LeBron James is youngest player to score 9000 points in NBA History

[TampaDude]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=271217005 :toast

[Ronaldo McDonald]

crazy

[TBMTF]

Considering he was 18/19 when he went in, this should be no surprise.

[duncan228]

He took the "title" from Kobe.
Does anyone know how many games it took LeBron to get 9000 points vs. how many games it took Kobe?

[SAtown]

...witness...

[SpursDynasty]

Only because he didn't go to college.

Also, the record should be for least amount of jump shots needed for 9,000 points....LeBron wouldn't get that record. He takes too many bricks.

[atxrocker]

fuck lebron james.

[anakha]

Only because he didn't go to college.

Also, the record should be for least amount of jump shots needed for 9,000 points....LeBron wouldn't get that record. He takes too many bricks.

Kobe went to college? News to me.

[batboy]

What an arbitrary stat. 9000?

Having said that, I wonder how long it took Garnett.

[stretch]

He took the "title" from Kobe.
Does anyone know how many games it took LeBron to get 9000 points vs. how many games it took Kobe?
Probably less, because Lebron had much higher scoring averages in his early seasons than Kobe had. Kobe didn't average 30 ppg until his 7th year, and 20 ppg until his 3rd year (technically, 4th, but 19.9 is close enough to say 3rd. it was also the lockout year.) Lebron averaged 21 ppg in his rookie year, 27 in his second, and 31 by his third season.

[ducks]

humm not hold to do when you are a ballhog

[dickface]

humm not hold to do when you are a ballhog
die

[Cry Havoc]

He took the "title" from Kobe.
Does anyone know how many games it took LeBron to get 9000 points vs. how many games it took Kobe?

By my calculations (which is an estimate), Kobe reached his 9000th point AROUND game 476, in the late 3rd or early 4th quarter of the 2002-03 season.

James has completed that in 336 games. Astonishing.

[ducks]

By my calculations (which is an estimate), Kobe reached his 9000th point AROUND game 476, in the late 3rd or early 4th quarter of the 2002-03 season.

James has completed that in 336 games. Astonishing.
why he shots almost half their shots if not more since he joined them

[dickface]

why he shots almost half their shots if not more since he joined them
who would you rather be taking shots on that team? and he's averaging over 6 assists a game for his career, almost 8 per game this season.

[Cry Havoc]

why he shots almost half their shots if not more since he joined them

Please learn a modicum of English so people can understand your idiocy more properly.

[Magic_Johnson]

He took the "title" from Kobe.
Does anyone know how many games it took LeBron to get 9000 points vs. how many games it took Kobe?

it's not comparable.
Kobe had shaq, he took less shoot.

[Cry Havoc]

I suck.

[stretch]

who would you rather be taking shots on that team? and he's averaging over 6 assists a game for his career, almost 8 per game this season.
Not to mention, Kobe always had better teams surrounding him, in particular, dangerous 3 pt shooters and Shaq to free things up for him, and he didn't score NEARLY as much as Lebron (partly because he didnt have to), but he also didn't ever average as many assists as Lebron. The MOST APG that Kobe has ever had was 6. The LEAST that Lebron has had was 5.9, in his rookie year, and Lebron has consistently had a TERRIBLE team around him. Imagine how many assists he would rack up throwing passes to a Shaq in his prime, or driving and dishing them out to guys like Rick Fox and Derek Fisher? He would average over 10 a game, EASILY, and still average around 28-30 ppg. If his guys on this team would knock down just a few more shots a game (shots that guys like Fox and Fisher would make every time) he would average over 10 a game right now. His team is complete garbage.

[duncan228]

Thanks stretch and Cry Havoc.

I figured LeBron would have gotten there faster, he has been the Cavs main offense since he got there.

It was late, I was too tired to try to find the stats.

Thanks for the help.

[Spurminator]

He's also the youngest to 9,004!

[stretch]

He's also the youngest to 9,004!
9003, 9002, and 9001 as well. Amazing, isn't it?

[TheNextGen]

He took the "title" from Kobe.
Does anyone know how many games it took LeBron to get 9000 points vs. how many games it took Kobe?

Kobe wasnt a starter his first year.

[Cry Havoc]

Kobe wasnt a starter his first year.

Which is a testament to how amazing of a player LeBron James was at 18 years old. If the start of his NBA career is that high, I can only imagine what he will be like when he is as old as Kobe is now.

James is already a better teammate than Kobe has ever been, and is arguably the equal in individual skills.

[TheNextGen]

Which is a testament to how amazing of a player LeBron James was at 18 years old. If the start of his NBA career is that high, I can only imagine what he will be like when he is as old as Kobe is now.

James is already a better teammate than Kobe has ever been, and is arguably the equal in individual skills.

Individual Skills? You must be joking.

[Cry Havoc]

Individual Skills? You must be joking.

