Compressed Air Car

[Nbadan]

Remember when it was American car companies coming up with innovative technologies of the future?


http://www.rawstory.com/images/other/minicat010408.jpg

Revolutionary air car runs on compressed air
Mike Aivaz and Muriel Kane
Published: Friday January 4, 2008


BBC News is reporting that a French company has developed a pollution-free car which runs on compressed air. India's Tata Motors has the car under production and it may be on sale in Europe and India by the end of the year.

The air car, also known as the Mini-CAT or City Cat, can be refueled in minutes from an air compressor at specially equipped gas stations and can go 200 km on a 1.5 euro fill-up -- roughly 125 miles for $3. The top speed will be almost 70 mph and the cost of the vehicle as low as $7000.

The car features a fibreglass body and a revolutionary electrical system and is completely computer-controlled. It is powered by the expansion of compressed air, using no combustion at all, and the exhaust is entirely clean and cool enough for use in the internal air conditioning system.

Tata Motors is known for its interest in innovation and has been selling compressed gas buses since 2000. It is currently working on producing the world's cheapest car, which will be almost 100% plastic and will sell in India for about $2500.

Tata is also expanding into the world market. It acquired Korea's Daweoo in 2004 and is now the top bidder to purchase the originally British Jaguar and Land Rover lines from the United States' troubled Ford Motor Company.


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[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Why do all the innovative cars designed look like the product of some designer on an acid trip?

[Extra Stout]

Remember when it was American car companies coming up with innovative technologies of the future?
No, I wasn't alive before World War II.

[E20]

Why do all the innovative cars designed look like the product of some designer on an acid trip?
Because that is what they were on when they thought of a car that runs on air.

[xrayzebra]

i could never buy a car like that

what would happen if i got in a wreck with a tahoe? i need to feel safe


If you want a car in the future you may be forced to own
one these motor scooters, they call cars. That is the way
the environmentalist want you to go. Got to save Mother
Earth because she is going to be a cold place to live otherwise.
Oh, you haven't heard. We are in a cooling period now.


Brrrrrrrr (http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977220586&grpId=3659174697244816&nav=Groupspace)

[temujin]

Yes, one of the problem with this car is that it does NOT have an engine that warms the universe -and the inside of the car in cold days- wasting 80% of the energy introduced.

Too simple.
Too few components.
Too clean.

What a nightmare.

[Phenomanul]

How much electricity is required to compress the air in the first place? That isn't as cheap or as environmentally friendly as let on.... Still, a very practical alternative to driving around on a hydrogen 'bomb' or a gasoline/diesel tank.

Hopefully the air compressors are all powered by solar, wind, wave and geothermal (the only true green energies).

[Mr. Peabody]

How much electricity is required to compress the air in the first place? That isn't as cheap or as environmentally friendly as let on.... Still, a very practical alternative to driving around on a hydrogen 'bomb' or a gasoline/diesel tank.

Hopefully the air compressors are all powered by solar, wind, wave and geothermal (the only true green energies).

I think the air compressors are run on gasoline powered generators.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Yes, one of the problem with this car is that it does NOT have an engine that warms the universe -and the inside of the car in cold days- wasting 80% of the energy introduced.

Too simple.
Too few components.
Too clean.

What a nightmare.

What happens when this thing gets in a head on with another vehicle? It looks like the engine would be in the back seat in a head on with a Dodge Neon.

[whottt]

This car was first reported on about a year ago....way to be on the cutting edge :tu

[Gerryatrics]

Hmmmm, never mind then, just watched the video, that thing is big and ugly, not tiny and ugly. Still looks like it would disintegrate in a high speed head-on collision though.

[whottt]

I'd buy one...

The idea is that once everyone is driving them, the danger presented by collisions is much less.


I'll still keep my jeep on the side though...

[mikejones99]

you will be forced to get rid of the large heavy suv's and if you are at fault in the accident you lose $100000 and a finger

[Wild Cobra]

If you want a car in the future you may be forced to own
one these motor scooters, they call cars. That is the way
the environmentalist want you to go. Got to save Mother
Earth because she is going to be a cold place to live otherwise.
Oh, you haven't heard. We are in a cooling period now.


Brrrrrrrr (http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977220586&grpId=3659174697244816&nav=Groupspace)
What gets me is that these cars still use power from what ever source produces the electricity to compress the air. What is it? More coal plants? Oil powered turbine generators?

Even at that. The car is so dinky... Who would want it? How does it fare for the USA crash safety standards? How dangerous is the tank if the exhaust fitting gets broken?

