash needs to pick it up, but I see no reason to think that he won't come playoff time.

4. Grant Hill is something new to the mix, and makes an impact against the Spurs. How will Bowen guard him if he's got Nash? Maybe Manu takes him, but how tall is Manu? Hill is 6'8" -- just barely shorter than Amare is.

5. The biggest ground for hope is that I don't think anyone in the Suns thinks tonight was anything other than a good win. Contrary to years past around here (Phoenix), all the talk this year has been worrying and complaining that the Suns are just racking up wins without really gutting out improvements where it matters. Whatever else you can say, I don't see this year's team as complacent about anything.

But I sure hope the Spurs disagree with me and agree with you, that they have nothing to worry about this year from the Suns. I want the Suns to stay hungry, and the Spurs to stay pleased with themselves.

[Stargazer]

One thing the Spurs did tonight against the Suns that was smart, and that I would think other teams would think to do: routinely contest the inbounds pass on a made basket. All you need to set up properly on defense is a second or two head start, and contesting the inbounds gives you that, so why don't other teams do it? Instead of scrambling like mad to get back (or in addition to it), just stand somebody under the basket to contest the inbounds pass.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

One thing the Spurs did tonight against the Suns that was smart, and that I would think other teams would think to do: routinely contest the inbounds pass on a made basket. All you need to set up properly on defense is a second or two head start, and contesting the inbounds gives you that, so why don't other teams do it? Instead of scrambling like mad to get back (or in addition to it), just stand somebody under the basket to contest the inbounds pass.


Do you think the Spurs are a good team overall?

[K-State Spur]

Vaughn replaced some of Parker's direct production, but the Suns never gave him the respect that Parker commands that opens up things for teammates.

They were perfectly happy letting him chuck 16 footers and worrying about everybody else.

[T Park]

Suns fan thinking Vaughn replaced Parker well is prob the funniest thing since
"Its a stupid rule"

[travis2]

2. TP didn't play, so maybe that's a difference maker -- but as you point out, Vaughn had a great game tonight, so maybe that cancels it a bit (or maybe not, it's always hard to predict how a missing player might have impacted a game).

It would make a difference...or at least, the look the Spurs give the Suns would be very different from the one they saw tonight. Vaughn is no threat to lead a fast break or slash to the basket. Further, defensively, Parker would probably take Nash and Bowen would shift to Hill or Marion. While Parker is not Bowen on defense, he IS faster and can stay in front of Nash. When you consider that even Bowen was able to stay in front of Nash last night, I have no doubts about Parker's ability to do so.


4. Grant Hill is something new to the mix, and makes an impact against the Spurs. How will Bowen guard him if he's got Nash? Maybe Manu takes him, but how tall is Manu? Hill is 6'8" -- just barely shorter than Amare is.


Parker takes Nash, Bowen takes Hill. And Manu is 6'6"...it's not like he's trying to guard Kevin Garnett...

[RonMexico]

and the Suns had a 2:1 FT advantage (was this game in Phoenix??????)

Actually, the Spurs tended to have higher FT numbers in Phoenix during the Semis last year... the Suns had a high FT margin in Game 4 last year.

[RonMexico]

The biggest key for Phoenix to beat SA in a series is this:


Stop Tim Duncan


until then, I am not worried


props to skinner, but I don't think he's nearly as good as Kurt Thomas.

1. If Parker played, then Duncan wouldn't have gotten as many touches.

2. It's time for D'Antoni to stop with this Amare defending Duncan routine... he got some lucky no-calls out there and still ended up with 5 fouls. Leave Skinner in there to try him 1-on-1 and then double down as needed, leaving Amare and Marion to protect the glass. It worked out tonight, but won't work in the POs.

[urunobili]

Emo thread

[m33p0]

2. TP didn't play, so maybe that's a difference maker -- but as you point out, Vaughn had a great game tonight, so maybe that cancels it a bit (or maybe not, it's always hard to predict how a missing player might have impacted a game).

vaughn replaced parker's production? he never pressured the suns defense to begin with. all he had were jumpshots.

vaughn never drove to the basket, never got to the line and never forced the defense to collapse on him leaving the shooters open. those are the things tony parker gives to the spurs.

d'antoni was right to let vaughn camp outside happily chucking away with jumpers. jacques has never been accused of being a great shooter.

[DallasFan]

IMO this game tonight, if I'm a SUns fan, raises ALOT of red flags.

First the obvious, Tim Duncan is back to putting recockulas numbers on the Suns and he did that missing alot of point blank shots he 99% of the time always makes.

The interior defense of the Suns is about as soft as butter in a 500 degree oven. When the Spurs were agressive they took the Suns to the hole at will and got whatever they wanted. THe Suns are back to 05 level defense, and theres no Kurt Thomas to bail em out.

Grant Hill is a nice addition, but IMO hes not gonna bag turn around shots all night like he did tonight and ESPECIALLY if TOny Parker is in the lineup and Bowen slides over to him. Hope you liked some of the shots tonight Grant, you wont see em again against a healthy Spurs team.


I loved Jacque Vaughn's play tonight. He did as told, gave up the ball to Barry or Manu and got out of the way. His jumper looked fluid and spectacular, and the Suns did nothing to adjust. The comeback to that is "Thats who you want shooting it" True, but if the guy bags the first 3 shots of a quarter to tie the game, think a hand in the face might be warranted?


Amare Stoudamire while he looked solid, was a practical no show. HIs defense as always was horrid, but the Spurs denied him the ball VERY easily. I couldn't believe when the Suns would run a play for him he was so passive to not giving a shot. Props to Duncan but dude, WTF?


If Tony Parker plays the game tonight, this is a DECIDEDLY different outcome.
There were countless times tonight where Barbosa got baskets that he didn't even SNIFF in the playoffs last year. Barbosa is usually guarded by Parker and Parker shuts him down. Evidence Spurs v Suns game 6 last year.



All that being said, the Suns scare me MUCH less this year than last. Skinner while decent on defense, is NO Kurt Thomas. Grant Hill does add a little punch but he trails every single Suns fastbreak and that will kill the Suns when guys like Bowen or Ginobili are allowed to slide over to him.


All in all lots of silver linings.

Keep shooting Bruce :tu

I agree as well...ESPN also agreed. I hope the Mavs can beat them, as long as we bring our defense.

[m33p0]

I agree as well...ESPN also agreed. I hope the Mavs can beat them, as long as we bring our defense.

brandon bass could prove pivotal in the mavs matchup against the suns. well, since bass was enlisted to take advantage of the warriors' relatively weak interior defense, i guess it should work on the suns, too.

[Soul_Patch]

I was really suprised to see what little defense the suns showed last year, totaly disapear this year.

This is the 05 Suns all over again. I, unfortunately dont see a long play off run with this type of squad.

like many others have pointed out, stick TP back in there and the floor opens up tremendously, and this is a whole new ball game. The suns are a fantastic scoring team, i just dont think it translates into a ring.

[Gordionot]

Nash has a gimped shoulder at present and is only playing at about 50%. Even injured he's still better than most PG's in the league but a pale comparison to his usual self. Suns played pretty poorly overall, still managed to eek out the win. With the addition of Hill and Skinner filling KT's shoes I'm feeling very good about our chances come playoff time.

[da_suns_fan]

Whats amazing is that even though the Suns' defense is like butter in a 500 degree oven, the Spurs still only managed to score 95 points against it.

What does that make the Spurs offense?

