Game Thoughts: Spurs @ Warriors Jan. 7

[timvp]

As expected, the Spurs and the Warriors put on quite the show tonight. In terms of pure entertainment this season, the game had to rank near the top. The Spurs repeatedly fought back from big deficits and showed a lot of heart throughout.

However, as a Spurs fan who has witnessed how this team needs to play to win a championship, this was an ugly game. If the Spurs weren’t playing poorly on defense, they were failing to execute plays on offense that they’ve executed countless times over the years. The Spurs basically just willed themselves into contention this game. Other than their effort, there weren’t many bright spots in this game.

You have to tip your hat to the Warriors as they too played hard in their 130-121 overtime victory. Their shooters, especially Stephen Jackson, hit some cold blooded three-pointers. Baron Davis also played an extremely impressive ballgame, finishing with 34 points, 14 assists and zero turnovers on 11-for-18 shooting from the field. Somewhere a Mav Fan woke up with a cold sweat.

-Tim Duncan gave another good effort. He finished with 32 points, 14 rebounds, three assists and one turnover. He also hit 14-of-16 free throws. He definitely competed and was a big reason the Spurs kept plugging away. All that being said, Duncan wasn’t as dominant as he could have been. He got lazy a bit on his post moves and didn’t dominate his defenders as much as he should, especially considering he saw a lot of one-on-one matchups. Defensively, he was consistently a step slow with his help defense. Finishing the game with no blocked shots was a telling stat, particularly against a smaller team that was driving into the paint all night. This was the type of game that Duncan could have dominated on the defensive end and he simply didn’t do that.

-Manu Ginobili’s second game back was mostly a success. Ginobili totaled 20 points, six rebounds, four assists and a blocked shot, while hitting 7-of-15 field goals and 3-of-6 three-pointers. It wasn’t all good for Ginobili though as he had five turnovers and a number of defensive miscues. He was gambling a bit too much on both ends of the court and his gambles weren’t paying off. However, considering that his hand is still heavily bandaged and his effort was very good, it’s tough to be too disappointed in his play.

-Tony Parker had some tough stretches but he kept fighting and put together a quality game. Parker had 31 points and eight assists, while shooting 12-for-20 from the field and 6-of-6 from the free throw line. Parker hit a clutch three-pointer at the end of regulation to send this game into overtime. He opened overtime with a layup and later had a nifty pass to Duncan for a layup. He matched up against Monta Ellis defensively and did a fairly decent job against him. It was far from a flawless outing for Parker but he played very well.

-Bruce Bowen had a rough game. Early on Parker rolled into his leg. Then later Bowen twisted his ankle when landing on a three-point attempt. As the game wore on, Bowen struggled defending Davis more and more. Eventually, Pop replaced Bowen with Ime Udoka for defensive purposes. Bowen being benched for his defense isn’t something you see more than a couple times per season. Hopefully Bowen was just having an off night and it wasn’t an injury that was slowing him down.

-Michael Finley bounced back with a solid performance. In 41 minutes of action, Finley scored 14 points on 5-of-11 shooting from the field and 3-of-6 shooting from beyond the three-point arc. Defensively, he might have been the most consistent Spur. He missed a few rotations but overall he was in the right spot more often than not.

-Robert Horry started once again and did next to nothing. He got fouled on a three-pointer and hit all three free throws. That ended up being the highlight of his night. In Horry’s 14 minutes, he had three turnovers and still seems way out of sync. Horry has a lot of time before the playoffs to straighten out his problems but right now he’s not helping the Spurs win games on most nights.

-Ime Udoka had one of his more active games as a member of the team. In 24 minutes, Udoka had 13 points and four rebounds, while shooting 5-for-9 from the field. Udoka was used as a defender against Davis and did a decent job against him. Clearly Davis was on fire but Udoka forced him into some tough shots. Offensively, Udoka still hasn’t figured out where to get his shots but he’s improving in that regard. Although Udoka wasn’t great, this rugged type of play is valued by Pop and could help Udoka earn more minutes as the season progresses.

-Fabricio Oberto awoke from his sleep to play 12 mostly solid minutes. He corralled six rebounds and two of the team’s four steals. His level of activity was much higher in this contest compared to recent performances. He didn’t attempt a field goal but was moving well on the offensive end of the court.

-Jacque Vaughn again was frustrating. For being a player who is so offensively inept, you’d think he’d be reluctant to shoot bad shots. That wasn’t the case in this game as Vaughn put up a couple of head scratchers. After a string of solid outings, this was a step back for Vaughn.

-Matt Bonner played only nine minutes in this game, the fewest minutes he’s played since Dec. 17. In those limited minutes, Bonner jacked up five mostly ill-advised shots. Part of Bonner’s value is his willingness to shoot the ball. However, in this game he went a bit overboard. It wasn’t a horrible game for Bonner but he needs to do a better job of picking his spots offensively.

-I didn’t agree with much of Pop’s defensive game plan. First of all, putting Bowen on Davis all game doesn’t make sense to me. Davis is a quick and physical player that isn’t affected much by Bowen’s defense. When he drives the ball, he can just bull Bowen out of the way. I can see the strategy if you switch Bowen onto Davis for a stretch at the end of the game to give him another look, but if you use bigger defenders such as Bowen and Udoka on Davis all game Davis will figure out how to exploit that matchup. This strategy especially doesn’t make sense because Parker usually defends Davis well.

I also didn’t like how Pop put Ginobili on Jackson. Ginobili by his nature is a wandering defender who is always looking to make a play off the ball. You put him on Jackson and you are basically guaranteeing that Jackson will get some open looks. Pop should know first hand that you don’t give Jackson open looks, especially late in the game. Putting Finley on Jackson made much more sense because Finley rarely ever roams on defense.