Ever see an oxygen tank when the end gets snapped off? At 2500+ PSI, it takes off like a rocket, and goes right through concrete walls! If I remember right, nitrogen can be compressed more than oxygen, and makes up about 78% of air.

This design would never fly in the USA. Too many safety issues. Still not enough power storage.

Why haven't we seen much on the new hydrogen cells. Carbon nano-tubes hold hydrogen very well at safe pressures. Cannot do that with air. This is a recent breakthrough that has previously hampered hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicles. It was not safe and feasible to hold enough hydrogen fuel for any reasonable distance between fill ups. Now it is possible. There is now only one problem that I am aware of with hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, besides the cost of the hydrogen. That is the membrane life. Fuel cells go bad rather fast unless extremely pure hydrogen is used. Not very feasible. The cost is still high, but if it lasts for 100,000+ miles, does it matter? Right now, they cannot even warrantee then for 5,000 miles, unless there are farther developments I'm not aware of.

Oh... let's not forget the most important thing. At about 44 KWH of electricity to produce the equivalent of 1 gallon of gasoline, where do we get the electricity to hake all the hydrogen?

Let's see...

at $0.0.8 per KWH, that is $3.52 per gallon equivalent just for the electricity the break the hydrogen out of water through electrolysis. Add profit, taxes, equipment maintenance, employee costs, etc...

How much would a hydrogen powered car cost to fuel?

[Wild Cobra]

This car was first reported on about a year ago....way to be on the cutting edge :tu
Yep, I seem to remember a thing about it. It was a joke then, and a joke now.

I see no future in it. Just a later joke in the history books, like the patent on recovery of CH4 from us mortals. I did a quick internet check, but failed to find it. I recall seeing a patent issued before the computer age. A devise was inserted up the ass to collect methane... I see this car about as appealing to people as having such a devise inserted.... Maybe the same people like it?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Ever see an oxygen tank when the end gets snapped off? At 2500+ PSI, it takes off like a rocket, and goes right through concrete walls! If I remember right, nitrogen can be compressed more than oxygen, and makes up about 78% of air.

Good point. This thing would obviously have way more than 2500 PSI in it (a scuba tank holds about 3000 psi when full).

Go to about the two minute mark and watch the steel cylinder hit with a .3006 round causing an explosive decompression.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx4XfFVRArQ

[boutons_]

yep, an unattached aluminum air cylinder shot with a bullet by a drunk red-neck gun freak behaves just like a (steel? carbon fiber?) air cylinder securely wedged into a car frame. yep, great Aggie science. :lol

I note how the right-wingers are uniformly against this and any new idea, wanting retrogressively to "conserve" the mostly unsustainable status quo.

If you don't like the car, STFU and get out of the way of progress and experimentation.

And of course steel gasoline reservoirs in cars are NEVER punctured, catch fire, explode, except in movie stunts for the demographics of 12-year-old boys and NASCAR red-necks.

Yes, of course it takes electrical energy to run the compress energy into a cylinder. They haven't figured out how to create energy from nothing.

Cylinders could be refilled overnight when peak electricity capacity is wasted There is no refinery to build, no expensive pipeline distribution system, no ANWR to rape, and no pollution, no batteries to wear out, no multi-$T wars for oil to be fought.

$3/cylinder for 125 miles vs $12+++ for gasoline. yep, a really bad deal.

[some_user86]

This car was first reported on about a year ago....way to be on the cutting edge :tu

I can one-up you. I remember Peter Jennings having a broadcast on this first around 2004. At the time, it could do a max of 50 mph. I didn't bother to check if that has changed.

[boutons_]

Nothing new under the sun. Here's 50 year old "transportation appliance" for when the nasty US govt intervened in the "free market" to ration gasoline.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/16/automobiles/collectibles/16CROSLEY.html

If US gasoline was "rationed" with European-level gas taxes putting gasoline at $7/gallon, the USA would finally quit over-consuming oil to the detriment of the entire planet.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

yep, an unattached aluminum air cylinder shot with a bullet by a drunk red-neck gun freak behaves just like a (steel? carbon fiber?) air cylinder securely wedged into a car frame. yep, great Aggie science. :lol


You're a fucking retard. It doesn't matter whether it's a cylinder or wedged in a car frame. You have a substance under pressure in a confined space. When something catastrophically ruptures said confined space, the pressure escapes like you saw in the video.

Wedged securely in a car frame? Any high velocity wreck in an automobile usually ends up with said vehicle in multiple pieces. In this scenario, you'd not only have multiple pieces, but you'd potentially have half a car rocketing across a road taking out anything in its place.




