Ron Paul hearts the KKK [Archive] - SpursTalk.com Forums

Bunz

12-19-2007, 07:29 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071219/ap_po/ron_paul_white_supremacist

Paul keeps white supremacist donation
By BRIAN SKOLOFF, Associated Press Writer Wed Dec 19, 4:27 PM ET

WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. - Republican presidential hopeful Ron Paul has received a $500 campaign donation from a white supremacist, and the Texas congressman doesn't plan to return it, an aide said Wednesday.

Don Black, of West Palm Beach, recently made the donation, according to campaign filings. He runs a Web site called Stormfront with the motto, "White Pride World Wide." The site welcomes postings to the "Stormfront White Nationalist Community."

"Dr. Paul stands for freedom, peace, prosperity and inalienable rights. If someone with small ideologies happens to contribute money to Ron, thinking he can influence Ron in any way, he's wasted his money," Paul spokesman Jesse Benton said. "Ron is going to take the money and try to spread the message of freedom."

"And that's $500 less that this guy has to do whatever it is that he does," Benton added.

Black said he supports Paul's stance on ending the war in Iraq, securing U.S. borders and his opposition to amnesty for illegal immigrants.

"We know that he's not a white nationalist. He says he isn't and we believe him, but on the issues, there's only one choice," Black said Wednesday.

"We like his stand on tight borders and opposition to a police state," Black told The Palm Beach Post earlier.

On his Web site, Black says he has been involved in "the White patriot movement for 30 years."[U]

Ignignokt

12-19-2007, 07:43 PM

so the stormfront aryans are basically the victoria crew with hatred towards minorities.

BonnerDynasty

12-19-2007, 08:06 PM

He's just trying to deplete their assets.

braeden0613

12-19-2007, 11:26 PM

Terrible thread title...and a pointless article. The MSM is really searching for something.

Ignignokt

12-20-2007, 12:26 AM

Terrible thread title...and a pointless article. The MSM is really searching for something.

had this been huckabee all you liberal harlots would have took out the knives.

Duff McCartney

12-20-2007, 12:31 AM

I actually like Ron Paul and I'm fairly liberal...except for the fact that I don't like any Democrats either...politics is garbage.

But this article is a reach....shit if some black panther wanted to give my campaign money I'd gladly take it....but I wouldn't give the guy or his ideals the time of day in my political ideology.

Spawn

12-20-2007, 12:47 AM

braeden0613

12-20-2007, 01:03 AM

had this been huckabee all you liberal harlots would have took out the knives.
I'm far from a liberal. Go away Troll.

Nbadan

12-20-2007, 01:46 AM

A white supremacists named Black - Classic!

:hat

E20

12-20-2007, 02:21 AM

I've always wondered WTF an aryan was.

Ignignokt

12-20-2007, 03:09 AM

I'm far from a liberal. Go away Troll.

Ofcourse not, you're just a hypocrite. Had this been huckabee you would have been demanding his head.

Fuck off, i've been here longer than you have douche.

Mavtek

12-20-2007, 03:19 AM

WTF? Is Don Black a member of the KKK? 2nd question does anyone have any proof that Ron Paul "hearts" the KKK?

3rd question could this thread title be anymore misleading? I mean I'll give you the stretch that the KKK hearts Ron Paul, but saying Ron Paul hearts the KKK is not only misleading it's slanderous. I think I'll be reporting this topic to the mods.

Nbadan

12-20-2007, 03:46 AM

Some history on Don Black...

Don Black is 6-foot-3 and muscular, with dark brown hair with specks of gray and a reserved manner. He's known as a "laid-back guy," says Bill Rothchild, director of the Palm Beach region of the ADL. "He has a fairly low profile in Palm Beach County."

But in Huntsville, Ala., in 1970, Black, then 17, started a local chapter of the White Youth Alliance, an organization run by a relatively obscure Louisiana State University student: David Duke. In 1980, Black succeeded Duke as Klan leader. Several months later, Black began planning an armed invasion of a Caribbean island.

The following year, with a group of white supremacist buddies, he tried to invade the island of Dominica to establish a base for their movement. Black spent two years in a federal penitentiary for attacking a friendly nation; the minimum-security facility was "where the term 'Club Fed' originated," he says. "You can't leave, but it's about as good as you can get."

USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/life/2001-07-16-kid-hate-sites.htm)

Nbadan

12-20-2007, 03:55 AM

At the very least, will Paul personally state publicly, vigorously and unmistakably that he rejects the support of white supremacists, and that he will not knowingly tolerate their involvement with his campaign in any form or to any degree?