Small ball, especially defensively, was mostly a failure in this game. You create a speed mismatch by putting a bigger player on Davis and then you don’t have the size on the court to counter Davis’ penetration? That doesn’t add up.

All in all, I thought the effort was there by the team. It wasn’t like the Warriors outworked the Spurs. The defense just wasn’t solid for the Spurs, be it due to poor coaching or poor decision-making by the players. Offensively, the cohesiveness for the Big Three is also surprisingly lacking. Duncan, Ginobili and Parker simply aren’t connecting as well as they usually do. Luckily, there’s plenty of time to sort this all out and get the team back to playing on all cylinders.

Next up is another interesting game against the Detroit Pistons on Thursday.

[romain.star]

nice post

thanx

[GINNNNNNNNNNNNOBILI]

I'm glad you pointed out Duncan's 0 blocks. He should easily be able to average 4 blocks a game against this Warriors team

[bdictjames]

Now we know the reason why Barry is important to the team.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Nailed it as usual. Great game to watch, not much fun for Spurs fans who want to see their team playing with cohesion at both ends again.

I guess Tim was hampered by that knee, because he had no lift and was slow to rotate on D which is unlike him.

[wildchild]

-Robert Horry started once again and did next to nothing. He got fouled on a three-pointer and hit all three free throws. That ended up being the highlight of his night. In Horry’s 14 minutes, he had three turnovers and still seems way out of sync. Horry has a lot of time before the playoffs to straighten out his problems but right now he’s not helping the Spurs win games on most nights.

-Fabricio Oberto awoke from his sleep to play 12 mostly solid minutes. He corralled six rebounds and two of the team’s four steals. His level of activity was much higher in this contest compared to recent performances. He didn’t attempt a field goal but was moving well on the offensive end of the court.




I'm very sorry but Fab won't start for all season/playoffs or play decent minutes.
It is more like the other way around.
Pop wants guys playing near the three point line all game as Robert/Matt and it doesn't matter if Fabricio is up to his level or not.
However smalls did work. 23-10 is not bad even if we are running the risk of exceeding the healty minutes for Tim in regular season.

:rolleyes

[m33p0]

i don't like the idea of surrounding duncan with 4 essentially perimeter players. 3 is more than enough. timmy needs help on the glass.

[1Parker1]

Has Pop ever put Bowen on Davis the entire game when playing the Warriors? I seem to always recall Parker going against him. And Finley on Jackson would have made sense as well. Outside of Bowen, Finley has surprisingly been the Spurs most consistent defender it seems.

[m33p0]

Has Pop ever put Bowen on Davis the entire game when playing the Warriors? I seem to always recall Parker going against him. And Finley on Jackson would have made sense as well. Outside of Bowen, Finley has surprisingly been the Spurs most consistent defender it seems.
take a look at the big picture. no need to empty bowen's tank so early in the season. its also good practice for parker that will serve the team well if ever the spurs meet the warriors in the playoffs.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I may be way out of line in saying this but I will. Do Baron Davis and Stephen Jackson have a set of rocks on them or what? I love those players.. I really do.. BD is a freaking BEAST!

[SAGambler]

Went pretty much as I figured. Whoever hits the most 3s wins.

And JV. If you ever want to dig urself into a deeper hole, or give up ur lead, send Vaughn in at point. Not saying it's his fault, but it happens too consistently not to have some bearing on how the Spurs play with him at point. Odd thing is, they don't have that same problem when he is on the floor with Tony. Spurs have got to find a better backup point guard.

But all in all, given 4 games in 5 days and the 2nd of a 2nd B2B, I wasn't all that disappointed in the Spurs game. They seemed to have a lot more energy to run up and down with GS than I thought they would. Now they can come home and rest a couple of days and get their legs back under them.

Thought Tony should have been on Davis. But maybe Pop doesn't want to show all his cards in case we meet them in the playoffs.

Also thought Udoka had a decent showing. Hope he keeps coming along.

Not too worried about the Spurs. Now if they are losing these games in May, I'll start to worry about them.

Really looking forward to the Rodeo Road Trip. See if they can gel together like they usually do in that period.

[tmtcsc]

The biggest thing I'll take from this game (along with the fact that it was entertaining) was that we showed heart and didn't give up.

Pop is willing to take a few risks with our chemistry by starting Horry. Its obvious to me that the only reason Horry is starting is to give him more minutes with our starting 5. This won't last too much longer.

The Spurs know that this is a very long season and I don't think they are overly concerned by dropping a road game to a Warriors team that took terrible shots AND made them. That style will may win you 1 playoff series but will get you hammered in the long run. Ask Dallas and Utah.

Our defense wasn't that bad, the Warriors just seemed to get more breaks than we did. Bowen wasn't on the floor and he would have made a difference. Pop got to see what Udoka could do and he responded pretty well. I would have liked to see him take that 3 instead of pump faking and going for the 2 late in the game. Also, you don't let Baron Davis dribble at the top of the 3 pt line more than 4 or 5 times. Chances are, he's sizing up his shot. You know he's going to shoot it.

Ah well, good game and the long preseason continues.

[41times]

When the Big 3 all score 20 points or more and the Spurs still lose.........something is wrong.

and you only have to look as far as the FG % that the Warriors shot. 52%! are you kidding me. 52% against the Spurs, thats ridiculous.

The Warriors are a nightmare team because they have never met a shot that they did not like, especially Davis and Jackson. So if they are on, they are tough to beat no matter what you do.

This is a different team than the early part of last year. The last 2 months of last season the Warriors started to put it all together and it culmianted with a win over Dallas in the Playoffs. Now if Jackson can stay on the court (ie. suspensions) and Davis stays healthy, this team has a chance to make some noise.