I note how the right-wingers are uniformly against this and any new idea, wanting retrogressively to "conserve" the mostly unsustainable status quo.


I notice how you are a fucking retard. I think any alternative fuel ideas are great ones, being dependent on oil sucks. At the same time, I could swear we're in the US of A, which means I'm entitled to voice my concerns over this thing. And namely the safety of this vehicle in a collision is a valid concern.



If you don't like the car, STFU and get out of the way of progress and experimentation.


Blow me you fucking commie bitch. And I didn't realize my post here on Spurstalk had the power to stifle experimentation for alternative fuel sources half way around the world. You really must be wearing a tin foil hat :lol



And of course steel gasoline reservoirs in cars are NEVER punctured, catch fire, explode, except in movie stunts for the demographics of 12-year-old boys and NASCAR red-necks.


Um, they do. And the point remains that any new automobile has to undergo crash testing to check for things like how easy it is to rupture fuel tanks.




Yes, of course it takes electrical energy to run the compress energy into a cylinder. They haven't figured out how to create energy from nothing.


You sound like the idiots who think ethanol is such a great idea when it's taking more energy to produce the ethanol for use in gasoline than it costs to refine normal gasoline.



Cylinders could be refilled overnight when peak electricity capacity is wasted There is no refinery to build, no expensive pipeline distribution system, no ANWR to rape, and no pollution, no batteries to wear out, no multi-$T wars for oil to be fought.


So you want to put an air compressor in everyone's home? Who writes the check for $50K for each of them? Or is everyone supposed to stop off at the corner air store every morning for a new cylinder that can instantaneously be wedged in to their oh-so-secure vehicle frame as you put it? You don't even make sense with your own post.

And no pollution? You realize the majority of compressed air generators run off of gas/deisel or are plugged into the electric grid. So try again.



$3/cylinder for 125 miles vs $12+++ for gasoline. yep, a really bad deal.

It is if a fender bender gets you killed.

Look, I know you're dumber than a rock and get all your talking points from salon and democrapticunderground.org, but honestly, shut the fuck up until you grow up and have some semblance of common sense to apply to anything going on in the world.

Alternative fuel research is great, and as prices rise it puts more pressure on entrepreneurs and companies to develop an alternative, and this has got some promise, but not if the only way you can drive one is to strap into a death trap.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Nothing new under the sun. Here's 50 year old "transportation appliance" for when the nasty US govt intervened in the "free market" to ration gasoline.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/16/automobiles/collectibles/16CROSLEY.html

If US gasoline was "rationed" with European-level gas taxes putting gasoline at $7/gallon, the USA would finally quit over-consuming oil to the detriment of the entire planet.

Cool, so explain your plan for getting the Chinese, whom are on the way to becoming the #1 consumers of gasoline in the world, to cut back their consumption. Oh wait, that's probably the fault of Bush and the big oil companies too, right?

[Wild Cobra]

I note how the right-wingers are uniformly against this and any new idea, wanting retrogressively to "conserve" the mostly unsustainable status quo.
Not so. We are just smart enough to look at the pros and cons of an idea. If there were no disastrous probabilities involved, I would be for it. So would others.


If you don't like the car, STFU and get out of the way of progress and experimentation.
I'm not in the way of either. I simply pointed out real concerns. It is not progress anyway if the bad outweighs the good.


And of course steel gasoline reservoirs in cars are NEVER punctured, catch fire, explode, except in movie stunts for the demographics of 12-year-old boys and NASCAR red-necks.
I don't think you realize the differences in dangers. Yes, gas fuel tanks are dangerous under the right conditions, but they rarely cause serious problems. Compressed air to the pressures required is extremely more dangerous. Not just dangerous.

Yes, of course it takes electrical energy to run the compress energy into a cylinder. They haven't figured out how to create energy from nothing.
I just wanted to point out to people the energy isn't free. Some people seem to think so.


Cylinders could be refilled overnight when peak electricity capacity is wasted There is no refinery to build, no expensive pipeline distribution system, no ANWR to rape, and no pollution, no batteries to wear out, no multi-$T wars for oil to be fought.
Very true. Does it outweigh the downside?


$3/cylinder for 125 miles vs $12+++ for gasoline. yep, a really bad deal.
And with that size of a car, the same cost per mile, or better, can probably be achieved with a hybrid with a Briggs and Stratton lawn mower engine. You don't have the pressure problems then.

[SouthernFried]

"We need to be more innovative and cutting edge...but, we need to tax the crap outta those evil corporations first."

Is this ironic...or a dichotomy? Mebbe schizophrenic? Paranormal?

Nah, just plain 'ol dumb.

