Spurs Waive Darius Washington

[timvp]

:(

Sucks because he looked like a pretty good prospect, however I did see this coming. Pop just had zero trust in him and his numbers in D-League were horrible as of late. I was hoping my eyes and intuition were lying ... but they weren't.

:pctoss

[AFBlue]

This sucks!

After his fast start, I had hope that he could be a legitimate piece to this team in the future....

I guess the search for a long-term backup PG is still ongoing (Vaughn is simply a stop gap).

Does anyone know whether he'll still play for the Toros?

[timvp]

Does anyone know whether he'll still play for the Toros?That's a good question. I imagine he will but you never know. He might go to Europe again or another team might like him enough to pick him up.

[THE SIXTH MAN]

:pctoss

[ChumpDumper]

Hmm. Maybe the luxury tax threshold is a hard cap after all.

I guess we'll see in the coming week or so.

[timvp]

More to the story ... apparently Keith Langford called up from the Toros. I guess he will serve as a combo guard able to backup both the 1 and the 2 with Ginobili and Barry out.

[AFBlue]

Another question to ponder....

If Barry's injury hadn't been serious, would the Spurs simply have waived Williams to stay under the lux tax and kept Washington?

If so....then wouldn't it be within reason to assume that once Barry is healthy again, the Spurs will waive Williams and re-sign Washington? Or will the Spurs go with 2 PGs on the roster for the rest of the season?

[ChumpDumper]

Does anyone know whether he'll still play for the Toros?He can be retained by the Toros. Let's see if he clears waivers first.

[timvp]

Another question to ponder....

If Barry's injury hadn't been serious, would the Spurs simply have waived Williams to stay under the lux tax and kept Washington?

If so....then wouldn't it be within reason to assume that once Barry is healthy again, the Spurs will waive Williams and re-sign Washington? Or will the Spurs go with 2 PGs on the roster for the rest of the season?I'm guessing the Spurs will have to pick between Langford, Williams and Washington for one spot. My guess is that Langford, even though he hasn't played in an NBA game, is in the lead due to his play with the Toros.

[AFBlue]

More to the story ... apparently Keith Langford called up from the Toros. I guess he will serve as a combo guard able to backup both the 1 and the 2 with Ginobili and Barry out.

Is Langford capable of running the point in emergency?

I would've thought Cheyne Gadsen, but I guess not....

[thekingrobert]

sad day in spurs history...i liked him way better than bricklayer oops i mean vaughn

[timvp]

Is Langford capable of running the point in emergency?

I would've thought Cheyne Gadsen, but I guess not....Yeah Langford can run the point in a pinch. I'm not a huge Langford fan because he strikes me as a tweener but we'll see what he does on the NBA level when given a chance. I thought Washington thoroughly beat out Langford in preseason ... but I guess the Spurs used the Toros as an extended preseason and liked what they saw out of Langford more.

[ChumpDumper]

More to the story ... apparently Keith Langford called up from the Toros. I guess he will serve as a combo guard able to backup both the 1 and the 2 with Ginobili and Barry out.Holy crap. That's interesting to say the least. Keith looked a little rusty but he got a ton of burn.

This explains why RC was in the house pacing around and texting much of the night.

[AFBlue]

More to the story ... apparently Keith Langford called up from the Toros. I guess he will serve as a combo guard able to backup both the 1 and the 2 with Ginobili and Barry out.

10-day contract?

[Kori Ellis]

I am guessing they'll just cut Williams soon, since Langford was who they were targeting before they signed Williams anyway.

Washington might eventually be good. But I think he was too wild right now.

[Kori Ellis]

10-day contract?

No. Unguaranteed contract, just like Williams is on. It's not time for 10 day contracts yet.

[timvp]

Holy crap. That's interesting to say the least. Keith looked a little rusty but he got a ton of burn.

This explains why RC was in the house pacing around and texting much of the night.I assume you were there. Was Washington really that bad? :lol

[BeerIsGood!]

Wow, another casualty. This one is curious, I'm wondering if the Spurs doubt Washington's mental ability to run the team the way Pop wants a PG not named Parker to run the team?

[ChumpDumper]

I assume you were there. Was Washington really that bad? :lolNot really. A couple of his TOs happened when he ran out of bounds after getting a steal. He was still a bit reckless out there. Langford had a much more measured game, but I figured it was mainly because he was coming back from an injury.

[AFBlue]

I am guessing they'll just cut Williams soon, since Langford was who they were targeting before they signed Williams anyway.

Washington might eventually be good. But I think he was too wild right now.

:lol

Wow...musical chairs with the 14th and 15th roster spots!

I assume that each of these guys will be in consideration for roster spots in the future, but I guess right now they're just scrambling for enough healthy bodies to put on the floor... :lol

What do you mean when you say you think they'll cut Williams soon? Like, as soon as Ginobili or Barry get back....or sooner? Insider info?

[timvp]

Draft Express just got the story. Click here (http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Call-Up-7:-Keith-Langford-Joins-the-Spurs/) for the article. (they've asked that we only provide links and not copy and paste :duck)

Basically, most of what we thought was confirmed in the article. The Spurs wanted Langford ahead of Williams but Langford was hurt so they went with Williams. Apparently Langford shut down Ager during the game tonight. It talks about Washington perhaps going overseas and also talks about Langford turning down big money from Europe.

If I had to guess, I'd say Williams gets cut soon and the Spurs keep Langford as a combo guard. However, depending on how Washington reacts to the move, I could see him perhaps still being in the mix if Langford proves not capable of playing point guard on the NBA level.

Right now I'd say the Spurs think Langford > Washington > Williams. The Spurs have room for one of these guys. They'll probably keep their eyes open and may sign someone from another D-League team if anyone pique's their interest.

[AFBlue]

No. Unguaranteed contract, just like Williams is on. It's not time for 10 day contracts yet.

Thanks...

Yeah I seemed to remember it was too soon for the 10-day contracts, but I wasn't sure.

[Guajalote]

It was the beard. Once he shaved, his game went downhill.

[Kori Ellis]

What do you mean when you say you think they'll cut Williams soon? Like, as soon as Ginobili or Barry get back....or sooner? Insider info?

I'm just guessing. Since they wanted Langford, I'd imagine that they'll only keep Williams until Manu and/or Barry gets healthy. I doubt they will pay ~$3M in luxury tax to keep both. So unless Williams does something to really impress them, I'd guess that Langford has an upper hand on the spot.