The Suns held the Spurs to a lower shooting percentage.

What does that make the Spurs defense?

Also, Bell and Barbosa missed a lot of WIDE OPEN threes that they normally make. How does San Antonio hope to compete when their shots are falling?

This is just one game, but its obvious the Suns have MUCH more talent than the Spurs.

Now they just got to make sure they're firing on all cylinders come playoff time. If that happens, no one has a chance.

[TDMVPDPOY]

grant hill will be exposed in a playoff series...loggin those minutes early in the season is going to loom in the playoffs...

[Soul_Patch]

What does that make the Spurs offense?

this makes the spurs offense down 1 20+ ppg player and the other in a slump...are you seriously that ignorant?

with 1 person playing consistent offense, and our defense failing for the majority of the game, you guys squeaked out a win.

like i said, congratulations, but your defense is non existant...with TP spacing the floor, this game isnt even close.

[da_suns_fan]

this makes the spurs offense down 1 20+ ppg player and the other in a slump...are you seriously that ignorant?

with 1 person playing consistent offense, and our defense failing for the majority of the game, you guys squeaked out a win.

like i said, congratulations, but your defense is non existant...with TP spacing the floor, this game isnt even close.

TP spaces the floor with his erratic jumper? :lol

On his best day Parker can't hit outside shots as well as Vaughn or Barry.

Are you new to basketball? Do you know what "spacing the floor" even means?

If anything, the Suns would just pack it in more and dare Parker to shoot.

We'll take our chances with Tony's J.

[Gordionot]

with TP spacing the floor, this game isnt even close.

:lol

Don't get too ahead of yourself champ. Hubris is not an admirable quality.

[Soul_Patch]

TP spaces the floor with his erratic jumper? :lol

On his best day Parker can't hit outside shots as well as Vaughn or Barry.

Are you new to basketball? Do you know what "spacing the floor" even means?

If anything, the Suns would just pack it in more and dare Parker to shoot.

We'll take our chances with Tony's J.


I think you are just plain dense...


who is going to keep TP from driving to the hoop? who? just wondering...and if he gets to the basket (which judging by your teams complete lack of D he will, alot), and you guys 'pack it in' who is going to be on the perimeter to guard finley, barry, bowen, horry, bonner, udoka, etc etc etc....

are you starting to understand? or is it still muddled? i suspect that later.

[Darkwaters]

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

Give it time guys. Suns fans are still working their way through it all.

[ancestron]

The Spurs had the Suns where they wanted them all night. It just came down to missing shots and turning the ball over.
I'm not usually one to complain about referees, but it really did seem like the refs missed a bunch of calls the home team should have gotten. I guess the NBA has to make it as hard as possible for the "Dirty Spurs"
bullshit.

[da_suns_fan]

The Spurs had the Suns where they wanted them all night. It just came down to missing shots and turning the ball over.
I'm not usually one to complain about referees, but it really did seem like the refs missed a bunch of calls the home team should have gotten. I guess the NBA has to make it as hard as possible for the "Dirty Spurs"
bullshit.


That explains why the Spurs were freaking out after every single call.

You want to know the best part?

Before the game started, the Suns network ran a video montage of the Spurs whining to Green Days "Basket Case":


Do you have the time to listen to me wine
About nothing and everything all at once
I am one of those melodramatic fools
Neurotic to the bone, no doubt about it

And on cue, the Spurs passionately objected to every call the entire night.

[TwoHandJam]

Whats amazing is that even though the Suns' defense is like butter in a 500 degree oven, the Spurs still only managed to score 95 points against it.

What does that make the Spurs offense?

The Suns held the Spurs to a lower shooting percentage.

What does that make the Spurs defense?

Also, Bell and Barbosa missed a lot of WIDE OPEN threes that they normally make. How does San Antonio hope to compete when their shots are falling?

This is just one game, but its obvious the Suns have MUCH more talent than the Spurs.

Now they just got to make sure they're firing on all cylinders come playoff time. If that happens, no one has a chance.
:lmao

Just like last year! And the year before that... and the year....

[spursfan09]

Too bad Barbose couldn't play like that last playoffs.

[ancestron]

That explains why the Spurs were freaking out after every single call.

You want to know the best part?

Before the game started, the Suns network ran a video montage of the Spurs whining to Green Days "Basket Case":



And on cue, the Spurs passionately objected to every call the entire night.

I wasn't talking about calls. I was talking about non-calls.

a video montage showing the Spurs arguing calls? That's classy. I guarantee the same exact video montage could be made for every other team in the league just as easily.

I suppose when you're used to the season ending with pictures of Nash, D'antoni, and Marion fishing, you'd have to look for other things to feel good about. "HaHa look at those damn dirty whining ass spurs haha they suck...they won the championship last year? Oh..who cares...Duncan is a whiner...Oh they won the Championship in 2005 too? Who cares. Ginobili flops! They won the title in 2003 too? Eh, who cares the Spurs are old!"

So please continue your current type of thinking, and encourage others to do the same. It seems to working out ok on this end.

[telecomguy]

Whats amazing is that even though the Suns' defense is like butter in a 500 degree oven, the Spurs still only managed to score 95 points against it.

What does that make the Spurs offense?

The Suns held the Spurs to a lower shooting percentage.

What does that make the Spurs defense?

Also, Bell and Barbosa missed a lot of WIDE OPEN threes that they normally make. How does San Antonio hope to compete when their shots are falling?

This is just one game, but its obvious the Suns have MUCH more talent than the Spurs.

Now they just got to make sure they're firing on all cylinders come playoff time. If that happens, no one has a chance.

hmmm did you look at Spurs 3 pt. shooting? They were something like 5 for 23! Normally Spurs shoot 40%+ so had they shot their season average, they would have had 15 more points!! Meaning Spurs would have won by a big huge margin. It would be one thing if the Spurs missed because Suns were playing tough defense but the Spurs were just missing easy open looks. I doubt Spurs are going to go 5-23 next time they play, or in the playoffs.....and I would have to believe that with TP, we would have had even more points in the paint, not to mention fouls and foul shooting attempts.

The reality is that aside from Duncan and Finley, we played pretty badly and were within one made basket from winning the game. THAT should worry the Suns more than anything.

[Darkwaters]

hmmm did you look at Spurs 3 pt. shooting? They were something like 5 for 23! Normally Spurs shoot 40%+ so had they shot their season average, they would have had 15 more points!! Meaning Spurs would have won by a big huge margin. It would be one thing if the Spurs missed because Suns were playing tough defense but the Spurs were just missing easy open looks. I doubt Spurs are going to go 5-23 next time they play, or in the playoffs.....and I would have to believe that with TP, we would have had even more points in the paint, not to mention fouls and foul shooting attempts.

The reality is that aside from Duncan and Finley, we played pretty badly and were within one made basket from winning the game. THAT should worry the Suns more than anything.

Seconded.

[RonMexico]

I was really suprised to see what little defense the suns showed last year, totaly disapear this year.

This is the 05 Suns all over again. I, unfortunately dont see a long play off run with this type of squad.

like many others have pointed out, stick TP back in there and the floor opens up tremendously, and this is a whole new ball game. The suns are a fantastic scoring team, i just dont think it translates into a ring.

Amazing how the "if Parker played, Suns would have lost" argument is thrown out there, yet Spurs fans don't acknowlege the "if Amare and Diaw played, we might have won Game 5" claims that Suns fans make.