I'm not. LeBron is already the better floor general. He has better offensive awareness, he is a much better passer than Kobe, and Lebron is also shooting 48.5% this season. The highest Kobe has EVER shot in a season is 46.9%. James is already a better rebounder than Kobe will ever be, and is averaging more steals per season than Kobe does, career-wise, although they are probably equal in steals now.

And yes, it's obvious that Kobe is the better defender. However, James is vastly improving the less-than-stellar aspects of his game.

So where does that leave us?

Kobe is the better defender. LeBron is a better shooter, passer, and rebounder. He's also only 22, so is still improving with every game. I think you recall how the Cavs did in the absence of LeBron.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

By my calculations (which is an estimate), Kobe reached his 9000th point AROUND game 476, in the late 3rd or early 4th quarter of the 2002-03 season.

James has completed that in 336 games. Astonishing.

kobe had shaq on his team. it's highly probable that he would have done what lebron james did in less time if he was surrounded by a shitty cast and took as mucha offensive load as Lebronze.

[TheNextGen]

Kobe is the better defender. LeBron is a better shooter, passer, and rebounder. He's also only 22, so is still improving with every game. I think you recall how the Cavs did in the absence of LeBron.

Lebron is a better paser and rebounder. Thats it. No way Lebron out shoots Kobe. Lebron can barely make a 3.

[TheNextGen]

kobe had shaq on his team. it's highly probable that he would have done what lebron james did in less time if he was surrounded by a shitty cast and took as mucha offensive load as Lebronze.


Exactly...kobe has won 2 out of the 3 seasons without Shaq as the leading scorer in the NBA. That just shows how much more of a scorer Kobe is.

[Cry Havoc]

kobe had shaq on his team. it's highly probable that he would have done what lebron james did in less time if he was surrounded by a shitty cast and took as mucha offensive load as Lebronze.

Kobe didn't even START for his teams the first two years in the league. James would have been the best player on the Cavs if they would have drafted him a full 365 days before they did, when LeBron was a Junior in high school. Kobe averaged 7.6 PPG in his first year in the league. Oh man, you're right. He was SO dominant! :lol

Where is Kobe's WCF appearance? 2nd round?

Oh, right. The Lakers can't get out of the first round. But LeBron took his "shitty cast" to the Finals.

Thanks for backing up my argument. :toast


Lebron is a better paser and rebounder. Thats it. No way Lebron out shoots Kobe. Lebron can barely make a 3.

And yet he's shooting almost 4 full percentage points higher than Kobe is this year.

Which tells us that either LeBron is a better shooter,
or a smarter shooter.

You know, it's amazing the backwards logic you guys use. Kobe has better teammates and is a better shooter, yet his career best is far below what LeBron is doing this season. Wow, so LeBron is shooting almost 50% and 30 ppg with NO ONE ELSE on his team? He's getting almost 8 dimes a game with NO ONE ELSE ON HIS TEAM?

You guys should be happy he's got shit for a team. If he had Duncan, Shaq, Boozer, etc., he'd average 10+ assists per game, shoot over 50% and then the debate wouldn't be if they're equal, but how much farther ahead of Kobe LeBron is.


Exactly...kobe has won 2 out of the 3 seasons without Shaq as the leading scorer in the NBA. That just shows how much more of a scorer Kobe is.

Ah yes. Scoring titles make you a better player overall. Just like MVPs make Steve Nash an accomplished defender. :lol

[stretch]

I'm not. LeBron is already the better floor general. He has better offensive awareness, he is a much better passer than Kobe, and Lebron is also shooting 48.5% this season. The highest Kobe has EVER shot in a season is 46.9%. James is already a better rebounder than Kobe will ever be, and is averaging more steals per season than Kobe does, career-wise, although they are probably equal in steals now.

And yes, it's obvious that Kobe is the better defender. However, James is vastly improving the less-than-stellar aspects of his game.

So where does that leave us?

Kobe is the better defender. LeBron is a better shooter, passer, and rebounder. He's also only 22, so is still improving with every game. I think you recall how the Cavs did in the absence of LeBron.
I'd say the only things that Kobe is flat out better than Lebron in is shooting ability, and defense, but Lebron is improving in those areas quickly. The shooting ability allows Kobe to be a little more of an explosive scorer, but I'd still say Lebron is a better basketball player.

[stretch]

kobe had shaq on his team. it's highly probable that he would have done what lebron james did in less time if he was surrounded by a shitty cast and took as mucha offensive load as Lebronze.
Lebron is a MUCH smarter shooter than Kobe, so I don't know about that, especially considering how immature of a player Kobe was back then. His shot selection is bad now, imagine how bad it would have been back then, if he had the freedom that Lebron has. He would have basically been what Baron Davis is now. A guy that can score 50 at any time, but will also have plenty 2-18 nights for 10 points. That's something you don't have to worry about with Lebron.