[BeerIsGood!]

I see...

very small rotation at the wing until Manu and Barry get back. Udoka, Finley... better lace the shoes tight and eat the Wheaties.

[timvp]

What doesn't really make sense to me is if the Spurs thought Langford > Williams, why didn't they just cut Williams when Langford was healthy? :dizzy

I could tell Washington's stock had been plummeting for a while but to go from opening day backup point guard to cut in less than two months is pretty dramatic. Especially considering that he not too long ago put up a triple-double in the D-League and was leading the D-League in scoring.

[ChumpDumper]

It's true about Ager. I was distracted by a few things during the game (of all nights - shame on me), but I noticed in the second half that Ager had really done nothing while Sessions was keeping them in the game.

We had basically spotted them ten points in the first quarter by playing Pittsnogle on Fazekas.

[AFBlue]

I'm just guessing. Since they wanted Langford, I'd imagine that they'll only keep Williams until Manu and/or Barry gets healthy. I doubt they will pay ~$3M in luxury tax to keep both. So unless Williams does something to really impress them, I'd guess that Langford has an upper hand on the spot.

Okay.....between you, timvp, and the DX article I think the picture is pretty clear.

Langford and Williams will be on the team until either Ginobili or Barry (or both) get back at which point the Spurs will keep either Langford or Williams.

Washington may or may not clear waivers. If he does, he might stick with the Toros or he might look to sign a bigger deal overseas.

Either way, this situation was brought on by the myriad of injuries suffered by the Spurs and it may or may not affect the future of any one of these guys with this team.

Hope I've got that right....

If so, I'm going to bed.

[timvp]

If all the salary numbers are right, the Spurs might have only one more game to make a decision between Langford or Williams. The Spurs are so close to the luxury tax threshold that whether they can keep both for one, two or three games comes down to a few hundred dollars.

[Kori Ellis]

Okay.....between you, timvp, and the DX article I think the picture is pretty clear.

Langford and Williams will be on the team until either Ginobili or Barry (or both) get back at which point the Spurs will keep either Langford or Williams.

Washington may or may not clear waivers. If he does, he might stick with the Toros or he might look to sign a bigger deal overseas.

Either way, this situation was brought on by the myriad of injuries suffered by the Spurs and it may or may not affect the future of any one of these guys with this team.

Hope I've got that right....

If so, I'm going to bed.

:lol Yeah, you understand it as we understand it.

Who knows if that's the truth though. :smokin

[Leetonidas]

So did the Spurs sign Langford yet? I'm kinda out of it right now.

[Kori Ellis]

So did the Spurs sign Langford yet? I'm kinda out of it right now.

We understand that they did. But it hasn't officially come out from the Spurs yet. He may have signed late this evening and it not been processed by the league office yet.

[AFBlue]

What doesn't really make sense to me is if the Spurs thought Langford > Williams, why didn't they just cut Williams when Langford was healthy? :dizzy

I could tell Washington's stock had been plummeting for a while but to go from opening day backup point guard to cut in less than two months is pretty dramatic. Especially considering that he not too long ago put up a triple-double in the D-League and was leading the D-League in scoring.

Not sure it matters. I think that if they had picked up Langford before the Barry injury, they would've waived Washington and signed Williams anyways after the Barry injury.

Either way I think the situation is the same.

[timvp]

Okay.....between you, timvp, and the DX article I think the picture is pretty clear.

Langford and Williams will be on the team until either Ginobili or Barry (or both) get back at which point the Spurs will keep either Langford or Williams.

Washington may or may not clear waivers. If he does, he might stick with the Toros or he might look to sign a bigger deal overseas.

Either way, this situation was brought on by the myriad of injuries suffered by the Spurs and it may or may not affect the future of any one of these guys with this team.

Hope I've got that right....

If so, I'm going to bed.You might have to stay awake a bit longer :)

I don't think the Spurs can wait all the way until Barry is healthy. This decision (Langford vs. Williams vs. Washington) needs to be made within the week to stay under the luxury tax threshold.

[AFBlue]

If all the salary numbers are right, the Spurs might have only one more game to make a decision between Langford or Williams. The Spurs are so close to the luxury tax threshold that whether they can keep both for one, two or three games comes down to a few hundred dollars.

Damn....so the Spurs are going to have to be short-handed after the New Year until either Ginobili or Barry get back?

Not that Williams would've gotten much burn (assume he's the guy who gets cut), but at least he was there for depth purposes.

[ChumpDumper]

:lol @ DX for demoting Buford to "a scout."

[BeerIsGood!]

Were there any other teams who were seriously looking to sign Langford in the immediate future?

[AFBlue]

You might have to stay awake a bit longer :)

I don't think the Spurs can wait all the way until Barry is healthy. This decision (Langford vs. Williams vs. Washington) needs to be made within the week to stay under the luxury tax threshold.

I think you can count Washington out of it....at least in the short term.

Pop clearly didn't have enough confidence in him during the last stretch of games, often going with Barry over him to run the point. The fact that Langford was called up as the combo guard and Washington was waived even though he filled a similar role says something about Pop's comfort level with him.

Washington might be in training camp with the Spurs next year and could earn a spot on the club, but I'd say he's the longest shot to get back on this roster for the rest of the year.

[ChumpDumper]

Were there any other teams who were seriously looking to sign Langford in the immediate future?It was said on these boards he did well in a workout for the Nuggets.

[AFBlue]

:sleep

wwaii...wait what?

what's going on now?

Williams cut, Splitter signed....j/k

[BeerIsGood!]

It was said on these boards he did well in a workout for the Nuggets.

Maybe the specter of another team getting him forced RC's hand at this point in time. If they only have one game to decide who to keep, it's going to be interesting to see who gets minutes and when they get them tomorrow.

[AFBlue]

Maybe the specter of another team getting him forced RC's hand at this point in time. If they only have one game to decide who to keep, it's going to be interesting to see who gets minutes and when they get them tomorrow.

Should be a good indicator of who they'll decide to keep.

Both can bring the ball up the court, but Langford seems to be the more NBA-ready prospect and more lethal scorer.

I'd give the edge to Langford, but you never know.

[whottt]

WTH?

There ends that Cinderella Story.


That's lame...and I liked Washington. Just seems like they gave up on him too quickly or something...like they expected too much. He couldn't have really played much better in his first stint with the Toros.