[Wild Cobra]

Good point. This thing would obviously have way more than 2500 PSI in it (a scuba tank holds about 3000 psi when full).

Go to about the two minute mark and watch the steel cylinder hit with a .3006 round causing an explosive decompression.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx4XfFVRArQ
OK, after watching the video, I would like to make a few observations and extrapolate using some simple math.
Now a 30-06 bullet has a 0.3" diameter. At 2500 PSI, this amounts to a force of 178 pounds of thrust to propel the tank. A compressed car will have a larger diameter tube that could easily be sheared in an accident. If we assume, to get the volume needed, it is either a 1/2" or 3/4" ID tube, the forces are far greater. The 1/2" ID tube if sheared would have a thrust of 481 pounds. This is nearly three times greater forces. The 3/4 ID would produce 1104 pounds of thrust. Almost six times the energy.

Now what I haven't been able to find is a video of a tank getting it's top sheared off. Mythbusters proved the myth, and it propelled a cylinder through a concrete wall!

Now when dealing with a tank to hold such energy, the air will be compressed to a liquid form. That is why it 3000 PSI or so. Once it gets to a liquid state, the pressure remains stable from almost no liquid to full liquid. Expansion space needs to be maintained also. Now I don't know the pressure at room temperature that air turns to liquid, but at 3000 PSI, the ½" is 589 pounds of thrust, and the ¾ is 1325. Now I bring up the liquid aspect of it because it greatly changes the duration of the thrust. If the cylinder was just compressed gas, it would only be maybe a few seconds. Liquid for changes that to several seconds, maybe beyond a minute or so.

Meanwhile, enjoy this video:

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[boutons_]

So you retrogressives kill this car because of the "pressure" problem? The pressure problem, if it even exists, is insoluble by the most advanced technology culture in the history of the universe?

What ballsy, courageous, innnovative attitude. Macho Men showing their true chickenshit nature.

As the drunk, infantile red-neck demonstrated, a hole in a compressed tank ONLY causes the tank to decompress, NOT to explode, since there is no explosive or fuel involved.

Compared to highly flammable, explosive gasoline, a problem that remains UNSOLVED in current vehicules, compressed air is an extremely safe choice for storing energy.

So the US should never try to fix its own foreign oil dependence, nor reduce greenhouse gases, simply because China isn't? great logic masquerading as a pre-text to "conserve" do nothing. Since when does the USA let China set the example?

[Wild Cobra]

Say what you will Boutons. To solve the structural integrity problems to hold such pressures, you defeat the ability of the vehicle to get great mileage per dollar, or you going to build it all out of some super titanium alloy?

Let other countries have such a vehicle. We have certain safety standards here in the USA that must be met. People complain about out mileage standards, but they are in compromise with safety standards. To increase on is to decrease another without some serious breakthrough that simply cannot be legislated.

Here is a synopsis of th Mythbusters episode:


Can a cracked valve on a compressed-air cylinder actually blast the tank right through a cinder-block wall? Could the Mythbusters get a speedboat to run on air cylinders, and could the build team get an engine running on gunpowder?


The tank they were using went through the wall, and the went partway into the bunker wall, making a large dent.

Air Cylinder Rocket (http://www.tv.com/mythbusters/air-cylinder-rocket/episode/878206/summary.html) Episode Number: 75 Season Num: 4 First Aired: Wednesday October 18, 2006

Oh... almost forgot. An explosion does not have to be a fuel/oxidizer mix. Definition:

explosion (plural explosions)

1. A violent release of energy (sometimes mechanical, nuclear, or chemical.)
2. A bursting due to pressure.
3. The sound of an explosion.
4. A sudden increase.
5. A sudden outburst.

[Slomo]

Actually it is almost impossible to make an air cylinder explode. WC you are citing the mythbusters, who proved exactly that. They had to strap explosive (or do something else similarly extreme) to a scuba tank for it to "explode" (after shooting at it with all sorts of guns). All documented explosion of air tanks were the result of faulty/damaged tanks that were not maintained/inspected properly.

If you knock off the valve of a loose tank, that tank will fly around. On the other hand if the tank is safely strapped to something heavy (a car?) the most danger is actually for your eardrums (very loud hissing).

Look at the amount of scuba tanks around the world and then look at how many of those exploded - it's a pretty good indication of how safe air tanks are.

Personally I'm not convinced that compressed air cars are the future of automotion, but at least let's keep the exploding tank argument out of it. A tank full of flammable liquid is much more dangerous (and we also know from experience that explosions or even fires are not that common).

For the record, steel Scuba tanks are filled to 4400 PSI (not in the US though).