Until three days ago, neither Dr. Paul nor anyone else in the campaign had any idea who Don Black was or is. We’ve never met or communicated with him. We did not solicit his support.

It is certainly unfortunate that the campaign’s donation banner is on his site. We’re not rushing to spend a lot of time reading what’s over there, but what you’ve described is certainly repugnant, and completely anathema to everything Dr. Paul stands for.

Lone star times (http://lonestartimes.com/2007/10/30/rpb2/)

some_user86

12-20-2007, 08:14 AM

My god, that's a scary website. Especially for a brown-skinned person like me.

I don't understand. I'm a model citizen, I contribute to taxes and knowledge (scientist in training) to this country. And yet these people would still request that I go away from my birthland so that they could claim some sacred white manifest destiny (on land ironically stolen from it's original non-white owners).

I didn't believe racism was that prevalent in America today, but I guess I am just naive because San Antonio is such a diverse city. I guess I am just lucky I have yet to see racism at A&M?

I am sad. :depressed

Spawn

12-20-2007, 09:15 AM

paul's style is to ignore this pointless bull

he's not going to waste his time defending why he's not giving back a $500 donation from some hate-filled nutball

that's the spokesperson's job

So basically what you are saying is that he doesn't have to explain because Blacks are not his target audience.

Mavtek

12-20-2007, 10:08 AM

JoeChalupa

12-20-2007, 10:41 AM

had this been huckabee all you liberal harlots would have took out the knives.

Ron Paul's explanation for keeping the donation is fine by me. Big deal.
:rolleyes

violentkitten

12-20-2007, 12:53 PM

At the very least, will Paul personally state publicly, vigorously and unmistakably that he rejects the support of white supremacists, and that he will not knowingly tolerate their involvement with his campaign in any form or to any degree?

Lone star times (http://lonestartimes.com/2007/10/30/rpb2/)

"Dr. Paul stands for freedom, peace, prosperity and inalienable rights. If someone with small ideologies happens to contribute money to Ron, thinking he can influence Ron in any way, he's wasted his money," Paul spokesman Jesse Benton said. "Ron is going to take the money and try to spread the message of freedom."

"And that's $500 less that this guy has to do whatever it is that he does," Benton added.

link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071219/ap_po/ron_paul_white_supremacist)

Spurminator

12-20-2007, 01:01 PM

This is so fucking stupid.

Duff McCartney

12-20-2007, 01:05 PM

You are comparing the Black Panthers to the KKK?

:rolleyes

braeden0613

12-20-2007, 01:43 PM

Ofcourse not, you're just a hypocrite. Had this been huckabee you would have been demanding his head.

Fuck off, i've been here longer than you have douche.
my join date-10-19-2005
yours- 08-17-2007

And no i wouldnt be calling for Huck's head. Im sorry but the skeletons in Huck's closet are alot more serious than taking a white supremacist's donation and using it for the campaign.

George Gervin's Afro

12-20-2007, 02:01 PM

had this been huckabee all you liberal harlots would have took out the knives.

making baseless blanket statements again i see... :rolleyes

braeden0613

12-20-2007, 04:54 PM

Ignignokt is an alias
yeah i figured that

clambake

12-20-2007, 05:40 PM

Igknurent has a hard on for Huck just because he's republican.....
and because he tried to change laws so he could keep bribes..er.. gifts in exchange for state positions....
and used campaign funds to pay himself as his own media consultant......
and wrote a book called Kids that Kill....without mentioning the sick freak son he spawned.

almost forgot....and throw around some false expressions of faith wrapped in holy water and Igknurent can't wait to drink.

whottt

12-20-2007, 05:48 PM

clambake

12-20-2007, 05:52 PM

It's classic that the white supremacists are against the Iraq War...

So let's see who's against it...

Socialists/Communists
Fanatical Muslims
White Supremacists

:lol

And ya'll think I'm the asshole...

By all means, keep conforming...don't let me get in your way.

just asking, why do you keep calling it a war when it's clearly and oil grab?

wouldn't that be a better argument?

whottt

12-20-2007, 06:04 PM

just asking, why do you keep calling it a war when it's clearly and oil grab?

wouldn't that be a better argument?

Not really...

IMO, you aren't a particularly bright chap, not particularly insightful, or imaginative. No offense...anything you think is probably wrong.

You're a mob type...

I view you in the historical sense as being the type who was unwilling be separate from the vocal opinion...a quick glance at history proves these types to be almost always on the wrong side of it...the type that stones someone because there are a bunch of people screaming that person should be stoned...I don't see you as an individual who checks facts and researches to form his own opinion.

Something to think about.

I mean...it was so obvious the Earth was flat.

