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Yonivore
01-07-2008, 05:09 PM
...decades I thought it would but, someone has a fairly well-reasoned treatise on how history will probably view Operation Iraqi Freedom. BDS Sufferers will not like it...nor will Rumsfeld haters.

Rumsfeld's victory: a retrospective look at our de facto flytrap strategy in Iraq (http://errortheory.blogspot.com/2007/12/rumsfelds-victory-retrospective-look-at.html)


Why did the Iraqis turn against al Qaeda and Iran? Because al Qaeda and Iran were murdering them en masse. And why were al Qaeda and Iran murdering Iraqis en masse? Because Defense Secretary Rumfeld’s small-footprint (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/014/292pdstg.asp) force-protection strategy meant that they couldn’t attack American troops without getting immediately annihilated.

In order to get the “continuing violence” that their allies in the Western media could use to create American defeat on the home front, the Saudi and Iranian proxy warriors in Iraq had no choice but to wage war on the Iraqi people.

They understood the risks: that playing for a media victory would cost them the war on the ground. This is clear in the letter that al Qaeda #2, Ayman al-Zawahiri, wrote to al Qaeda in Iraq leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in the Fall of 2005:


The policy followed by the brothers in Baghdad is a media oriented policy without a clear comprehensive plan to capture an area or an enemy center. Other word, the significance of the strategy of their work is to show in the media that the American and the government do not control the situation and there is resistance against them. This policy dragged us to the type of operations that are attracted to the media, and we go to the streets from time to time for more possible noisy operations which follow the same direction.

This direction has large positive effects; however, being preoccupied with it alone delays more important operations such as taking control of some areas, … That is why every year is worse than the previous year as far as the Mujahidin’s control and influence over Baghdad. [From the CENTCOM translation (http://www.centcom.mil/sites/uscentcom1/Shared%20Documents/Extremist%20Page/full_translation_done_may_3.aspx) of Zawahiri's letter, May 2006, not identified as coming from Zawahiri, but containing much language in common with the captured Zawahiri letter (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/203gpuul.asp?pg=2) that was released to the public in October 2005]
Sunni Al Qaeda’s attacks on civilians were initially aimed at their religious rivals, the Shiites. Zawahiri recognized that this was turning the Iraqi population against al Qaeda, and urged Zarqawi to stop:


… why were there attacks on ordinary Shia? Won't this lead to reinforcing false ideas in their minds, even as it is incumbent on us to preach the call of Islam to them and explain and communicate to guide them to the truth? [Section 4E, Weekly standard translation (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/203gpuul.asp?pg=2).]
As someone watching from afar, Zawahiri found the grisly videotaped beheadings of hostages particularly grating:


Among the things which the feelings of the Muslim populace who love and support you will never find palatable - also- are the scenes of slaughtering the hostages. [Section 5]
All of this terrorizing of the Iraqi population should only be used as a last resort, Zawahir urged:


Therefore the mujahed movement must avoid any action that the masses do not understand or approve, if there is no contravention of Sharia in such avoidance, and as long as there are other options to resort to, meaning we must not throw the masses-scant in knowledge-into the sea before we teach them to swim… [section A4.]

There were no other options to resort to

The problem for al Qaeda was that they had no viable options. Allying with the Western media was it. Military victory on the ground was simply impossible:


… however far our capabilities reach, they will never be equal to one thousandth of the capabilities of the kingdom of Satan that is waging war on us. [Section 5]
On the other hand, the media strategy still offered a real chance for victory, given that the West’s anti-war media had succeeded in creating American defeat in the past:


Things may develop faster than we imagine. The aftermath of the collapse of American power in Vietnam-and how they ran and left their agents-is noteworthy. [Second section A.]
Al Qaeda’s only real choices were to either bypass Iraq, or to pursue a media strategy in alliance with the West’s anti-war, anti-Bush media. Here Zawahiri and Zarcawi were of one mind that that Iraq was the central battle for the heart of the Islamic world. Their religious convictions would not let them abandon Iraq:


I want to be the first to congratulate you for what God has blessed you with in terms of fighting battle in the heart of the Islamic world, which was formerly the field for major battles in Islam's history, and what is now the place for the greatest battle of Islam in this era, and what will happen, according to what appeared in the Hadiths of the Messenger of God about the epic battles between Islam and atheism. [First section A]
And so it was settled. Al Qaeda’s would attack Iraqis, creating media events that the Western media could use to try to lose the war at home. It was understood that this strategy would turn the Iraqis against al Qaeda, losing the war on the ground, but maybe not before the Democrats and their media allies managed to lose the war in America. It would be a race: could the Democrat/ al Qaeda alliance create defeat in America before the American military would win the war in Iraq?

Not just a democracy, but a republic

Rumsfeld had to have been perfectly aware that al Qaeda’s strategy was to sacrifice their position on the ground in an attempt to win the war in the media. Not only had al Qaeda spelled it out for him, but from the beginning he was always watching both sides of the Jihadist population equation, trying to squeeze their birthrate as well as their death rate. In October 2003 he was asking (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/executive/rumsfeld-memo.htm):


Are we capturing, killing or deterring and dissuading more terrorists every day than the madrassas and the radical clerics are recruiting, training and deploying against us?
When al Qaeda answered his force protection strategy by attacking the Iraqi population, Rumsfeld obviously knew that this would turn the Iraqi people against al Qaeda, turning that population equation drastically in our favor. There was no reason at that point to upset this advantageous applecart by changing strategy. Just let it work, and not just because al Qaeda’s attacks on the Iraqi population promised to win the war on the ground for us. Equally important, it also handed us the one victory that we never could have won by military means alone: the battle to create in Iraq, not just a democracy, but a republic in the American sense (a system of liberty under law).

The great danger going into Iraq was not that we would lose the war, which was never a realistic possibility (so long as the Democrats did not actually succeed in losing the war at home). The real danger was losing the peace: that the Iraqi people, devoid of any post-Saddam identity beyond religion, would elect a Khomeinist government, handing the country democratically to the Islamofascists. In Iran, it took fifteen years for the population to turn en masse against the Islamofascists. We couldn't wait 15 years in Iraq. The democracy would already be usurped.

If the theocrats took democratic control of the government even once, Iraq would be lucky to ever have democratic elections again. Elect people who believe that democracy is an “evil principle,” (Zarqawi’s description (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30447-2005Jan23.html)) and they are not likely to adhere to it. But Rumsfeld’s force-protection strategy, and al Qaeda’s response to it, matured the Iraqi contempt for theocracy in a short couple of very long years.

The vast majority of Iraqis now hate the religious vision of the Islamofascists. They hate the contempt for democracy and they hate the religious intolerance. Iraqis are rising now as a united people (http://ace.mu.nu/archives/248029.php), promising brotherhood (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8TOKSM80&show_article=1) with Iraqis of other faiths (http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/thanks-and-praise.htm). Just as Sunnis (http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/12/06/more-good-news-on-iraq-ignored/) are standing up to al Qaeda , so too are Shiites (http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/016080.php) standing up to Iran and the Sadr army.