[monosylab1k]

LeBron has better shot selection and gets alot more of his points by muscling his way to the basket, which is why his FG% is higher. But he's not a great jump shooter. When he gets hot he's deadly, but he doesn't have nearly as many offensive moves as Kobe does because people don't fear his jumper.

Kobe is a great shooter, IMO. He just takes waaaaaaaaaaaay too many ridiculous shots and he takes them off-balance all the time. Which is dumb and his own fault, I know. But when it comes to straight up pure shooting ability, I'd say Kobe is almost up there with Michael Redd, Dirk, Nash, etc.

Kobe is by far a better shooter than LeBron. If they're playing each other in a game of HORSE, Kobe wins that 10 times out of 10. 100 times out of 100.

That said, I'll take LeBron any day over Kobe.

[stretch]

LeBron has better shot selection and gets alot more of his points by muscling his way to the basket, which is why his FG% is higher. But he's not a great jump shooter. When he gets hot he's deadly, but he doesn't have nearly as many offensive moves as Kobe does because people don't fear his jumper.

Kobe is a great shooter, IMO. He just takes waaaaaaaaaaaay too many ridiculous shots and he takes them off-balance all the time. Which is dumb and his own fault, I know. But when it comes to straight up pure shooting ability, I'd say Kobe is almost up there with Michael Redd, Dirk, Nash, etc.

Kobe is by far a better shooter than LeBron. If they're playing each other in a game of HORSE, Kobe wins that 10 times out of 10. 100 times out of 100.

That said, I'll take LeBron any day over Kobe.
Yea, Kobe has a hell of a jumpshot. T-Mac too. They are really two of the best jumpshooters in the NBA, but they shoot too many heavily contested, off-balance shots, thus lowering their percentages.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

Kobe didn't even START for his teams the first two years in the league. James would have been the best player on the Cavs if they would have drafted him a full 365 days before they did, when LeBron was a Junior in high school. Kobe averaged 7.6 PPG in his first year in the league. Oh man, you're right. He was SO dominant! :lol

Where is Kobe's WCF appearance? 2nd round?

Oh, right. The Lakers can't get out of the first round. But LeBron took his "shitty cast" to the Finals.

Thanks for backing up my argument. :toast

i simply said kobe wasn't "da man" in la and the shit ur bringing up now is complely irrelevent to my point.

I will say something in kobe's defense:

kobe came into the league when the success of the transition of highschool players into NBA was almost unheard of, extremely rare.

guys like him, tmac, KG, and Jermain o'neal to a lesser extent, with their great success, have really changed everybody's preconcieved notions and attitudes about the players jumping from highschool to the nba. w/o their success maybe Lebron doesn't break the record. their success raised the confidence of coaches and gm's around the league in future 18 year olds and as a consequence a guy like lebron isn't chained to the bench his first year/two years but given an almost immediate, if not immediate, oppurtunity to showcase his skills.

[Cry Havoc]

Kobe is a great shooter, IMO. He just takes waaaaaaaaaaaay too many ridiculous shots and he takes them off-balance all the time.

I can't help but boggle at this statement.

You cannot be a great shooter if you take a ton of horrible, contested, ill-timed, off-balance shots. They counteract each other. That's like calling a baseball player a great hitter because he hits 50 home runs a year, but bats .228 and strikes out 160 times a season. Forgive the cross-sports analogy, but if you take idiotic shots ALL THE TIME, you are not a great shooter. You are a player with a great -shot-, who has the POTENTIAL to be a great shooter, but it doesn't matter in the end, because Kobe is shooting under 45% and under 33% from three this season.

The net doesn't care if you shot it from half-court or from one toe or you were hanging upside down when you shot. If you miss a lot (read: large percentage) of shots, you cannot be a good shooter. Period.

[Cry Havoc]

i simply said kobe wasn't "da man" in la and the shit ur bringing up now is complely irrelevent to my point.

You stated that Kobe could have done what LeBron did. I pointed out that he was a bench warming role player, at best, his first year in the league.


I will say something in kobe's defense:

kobe came into the league when the success of the transition of highschool players into NBA was almost unheard of, extremely rare.

guys like him, tmac, KG, and Jermain o'neal to a lesser extent, with their great success, have really changed everybody's preconcieved notions and attitudes about the players jumping from highschool to the nba. w/o their success maybe Lebron doesn't break the record. their success raised the confidence of coaches and gm's around the league in future 18 year olds and as a consequence a guy like lebron isn't chained to the bench his first year/two years but given an almost immediate, if not immediate, oppurtunity to showcase his skills.

LeBron James was the most hyped athlete in the history of United States sports. While I see your point, and agree that the hype might not have been quite so high without Kobe and KG (who is mostly responsible for the high-school hype), but that said, there aren't too many 6'8" 245 lb 17 year olds who can run point. He would have been huge either way. In fact, he might have had BETTER numbers without all that hype, because teams would have underestimated him, instead of immediately saying, "Ok, this guy is the next MJ-level player, we have to shut him down."