[AFBlue]

WTH?

There ends that Cinderella Story.

Maybe, maybe not...

Spurs could target a PG in the draft or FA, but they could just as easily invite Washington to training camp (along with Watson and some others) to compete for the third-string spot next year.

Bottom Line: It may be past midnight, or the clock could be stuck at 11:59....we'll probably have to wait until next year to see if Washington is Cinderella.

[ChumpDumper]

I think we're getting a real taste of the way the Spurs ultimately want to use the Toros. All these moves seem drastic since they involve waiving players and giving up rights to them -- but just imagine if the it was three players shuttling between an MLB club and its AAA affiliate. I think the payroll issue is the overriding force making this all happen, but the Spurs are giving the NBA a lesson in what could be done with a single-affiliate D-League team.

[timvp]

Looking at the numbers, the Spurs might actually have five games to make the decision.

According to ESPN.com, the Spurs were $27,591 under the luxury tax threshold going into the game against the Chicago Bulls. Williams, Langford and Washington all make $427,163 per season. That comes out to $5,209 per game. Five games is $26,046. Leaving the Spurs $1,544.48 below the luxury tax threshold.

However, although the players $427,163 per year, the teams are charged a luxury tax hit of $770,610. Basically this rule is in place so that teams don't go with younger players making the minimum over older players making the minimum ... thus giving incentive to teams to waive veteran players. I'm not exactly sure how the rule works but it's possible that the $770,610 is used even if it's a per game basis. If that's the case, each player would cost $9,397 per game ... meaning the Spurs would be only able to squeeze out two games before going over the luxury tax threshold.

And this isn't even considering whether you have to pay a player while they are on waiver . . . :dizzy

Basically, the Spurs will have to make a decision ASAP. At most they have five games to make a decision. At the least, they have one game to make a decision.

[BeerIsGood!]

I think we're getting a real taste of the way the Spurs ultimately want to use the Toros. All these moves seem drastic since they involve waiving players and giving up rights to them -- but just imagine if the it was three players shuttling between an MLB club and its AAA affiliate. I think the payroll issue is the overriding force making this all happen, but the Spurs are giving the NBA a lesson in what could be done with a single-affiliate D-League team.

With the way the D-League is currently configured I wonder if we'll see the Spurs raiding other D-League teams in a similar manner trying to find diamonds in the rough, at least until the D-League progresses to the point where each team has an affiliate and some sort of compesation must be paid to take their prospect.

[AFBlue]

I think we're getting a real taste of the way the Spurs ultimately want to use the Toros. All these moves seem drastic since they involve waiving players and giving up rights to them -- but just imagine if the it was three players shuttling between an MLB club and its AAA affiliate. I think the payroll issue is the overriding force making this all happen, but the Spurs are giving the NBA a lesson in what could be done with a single-affiliate D-League team.

Great take....

This is a wonderful display of how to use the D-league affiliate. A couple guys go down and you backfill with guys who know the system but are on non-guaranteed contracts and are more for depth purposes.

Unbelievably mind-bottling, but very cool.

[timvp]

WTH?

There ends that Cinderella Story.


That's lame...and I liked Washington. Just seems like they gave up on him too quickly or something...like they expected too much. He couldn't have really played much better in his first stint with the Toros.Yeah, I don't really like this move. Langford to me is the type of player who can be great in the D-League or in Europe but will struggle in the NBA. He's not really a point guard and is too small to play shooting guard. He was also on the summer league team and didn't show much of anything. In fact, even when the Spurs got desperate for a point guard, they brought in Pooh Jeter from off the street instead of giving the job to Langford full-time.

I understand Langford over Williams, especially when there's a real chance that you'd have to actually play one of those players ... but Langford over Washington I can't agree with. Williams isn't good enough right now to play in a real NBA game. Langford can buy you minutes a la Dion Glover.

But I've never seen Langford as a legit NBA prospect. He's more fool's gold than anything because he has the skill set to tear up lower level competition. Washington I thought was a legit NBA prospect. 21-years-old and he was putting up better stats than almost anyone in the D-League before the Spurs called him up.

I'm going to have to give this flurry of moves a thumbs down.

[ChumpDumper]

With the way the D-League is currently configured I wonder if we'll see the Spurs raiding other D-League teams in a similar manner trying to find diamonds in the rough, at least until the D-League progresses to the point where each team has an affiliate and some sort of compesation must be paid to take their prospect.There's a fair chance we would have raided the Mad Ants had Memphis not done it first -- unless Langford beat Jeremy Richardson out too.

The Spurs do have a lot of personnel watching the D-League. Seems like a pretty big deal to them.

[AFBlue]

Yeah, I don't really like this move. Langford to me is the type of player who can be great in the D-League or in Europe but will struggle in the NBA. He's not really a point guard and is too small to play shooting guard. He was also on the summer league team and didn't show much of anything. In fact, even when the Spurs got desperate for a point guard, they brought in Pooh Jeter from off the street instead of giving the job to Langford full-time.

I understand Langford over Williams, especially when there's a real chance that you'd have to actually play one of those players ... but Langford over Washington I can't agree with. Williams isn't good enough right now to play in a real NBA game. Langford can buy you minutes a la Dion Glover.

But I've never seen Langford as a legit NBA prospect. He's more fool's gold than anything because he has the skill set to tear up lower level competition. Washington I thought was a legit NBA prospect. 21-years-old and he was putting up better stats than almost anyone in the D-League before the Spurs called him up.

I'm going to have to give this flurry of moves a thumbs down.

I'm going to chalk this flurry of moves up to necessity due to injury. Two swingmen went down and thus had to be replaced by two swingmen.

It was obvious that though Washington is the most talented of the trio and has the most long-term potential of them, he was not going to see court time for the Spurs....at least this season.

To me it was a necessary move that probably won't have an effect on the long-term outlook of this team. As I said before, I wouldn't be suprised to see Darius in training camp with the Spurs and on this team next year...it just wasn't the right time this go-round.

[timvp]

ChumpDumper could be on to something. It's possible the Spurs could just continue to juggle these three players throughout the season. Maybe they'll do something like waive Williams while keeping Langford until the day that contracts become guaranteed and then waive him. And then one at a time sign them to ten-day contracts.