JoeChalupa

12-20-2007, 06:06 PM

It'll be interesting to see what Ron Paul says on MTP on Sunday.

clambake

12-20-2007, 06:09 PM

Not really...

IMO, you aren't a particularly bright chap, not particularly insightful, or imaginative. No offense...anything you think is probably wrong.

You're a mob type...

I view you in the historical sense as being the type who was unwilling be separate from the vocal opinion...a quick glance at history proves these types to be almost always on the wrong side of it...

Something to think about.

I mean...it was so obvious the Earth was flat.
don't want to answer, huh? just deny to the end? that's not mob, that's cult.

whottt

12-20-2007, 06:12 PM

Why not just say you love meglamaniacal despots and could give two shits about those that live under them...I mean, they must deserve it because they were born under it right? Savages must make the bed that savages lie in...right non-racist? Not our problem...even when ultimately, it is our problem.

That woman getting raped...that's not your problem either right? If she didn't dress that way it wouldn't have happened....Not your problem. Until your wife gets raped because you turned a blind eye...

This is you. But by all means....keep up the hysterical screaming...it makes you smart.

clambake

12-20-2007, 06:15 PM

whew..........

whottt

12-20-2007, 06:18 PM

Maybe you can invite some white supremacists to the forum to help you argue your point :tu

clambake

12-20-2007, 06:19 PM

chemical imbalance?

whottt

12-20-2007, 06:23 PM

People who will be voting for Ron Paul in the next election:

White Supremacists
Fantical Muslims(read ultra conservatives)
Anti-Abortionists.
Isolationists
Xenophobes
Ex liberals who think Bush got elected because there are more conservatives in the US than Liberals, and think Bush got elected in 04 because he was a conservative.

whottt

12-20-2007, 06:28 PM

chemical imbalance?

I wouldn't go that far, I'd just say you need to read more and post less.

clambake

12-20-2007, 06:33 PM

I wouldn't go that far, I'd just say you need to read more and post less.
I read the part where you said Azteca's would have inslaved them anyway.

you don't know that much about american history, do you?

I'm not trying to flip your switch, it's obvious when you've decided to skip your prescription medication.

KKK

12-20-2007, 06:54 PM

Maybe you can invite some white supremacists to the forum to help you argue your point :tu

You rang?

braeden0613

12-20-2007, 08:01 PM

You rang?
Ignignokt? I knew you liked Ron Paul. :fro

Holt's Cat

12-20-2007, 09:12 PM

If it's imperative to remove Middle Eastern despots, will we ever stop shooting up the desert?

Spawn

12-20-2007, 09:18 PM

:rolleyes

Enlighten me oh wise one.

whottt

12-20-2007, 09:23 PM

If it's imperative to remove Middle Eastern despots, will we ever stop shooting up the desert?

Sure...

Ignignokt

12-20-2007, 09:55 PM

Ignignokt? I knew you liked Ron Paul. :fro

I guess you'd have to be white to be a white supremacist.

Mavtek

12-20-2007, 10:35 PM

This thread needs to be locked or deleted and also the thread title is slanderous. It's completely false, how do you contact mods?

whottt

12-20-2007, 10:37 PM

This thread needs to be locked or deleted and also the thread title is slanderous. It's completely false, how do you contact mods?

Hmmm...

People who will be voting for Ron Paul in the next election:

White Supremacists
Fantical Muslims(read ultra conservatives)
Anti-Abortionists.
Isolationists
Xenophobes
MavFan
Ex liberals who think Bush got elected because there are more conservatives in the US than Liberals, and think Bush got elected in 04 because he was a conservative.

And with that, I rest my fucking case.

braeden0613

12-20-2007, 10:40 PM

I guess you'd have to be white to be a white supremacist.
http://ccinsider.comedycentral.com/photos/uncategorized/claytonbigsby.jpg

01Snake

12-20-2007, 10:49 PM

This thread needs to be locked or deleted and also the thread title is slanderous. It's completely false, how do you contact mods?

Funniest shit I've seen posted in here in months! :lol

Holt's Cat

12-20-2007, 11:03 PM

What if you're a Republican who believes Paul is the best candidate?

Are you a terrerist? Klansman? Dirk fan?

whottt

12-20-2007, 11:08 PM

What if you're a Republican who believes Paul is the best candidate?

Are you a terrerist? Klansman? Dirk fan?

There's a difference?

Holt's Cat

12-20-2007, 11:09 PM

You're either with us or against us.

Mavtek

12-20-2007, 11:23 PM

Oh so I'm the only one here who thinks the thread title is incorrect?