People laughed at Dallas last year for losing to them in the Playoffs because they were an 8 seed. But most of those people did not take into account that the team at the end of the season, when Jackson was added, was a different than the team that played the first 50 games of the season. When Jackson and Davis are on the court together the Warriors win about 65-70% of the time. That's pretty good.

The Mavs have handled them this year by 5 and by 22 but I still don't want to play them in the playoffs.

Can you imagine a playoff series between the Warriors and the Suns?!?! First one to 150 wins!

[SenorSpur]

Went pretty much as I figured. Whoever hits the most 3s wins.

And JV. If you ever want to dig urself into a deeper hole, or give up ur lead, send Vaughn in at point. Not saying it's his fault, but it happens too consistently not to have some bearing on how the Spurs play with him at point. Odd thing is, they don't have that same problem when he is on the floor with Tony. Spurs have got to find a better backup point guard.

But all in all, given 4 games in 5 days and the 2nd of a 2nd B2B, I wasn't all that disappointed in the Spurs game. They seemed to have a lot more energy to run up and down with GS than I thought they would. Now they can come home and rest a couple of days and get their legs back under them.

Thought Tony should have been on Davis. But maybe Pop doesn't want to show all his cards in case we meet them in the playoffs.

Also thought Udoka had a decent showing. Hope he keeps coming along.

Not too worried about the Spurs. Now if they are losing these games in May, I'll start to worry about them.

Really looking forward to the Rodeo Road Trip. See if they can gel together like they usually do in that period.

Obviously, Pop's overall mantra has always been to ensure the players are healthy, rested and playing their best ball heading into the playoffs. That's worked wonderfully. At the same time, if Pop actually is resisting the urge to exploit more favorable matchups because he doesn't want to "show all his cards" until the playoffs, he shouuld be fired. OK, not literally, but you get the idea. His job is to put the players in the best position to win ballgames. There are no secrets in the NBA. Everybody knows what teams and players can and cannot do.

As for last night, he should have taken Bowen off Davis much, much earlier in that game. The Parker-on-Davis matchup is usually a better one - until Davis takes him into the post.

Also, I agree with the assertion that Ginobili on Jackson doesn't make sense because of Manu's tendency to roam. A great point. Finley or even Bowen would have made better sense. Of course, Jackson is such a beast, he'd likely light up whoever guards him. The issue though is he should NEVER, EVER have a wide open 3.

[MoSpur]

I'm glad I stayed up to watch the game and mad at the same time. Glad because it was very entertaining and mad because the Spurs lost. I was disappointed in a lot of the calls the a non-calls the officials made and did not make. Oh well. The Spurs did good considering it was their fourth game in five days and second of a back to back.

[sa_butta]

I'm glad I stayed up to watch the game and mad at the same time. Glad because it was very entertaining and mad because the Spurs lost. I was disappointed in a lot of the calls the a non-calls the officials made and did not make. Oh well. The Spurs did good considering it was their fourth game in five days and second of a back to back.I think the Spurs did a good job playing through the calls/non calls. Im sure there were some the other way as well. All in all great effort, even when down by 12 they still showed that they could fight back. Great game hopefully we can regroup for the Pistons.

[T Park]

Spurs have got to find a better backup point guard

If you find one, I'd bet they'd love to know about him.

[team-work]

As long as the Spurs fight hard, I'm not disappointed with a loss.

There's really no short cut to success without going through & overcoming the difficult situations.

[SouthernFried]

In terms of pure entertainment this season, the game had to rank near the top.

However, as a Spurs fan who has witnessed how this team needs to play to win a championship, this was an ugly game. If the Spurs weren’t playing poorly on defense, they were failing to execute plays on offense that they’ve executed countless times over the years. The Spurs basically just willed themselves into contention this game. Other than their effort, there weren’t many bright spots in this game.



I also didn’t like how Pop put Ginobili on Jackson. Ginobili by his nature is a wandering defender who is always looking to make a play off the ball. You put him on Jackson and you are basically guaranteeing that Jackson will get some open looks. Pop should know first hand that you don’t give Jackson open looks, especially late in the game. Putting Finley on Jackson made much more sense because Finley rarely ever roams on defense.

The defense just wasn’t solid for the Spurs, be it due to poor coaching or poor decision-making by the players. .

Brilliant point about Manu.

I love his roaming Defense, he does a lot when he can come off his player and roam around doing his disruptive thing. But, you never put him on a scorer if you want him to do that. Jackson was so wide open, so many times...he coulda put it away in regulation if he just hit one more of those wide open shots.

Finley would have been the natural matchup with Jackson. And I never thought I'd say it...but, Finley is becoming a damned good defender. Amazing to me, and a testament to him.


And I don't understand how any spurs fans found this game entertaining. This was not Spurs ball at all. This was Warriors ball. Ugly, relying on broken plays and the resulting chaos to score. This is the kind of "entertainment" the NBA front office loves, and Spurs fans should ridicule. If you like Warriors and Suns type of play, I guess you'd love this type of game.

I like Spurs type of play.

[clambake]

"Somewhere a Mavs fan woke up in a cold sweat"

Classic, nail on the head.

[loveforthegame]

Great recap. Thanks.

I mentioned in another thread how impressed I was with Finley's defense on Jackson. Never thought I could say that but he did a good job of not allowing Jackson to even get a shot and played him pretty close. Even the few times Jackson tried to post him up he was forced to pass back out. I don't understand why Pop went with Ginobli.

I also thought Udoka did an admirable job on Davis. By the time he started guarding him he was already on fire but forcing him to take tough shots is about all you can ask when he's in the zone.

I thought backup pg was the biggest concern but it appears center isn't far behind if not equal to it. We're getting nothing out of Elson (DNP's), Oberto has really struggled, and Horry still isn't in form. No need to panic but something might have to be done there.