That might actually be the case if the Spurs tell each player that if they go along with the ride that they'll each have a shot to make the team next year. We'll see but it's obvious the Spurs are going to try to take full advantage of the Toros ... even if it means stretching the current rules.

For example, if Washington is re-signed at some point ... I'm assuming his limited number of call-ups per season number gets reset. If the Spurs are planning on keeping Washington around, the risk is that someone may claim him off waivers.

A team like Golden State might need a point guard with Troy Hudson's season likely over. And the Warriors saw first hand in the preseason what Washington is capable of.

[ChumpDumper]

I think their definite preference would be to keep all three players on the Toros all season long and bring them up in injury situations just like this one, perhaps settling on one player to sign for the rest of the season as the playoffs near. That probably can't be the case with a group this talented though. With the start of 10-day contracts and the MLK showcase, any delay means those guys likely end up on another NBA team or another continent. The time to make a decision is pretty much now.

[GINNNNNNNNNNNNOBILI]

So if Darius clears waivers and decides to play for the Toros, could any NBA team call him up?

[ChumpDumper]

So if Darius clears waivers and decides to play for the Toros, could any NBA team call him up?Yes.

[timvp]

Free-agents I like better than Langford:

Tarence Kinsey
Brandon Wallace
Ronald Dupree
Ruben Patterson :drunk

[Bruno]

Wow, I'm really surprised. I guess the reason why Spurs cut Washington is that they saw him as a 6'1" SG and when you look at numbers, they are maybe right.

2004-2005 : Memphis freshman year (38 games), 3.8apg, 3.5topg, 1.07ast/to
2005-2006 : Memphis sophomore year (35 games), 3.1apg, 3.2topg, 0.99ast/to
2006-2007 : PAOK, Greece (14 games), 1.6apg, 1.9topg, 0.85ast/to
2006-2007 : Nymburg, Czech republic (28 games), 3apg, 2.4topg, 1.27ast/to
2007-2008 : Spurs (18 games), 0.84apg, 0.78 opg, 1.07ast/to
2007-2008 : Toros (6 games), 5.2apg, 5.67toppg, 0.91ast/to

In 4 years and different league (NCAA, Europe at various levels, D-League and NBA), Washington has never been able to get a decent ast/to ratio. I guess Spurs think that it will unlikely that he become one day a player able to play PG. A 6'1" SG is useless in the NBA.

I've heard one week ago that AEK Athens was interested in Washington. I don't know how legit is the info because Greek medias often start crazy rumors.

I had no clue to what Spurs will do in the future with their money available below the tax and the free rosters spot. I'm often wrong when it comes to predict what Spurs will do. I guess that both Langford and Williams will be cut before their contract become guaranteed and that Spurs will try some players with 10 days contract.

[timvp]

If it comes down to Langford vs. Williams, I actually prefer Williams. I just see no upside with Langford. Langford is just a player who can dominate bad competition. He's a lot like Charles Lee from last training camp ... but Lee might even be a bit better because he has more point guard skills.

With Williams at least he's young and has NBA size. Yeah he pretty much sucks but there's hope he becomes an NBA player. With Langford, his upside is something like a poor man's Charlie Bell.

[Mr. Body]

This shows the Spurs are meaning to win for today. We talk a lot about throwing games during the regular season, or at least not chasing them vigorously, in order to save wear and tear on the starters. If Langford is no long-term solution, it's clear the Spurs are winning for today. Unless Washington is not a good prospect in any terms.

[naico]

If it comes down to Langford vs. Williams, I actually prefer Williams. I just see no upside with Langford. Langford is just a player who can dominate bad competition. He's a lot like Charles Lee from last training camp ... but Lee might even be a bit better because he has more point guard skills.

With Williams at least he's young and has NBA size. Yeah he pretty much sucks but there's hope he becomes an NBA player. With Langford, his upside is something like a poor man's Charlie Bell.

Couldn't agree more

[Bruno]

The rule for calculating luxury tax hit is a daily rule.

If you trust ESPN number, after guaranteed contract and training camp money, Spurs were $798,201 below the luxury tax.

If Washington is picked from waivers, he will cost $0 against the luxury tax.
If Washington isn't picked from waivers and is waived today (the 28th), he will clear waivers 48 hours later (the 30th).
He would have stayed 62 days (2 in October, 30 in November and 30 in December) under contract with Spurs.
The season is 170 days long.
Washington will cost 62/170 of $770,610 against the tax that is to say $281,046.

[picnroll]

Washington can't create. Maybe he can be a PG in the NBA 3 years from now if he learns to be a PG.

[SequSpur]

WGAF. We have Jacque Vaughn

[ploto]

to go from opening day backup point guard to cut in less than two months is pretty dramatic.
Really?

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

I'm not really liking it now, but I have faith in what the Spurs FO is doing.

[tomcat]

According to a source of the Toros, Langford beat out Jeremy Richardson, Marcus Williams, Kaniel Dickens and Dermarr Johnson in the Spurs workout in drills and 1 on 1. Spurs were high on Richardson, ie inviting him in a day early and to the game but Langford abused him.

Langford also blasted the competition in the Denver workout that included Marcus Williams and Nugget players Bobby Jones and Von Wafer. Jelani McCoy was waived the next day but Kenyon Martin went down that nite. Enter need for a big.

I say we are selling Langford short as the Spurs are high on him. RC was at the game last night to see firsthand before the decision was made. Turned out Langford had some sort of staph infection and could not practice or anything. Out 12 days but still good enough to make it I guess.

[tomcat]

Almost forgot, when Kenyon Martin went down for the Nuggets, they resigned Jelani McCoy.

Nuggets just waived McCoy and requested info on Langford's injury from the Toros Thursday morning. Could have forced Spurs to move quicker.

D Wash will be fine. I dont see him in the dleague long. He will be signed soon.

[SenorSpur]

I still wonder what the Spurs will now do for a 3rd string, developmental PG. I thought that was the sole purpose of getting rid of Beno - because Darius proved to be the younger, cheaper option with more drive and upside. As of right now, there are no options in the pipeline.

[MoSpur]

I liked Darius Washington. I know he needed to improve, but what do you expect from a rookie. Oh well, the Spurs FO must know what they're doing.

[urunobili]

what i hate the most is that i think that that missed dunk on the lakers cost him the job :depressed

[loveforthegame]

Not the best start to my morning after reading this. I'm bummed about Washington and figure he'll be with another team instead of the Toro's.