Can't say I'm really surprised since whenever Duncan, Parker, or Manu is on the bench and the Spurs lose, I read about a hundred "if Timmy played" posts.

[RonMexico]

The Spurs had the Suns where they wanted them all night. It just came down to missing shots and turning the ball over.
I'm not usually one to complain about referees, but it really did seem like the refs missed a bunch of calls the home team should have gotten. I guess the NBA has to make it as hard as possible for the "Dirty Spurs"
bullshit.

I guess when the Suns were dominating all of Game 5 at home last year, but the Spurs executed down the stretch, then it just came down to missing shots and turning the ball over.

Oh wait, everyone comes on here and is like: "yay Bruce for hitting clutch 3's"

[RonMexico]

hmmm did you look at Spurs 3 pt. shooting? They were something like 5 for 23! Normally Spurs shoot 40%+ so had they shot their season average, they would have had 15 more points!! Meaning Spurs would have won by a big huge margin. It would be one thing if the Spurs missed because Suns were playing tough defense but the Spurs were just missing easy open looks. I doubt Spurs are going to go 5-23 next time they play, or in the playoffs.....and I would have to believe that with TP, we would have had even more points in the paint, not to mention fouls and foul shooting attempts.

The reality is that aside from Duncan and Finley, we played pretty badly and were within one made basket from winning the game. THAT should worry the Suns more than anything.

Bell was 1 for 6 from 3... and he had a lot of wide open looks. Barbosa was 6 of 16 at one point. Nash had 0 first half points.

Should the Spurs be concerned that they gave up 100 points when the Suns had such a terrible shooting night?

Moreover, when are you going to stop with the "if we had Parker" comments? You didn't... just like the Suns didn't have Diaw and Amare in Game 5 last year.

[T Park]

On his best day Parker can't hit outside shots as well as Vaughn or Barry.

Are you new to basketball? Do you know what "spacing the floor" even means?

If anything, the Suns would just pack it in more and dare Parker to shoot.

We'll take our chances with Tony's J.

[T Park]

On his best day Parker can't hit outside shots as well as Vaughn or Barry.

Are you new to basketball? Do you know what "spacing the floor" even means?

If anything, the Suns would just pack it in more and dare Parker to shoot.

We'll take our chances with Tony's J.


Yeah that worked wonders for the Suns in the playoffs last year when he busted for 30 and high 20s almost everytime out.


The guy shoots over 50% on the season and shoots jumpers alot of times.

Yeah, but he can't shoot.


The Suns trolls are so damn stupid.

[T Park]

yet Spurs fans don't acknowlege the "if Amare and Diaw played, we might have won Game 5" claims that Suns fans make.



Yeah Boris Diaw was clearly the reason the Suns lost game 5 last year.


Ya know Suns fan, you can keep complaining about game 5 last year, but that isn't what lost the series.

Game 1 lost you the series.

Now go back to your champagne popping.

[RonMexico]

Yeah Boris Diaw was clearly the reason the Suns lost game 5 last year.


Ya know Suns fan, you can keep complaining about game 5 last year, but that isn't what lost the series.

Game 1 lost you the series.

Now go back to your champagne popping.

I seem to recall the Suns going straight to Diaw in the post last night and allowing him to create in the half court... all of this came in the 4th quarter in a game the Suns won.

Once Frenchman is more valuable than another you say?

[ancestron]

I guess when the Suns were dominating all of Game 5 at home last year, but the Spurs executed down the stretch, then it just came down to missing shots and turning the ball over.



Well actually, yes. Whats your point?

[duncan228]

The Suns trolls are so damn stupid.

I think they're at the top of the annoying troll list.
Never anything new, just the same regurgitated stuff for months now.

There were a Cavs troll or two that were pretty annoying, but the Suns trolls have to be number one on the bad trolls list.

Maybe we should do an annoying troll poll...:lol

[RonMexico]

Well actually, yes. Whats your point?

My point is that you used that as an excuse and then claimed that the Spurs would win this game with Parker or if they hit shots, or if they didn't turn the ball over or if they got calls.

See: Game 5 when Suns lost threads and look for all the "Suns would have won if they had Diaw and Amare, or if they hit shots, or if D'Antoni didn't play the starters 40 minutes or if they got calls..."

All phrases I'm pretty sure the Spurs fans on here called ridiculous.

[RonMexico]

Yeah that worked wonders for the Suns in the playoffs last year when he busted for 30 and high 20s almost everytime out.


The guy shoots over 50% on the season and shoots jumpers alot of times.

Yeah, but he can't shoot.


The Suns trolls are so damn stupid.

Game 1: 32 pts (W)
Game 2: 13 pts, 4 turnovers (L)
Game 3: 16 pts, 41 mins (W)
Game 4: 23 pts, 5 TO, 41 mins (L)
Game 5: 11 pts, 3 TO, 39 mins (W)
Game 6: 30 pts, 41 min (W)

Obviously, he scores in the 30s and high 20s every game against the Suns, especially playoff games (which all Spurs fans currently claim would have automatically given the Spurs a win last night).

[Soul_Patch]

Ron i dont mean to insinuate that if we have tony parker it is an auto win, but last night i think so...


Any given night, these two teams are capable of beating each other...that is very evident...i am saying, with TP on the floor, it makes a whole new ball game for the suns to try and manage.

I do think, however, that as the game was played last night, if TP was playing, that is a W for the spurs...the suns, as you have said, were off in a lot of spots last night, and i think TP's contributions would have put us over the top when it counted.


either way, good game from two good teams...

[lrrr]

grant hill will be exposed in a playoff series...loggin those minutes early in the season is going to loom in the playoffs...

That's actually an optimistic point of view. Grant's history indicates that he will not even be playing come playoff time. What the hell is D'Antoni thinking relying so much on a vet who hasn't played close to half a season in recent memory? If and when Hill goes down for the season, do the Suns have enough time to readjust team strategy/chemistry?

[Nash2Amare]

like i said, congratulations, but your defense is non existant...with TP spacing the floor, this game isnt even close.

Eh..cmon. Then when we say that Amare and Diaw in Game 5 would have won the game for us, you guys ignore it (Not all, but some fans)

Now all of a sudden it's reversed? Just accept the loss, we all know how meaningless this is as of now, it's December, and you guys aren't even close to your best yet.

[CarefreeAZ]

I think you are just plain dense...


who is going to keep TP from driving to the hoop? who? just wondering...and if he gets to the basket (which judging by your teams complete lack of D he will, alot), and you guys 'pack it in' who is going to be on the perimeter to guard finley, barry, bowen, horry, bonner, udoka, etc etc etc....

are you starting to understand? or is it still muddled? i suspect that later.

Soul Patch:

1) Yes our interior defense is weak but 10 steals and 8 or 9 blocked shots did help last night. Our weakside defensive with Skinner/Grant has helped our shot blocking this year.

2) Game 2 of the playoffs, Marion guarded Parker and he only had 13 or 15 points.

3)And the best one from your previous post: "The game would not have been close with TP playing". Except for game 6 of Last Year's playoffs, games between spurs and suns are always close. The games that are not close have usually been in favor of the Suns.

[RonMexico]

Ron i dont mean to insinuate that if we have tony parker it is an auto win, but last night i think so...


Any given night, these two teams are capable of beating each other...that is very evident...i am saying, with TP on the floor, it makes a whole new ball game for the suns to try and manage.