[da_suns_fan]

LMAO @ timvp doing his best Charlie Rosen impression.

A "nifty" pass? :lol

Get a life.

[ChumpDumper]

Get a life.Get an appreciation for irony.

[da_suns_fan]

Here's a game thought: Baron Davis is a much better point guard than Tony Parker.

[BeerIsGood!]

If you find one, I'd bet they'd love to know about him.

I always find it funny that some people expect for the Spurs to have great players 2 deep at every position. Talk about unrealistic expectations. Vaughn is the usually steady and consistent, if not at all spectacular, backup to an allstar caliber PG. He comes cheap, and at the backup PG position that is exactly what the Spurs want. They need that cap room for other positions.

[ChumpDumper]

Here's a game thought: Baron Davis is a much better point guard than Tony Parker.Here's a game thought. sunfan is obsessed with the Spurs and their games.

[THE SIXTH MAN]

Here's a game thought: Baron Davis is a much better point guard than Tony Parker.
Heres another thought:The Warriors are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more exciting to watch then the suns.

:lol And if teh suns dont watch out...oh noes they might lose their ratings championship!

[da_suns_fan]

Heres another thought:The Warriors are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more exciting to watch then the suns.

:lol And if teh suns dont watch out...oh noes they might lose their ratings championship!


What do the Suns have to do with Baron Davis and Tony Parker?

I guess Spurs fans have just given up trying to defend Mr. Longoria.

[FromWayDowntown]

I respect the effort last night under some adverse circumstances -- 4th game in 5 nights; playing in a hostile environment; still trying to put the pieces together -- and think it's almost amazing that the Spurs were even in position to get that game into overtime. If the Spurs could have been bothered to deny a few layups in the 2nd quarter (at one point, the Warriors were 12-14 from the field in that quarter; I thought the Warriors were effective at doing what they do, but it was unusual for a Spurs team to permit so many easy looks, including layups) they likely pull that game out -- though it wouldn't have required the furious 4th quarter comeback.

I was impressed that the Spurs were, for the most part, able to match the Warriors shot-for-shot from the late third through the end of regulation. For a team that has been offensively-inept of late, the Spurs at least showed some signs of life (granted, against a team that plays lip service to really playing defense) and found ways to score when they had to. In thinking about the building process of a season, I certainly think that's a positive that can be taken from last night's game.

With that, there were far too many unnecessary/unforced/stupid turnovers for the Spurs last night and that's troubling.

[T Park]

With that, there were far too many unnecessary/unforced/stupid turnovers for the Spurs last night and that's troubling.

eh they always do that in the first half of the season.

[polandprzem]

TPark can you take off your ugly signature?

[tmtcsc]

Here's a game thought: Baron Davis is a much better point guard than Tony Parker.


Here's a game thought: Your Suns team as you know it will be trading a star player because of "chemistry" issues. Bye Bye Rajah Bell most likely. Marion ? Who wants that bloated contract ? Same for Diaw.

[da_suns_fan]

Here's a game thought: Your Suns team as you know it will be trading a star player because of "chemistry" issues. Bye Bye Rajah Bell most likely. Marion ? Who wants that bloated contract ? Same for Diaw.

:lol

Can't we talk about the SPURS?

Lets rank NBA point guards, shall we?

1) Nash
1a) Chris Paul (although this is getting harder and harder to justify)

From there it goes to the second tier "Franchise point guards".

This includes Baron Davis, Gilbert Arenas, Jason Kidd and Chauncy Billups

Next comes the "next generation guys not quite ready for franchise status"

This includes Deron Williams and Brandon Roy.

Next comes "talented point guards who don't do much besides score."

This includes Devin Harris, Tony Parker and Leandro Barbosa.

[Kori Ellis]

:lol

Can't we talk about the SPURS?

Lets rank NBA point guards, shall we?

1) Nash
1a) Chris Paul (although this is getting harder and harder to justify)

From there it goes to the second tier "Franchise point guards".

This includes Baron Davis, Gilbert Arenas, Jason Kidd and Chauncy Billups

Next comes the "next generation guys not quite ready for franchise status"

This includes Deron Williams and Brandon Roy.

Next comes "talented point guards who don't do much besides score."

This includes Devin Harris, Tony Parker and Leandro Barbosa.

You are picking a bad day to do this, considering Tony had 31 and 8 last night, and he wasn't the one guarding Baron Davis.

But let's rank championships instead, shall we? The bottomline in sports is winning.

Anyway, you are annoying as hell. If you want, I can just re-ban you, or you can start posting like someone who has an ounce of intelligence.

[FromWayDowntown]

Gilbert Arenas does things other than score?

His status as a franchise player is certainly being tested by this year's Wizards team.

[da_suns_fan]

You are picking a bad day to do this, considering Tony had 31 and 8 last night, and he wasn't the one guarding Baron Davis.

But let's rank championships instead, shall we? The bottomline in sports is winning.

Anyway, you are annoying as hell. If you want, I can just re-ban you, or you can start posting like someone who has an ounce of intelligence.

I don't wait for Parker to have a bad game to say my opinion of him.

When everyone was just GLOSSING the guy in the beginning of the year (when he was playing very well), I was saying the same thing.

You'll allow the most vulgar and profanity laced posts to go unchecked (see mardigan, stretch etc), but saying Tony Parker isnt an elite point guard can get you banned?

Do whatever you want........you should really just post some forum rules.

[Kori Ellis]

....

Do whatever you want........you should really just post some forum rules.

Since you need clarification, here's your rule:

Stop making everyone of your posts read like this ...

"Spurs are OLD. Spurs SUCK. Spurs are OLD. Spurs SUCK. SUNS RULE!!?!!"

You sound like a repetitive dimwit.