Will we even get to see Langford before the Spurs decide on him? I mean Williams only got 2 minutes in the last game which was a blowout.

[angel_luv]

They waived DW?????


Please tell me you're joking.


Terrible move. Boo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :td :td :(

[Capt Bringdown]

I still wonder what the Spurs will now do for a 3rd string, developmental PG. I thought that was the sole purpose of getting rid of Beno - because Darius proved to be the younger, cheaper option with more drive and upside. As of right now, there are no options in the pipeline.

Me too. The company line is that players need at least a full year to understand & fit into the Spurs system. The Toros are supposed to help in this department, correct? But I don't see how when players are being yanked, dropped, resigned and shuffled around.

I always thought Vaughn was a stop-gap measure. But it appears we're betting the farm on him and we're at least a year away from having someone compete for that position.

[ChumpDumper]

I always thought Vaughn was a stop-gap measure. But it appears we're betting the farm on him and we're at least a year away from having someone compete for that position.I'll white it out so LJ doesn't have to read the following:

CJ Watson is still out there.

[AFBlue]

I still wonder what the Spurs will now do for a 3rd string, developmental PG. I thought that was the sole purpose of getting rid of Beno - because Darius proved to be the younger, cheaper option with more drive and upside. As of right now, there are no options in the pipeline.

It became obvious in the last stretch of games that Pop had lost all confidence in Washington to help this team in the short term when he went with Barry as the 3rd string PG.

So, while this is frustrating because Washington showed so much promise at the beginning of the season, he effectively played himself out of any role with the Spurs in the short term.

Still, I don't think this is the last time we'll see Washington....

As you mentioned, the Spurs don't have a younger option for backup PG, so there is still a hole left to be filled. The Spurs could bring Washington back, along with a few others, to compete for the third-string PG spot.

Bottom Line: No young PG in the system isn't alarming because they wouldn't be of use this year anyways. Washington, or other young PG, could still probably be in the plans for next year but the Spurs needed short-term answers at the swing position.

[Darkwaters]

I suppose the recent waiving of Washington will create another Spanoulis-laced KBP thread resolving that Vassillis is the Spurs intended target in the upcoming offseason.

[Bruno]

I suppose the recent waiving of Washington will create another Spanoulis-laced KBP thread resolving that Vassillis is the Spurs intended target in the upcoming offseason.

I'm waiting for a draft Dragic thread. :)

[tav1]

This all seems like a lot of fuss over the 15th roster spot.

Is Langford really a point? It seems early to give up on Washington. And Williams? wtf!

I'm stymied. We are missing some crucial information, I think. Maybe Ginobli's hand is worse then they are letting on, or maybe Washington did something unprofessional in the locker room to underscore his poor play...who knows. But something is amiss here.

[Bruno]

Often the simplest explanation is the right one.
I think that Spurs have waived Washington because they don't consider him as a good enough prospect.

In both of his two stints with Spurs, he was in the doghouse. Pop said that he needed to learn how to lead a team. They send him in D-League and the result was that he lead this league in turnovers and had more turnovers than assists. :rolleyes
He put great stats in D-League and had a couple of great preseason game but it wasn't enough to overcome his drawbacks. I guess that the fact that CJ Watson put better stats than him in D-League didn't help his case.

Spurs tried to develop a young PG but it didn't work. Maybe they have given up too soon on him. Future will tell.

[ChumpDumper]

This all seems like a lot of fuss over the 15th roster spot.

Is Langford really a point? It seems early to give up on Washington. And Williams? wtf!

I'm stymied. We are missing some crucial information, I think. Maybe Ginobli's hand is worse then they are letting on, or maybe Washington did something unprofessional in the locker room to underscore his poor play...who knows. But something is amiss here.Judging from his workout opponents, it seems the Spurs were looking more for a Manu backup than a Parker backup, but the roster situation may mean he sees time at both spots.

[Holt's Cat]

The Spurs are putting their investment in the Toros to good use.

[AFBlue]

This all seems like a lot of fuss over the 15th roster spot.

Is Langford really a point? It seems early to give up on Washington. And Williams? wtf!

I'm stymied. We are missing some crucial information, I think. Maybe Ginobli's hand is worse then they are letting on, or maybe Washington did something unprofessional in the locker room to underscore his poor play...who knows. But something is amiss here.

There's a whole bunch of overreaction regarding Washington at this point.

The Spurs didn't "give up" on Washington!

The Spurs had two swingmen go down and needed to replace them with two swingmen. To do so, they had to get rid of Washington.

I'm not saying that they're still as high on Washington as they once were, because he clearly played himself out of contention for backup and even third-string PG with his play with the Spurs this season.

What I am saying is that the Spurs cut Washington out of necessity and it wouldn't be unrealistic to see him back with the Spurs in future training camp(s) vying for the third-string PG spot.

In fact, I could see a scenario where the Spurs cut Langford (assuming he gets the permanent 14th spot) later on in the season and re-sign Washington if there is an injury to Parker or Vaughn. I think it far more likely that they'd go after Washington than any other PG.

Bottom Line: Washington is gone.......for now. It will now be up to him whether he wants to stick with the Toros and fight to get back on this team. It may be later this season, next season, or never....but I don't think the Spurs have given up on him for good.

[monkeypunk]

Actually, Kill Bill has kept true to his word about no V-Span posts.

[Bruno]

The Spurs didn't "give up" on Washington!


Do you realize that Washington is now on the waivers and that 29 nba team can pick him?
They have given up on him.

[Kori Ellis]

Do you realize that Washington is now on the waivers and that 29 nba team can pick him?
They have given up on him.

And there were other NBA teams interested in him when the Spurs signed him, I believe. So it's likely he might not clear waivers and someone with grab him.

[wildbill2u]

The last spot on the roster is often like the back up quarterback controversy on an NFL team.

Spurs fans get excited over some untested (but hard-working) rookie at the 15th spot or some Euro (Javtokas) who probably won't pan out.

Remember we carried Sean Marks for years and he always got lots of cheers when he went in for a minute in garbage time.

Settle down. Maybe we'll grow to love Langford.

[Bruno]

And there were other NBA teams interested in him when the Spurs signed him, I believe. So it's likely he might not clear waivers and someone with grab him.

If I remember well, Seattle was one of the team interested.
If a team pick Washington from waivers, it would be a good news for Spurs because it will give them more luxury tax flexibility.