I do think, however, that as the game was played last night, if TP was playing, that is a W for the spurs...the suns, as you have said, were off in a lot of spots last night, and i think TP's contributions would have put us over the top when it counted.


either way, good game from two good teams...

True, but with TP out there does Duncan start so hot and end up with 36? Maybe, maybe not... maybe with TP, Manu breaks out of his slump, maybe not.

Mabye with Parker guarding him, Nash is able to better looks at the hoop and doesn't go for only 10 points instead of trying to shoot over the taller Bowen.

[SequSpur]

WTF, the Suns win and you dumb asses see a silver lining.... dipshits...

[BonnerDynasty]

Also, Bell and Barbosa missed a lot of WIDE OPEN threes that they normally make. How does San Antonio hope to compete when their shots are falling?

Make THEIR 3's.

[Southwest Texas Fan]

My point is that you used that as an excuse and then claimed that the Spurs would win this game with Parker or if they hit shots, or if they didn't turn the ball over or if they got calls.

See: Game 5 when Suns lost threads and look for all the "Suns would have won if they had Diaw and Amare, or if they hit shots, or if D'Antoni didn't play the starters 40 minutes or if they got calls..."

All phrases I'm pretty sure the Spurs fans on here called ridiculous.


No the point is that Parker did not play and the Spurs only lost by five. To add to that Manu played like crap. But we will see come playoff time.

[T Park]

Fuck, just let Suns fan be delusional and think they would've won game 5 last year then.

Whos holding the got damn ring.

Thats right. Step back and stfu.

[Rummpd]

This game showed the essential thing = Suns cannot stop Duncan now. Spurs could easily sweep this Suns team in a playoff game and for those who think Parker cannot shoot from the outside - wake up - he is vastly improved and right now I would not trade him for Nash even if Nash was three years younger.

[da_suns_fan]

This game showed the essential thing = Suns cannot stop Duncan now. Spurs could easily sweep this Suns team in a playoff game and for those who think Parker cannot shoot from the outside - wake up - he is vastly improved and right now I would not trade him for Nash even if Nash was three years younger.


http://www.nba.com/hotspots/

Outside of layups (shots taken withing 3 feet of the basket), Parker is shooting 39%.

If thats "vastly improved", how bad was he before?

[ambchang]

http://www.nba.com/hotspots/

Outside of layups (shots taken withing 3 feet of the basket), Parker is shooting 39%.

If thats "vastly improved", how bad was he before?
In other news, Barbosa is shooting 91-241 for 38%, and Bell is shooting 75-197 for 38% outside of layups. I thought those were supposed to be designated shooters?

[da_suns_fan]

In other news, Barbosa is shooting 91-241 for 38%, and Bell is shooting 75-197 for 38% outside of layups. I thought those were supposed to be designated shooters?

1) How many more three points shots have Bell and Barbosa taken than Parker?

Answer: Over a hundred more after only 25 games.

2) If you asked a Suns fan, we would tell you that both Bell and Barbosa have been STRUGGLING this year with their shooting (both are considerably down from last year from outside the arc).

SPURS FANS are claiming that Parker isn't erratic with his jump shot anymore!!!!!

Your answer is because both Bell and Barbosa are struggling with their shooting this year (check last years stats), that means that Parker is now a decent shooter?

Theres that Texas logic again!

[dbestpro]

In a word to explain this game.
Yawn.
Regular season is the Spurs preseason. The season does not begin until the playoffs start. Our players will be rested and ready. The rest of the league will be beat up and burnt out. Let them fall into the trap of win now. Don't you think if Nash was a Spur that Pop would let him rest and heal rather than put him at risk for further injury?
Let them win now. It is what sets the Spurs apart.

[Harry Callahan]

I think the mentally disabled Jack Nies was one of the officials in that game Monday. No surprise that w/o TP driving the basketball and forcing the issue the Suns shot a lot more FTs.

Bottom line:
Suns cannot defend Duncan
Suns cannot defend Parker
Ginobili fills in when necessary
Spurs can hold down the Suns big scorers in a 7 game series

Steve Nash is now 34 years old. A 34 year old point guard with a bad back does not improve. All the pressue is on him to create for his teammates.
Grant Hill will break down physically late in the year. He always does.
Amare is not a terribly smart player and is not the player he was in 04-05 due to his knees.

The window is rapidly closing on the Suns and they have missed out on their best chances to win it all. Sorry.

[ambchang]

1) How many more three points shots have Bell and Barbosa taken than Parker?

Answer: Over a hundred more after only 25 games.

2) If you asked a Suns fan, we would tell you that both Bell and Barbosa have been STRUGGLING this year with their shooting (both are considerably down from last year from outside the arc).

SPURS FANS are claiming that Parker isn't erratic with his jump shot anymore!!!!!

Your answer is because both Bell and Barbosa are struggling with their shooting this year (check last years stats), that means that Parker is now a decent shooter?

Theres that Texas logic again!

The logic (if you have any) is that Parker, for all his suckiness from the outside, is on par with Barbosa and Bell, who are designated shooters from one of the best shooting teams in the league. So do you get it with your Arizonan logic now?

BTW, Bell is only slightly below par on his 3, and is perfect from the line so far in the season (I know it's a small sample size).

BTW2, erratic has NOTHING to do with being good or bad.
If a person shoots 1 for 10 for 20 straight games, he simply is a bad shooter, not erratic. If another person shoots 9-10 in 10 games, then 2-10 for the other 7, he is a "better" shooter, but he is erratic, get it with your Arizona vocabulary?

[ambchang]

To answer your first "point", why do I care how many more 3 pt shots the two have shot than Parker this season? The subject is about how well Parker has shot outside of 3 feet (layups), and the answer is that he is shooting as well as Bell and Barbosa, two players who get wide open shots and are the designated shooters on the Suns. So in other words, Parker is NOT bad at shooting jumpshots, and I don't know whether Parker is erratic compared to the rest of the league in shooting jumpshots, I don't have the statistics.

[da_suns_fan]

To answer your first "point", why do I care how many more 3 pt shots the two have shot than Parker this season? The subject is about how well Parker has shot outside of 3 feet (layups), and the answer is that he is shooting as well as Bell and Barbosa, two players who get wide open shots and are the designated shooters on the Suns. So in other words, Parker is NOT bad at shooting jumpshots, and I don't know whether Parker is erratic compared to the rest of the league in shooting jumpshots, I don't have the statistics.

:lol

What your failing to understand is that even though Bell and Barbosa are shooting MUCH more three pointers than Parker and still have the same shooting percentage outside of three feet, both players are having crappy shooting years. Both have pointed to injuries as an excuse, but the fact is that they have been a little off all year.

However, Suns fans can take solace in the fact that shooting 33% at 3s is the same as shooting 50% from inside the arc, but Spurs fans can't do the same with Parker.

Whats even more telling is how Suns fans are getting upset with Bell and Barbosa for their poor shooting thus far while Spurs fans are trying to convince us that Parker has become a good shooter!!!

NO! HE HASN'T! HE'S ONLY AT 39% OUTSIDE OF THREE FREAKING FEET AND HE DOESN'T EVEN SHOOT THREE POINTERS!!!

[Gordionot]

he is vastly improved and right now I would not trade him for Nash even if Nash was three years younger.

Congrats. :clap

This takes the cake for single most asinine post I've read in about a month on any sports board, saving perhaps the "OMG Kobe > Jesus and the prophets!" tripe typical of low-brow enclaves like ESPN. Tony Parker is a terrific talent and well suited to the Spurs team but replace him with Nash and you'd probably sweep every team in the playoffs East and West. It wouldn't even be competitive.