[monosylab1k]

I can't help but boggle at this statement.

You cannot be a great shooter if you take a ton of horrible, contested, ill-timed, off-balance shots. They counteract each other. That's like calling a baseball player a great hitter because he hits 50 home runs a year, but bats .228 and strikes out 160 times a season. Forgive the cross-sports analogy, but if you take idiotic shots ALL THE TIME, you are not a great shooter. You are a player with a great -shot-, who has the POTENTIAL to be a great shooter, but it doesn't matter in the end, because Kobe is shooting under 45% and under 33% from three this season.

The net doesn't care if you shot it from half-court or from one toe or you were hanging upside down when you shot. If you miss a lot (read: large percentage) of shots, you cannot be a good shooter. Period.
so Shaq is a great shooter?

[Ronaldo McDonald]

LeBron James was the most hyped athlete in the history of United States sports. While I see your point, and agree that the hype might not have been quite so high without Kobe and KG (who is mostly responsible for the high-school hype), but that said, there aren't too many 6'8" 245 lb 17 year olds who can run point. He would have been huge either way. In fact, he might have had BETTER numbers without all that hype, because teams would have underestimated him, instead of immediately saying, "Ok, this guy is the next MJ-level player, we have to shut him down."

i was gearing my argument more toward the effects of the hype and way we value highschool players now and how all that would change the kobe's numbers his first two years in the league moreso than the lack of all that and how it would affect lebronzes numbers if he came out back then (when there is was less value placed on 18 year olds)

[monosylab1k]

and a more proper baseball analogy is a guy that hits .300 with 50 homers but strikes out 150+ times a year. Just because he doesn't judge pitches well doesn't mean he can't hit.

[monosylab1k]

let's introduce everyone to the best shooter in the league this year. after all, he leads the league in FG%.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=2427

That's right, it's that deadeye marksman Andris Biedrins. What a shooter!

[Ronaldo McDonald]

I can't help but boggle at this statement.

You cannot be a great shooter if you take a ton of horrible, contested, ill-timed, off-balance shots. They counteract each other. That's like calling a baseball player a great hitter because he hits 50 home runs a year, but bats .228 and strikes out 160 times a season. Forgive the cross-sports analogy, but if you take idiotic shots ALL THE TIME, you are not a great shooter. You are a player with a great -shot-, who has the POTENTIAL to be a great shooter, but it doesn't matter in the end, because Kobe is shooting under 45% and under 33% from three this season.

The net doesn't care if you shot it from half-court or from one toe or you were hanging upside down when you shot. If you miss a lot (read: large percentage) of shots, you cannot be a good shooter. Period.

no. someone who takes ill advised shots is not a bad shooter, just someone who has bad shot selection.

for instance, if one player took half of his hots from behind half-court and altogether shot 25 percent and another player shot normal shots and hit 50 percent would the former be worse at shooting?

[Cry Havoc]

so Shaq is a great shooter?

No, thats not the same thing. You can be a bad shooter and shoot a high percentage. You cannot be an awesome shooter who shoots a low percentage consistently over the course of a career. Bad seasons are fine. Repeated seasons of under 45% is not, when you are talking about GREAT shooting.

And having said that, Shaq is pretty smart with his shot selection. You don't see him bombing away from 35 feet as hes falling out of bounds.


no. someone who takes ill advised shots is not a bad shooter, just someone who has bad shot selection.

Wow, really? So shot selection doesn't matter then? That's strange. I always thought a quality of a GOOD SHOOTER was someone who knew when to take the shot and what was beyond his capabilities. Silly me! I was associating making a lot of attempted shots with good shooting, when in reality it's just the potential you have, and not what you actually do on the court that matters! In that stead, the Spurs should trade for JJ Redick, since he can hit shots from 29 feet out at about 30%.


for instance, if one player took half of his hots from behind half-court and altogether shot 25 percent and another player shot normal shots and hit 50 percent would the former be worse at shooting?

Hmm. I don't know, who would you rather have on your team? I'm sure the Suns fans would want the former.... he'd be great for ratings.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

Wow, really? So shot selection doesn't matter then? That's strange. I always thought a quality of a GOOD SHOOTER was someone who knew when to take the shot and what was beyond his capabilities. Silly me! I was associating making a lot of attempted shots with good shooting, when in reality it's just the potential you have, and not what you actually do on the court that matters! In that stead, the Spurs should trade for JJ Redick, since he can hit shots from 29 feet out at about 30%.

we'll agree to disagree then since ur definition of a good shooter conflicts with mine.

a good shooter knows how to shoot not when to shoot necessarily imo

i've never heard of anyone say anything different

[monosylab1k]

I always thought a quality of a GOOD SHOOTER was someone who knew when to take the shot and what was beyond his capabilities.
no, that's a SMART SHOOTER, not a GOOD SHOOTER. Kobe is a good shooter. He is not a smart shooter.