[BeerIsGood!]

How tall in Langford? Just wondering since he'll more than likely be added to the end of the wing rotation instead of the point. With two injured wing players out it'll be interesting to see if he gets a shot from Pop to enter the game while the game is still tight.

One thing I like is that the Spurs are using this spot to evaluate and develop youth instead of just sticking an old vet out there to enjoy the ride.

[Bruno]

How tall in Langford?

6'3.5" in shoes with a huge 6'9" wingspan.

[BeerIsGood!]

6'3.5" in shoes with a huge 6'9" wingspan.

Thanks, Bruno. Hopefully Udoka and Finley really keep going hot until at least Manu returns and Langford remains just insurance, but it might be interesting to see what he can do if needed.

[Budkin]

Man that blows. I mean he had a couple bad games but he had mega energy and hustle.

[ChumpDumper]

Wow, tonight I might witness the worst loss in D-League history.

[AFBlue]

Do you realize that Washington is now on the waivers and that 29 nba team can pick him?
They have given up on him.

Yes, I do realize that. But I would say that given the circumstances (two injured guards) it was a necessity.

If he gets picked up, he still only has a contract through the end of this year if I remember correctly. Let me know if I'm wrong about that one.

But if I'm correct, the Spurs will have just as much chance to pick him up next year as any of the other 29 teams.

[Bruno]

Yes, I do realize that. But I would say that given the circumstances (two injured guards) it was a necessity.

It wasn't a necessity. Spurs had still 3 SG/SF and could have played some minutes with two PGs. And Barry isn't out for the season, he will be back in two weeks. Manu could even be back sooner.
I don't see Spurs waiving a prospect they like because of that. So it means that Spurs weren't that high on Washington.



If he gets picked up, he still only has a contract through the end of this year if I remember correctly. Let me know if I'm wrong about that one.

But if I'm correct, the Spurs will have just as much chance to pick him up next year as any of the other 29 teams.

Washington will be a restricted free agent next summer if a team picks him, likes him and wants to keep him. The case where Spurs have as much chance is the case where Washington "sucks".

[Kori Ellis]

But if I'm correct, the Spurs will have just as much chance to pick him up next year as any of the other 29 teams.

Most of the midseason contracts that are signed by young players (outside of 10 day contracts) are a guarantee for the rest of the current season and a team option for the following season. Even training camp contracts, the team has an option for the following season (if they were to sign them for the rest of the current year). The 2-year/2nd year team option is pretty standard.

[ChumpDumper]

The Nuggets waived Jelani McCoy again last night.

That may have influenced the timing.

EDIT: Duh. Why didn't I get that from tomcat's post? It was late/early I guess.

[timvp]

According to a source of the Toros, Langford beat out Jeremy Richardson, Marcus Williams, Kaniel Dickens and Dermarr Johnson in the Spurs workout in drills and 1 on 1. Spurs were high on Richardson, ie inviting him in a day early and to the game but Langford abused him.

Langford also blasted the competition in the Denver workout that included Marcus Williams and Nugget players Bobby Jones and Von Wafer. Jelani McCoy was waived the next day but Kenyon Martin went down that nite. Enter need for a big.

I say we are selling Langford short as the Spurs are high on him. RC was at the game last night to see firsthand before the decision was made. Turned out Langford had some sort of staph infection and could not practice or anything. Out 12 days but still good enough to make it I guess.This looks like some good info :tu

I'm not surprised that Langford is a workout wonder. However, I question how that'll translate to the NBA.


Almost forgot, when Kenyon Martin went down for the Nuggets, they resigned Jelani McCoy.

Nuggets just waived McCoy and requested info on Langford's injury from the Toros Thursday morning. Could have forced Spurs to move quicker.

D Wash will be fine. I dont see him in the dleague long. He will be signed soon.Yeah, the Nuggets interested in Langford makes sense and makes it understandable why the Spurs seemingly moved in such a rush. It looks sloppy from the outside but it's more logical if the Nuggets or another team were starting to talk with Langford about bringing him in.

Regarding DWash, if the Warriors can get rid of Hudson in time, Washington would be a natural fit in Nelson's system.

[urunobili]

Regarding DWash, if the Warriors can get rid of Hudson in time, Washington would be a natural fit in Nelson's system.
was it really that he would never make it as a Spur system player due to his game style? i thought Pop and FO was exited about his game and his upside... there must be something we don;t know

[ChumpDumper]

If it's points the Toros are looking for, Guillermo Diaz was apparently just waived by Anaheim. Whomever they may want, the Toros get first shot at waived or otherwise available players.

[timvp]

I've looked at all of Langford's stats and I don't see anything that tells me he can play. He did nothing of note in D-League last year. In summer league he's never done anything. In preseason for the Spurs he did nothing. He was pretty good at Kansas but nobody thought he was going to get drafted.

I think the Spurs have been duped by a tweener workout wonder. And really, the last thing this team needs is a short shooting guard. Even with Barry and Manu out the Spurs have enough able bodies. Especially when Pop can go to the Parker-Vaughn backcourt like he did at times against the Bulls.

I'd say the highest level of play Langford has played at was summer league this year. In Vegas, this guy averaged 2 points and 1 rebound in ten minutes per game. He had no assists. His play picked up a tad in Utah but he was still about the sixth or seventh best player on that team. Viktor Sanikidze, for example, but up better stats in less minutes in Utah.

I put zero stock in Langford putting up big numbers in the D-League this season. In the D-League, shooting guard is by far the easiest position. And it's also the least transferable to the NBA. It's just too easy for shooting guards to score due to the lack of decent bigmen and lack of perimeter defenders.

If the Spurs decide Langford is the one to keep over Washington and Williams, it'll be a mistake.

[picnroll]

In Langford, short of continuing injury disasters, aren't we primarily talking about a practice body? A guy in practice who can give minutes at the one or the two?

[timvp]

In Langford, short of continuing injury disasters, aren't we primarily talking about a practice body? A guy in practice who can give minutes at the one or the two?Well, seeing how they picked Langford over all those other prospects, one has to assume the Spurs see some long-term potential in him. If they didn't, they could have just kept Marcus Williams or Darius Washington as a practice dummy.

I just see no potential on the NBA level for Langford.

[SenorSpur]

And there were other NBA teams interested in him when the Spurs signed him, I believe. So it's likely he might not clear waivers and someone with grab him.