[ChumpDumper]

Do whatever you want........you should really just post some forum rules.The rule is she does whatever she wants.

And as much as it galls you, Tony is really quite good.

[Bruno]

BTW, Parker said after the clippers game that "his ankle doesn't bother him anymore' and that "he was at 100%".

And I know it's not really related with this thread but I don't want to start a thread just for that.

[DazedAndConfused]

As long as the Spur's defense is there they will be fine. Offense comes and goes, but the one constant you can always bring as a team is great defense. Despite a horrific offensive game (sans 4th quarter) the Spurs were in the game and damn near won it. They'll pickup their offense as the playoff approaches.

I really think not having Barry in that 2nd unit is more devastating than people think. He is a key initiator/facilitator on offense for their 2nd unit. The other Spur's bench players need to step up, Udoka/Bonner/Vaughan are not getting it done.

[telecomguy]

Here's a game thought: Baron Davis is a much better point guard than Tony Parker.


no kidding...i have been saying that for long time.

Baron is a stud. The thing is Tony still can't hit jumpers (the 3 not withstanding) on a reliable basis.

Tony is very good but until he gets a reliable jumper, he will never be a top 5 PG in the NBA in my opinion.

(ok i am ready for the rotten eggs coming my way.....:)

[SenorSpur]

As long as the Spur's defense is there they will be fine. Offense comes and goes, but the one constant you can always bring as a team is great defense. Despite a horrific offensive game (sans 4th quarter) the Spurs were in the game and damn near won it. They'll pickup their offense as the playoff approaches.

That's part of the problem. Their defense, at least last night anyway, was terrible. Over the course of this season, it's been very inconsistent -at best. The offense has also been struggling and inconsistent too. Much in part to the rash of injuries, but also the result of poor shooting and shot selection.


I really think not having Barry in that 2nd unit is more devastating than people think. He is a key initiator/facilitator on offense for their 2nd unit. The other Spur's bench players need to step up, Udoka/Bonner/Vaughan are not getting it done.

That may be true to a point, but Barry's presence solves nothing on the defensive side.

[telecomguy]

:lol

Can't we talk about the SPURS?

Lets rank NBA point guards, shall we?

1) Nash
1a) Chris Paul (although this is getting harder and harder to justify)

From there it goes to the second tier "Franchise point guards".

This includes Baron Davis, Gilbert Arenas, Jason Kidd and Chauncy Billups

Next comes the "next generation guys not quite ready for franchise status"

This includes Deron Williams and Brandon Roy.

Next comes "talented point guards who don't do much besides score."

This includes Devin Harris, Tony Parker and Leandro Barbosa.

This is not a bad synopsis of the top PG rankings......although I would definitely put Deron Williams above Gilbert Arenas. Here is my take.

1) Nash
2) Kidd
3) Chauncy
4) Deron
5) Paul
6) Baron
7) Harris
8) Parker
9) Roy
10 Arenas

[tlongII]

83 points from the Big 3 and you still lose? Not a good sign...

[diego]

da suns suck

where are people saying baron sucks anyways? he's a great pg, when healthy.

if you consider arenas, roy, and barbosa point guards, then what's your problem with parker?

i guess you expect spurs fans to dismiss the point guard that led them to 3 titles in 5 years? well i think steve nash's nutsack is producing a powerful narcotic and you need to seek medical attention immediately before it consumes you entirely.

[da_suns_fan]

This is not a bad synopsis of the top PG rankings......although I would definitely put Deron Williams above Gilbert Arenas. Here is my take.

1) Nash
2) Kidd
3) Chauncy
4) Deron
5) Paul
6) Baron
7) Harris
8) Parker
9) Roy
10 Arenas

Wow....I have hard time writing Paul as number two.

[Barbarian]

This is not a bad synopsis of the top PG rankings......although I would definitely put Deron Williams above Gilbert Arenas. Here is my take.

1) Nash
2) Kidd
3) Chauncy
4) Deron
5) Paul
6) Baron
7) Harris
8) Parker
9) Roy
10 Arenas

Harris > Parker, Arenas and Roy???? Paul at 5???? I will never take any of your posts serious again.

[telecomguy]

Harris > Parker, Arenas and Roy???? Paul at 5???? I will never take any of your posts serious again.

ARENAS JACKS UP TOO MANY SHOTS AND DOESN'T GET HIS TEAMMATES INVOLVED. LOOK WHAT HAPPENED WHEN HE GOT INJURED.....WASHINGTON PLAYED REALLY WELL AND CARON BUTLER EMERGED

WITH ROY, I MAY HAVE HIM TOO LOW BUT I REALLY HAVE ONLY SEEN HIM FEW TIMES AND HE DIDN'T HAVE GREAT GAMES SO MAYBE I AM BIASED. HER CERTAINLY HAS THE SIZE AND ATHELETICISM.....SIMILAR TO DERON

HARRIS IS A VERY GOOD DEFENDER AND THAT IS WHY I HAVE HIM HIGHER THAN PARKER AND ARENAS. I THINK IF HARRIS PLAYED ON A TEAM WHERE HE DIDN'T HAVE SO MANY SHOOTERS AND OFFENSIVE MINDED PLAYERS, HE WOULD BE SCORING MORE. HARRIS IS A GOOD PLAYER......AND EVEN FASTER THAN TONY.

[telecomguy]

where are people saying baron sucks anyways? he's a great pg, when healthy.

if you consider arenas, roy, and barbosa point guards, then what's your problem with parker?

i guess you expect spurs fans to dismiss the point guard that led them to 3 titles in 5 years? well i think steve nash's nutsack is producing a powerful narcotic and you need to seek medical attention immediately before it consumes you entirely.