Kobe can make it from anywhere within reason on the court, just as well as Dirk, Redd, Ray Allen, etc, which means he is JUST AS GOOD A SHOOTER AS THEM, but he doesn't take SMART SHOTS which means he's NOT AS SMART A SHOOTER AS THEM.

[Cry Havoc]

no, that's a SMART SHOOTER, not a GOOD SHOOTER. Kobe is a good shooter. He is not a smart shooter.

Kobe can make it from anywhere within reason on the court, just as well as Dirk, Redd, Ray Allen, etc, which means he is JUST AS GOOD A SHOOTER AS THEM, but he doesn't take SMART SHOTS which means he's NOT AS SMART A SHOOTER AS THEM.

Okay then, but since he takes asinine shots, and LeBron takes fewer crazy ones, it means LeBron is an overall BETTER shooter than Kobe, because he's SMARTER. And he makes more of his shots. If you make 80% of the shots in your range, but have a poor shooting percentage because you throw shit up you shouldn't, it's wasting that 80%, therefore it might as well not exist.

[monosylab1k]

Okay then, but since he takes asinine shots, and LeBron takes fewer crazy ones, it means LeBron is an overall BETTER shooter than Kobe, because he's SMARTER. And he makes more of his shots. Period.
no. Kobe is a far better shooter than LeBron. far far far far far better shooter. LeBron gets alot of his points close to the basket like Shaq. He is an okay shooter and he is a far far far far far smarter shooter than Kobe.

Like I said, Kobe would beat LeBron in HORSE 100 times out of 100. But the NBA isn't HORSE, which is why, even tho Kobe is a better shooter, I'll take LeBron any day over him.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

Okay then, but since he takes asinine shots, and LeBron takes fewer crazy ones, it means LeBron is an overall BETTER shooter than Kobe, because he's SMARTER. And he makes more of his shots. If you make 80% of the shots in your range, but have a poor shooting percentage because you throw shit up you shouldn't, it's wasting that 80%, therefore it might as well not exist.

lmfao

[TheNextGen]

lol..i guess centers in the league are the best "shooters"

[stretch]

How about this... we can all agree at least that whether you think taking smart shots means you are a good shooter or not, Kobe has great shooting ABILITY. I think that would be a better choice of words to use. Kobe is not a smart shooter at all, but he has outrageous shooting abilities, up there with the best shooters in the league.

[Cry Havoc]

How about this... we can all agree at least that whether you think taking smart shots means you are a good shooter or not, Kobe has great shooting ABILITY. I think that would be a better choice of words to use. Kobe is not a smart shooter at all, but he has outrageous shooting abilities, up there with the best shooters in the league.

That is a much better way to phrase it.

You cannot be "good" at something if you do it poorly. You cannot be amazing at something if you end up being average every year at it.

[Cry Havoc]

lol..i guess centers in the league are the best "shooters"

Centers have nothing to do with this. We are discussing two players who spend most of their time on the perimeter.

Besides, the original point was that LeBron is already the equal of Kobe in terms of overall skill.

[BonnerDynasty]

Fuck any player who shoves his coach.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

like i said before a good shooter knows how to shoot not when to shoot or where to shoot the ball from.

here's an analogy:

A takes test B
C takes test D
test D has the same types of problems that test B has but includes more and harder problems.

A gets 90% of the problems right
C gets 50% of the problems right

C got every single problem right that A got right, but he got a lower % due to the harder problems.

Who is smarter?

[Cry Havoc]

like i said before a good shooter knows how to shoot not when to shoot or where to shoot the ball from.

here's an analogy:

A takes test B
C takes test D
test D has the same types of problems that test B has but includes more and harder problems.

A gets 90% of the problems right
C gets 50% of the problems right

C got every single problem right that A got right, but he got a lower % due to the harder problems.

Who is smarter?

That analogy only works if you tell the smarter student beforehand that one test is difficult and the other is not, and that the relative difficulty of tests do NOT matter, only attaining the highest score possible is the goal. Then, the smarter student STILL opts to take the harder test and does poorly on it, even though he was given the option of the easier one.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Just a quick question: How many good shooters struggle at the FT line?

And by the arguments in here, Tony Parker and Shawn Marion are better shooters than LeBron or Kobe.

[Medvedenko]

I haven't chimed in yet.....Lebron is awesome...but a better overall player no.....through up stats all you want because they don't always paint the whole picture.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

i'm done with this if u want to keep saying that decision making of when and where to take the shot has to do with shooting ability ur an idiot.

[Cry Havoc]

Just a quick question: How many good shooters struggle at the FT line?

How many 22 year olds score 29 points per game? In NBA HISTORY, how often has that happened? James has a ton of career time left to develop his FT stroke.