[Slomo]

Let other countries have such a vehicle. We have certain safety standards here in the USA that must be met. People complain about out mileage standards, but they are in compromise with safety standards. To increase on is to decrease another without some serious breakthrough that simply cannot be legislated.
I'm not that familiar with US car safety standards, but if I remember correctly they are not as high as in Europe (definitely not higher).

[Slomo]

I don't remember the air rocket episode. But here's a question: Was the cylinder allowed to gather momentum or was it set against the wall when the valve was sheared off?

Because without the momentum, it is impossible for it to go through a proper wall.

Edit: WC check the "Jaws" episode, where they tried to make the cylinder explode (like in the movie).

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

So you retrogressives kill this car because of the "pressure" problem? The pressure problem, if it even exists, is insoluble by the most advanced technology culture in the history of the universe?

What ballsy, courageous, innnovative attitude. Macho Men showing their true chickenshit nature.

As the drunk, infantile red-neck demonstrated, a hole in a compressed tank ONLY causes the tank to decompress, NOT to explode, since there is no explosive or fuel involved.

Compared to highly flammable, explosive gasoline, a problem that remains UNSOLVED in current vehicules, compressed air is an extremely safe choice for storing energy.

So the US should never try to fix its own foreign oil dependence, nor reduce greenhouse gases, simply because China isn't? great logic masquerading as a pre-text to "conserve" do nothing. Since when does the USA let China set the example?

You're right, why should science and reality get in the way of your little vaginal bitch fest? Carry on, douche.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Slomo,

Check out what a cylinder going off in a car does:

http://www.thescubaguide.com/gear/tanks/safety.aspx

I'm envisioning a scenario where an accident shears the tank loose with some other piece of the vehicle still attached to it. Then you've got a projectile bouncing around.

Outside of the safety problem, the compressed air car has a bigger problem - how do you generate the necessary air and transfer it to the vehicle in a cost effective manner?

I teach scuba diving, and maintaining the compressor is a bitch. And it sucks down a lot of electricity, and the gas powered ones are even worse. But I don't know why I'm worrying about shit like that, croutons says we don't have to take that part of the equation into account.

I guess he's planning on free energy or some sort of perpetual motion compression machine :lol

[Slomo]

Slomo,

Check out what a cylinder going off in a car does:

http://www.thescubaguide.com/gear/tanks/safety.aspx

I'm envisioning a scenario where an accident shears the tank loose with some other piece of the vehicle still attached to it. Then you've got a projectile bouncing around.

Outside of the safety problem, the compressed air car has a bigger problem - how do you generate the necessary air and transfer it to the vehicle in a cost effective manner?

I teach scuba diving, and maintaining the compressor is a bitch. And it sucks down a lot of electricity, and the gas powered ones are even worse. But I don't know why I'm worrying about shit like that, croutons says we don't have to take that part of the equation into account.

I guess he's planning on free energy or some sort of perpetual motion compression machine :lolThe energy discussion is a valid one and I'm not touching it. But the exploding tank is not a likely scenario (not more likely than an exploding tank filled with gasoline anyway).

Even in your link the tank didn't really exploded, it ruptured and it did so because it was corroded (a lot I might add - the guy owning it is an idiot). As I said in my other posts this part of the problem (exploding tank) is not difficult to solve.

I know you're an experienced diver (so am I) and we both know there are safety procedure to be obeyed in order to be safe. The same is true for cars.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I know you're an experienced diver (so am I) and we both know there are safety procedure to be obeyed in order to be safe. The same is true for cars.

I agree, unfortunately (at least here in America) you have to design to the lowest common denominator (idiot). I could see people not maintaining them and having corrosion problems, I could also see them getting compromised in nasty wrecks and bouncing around the highway until the energy is dissipated.

The safety concern for me is really secondary to the problem of generating the compressed air for the tanks, because you know the reservoir would be a lot bigger than a typical AL80 or steel 100 scuba tank...

[remingtonbo2001]

I agree, unfortunately (at least here in America) you have to design to the lowest common denominator (idiot). I could see people not maintaining them and having corrosion problems, I could also see them getting compromised in nasty wrecks and bouncing around the highway until the energy is dissipated.

The safety concern for me is really secondary to the problem of generating the compressed air for the tanks, because you know the reservoir would be a lot bigger than a typical AL80 or steel 100 scuba tank...

:depressed If Boutons only had a little common sense and a slightly higher IQ then maybe America could've of realized the dream of air compression vehicles stretching from highway to highway.

HOWEVER, I am curious to the results of a collision involving an air compressed vehicle with a gasoline powered vehicle.

