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duncan228
01-10-2008, 05:44 PM
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=Centers-080110&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2finsider%2fcolumns%2fstory%3fcolumnist%3dholling er_john%26page%3dCenters-080110

Are centers really a dying breed? Quite the contrary
By John Hollinger

Battle between two of the game's best centers? Depends who you ask and how you define a center.

"I feel like we're dinosaurs, almost done." -- Yao Ming

"There's just not a lot of us left." -- Dwight Howard

Talk to almost anyone in the NBA, and they'll tell you the same story -- that centers are a dying breed, that once Shaq retires there will hardly be any left, and that the rare battle between two true low-post players makes them misty-eyed for the days of yore. It's a consensus you'll rarely hear anyone contest.

It's also totally false.

Start clicking through games on NBA League Pass and try finding teams that are struggling in the middle -- you'll quickly see that rumors of the center's demise have been greatly exaggerated. In fact, only a few teams have a real problem at the position. By my count, there are four: Toronto, New Jersey, Seattle and (sadly) Chicago. That's it.

Four others, Atlanta, Boston, Memphis and Dallas, could be better but are getting by OK with what they've got. And an additional two teams, Miami and Portland, would be fine were it not for injuries to their star big men.

The other 20 of the league's 30 teams are somewhere between satisfied and ecstatic with their center play this season, leaving me to wonder why the perception of the center shortage continues.

Believe it or not, 28 centers have a player efficiency rating (PER) above the league average, the most of any position. And although you can debate the bona fides of a few that have been forced to the middle by circumstances (Stromile Swift, for example), the vast majority are legitimate pivot men.

Part of the problem is our definition of a center, one best exemplified by the unusual case of Tim Duncan. Duncan is a dominating low-post player who entered the league as the most coveted center since Shaq. But because David Robinson was the Spurs' starting center when Duncan came to San Antonio, the team called Duncan its power forward. And when Robinson retired in 2003, nobody updated that definition.


To this day, the Spurs introduce Duncan as a forward … even when he starts alongside shorter, lighter teammates like Fabricio Oberto, spends all of his offensive possessions in the post being guarded by the other team's center and spends all of his time on D defending the paint while guarding the opponent's center -- a job description that sounds suspiciously like that of a center.

Nonetheless, when Duncan was listed as a center on this year's All-Star ballot, it was a big controversy. Obviously, part of it stemmed from the possibility that he'd lose out to Yao Ming for a starting spot, whereas at forward he's been selected a starter for eight straight years. But it also hinted at something deeper.

Several of the media members who made the ballot said the problem was coming up with 12 centers from each conference who deserved to be on the ballot. But I'll tell you what a bigger problem was: coming up with 12 players from each conference who want to be thought of as centers, and whom the media will accept as centers.

It's a double-edged sword. Some players find the definition of a center limiting, either because it defines them as solely interior players who aren't qualified to dribble or shoot, or because it suggests they're the team's unusually tall circus freak (many players also feel this way about being listed as 7-feet tall, which is why you see a lot more 6-11s than 7-0s on your roster sheet).

Additionally, some writers seem to have subconsciously adopted Shaquille O'Neal and Eddy Curry as their standard for what a center should look like; anyone smaller, then, appears undersized. But Shaq is the biggest dude the league has ever seen, and even players in Curry's size class have always been extremely rare.

Combine those two trends, and it's easy to see why an unusual number of players are listed as forwards or forward-centers when in reality they're pretty much full-time centers. Duncan is one, but there are hordes of others. Jermaine O'Neal, Nene, Emeka Okafor, Antonio McDyess, Al Jefferson, Anderson Varejao -- all these players have been listed as forwards in recent years even as their jobs became overwhelmingly center-like. And that doesn't include the face-up players who have seen action at center, such as Amare Stoudemire, Rasheed Wallace and Marcus Camby.

Some would argue that this is part of the problem -- that back in the days of yore, these guys would have been playing power forward, and that only the lack of "true" centers forces them to play the middle now.

But look around, it's the old school, back-to-the-basket centers and traditional shot-blockers who comprise nearly all the good young players at the position. In addition to Howard, that list includes Jefferson, Okafor, Nene, Chris Kaman, Curry, Andrew Bynum, Tyson Chandler, Andrew Bogut and Andris Biedrins.

Which one of these guys doesn't meet your definition of a center? For the most part they do what centers do: They block shots, rebound, play in the paint and rarely stray out to the perimeter. They're also all 25 or younger.

They're good, too. Howard is already an All-Star, and you can imagine every other player on that list joining him at some point. Chandler, Biedrins, Howard and Bynum all are shooting better than 60 percent, while Howard, Kaman, Jefferson and Chandler are four of the league's top five rebounders.

And then there's perhaps the best young center of them all, Stoudemire. Yes, maybe he's more legitimately considered a power forward than some other players on this list. But in Phoenix's system, he's a devastatingly effective "five" who ranks third in the league in PER. Besides, is it really so outlandish to describe a 6-10, 245-pound guy as a center?

It's not just the young guys, either. What's great about the current gang of centers is that we have two different eras colliding, because while all these younger players are coming up, the old guard remains active.

Shaq is diminished but still playing and, when healthy, producing. Alonzo Mourning, Ben Wallace and Dikembe Mutombo -- three of the greatest defensive players of all time -- are still active. There's Camby, the league's reigning Defensive Player of the Year, and three other centers who have made multiple All-Star teams and remain effective -- Jermaine O'Neal, Cleveland's Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Sacramento's Brad Miller.