Holt's Cat

12-20-2007, 11:26 PM

Nah, the title is definitely off. The traditional candidates and their followers certainly see Paul as a threat so it's not surprising that he's getting the 'treatment' now.

Lebowski Brickowski

12-21-2007, 12:04 AM

White Supremacists
Fantical Muslims(read ultra conservatives)
Anti-Abortionists.
Isolationists
Xenophobes

One of these things is not like the others...nice job grouping pro-lifers with militant racists and suicide bombers. :wtf

Lebowski Brickowski

12-21-2007, 12:09 AM

Lebowski Brickowski

12-21-2007, 12:12 AM

Xenophobes will vote for Paul because he doesn't want war with other nations? I think you have it backwards.

whottt

12-21-2007, 12:29 AM

One of these things is not like the others...nice job grouping pro-lifers with militant racists and suicide bombers. :wtf

Spoken like someone who's never been to an abortion clinic...or heard of one of them being bombed.

It's more like I'm grouping the militant racists with the pro lifers and terrorists.

whottt

12-21-2007, 12:30 AM

Other groups who will vote for Paul:

Anti-imperial Americans
Non-Interventionists
non neo-con Republicans (aka Republicans aka Conservatives)
Home schooling parents
pro-choicers
Fiscal Conservatives
Democrats
etc...

LOL....boy are you going to feel stupid when he loses the election. Errr...doesn't even get the nomination.

I bet you're still wondering how Kerry didn't get elected.

Holt's Cat

12-21-2007, 12:38 AM

The actions of a few do not transfer to the whole. Not every self-proclaimed environmentalist is a 'terrorist' because a handful resorted to violence.

Lebowski Brickowski

12-21-2007, 12:43 AM

LOL....boy are you going to feel stupid when he loses the election. Errr...doesn't even get the nomination.

I bet you're still wondering how Kerry didn't get elected.

Errrrrr.. Jim Rome???? Brah?

I would only feel stupid if I believed anything said by a presidential candidate other than Paul. If he doesn't win the primary, then I'm not the stupid one.

I didn't give a shit, actually, about Kerry. Though I do know that anyone who trusts an electronic voting machine with no paper trail needs to have his head examined.

whottt

12-21-2007, 12:43 AM

GMTA

I haven't hard one good and sensible, or responsible, reason for pulling out of Iraq...

I'm sorry but, "they don't want us there, they don't like us" doesn't cut it.

The violent ones don't like us...the propaganda pieces don't like us...the ones that want control and to be the power dujour don't like us...you serve that opinion, you serve them.

Dwell on why we went in all you want...

Doesn't change the fact that we can do a whole lot to imrprove the conditions that plague the middle east...

Whether or not this was a just war or a good war will not be decided until the day we pull out...and pulling out now guarantess it will have been a bad war.

Guarantees it. And no one is going to respect us for like us more for doing it...

We'll be the Mavs of the World....

And the next time someone wants to sieze power, here, there anywhere, they are going to immediately go to guerilla tactics.

That is the voice that should not be served and I am completely amazed at how many people that think they have so much insight can miss the boat on that...

Talk to Vietnamese American sometime...be sure to tell them you were in favor of pulling out of Vietnam...

After they spit in your face to soothe their murdered relatives and stolen land you might begin to understand what you are saying.

Holt's Cat

12-21-2007, 12:48 AM

GMTA

I haven't hard one good and sensible, or responsible, reason for pulling out of Iraq...

Saddam's gone.

I'm sorry but, "they don't want us there, they don't like us" doesn't cut it.

How about it's too damn expensive in terms of $ and the lives of military personnel?

The violent ones don't like us...the propaganda pieces don't like us...you serve that opinion, you serve them.

The violent ones don't like us in other parts of the world. How many other countries will we invade and occupy to make them like us?

Dwell on why we went in all you want...

Doesn't change the fact that we can do a whole lot to imrprove the conditions that plague the middle east...

We can do a lot to 'improve the conditions' in a host of countries by removing their dictatorships. Why stop with Iraq?

Whether or not this was a just war or a good war will not be decided until the day we pull out...and pulling out now guarantess it will have been a bad war.

That is the voice that should not be served and I am completely amazed at how many people that think they have so much insight can miss the boat on that...

Talk to Vietnamese American sometime...be sure to tell them you were in favor of pulling out Vietnam...

After they spit in your face to justify their murdered relatives you might begin to understand what you are saying.

So instead we send billion$ more as well as more American servicemen and women to die in the desert because Saddam once tried to off GWB's daddy.

Holt's Cat

12-21-2007, 12:50 AM

We'll be the Mavs of the World....