People who don't appreciate Nash's talents are like the special ed. faction of the NBA fan base. Most of them are Kobe/Lebron fanboys who more closely resemble teenager girls fawning over Brad Pitt than real basketball fans. Barkeley once said that if you don't like Nash you don't like basketball. I agree. Real fans of the game can appreciate the talents of a Tim Duncan or a Kobe Bryant even if they dislike them personally, and that extends to Nash.

If you can't see that there's something very special about Nash's game then, well like I said, you're very clearly in need of some "special" education. One of the things I appreciated about Spurs fans during last year's playoffs was that the vast majority DID give Nash his props, just as Suns fans gave TD his props, and very rarely descended into the type of reactionary drivel we see in the above post.

Nash is not a top-five-player of all time like TD, but he deserves his fair share of respect.

[mardigan]

Congrats. :clap

This takes the cake for single most asinine post I've read in about a month on any sports board, saving perhaps the "OMG Kobe > Jesus and the prophets!" tripe typical of low-brow enclaves like ESPN. Tony Parker is a terrific talent and well suited to the Spurs team but replace him with Nash and you'd probably sweep every team in the playoffs East and West. It wouldn't even be competitive.

People who don't appreciate Nash's talents are like the special ed. faction of the NBA fan base. Most of them are Kobe/Lebron fanboys who more closely resemble teenager girls fawning over Brad Pitt than real basketball fans. Barkeley once said that if you don't like Nash you don't like basketball. I agree. Real fans of the game can appreciate the talents of a Tim Duncan or a Kobe Bryant even if they dislike them personally, and that extends to Nash.

If you can't see that there's something very special about Nash's game then, well like I said, you're very clearly in need of some "special" education. One of the things I appreciated about Spurs fans during last year's playoffs was that the vast majority DID give Nash his props, just as Suns fans gave TD his props, and very rarely descended into the type of reactionary drivel we see in the above post.

Nash is not a top-five-player of all time like TD, but he deserves his fair share of respect.
Its not that asinine, Tony is 8 years younger, regardless of how good Nash is.

[ambchang]

:lol

What your failing to understand is that even though Bell and Barbosa are shooting MUCH more three pointers than Parker and still have the same shooting percentage outside of three feet, both players are having crappy shooting years. Both have pointed to injuries as an excuse, but the fact is that they have been a little off all year.

However, Suns fans can take solace in the fact that shooting 33% at 3s is the same as shooting 50% from inside the arc, but Spurs fans can't do the same with Parker.

Whats even more telling is how Suns fans are getting upset with Bell and Barbosa for their poor shooting thus far while Spurs fans are trying to convince us that Parker has become a good shooter!!!

NO! HE HASN'T! HE'S ONLY AT 39% OUTSIDE OF THREE FREAKING FEET AND HE DOESN'T EVEN SHOOT THREE POINTERS!!!

What you cannot comprehend is the argument is not about how Bell or Barbosa are shooting more 3s than Parker, but how Parker is shooting a "terrible" percentage outside of 3 feet". You are just changing criteria as you go when it is shown that two of the best shooters on the best shooting team in the league shot the same, or similar % outside of 3 feet as Parker.

If those players are shooting such a high amount of 3 pters that they are being "dragged down" to the level of Parker, don't shoot the ball, you are just making bad decisions.

So now the caveat is that Parker's "ONLY AT 39% OUTSIDE OF THREE FREAKING FEET AND HE DOESN'T EVEN SHOOT THREE POINTERS!!!"

By adding more and more disclaimers on your original argument, you are just changing the target of the conversation.

[ambchang]

Congrats. :clap

This takes the cake for single most asinine post I've read in about a month on any sports board, saving perhaps the "OMG Kobe > Jesus and the prophets!" tripe typical of low-brow enclaves like ESPN. Tony Parker is a terrific talent and well suited to the Spurs team but replace him with Nash and you'd probably sweep every team in the playoffs East and West. It wouldn't even be competitive.

People who don't appreciate Nash's talents are like the special ed. faction of the NBA fan base. Most of them are Kobe/Lebron fanboys who more closely resemble teenager girls fawning over Brad Pitt than real basketball fans. Barkeley once said that if you don't like Nash you don't like basketball. I agree. Real fans of the game can appreciate the talents of a Tim Duncan or a Kobe Bryant even if they dislike them personally, and that extends to Nash.

If you can't see that there's something very special about Nash's game then, well like I said, you're very clearly in need of some "special" education. One of the things I appreciated about Spurs fans during last year's playoffs was that the vast majority DID give Nash his props, just as Suns fans gave TD his props, and very rarely descended into the type of reactionary drivel we see in the above post.

Nash is not a top-five-player of all time like TD, but he deserves his fair share of respect.

Not to say that I wouldn't trade Parker for a 3-year-younger Nash if that were possible, but I am not so sure the Spurs would be vastly improved with Nash over Parker. The Spurs are, afterall, a defensive team that relies on an inside-out offense. Nash would drastically change that as he is quite dominant of the ball and his defense is attrocious even by rec league standards.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

da suns fan, I wanna see you give the spurs props for once

[da_suns_fan]

What you cannot comprehend is the argument is not about how Bell or Barbosa are shooting more 3s than Parker, but how Parker is shooting a "terrible" percentage outside of 3 feet". You are just changing criteria as you go when it is shown that two of the best shooters on the best shooting team in the league shot the same, or similar % outside of 3 feet as Parker.

If those players are shooting such a high amount of 3 pters that they are being "dragged down" to the level of Parker, don't shoot the ball, you are just making bad decisions.

So now the caveat is that Parker's "ONLY AT 39% OUTSIDE OF THREE FREAKING FEET AND HE DOESN'T EVEN SHOOT THREE POINTERS!!!"

By adding more and more disclaimers on your original argument, you are just changing the target of the conversation.

Actually no, Parker is shooting a bad percentage outside of three feet.

So are Barbosa and Bell.

Barbosa and Bell are having bad years (see statitistics).

You guys are claiming that Parker is not.

Are you telling me that Parker is a good shooter? Do you want to say that?

Hell, do you want to say that he's a DECENT shooter?

btw - excuse me for bringing any MATH into the conversation.

Shooting 33% from three point range is the same shooting from 50% inside the arc, but thats too much for you to handle.

We can leave their numbers as they are. All three of them are shooting poorly, yes?

I'll take my chances against Parker's jump shot. You take away his layups, and he's exposed as being completely one dimensional.

By all means, leave Barbosa and Bell open. If there are any Spurs coaches reading this, we'll trade. We'll leave Parker open if you leave either Barbosa or Bell open!!! Sound good? :lol :lol :lol

[da_suns_fan]

da suns fan, I wanna see you give the spurs props for once

Popovic is VERY respectful of his opponents. He doesn't try to play stupid mind games like Phil Jackson and is a very classy guy.

Tim Duncan is also classy and you respect him and his game.

I also respect Bruce Bowen. I don't even consider him dirty. I think he gets away with more than most due to reputation, but he's not trying to cheat. He seems like a nice enough guy.

Ginobili is having an MVP type year and has even cut back on his flopping.

There.

Now where was I?

[Amuseddaysleeper]

:lol


I'm impressed :toast

[da_suns_fan]

you suck at posting

please stay in the suns forum

thank :)

YOU suck at posting.