I haven't chimed in yet.....Lebron is awesome...but a better overall player no.....through up stats all you want because they don't always paint the whole picture.

Yes yes, I agree! Let's talk about intangibles like teamwork and leadership and willingness to contribute to team chemistry! Let's talk about players who put the team above themselves, and then we can discuss players who demand trades and disrupt entire franchises with squabbling. :clap

[peskypesky]

Kobe and Lebron are both fantastically-gifted basketball players. They have different body-types and different skill-sets. Kobe's the better outside shooter, Lebron's the better rebounder, Lebron is a somewhat better passer, Kobe is a better defender, Lebron's a better team-mate, Kobe's a better clutch shooter, blah blah blah.

Can we get back to talking about Tim Duncan and 4 Championships and the winningest team in any sport in the past ten years?

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

How many 22 year olds score 29 points per game? In NBA HISTORY, how often has that happened? James has a ton of career time left to develop his FT stroke.





What does that have to do with his shooting now? His stroke on the outside J is getting better, but it's far from good/consistent.

[Cry Havoc]

i'm done with this if u want to keep saying that decision making of when and where to take the shot has to do with shooting ability ur an idiot.

I never said shooting ABILITY. This isn't a discussion in talent. This is a discussion in the application of skills to hardwood. If you take a huge number of idiotic shots, you are not a GOOD shooter. You have the ABILITY to be a good shooter, but Kobe fucks that up by being an uncontrollable shot-hog.

This all stemmed from the fact that I stated LeBron merits consideration as a player who is the equal of Kobe. A couple of people felt the need to sidetrack because they don't want to discuss the larger picture and instead focus on the miniscule points of semantics.

[Cry Havoc]

What does that have to do with his shooting now? His stroke on the outside J is getting better, but it's far from good/consistent.

And yet he's shooting 48% on the season. It's not like 99% of his points come from layups.

[stretch]

How many 22 year olds score 29 points per game? In NBA HISTORY, how often has that happened? James has a ton of career time left to develop his FT stroke.
Better yet, how many 20-21 year olds score 31 points per game. He wasn't even of legal drinking age, and averaged over 31 PPG. He has PLENTY of time to improve. He is absolutely amazing.

[Cry Havoc]

Let me put it another way.

If you had a guy who could knock down set shots frequently and consistently, say, at a rate of 54%, but whenever you put him into a game situation he tried to do too much and take idiotic shots while falling down, running into other players, such that his FG% for the season was 18%, would you call him a GOOD shooter? Or a player who has the POTENTIAL to shoot well and just doesn't? Would you seriously justify someone who hits 1/5 shots in a game a GOOD shooter?

Because last I checked, the NBA doesn't reward any points on potential.

If anything, NEITHER Kobe or LeBron should be considered excellent shooters. LeBron has limited range and Kobe takes stupid shots.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

And yet he's shooting 48% on the season. It's not like 99% of his points come from layups.


Gee, I wonder why his shooting % is so high with an inconsistent J:

http://i10.tinypic.com/6wzpo3a.jpg

BTW, that's 35% outside of the rim area. What a great shooter.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

there is a basic difference in ur way of thinking and mine: a good shooter, to me, doesn't have to take high percentage shots. a smart shooter does.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

mistake

[Cry Havoc]

Gee, I wonder why his shooting % is so high with an inconsistent J:

http://i10.tinypic.com/6wzpo3a.jpg

BTW, that's 35% outside of the rim area. What a great shooter.

Wow, you mean he shoots better close to the rim than from far away? Astonishing!

And yet... he's shooting 31.7% from 3 point range this year.

So what about the great, unstoppable, wonderful shooter that Kobe is! He's hit on 32.5% of his 3s this year! My god, the .7% difference is astonishing! :dizzy

[monosylab1k]

Wow, you mean he shoots better close to the rim than from far away? Astonishing!

And yet... he's shooting 31.7% from 3 point range this year.

So what about the great, unstoppable, wonderful shooter that Kobe is! He's hit on 32.5% of his 3s this year! My god, the .7% difference is astonishing! :dizzy
which means that LeBron hits 31.7% of his smart 3 point shots, and Kobe shoots even better despite taking alot of ridiculous, off balance 3's. Which means Kobe is a better shooter than LeBron. LeBron shooting "smart" still isn't as accurate a shooter as Kobe shooting "stupid".

[Medvedenko]

You guys can all drown in myopic discussions regarding shooting stats and %'s....who cares.


Yes yes, I agree! Let's talk about intangibles like teamwork and leadership and willingness to contribute to team chemistry! Let's talk about players who put the team above themselves, and then we can discuss players who demand trades and disrupt entire franchises with squabbling.

see 3 peat when Kobe deferred to his teammates.....sacrificed his game for the better of the team. If didn't watch these games then you can't comment.

[Medvedenko]

Remember Lebron is still young...he'll be asking for a trade soon enough.....