The Mavs know how to start shit they can't win.

whottt

12-21-2007, 12:57 AM

Saddam's gone.

And pulling out with a still wrecked infrastructure and mass political upheavel all but assures a new one will come along soon.

How about it's too damn expensive in terms of $ and the lives of military personnel?

How about people that aren't willing to die don't join the military...and some thing are more important than money...

Whose about money now?

Funny how going into Iraq for money is evil but pulling out isn't...

Lame.

The violent ones don't like us in other parts of the world. How many other countries will we invade and occupy to make them like us?

It's not about making them like us....it's about giving them a quality of life to where suicide doesn't seem like a wonderful option.

And we're already there....

We can do a lot to 'improve the conditions' in a host of countries by removing their dictatorships. Why stop with Iraq?

Because if we're successful in Iraq...a successful Iraq does more to undermine authoritarian regimes than anything else we could do.

Surely you see this?

So instead we send billion$ more as well as more American servicemen and women to die in the desert because Saddam once tried to off GWB's daddy.

Like I said....you can name one billion reasons why we went in...none of them matter now. What matters is the end result of us being there...and a pullout assures a shitty one...with a lot of bloodshed...in particular the ones that are trying to make Iraq a better place.

Lebowski Brickowski

12-21-2007, 12:57 AM

So you say we "can do a whole lot!!!" to.......

Is it happening? Is the indefinite and multi front war doing it? I think it keeps getting worse.

You sound like you expect some seismic shift in the zeitgeist will occur any moment providing we stay at war. Would Vietnam have been a 'success' if we just kept fighting?

I think that there are effective ways to help the m.e. -- The war isn't one of them.

A war is just or unjust in itself, not based on the outcome.

whottt

12-21-2007, 01:02 AM

So you say we "can do a whole lot!!!" to.......

Is it happening? Is the indefinite and multi front war doing it? I think it keeps getting worse.

That's because you are watching the news and listening to the propaganda.

I think it's definitely better.

You sound like you expect some seismic shift in the zeitgeist will occur any moment providing we stay at war.

Of course I do...my god, you expect a war where no one fights back...if that were the nature of war there would be no wars.

Would Vietnam have been a 'success' if we just kept fighting?

Is the 2 million that were murdered after we pulled out your idea of doing the right thing?

Is it truly?

I think that there are effective ways to help the m.e. -- The war isn't one of them.

A war is just or unjust in itself, not based on the outcome.

And you're wrong...

Oh there's no doubt we're more just than Saddam was...and there's no doubt we had every legal ground to go into Iraq. There's also no doubt he was shitty brutal military dictator...who just so happened to be in violation of cease fire agreements with us...

Like I say...

You, the white supremacists, the anti-americans, the militans Islamacists...

You guys all say the same thing...

I could go find one that is completely illiterate, and he would say the exact same things you say...it's propaganda at it's finest...

Mavtek

12-21-2007, 01:10 AM

Whott, it is you who is in the minority, it is you who have not been educated on the issues. The War in Iraq was wrong, is wrong, and will always be wrong. The numbers of troops we have, the violence going down then up then down is irrelevant.

If you think what we are doing is just, then fine tell me where you live and I'll come to your house with my guns, wreck your home, take your assets and let you live in a corner with no electricity or basic utilities. Seriously if you are ok with that I'll get a contract drawn up for you and you can PM your address to me.

Holt's Cat

12-21-2007, 01:20 AM

How is it a given that continuing to occupy Iraq will eventually lead to a successful conclusion for the US?

Lebowski Brickowski

12-21-2007, 01:28 AM

Sticks and stones, man..... It was a good dialouge before your last post.

NEWS?! I watch THE NEWS?!

My point is this:

The cultural shift that I referred to will not likely happen as a result of THIS war.

The only wars in History where that has happened are complete, Imperial annexations (Syria, Egypt, Macedon, Rome), and also ideological wars where an enemy was completely or near completely annihilated (French and US Revolutions, Protestant Revolution in England, US Civil War, US-Indian wars, WWII).

Both types of wars irrevocably and totally changed the spirit of the age, or zeitgeist of the conquered -- for better or worse.

What kind of war is Iraq II? --

Of course, we ALL hope the Iraq war will be for the greater good. Even illiterate, white supremecists do in their own way.

It's different, most people hope. We aren't "annexing" Iraq, right? (Not politically i suppose, but certainly we are financially.) We can't impose the Rule of Law on them by annihilation. So how do we do it? Rerbuild their roads and schools and sewers -- fine -- but at the same time, more and more people are blowing up little Iraqi kids and US soldiers. When will we change in totality the "spirit" of Iraq.