Wouldn't that cause a massive explosion?

[boutons_]

Until actual collision experiments are performed on compressed air cars, my thought experiments are in/valid as anybody else's.

The difference is I'm willing to see a new idea attempted, while you right-winger shit on new ideas.

[xrayzebra]

Here you go, the car of the future. It will work really, really good for boutons, with all his hot air.
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z273/xrayzebra/futurecar.gif

[George Gervin's Afro]

Until actual collision experiments are performed on compressed air cars, my thought experiments are in/valid as anybody else's.

The difference is I'm willing to see a new idea attempted, while you right-winger shit on new ideas.


haven't you heard? oil and gasoline powered vehicles are the wave of the future.. :rolleyes

[Slomo]

:depressed If Boutons only had a little common sense and a slightly higher IQ then maybe America could've of realized the dream of air compression vehicles stretching from highway to highway.

HOWEVER, I am curious to the results of a collision involving an air compressed vehicle with a gasoline powered vehicle.

Wouldn't that cause a massive explosion?Do not confuse air and oxygen.

[Nbadan]

haven't you heard? oil and gasoline powered vehicles are the wave of the future.. :rolleyes

Yep, a lot of people resisted change from the horse and buggy too...

[remingtonbo2001]

Until actual collision experiments are performed on compressed air cars, my thought experiments are in/valid as anybody else's.

The difference is I'm willing to see a new idea attempted, while you right-winger shit on new ideas.

I'm glad your so quick to judge.

I'm actually glad they continue to come up with new innovative methods of trasportation. Unfortunately the use of Public Transportation in the U.S is underused and underfunded. This would be an ideal concept for frieght trasportation and mass-trasportation. However, as individual trasportation goes, I doubt it would be very successful.

I wasn't shitting on the idea. Just your attitude in general.
So,coming from a conservative/independent, I like this idea.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Until actual collision experiments are performed on compressed air cars, my thought experiments are in/valid as anybody else's.

The difference is I'm willing to see a new idea attempted, while you right-winger shit on new ideas.

So voicing concern is shitting on ideas? You're dumb. I'm all for alternative energy sources - the sooner the better - but I also don't want to have to worry about half of some guy's air powered car coming through my windshield when he gets in a wreck, and I also want someone to explain the gross energy cost associated with generating said compressed air.

If you call that shitting on new ideas, go fuck yourself.

[Nbadan]

...not compressed air..but...


cV4HdsDZX6c

[temujin]

By Eurocap crash test standards -which I trust- my little Toyota,

which incidentally looks a LOT like the car in the movie,

has higher standards than ANY US imports.

I don't even have to bring on my Volvo for that.

Just about any problem can be solved.
provided that patents aren't buried in a drawer on purpose.

[Wild Cobra]

...not compressed air..but...

What a waste of viewing time. I didn't get to see it crash...

Those things have so little power. Definitely a different motor, modified. They don't use 4 cylinder engine. I've seen a couple of those here in Portland. How they meet safety standards, I haven't a clue.

Any video of a US standard crash test?

[Wild Cobra]

Well, I did find a few crash tests. The car does have nice survivability, but I'll bet the deceleration G forces border on lethal for us mortals.

QbBo1UPbloI

nnVNUvixWUQ

Now here's a modified Smart using a Suzuki GSXR 1000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_GSX-R1000) engine at 180 HP racing a Ferrari F430:

dV1zQMcSsk0

The Smart beats the F430 by 0.11 seconds, at 13.29 seconds, but... this was likely a staged win for the smart. The tested ET for a F430 is 11.7 seconds.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

:depressed If Boutons only had a little common sense and a slightly higher IQ then maybe America could've of realized the dream of air compression vehicles stretching from highway to highway.

HOWEVER, I am curious to the results of a collision involving an air compressed vehicle with a gasoline powered vehicle.

Wouldn't that cause a massive explosion?

I think you're confusing compressed air with pure oxygen. Pure oxygen would suck, you couldn't pay me to drive in a car powered by that.

Compressed air is just the air you and I breathe compressed into a confined space.

[T Park]

So you retrogressives kill this car because of the "pressure" problem?

No we kill it because its the stupidest looking thing known to man.


So the US should never try to fix its own foreign oil dependence, nor reduce greenhouse gases, simply because China isn't?

Hell no.

But enviromentalist whackos like you should step aside and let nuculear power plants get built, and let us drill off the coast of our own country instead of mexico and venezuela and get our own oil.

Radical and crazy I know.