I believe most of us are concerned with the fact that this kid seemingly had some talent and upside which wouldn've justified a long-term investment. He's probably not at the true backup PG level yet, but no doubt he's a comer.

Seeing as how there are no current backup PG options available, it's puzzling to understand why he didn't get a longer look. After all, if he wasn't worth a spot, they why was Beno made expendable?

[ChumpDumper]

I believe most of us are concerned with the fact that this kid seemingly had some talent and upside which wouldn've justified a long-term investment. He's probably not at the true backup PG level yet, but no doubt he's a comer.

Seeing as how there are no current backup PG options available, it's puzzling to understand why he didn't get a longer look. After all, if he wasn't worth a spot, they why was Beno made expendable?Beno made himself expendable, and the Spurs ended up with just enough room under the tax threshold for one project. They have chosen Langford as that project for now.

[Quasar]

Well, seeing how they picked Langford over all those other prospects, one has to assume the Spurs see some long-term potential in him.

Remember this is the same team that picked Marcus Williams in the first place :)

It is disappointing that they just dropped Washington like that... He seemed to have raw potential and the determination make something out of it!

[Bruno]

timvp is giving some Melvin Sanders' love to Keith Langford.

Anyway, if Spurs sign today Langford and if Washington isn't claimed from waivers, Spurs will have to waive both Langford and Williams before January 10th to stay below the Luxury Tax.

[Whisky Dog]

I remember seeing Langford play and he just seems undersized to be a good option at the 2 or 3.

[BeerIsGood!]

So both have to be waived by January 1st? The Spurs will then have 2 open roster spots?

[Bruno]

So both have to be waived by January 1st? The Spurs will then have 2 open roster spots?

Yes, by January 10th.

[Mr. Body]

Anyway, if Spurs sign today Langford and if Washington isn't claimed from waivers, Spurs will have to waive both Langford and Williams before January 10th to stay below the Luxury Tax.

Wow. I don't use the term that much, but that's pretty retarded. So we're looking at a Spurs roster very soon having only 13 players?

[ChumpDumper]

Which one of these guys is worth $3 million?

[Mr. Body]

Which one of these guys is worth $3 million?

Are you talking to me? It seems the situation is that the Spurs were fine keeping Washington - they were under the luxury cap. But then they went for Williams and Langford, both of whom they can't afford if Washington isn't picked off waivers. They never could afford them. Granted, it's somewhat likely a team grabs Washington, in which things are okay, but if no one does, aren't they stuck with 13 the rest of the year (and maybe 10-day contracts)?

The answer would be, Washington wasn't worth the money for the rest of the year, because he wasn't a good player in the system. That's fine.

[ChumpDumper]

There's no telling what the Spurs actually end up doing. We said they would never pay the luxury tax and they have more than once.

[Bruno]

Granted, it's somewhat likely a team grabs Washington, in which things are okay, but if no one does, aren't they stuck with 13 the rest of the year (and maybe 10-day contracts)?


If no one pick Washington, Spurs aren't stuck to 13 players for the rest of the year.
They still can sign a player for the rest of the season later in the season (like at the end of January). This player could even be Langford or Williams. Before signing a player for the rest of the year, they will be able to test some players with 10 days contract to see which one is worse keeping until the end of the season.

[Mr. Body]

If no one pick Washington, Spurs aren't stuck to 13 players for the rest of the year.
They still can sign a player for the rest of the season later in the season (like at the end of January). This player could even be Langford or Williams. Before signing a player for the rest of the year, they will be able to test some players with 10 days contract to see which one is worse keeping until the end of the season.

Don't any future signings cost against the luxury tax as well?

[timvp]

timvp is giving some Melvin Sanders' love to Keith Langford. I had to hold myself from comparing Langford to Sanders. Langford isn't that bad. :)

BTW, where is Sanders these days? I assume somewhere in Europe.


Anyway, if Spurs sign today Langford and if Washington isn't claimed from waivers, Spurs will have to waive both Langford and Williams before January 10th to stay below the Luxury Tax.Yeah that looks like the case as long as that $27K figure is accurate. Maybe they'll just keep both until the 10th, waive both and then if Washington is still around they can rotate and sign the players to ten-day contracts. Six ten day contracts would put the team to around April. And then perhaps the team will sign one of them to go into the playoffs with.

This end of the roster juggling will be pretty interesting. We'll see if another team jumps in and messes it up by signing one of the players.

[mVp]

Wow... I didn’t see this coming...

[Bruno]

Don't any future signings cost against the luxury tax as well?

After counting guaranteed salary and training camp money. Spurs have, if they want to stay below the tax, a credit of 176 days to use for a player paid the minimum.

When a player is waived, he stays two days on the waivers and it count against the day credit.

Spurs have spend 62 days on Washington.
If Spurs waive Williams on January 10th, he will cost 18 days.
If Spurs waive Langford on January 10th, he will cost 16 days.

Spurs will have spend 96 days for these 3 players. They still would have 80 days left. They can use these 80 days like they want. They can, as an example, sign a player on January 28th for the rest of the season.

[Bruno]

BTW, where is Sanders these days? I assume somewhere in Europe.


Sanders signed with a Greek team this summer but he has had a car crash during the preseason. He has now recovered from the injury and has been lately traded to Malaga (a good Spanish team).
Sanders will make some money in Europe if he get back at his previous level because, as a Georgian, he doesn't count against American's quotas.

[dwashfan]

Someone posted the wrong stats for Darius, I got these from his site at DWash.net:

University of Memphis
2004-06 College C-USA Statistics

Season by Season Averages

2004-2005 (Freshman yr)
35.1 MPG
15.4 PPG
3.6 RPG
3.8 APG

2005-2006 (Sophmore yr)
26.5 MPG
13.5 PPG
2.8 RPG
3.1 APG

College CAREER TOTALS (73 total games played):
Total Points: 1054
Total 3 pointers: 92
Total Assists: 254
Total Steals: 108
Total Free Throws Made:270
Total Blocks: 6
Total Games Played: 73

Darius is full of potential and I think the Spurs will regret not keeping him. They need some young blood especially as often as they are getting injured this season. It may be better for him though because look how good Beno and Scola are doing in another system. Wherever Darius goes he will do well. Personally I would love to see him play for Golden State. He is one of the few point guards in the league that can defend Baron Davis. The next couple weeks should be interesting. I don't think he will play for the Toros without being signed by the Spurs. I know I wouldn't not when I could go overseas or to another team and play for real money.