Less war would equal better relations would equal better diplomacy would equal beter "standard of living." Isn't the Iraqi pres. dempcraically elected? Their civil war doesn't need us. In fact, when we leave, the war will continue, but I would argue that it would not last as long or be as bloody.

whottt

12-21-2007, 02:02 AM

Sticks and stones, man..... It was a good dialouge before your last post.

NEWS?! I watch THE NEWS?!

My point is this:

The cultural shift that I referred to will not likely happen as a result of THIS war.

It sure as hell will....in fact it's already begun. What kind of fairytale world do you live in where everything go smoothly...

It's already begun. It began the day we removed a minority ruling military dictator from power and sections of the population were given voice for the first time in decades.

You are talking about a region where speaking out meant death and torture for you and your family, where every thing was done by force, and where tolerance and openmindedness, the free exchange of ideas were completely stifled...and you expect them to just step into it and start singing kumbaya...

I never expected that...

You also seem to be completely naive about how the regional powers(read Saudi Arabia and Iran) neither of which are a Democracy, nor do they want a Democracy...would try to influence the outcome.

Of course there are going to be power struggles...there always going to be those that attempt to capitalize on their situation for their gain...that's who you serve when you advocate a pullout by the way.

You serve the cause of rendering the whole thing meaningless.

And I know you think it's already meaningless...you're wrong.

It didn't start out a muslim country...

The only wars in History where that has happened are complete, Imperial annexations (Syria, Egypt, Macedon, Rome), and also ideological wars where an enemy was completely or near completely annihilated (French and US Revolutions, Protestant Revolution in England, US Civil War, US-Indian wars, WWII).

Both types of wars irrevocably and totally changed the spirit of the age, or zeitgeist of the conquered -- for better or worse.

What kind of war is Iraq II? --

It's a liberation war...for those who forgotten what it means to be liberated...but those that want that liberty nonthless.

It'll take 2 generations minimum...that doesn't make it a bad war.

Of course, we ALL hope the Iraq war will be for the greater good. Even illiterate, white supremecists do in their own way.

When you advocate a pullout you render the entire conflict meaningless and almost certainly assure a similar situation...

Take a look at Afghanistan...that's what your pullout will accomplish.

Isn't the Iraqi pres. dempcraically elected?

Sure but he doesn't have a foothold on power.

Their civil war doesn't need us.

If a civil breaks out we'll discuss the merits of leaving...it's not a certainty yet.

In fact, when we leave, the war will continue, but I would argue that it would not last as long or be as bloody.

Dude...the bulk of the war is over, but there is no stability there and the weakened infrastructure makes it a survival of the fittest situation should we pull out.

At the very least...we don't pull out until the majority of the infrastructure has been rebuilt.

Otherwise you're looking at Afghanistan again...only worse, and with more money.

There's no justification for pulling out and you can not show me a single situation where pulling out because of guerilla tactics worked well...

The Soviets did it and the loss of esteem was so great they collapsed. We did it in Vietnam and never regained the prestige or esteem we had prior to that war...

I'm sorry..but pulling out is completely utterly and thoroughly wrong.

Mavtek

12-21-2007, 02:26 AM

whottt

12-21-2007, 02:29 AM

Notice how Whott refused to respond to my post.

Here's another one for you, it would seem that new reports say that Civil War is highly unlikely.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/18/AR2007121802262_pf.html

You posted no facts and a lame analogy that reveals a complete and utter ignorance of the differences between the USA and an entrentched military dictator of a minority party brutally ruling over a majority.

Not the same thing that all...

IF you tried that in Iraq under Saddam? You'd succeed....because they'd have no defense...if you tried it here...I'd blow your fucking head off...and be completely within my rights to do so. Do you see the difference? Do you see why it's not the same thing...

And by the way...thanks for the platform for me to illustrate exactly why this war is a good one...because you can't do what you'd attempt to do in your analogy here...and you can there.

Do you get it?

Why we went in is irrelevant to all but those looking for someone to blame...there'll be a time to do that...but now is not that time.

Bottom line...

Saddam = bad
Democracy = good

It is that simple...it's just that simple. And if you don't agree...then go live in Iran...be sure to freely give your ideas, in particular your religious ones...lots of voice there...

But you wouldn't do that...because you wouldn't want to live there...would you? What makes you think they do?

Mavtek

12-21-2007, 02:38 AM

You're right Whott, I no longer have to have this discussion with you as you have completely proven your intelligence level to everyone.

Holt's Cat

12-21-2007, 11:35 AM

How is it a given that continuing to occupy Iraq will eventually lead to a successful conclusion for the US?