There is still religious persecution, but it is coming from outsiders (http://www.zenit.org/article-21115?l=english). The one exception is in Basra, where the British left too soon (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=28289_Video-_Basra_Handed_over_to_Iraqis&only). If we abandon Iraq, the dirtbags are still strong enough to intimidate, but they have already lost the battle for hearts and minds. Their thuggery will just make them more hated, until the democratic government is strong enough to purge these interlopers from Iraqi society.

As President Bush believed would happen, the Iraqis are forging their own brand of Islam, an Islam of democracy and religious liberty. It will transform the Islamic world, and it was all enabled by the Democrats’ declared intent to turn Iraq into “another Vietnam.” How could Al Qaeda say 'no,' with the Democrats offering full assistance? In the words of New York Senator Chuck Schumer (http://www.nysun.com/article/49084):


There will be resolution after resolution, amendment after amendment . . . just like in the days of Vietnam. The pressure will mount, the president will find he has no strategy, he will have to change his strategy and the vast majority of our troops will be taken out of harm's way and come home.
As Blackfive (http://www.blackfive.net/main/2007/12/nancy-the-nutro.html) points out with some ire, Democrat leaders must think the American people are pretty stupid, as if we don't know that wars are either won or lost and that you can't just "bring the troops home" without losing.

Such tissues of denial have never fooled al Qaeda, which has always been perfectly clear on their de facto alliance with anti-war Westerners. Having the media on their side was obviously a big lure for al Qaeda, but what really made the alliance work , and what made it irresistable to al Qaeda, was the particular media strategy that the Democrats decided to employ.

The Democrats find a force multiplier for their media strategy: the Iraq war is a “civil war”

While Zawahiri was opining about how to fine tune al Qaeda’s media strategy on the ground, the Democrats were working on how best to lose the war at home. In October 2005, the same month as Zawahiri’s letter, Democratic Senator Dianne Feinstein articulated (http://feinstein.senate.gov/05speeches/war-oped.html) what would become the centerpiece of Democratic efforts to abandon Iraq. She characterized the Iraq war as a civil war, insinuating the supposed Vietnam war lesson that it is always a mistake to interfere in a civil war:


We are in the middle of two factions, Shiite and Sunni, attempting to settle their differences by mostly violent means. …

I believe this is a matter for Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds to address through political negotiation. This battle cannot be won militarily.

America needs to change course, reassess its mission in light of this escalating insurgency, place more responsibility on Iraq for a negotiated settlement, and begin a structured drawdown of American forces.
These talking points--“the battle cannot be won militarily” so “its time to start pulling out”—were at the center of the Democrats’ push the next month for a “timetable for withdrawal (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-06-14-iraq-withdrawal_x.htm).” This is where the Democrats began actually trying to pull the plug on our war effort and hand Iraq over to al Qaeda and Iran.

The “civil war” characterization of the war was a force multiplier for the al Qaeda/Democrat media war alliance. “Continuing violence” by itself did not by itself have a very powerful anti-war effect because it had tendencies not just to depress America’s fight spirit, but also to energize it. If the violence showed al Qaeda waging war on the Iraqi people, that would show the American people and the Iraqi people on the same side, which would make Americans want to protect Iraqis, while hinting at the reality on the ground: that more and more Iraqis were turning against al Qaeda.

For al Qaeda’s violence to really be effective in creating American disaffection for the war, the Democrats needed to frame the violence in a way that would not have these positive effects on America’s fighting spirit. This is what the “civil war” trope accomplished. No longer was the “continuing violence” seen as al Qaeda and Iran murdering Iraqis. Now it was spun as Iraqis murdering Iraqis, with no side that we could help without antagonizing the other.

Hence the “timetable for withdrawal.” If all we could do is make enemies, until we ourselves became nothing but a source of conflict, then we should get out. By taking on the mass murderers, we had supposedly made ourselves the problem. As Pennsylvania representative John Murtha (http://www.house.gov/murtha/news05-06/pr051117iraq.html) put it:


Our troops have become the primary target of the insurgency. They are united against U.S. forces and we have become a catalyst for violence.
The turning point for the war on the ground: al Qaeda and Iran play to the Democrats’ “civil war” trope

Where al Qaeda in late 2005 had been unsure whether killing Iraqi's was a good idea, the Democrat's "civil war" strategy tipped the balance. If the Democrats and their media allies were going to increase the effectiveness of mass murder by depicting it as the eruption of civil war, then by Allah, mass murder is what al Qaeda was going to deliver.

In February 2006, al Qaeda and Iran joined forces to trump up the biggest, fattest, phoniest civil war they could muster. Sunni al Qaeda blew up the Shiite Golden Dome mosque, and Iranian backed Shiite militias “retaliated” by launching dozens of attacks on Sunni civilians, with Iran actually funding both sides (http://www.nysun.com/article/46032) of this elaborate theater.

If these Saudi, Syrian and Iranian proxy warriors had been able to start a real civil war, it would indeed have made things difficult, but the Iraqis were having none of it. The Golden Dome attack was the birthday of the Anbar Revenge Brigades, announced to the world (http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2006/03/terrorism_and_counte.php) a scant two weeks later. Instead of retaliating against Iraqi Shiites, as al Qaeda and Iran had hoped, Iraqi Sunnis retaliated against al Qaeda.

Victory on the ground became at that point a certainty. The Iraqi Sunni hold-outs who had been fighting us began switching sides, and the harder al Qaeda fought it, the more thoroughly they would become hated in the new Iraq. But it wasn’t just the pace of coalition victory on the ground that was greatly accelerated by the “civil war” media strategy. Equally dramatic was the effect on the negative fighting spirit of the American people.

A March 2006 poll (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/06/AR2006030600369.html) by the Washington Post and ABC News found that a full 80% of Americans saw Iraq falling into civil war, and they were responding just as the defeatists wanted:


In the face of continuing violence, half -- 52 percent -- of those surveyed said the United States should begin withdrawing forces.
Al Qaeda and Iran poured it on through all of 2006, blowing up Iraqis like crazy, until they had the Iraqi people almost 100% against them. But the Western media did not have any trouble spinning this violence as civil war. Even when it was perfectly clear that they were being played, the media just turned a blind eye.

Mudville nails The New York Times

One particularly glaring sequence was documented (http://www.mudvillegazette.com/archives/004344.html) by milblogger Greyhawk at the Mudville Gazette. The New York Times’ front page headline for March 27, 2006 read: “30 Beheaded Bodies Found; Iraqi Death Squads Blamed”:


BAGHDAD, Iraq, March 26 (http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50B1FFA3F540C748EDDAA0894DE4044 82) — The bodies of 30 beheaded men were found on a main highway near Baquba this evening, providing more evidence that the death squads in Iraq are becoming out of control.
Two days later, Major General Thurman in Iraq exposed the story as a hoax. The Times buried its retracted headline in a paragraph seventeen, where it was joined with fresh claims (http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20C16FD3E540C7A8EDDAA0894DE4044 82) of sectarian massacre:


The police in western Baghdad discovered 14 bodies on Tuesday, all killed execution-style with gunshots to the head, apparently the latest victims of sectarian bloodletting. On Monday, Iraqi forces found 18 bodies near Baquba with similar wounds. Earlier reports of 30 beheaded bodies found in that area were wrong, the Interior Ministry official said.
“Apparently the victims of sectarian bloodletting,” but not actually the victims of sectarian bloodletting. On April 2nd Stars and Stripes reported that the 18 victims near Baquba had been murdered by al Qaeda terrorists dressed up to look like Iraqi military. Al Qaeda was trying to make it look like the country, and the Iraqi military, were descending into “sectarian bloodletting”

When the Times learned how it was being used by al Qaeda, it should have issued a front page apology and promised not to be duped again. Instead, the Times just kept on reporting each al Qaeda ploy with the same fresh gullibility. It was a game of footsie between them, striving on both sides for American defeat.