Parker LED the Spurs to 3 titles in 5 years? The first one against New Jersey, a second string guard had to take over for TP in the playoffs because TP started choking so badly. The second title against Pistons, Manu was the superman. In both of those titles, Duncan was the main man. The last title against Cavs, TP played very well and you can say he LED the team to the title.

So 1 title out of 4, TP contributed significantly, although even last year, DUncan was clearly the PLAYOFFS MVP as he dominated against the Suns in their toughest matchup on the road to the championship.

The good thing is that TP is improving EVERY YEAR so he may one day yet become top 5 PG in the league but he isn't there yet.

[Barbarian]

ARENAS JACKS UP TOO MANY SHOTS AND DOESN'T GET HIS TEAMMATES INVOLVED. LOOK WHAT HAPPENED WHEN HE GOT INJURED.....WASHINGTON PLAYED REALLY WELL AND CARON BUTLER EMERGED

WITH ROY, I MAY HAVE HIM TOO LOW BUT I REALLY HAVE ONLY SEEN HIM FEW TIMES AND HE DIDN'T HAVE GREAT GAMES SO MAYBE I AM BIASED. HER CERTAINLY HAS THE SIZE AND ATHELETICISM.....SIMILAR TO DERON

HARRIS IS A VERY GOOD DEFENDER AND THAT IS WHY I HAVE HIM HIGHER THAN PARKER AND ARENAS. I THINK IF HARRIS PLAYED ON A TEAM WHERE HE DIDN'T HAVE SO MANY SHOOTERS AND OFFENSIVE MINDED PLAYERS, HE WOULD BE SCORING MORE. HARRIS IS A GOOD PLAYER......AND EVEN FASTER THAN TONY.

Whats with the shouting?
I may agree a bit about Arenas but my point is that you are over rating Harris. He is not in the same class as the other 9 pg on your flawed list. Parker > Harris in a landslide. Mavs would trade for parker in heart beat. as they would for Roy.

[telecomguy]

Whats with the shouting?
I may agree a bit about Arenas but my point is that you are over rating Harris. He is not in the same class as the other 9 pg on your flawed list. Parker > Harris in a landslide. Mavs would trade for parker in heart beat. as they would for Roy.

"Mavs would trade for parker in heart beat. as they would for Roy"

I think you are speculating here......

[ChumpDumper]

The first one against New Jersey, a second string guard had to take over for TP in the playoffs because TP started choking so badly.I'm beginning to think even spurfans didn't watch that series.

[telecomguy]

I'm beginning to think even spurfans didn't watch that series.


I forgot that guard name...he got traded the year after. He is still playing I believe but hurt right now. I definitely remember TP getting yanked at some point in the playoff run.

[gsdubs]

Basically, I'm hearing the same complaints I hear from most every team the Warriors beat. Sloppy defense, in particular. I think, though, that you can pin that more on what the Warriors WERE doing than on what the Spurs weren't. It's not like you lost to a team full of scrubs. They've got some talent and that talent can make teams look foolish. But more importantly, they've got some real cold-blooded assassins...the very opposite of those candyasses outta Dallas. Perhaps they should be cuz they're so small, but the Warriors aren't scared of anybody. Not even "The Borg"(that'd be you guys for those who don't know).

Anyway, I hear it and read it time and again from opposing fans. "On nights when the Warriors play like this, no one will beat them"...and you guys very nearly did...on the tail-end of a back to back. Hope you guys get knocked off before we have to meet you in the playoffs, cuz you're still the team most sane Dub fans would love love love to avoid. Best.

[Kori Ellis]

I'm beginning to think even spurfans didn't watch that series.

You are confusing telecomguy with a Spurs fan. :lol But you are right, Spurs fans still glorify Speedy's 1 1/2 game contribution to equate an entire playoff run :lol Speedy averaged 5 and 2 in those playoffs but some people think it was 20 and 10.

[Kori Ellis]

I forgot that guard name...he got traded the year after. He is still playing I believe but hurt right now. I definitely remember TP getting yanked at some point in the playoff run.

He got yanked for a quarter :lol He averaged 15 ppg in that playoff run.

[telecomguy]

You are confusing telecomguy with a Spurs fan. :lol But you are right, Spurs fans still glorify Speedy's 1 1/2 game contribution to equate an entire playoff run :lol Speedy averaged 5 and 2 in those playoffs but some people think it was 20 and 10.

ok then...what did Parker average in that playoff run? and what did he do to LEAD the Spurs to the title against NEw Jersey? All I remember is Duncan dominating every single game....and dont remember Parker doing anything other than walking the ball up and throwing into Duncan in the post.

please correct me if i am wrong.

[Barbarian]

"Mavs would trade for parker in heart beat. as they would for Roy"

I think you are speculating here......

Obviously I didn't confirm with Cuban before I posted but it's a no-brainer.

[diego]

Parker LED the Spurs to 3 titles in 5 years? The first one against New Jersey, a second string guard had to take over for TP in the playoffs because TP started choking so badly. The second title against Pistons, Manu was the superman. In both of those titles, Duncan was the main man. The last title against Cavs, TP played very well and you can say he LED the team to the title.

So 1 title out of 4, TP contributed significantly, although even last year, DUncan was clearly the PLAYOFFS MVP as he dominated against the Suns in their toughest matchup on the road to the championship.

The good thing is that TP is improving EVERY YEAR so he may one day yet become top 5 PG in the league but he isn't there yet.

who was the spurs PG during those 5 years??
was it kidd? was it williams? was it nash? No. it was tony. and you know who lost all those series? exactly- kidd, nash and all your other great pgs. so why do we need them when we can beat them with a 24 year old french kid (who just happens to have the best FG% of them all). are there other pgs in the league who are better than parker? sure. that doesnt mean he isnt a damn good one in his own right. if you want to have the best player at every position, stick to the playstation.