Please stay out of the suns threads.

Thanks :)

[Gordionot]

his defense is attrocious even by rec league standards.

I disagree. The whole "Nash is to defense what Pauly Shore is to acting" mantra is just a fall-back position for Nash-haters when the inevitable comparisons to Stockton arise. Nash is not a great defender but he's certainly not atrocious. The Spurs are a defensive juggernaut. Throw Nash in the mix and your defense would take a slight dent but your (already stellar) offensive would go supernova. You'd be unstoppable.

Trading for Nash NOW would probably not be a smart move, I agree. Tony Parker is already one of the great point guards in the game and has plenty of time to grow. But throwing in "even if he were three years younger" is, as I said, asinine. The Spurs aren't exactly spring chickens either. A thirty year old Nash with TD, Manu etc. could sleepwalk through the finals.

I think what irritated me about the original post is that it signified a distinct lack of respect. When people like Bill Russel and Larry Bird go out of their way to say that Nash is someone who stands out to them over the past 50 years, and then to have fanboys chime in with Parker >>> Nash! Well, what can I say, as a Suns fan it obviously gets my goat.

[NASHville]

Fuck, just let Suns fan be delusional and think they would've won game 5 last year then.

Whos holding the got damn ring.

Thats right. Step back and stfu.

Stop living in the past. That got damm ring don't mean a thing this year.

[ambchang]

Actually no, Parker is shooting a bad percentage outside of three feet.

So are Barbosa and Bell.

So the two designated shooters on the best (or close to the best) shooting team in the league are bad shooters? Great!


Barbosa and Bell are having bad years (see statitistics).

Bell is not having a particularly bad year, he is slightly below his career averages, and Barbosa is simply getting more attention from defenses and shooting more than he ever has. (see statistics).


You guys are claiming that Parker is not.

Are you telling me that Parker is a good shooter? Do you want to say that?

Hell, do you want to say that he's a DECENT shooter?

Of course, Parker is a decent shooter, and our argument is that Parker is not a "terrible" shooter as you claimed. I would take "terrible" as significantly below average, just like to clear that up with you in case you are mixing up words again like you did with "erratic" and "bad".


btw - excuse me for bringing any MATH into the conversation.

Shooting 33% from three point range is the same shooting from 50% inside the arc, but thats too much for you to handle.

Since when had anybody argued that the expected yield of the two are different? It may have dawned on you as some sort of discovery of the day, but eFG% has been talked about for years. The problem is, we were NEVER talking about eFG%.

BTW, the two things are not "the same", they have the same expected yield, but the results are one have 4 rebounds out of every 6 shots, the other has 3 out of every 6 shots, which has an effect on the flow of the game, but that's too much for you to handle.


We can leave it their numbers as they are. All three of them are shooting poorly, yes?

No I can't, I have different standards as you. To me, Barbosa and Bell are both, at the least, decent shooters. Parker shoots the same % as them outside of 3 feet, therefore, Parker is a decent shooter.


I'll take my chances against Parker's jump shot. You take away his layups, and he's exposed as being completely one dimensional.

Oh my! We have a future coach of the year in the NBA! You know what, no NBA coach has EVER figured out that Parker cuts to the lane and finishes around the basket as good as any PG in the game today and to minimize his effectiveness, one needs to pack the lane. Oh wait, that was 2004, Parker has since improved his jumpshot and has made teams who packed in pay (see series vs. Cleveland). So according to you, his ability to breakdown the defense and passing out to teammates, and his defense are just not even dimensions.

While we are at it, I also just discovered that if you take away Nash's passing lane, dribbling and shooting, he is deemed useless on the court because of his terrible defense, and if you take away Duncan's low post game, high post game, passing, ability to setup teammates w/ picks and defense, he would turn into a terrible one-dimensional 3 point shooter.

:lol Oh, one more, no NBA coach ever figured out that it is better to let a player shoot from the outside than letting him shoot layups all day. Thanks for the revelation, I am going to write a book about it, sell it to professional NBA teams and make millions.

The book will be called: "Secret to good defense: Let players shoot jumpshots rather than layups".


By all means, leave Barbosa and Bell open. If there are any Spurs coaches reading this, we'll trade. We'll leave Parker open is you leave either Barbosa or Bell open!!! Sound good? :lol :lol :lol

Unlike the Suns, the Spurs can defend open shooters and cut off penetration. My mistake, I probably shouldn't talk about defense with you, these things hurt TV ratings.

[ambchang]

I disagree. The whole "Nash is to defense what Pauly Shore is to acting" mantra is just a fall-back position for Nash-haters when the inevitable comparisons to Stockton arise. Nash is not a great defender but he's certainly not atrocious. The Spurs are a defensive juggernaut. Throw Nash in the mix and your defense would take a slight dent but your (already stellar) offensive would go supernova. You'd be unstoppable.

Trading for Nash NOW would probably not be a smart move, I agree. Tony Parker is already one of the great point guards in the game and has plenty of time to grow. But throwing in "even if he were three years younger" is, as I said, asinine. The Spurs aren't exactly spring chickens either. A thirty year old Nash with TD, Manu etc. could sleepwalk through the finals.

I think what irritated me about the original post is that it signified a distinct lack of respect. When people like Bill Russel and Larry Bird go out of their way to say that Nash is someone who stands out to them over the past 50 years, and then to have fanboys chime in with Parker >>> Nash! Well, what can I say, as a Suns fan it obviously gets my goat.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
1) Nash of 3 years ago isn't any better than Nash of now. In fact, today's Nash > Nash of 3 years ago.
2) His defense is terrible, it's not because of Suns haters, it has always been bad, since his Mavs days. And getting lit up by Jacque Vaughn doesn't really speak well of your defense.

[Gordionot]

Unlike the Suns, the Spurs can defend open shooters and cut off penetration. My mistake, I probably shouldn't talk about defense with you, these things hurt TV ratings.

I don't think you're being fair here. As evidenced by the Jazz game and (to a lesser extent) the Spurs game the Suns are perfectly capable of playing quality defense; they tend to do it in spurts -- which admittedly is not enough -- but it's not as though they are incapable of making stops or that they lack gritty and effective defenders.

The biggest problem is D'Antoni. Perhaps I'm being overly optimistic here, but the fact that defense is being stressed by D'Antoni in after-game interviews and (more importantly) by management leads me to believe that the Suns are in the process of altering the "all offense, all the time" philosophy that has plagued them during the playoffs in previous seasons. Offense will always be the greatest strength of the Suns, but a healthy focus on defense could make all the difference. The Suns needn't lose their character, they just have to temper it slightly with a dose of reality.

Another thing that I think Spurs fans are overlooking: as you point out, defending the arc and cutting off penetration (as well as hacking Nash to death) have been the main defensive strategies by the Spurs against the Suns the past few seasons. Well, Grant Hill adds an entirely new dimension, namely the mid-range game -- he can create his own shot and take pressure of Nash.

And for all the talk about KT, I actually think Skinner is an improvement. Duncan's gonna get his anyway. Skinner is much quicker than KT and has tremendous shot-blocking ability. This affects not only Duncan but Parker and Manu as well.

[Cry Havoc]

And for all the talk about KT, I actually think Skinner is an improvement. Duncan's gonna get his anyway. Skinner is much quicker than KT and has tremendous shot-blocking ability. This affects not only Duncan but Parker and Manu as well.