Another TET Offensive

By the end of 2006, 86% (http://pensitoreview.com/?p=3303) of Americans had swallowed the “civil war” hoax hook line and sinker. In the media sphere, the Democrat/ al Qaeda alliance had proved a total success. How total? It won them the 2006 mid-term elections, with control of both houses of Congress. That’s the brass ring. They gained the control over government necessary to effect the unilateral surrender they had been promising. The only thing left was to actually surrender.

Total destruction for al Qaeda on the ground was successfully turned into a media victory for al Qaeda. It was a carbon copy of the 1968 TET Offensive in Vietnam, as Arnaud de Borchgrave had been warning about (http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/4/18/192250.shtml) since 2004. The Communists in South Vietnam threw everything they had at the U.S. and South Vietnamese militaries, and been utterly destroyed, never again to threaten as a fighting force. But Walter Cronkite reported the ferocity of the attack as a measure of Communist strength and declared the war unwinnable. LBJ surrendered to Walter Cronkite, announcing a couple of weeks later that he would not seek re-election, and the Democrats succeeded in losing the war at home, even after it was already won on the ground. (Cronkite is even bidding to play the same role (http://firedoglake.com/2007/12/05/walter-cronkite-our-troops-must-leave-iraq/) again today.)

But surrender efforts take time, just as victory on the ground does. It turned out that, while the Democratic Party leadership has been united on a policy of surrender to al Qaeda, not all Democrats are on board. A handful of holdouts have allowed time for al Qaeda’s defeat on the ground to become a fait accompli, which is making more Democrats reluctant to surrender to al Qaeda. Thus the time of greatest danger should be past, even though the Democrat surrender efforts continue unabated. There have been plenty of attempts (forty so far this year), and Harry Reid is still spewing (http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/12/03/the-surge-isnt-working-says-ha/) the “un-winnable civil war” mantra:


“The surge hasn’t accomplished its goals,” Reid said. “… We’re involved, still, in an intractable civil war.”
(Al Qaeda, in the meantime, informs us (http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2007/12/al_qaeda_is_finished_in_iraq_f.html) that all but 200 of their fighters in Iraq are dead.)

The media has also continued to pretend that the al Qaeda and Iranian proxy war is a civil war. In July of this year, the captured leader of al Qaeda in Iraq admitted that the organization went to great lengths to pretend that it was an Iraqi organization, even pretending to follow a fictitious figurehead with an Iraqi name:


In his words, the Islamic State of Iraq is a front organization that masks the foreign influence and leadership within al Qaeda in Iraq in an attempt to put an Iraqi face on the leadership of al Qaeda in Iraq.
Reuters headline? “Senior Qaeda figure in Iraq a myth: U.S. military.” Or in the words of Don Surber (http://blogs.dailymail.com/donsurber/2007/07/19/getting-it-bass-ack-ward/): Bass-ack-wards. Reuters tried to make it look to the casual reader that al Qaeda was the myth, when the actual myth was that the violence in Iraq is home grown.

This has been par for the course for four years. The media knows as well as al Qaeda that this is a race, and it looks now that the race has been won by our military, thanks to the switch to a more aggressive finishing strategy orchestrated by General Petraeus. What has allowed the “surge” strategy to succeed so spectacularly is the Iraqi people’s almost unanimous hatred for al Qaeda, created by the Democrat/ al Qaeda media strategy of blowing up Iraqis. This turn against al Qaeda was fully formed during Rumsfeld’s tenure. To make use of that hatred, all Petraeus had to do was switch from force protection to population protection. Protected from retaliation, Iraqis expressed their hatred of al Qaeda by pointing to the bad guys.

Should we have used the Petraeus strategy from the outset?

That’s a little like seeing Ali come off the ropes in the 8th round to kayo Foreman and thinking: “hey, he should have done that in round one.” Petraeus’ “clear, hold and build” strategy might have worked earlier, but it also might have altered al Qaeda’s strategy. If our troops had been more exposed, al Qaeda might have concentrated more on military targets and less on the Iraqi population, which was the key decision that determined everything. Induce al Qaeda to make a different decision, and who knows how things might have turned out?

In the counterinsurgency manual (http://www.amazon.com/Marine-Corps-Counterinsurgency-Field-Manual/dp/0226841510/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196699604&sr=8-1) that he co-authored, Petraeus describes the logic of the population protection strategy:

Sometimes, the More You Protect Your Force, the Less Secure You May Be

1-149. Ultimate success in COIN is gained by protecting the populace, not the COIN force. If military forces remain in their compounds, they lose touch with the people, appear to be running scared, and cede the initiative to the insurgents. Aggressive saturation patrolling, ambushes, and listening post operations must be conducted, risk shared with the populace, and contact maintained. . . . These practices ensure access to the intelligence needed to drive operations. Following them reinforces the connections with the populace that help establish real legitimacy.
From “Counterinsurgency/FM 3-24/MCWP 3-33.5”
It was perfectly clear what was happening[/U]

Only in hindsight do we know that the force protection strategy would elicit such a reckless gamble from al Qaeda: getting them the bet their reputation throughout the entire Muslim world on the ability of their Democrat allies to lose the war at home. What does not require hindsight—what was perfectly obvious at the time—was that al Qaeda’s decision to attack the Iraqi population was going to lose them the war on the ground.

I certainly saw it, writing a trio of blog posts in late 2005 about the emergence of the civil war trope (Evil (http://errortheory.blogspot.com/2005/10/evil-bith-watch.html) bit©h (http://errortheory.blogspot.com/2005/10/evil-bith-ii.html) watch (http://errortheory.blogspot.com/2005/11/rally-veto-say-no-to-gop-surrender-on.html)), and a couple more posts on how Democrat efforts to lose the war at home were luring al Qaeda into attacking the Iraqi population (Baiting the flytrap with the sickly sweet stink of defeatism (http://errortheory.blogspot.com/2005/09/msnbc-baiting-flytrap-with-sickly.html), and Dems duped into duping al Qaeda (http://errortheory.blogspot.com/2005/12/dems-duped-into-duping-al-qaeda.html).)

A sample (http://errortheory.blogspot.com/2005/09/msnbc-baiting-flytrap-with-sickly.html):


By attacking the Iraqi people they [the terrorists] are winning for the United States the one battle we could not otherwise win by force of arms: the battle for the direction that the Iraqi and Afghan democracies will take. We cannot force the electorates of these countries to favor religious liberty, yet the terrorists are doing more than we could ever hope to give intolerance a very very bad name. This is how Al Qaeda chooses to spend its limited pool of Jihadists? They are dying by the tens and hundreds to serve OUR purposes in Iraq and Afghanistan?