[Kori Ellis]

ok then...what did Parker average in that playoff run? and what did he do to LEAD the Spurs to the title against NEw Jersey? All I remember is Duncan dominating every single game....and dont remember Parker doing anything other than walking the ball up and throwing into Duncan in the post.

please correct me if i am wrong.

I didn't say he led the Spurs against NJ. But he was the starting point guard, 21 years old or so, and averaged 14-15 ppg.

[telecomguy]

who was the spurs PG during those 5 years??
was it kidd? was it williams? was it nash? No. it was tony. and you know who lost all those series? exactly- kidd, nash and all your other great pgs. so why do we need them when we can beat them with a 24 year old french kid (who just happens to have the best FG% of them all). are there other pgs in the league who are better than parker? sure. that doesnt mean he isnt a damn good one in his own right. if you want to have the best player at every position, stick to the playstation.

He is very good....and getting better. He is just not top 5 yet. That is all I said. But lets get real. Duncan is the main man, and Gino ain't too shabby either.

[telecomguy]

I didn't say he led the Spurs against NJ. But he was the starting point guard, 21 years old or so, and averaged 14-15 ppg.

OK thats a fair comment. He was very young.....

[diego]

He is very good....and getting better. He is just not top 5 yet. That is all I said. But lets get real. Duncan is the main man, and Gino ain't too shabby either.

no, you like da suns fan started going on some diatribe about tony's place in the league on a spurs forum about last night's game between the warriors and spurs, as if you expected people to say "yeah i really wish we had baron -i've-never-played-an-entire-season- davis instead". thats fucking bullshit. parker has been our point guard for over 5 years and we've done great with him, often knocking out the same "great pg" led teams you and da suns fan idolize. go take that shit to another forum, cause no one here is going to throw him under the bus. you got here four years too late to be pulling that shit.

[FromWayDowntown]

All I remember is Duncan dominating every single game....and dont remember Parker doing anything other than walking the ball up and throwing into Duncan in the post.

please correct me if i am wrong.

If you go back and watch those games, its hard to imagine that team winning that title without Tony Parker and Stephen Jackson.

You can call him out all you want, but going to Dallas tied at 1-1, Parker put on a clinic for 2 games and put the Mavs in a gigantic hole. Parker's 3rd Quarter in Game 3 of the 2003 WCF (bringing the Spurs back from an 8 point halftime deficit) was better than just about any entire game that Speedy Claxton played as a Spur.

He was also fabulous in the Spurs' closeout win in LA that year with 27 points and 5 assists -- a performance that's frequently forgotten because of how good Tim was that night.

And, lest anyone forget, he averaged 21 and 5 for the first 3 games of the 2003 Finals -- to be sure he struggled the rest of the way, but his performance in Game 3 of that series was huge for the Spurs, too, and Game 3 of that series was pivotal.

[timvp]

This is not a bad synopsis of the top PG rankings......although I would definitely put Deron Williams above Gilbert Arenas. Here is my take.

1) Nash
2) Kidd
3) Chauncy
4) Deron
5) Paul
6) Baron
7) Harris
8) Parker
9) Roy
10 ArenasI don't know what is more stupider:

1) Putting Harris above Parker. Even the blindest of Mav Fan would call you crazy.

2) Listing Roy as a point guard.

3) The phrase "more stupider".

[T Park]

Harris Paul ahead of Parker?

Are you fucking retarded?

[roycrikside]

When you stop and think about their age, their all around game including defense, the only two guys you can put above Tony IMO are Paul and Williams.

Kidd gets knocked down because he can't score or shoot, Chauncey's a career 41% shooter and hasn't had a good playoffs since '05 and Nash is a terrible defender and up there in age.

The Spurs will be okay, the big three just have to find their rhythm and get used to each other again, and Barry has to come back and Oberto has to start playing like he was the first two months. I think an issue the team is struggling with is that they don't know what kind of game/effort they're going to get from Timmy on a night to night basis. Some days this is a backcourt led team and other nights it's the inside-out team we're all used to. Duncan isn't able to dial it up all the time like he used to so it takes the other guys like half the game just to figure out what he's got on a given night. I just wish he was more consistent defensively. That was the biggest problem last night, Tim had an awful defensive showing and Tony and Manu weren't much better.

[bigfundamental21]

As long as the Spur's defense is there they will be fine. Offense comes and goes, but the one constant you can always bring as a team is great defense. Despite a horrific offensive game (sans 4th quarter) the Spurs were in the game and damn near won it. They'll pickup their offense as the playoff approaches.
I agree that our struggles on offense can easily be remedied. Just keep shooting is the best way to overcome it. As long as we continue to play good defense, we will give ourselves a chance to win. That being said, I did not feel that our defense was as good as it could be. We repeatedly left shooters wide open on the 3 point line and thus the Warriors shot 45% from 3. That alone was hard to overcome. Also, we allowed them to score 35 in the second quarter after only allowing 17 in the first. That dug a big whole, which we expended a lot of energy to overcome and playing in the second of a back to back, you know fatigue had to be factor. timvp made good points about the defensive matchups that really cost us, i.e., Manu on Sjax and Bowen/Udoka on Davis the whole night.

I also think that although Tony had a decent game, he really should have pushed the ball more on Baron. There were several times where Baron was barely able to get up the floor with Tony. He should have exploited that.

All in all, I was glad to see the effort from the Spurs. We continued to play and put ourselves in a position to win the game. The Big Three played a hell of a game. This was a good step in the right direction.

[telecomguy]

I don't know what is more stupider:

1) Putting Harris above Parker. Even the blindest of Mav Fan would call you crazy.

2) Listing Roy as a point guard.

3) The phrase "more stupider".