I just had to laugh at this. Sorry, but did you watch the last game? Duncan ripped Skinner's face off and stuffed it in his jersey, handed Skinner a mirror afterwards, and then dropped in a bank shot and got fouled. Simultaneously.

[Gordionot]

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
1) Nash of 3 years ago isn't any better than Nash of now. In fact, today's Nash > Nash of 3 years ago.

This is true, but I was referring specifically to longevity.


His defense is terrible, it's not because of Suns haters, it has always been bad, since his Mavs days. And getting lit up by Jacque Vaughn doesn't really speak well of your defense.

His defense has improved steadily over the years. Like I said, not great, but not terrible either: he leads the league in charges, he's willing to put his scrawny body on the line against everyone from Yao to Shaq, he's surprisingly wily at times (which I guess shouldn't be surprising), he snags a bizarre number of rebounds for someone his size, he puts in the effort. Again, not trying to suggest he's a great defender, but he gets the job done.

There was an interesting interview (in GQ? I forget) in which the interviewer asked how he could improve his game. Defense obviously came up, being the only aspect of his game that actually needs improving (along with dunking ;) He basically said that his coach and teammates prefer he devote most of his energy to coordinating the offense. Which makes sense. It's the hand he was dealt. There are lots of solid defenders on the Suns' squad. Let Nash work his magic on the other end of the court.

And btw, I DO think the comparisons to Stockton are unfair. Stockton only passed as well as Nash in the wildest of his dreams.

[ambchang]

[I]I don't think you're being fair here. As evidenced by the Jazz game and (to a lesser extent) the Spurs game the Suns are perfectly capable of playing quality defense; they tend to do it in spurts -- which admittedly is not enough -- but it's not as though they are incapable of making stops or that they lack gritty and effective defenders.

The biggest problem is D'Antoni. Perhaps I'm being overly optimistic here, but the fact that defense is being stressed by D'Antoni in after-game interviews and (more importantly) by management leads me to believe that the Suns are in the process of altering the "all offense, all the time" philosophy that has plagued them during the playoffs in previous seasons. Offense will always be the greatest strength of the Suns, but a healthy focus on defense could make all the difference. The Suns needn't lose their character, they just have to temper it slightly with a dose of reality.

Another thing that I think Spurs fans are overlooking: as you point out, defending the arc and cutting off penetration (as well as hacking Nash to death) have been the main defensive strategies by the Spurs against the Suns the past few seasons. Well, Grant Hill adds an entirely new dimension, namely the mid-range game -- he can create his own shot and take pressure of Nash.

And for all the talk about KT, I actually think Skinner is an improvement. Duncan's gonna get his anyway. Skinner is much quicker than KT and has tremendous shot-blocking ability. This affects not only Duncan but Parker and Manu as well.

I do acknowledge Suns are more than capable of playing defense, as witnessed by their decent defensive numbers at the start of both last and this season, it's just that by playing a short rotation, it is extremely difficult for the team to excel at both ends of the court for the whole season, especially when you have to cover for Nash and Stoudemire (more on this later). When push comes to shove, we all know which side of the court D'antoni will choose to concentrate on.

Speaking of Stoudemire, he is probably the worst defender in the league given his athleticism. I cannot understand it, he is strong, quick, coordinated, has great hands, can jump out of the gym, and yet he cannot understand a thing about boxing out, defensive positions and rotations. It is frustrating watching him play, as he has all the physical tools to be the next David Robinson on defense, but he just turned out to be a tool on defense.

Skinner is full of enthusiasm, and I would love to have some guy like that on the Spurs (man, I would trade Cisco for him in a heartbeat), but he is not as physical with Duncan, and we have known the only way to slow down Duncan is to rough him up, make him expend energy and tire him out as the series goes on. Skinner just isn't that good at that part of the game.

Finally, I agree with the Hill assessment, his mid-range game will present problems for the Spurs, as the whole Spurs defense is geared towards making other teams make long 2s (reason why the Mavs pose such a problem for the Spurs). Stoudemire and Nash both have a good midrange shot (great for Nash), and by adding Hill, there will be 3 players that the Spurs would have to adjust their defense around. However, all three are also terrible defenders, and the Spurs will get theirs. look at last year's playoffs, outside of Games 2 and 5, the Spurs have scored an unusually high number of points (Game 2 the Spurs couldn't throw the ball in the ocean, Game 5, the absence of Stoudemire took a huge part of that in-between game of the Suns, and forced both teams into a defensive battle).

[vicphoenix]

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
1) Nash of 3 years ago isn't any better than Nash of now. In fact, today's Nash > Nash of 3 years ago.
2) His defense is terrible, it's not because of Suns haters, it has always been bad, since his Mavs days. And getting lit up by Jacque Vaughn doesn't really speak well of your defense.

I don't think you were watching the game. Nash was playing against Bowen on defense the whole game. How many points did Bowen score? I am not saying Nash is a great defender, but he unfairly gets accused of poor defense way too often. Its like Nash is the only superstar in the NBA who gets scrutinized on the apparent lack of defense. How about all the times when he totally outplays the opposing point guard?

[ambchang]

This is true, but I was referring specifically to longevity.

His defense has improved steadily over the years. Like I said, not great, but not terrible either: he leads the league in charges, he's willing to put his scrawny body on the line against everyone from Yao to Shaq, he's surprisingly wily at times (which I guess shouldn't be surprising), he snags a bizarre number of rebounds for someone his size, he puts in the effort. Again, not trying to suggest he's a great defender, but he gets the job done.

There was an interesting interview (in GQ? I forget) in which the interviewer asked how he could improve his game. Defense obviously came up, being the only aspect of his game that actually needs improving (along with dunking ;) He basically said that his coach and teammates prefer he devote most of his energy to coordinating the offense. Which makes sense. It's the hand he was dealt. There are lots of solid defenders on the Suns' squad. Let Nash work his magic on the other end of the court.

And btw, I DO think the comparisons to Stockton are unfair. Stockton only passed as well as Nash in the wildest of his dreams.

Nash getting charges was actually a dangerous thing to see. While I applaud his courage in sacrificing his body for the good of the team, most of those charges were actually blocking fouls. He rotates late, gets hit and falls down, there are many times where I legitimately thought someone would be injured in the play.

Stockton was a fantastic passer, he may have been more of a half-court passer, and his numbers were a result of the system, but there is no denying that Stockton is one of the top 5 passers in the history of the league. I think Nash's passing is more similar to Magic's. Very creative, out of nowhere passes, and very often on the move. I have to admit it is a thing of absolute beauty.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

I do acknowledge Suns are more than capable of playing defense, as witnessed by their decent defensive numbers at the start of both last and this season, it's just that by playing a short rotation, it is extremely difficult for the team to excel at both ends of the court for the whole season, especially when you have to cover for Nash and Stoudemire (more on this later). When push comes to shove, we all know which side of the court D'antoni will choose to concentrate on.

Speaking of Stoudemire, he is probably the worst defender in the league given his athleticism. I cannot understand it, he is strong, quick, coordinated, has great hands, can jump out of the gym, and yet he cannot understand a thing about boxing out, defensive positions and rotations. It is frustrating watching him play, as he has all the physical tools to be the next David Robinson on defense, but he just turned out to be a tool on defense.

Skinner is full of enthusiasm, and I would love to have some guy like that on the Spurs (man, I would trade Cisco for him in a heartbeat), but he is not as physical with Duncan, and we have known the only way to slow down Duncan is to rough him up, make him expend energy and tire him out as the series goes on. Skinner just isn't that good at that part of the game.