[Judy Woodruff's] optimism offers an explanation. She is a little frustrated because Katrina is hampering the ability of her and her colleagues to attack the war effort, but it doesn't keep down her pluck:

[quote=Judy Woodruff]...we were just sitting here saying, if it hadn't been for Katrina, the numbers on--the deaths in Iraq would have been all in the headlines the last week.
This when al Qaeda by its own admission was being systematically destroyed by the U.S. military. Go Judy!

Bin Laden's September 7th 2007 video from the cave (http://www.reuters.com/news/video/videoStory?videoId=65923) expressed his bitter disappointment in the failure of the Democrats to follow through on defeat:


People of America: ... after several years of the tragedies of this war, the vast majority of you want it stopped. Thus, you elected the Democratic Party for this purpose but the Democrats haven't made a move worth mentioning.
Like a good ally, he makes excuses for the Democrats' failure, straight from the American left's own talking points:


... since the democratic system permits major corporations to back candidates, be they presidential or congressional, there shouldn't be any cause for astonishment, and there isn't any, in the Democrats' failure to stop the war.
The consequences of this failed Democrat/ al-Qaeda alliance is a much more positive outcome than we could otherwise have hoped for. If al Qaeda had just recognized our military superiority and chosen not to commit its resources in Iraq, they a) would still be alive to fight elsewhere, and b) would still be able to proclaim themselves as defenders of Islam. Instead they gambled everything on their media strategy, committing atrocities that the Democrats could use to win surrender for them. Now their name is dirt, and their bodies are dirt.

Equal rights in the Islamic world?

The result is the prospect of a religiously tolerant Iraq, truly something new under the sun in the Islamic world. Iraq now has a chance to become a modern republic, protecting equal liberty under law. Its constitution asserts both human rights and Islamic identity. The great question was which would give when there was a conflict between traditional Islamic suppression of religious minorities and equal rights.

Thanks to the al Qaeda/Democrat media strategy, the Iraqi people now hate the religious intolerance of al Qaeda and Iran with a white hot passion, giving them the best possible chance to become the first modern Republic in the Islamic world (a republic that chooses to reject theocracy, unlike Turkey, which has its theocratic tendencies denied by un-democratic means). Figure ten years before they start to completely outstrip the rest of the Islamic world economically, making them a model for other Muslim countries to follow.

Credit Donald Rumsfelds’ wartime leadership, the Democrat/ al Qaeda alliance that fell into his lap, President Bush’s backbone, and most of all, the blood sweat and tears of our military families who actually pulled it all off.
I think he sums up the past 3 and a half (almost 4) years rather nicely.

boutons_
01-07-2008, 07:20 PM
Pure kool-aid, bullshit flavor, downed with gusto.

the revisionist lying has started, to match the pre-invasion lying.

Ignignokt
01-07-2008, 08:43 PM
Pure kool-aid, bullshit flavor, downed with gusto.

the revisionist lying has started, to match the pre-invasion lying.

Just like the Isrealis.

Funny how fuckouns is using the same propaganda attack on the united states millitary actions as the palestinians use against the israelis.


Funny that bitch wont respond to this like he that past three times i brought this up.

PixelPusher
01-08-2008, 12:10 AM
Maybe if defeating AQI were the only objective required to "win", your blog rip might have a point.


The result is the prospect of a religiously tolerant Iraq, truly something new under the sun in the Islamic world.
There is nothing new under the sun, not even religious tolerance in the Muslim world, but I wouldn't expect a Yoni blogger to bother with historical research. Of course it's not really about religion, it's about tribalism, something to keep in mind while you go on praising a Shia dominated "Republic" within the artificially created borders of a multi-ethnic nation called Iraq.

But what the hell, this is only the 49,725th time you guys have counted your chickens before they were hatched.

ChumpDumper
01-08-2008, 03:12 AM
I didn't read it but I did a CTRL+F for WMD.

I didn't find them in this article either.

Ignignokt
01-08-2008, 03:29 AM
I didn't read it but I did a CTRL+F for WMD.

I didn't find them in this article either.

ChumpDumper
01-08-2008, 03:45 AM
It's not like I was hiding that fact, pinky.

If it doesn't even refer to that issue once, it is not a valid appraisal of the invasion and extended occupation of Iraq.

Ignignokt
01-08-2008, 03:52 AM
It's not like I was hiding that fact, pinky.

If it doesn't even refer to that issue once, it is not a valid appraisal of the invasion and extended occupation of Iraq.


How would you know? You didn't read what the article was about.

ChumpDumper
01-08-2008, 03:55 AM
Why did we invade Iraq, pinky?

George Gervin's Afro
01-08-2008, 09:23 AM
Why did we invade Iraq, pinky?


because they posed an immenent threat.. oh wait Bush never direclty said " Iraq was an imminent threat'

they had stockpiles of wmds... oh wait we relied on intel left over fromthe 90's...

we wanted to spread democracy in the middle east... oh dear we are going to keep our fingers crossed that the Islamic republic of Iraq will be our friends once we leave..

Iraq had a connection to Al- Qaida....oh wait an al-qaida guy was in northern iraq at some point..


some where deep in the Iraq resolution we gave ourselves the green light to do whatever the hell we wanted..we did and look at what it has brought us...

101A
01-08-2008, 09:45 AM
Damn.

Change the subject much?

The article is NOT about why we invaded Iraq; it's how we, ultimately, ARE WINNING Iraq. If the story plays out, and has played out, as this blogger suggests; the left and M$M in this country look FAR worse than the WH.

Also, if that is the net result; Iraq was not, is not, and will never be perceived historically, as a mistake. Of course, since the Dems CANNOT have this; getting us out of Iraq, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory is PRIORITY 1! Nothing could be worse for this country, after all, than actually winning in Iraq!

Ignignokt
01-08-2008, 10:03 AM
Why did we invade Iraq, pinky?

Go read the Iraq resolution chinky.

Ignignokt
01-08-2008, 10:06 AM
because they posed an immenent threat.. oh wait Bush never direclty said " Iraq was an imminent threat'

they had stockpiles of wmds... oh wait we relied on intel left over fromthe 90's...

we wanted to spread democracy in the middle east... oh dear we are going to keep our fingers crossed that the Islamic republic of Iraq will be our friends once we leave..

Iraq had a connection to Al- Qaida....oh wait an al-qaida guy was in northern iraq at some point..


some where deep in the Iraq resolution we gave ourselves the green light to do whatever the hell we wanted..we did and look at what it has brought us...

DarkReign
01-08-2008, 10:17 AM
^:lmao

True or not, that was funny.

George Gervin's Afro
01-08-2008, 10:23 AM
Damn.

Change the subject much?

The article is NOT about why we invaded Iraq; it's how we, ultimately, ARE WINNING Iraq. If the story plays out, and has played out, as this blogger suggests; the left and M$M in this country look FAR worse than the WH.