1) I don't see too many games that Harris plays because I am a Spurs fan but many games I've seen Spurs play against Mavs, Harris plays well and quite often outplays Parker. This is what I see. And Harris is forced to play much of a supporting role in the Mavs team compared to TP who now has green light to do just about anything he wants except shoot the 3's.

2) Roy is probably more of a point guard than Parker who really is a Scoring Guard in disguise. Don't you think?

3) It would be doubly more stupider for me to respond to this point

[timvp]

BTW, Parker said after the clippers game that "his ankle doesn't bother him anymore' and that "he was at 100%".

And I know it's not really related with this thread but I don't want to start a thread just for that.Good to know. Now hopefully Parker can actually be consistent in January. He's been wildly inconsistent as of late ... even within games.


The Spurs will be okay, the big three just have to find their rhythm and get used to each other again,True. The chemistry of the Big Three lately has been pretty poor. I think it's because they've had to switch up their styles so much in the last month. They went from balanced chemistry when they were all healthy, to Tony and Manu centered when Duncan went down, to Manu centered when Parker's ankle acted up and Duncan was down, to Tony centered when Manu got hurt and Duncan was just getting back, to Tim centered when Manu was out and Tony was sick, to the jumbled mess there is now. This is the first time each of the Big Three got hurt all around the same time. They'll obviously figure it out but right now they have like preseason level chemistry between the three of them.


Tim had an awful defensive showing and Tony and Manu weren't much better.I would rate the defensive performances by Duncan, Ginobili and Bowen much worse than that of Parker. Parker actually picked up his defensive intensity in the second half. In fact, he held Monta Ellis scoreless for the last 15 minutes of the game. During that time, Ginobili let Jackson score something like 20 points, Davis exploded on Bowen and Duncan was invisible at the rim.

[Manudona]

There are somethings that I have some problems to agree or to understand, I am not checking the scoreboard or the plays by plays, and this happened more than a day ago, too much time for my feeble memory, but I am sure you guys will check it or remember to set me straight

1) Why everyone is so hard on JV? I do not think he sucked, in fact he was in the formation that I believe put the game back into contention, at the end of the 3rd/beginning of the 4th when the Spurs made a small run with Parker and Duncan sitting

2) I am not sure if Manu letting Jackson shoot the 3 late in the game was not by design, keep in mind that he was having a tough shooting night, like 5/15 or so and BD was very hot, so I am not sure if Manu was gambling or doubling on BD, but he did it so many times that I can not imagine Pop not calling him on that, or may be he did call him and I missed

3) What happened with Manu shooting late in the game? He barely tried, even after a sweeet crossover on Jackson, with Jackson on the floor and Manu completely free on the top of the key, he opted to pass the ball instead of shooting, and I do not recall him shooting even once in the last portion of the 4th and OT, maybe the hand was bothering him or his confidence was lacking?

Again, I did not check so I might be completely off mark, it is more my perception of some actions without corroborating them

[timaios]

ok then...what did Parker average in that playoff run? and what did he do to LEAD the Spurs to the title against NEw Jersey? All I remember is Duncan dominating every single game....and dont remember Parker doing anything other than walking the ball up and throwing into Duncan in the post.

please correct me if i am wrong.

Hi everyone, for my first post i give you the stats of 2003 finals on that link
http://www.nba.com/spurs/stats/2002/nba_finals_stats.html

Tim Duncan 43.8 min 24.2 pts 17.0 rbs 5.3 ast
Tony Parker 35.3 min 14.0 pts 3.2 rbs 4.2 ast
David Robinson 26.8 min 10.8 pts 7.3 rbs 0.7 ast
Stephen Jackson 35.5 min 10.3 pts 4.2 rbs 2.7 ast
Manu Ginobili 28.7 min 8.7 pts 4.5 rbs 2.0 ast
...
Speedy Claxton 12.5 min 6.2 pts 1.0 rbs 1.5 ast

2005 finals
http://www.nba.com/spurs/stats/2004/nba_finals_stats.html

[SenorSpur]

Basically, I'm hearing the same complaints I hear from most every team the Warriors beat. Sloppy defense, in particular. I think, though, that you can pin that more on what the Warriors WERE doing than on what the Spurs weren't. It's not like you lost to a team full of scrubs. They've got some talent and that talent can make teams look foolish. But more importantly, they've got some real cold-blooded assassins...the very opposite of those candyasses outta Dallas. Perhaps they should be cuz they're so small, but the Warriors aren't scared of anybody. Not even "The Borg"(that'd be you guys for those who don't know).

Anyway, I hear it and read it time and again from opposing fans. "On nights when the Warriors play like this, no one will beat them"...and you guys very nearly did...on the tail-end of a back to back. Hope you guys get knocked off before we have to meet you in the playoffs, cuz you're still the team most sane Dub fans would love love love to avoid. Best.

I hope you guys draw Dallas again in the playoffs. Would love to see the sequel to last spring's stunning playoff upset.

[Solid D]

I thought the Spurs had the Warriors on the ropes when, with a lineup of Parker, Gino, Udoka, Fin and Timmy, the Spurs cut a 14-point Warrior's lead down to 2 in roughly 3 and a half minutes at the end of the 3rd quarter. A crazy bounce or two, a Jackson and-1 with Oberto getting charged with a retreating, hands-up belly foul put the fire out to end the quarter. Biedrins got his 5th foul with 8 1/2 minutes remaining in the 4th and Tim should have been licking his chops and ready to devour. Nope. Not one pump-fake or creative move from Timmy to draw the 6th foul. Tim settled for the path of least resistance with basic, primary moves.

........and then......meh.

The Warriors got good again. Real good. The Spurs got it to OT on sheer guts with Parker leading the charge. A lucky bounce here, no rotation to help there, and the Spurs couldn't close the deal. The minutes-laden Jack and Davis reached down and slit the Spurs throats.