[monosylab1k]

Like I said before, I'll take LeBron any day over Kobe....but there's really no way to deny that Kobe is a better shooter. There's a reason Kobe can't always get the best shot off....part of it is definitely that he's a selfish ballhog, and part of it is that the other team is going to press him and not let him get a good shot off. If Kobe really wasn't a great shooter, they'd back off and let him shoot the way they let LeBron shoot. It's the fact that he's so deadly with his shot that teams play him so tough defensively on the perimeter.

Now it's Kobe's fault he decides to take those stupid, highly contested shots instead of passing out. But it doesn't make him a worse shooter than LeBron.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

according to cry:

parker > kobe at shooting

[Cry Havoc]

according to cry:

parker > kobe at shooting

Wow, see that's funny. I thought you said we would agree to disagree.

Strange how you just keep going.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Wow, you mean he shoots better close to the rim than from far away? Astonishing!

And yet... he's shooting 31.7% from 3 point range this year.

So what about the great, unstoppable, wonderful shooter that Kobe is! He's hit on 32.5% of his 3s this year! My god, the .7% difference is astonishing! :dizzy


From the 3pt line and in(without dunks/layups), Kobe shoots 43% to LeBron's 36%.

LeBron is a better finisher than Kobe(and the sole reason why his shooting % is better), but there's no question Kobe is the better shooter.

Astonishing would be your take in light of the facts.

[Medvedenko]

Lebron is playing awesome this year and will get better...statistically who knows where he'll be...it's tough to gauge and will depend on teammates and systems. Remember, playing the triangle no player has averaged close to 10 assists per game since Phil was coaching it. It's just not that type of offense. Also, Kobe now has a low post threat as he did when Shaq was on board. I will say this....he still takes way to many shitty shots and forces a little especially when he's hurt.

Lebron misses a shit load of games due to a bruised knuckle.....Kobe plays hurt all of the time....

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

If Lebron develops a consistent outside shot(and I expect him to in 2-3 years), he could be right up there with MJ, IMO, when his playing days are over.

[Medvedenko]

Remember, once he starts slowing down physically he'll get his jump shot....his stats will stay the same.

[TheNextGen]

Let me put it another way.

If you had a guy who could knock down set shots frequently and consistently, say, at a rate of 54%, but whenever you put him into a game situation he tried to do too much and take idiotic shots while falling down, running into other players, such that his FG% for the season was 18%, would you call him a GOOD shooter? Or a player who has the POTENTIAL to shoot well and just doesn't? Would you seriously justify someone who hits 1/5 shots in a game a GOOD shooter?

Because last I checked, the NBA doesn't reward any points on potential.

If anything, NEITHER Kobe or LeBron should be considered excellent shooters. LeBron has limited range and Kobe takes stupid shots.

From the amount of "stupid" shots Kobe trys...he sure makes a fair amount of it.

in essence...Lebron makes the same amount of "smart" shots as Kobe making in "stupid" shots...therefore, Kobe is a better shooter.

[Cry Havoc]

From the amount of "stupid" shots Kobe trys...he sure makes a fair amount of it.

in essence...Lebron makes the same amount of "smart" shots as Kobe making in "stupid" shots...therefore, Kobe is a better shooter.

48.5% vs. 44.5% overall this year. Not the same.

Would it make you guys feel better if I amended it to say that Kobe is a better shooter purely on talent, but the fact that he's fucktarded with his shot selection and teamplay means that he's not as effective as James is? I would be willing, for the sake of argument, to make that concession. The fact that James is shooting 4% higher this year should not be dismissed from the initial statement, however.

I just don't get it. If Kobe is the offensive juggernaut that those are claiming, if Kobe's got so many more moves than LeBron, why doesn't he use them instead of tossing up garbage? I stand by my statement that NEITHER of these players are great shooters, because they both have obvious deficiencies.

[Medvedenko]

I just don't get it. If Kobe is the offensive juggernaut that those are claiming, if Kobe's got so many more moves than LeBron, why doesn't he use them instead of tossing up garbage? I stand by my statement that NEITHER of these players are great shooters, because they both have obvious deficiencies.

Please quite while you're ahead......

81 points in ONE GAME shooting a very high percentage I might add......
averaged 36 per game for a season
4 50+ games in a row
averaged 40 per month for 2 separate months.....
62 in 3 q's....blahablah

[Cry Havoc]

Please quite while you're ahead......

81 points in ONE GAME shooting a very high percentage I might add......
averaged 36 per game for a season
4 50+ games in a row
averaged 40 per month for 2 separate months.....
62 in 3 q's....blahablah

Perhaps I misstated that. I DO agree that Kobe is unstoppable offensively. However, I do not feel that he is worthy of this Jordanesque air that some people attempt to describe him. He is not the best offensive player in the history of the game, nor is he close to being.