Also, if that is the net result; Iraq was not, is not, and will never be perceived historically, as a mistake. Of course, since the Dems CANNOT have this; getting us out of Iraq, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory is PRIORITY 1! Nothing could be worse for this country, after all, than actually winning in Iraq!

winning in iraq? we've already won the war. how can we lose something we've already won?



If the story plays out, and has played out, as this blogger suggests; the left and M$M in this country look FAR worse than the WH.

What you don't seem to grasp is that this country never saw the connection of Iraq with the war on terror. Once that was gone this fiasco will always be remembered as an unecessary war. This notion that once things get better the WHwill look great and the media and the dems will look bad is preposterous! People just want out.. To assume that the public will have a 'coming to jesus' moment when the war is over is funny and wishful thinking..

You lost the public support when the majority didn't buy the selling of this being a part of the war on terror..

George Gervin's Afro
01-08-2008, 10:24 AM
wow that was creative. i wish i could go through people's posts and bold some letters.. ingenious

DarkReign
01-08-2008, 10:38 AM
wow that was creative. i wish i could go through people's posts and bold some letters.. ingenious

I laughed because it was funny. I never even read your post. Dont take the forum too seriously. It doesnt affect much.

George Gervin's Afro
01-08-2008, 10:41 AM
I laughed because it was funny. I never even read your post. Dont take the forum too seriously. It doesnt affect much.


I wasn't referring to you. I was just commenting on how cool it is to bold inidiscriminate letters to spell stuff..

ElNono
01-08-2008, 10:42 AM
...decades I thought it would but, someone has a fairly well-reasoned treatise on how history will probably view Operation Iraqi Freedom.

You mean how you would like history to view it.
Look at the source. This is some dude's blog opinion, not the History Channel site. My recommendation to you would be to print that out, and save it in some folder, so when the real, complete historic revision of this event does come out, and you don't like it one bit, you can always go back and re-read this 'document' to see how historians are a bunch of 'liberals' and they just don't get it.

boutons_
01-08-2008, 10:44 AM
The right is desperate to cover up the failed Iraq fiasco, to justify their suckered support of the dubya/dickhead lies that they've turned up their slime and lying machine.

Based on reduced violence due primarily to the effective balkanization of Iraq by the end of 2007, plus Petraeus bribes, rather than the surge, they claim "victory". What a fucking, desperately dishonest stretch.

ChumpDumper
01-08-2008, 11:14 AM
Go read the Iraq resolution chinky.Why can't you answer that yourself?

ChumpDumper
01-08-2008, 11:16 AM
Damn.

Change the subject much?Yes, that whole article was an attempt to change the subject.

101A
01-08-2008, 11:30 AM
winning in iraq? we've already won the war. how can we lose something we've already won?




What you don't seem to grasp is that this country never saw the connection of Iraq with the war on terror. Once that was gone this fiasco will always be remembered as an unecessary war. This notion that once things get better the WHwill look great and the media and the dems will look bad is preposterous! People just want out.. To assume that the public will have a 'coming to jesus' moment when the war is over is funny and wishful thinking..

You lost the public support when the majority didn't buy the selling of this being a part of the war on terror..Again, IF the blogger is correct, and Iraq has turned out to be a critical defeat of Al Queda - how is that not part of the war on terror?

OR; if it turns out, eventually, that because of the invasion and overthrow, a reasonably stable, non-religious, relatively tolerant, democratic government is established in the ME - does that not help our cause?

You are stating, that NO MATTER what happens, or comes from Iraq; it was the wrong thing to do, and shouldn't have been done?

clambake
01-08-2008, 11:34 AM
this blog is kinda like the same praise an Aryan would give to the Nazi's.

George Gervin's Afro
01-08-2008, 11:35 AM
Again, IF the blogger is correct, and Iraq has turned out to be a critical defeat of Al Queda - how is that not part of the war on terror?

OR; if it turns out, eventually, that because of the invasion and overthrow, a reasonably stable, non-religious, relatively tolerant, democratic government is established in the ME - does that not help our cause?

You are stating, that NO MATTER what happens, or comes from Iraq; it was the wrong thing to do, and shouldn't have been done?



That's alot of IFs... I hope my 5 yr old son isn't fighting in the middle East somewhere because of Bush's nation building experiment gone awry.. We stirred up the hornets nest and destabliized a very unstable part of the world....I cannot for the life of me find one poistive thing about that..

You mention that this would be worth it if we have an ally on the war on terror? How much in US lives is that worth? IF this works out how many?

ElNono
01-08-2008, 11:58 AM
... if it turns out, eventually, that because of the invasion and overthrow, a reasonably stable, non-religious, relatively tolerant, democratic government is established in the ME - does that not help our cause?

Wow, you really used 'non-religious', 'tolerant' and 'Middle East' in the same sentence... I don't know what you're smoking, but it must be some truly powerful shit...

boutons_
01-08-2008, 02:14 PM
"does that not help our cause"

The USA's cause today would be much better if Iraq were the same as Feb 2003.

Democracy, human rights, free speech, religious/political freedom/tolerance/reconciliation are totally absent in Iraq and aren't on the horizon.

The Iraqi people, esp womon and children, are totally worse off today than they were Feb 2003.

As St Ronnie said "We're from the US government and we're here to help you".

Iraq is a definite lose-lose game, which is why all the dubya suckers can claim today is "if... if... if... if... if... if..." while they don't have to pay to play that game.

101A
01-08-2008, 02:16 PM
Wow, you really used 'non-religious', 'tolerant' and 'Middle East' in the same sentence... I don't know what you're smoking, but it must be some truly powerful shit...

You are a bigot.

Oh, Gee!!
01-08-2008, 02:20 PM
You mean it didn't take two decades for some hack to sugar coat an utter failure in foreign policy? Wow.

101A
01-08-2008, 02:21 PM
"does that not help our cause"

The USA's cause today would be much better if Iraq were the same as Feb 2003. You are sure of this because....


Democracy, human rights, free speech, religious/political freedom/tolerance/reconciliation are totally absent in Iraq and aren't on the horizon. ...and they were in abundance in 02/03?


The Iraqi people, esp womon and children, are totally worse off today than they were Feb 2003.How nice of you to say so. Guess you know what's best for them, huh? THEIR polls say they don't want to go back.


As St Ronnie said "We're from the US government and we're here to help you".Why do you hate the United States?


Iraq is a definite lose-lose game, which is why all the dubya suckers can claim today is "if... if... if... if... if... if..." while they don't have to pay to play that game.According to the piece this thread is dedicated to; the U.S. military has won, Al Qaeda lost.

Yonivore
01-08-2008, 03:02 PM
winning in iraq? we've already won the war. how can we lose something we've already won?
We managed to do it in Vietnam. Courtesy of the Democrats...


What you don't seem to grasp is that this country never saw the connection of Iraq with the war on terror. Once that was gone this fiasco will always be remembered as an unecessary war. This notion that once things get better the WHwill look great and the media and the dems will look bad is preposterous! People just want out.. To assume that the public will have a 'coming to jesus' moment when the war is over is funny and wishful thinking..
I predicted two decades...I don't think it'll be that long now. Especially with this kind of analysis becoming available.