[Phenomanul]

One can compress air into fullerenes, without the pressure problem posing any more safety concern.... Air slowly diffuses out of the molecules (bucky-balls) at controlled rates dictated by the temperature.

The fact of the matter however is that the most effective way of making fullerenes is by using Benzene, a distillate product from petroleum. On top of that, the manufacture of fullerenes is a niche market used mostly by research (less than 100 kg of production per year worldwide), and there are many hurdles to be overcome before large scale production is even possible. Also, one would still need to use a compressor to store all that air inside the fullerenes themeselves. en fin.... Anyways that's where I would start.

[Wild Cobra]

One can compress air into fullerenes....
Really? I thought this could only be done with carbon and boron.

Source please?

[Phenomanul]

Really? I thought this could only be done with carbon and boron.

Source please?


My own experiments conducted as an apprentice to the work of Dr. J.B. Howard at MIT (back in the year 2001).

Along with Argon, the diatomic molecules (O2, N2, H2) are small enough to get absorbed into fullerenes at pressures greater than 5000 psi. Oviously the first two species on that list represent the bulk of air. The larger components in air CO2, H2O, CH4 and the pollutants NO2, O3, etc..., tend to be filtered out of the fullerenes when exposed to that compression process. But hey, that only makes those fullerenes that much more useful as a source of combustion air. Why? Because of Hess's law...

In retrospect of my previous post however, eliminating the pressure problem also eliminates the source of power for said vehicles - as in, it is the decompression of the pressure head which powers the vehicle. You remove that pressure, and you remove its functionality. I guess it couldn't be worse than strapping oneself on to a scuba tank.

[DOMINATOR]

wouldn't a compressed air engine work the same way as a Steam engine?
hook an air compressor up to a steam engine and it works.

[Phenomanul]

wouldn't a compressed air engine work the same way as a Steam engine?
hook an air compressor up to a steam engine and it works.


Yes in the sense that it involves the direct conversion of hydraulic energy to mechanical energy.

[Wild Cobra]

My own experiments conducted as an apprentice to the work of Dr. J.B. Howard at MIT (back in the year 2001).

Along with Argon, the diatomic molecules (O2, N2, H2) are small enough to get absorbed into fullerenes at pressures greater than 5000 psi. Oviously the first two species on that list represent the bulk of air. The larger components in air CO2, H2O, CH4 and the pollutants NO2, O3, etc..., tend to be filtered out of the fullerenes when exposed to that compression process. But hey, that only makes those fullerenes that much more useful as a source of combustion air. Why? Because of Hess's law...

In retrospect of my previous post however, eliminating the pressure problem also eliminates the source of power for said vehicles - as in, it is the decompression of the pressure head which powers the vehicle. You remove that pressure, and you remove its functionality. I guess it couldn't be worse than strapping oneself on to a scuba tank.
OK, I thought you meant they formed the Bucky Balls as well. You mean being trapped into the C60 molecules, or nanotubes.

Yes, that is also the solution that makes hydrogen storage safe for fuel cell vehicles, or even hydrogen powered internal combustion engines. Still, 5000 PSI is pretty high to trap oxygen. Once trapped, how low can you reduce the pressure and keep the oxygen trapped? Is it a safe pressure?

[Phenomanul]

OK, I thought you meant they formed the Bucky Balls as well. You mean being trapped into the C60 molecules, or nanotubes.

Yes, that is also the solution that makes hydrogen storage safe for fuel cell vehicles, or even hydrogen powered internal combustion engines. Still, 5000 PSI is pretty high to trap oxygen. Once trapped, how low can you reduce the pressure and keep the oxygen trapped? Is it a safe pressure?

It diffuses out of the fullerenes at rates dependent on the temperature. As for flow... you would have more than enough if you designed a container that operated at about 5-8 psig.

Again though, I initially jumped the gun on my prior post... While solving the safety problem posed by the pressure... I also negated the functionality of those vehicles. :shootme Those vehicles work off of the energy that is provided by the thermodynamic decompression of the gas - at that point the safety risks are inherent to the design of the engine and cannot be eliminated.

[johnsmith]

Blow me you fucking commie bitch. And I didn't realize my post here on Spurstalk had the power to stifle experimentation for alternative fuel sources half way around the world.


That was some funniy shit right there. Good to see Boutons getting shit on, on a regular basis.

[boutons_]

http://www.5min.com/Video/The-Air-Car-A-Newer-Greener-Engine-3546998

Looks pretty "dangerous" and "inherently risky" to me. All that air from a punctured tanking just waiting to hiss you to death.

[xrayzebra]

I posted this once before, but I wonder if this guy has maybe really
hit upon something. WC, you being an electronics guy, what do
you think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf4gOS8aoFk

Salt water as fuel, using radio waves.