But I meant this as a comparison to LeBron. How great would Kobe be if he used his head more often when shooting?

[Medvedenko]

Some would say you need to be a little crazy to make those shots he attempts and having the balls to do so seperates him from everyone else. Yes, he does take too many contested triple pump fake looking fadeaways from time to time....but consider that practise :)

You're right his shot selection can be a little haphazzard.

[TampaDude]

Wow...looks like I really opened up a can of worms with my post... :lol

Kobe is probably the best overall right now, but LeBron is the future...if he stays healthy, he could end up being one of the greatest of all time. LeBron is SO strong and physical...he's almost unstoppable when he drives to the basket.

Remember, in only his 4th season in the NBA, he took a team of scrubs to the FINALS! Now, THAT'S awesome! :toast

[Cry Havoc]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=071220_windhorst

CLEVELAND -- In the NBA in December, this is about as good as the theater gets.

A tight game in the final moments, crowd on its feet, two of the best players in the world guarding each other and looking to be the hero. LeBron James and Kobe Bryant didn't quite have the Hollywood ending -- the game ended with a thud and not a splash -- but they did provide some drama.

During a timeout with just over three minutes left to play the same discussion was held in both huddles. James wanted to cover Bryant and told teammate Sasha Pavlovic to go guard someone else, in pretty much those exact terms. Bryant gave his directive to coach Phil Jackson, who wasn't totally sold, but went with his star's wishes.

"Why not?" Bryant said later. "I look forward to those matchups, that's what I do as a defensive player."

"If you want to win ballgames, you have to be able to defend the best player," James said. "I think we both took on the challenge."

They had all last summer. When Team USA practiced, James looked for a chance to guard Bryant at any chance and described the sessions as "very intense."

They may be summer teammates and both wear the swoosh, but they are far from close. James, after all, came down on Shaquille O'Neal's side in the Laker Wars.

James went right at Bryant, nailing a 17-footer to tie the game. Then, moments later, he got free from Bryant off a screen and turned the corner and drew a foul. His two free throws with 1:44 left gave the Cavs the lead.

So when Bryant got his hands on the ball with about seven seconds to play and his team still down those two points, he wanted to end it. He spun, rocked and hoisted a 3-pointer over James' fingertips. He may have preferred to drive past James, but a sore groin may have changed his mind. The rotation and the aim were true, but Bryant's touch was just a little off as it banged the back of the rim.

" I knew he was going for the win. I turned around and it looked like it was going to go in," James said.

When the Cavs got a favorable whistle when Daniel Gibson and Derek Fisher collided, James and his club were able to wrestle away a 94-90 victory. It was a big one for the Cavs, who had lost nine of 11 games including an embarrassing blowout at Madison Square Garden Wednesday night. It was a cooler for the Lakers, who had won seven of eight.

LeBron's now taken the last four meetings with Kobe, though they've taken turns outplaying each other individually. This one went James' way in about every category. He put up 33 points, extending his lead over Bryant in the race for the scoring title slightly, with 10 rebounds and five assists.

Bryant wasn't his usual self with the groin issue, which has been bothering him for a week. He made just 8-of-22 shots for 21 points, though he did come up with a huge offensive rebound with 10 seconds left that earned the Lakers one extra possession.

"I was pretty frustrated," Bryant said. "I can't explode like I want to I've got to rely on my jump shot a lot more."

Bryant was just 1-of-6 shooting in the fourth, when the Cavs held the Lakers to 5-of-22 overall and just 12 points. It was the sort of defensive effort, combined with James' heroics, that was the trademark of so many Cavs' victories in their remarkable run to the Finals last season. And the sort of stuff that has been missing for much of this year.

But both James and Bryant know it's just one round in their ongoing battle, one sure to be rekindled next month at Staples Center and again in private Team USA practices next summer in China.

"We just made more plays at the end of the game to win," James said. "It's a long season."

----

Looks like he's already better on defense than many are willing to give him credit for.

[milkyway21]

is LeBron mad at Coach Brown during that Cavs vs NY game?
Brown in a hot seat?


In that game, LeBron James did indeed bump coach Mike Brown. Replays are indisputable. Frustrated and jawing at the referees, he spun around back toward the bench and slightly nudged Brown, simply expressing frustration. You turn around, you're mad, you want to hit something. In that immediate moment, Brown fit the bill. No harm done.

It shouldn't be spun into anything bigger than incidental contact. It's not the pinnacle of James' displeasure with what's going on with the Cavs these days, or a defining moment that means irreparable damage has been done during this recent slide.

Brown is on the hot seat, but he was there long before the poor performance in New York. James has always been unhappy that Brown's style doesn't allow Cleveland to run more, yet that same style has produced consecutive 50-win seasons and a Finals appearance...

[TheNextGen]

Looks like he's already better on defense than many are willing to give him credit for.

If defense means "groin Injury" then you are right.