You lost the public support when the majority didn't buy the selling of this being a part of the war on terror..
The public is fickle...they'll swing whichever way the wind blows hardest.

George Gervin's Afro
01-08-2008, 03:07 PM
We managed to do it in Vietnam. Courtesy of the Democrats...


I predicted two decades...I don't think it'll be that long now. Especially with this kind of analysis becoming available.


The public is fickle...they'll swing whichever way the wind blows hardest.


Always the optimist yoni..

Yonivore
01-08-2008, 03:09 PM
That's alot of IFs...
Actually, it's only two.

Care to address the fact that al Qaeda views Iraq as a major battlefield in their war with us and that makes it a part of the war on terror?


I hope my 5 yr old son isn't fighting in the middle East somewhere because of Bush's nation building experiment gone awry.. We stirred up the hornets nest and destabliized a very unstable part of the world....I cannot for the life of me find one poistive thing about that..
Is that kind of like breaking a broken object? I think we committed an act that was inevitable, on our own terms and in our own manner; and, it worked.


You mention that this would be worth it if we have an ally on the war on terror? How much in US lives is that worth? IF this works out how many?
Defeating the Islamic Extremists before they have an opportunity to visit destruction on our shores again is worth whatever price we pay.


Wake up America
"We shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty."
And he was a Democrat.

Yonivore
01-08-2008, 03:10 PM
Always the optimist yoni..
Beats claiming we've lost a war we didn't lose...Murth..Rei..Pelo...Schu..., I mean, George.

George Gervin's Afro
01-08-2008, 03:10 PM
Actually, it's only two.

Care to address the fact that al Qaeda views Iraq as a major battlefield in their war with us and that makes it a part of the war on terror?


Is that kind of like breaking a broken object? I think we committed an act that was inevitable, on our own terms and in our own manner; and, it worked.


Defeating the Islamic Extremists before they have an opportunity to visit destruction on our shores again is worth whatever price we pay.


And he was a Democrat.


When the Russians were trying to ship missiles into Cuba Kennedy didn't rush off and invade Poland...

George Gervin's Afro
01-08-2008, 03:12 PM
Beats claiming we've lost a war we didn't lose...Murth..Rei..Pelo...Schu..., I mean, George.


I've already agreed we won the war in Iraq.. it's the post war situation that is fubar...

Yonivore
01-08-2008, 03:12 PM
When the Russians were trying to ship missiles into Cuba Kennedy didn't rush off and invade Poland...
Your point?

Al Qaeda was streaming into Iraq after the invasion of Afghanistan in 2001. By 2003, they had a large presence and were allying themselves with Iran, Syria, and former Ba'athist regime elements.

They were there first. We only went where their choice took us.

Yonivore
01-08-2008, 03:13 PM
I've already agreed we won the war in Iraq.. it's the post war situation that is fubar...
Fubar? Talked to an Iraqi lately?

boutons_
01-08-2008, 03:15 PM
"they were in abundance in 02/03"

no, but 4000 dead US military, several 100K dead Iraqis, and US $2T wasted to arrive at the same point today? big fucking deal

"Why do you hate the United States"

Why do you put words in my mouth when I quote St Ronnie, who was a mouthpiece for movement conservatism's program to destroy the American govt?

AQI didn't even exist until the dubya's bogus invasion created it, a straw man. So our kick-ass military enabled, then defeated a straw man, big fucking deal.

And AQI was killing Iraqis and the Iraqis wanted them dead or out of Iraq like any country's people would want any invaders (eg, US military in Iraq) out of their country.

ChumpDumper
01-08-2008, 03:31 PM
(Al Qaeda, in the meantime, informs us that all but 200 of their fighters in Iraq are dead.)200?

Why are we still there then?

Surely the Iraqi security forces can take care of 200 terraists. I mean, they are the only threat to Iraqi stability that currently exists or ever existed and the only one worth blogging about.

Ignignokt
01-08-2008, 06:45 PM
200?

Why are we still there then?

Surely the Iraqi security forces can take care of 200 terraists. I mean, they are the only threat to Iraqi stability that currently exists or ever existed and the only one worth blogging about.


That's if there's only 200. And even if there were that much, that doesn't mean there's 200 recognizable terrorist all in one location in iraq as if they were branch davidian... ahh i give up. You're an idiot.

ElNono
01-08-2008, 06:46 PM
Wow, you really used 'non-religious', 'tolerant' and 'Middle East' in the same sentence... I don't know what you're smoking, but it must be some truly powerful shit...

You are a bigot.

And you're are plainly in denial... For as long as I've lived (35 years and counting), these guys (pakistanis, egiptians, iraquis, iranians, palestinians, etc) have been walking into a crowd and blowing themselves to pieces along with as many of their 'infidels' they can take with them. It is always motivated by religion, and fueled by intolerance. This is not something new. You could read a story about an atrocity like that happening pretty much every month for the past 30+ years.
Do you really think that you're just going to walk in there and change decades of their culture and religion in one big swoop?
You must truly be delusional.

Ignignokt
01-08-2008, 06:48 PM
And you're are plainly in denial... For as long as I've lived (35 years and counting), these guys (pakistanis, egiptians, iraquis, iranians, palestinians, etc) have been walking into a crowd and blowing themselves to pieces along with as many of their 'infidels' they can take with them. It is always motivated by religion, and fueled by intolerance. This is not something new. You could read a story about an atrocity like that happening pretty much every month for the past 30+ years.
Do you really think that you're just going to walk in there and change decades of their culture and religion in one big swoop?
You must truly be delusional.


Thats like saying Blacks have been commiting theft, inciting riots and having unborn kids all in one broadstroke, and then claiming that nothing can be done about their problems.

i guess your are messing in bigot territory.

ChumpDumper
01-08-2008, 07:06 PM
That's if there's only 200.Are you calling the blogger a liar?

ElNono
01-08-2008, 07:19 PM
Thats like saying Blacks have been commiting theft, inciting riots and having unborn kids all in one broadstroke, and then claiming that nothing can be done about their problems.

i guess your are messing in bigot territory.

Your analogy does not apply, because all the acts you mention are not exclusive to Black people. But keep participating...

remingtonbo2001
01-08-2008, 08:03 PM
Your analogy does not apply, because all the acts you mention are not exclusive to Black people. But keep participating...

That's precisely the point which was being made.

ElNono
01-08-2008, 08:29 PM
That's precisely the point which was being made.

Please go ahead and tell me where else in the world outside the Middle East people blow themselves up in a crowd for religious reasons at least once a month for the past 30+ years.

Wild Cobra
01-08-2008, 11:13 PM
I finally took the time to read the article. Everything was spot-on with what I have learned since the start. It describes several thinks I have said from time to time.

Great article.

I agree. Correct history is being written sooner than I expected too.

ChumpDumper
01-09-2008, 02:37 AM
You said we invaded Iraq in 2003 for the sole purpose of luring in terraists from other countries and Al Qaeda in Iraq (not the actual Al Qaeda) is the only cause of violence in Iraq since the invasion and now there are only 200 of them so now we can break out the Mission Accomplished banner again and leave immediately?