[Indazone]

Washington will end up on another team and become a superstar. LOL

Spurs letting go of Scola, Udrih, and now Washington for what???

NOTHING!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[LaMarcus Bryant]

you have got to be fucking shitting me

[David@SLCC]

I think Washington should not be discouraged. Avery got waived by the Spurs early in his career and then got back. The same could happen with him.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Exactly what I was thinking. ^

[dwashfan]

I just found this on his site: http://dwash.net/HOME/tabid/70/Default.aspx

PERSONAL BLOG

12/28/07
I am disappointed to announce that the San Antonio Spurs waived me today after playing 18 games for them. It is never easy to be waived from a team but I understand their decision.

I would like to personally thank Coach and everyone at the Spurs for allowing me the opportunity to learn from and play with the best. I really am thankful for the veteran players especially Robert Horry that helped show me the way in my first season. And, of course I want to thank the fans for being so supportive of me.

I don't know what's next but for now I will work hard in the gym and prepare myself for the next move. Hopefully I will be able to report more in the next week or so. Thanks for visiting my site. [/I]

[wildbill2u]

STop the Presses! Big news! An undrafted rookie free agent is waived.

Does anyone see a special player in these Season averages:

Season Team G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
07-08 SAS 18 0 8.1 0.438 0.333 0.538 0.2 0.9 1.1 0.8 0.3 0.0 0.78 0.90 2.9

Oh, the humanity!

[loveforthegame]

I can't remember if it was timvp or Bruno who called this? But the Spurs have till the 10th to decide on Williams and/or Langford.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA122907.06C.BKNspurs.langford.2eb2d31.html

Langford joins Spurs in time to face Toronto

Web Posted: 12/29/2007 12:19 AM CST

Mike Monroe
Express-News

With shooting guards Manu Ginobili and Brent Barry both on the shelf with injuries, the Spurs moved to shore up their thinning wing positions on Friday by calling up a second wing player from their Austin Toros affiliate in the NBA Development League.

Keith Langford, a 6-foot-4 shooting guard from Kansas, joined the Spurs in time to suit up for Friday's home game against the Toronto Raptors.

Langford's signing did not come in time for him to have a practice with the Spurs, but he had been in training camp.

The Spurs on Wednesday had called up small forward Marcus Williams from the Toros, which had given them 15 players under contract, the league maximum. To make room for Langford, point guard Darius Washington was released.

Washington played in 18 games, averaging 2.9 points and 0.8 assists. He had been assigned to the Toros in early December, and then recalled after Tony Parker was injured.

Neither Langford's nor Williams' contract is guaranteed, and the Spurs will have until Jan. 10 to decide if they will keep either player, or both, for the remainder of the season. The NBA requires that all players under contract as of Jan. 10 be guaranteed for the remainder of the season.

In nine games with Austin, Langford averaged 23.2 points, 6.4 rebounds and 3.4 assists.

"It's another body," Popovich said. "You never know what might happen. Maybe they will get in a game, and maybe they won't."

With the Spurs struggling mightily in the first half, Langford made his NBA debut much sooner than expected. He replaced Bruce Bowen after a timeout with 8:39 left in the first half. Playing just over four minutes, Langford missed his only shot and committed a foul.

Williams, who played the final two minutes of Wednesday's game against the Bulls, did not play Friday.

In all likelihood, the Spurs will keep only one of the two players past the Jan. 10 contract guarantee date. Though both are believed to be on rookie minimum contracts, the Spurs would slide just over the league's luxury tax threshold if both players were guaranteed.

[Bruno]

So McDonald said that Spurs can keep one player past January 10th and stay below the tax. I guess that, if he is working like Ludden, he is getting this info from Spurs. So, Either I've a mistake (it won't be the first nor the last time) or ESPN number was false or Spurs know that Washington will be claim from waivers.

If Spurs keep one, I hope it will be Williams because he seems to have a higher upside than Langford and because I like him :). If Spurs want to have some help for this year, there are better options than Williams and Langford. If Washington is picked from waivers, Spurs should have enough space below the Luxury tax to end up the season with a 15 men roster.

[Budkin]

So with all these former Toros players being waived, does that mean they will no longer be playing for the Toros? I think they are all a good fit at least in the D-League.

[ChumpDumper]

So with all these former Toros players being waived, does that mean they will no longer be playing for the Toros? I think they are all a good fit at least in the D-League.Williams will likely be back on the Toros. I think Washington might go to Europe if he clears waivers, but I believe he could rejoin the Toros if he wanted to stay in the D-League. I'm pretty sure Sean Banks stayed on with Tulsa for a few games after he was waived by the Hornets a couple of seasons back.

[Budkin]

Thanks ChumpDumper- as always you've got the Toros knowledge!

[LaMarcus Bryant]

ChumpDumper gets special treatment from people in the Toros organization.

[ChumpDumper]

Nothing more than any season ticket holder, really.

[remingtonbo2001]

I thought Darius had more raw talent than either Langford and Williams combined.

I liked his size and speed. I assumed he would make various mistakes, but I figured if he kept at it he would eventually learn the system.]

I also thought he would be a nice change of pace from Tony, being a more physical point. I guess the Spurs didn't want to take the time to mold him.

Don't really know much about Langford, and to be quite honest, don't really care to know.

[ChumpDumper]

:lol you don't really know much about Langford except the total amount of his raw talent.

Why do you not care? You pick and chose whom to care about when they become Spurs based soley upon the player he is replacing?

Unfortunately for Darius, he wasn't improving his game quickly enough for the Spurs liking. You can certainly say it's not fair if that's your opinion, but there are only so many roster spots and so much money to spend.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

What I do not understand is how Pop et al can consider the first third of a season of a ROOKIE POINT GUARD's play to be worthy of just ditching him like that.

its stupid, just flat out stupid, a case of overanalyzing the situation IMO

he's a rookie
of the hardest position to learn

what did they expect, him to be churning out triple doubles off the bench after just 3 months in the system?

[ChumpDumper]

I think they expected more improvement than they saw. He probably suffered by comparison to Ian's development more than anything. It will be interesting to see if any other NBA team picks him up.

[The Truth #6]

I thought it took a year to learn the Toros system...