BradLohaus

12-21-2007, 03:20 PM

People are worried about a racist giving Ron Paul $500. With all the control that big money has in this country over the political parties and the media - we are supposed to be concerned about $500?

I award no points to this attack on Ron Paul:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKjxFJfcrcA&feature=related

Ha! Apparantly the guy who posted that is a Paul supporter; here's what he said about the video:

A line I find worthy of consideration every time I hear someone say something mind-numbingly, anti-logically, paradoxically stupid. In other words, quite often. Watch the Republican debates and you can imagine seeing one particular candidate *cough*Ron Paul*cough* thinking this every time the others speak.

whottt

12-22-2007, 12:11 AM

i'll just pull out a random whotticism and point out that if a foreign country wants to take over, they won't be able to use guerilla tactics..that's a method only available to the defense.. (american revolution)

Eh...I don't see why it's a crime to aid countries seeking our help...it won the Cold War. There are people that are sworn to the destruction of the United States...it's not paranoia. Read any Socialist platform, they all say for Socialism to work there can be no other alternative...it's not a paranoid delusion or anything.

The world is no disney land where every just wants to be left alone to mind their own business...
People kill people for no reason, people do shitty stuff for no reason...People seek power and control...these are all very real things. IT's not like if you don't threaten anyone, no one will threaten you...the world just does not work that way.

And I agree...you can't invade with a guerilla war...but that won't be how the US is attacked, never said it would be.

However...if we are attacked by a foreign country...do you propose we merely just defend ourselves and not strike the attacking country?

That is a war will be guaranteed to lose...

That's a guy picking a fight with you and you doing nothing but trying to avoid his punches...that will not work, that takes more skill than just fighting the guy straight up. And if you eventually you will get hit.

To say there will never be any need to fight a guerilla war is a huge oversimplification...and until we prove it won't work, it'll be something we face should that eventuality arrive.

The reason the United States is now a major power in the mid-east is because we were twice drug into World Wars by powers vying for control of that region of the world.....it wasn't like we just one day said...hey let's take over the middle east...it was more a case of, you guys going to keep bringing us into your wars...then we're going to go ahead take control of this situation.

America was isolationist...it didn't work...and lot more died because we thought we could be isolationist than have died since we realized we couldn't. Fact.

Ron Paul may be a master of the constitution...but he's woefully unaware of US history beyond isolationist catchphrases. Being an isolationist didn't work...and the cost was millions of American lives. Millions...if you guys think hte bodycount of the Iraq war is monstrous...go look at what happened when we were Isolationist.

whottt

12-22-2007, 12:29 AM

I've read his platform...

But I saw him say clearly and with distinction...they don't want us there, we should leave.

That lost him my vote right there....I don't agree with that mindset...and it's going to be a huge mistake.

Who is he referring too?

It doesn't matter to me what any other stance of his is on any other issue, once those comments came out of his mouth.

Doesn't matter what his stance is on gun control...doesn't matter what his stance is on marijuana...or taxes...it matters most what his stance is on that, to me. That is the exact same stance Kerry had...

Yeah I like Paul's fuck the UN attitude....but it's not enough.

And all it's going to do is reinforce the belief that America no longer has the stomach for war...which is going to embolden those that are our enemies. And we do have enemirs..and we had them before the Iraq war, we had them when we minded our own business, we had them before Bush was elected to office.

Mark my words...it's a huge mistake to pull out of Iraq...a huge mistake. For us, for the Iraquis.

After we went into Iraq, we lost the ability to not go into Iraq. It's a decision that cannot be changed.

Bush would have been voted out in his butt had his opponent not been a guy advocating a pull out.

I could care less who voted for it or who didn't as it pertains to the current situation...it's about making it count for something...and pulling out, does not do that.

whottt

12-22-2007, 12:33 AM

The best way to avoid a fight is to always be willing to fight one...

Holt's Cat

12-22-2007, 12:53 AM

And another dies so we can put off admitting a mistake... (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5398373.html)

whottt

12-22-2007, 02:03 AM

No...it's not a mistake yet...once we pull out it will be.

We pull out, and something worse takes it place...then it was mistake.

And if we pull out...that's exactly what is going to happen.

And if you don't think there is going to be a huge uproar around the world when that moment comes...

They are not going to say, props America for doing the right thing...

They are going to call us cowards, weak, with stomach for doing what needs to be done, unfit to be the leader of the free world and this lost war will be held over our heads by all who seek that authority....and all enemies of our way of life...of which there are many.

We'll be the Buffalo Bills...we'll be Ivan Lendl after he could no longer win a match.

The voices I hear against this war around the world...I don't want those people to like us.