Is this the greatest batch of centers ever? I'm not sure I'd go that far. For one thing, the group in their primes (ages 26 to 30) isn't much to look at -- other than Yao, Samuel Dalembert and Brendan Haywood are the best of the bunch. So at best, we probably need to wait a few years for the younger generation to hit their peaks.

Additionally, they have some stiff competition. The three year span from 1992 to 1994 was a true golden age, one which featured peak or near-peak years of six likely Hall of Famers (Shaq, Mourning, Mutombo, David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon and Patrick Ewing) as well as several quality second-tier guys (Vlade Divac, Brad Daugherty, Rik Smits, Rony Seikaly, Pervis Ellison, Kevin Willis), plus the decline phases of a couple more Hall of Famers (Moses Malone, Robert Parish).

But when viewed in hindsight, I'm not sure the current gang will be too far away. Duncan is already an all-timer, and Yao, Howard, and Stoudemire certainly appear to be on a Hall of Fame trajectory. Throw in the huge number of quality young centers and the fact that Greg Oden has yet to play an NBA game, and I'd say the center position is as strong as it's looked in a long time.

Which makes me wonder if the problem isn't a lack of centers at all … but rather a lack of people willing to be called centers.

BacktoBasics
01-10-2008, 05:51 PM
I don't care what they call the position so long as someone can dominate the post offensive or defensively or both if you're lucky.

duncan228
01-10-2008, 05:58 PM
I don't care what they call the position so long as someone can dominate the post offensive or defensively or both if you're lucky.

The Spurs have been very lucky. :)

Duncan can dominate both ends, it's one of the reasons I consider him the best in the league.
Dominating on one end won't always win it. Dominating on both will win it more often than not.

FromWayDowntown
01-10-2008, 06:01 PM
Someone said Dwight Howard is good -- an All-Star, even -- and that he might be headed to the Hall of Fame? What a dope! [/jeffdrums]

Obstructed_View
01-10-2008, 06:04 PM
The Spurs' defensive system thrives with Duncan and a traditional center. The reason some of us don't want to refer to him as a center is too much of that talk might convince Pop to start Horry and/or Finley alongside him again.

Shit.

The Truth #6
01-10-2008, 06:08 PM
I don't buy this article. Most of the "centers" he mentions suck compared to the players from the late 80s/early 90s. To have to mention Ilgauskaus and Brad Miller to support his argument negates his article.

Also, players now face the basket much more than in the past. The game has changed.

Hollinger is just looking for an angle, and it's a weak one.

duncan228
01-10-2008, 06:09 PM
Someone said Dwight Howard is good -- an All-Star, even -- and that he might be headed to the Hall of Fame? What a dope! [/jeffdrums]

:lol

He'll get here...

JamStone
01-10-2008, 06:16 PM
Antonio McDyess, a generously listed 6-foot-9 guy who shoots midrange jumpers all game long ... center.

Anderson Varejao, a guy who has no post-moves and can't block shots ... center.


And, I've read discussions about this before, but are Alonzo Mourning and Dikembe Mutombo really likely to be in the Hall of Fame?

rAm
01-10-2008, 06:17 PM
good article

duncan228
01-10-2008, 06:33 PM
Also from ESPN, a poll about centers.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/polling?event_id=3320

Vote: What makes a good center?
SportsNation

Tim Duncan and Marcus Camby are both competing for a spot on the All-Star team.

It's easy to spot an NBA center. In a court full of people who are considered undersized if they're six feet or smaller, he's the tall one.
But what makes a center? Tim Duncan has been characterized as a center, but does he play like a true one? Is he more of a hybrid?

The centers listed as candidates for this year's All-Star teams differ wildly in their styles and skills. Rebounding is certainly a priority, but would you sacrifice the ability to score for that? What about the defensive ability to swat away shots?

It could be that it depends on the individual player, but whose style do you prefer? Cast your vote now!

This is the poll with the results so far:

1) Is Tim Duncan a true center?

59.2% No

40.8% Yes

2) Who should start at center for the Western Conference in the All-Star Game?

38.0% Amare Stoudemire

27.3% Yao Ming

26.9% Tim Duncan

7.9% Marcus Camby

3) Who should start at center for the Eastern Conference in the All-Star Game?

81.5% Dwight Howard

14.8% Kevin Garnett

2.1% Rasheed Wallace

1.5% Jermaine O'Neal

4) What is the most important skill for a center?

52.6% Rebounding

36.7% Shot-blocking

9.1% Scoring

1.7% Passing

5) Who is the best center under the age of 25 in the NBA?

65.4% Dwight Howard

25.3% Andris Biedrins

7.0% Andrew Bynum

2.2% Al Jefferson

BonnerDynasty
01-10-2008, 08:17 PM
Hinted at something deeper.

No shit genius. The All-Star game is a joke, yet is still coveted as something with substance for some strange pathetic American reason. Thus, the reason you have to change his listing back to forward is because millions of Chinese control your voting process lmao. It's nothing "deeper" than that. We all know he is a center. We all know he is better than Yao. Decisions, decisions.

timmy21_4rings
01-10-2008, 09:23 PM
Hollinger is a joker.....I am willing to bet that he has failed at least once in High School Math and Statistics.

m33p0
01-10-2008, 10:52 PM
hakeem, kareem, moses malone, david robinson, prime shaq>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>all current centers

greyforest
01-10-2008, 11:17 PM
why all the dwight howard hate?

hes fucking ridiculous and i wish i could watch more orlando games just to see him play