[Wild Cobra]

I posted this once before, but I wonder if this guy has maybe really
hit upon something. WC, you being an electronics guy, what do
you think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf4gOS8aoFk

Salt water as fuel, using radio waves.
Well, this is more a chemistry issue than electronics, but I do know basic chemistry too. Consider the formula:

2 NaCl + 2 H2O → Cl2 + H2 + 2 NaOH

This is most likely what is occurring. It is extremely unlikely that the radio waves are only disrupting the hydrogen oxygen bonds. Notice how poisonous chlorine gas and the base sodium hydroxide is formed... Extra energy is also formed when the free hydrogen burns with oxygen in the air.

Rather than using an anode and cathode to have an electrolytic reaction, the radio waves create an electrical field inside the salt water like a microwave oven excites and heats food.

Now it is possible that he found a frequency that liberates the oxygen and hydrogen only. However, if that were the case, more energy is being used to create the radio waves than the heat produced in burning the liberated fuel. Otherwise we have perpetual motion. Not to have the poisonous chlorine released, or the sodium hydroxide, means it stays in the solution as salt. As the water burns, it gets more concentrated. The answer would be to make it a closed system. As the system operates, cool the steam back to water and put it back in the salt solution.

Anyone here believe in perpetual motion? Isn't it convenient that there is no mention of power used vs. power generated?

There are various sites if you search his name. I found nothing to indicate power efficiency, but did find someone else mention the poisonous chlorine released.

[Wild Cobra]

There might be a practical use for the sea water idea after all. I'm not going to do the equations, but it has to do with thermodynamics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamics).

When salt is added to water, it gets colder. What happens is the ionic changes in the solution take energy out of the water. Therefore there is more energy to start with. I don't know the extent, but it is feasible that slightly more energy can be extracted in heat than the power applied in the form of radio waves.

Still, if he hasn't stumbled on a frequency that keeps the salt ions intact. this is a poor solution unless we are going to sequester the chlorine gas and sodium hydroxide. I believe it is these additional reactions that make the process appear so viable. How much power is then lost in sequestering them?

[boutons_deux]

Compressed Air Energy Storage to Experience Dramatic Growth over the Next 10 Years

Traditional underground compressed air energy storage (CAES), which is one of only two proven long-duration bulk storage technologies, has been commercially available for more than 30 years. While no new CAES plants have been deployed since 1991, project activity and interest in the technology has grown in recent years, and higher-efficiency next-generation CAES technology is also nearing commercialization. According to a new report from Navigant Research (http://www.navigantresearch.com/), more than 11 gigawatts of CAES capacity will be installed worldwide from 2013 to 2023.

“Rapidly changing energy mixes and increasing renewable energy penetration will continue to introduce instability onto electricity grids worldwide in the coming years, while the volatility of load profiles will challenge grid operators to deliver reliable and secure electricity,” says Kerry-Ann Adamson, research director with Navigant Research. “These macro conditions will drive demand for CAES, helping to rejuvenate a sector that has been largely dormant for the last two decades.”

Growth in this sector will also be driven by advances in isothermal, or adiabatic, CAES, which can be sited anywhere and conveniently scaled using modular units. A handful of players are innovating in this space, and their technology will be commercially validated in the next 12 to 36 months, the study concludes.

Thereport, “Compressed Air Energy Storage” (http://www.navigantresearch.com/research/compressed-air-energy-storage), analyzes the global market opportunity for both traditional underground CAES and next-generation CAES technologies across five key application segments: wind energy integration, solar energy integration, grid asset optimization, transmission and distribution deferral, and ancillary services. The report provides a comprehensive assessment of the demand drivers, policy factors, and technology issues associated with the market for CAES. Key industry players are profiled, and worldwide capacity and revenue forecasts, segmented by application, technology, and region, extend through 2023. An Executive Summary of the report is available for free download on the Navigant Research website (http://www.navigantresearch.com/research/compressed-air-energy-storage).

http://www.navigantresearch.com/newsroom/compressed-air-energy-storage-to-experience-dramatic-growth-over-the-next-10-years

[CosmicCowboy]

Looks like a bunch of hot air.

[TeyshaBlue]

UPS is using a pretty souped up version of this.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004/10/eaton_and_peter.html

[Winehole23]

http://www.5min.com/Video/The-Air-Car-A-Newer-Greener-Engine-3546998

Looks pretty "dangerous" and "inherently risky" to me. All that air from a punctured tanking just waiting to hiss you to death.the artist formerly known as boutons_, at post #56.