Finally, I agree with the Hill assessment, his mid-range game will present problems for the Spurs, as the whole Spurs defense is geared towards making other teams make long 2s (reason why the Mavs pose such a problem for the Spurs). Stoudemire and Nash both have a good midrange shot (great for Nash), and by adding Hill, there will be 3 players that the Spurs would have to adjust their defense around. However, all three are also terrible defenders, and the Spurs will get theirs. look at last year's playoffs, outside of Games 2 and 5, the Spurs have scored an unusually high number of points (Game 2 the Spurs couldn't throw the ball in the ocean, Game 5, the absence of Stoudemire took a huge part of that in-between game of the Suns, and forced both teams into a defensive battle).

Totally agree with what you said about Amare. I mean he was getting absolutely raped by Duncan, and has been consistently abused throughout the season. O'Neal (both of them), Dwight Howard, Yao, Al Jefferson, Paul Millsap, Tyson Chandler, etc. have all abused him, especially on the boards.

And as bad as his defense has been, his rebounding is even worse. There's absolutely no excuse for a player his size with his ability to not be getting at least 10 per game, if not even more. He really needs to take a page out of Marion's book; despite being greatly undersized, Shawn plays with so much hustle that he racks up the boards.

But I'm not so sure this can just be totally attributed to laziness. Amare, while dumb as hell (read Seven Seconds or Less for insight on his intelligence, let's just say he's lucky as hell he's talented at basketball), doesn't seem to be your typical Zach Randolph, Antoine Walker, Ricky Davis loafer. He's in very good shape, and he always shows up to play in the postseason.

I really think that he's terrified about reinjuring his knee. He doesn't use that spin move that he was so great at in '04-'05, and never puts stress on his knees. This could be one of the reasons he has trouble rebounding and playing defense. While he's still a 20 ppg scorer, he shoots alot more jumpers, and you don't seem him attack the basket and elevate with the same fury he had pre-injury. It's really a shame to, because if he hadn't gotten injured he was clearly destined for the all time greats.

[ambchang]

I don't think you were watching the game. Nash was playing against Bowen on defense the whole game. How many points did Bowen score? I am not saying Nash is a great defender, but he unfairly gets accused of poor defense way too often. Its like Nash is the only superstar in the NBA who gets scrutinized on the apparent lack of defense. How about all the times when he totally outplays the opposing point guard?

Jacque Vaughn comment was tongue-in-cheek, probably should made it more apparent, because if I remember correctly, Vaughn still holds the record for opening the season with the most misses (something like 0-21) back in his Atlanta days.

BTW, putting Nash on Bowen was the other thing, Bowen is TERRIBLE on offense, I would say even worse than Nash on defense. He has added that ugly drive to his game and is using it more, but it kills me to see him dribble. I love him as a Spur as he is definitely one of the biggest reasons for the Spurs recent success, but man, I have seen 5 year olds dribble better than Bowen.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Nash getting charges was actually a dangerous thing to see. While I applaud his courage in sacrificing his body for the good of the team, most of those charges were actually blocking fouls. He rotates late, gets hit and falls down, there are many times where I legitimately thought someone would be injured in the play.

Stockton was a fantastic passer, he may have been more of a half-court passer, and his numbers were a result of the system, but there is no denying that Stockton is one of the top 5 passers in the history of the league. I think Nash's passing is more similar to Magic's. Very creative, out of nowhere passes, and very often on the move. I have to admit it is a thing of absolute beauty.

I remember last year after he had missed a handful of games with a nasty shoulder/back injury, the first game back he takes a very hard charge from Elton Brand. While the announcers rightfully praised his heart, sometimes he just has to learn how to preserve his body.

And one of the reasons why he gets alot of charges is IMO because of his size. When they see a guy as big as Brand hit a guy as little as Nash, it looks much worse than if the player had hit someone like Baron Davis or Deron Williams.

[Gordionot]

I just had to laugh at this. Sorry, but did you watch the last game? Duncan ripped Skinner's face off and stuffed it in his jersey, handed Skinner a mirror afterwards, and then dropped in a bank shot and got fouled. Simultaneously.

Well, he basically did the same thing to KT. Like I said, Duncan is going to get his any way you shake it. The best you can hope for is to occasionally discombobulate him. There's no one in the league that can stop Tim Duncan. He's arguably the best player PERIOD. He USES THE FUCKING GLASS. Which is a rarity ;)

But Skinner is speedy Gonzales compared to KT, and he has much better shot-blocking ability. So I stick by my original assessment that he's a step up.

[vicphoenix]

Jacque Vaughn comment was tongue-in-cheek, probably should made it more apparent, because if I remember correctly, Vaughn still holds the record for opening the season with the most misses (something like 0-21) back in his Atlanta days.

BTW, putting Nash on Bowen was the other thing, Bowen is TERRIBLE on offense, I would say even worse than Nash on defense. He has added that ugly drive to his game and is using it more, but it kills me to see him dribble. I love him as a Spur as he is definitely one of the biggest reasons for the Spurs recent success, but man, I have seen 5 year olds dribble better than Bowen.

I think you're underestimating Bowen's offensive abilities. He is a deadly shooter from the corner three. When Parker and Duncan were gone during the Lakers game last week, he put up 22 points. Nash had to be playing decent defense for Bowen not to score at all.

[ambchang]

I think you're underestimating Bowen's offensive abilities. He is a deadly shooter from the corner three. When Parker and Duncan were gone during the Lakers game last week, he put up 22 points. Nash had to be playing decent defense for Bowen not to score at all.
Hmm ... i would say it's almost impossible to underestimate Bowen's offensive abilities. Yes, he can nail the corner three, and that is it. He can't dribble, shoot off the drive (he has been adding that this year, but I would rather him not, he isn't even that good, or shoot anywhere else basically. Bowen has 4 games where he has scored zero points this season, this compares to 5 games in double figures, including the 22 and 23 pt games vs. the Lakers (Why is it always the Lakers he get these 20 point games? I would never understand why, it's not like the Lakers like to leave Bowen open more than other team does).

It really isn't that hard to make him a total non-factor, just don't double Duncan (which was what the Suns did in the 1st 3 quarters), don't pack the lanes to prevent Ginobili and/or Parker drives, and make the 3 pt shooters beat you.

Again, I love Bruce, but if Bruce was an offensive factor, he would have been multiple all-stars and a dream-teamer.

[Shred]

I'm judging by the fact this thread has gone 4 pages that the Suns are hardly worth a moment's thought from Spur fan.

[m33p0]

I just had to laugh at this. Sorry, but did you watch the last game? Duncan ripped Skinner's face off and stuffed it in his jersey, handed Skinner a mirror afterwards, and then dropped in a bank shot and got fouled. Simultaneously.

Well, he basically did the same thing to KT. Like I said, Duncan is going to get his any way you shake it. The best you can hope for is to occasionally discombobulate him. There's no one in the league that can stop Tim Duncan. He's arguably the best player PERIOD. He USES THE FUCKING GLASS. Which is a rarity ;)

But Skinner is speedy Gonzales compared to KT, and he has much better shot-blocking ability. So I stick by my original assessment that he's a step up.

:tu

[ambchang]

I'm judging by the fact this thread has gone 4 pages that the Suns are hardly worth a moment's thought from Spur fan.

I'm judging by the fact your post count has hit 489 that the Spurs are hardly worth a moment's thought from you.