Ignignokt
01-09-2008, 08:21 AM
You said we invaded Iraq in 2003 for the sole purpose of luring in terraists from other countries and Al Qaeda in Iraq (not the actual Al Qaeda) is the only cause of violence in Iraq since the invasion and now there are only 200 of them so now we can break out the Mission Accomplished banner again and leave immediately?


THat's still not counting other terror groups who have enlisted volunteers for suicide missions from other countries, and the iranians. some couple hundred trained alqueda fighters is different from alqueda members in total, because anyone can claim to stand for alqueda and kill innocents. so no, we do not fold now, and if we leave the number of alqueda could double to quadruple. The article didn't say that there was only alqueda violence in iraq, there have been many baath insurrections, as well as other parties. but there was never a full fledged civil war.


IF YOUR DUMBASS HAD READ THE ARTICLE YOU WOULDN"T HAVE DRAWN UP THOSE DUMB CONCLUSIONS.

George Gervin's Afro
01-09-2008, 08:50 AM
THat's still not counting other terror groups who have enlisted volunteers for suicide missions from other countries, and the iranians. some couple hundred trained alqueda fighters is different from alqueda members in total, because anyone can claim to stand for alqueda and kill innocents. so no, we do not fold now, and if we leave the number of alqueda could double to quadruple. The article didn't say that there was only alqueda violence in iraq, there have been many baath insurrections, as well as other parties. but there was never a full fledged civil war.


IF YOUR DUMBASS HAD READ THE ARTICLE YOU WOULDN"T HAVE DRAWN UP THOSE DUMB CONCLUSIONS.


excuse me dumbass but one article doesn't change the fact that you and the other sheep have provided ample reasons why iraq is a part of the war on terror..now when people remind you about it you don't want to hear it... we get the point that you will whore this war until your death..WE GOT IT.. you are still to this day trying to justify an unecessary war.. So now it's hard to keep track of why are in Iraq still..is it al-qaida? other terror groups? how did those groups get there? ...

Ignignokt
01-09-2008, 09:21 AM
excuse me dumbass but one article doesn't change the fact that you and the other sheep have provided ample reasons why iraq is a part of the war on terror..now when people remind you about it you don't want to hear it... we get the point that you will whore this war until your death..WE GOT IT.. you are still to this day trying to justify an unecessary war.. So now it's hard to keep track of why are in Iraq still..is it al-qaida? other terror groups? how did those groups get there? ...

George Gervin's Afro
01-09-2008, 09:32 AM
:sleep

Ignignokt
01-09-2008, 09:42 AM
reading is :sleep

Yonivore
01-09-2008, 10:42 AM
Why read when you can ridicule?

George Gervin's Afro
01-09-2008, 10:46 AM
Why read when you can ridicule?


why post an original thought when you can plagerize a blog..

Yonivore
01-09-2008, 10:47 AM
excuse me dumbass but one article doesn't change the fact that you and the other sheep have provided ample reasons why iraq is a part of the war on terror..now when people remind you about it you don't want to hear it... we get the point that you will whore this war until your death..WE GOT IT.. you are still to this day trying to justify an unecessary war.. So now it's hard to keep track of why are in Iraq still..is it al-qaida? other terror groups? how did those groups get there? ...
There are no fewer than 40 links, in that article, that point to various sources to support every point he make in his piece.

You would know that if you had read it.

Get a tutor.

Yonivore
01-09-2008, 10:48 AM
why post an original thought when you can plagerize a blog..
Exactly. But, I only plagiarize those with whom I agree so, at least, I've read that which I post.

George Gervin's Afro
01-09-2008, 10:50 AM
There are no fewer than 40 links, in that article, that point to various sources to support every point he make in his piece.

You would know that if you had read it.

Get a tutor.


Sorry but I don't count right wing blogs as objective sources..

Yonivore
01-09-2008, 10:53 AM
Sorry but I don't count right wing blogs as objective sources..
Nor do I but, when they link to actual data, transcripts, or objective reports from which they draw their conclusions,...ah nevermind, you've got to be able to read to even follow the logic.

George Gervin's Afro
01-09-2008, 10:57 AM
Nor do I but, when they link to actual data, transcripts, or objective reports from which they draw their conclusions,...ah nevermind, you've got to be able to read to even follow the logic.


Ok yoni..


There is still religious persecution, but it is coming from outsiders. The one exception is in Basra, where the British left too soon. If we abandon Iraq, the dirtbags are still strong enough to intimidate, but they have already lost the battle for hearts and minds. Their thuggery will just make them more hated, until the democratic government is strong enough to purge these interlopers from Iraqi society.

The source used to justify this position is an opinion of one person.. yet somehow this piece is based on obejective reports and transcripts..etc..

That's just one that I picked out..should I go on and find more opinion pieces being passed on as objective data?

Yonivore
01-09-2008, 11:02 AM
Ok yoni..

The source used to justify this position is an opinion of one person.. yet somehow this piece is based on obejective reports and transcripts..etc..

That's just one that I picked out..should I go on and find more opinion pieces being passed on as objective data?
Absolutely...go for it.

But, for the record, what kind of data would it take to support such an opinion...to your satisfaction?

Yonivore
01-09-2008, 11:15 AM
Ok yoni..

The source used to justify this position is an opinion of one person.. yet somehow this piece is based on obejective reports and transcripts..etc..
And that one person's opinion was based on a video -- which he posted, from yet another source (A british source), that seemed to support that leaving Basra as soon as they did wasn't such a good idea.


That's just one that I picked out..should I go on and find more opinion pieces being passed on as objective data?
Keep it going, this is how reasonable, rational discourse occurs.

After viewing the video, it doesn't seem the opinion, that Britain left Basra prematurely, was that far off the mark

boutons_
01-09-2008, 11:35 AM
Rawls bullshit is an opinion piece rotten with unproven assertions.

I figure movement conservatives/neo-cunts either paid him to write this and/or fed him all the bullshit.

Ignignokt
01-09-2008, 11:39 AM
Rawls bullshit is an opinion piece rotten with unproven assertions.

I figure movement conservatives/neo-cunts either paid him to write this and/or fed him all the bullshit.


Well, I would sit here and argue with you, but i'm off to pickup by NeoCunt paycheck. Which reminds me, i need to deposit all of it but 20 dollars. Gotz to go buy me a bunch of PaleoCon scratch tickets, and pickup a bottle of Evangelical Bigot bug spray at the Big Lotz in my Tahoe.

DarkReign
01-09-2008, 12:36 PM
Please go ahead and tell me where else in the world outside the Middle East people blow themselves up in a crowd for religious reasons at least once a month for the past 30+ years.

Takers? Anyone?

Didint think so. Truth hurts.

ChumpDumper
01-09-2008, 01:06 PM
THat's still not counting other terror groups who have enlisted volunteers for suicide missions from other countries, and the iranians. some couple hundred trained alqueda fighters is different from alqueda members in total, because anyone can claim to stand for alqueda and kill innocents. so no, we do not fold now, and if we leave the number of alqueda could double to quadruple. The article didn't say that there was only alqueda violence in iraq, there have been many baath insurrections, as well as other parties. but there was never a full fledged civil war.