I don't want Hugo Chavez to like us.
I don't want the President of Iran to like us.
I don't want Jacque Chiraq or Kofi Anan to like us.

I don't want Usama Bin Laden to like us.

Those guys are scumbag lowlifes.

And once we pull out of everything...we will no longer be the authority...I just hope the authority that succeeds us is as benevolent as this country was...I doubt it will be, this is just about the most uncorrupt country that has ever been a world leader.

But anyway...if the will is gone to be the leader of the free world then we don't deserve it...and the day we pull out will be that day.

You guys will instantly blame Bush for taking us into the war in the first place...

But that won't be when we lost it...we'll lose it when we pull out.

And it will be something worse that comes into power...

Afghanistan...only with more money.

Why? Because people hated Bush more than they wanted to do the right thing...

Only Bush won't ever pay the price you want him to pay...America will pay that price.

Spawn

12-22-2007, 02:33 AM

whottt

12-22-2007, 01:04 PM

So do you want America to stay in Iraq forever?

Well...we've been in South Korea for 50 years, Western Europe for 50 years...Japan for 50 years...

Are those, or are those not, the regions of the World with the highest standards of living?
All with people trying to get there by the boatload...where most of the counteries we have issues with...people are trying to get out by the boatload...

Has that not kept us out of World Wars where hundreds upon thousands of Americans were killed because of the disputes between other countries?

There is scant little evidence that the American military being in a country a as a stabilizing force lowers it's quality of life.

Personally I don't want to be there after we are no longer needed....they won't appreciate it and they'll produce a bunch of intellectuals that will spin crap and an entirely different(but much less dangerous) form of anti-americanism will emerge from their intellectuals...

But staying until they are the jewel of the middle east and because of that there is tremendous pressure put on every mid-eastern leader for Democratic Reform and Representative Government?

You betcha...that's the #1 thing that will combat the threat of nuclear terrorism. It's also genuinely the right thing to do with our power...And it will make it a virtual certainty that we won't have to use further mass military action in a ME country in this conflict...

Nbadan

12-28-2007, 02:24 AM

NY Times retracts Paul smear...

Smearing Ron Paul
Monday, December 24th, 2007 in News by Justin Raimondo| Comment |

The Smear Bund never rests — not even on Christmas. Especially not on Christmas. And they’ve been really active lately, what with Ron Paul gaining in the polls and in the hearts and minds of a growing number of young people: we can’t have that! I’ve waded through the muck and mire, so you don’t have to — go here to read a full accounting.

One would think that the sheer counterintuitiveness of the proposition that the country’s leading libertarian politician is a Nazi sympathizer would deter the Smear Brigade from trying to pull that one off — but no. From the left-leaning cyber-lair of “Orcinus,” where the professional “extremist”-hunter David Neiwert (a kind of low-budget John Roy Carlson) holds court, to the supposedly opposite end of the spectrum over at “Stormfront,” where the “Commander” of the American National Socialist Workers Party pontificates, the hue and cry is going up: Paul is a Nazi!

This morning the New York Times took up this theme, with a vicious taunt coming out of the mouth of Virginia Heffernan, who repeats the laughable accusations of an admitted Nazi as indisputable fact. Paul “seems to have Nazi troubles, as in they’re saying he’s one of them,” she gloats — and hails a “vid-lash” against Ron Paul. Yeah, the Paul supporters have so far dominated Youtube and the internet in general, where their movement was born, but we’ll show them: Heffernan posts a video by one Mike Fluggenock, a shrill leftist propaganda short that focuses not on Paul’s positions but on two or three individuals in a crowd of some 5,000 at a rally in Philadelphia.

What’s interesting about Senor Fluggenock, however, isn’t his skills as a film-maker, or even as a propagandist, but the fact that he was one of six American “artists” to make contributions to Iranian President Ahmadinejad’s Holocaust cartoon contest. Here it is.

Gee, I don’t wonder that Fluggenock’s entry didn’t place. That is kind of heavy-handed, even for the Iranians. After all, is the evil of the Holocaust really equivalent to the admittedly brutal Israeli occupation? I haven’t noticed the Israelis killing 6 million Palestinians in extermination chambers, but I’m sure this is just an oversight on my part. What I couldn’t help noticing, however, is that Fluggenock travels in some of the same circles as Bill White, the neo-Nazi “Commander” and source of the charge that Paul is a secret “white nationalist. DC Indymedia, where Fluggenock is part of of the “editorial collective, seems to have it’s own Nazi problem. DC Indymedia has also been promoting White’s story. Hmmmmm …..

Link (http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2007/12/24/smearing-ron-paul)