IF YOUR DUMBASS HAD READ THE ARTICLE YOU WOULDN"T HAVE DRAWN UP THOSE DUMB CONCLUSIONS.They are completely valid conclusions, and of course I read the article since my initial post.

And don't you remember we stand down as they stand up? You're saying the Iraqi security forces cannot stand up to 200 guys. You say there are other parties -- who are they? How many of them are there? Why didn't the economics grad school dropout address these groups in his "history" paper?

Wild Cobra
01-09-2008, 11:04 PM
why post an original thought when you can plagerize a blog..
Well George, you obviously need to look up the definition for "plagiarise."

From wiktionary; plagiarise (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/plagiarize):


To use, and pass off as one's own, someone else's writing/speech.

Since a source link is cited, I see no plagerizing...

Want people to consider your thought? Then use words and facts correctly. Habbits of misuse leads to others ignoring what you say.

Wild Cobra
01-09-2008, 11:06 PM
Sorry but I don't count right wing blogs as objective sources..
What color are liberal tinted shades?

George Gervin's Afro
01-10-2008, 08:09 AM
Well George, you obviously need to look up the definition for "plagiarise."

From wiktionary; plagiarise (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/plagiarize):


Since a source link is cited, I see no plagerizing...

Want people to consider your thought? Then use words and facts correctly. Habbits of misuse leads to others ignoring what you say.



look skippy the entire board knows that yoni , in the past, has given the impression that he passed other's writings as his own.. when you get up to speed let me know..

101A
01-10-2008, 08:55 AM
Takers? Anyone?

Didint think so. Truth hurts.Doesn't mean that claiming because of that history, THAT group of people is INCAPABLE of enjoying the fruits of liberty and Democracy.

ElNono
01-10-2008, 09:53 AM
Doesn't mean that claiming because of that history, THAT group of people is INCAPABLE of enjoying the fruits of liberty and Democracy.

But that's not what you want, or according to your own words, in the best interests of the US. What you want is a non-religious, tolerant democracy.
The US is not interested in democracies like the Palestinian where an armed and intolerant group like Hamas wins the elections.
And I do claim THAT group is INCAPABLE of having a tolerant, non-religious democracy. History *is* the prime example here.

fyatuk
01-10-2008, 10:09 AM
The US is not interested in democracies like the Palestinian where an armed and intolerant group like Hamas wins the elections.
And I do claim THAT group is INCAPABLE of having a tolerant, non-religious democracy. History *is* the prime example here.

If you mean Hamas but THAT group, then absolutely.

Not so if you are including the whole of Islamic people. A good chunk of Egypt and Palestine have showed a move towards tolerance of religion and a desire for democratic ideals, and well as smaller groups in Lebanon and a few other places.

The area itself is tiring of fighting everday while almost the entirety of the rest of the world enjoys peace most of the time, and is sliding to a more agreeable position to US ideals.

101A
01-10-2008, 10:52 AM
But that's not what you want, or according to your own words, in the best interests of the US. What you want is a non-religious, tolerant democracy.
The US is not interested in democracies like the Palestinian where an armed and intolerant group like Hamas wins the elections.
And I do claim THAT group is INCAPABLE of having a tolerant, non-religious democracy. History *is* the prime example here.Hamas is not THAT group. THAT group (the group?) I was referring to was, simply, Muslims.

I called a spade a spade originally when a poster claimed that Muslims, because of "blowing each other up weekly", or some such thing, could NEVER enjoy freedom and democracy. I disagree. The poster was a bigot (by definition, frankly).

Yonivore
01-10-2008, 11:10 AM
look skippy the entire board knows that yoni , in the past, has given the impression that he passed other's writings as his own..
That's not the impression I was going for and when asked I never lied about stealing material. My reasons for posting in manner I do has been explained ad nauseum, search it out if you like.


when you get up to speed let me know..
When you get a clue...meh, might as well have said when monkeys fly out of your butt...

ElNono
01-10-2008, 12:14 PM
Hamas is not THAT group. THAT group (the group?) I was referring to was, simply, Muslims.

I called a spade a spade originally when a poster claimed that Muslims, because of "blowing each other up weekly", or some such thing, could NEVER enjoy freedom and democracy. I disagree. The poster was a bigot (by definition, frankly).

You missed to quote where I referred to Muslims. Oh, wait. I never did.
There's plenty of muslims all over the world, and they don't go all blowing themselves up. I singled out a bunch of countries that have absolutely no interest in detaching themselves from religion and/or intolerance.

I'm actually going to quote you, since you seem short in memory and back then you never talked about the fruits of freedom or democracy:


OR; if it turns out, eventually, that because of the invasion and overthrow, a reasonably stable, non-religious, relatively tolerant, democratic government is established in the ME - does that not help our cause?

The only country that I can think of in that area that fits what you describe there is Israel, and that's by a big stretch in the 'non-religious' portion. Feel free to name me any other that fit that criteria and I might be missing.

The Hamas case is interesting because the political party they backed actually won the elections, which confirms that the vast majority of Palestinians (they wouldn't have won the elections otherwise) support their cause. This is a fact. Wether this is in your or the US best interests is irrelevant.

History shows that what you're looking for is utopian. And that was my point.

But hey, don't let reality get in the way of your argument...

Wild Cobra
01-10-2008, 02:38 PM
look skippy the entire board knows that yoni , in the past, has given the impression that he passed other's writings as his own.. when you get up to speed let me know..
I have never noticed that. You know, sometimes in a rush, comments are not completed. Could it have been that he simply forgot to source material?

Still, I am one that chooses to strive for accuracy. I don't take people seriously who speak with a 3rd grade understanding of words. If you wish people to actually consider your words, you should choose them more correct.

I understand, you use the word play as a personal attack. I attack people sometimes too, but not just to attack. That too ruins a persons credibility to attack with little or no basis. How do you wish to be seen by people?

George Gervin's Afro
01-10-2008, 03:06 PM
I have never noticed that. You know, sometimes in a rush, comments are not completed. Could it have been that he simply forgot to source material?

Still, I am one that chooses to strive for accuracy. I don't take people seriously who speak with a 3rd grade understanding of words. If you wish people to actually consider your words, you should choose them more correct.

I understand, you use the word play as a personal attack. I attack people sometimes too, but not just to attack. That too ruins a persons credibility to attack with little or no basis. How do you wish to be seen by people?


I don't like hypocrites. I want people to be consistent with their criticisms. For whatever reason I am interested in argument structure more than the argument itself. For example, if yoni doesn't like dems doing something and he critcizes them I am ok with that. However if the republicans/ bush did the exact same thing previously and he was silent on it to me that is a hypocrite. I don't ever criticize the republicans or posters here for doing something to then turn around and do it myslef. you may not like me but i am consistent and I am never a hypocrite..


For the record yoni seems like a decent fellow and i just used him as an example..

clambake
01-10-2008, 03:44 PM
well, 9 US soldiers killed (not likely from karma) and 1 al Qaeda killed and 18 captured.

that means there is only 181 left.

Yonivore
01-10-2008, 05:14 PM
For the record yoni seems like a decent fellow...
OMFG! :wow